From: Vern Raburn
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 6:57 AM
To: _All Employees
Subject: Farewell
Dear Fellow Eclipsers:
It is with a very heavy heart and disappointment that I must send you this letter today. Effective immediately I will be stepping down as President and CEO and our Chairman, Roel Pieper, will become Acting CEO. As you can imagine, this development came as quite a surprise to me and it saddens me more then I can tell you to have to leave Eclipse. I think you know that I am no quitter. But I have not had any choice but to accept the terms of an agreement that provides Eclipse the first funds in a new round of financing that will take the company to a cash flow positive position. My departure was required under the terms of the agreement that was made with the debt investors to clear the way to secure the new funds.
I still very much believe in the dream that is Eclipse Aviation. I founded this company with a very big vision--to create a whole new category of aircraft with new technology. The idea is to create new markets and ultimately a new form of air transportation. This company and the people who built it with me are doing just that. Time and again, we overcame the many challenges that confronted us. Today we have delivered more than 230 Eclipse 500s and our next aircraft, the Eclipse 400 has been launched and is in development. This company did what the industry thought was impossible. I am extremely proud of what we have accomplished and created.
To be successful going forward, we have to focus on operational excellence. We must achieve the product development, production and operations goals that we have committed to.
Today marks the beginning of a new phase of growth for the company and new leadership to go with it. Roel is a veteran executive and an extremely competent leader. He has been committed to this vision since 2003 when his company, ETIRC Aviation became our Eastern European partner. Today, after investing in the company and becoming our Western European partner as well, Roel is deeply involved with Eclipse and I am confident he will help grow the company and provide it with the operational excellence required to move forward. I will assume the Vice Chairmanship of ETIRC Aviation and provide counsel to Roel in the global expansion of this effort.
Thank you all for your commitment, dedication and enthusiasm in building this company. It is something we can all be very proud of. And I’ll be with you in spirit as you continue to prove that we can change the world of aviation.
Sincerely,
Vern
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572 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 572 of 572We need a new thread. Suggest the title be "Prediction of the bankruptcy filing date."
"Eclise Aviation Corporation today announced a lottery/raffle for a fully (well, mostly) equiped FPJ-500. For $25,000 each contestant will be allowed to predict the date on which EAC will file, or have filed involuntarily, a bankruptcy."
"The winner shall receive at some unknown date in the future, a FPJ-500 or Frenkenjet-400 at the companies' discretion"
Wow, am I the only person shocked that this company was able to secure 107 deposits despite all the evidence available that this is a complete shot in the dark and that their days are very likely numbered. Unbelievable!
How the hell does this happen?
Wow, am I the only person shocked that this company was able to secure 107 deposits despite all the evidence available that this is a complete shot in the dark and that their days are very likely numbered. Unbelievable!
How the hell does this happen?
It is my speculation that these are mostly vapor orders from the likes of ETIRC, DayJet, etc. DayJet said almost 100 of their orders came from existing customers, so there's only so many groups that could be.
GettingReady, you is one funny guy.
I think the final nail just got hammered into the coffin. Did nobody but me click on John's link? Did you see? It's our bestest Eklipski cheerleader putting his 'speculation' on the market. None other that our South Afrikener dentist friend. Gee, I guess with the Vernimeister gone, there's no point in living....
Did nobody but me click on John's link? Did you see? It's our bestest Eklipski cheerleader putting his 'speculation' on the market. None other that our South Afrikener dentist friend.
Also note it is S/N 755 that will supposedly be delivered 2Q 2009. I don't think Eclipse will produce 500 in the span of a year from now.
Good Grief!
The old “gadfly” lies down for an hour, nursing a broken tooth, wakes up to answer a call . . . checks the “blog”, and we’re in a brand new world . . . Eclipse is flying upside down, the dentist is dumping his “vunder jet”. What happened? Did global warming become a reality? Are the polar bears extinct?. . . is Al Gore the emperor? . . . what gives?
‘Leave you guys unsupervised for five minutes and the world goes nuts.
gadfly
(‘Come Monday, I’ll get my tooth glued back together, get a new one ordered, and check with my dentist about the rest of all this . . . if he doesn’t know, no one knows.)
(The guy from South Africa is trying to sell his jet? . . . really? You have got to be kidding . . . but the picture of the with the lady does look real! Chester, California? . . . nobody would make that one up!)
Shane
Yes, I know it's midnight in Ireland, but you need to wake up . . . your blogsite has gone bananas . . . yeh, really . . . the whole thing is going to pieces . . . yeh, even the dentist guy . . . and who knows what. And no, Shane, you are not just having a nightmare . . . 'take that back . . . on second thought, dream on, my friend, dream on . . . tomorrow morning is soon enought to deal with the mess!
Ken, say it isn't so Ken.
Now that you have had some time to live with your first Eclipse you are letting the 2nd one go - or are you taking a pass on the only one?
Man, even the faithful are losing faith.
gadfly,
Like any good death spiral, the highest rpm occurs at the end. I suspect that's just about where we are.
Im getting my laugh-jacket prepared for the Tuesday conference call. The Q-A portion should be hysterical.
GR2FS out.
"but the picture of the with the lady does look real! Chester, California? "
If you look closely at the panel photo, the N number shown is N85SM, registered to the Shari Meyer Trust with an AZ address. My guess is that the sn 755 position that is for sale is the second jet that Ken often bragged about. The language in the listing continues to reflect Ken's unbridled optimism re Eclipse.
tpt
For everyone that has been on a cruzeboat, we all know the safety drill that is mandatory on the first day. The crew tries to bestow a confidence and a "in the event of emergency, please remain calm" attitude.
Well, can you imagine in the heat of battle, engine room on fire, electrical systems exploding, waves breaking over the shiprail by 30 feet and over the loudspeaker you hear "Everyone remain calm. Single file to the lifeboats. No pushing or shoving please"
You think anyone will remain calm? Give me a break. The legal situation at EAC is going to become a free-4-all in short order. Mark my words.
GR2FS out.
"The legal situation at EAC is going to become a free-4-all in short order. "
GR2FS,
Inquiring minds want to know! Hope you will post whatever you learn about this.
tpt
FWIW, Dr. Ken's position has been on Controller for nearly a month now. I think he offically posted around July 4th IIRC.
To my friend 'Braveheart' Gadfly.
I'm always watching.
To the rest of you, stay awake! There is some real news a' comin...
Shane
PS, for a Scottish lad, he's not too bad.
“Getting Ready”
We’ve got some popcorn, and can put some chairs on the roof . . . ‘hopefully, we’re a safe distance just a bit northeast . . . should we plan to go up about sundown? . . . fireworks always look best about then.
gadfly
(Shane . . . it take’s a Scot to play the pipes properly! Now, go back to sleep and get your rest . . . you'll need it!)
Shane
Ye meant it as a compliment, me lad, I know, but “Braveheart” was that other Scot . . . not Robert de Bruce . . . and I’ll let it pass this time.
gadfly
(Remember the spider in the cave.)
"If you look closely at the panel photo, the N number shown is N85SM,"
Also shown in the same panel photo are what appear to be two Garmin 430's, not 400's, and no keyboards. Did Ken get some special treatment or is this Photoshop at work?
tpt
There's a link at the bottom of the listing to send 'Kenneth Meyer' a message. What say we all send him an invite back to the blog? I know I surely do miss him. Maybe he'll come back and 'be amused'.
Does one get the impression that we’re now examining who designed the trim on the deck furniture? . . . and how long the “cushions” will work as flotation gear?
gadfly
(Eclipse Aviation . . . a division of “White Star Line” . . . Commodore Edward John Smith at your service!) (Quote (sort of): "I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a “very light jet” to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this “aircraft”. Modern “aircraft manufacturing” has gone beyond that . . .") (“Poetic license” taken to the extreme, from statements in 1907 . . . a century ago . . . apologies of the gadfly, but I just couldn’t resist the temptation.)
423 comments in 3 days? WoW! Is this a record? I logged on because I was so fired up...but have ya ever had so much to say, that you just cant say anything right now? Im speechless. Vern, Roel, Peg, Suppliers, Customers, Lawsuits, BK, ethics, unknown, accidents. HOLY CRAP! I guess I just wouldnt know where to start.
Forgot to mention the deals they have with State on NM and who EAC HAS TO hire in my list of rants....
In the late 80's F1 cars started using fly by wire throttle setup's ....... I have never heard of a single stuck / out of range throttle incident. But then again, PEOPLE'S LIVES ARE AT STAKE! They have positive adjustable stops for both max and min. The engineers take responsibility and pride in their work and know it must be dependable and used over and over thousands of times in a few hours. I doubt very much if they say "don't step on the throttle to hard, it might lock on WOT and you'll crash".
The excuse the electric guy didn't know the mechanical guy don't go anywhere with me. It's an amature mistake and opens the door to how many other's.
"Forgot to mention "
Another biggie: the pending FAA review(s)
planet truth, that went along with "accidents"
The excuse the electric guy didn't know the mechanical guy don't go anywhere with me. It's an amature mistake and opens the door to how many other's.
It wasn't a mistake at all. Eclipse treats this all like MS Flight Simulator. Whatever toy throttles work on them is just fine. Afterall, it's much cheaper that way to treat this like MS Flight Simulator than to treat an actual aircraft as an aircraft. Eclipse had to hit their specs, so if it meant discarding safety equipment and going with flimsy primary equipment, oh well.
ASM said .... How about the AD notes on the Southwest 737 fuselage skins? If you can't read an AD note and comply then get out of the business.
Yep, you and the FAA are right.
Reading the AD exactly like the FAA manager du-jur wants and forcing spectacular unecessary passenger disruption is more important than operating the now largest airline in the world (by number of passengers flown) for several decades without a single on board fatality.
Southwest nows nothing about operating an airline safely. FAA bureucrats seeing media attention to placate congress are the ones that keep Southwest fliers safe.
Oh, and it was the FAA inspectors that found the AD compliance, right? NOT!!! It was WN's own internal controls that found it and alerted the FAA voluntarily.
I hope you don't rely on the FAA check ride and writen test to make sure you are a safe pilot or the FAA medical to make sure you are in good health.
For those of you who like to keep track of these things, unless I am mistaken, this is the second "VLJ" accident. The first being, of course, the Cessna Mustang that went off the runway at McClellan-Palomar Airport in April.
http://discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?t=5469
Thank god no injuries on either and I am told that the Mustang, while initially thought to be a total loss is being repared. I initially thought, based on the first photo that the Eclipse would be a total hull loss, but am now having second thoughts.
If anyone has a clear shot of the accident Ecipse as it is removed, please post.
McConnel said, "I would say we have an extraordinarily safe jet and our safety record speaks for itself."
After the June incident in Chicago, the National Transportation Safety Board grounded Eclipse planes until throttle inspections were made.
According to the NTSB database, there have only been three incidents since Eclipse delivered its first Eclipse 500.
The most recent ending in Pennsylvania.
McConnel said, "It's a very isolated incident. We have over 25,000 flight hours and over 230 aircraft delivered. I think we've proven we have a very safe and great airplane."
http://www.koat.com/news/17068250/detail.html
Baron,
Still wondering - did you get NfG installed? Are you in the now halted queue? Have you reserved your seat in one of the highly coveted FPJ lifeboats? Remember - no pushing or shoving, please.
“. . . this is the second “VLJ” accident”.
Thinking back of earlier incidents, and a long list of reported problems, but for the skill of the flight crews, this might have been the one-hundred-twenty-second “VLJ” accident . . . give or take.
As you imply, the list is short . . . but not because of the expertise of the designers and management back in ABQ.
Sooner or later, the list will no longer be “short”, and may include zippered black bags present in pictures of the “crash scene”. And therein lies the problem. So far we give credit to the flight crews . . . when the shortcomings of the jet make evening news, who then will get the credit?
gadfly
(And if a piece of “fairing” hits some unsuspecting farmer in the middle of Iowa, or a pedestrian in the Quad Cities area, will it be blamed on pilot error?)
Channel 7 (KOAT-TV) news just this moment said this was the third incident, and the phone interview with McConnell (sp?) gave a glowing report to the natives of ABQ of the safety of the jet with 25,000 hours . . . amazing!
Dear Bagholder:
Eclise Aviation held its annual customer breakfast this morning at EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh, Wis. During the presentations, Verminator's departure and the plans for the remainder of 2008 were discussed with the customers in attendance.
Ronald McDonald offered an overview of the four main areas of focus for the second half of 2008: Financial health, the fleet's continued airworthiness, Avio NfG 93.7, and EASA certification.
As an alternative to those seeking legal advice on the return of their deposits, Elipse Aviation is offering the following: With an additional immediate payment of $40,000 payable by wire or certified funds to Elipse, the deposit holder is guaranteed to be moved to the front of the deposit return queue. While Elipse cannot guarantee that any deposits will ever be returned, the additional $40,000 will give you a bag with two handles and an increased tax loss deduction.
In addition, Elipse will hold a conference call with bagholders on Tuesday, August 15, 2008. The call will include an introduction from acting CEO Roel Pied-Piper, an update on the bankruptcy plan, and a question and answer session. The one-hour call will begin 13:00 a.m. Valley Time. Bagholders in the United States and Canada can dial 888-555-3224. International customers can dial 706-555-9405. The conference code for Tuesday's call is # 911911911. An e-mail reminder will be sent to all bagholders on Monday.
Sincerely,
The Hamburgler
Vice President of Customer Neglect
Eclise Aviation
Hamburglar
Does that come with the happy meal?
gadfly
Day Jet Utilization
Dropped a bit this week. Jacksonville and KSRQ usage is dropping. Craft 134 and 136 are doing training loops in Gainesville. A new pilot cohort?, as the 10+ hour craft are at 6 (down from 8 in earlier weeks)
craft .. July 26-Aug 1
139 .. 22:28
141 .. 18:33
161 .. 15:22
152 .. 13:21
145 .. 11:35
142 .. 10:35
156 .. 5:36
148 .. 2:31
163 .. 2:26
153 .. 2:09
134 .. 0:58
136 .. 0:30
109 ..
110 ..
115 ..
116 ..
119 ..
126 ..
130 ..
131 ..
132 ..
135 ..
146 ..
147 ..
150 ..
158 ..
160 ..
162 ..
Total .. 106:04
Field .. July 26-Aug 1
KBCT .. 21:19
KGNV .. 16:15
KAPF .. 6:21
KTLH .. 5:08
KJZI .. 4:06
KGSP .. 3:39
KPNS .. 3:27
KOPF .. 3:26
KJAX .. 3:11
KORL .. 3:06
KMGM .. 3:03
KMAC .. 3:02
KHXD .. 2:15
KSAV .. 2:07
KPIE .. 2:07
KSRQ .. 2:00
KOCF .. 2:00
KDTS .. 1:49
KLAL .. 1:48
KJAN .. 1:47
KCSG .. 1:41
KCGF .. 1:31
KRYY .. 1:30
KVLD .. 1:19
KBHM .. 1:15
KFPR .. 1:12
KTMB .. 1:07
KLEE .. 1:06
KMLB .. 0:58
KDHN .. 0:50
KISM .. 0:42
KAND .. 0:30
MYGF .. 0:24
KPBI .. 0:03
..
Total .. 106:04
John
Please keep us informed when the extra passengers, Plecia nearctica, board the little jet in August-September. Floridians know them by various names . . . most commonly, "Lovebugs", as they usually fly "United", but will probably also go by "Dayjet".
Since they gum up the works "en masse", and are highly acidic, I have long wondered the effect that these millions of insects will have on our favorite little jet . . . especially in cracks and crevices and in the "stir fried" areas. And, of course, on the windscreen, and pitot tube inlet.
gadfly
(To those who have never driven a car in Florida in late Spring or late Summer, you have not missed a thing. And don't ever drive a motorcycle with your mouth open.)
We are taught that recycling is a good thing. Permit me to repeat a post from June 2007; it remains fairly topical:
Dateline: April, 2019
Publisher: Albuquerque Journal
Subject: Where Are They Now?
On the twentieth anniversary of the launch of the Eclipse 500 Jet, the aviation writer of this newspaper has conducted a retrospective in this interesting aircraft and the company that ‘produced’ it. Few of the participants could be located and even fewer would comment for publication. An extraordinary resource developed however. Using a powerful computer tool, the writer has conducted a thorough search of the old Internet and located the ‘website’ called Eclipse Aviation Critic. A sole ‘poster’ remains active and through him we found the whereabouts of some of the players.
Vern Raburn, former president of the company, now plays piano in the lounge of the Holiday Inn in Las Cruces, New Mexico. Reached by phone he said, “Yeah, I miss the old days at Eclipse Aircraft. We had a good run. I like the creative uses that some of the aircraft have found. The Eclipse low-riders up in Espanola are really neat.
Vern sighed and then said, “Many of us had to find jobs outside the aviation industry and I like it here at the Lamplighter Lounge. Jim Bede stops by occasionally and we talk about old times. He’s got a great singing voice.”
Peg Bilson, former chief operating officer, is hostess at the International House of Pancakes in Pawtucket, Rhode Island. After repeated tries she returned our call, “Yes, it’s the same Peg Bilson. You know I had a bright future in aviation but I always knew that my Embry-Riddle education would also prepare me for a career in the food services industry. You know we have the best blueberry pancakes in northeastern Rhode Island.”
Ken Meyer, a former depositor, was introspective. “It was a real education to see the Very Light Jet fad buildup and then diminish. Through it all, I’ve kept my now-forty-year-old Cessna piston twin. And now I’ve put a deposit on a really exciting new development – The RAM XXVI Conversion. My liquid cooled engines are being replaced by motors incorporating a heavy water cooling jacket and palladium pistons. You know Pons and Fleischmann had it right with Cold Fusion in 1989. My Cessna 340 is really gonna go now.
”Few of the other ‘bloggers’ could be located. Only one appeared to have done well with new aviation concepts. A man using the handle, ‘gadfly’, has operated his Moeller Skycar for five years now. Reached by email, he said that he was working on a new ‘STC’, which stands for Submarine Type Certificate. “It’s going to be the first truly multimode vehicle on the planet,” he wrote.
The most notable of those involved in the Eclipse story is former President Bill Richardson. He operated the sole flying example of the type. “I wanted it to be called Air Force One when I was using it,” President Richardson said. “But the best radio call I could get was Air Force Zero Point One. We took all the seats out except two – one in front and one in back for my, well… rotund figure.”
The whereabouts of Stan Blankenship, the founder of the website, is unknown. He was in a work release program while incarcerated at a minimum security facility. While picking up trash along the Interstate, he inexplicably fell back behind the van, took off his orange vest, dropped it and slipped into the woods.
Another 'blogger', the Black Tulip, was recently released based on new DNA evidence. He is thought to be living in a cheap motel near Cleveland, much like a character in the Willy Nelson song, “Pancho and Lefty.”
GettingReady2FileSuit said...
Baron,
Still wondering - did you get NfG installed?
Why the heck would I remove a perfectly functioning Garmin stack from my Baron to instal Avio NG?
I could see going the other way around, though ;)
I'm extremelly tempted to start a company to do G-1000 SVS retrofits to Eclipses, Old TBMs, PC12s, older Citations, etc. Unfortunately it has been done already for older King Airs (bummer, that was the largest market of them all).
If I can get the current EA500 depositors/owners to each wire me $200K and wait 2 years, I can get going. I think a G-1000-SVS equipped Eclipse would be one cool plane.
KOAT TV story on the ECLIPSE CRASH.
Now ALL THE LOCALS IN ABQ KNOW!
http://www.koat.com/video/17068541/index.html
GRTF said: Have you reserved your seat in one of the highly coveted FPJ lifeboats?
Have you seen the cabin leakage tests? There is lots about this whole deal that just don't hold water! (pun intended)
"Oh, and it was the FAA inspectors that found the AD compliance, right? NOT!!! It was WN's own internal controls that found it and alerted the FAA voluntarily."
And without the FAA the inspection would never have been done at all.
Southwest management had the screws put to the FAA inspector through the FAA inspector's own manager, who has since been reasigned (he should have been fired). The FAA inspector had his job threatened and the job of his wife threatened. It is a very black mark on Southwest to play that kind of horses%#t.
From the NAA website:
"Eclipse Aviation Corporation has won the 2005 Robert J. Collier Trophy "for the greatest achievement in aeronautics or astronautics in America.”
Right.
Here's an old article showing the Collier Trophy for Eclipse was a scam:
https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/briefs/191611-1.html
I'm not real good at interpreting some of this , but we may need to start chilling the wine and beer..
http://www.nmcourts.gov/caselookup/app?component=cnLink&page=SearchResults&service=direct&session=T&sp=SD-202-CV-200802624
Dave,
I agree. It sure takes away form the G5, F22, B2, and all the REAL aircraft that actually earned it
On Monday morning, when I did this headline post, I said the following:-
1. I hope this means the depositors get their money back soon....
2. I hope this means EAC stop chasing people through the courts for expressing their opinions.
3. I hope Vern finds something he is good at, in his next job.
But these are hopes, not expectations.
Shane
July 28, 2008 6:30 AM
Well, it seems I was wrong, in at least one case...
Working up the 'Top Ten Shortcomings' list. You guys (and girls) are very clever people and actually getting the order right is proving quite hard. But I will 'headline' it over the next few days.
Unless, that is, something else happens to catch my attention.
Shane
"WHEN GLASS COCKPITS GO BLACK
Last week the NTSB announced massive display failures on Airbus aircraft. There were 49 failures on Airbus 319 and 320 aircraft, including seven incidents in which all six screens failed simultaneously. Didn't think that was possible? Neither did the manufacturer, the FAA, or the NTSB. As light GA manufacturers rush into glass cockpits, is it unseemly to ask what assurance we have that there will not be a catastrophic failure or at least a significant failure in our less robust systems? Read more in AOPA Air Safety Foundation Executive Director Bruce Landsberg's latest blog."
We stopped in Portland Maine on our sail and found WiFi to catch up- wow what a lot happened.
The quote above is almost off topic but reminded me of the BS from the faithful of how the Avio could never black out- and a real company like Airbus has had 49! I hope the first one is a 135 optioned aircraft.
Turboprop_pilot
b95
#If I can get the current EA500 depositors/owners to each wire me $200K and wait 2 years, I can get going. I think a G-1000-SVS equipped Eclipse would be one cool plane #
what a good joke !
how many of the depositors are where they are because they either wanted to make some profit on a fast re-sale ? how many because they thought it was their only chance to afford a jet ?
so natural question is " how many can burn an other 200K$ ?
A : very few of them ...i let you figure out how many because "the cheap thing starts to be expensive as hell" and the one because "it make no sens to spend more to re-sale for less "
i kind agree : Ea500 if you take out and replace the FSW , Avio, FAdec ,Throttles , parts falling apart , door closing , tyres bursting , windshield ,pitot , etc ...
Fpj could be a cool plane ...
but for economic reason , i believe it is better to buy straight from others firms , than to buy a Fpj and have it transformed into something "cool"
fred,
he was joking.....
(I hope)
atm :
me too ...!
otherwise : brain transplant is not invented yet ...! :-))
what would be the point to buy something less expensive than (let's say) a mustang ...
but at the end to have more bills to cover , more time to wait , less reliability ??
it cannot be anything else than a joke ...
I noticed the Skupa case rescheduled for Aug 12th. Maybe the morons...er higher ups at EAC will has that BS dismissed also. Let's wish him luck
by the way :
i have been talking with someone from european agency ...
i was willing to ask if a sofware fix would be ok for throttles problem
answer : "sounds like trying to empty the sea with a teaspoon !"
clear enough , i think !
"Price is what you pay... Value is what you get." Warren Buffet...
The quote above is almost off topic but reminded me of the BS from the faithful of how the Avio could never black out- and a real company like Airbus has had 49! I hope the first one is a 135 optioned aircraft.
I also presume that the Airbus has backup instruments, while with Eclipse if there's problems with Avio, you're stuck. I think the only mechanical backup Eclipse has is for the landing gear.
he was joking.....
(I hope)
I don't think he was joking - and I would almost be inclined to go along with him, if it wasn't based on a faulty assumption - that the rest of the FPJ is in all other ways suited to airborne operation.
Fix AvioNG by replacing it with G1000, and the little bird still needs anti-skid. And windshields. And weather radar. And throttle quadrants. And FIKI (remember that the still-hypothetical FIKI cert is contingent on the not-yet-certified AvioNG software). And pitot-static reliability. The list goes on & on...
Nobody knows how well stirfry welding holds up after two years of airtaxi use in a saline environment (Dayjet) - while the behavior of riveted aerostructures (and inspection requirements) is pretty well understood.
So Baron's potential customers would be confronted with a pre-purchase decision: do I want a DOA FPJ?, or a DOA FPJ with a really nice, fully-functional panel?
IANAL
Fix AvioNG by replacing it with G1000, and the little bird still needs anti-skid. And windshields. And weather radar. And throttle quadrants. And FIKI (remember that the still-hypothetical FIKI cert is contingent on the not-yet-certified AvioNG software). And pitot-static reliability. The list goes on & on...
So the Eclipse FIKI certification was based on the INOP Avio?...Like how the certified simulators were for INOP Avio?
"I think the only mechanical backup Eclipse has is for the landing gear."
That would be the belly skin.
...backup for the brakes seems to be treesNG
D.ivedorne
better question for potential :
am i insane enough to put 2M$ on something i have to wait for , not sure i will get it , and even if i get it , i will have to spend a fortune to make it safe and complete ...?
it is a trap ! it is like nuclear war : the only one way to win is NOT to play !
dave :
yes one of the things bit smelly : each time you find something it brings more questions than putting answer ...
Eclipso said:
"I'm not real good at interpreting some of this , but we may need to start chilling the wine and beer.."
Couldnt get the link to provide useful info- got a query form with search criteria to be filled in. What's the bottom line?
Re EA500 problems: IMHO we are so far just seeing the bow wave of problems. Yes, probably the most serious ones, but as no airframe likley has more than a couple hundred hours on it, issues that only surface with significant flight time or calendar time mostly still lie ahead. The Fat Lady may be singing, but the song goes on and on!
tpt
tpt -
This might help:
Case dismissed
IANAL
"That would be the belly skin."
EAC seems to have anticipated this, offering "Lower Fuselage Skid Pads" as an option for, they say, "the unlikely event of a wheels up landing." (See the acft configurator on their website for details.)
GettingReady indicated that some folks will not be receiving requested deposits back (return date uncertain) but will be receiving 6% interest. It has been speculated that 100-200 depositors may be requesting refunds.
Roel has stated publicly that the company is being packaged for an IPO. And we all know the infamous order book is critical to the IPO.
Question:
1) How many of you think the "refund requested orders" will continue to be counted in the order book?
2) How many of you think they will be removed from the order book only when a check is actually sent to the customer?
3) How many of you think they are being removed from the order book when the deposit refund request is officially received (paperwork in order for refund)?
If 1 and 2 above are occurring one word comes to mind .... fraud.
Anyone know how the refund requests are handled in the order book? Inquiring minds want to know.
Hey Guys,
My sense is that we've sufficiently danced on their grave. The mystery is over: Eclipse won't survive as a company nor an aircraft. Rather than another 400 messages of "I told you so" dribble, why not focus on turning this blog into a more useful expenditure of words and energy? For example, there seem to be a lot of people who know something about VLJ's, so why not a blog that promotes a better industry direction. Personally I'm getting sick of reading all this self-anointing chatter from people who don't have a vested interest in the company (other than to be an arm chair quarterback).
"Lower Fuselage Skid Pads"
Belly Skin NG
IANAL
"Personally I'm getting sick of reading all this self-anointing chatter from people who don't have a vested interest in the company (other than to be an arm chair quarterback)."
No one is requiring you to read this. Lead the way with some posts in the direction you want this to take, or tune out.
"Anyone know how the refund requests are handled in the order book? "
Assuming that an IPO is done in the U.S. and is managed by an underwriter(s) of consequence, the order book will be scrubbed very carefully as part of the underwriter's due diligence. Either ALL questionable orders will be removed from the stated backlog, or there will be volumes of footnotes. IMHO, with all that has come to light recently, a conventional IPO in the U.S. is unlikely in the extreme.
tpt
Personally I'm getting sick of reading all this self-anointing chatter from people who don't have a vested interest in the company (other than to be an arm chair quarterback).
Then don't read it.
Personally, though I agree that some of the material focuses on irrelevancies, as a grownup I'm capable of filtering it out. And furthermore, bashing on the legacy of Emperor Vernicus Rex the Flambouyant is fun.
With dismissal of the Blogger case, Roel Pieper is displaying some symptoms of business sanity. It remains to be seen whether or not that is due to actual sanity. He has a very difficult task ahead of him, and I hope he succeeds at it. But he will have to freely accept deep scrutiny of his actions & intentions (both present and past) in order to have a prayer of doing so.
IANAL
Wow, all of a sudden, in depth Eclipse reviews are all over the aviation press.
AOPA Pilot August issue has a 10 page report and the Eclipse on the cover with the caption "Eclipse 500: Moving into Prime Time. Lots of info in there, including the Eclipse estimate of $35-40M to complete the retrofits to ETT/NG1.6/FIKI on the entire fleet. They mention all the problems from tires to lack of aviation functionality. Test flight showed performance better than book (10 KTS faster).
Aviation Consumer (the only publication I trully respect when it comes to reviewing aviation products) has an August report that starts lie this...
http://www.aviationconsumer.com/issues/38_8/industrynews/5805-1.html
"Eclipse 500: Still a Work in Progress
Vern Rayburn announced at Oshkosh in 1998 that a new little airplane would change all the rules about flying and, especially, about building airplanes. The Eclipse 500 was to define a new class called the VLJ or very light jet. It was to be fuel efficient, fast and would embrace the latest technologies so it could be built inexpensively. It would also be easier and cheaper to fly than a light twin. A full decade and a billion-plus in developmental dollars later, the Eclipse 500 is trickling if not pouring off the production line in Albuquerque; about 200 have been built. The overarching question is: Does the Eclipse really change the rules? And if it doesn’t, why not? Further, what’s the thing like to fly? Is the cutting-edge glass cockpit really as advanced as Eclipse said it would be? Answering these questions isn’t easy. Eclipse has steadfastly refused to offer press demonstrations of the airplane and some owners just won’t talk about their impressions of the airplane, giving the inquisitive person the notion that something’s not quite right here. For this report, a cooperative owner allowed us a brief turn at the controls of an Eclipse 500 so we could find out for ourselves."
You guys should really read these articles - they are full of good info. Unfortunately, I don't have links on line for free access.
Rather than another 400 messages of "I told you so" dribble, why not focus on turning this blog into a more useful expenditure of words and energy? For example, there seem to be a lot of people who know something about VLJ's, so why not a blog that promotes a better industry direction. Personally I'm getting sick of reading all this self-anointing chatter from people who don't have a vested interest in the company (other than to be an arm chair quarterback).
Last time I check you didn't have a vested interested in this blog, such as being one named in the blogger lawsuit or paying for lawyers for the lawsuit. That being said, this blog is open to anyone, not just those with "vested interest" in anything and if you don't like the make-up the posts, the best way to cure it is to do something about it by making posts of your own. If you don't like what the next 400 posts say and you didn't contribute any of those 400 posts, you have only yourself to blame. By the way, what is stopping you from creating your blog so that way you don't have to armchair quaterback the likes of Stan and Shane?
You guys should really read these articles - they are full of good info. Unfortunately, I don't have links on line for free access.
I'd love to, but alas no online free access. You're summaries are good, such as on the cost of one of the retrofits. Also with press demonstrations not offered, the movie business does something like when they know they've got a stinker...when the movie companies have a stinker, they don't offer a movie critic screening prior to general release. Eclipse is taking it even further than that by not offering a screening after release.
"AOPA Pilot August issue has a 10 page report "
Yes, but despite the fact that many of the problems are mentioned, the tone of the article is far too friendly given the number and severity of the issues, IMHO. Could this have anything to do with the full page advertisement by Eclipse elsewhere in the issue? I'd also further question the objectivity of the author if the EA50 type rating he did at Eclipse and reported on in the article was not at the full price, which I would guess to be in the $20K to $25K range.
— Eclipse v. Does dismissed; question about Daniel Asher —
I wrote here in my July 31, 2008 11:46 AM comment: "I've just heard that Eclipse's new management has decided to withdraw the subpoena to Google and voluntarily dismiss its case against the John Does, and that tomorrow's hearing in San Jose will therefore be canceled. However, it will be at least a few more hours before I have any written confirmation of this."
It turns out Eclipse had not only agreed to the dismissal of its case, but a stipulated dismissal order had already been filed, on Wednesday, July 30. I don't have a copy of the order yet, but see my latest post at Eclipse-vs-Does.blogspot.com for a little bit more information.
By the way, are people here familiar with anyone named Daniel Asher? If so, could you tell me in which state (or country) he does business? Last week, he obtained a subpoena in New Mexico for obtaining evidence to be used in some case in another jurisdiction. The case has something to do with Eclipse, but from the New Mexico court website, I can't tell whether (a) the underlying case is between Asher and some other party, and Eclipse is being subpoenaed as a witness; or (b) the underlying case is between Asher and Eclipse, and someone else in New Mexico is being subpoenaed as a witness. See the docket listing for Re: Issuance of Subpoena, No. D-202-CV-2008-07783, New Mexico District Court (filed July 28, 2008).
I believe Dan Asher is the $$$ behind North American Jet at KPWK. Their 135 cert may have a number of FPJ-500s on it.
Meghan said: "....there seem to be a lot of people who know something about VLJ's, so why not a blog that promotes a better industry direction...."
It would be 'off topic' for this particular blog (see title). That said, there is another blog that may be more appropriate for said topic. You can find it at http://vljplanet.com/forums/default.aspx
Thank you for the suggestion.
Meghan,
I suggest you reread the posts on this thread, as well as the content on the myriad other threads and you will find what you seek.
Many of us have skin in the game because we have dedicated our working lives to this industry which is much larger and more important than just Eclipse.
Other participants either have or have had Eclipses on order or may have been vendors, possibly some former employees.
This blog and its' progenitor are chock full of suggestions not only for Eclipse but any would-be VLJ OEM - all that is needed is an open mind.
Why is an AvioNG update required for FIKI cert? I could understand modified boots, heat blankets, or VGs of some sort. Unfortunately, my limited intellectual capacity prevents me from comprehending the need to change the avionics.
anon,
Presumably Avio NfG is responsible for activating/managing the boots - along with changes to the boots/valving themselves as I recall reading.
Anonymous said: Why is an AvioNG update required for FIKI cert?..."
If I understand correctly, there is no independent buttons for de-icing in the panel. It is all done from MFD menus. So you need the software to turn the thing on and off which presumably is coded in AvioNG.
The wonders of integration.
Cold Fish said:
“Many of us have skin in the game because we have dedicated our working lives to this industry which is much larger and more important than just Eclipse”
And not only our “skin”, but our very hearts.
Eclipse started out as a small “benign growth”, but soon became a malignant tumor . . . spreading its influence far beyond its appearance.
Until it is completely excised, it will probably continue to corrupt the entire industry. And at best, it will leave an ugly scar in the historical record of general aviation.
gadfly
(It is most difficult to speak politely about a cancer, at any level.)
Meghan said...
Personally I'm getting sick of reading all this self-anointing chatter from people who don't have a vested interest in the company (other than to be an arm chair quarterback).
Sniff. Smells like Ken/Mirage is back under another new moniker.
"....who don't have a vested interest in the company"
Obviously NOT and airplane person.
At 6:00PM PDT, yesterday, Shane Price wrote:
To the rest of you, stay awake! There is some real news a' comin...
...so I volunteered to stick around for the 'Close' shift. Singularly ill-suited to kitchen clean-up as I am, I ran into difficulties disassembling the McFlurry machine with the result of dropping strainer sections into the rotating augur. When the noise got objectionably loud, I turned off the machine and evaded detection - much to my relief.
My last task before leaving was cleaning the screens on the vent hoods, but forgot to dilute the detergent, which caused second degree burns to develop on my arms.
Still no news from Shane as lights went out and the night-shift manager went home, so I decided to make up for my earlier mishaps by cleaning the entire exhaust vents, since nobody would be around to be in the way of. Remarkably, that went as smoothly as I could have hoped for - but still no news from Shane.
Time to change the oil in the fryers. Open the big ball valves at the bottom, and nothing came out. With the fryers having been turned off for several hours, the oil (which is actually more like fat) had coagulated, so I turned on the heating elements. It wouldn't take much - no, indeed - to get the juices flowing again, and I'll be such a Hero with the day-shift manager that it's worth the extra trouble.
The dirty fryer oil mostly filled three 5-gallon buckets. I could see that the sun was about to rise this morning as it came time to refill the fryer. Dissatisfied with the cleanliness in the bottom reaches of the fryer well, I collected a bunch of cleaning towels, scrupulously managed the detergent-to-water ratio and reached in to wipe the grunge clean - unaware that I had forgotten to turn off the heating elements after draining.
My response to the pain was predictable - I jumped, knocking over the nearest bucket of old fryer oil, and watching in horror as the other two went down like dominos. I didn't even notice the stuff splashing up all over me - or into the fryer, where it hit the now-dangerously-hot element and flashed, with the fireball eventually coming into contact with my oil spill that would make Captain Hazelwood proud.
Fortunately, the floor-bound oil didn't catch fire outright, but merely smoldered and put off a lot of smoke. This gave me the opportunity to get to the fryer's fire extinguisher handle, which I pulled and watched thankfully as it dispensed its full measure of Phostrex into the area - completely extinguishing the conflagration.
Remarkably, I was able to affect a complete and thorough clean-up before the morning shift arrived, so I taped a 'DO NOT USE' sign on the McFlurry machine, and escaped to the parking lot.
Still no news from Shane as I waited for Mom to come pick me up, and I put on a jacket so she couldn't see the harm I had done to my arms. Strange thing - parts started falling off the restaurant as I waited for her arrival, like the lower window-to-wall fairing as well as other stuff I don't know the names of. As we pulled out of the parking lot, the entire building collapsed onto the ground.
So, Shane, my arms are blistered and bleeding, I smell vaguely of French Fries, I need a new job, and I'm extreeeemly tired to boot. Can I go to sleep now?
IANAL
Planetruth,
I didn't know that was on the website, but maybe it would be good to put a step in the AFM..
" In the event of run-away thrust,
1. Raise Landing Gear
2. Aim toward runway/trees
3. Upon contacting "pads" with
ground, UNLATCH partially
locked entry door.
The only orders that count are those that are placed at $2.1 million. There is no future or IPO justification in filling 200 orders at a loss. The only hope for IPO salvation would be in traversing the desert of filling losing orders in order to get to the promised land of profitable future sales. Such a promised land may be a mirage, however, if nobody will actually sign an order with EAC to buy at $2.1m. I suggest that no such orders will materialize until everything works, electronics are G1000 or equivolent and EAC is clearly financially sound. I suppose all that might be possible, but it does not seem likely. Nixing the next 200 losing deliveries through bk would improve the chances.
"so I volunteered to stick around for the 'Close' shift."
A wonderful imagination and WAY too much discretionary time!
"AOPA Pilot August issue has a 10 page report "
Yes, but despite the fact that many of the problems are mentioned, the tone of the article is far too friendly given the number and severity of the issues, IMHO ... I'd also further question the objectivity of the author if the EA50 type rating he did at Eclipse and reported on in the article was not at the full price, which I would guess to be in the $20K to $25K range.
I agree that the tone was a bit to friendly - the 'wonderful' stuff about Eclipse was plastered throughout the article, with the mere sampling of 'bad news' buried so deep I barely noticed it. But they did actually mention some, so I was almost inclined to forgive that bias in the article.
But, no - can't forgive it.
The thing that tipped me over the edge was that instead of using photos of an actual panel (complete with custom INOP stickers) of an actual plane, they used Eclipse's N500EA panel photo, which differs in important ways from reality.
The article was like a slightly moderated Eclipse press release - Haines got suckered.
IANAL
Custom INOP placards and a beanbag mounted handheld GPS - what a joke.
Dave I,
Sorry! It was not my intention to cause sleep loss.
News tomorrow (GMT) morning. Get urgent medical attention, and report for duty thereafter...
Bricklinng,
Such a promised land may be a mirage, however, if nobody will actually sign an order with EAC to buy at $2.1m.
You hit the nail on the head. This company CANNOT get out of the bind of loss making orders without bankrupcy. EAC themselves admit that there is a $30 to $40 MILLION liability in the retrofits already promised. No sane investor will spend that type of money to fulfill the ex CEO's promises.
Some might say that the company CAN get victims, sorry, customers at $2.1 million. Why then are the loads of people prepared to SELL at $1.7 million?
Like a lot of things around EAC, it just don't make sense....
Shane
$40M retrofit liability is about twice as bad as my worst estimate. That suggests that the early bird retrofits (aero-mod AND Avio NfG) is a VERY expensive effort. Might actually top $400-500,000 each.
WOW!!
So, how do we suppose the folks who built up multi-million (or dare I say Billion) dollar business plans based upon the premise of the preemie jet are feeling right about now?
About the delayed retrofit plans?
I think the sharks are just beginning to circle.
shane,
$30m for retrofits. Think about the 200 orders. These must be filled at cash cost of at least $350 million yet the revenue will only be the 40 pct delivery payments, maybe $120 m. So cash is needed of $200m. Where will this come from? BK wipes the problem away.
A few months ago MD Helicopters indicated they wanted to buy a VLJ company. They were sniffing around some small VLJ companies (with great products) ... definitely not Adam or ATG.
However, MD stated privately they wanted to buy out distressed debt. Unfortunately, they don't know VLJs and they'll probably buy into some of the worst products (if they proceed). At that time they stated they did not want to look at Eclipse.
Wonder if that could have changed? I can't believe they'd look at Eclipse now, but who knows?
If MD could get past the idea of buying cast-offs (bad debt/failed products) they could get into the VLJ market and offer stiff competition to Cirrus and Diamond.
Just some rambling thoughts....
Please excuse the conspiracy theory nature of this post in advance, BUT, could the recent events with Vern and Roel and the announcements about refunds, the EA-400 and such have been nothing more than an attempt to cause a 'run on the bank' so to speak to 'force' a white knight reorganization?
If yes, then this is one amazing piece of machiavellian manipulation.
So, how do we suppose the folks who built up multi-million (or dare I say Billion) dollar business plans based upon the premise of the preemie jet are feeling right about now?
About the delayed retrofit plans?
I think the sharks are just beginning to circle.
Should be interesting to see how the politicians respond after spending taxpayers money in spendthrift ways and not being diligent while simultaneously being paid off by Eclipse. Governor Richardson in particular should be interesting along with the mayor of ABQ. These guys didn't do due diligence, but they were diligent in repeatedly cashing in their checks from Eclipse.
To expound on my question:
- Vern is out, Roel is in
- 'new' management makes some seemingly adult decisions
- shortly after OSH 'new' management takes 'drastic measures' due to company being 'in worse shape than thought - layoffs
- announcement that EA-400 may not be produced kills order book
- this forces some customers back to EA-500 - but run on EA-400 deposits plus EA-500 deposits gives 'new' management 'no alternative but to delcare BK to 'save' the company
- vendor liabilities, deposits and retrofit liabilities are wiped away
- 'new' comoany, under new 'new' management emerges to pick up the pieces with 'realistic' price points
What do ya think?
That's the miracle of bankruptcy.
"If MD could get past the idea of buying cast-offs (bad debt/failed products) they could get into the VLJ market and offer stiff competition to Cirrus and Diamond. "
Maybe, but if you look closely at MD's trials over the last few years, you'll likely conclude that they have their hands full surviving themselves. They have apparently made some substantive progress quite recently but are thought by many to still be on life support. Buying a struggling VLJ manufacturer right now would be much like Eclipse announcing the ConJet.
The CEO of MD appears to have some behavioral characteristics in common with Vern. See link for details.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/rotorheads/313704-problems-md-merged-threads-3.html
theplanetruth,
MD Helicopter and Eclipse Aviation...
The two-stone theory of merger/acquisition - if one stone will not float, tie another stone to it. See if two stones will float.
'and what floats on water?'
'very small pebbles'?
The problem with BK is that is puts so much power in the hands of the secured debt holders. Management has to work out a deal with them, and we're talking about real banks, not Etrick.
There won't be an IPO. That's window dressing. It's all window dressing. It's all for the benefit of keeping a single story line intact, and that story line comes directly from the loan covenants. Roel has a brief honeymoon having pushed Vern out. But the terms of that honeymoon are only as good as their collective ability to meet the convenants. Vern couldn't do it; now it's Roel's turn.
The banks would not have done a full new round of due diligence to renegotiate some specifics in the loan covenants. They don't really have to. If EAC is making up order book numbers, who cares. All that matters is if they produce and get paid for x aircraft in y months. If they do, great, they would have sufficient cash flow to satisfy the banks. If they don't, it won't matter because they will go into BK and the banks will control the outcome. Talking about an IPO is just part of keeping up the facade which the so called order book is also part of.
'and what floats on water?'
'very small pebbles'?
A Duck!
The problem with BK is that is puts so much power in the hands of the secured debt holders. Management has to work out a deal with them, and we're talking about real banks, not Etrick.
What will the city of ABQ do with Eclipse's Industrial Revenue Bond?
BK problem of the first order...
The thought that BK will wipe out certain un-secured creditors, who have paid up for their planes in the form of free cash to EAC... is perverted.
Extinguishing the obligation to deliver these planes, and repay the money... basically destroys the only customers the company has.
When you stiff the last 400 or so Die-Hards... there are virtually no customers left... especially not at the new low price of $2.15M.
I think closing the US operations, and telling everyone to wait for the Russian E500 is the way to go... to keep the dream alive...
and I maintain... no matter what, the E500 IS DOA... and from the sounds of the 107 orders for the e400... its DOA too. There's no way to justify developing another plane here, for a total of 100 orders going in...I'd say a minimum of 400 orders are required at this point.
The thought that BK will wipe out certain un-secured creditors, who have paid up for their planes in the form of free cash to EAC... is perverted.
Extinguishing the obligation to deliver these planes, and repay the money... basically destroys the only customers the company has.
When you stiff the last 400 or so Die-Hards... there are virtually no customers left... especially not at the new low price of $2.15M.
I think closing the US operations, and telling everyone to wait for the Russian E500 is the way to go... to keep the dream alive...
and I maintain... no matter what, the E500 IS DOA... and from the sounds of the 107 orders for the e400... its DOA too. There's no way to justify developing another plane here, for a total of 100 orders going in...I'd say a minimum of 400 orders are required at this point.
Actually at least as far as Baron and I have discussed, post-BK Eclipse would no longer be a manufacturing company but would instead be a servicing company. As you state the FPJ is dead, so what good does the Russia factory do? The only long-term solution is getting out of the manufacturing business and instead just focus on parts/upgrades/etc for the existing fleet. It would be a very small business compared to the billion dollars plus that was put into Eclipse and Eclipse touted as working its way to be the fastest billion dollar a year corporation behind Amazon, but it is about the only real sustainable business I see that Eclipse has got.
There's a good reason for the so-called credit crunch. It's to stop throwing good money after bad. Eclipse cannot remotely justify the amount of money poured into it short of playing games with the order book to pretend that Eclipse is something that it is not. The smart money stayed away and there's an ever increasing shortage of dumb money out there who haven't yet caught on what's going on with Eclipse/ETIRC/DayJet.
"Anyone know how the refund requests are handled in the order book? Inquiring minds want to know."
"DOn't ask... Don't tell" is my guess from the only 2 significant orders... Roel/Etrick and Ed/Dayjet.
Collectively, these orders amount to around 1600 or so.
Are they REAL orders?
With deposits?
Were they ever?
The refunds are insignificant compared to these...
Once they come clean on these "orders".... the jig is up...
That's why we speculate there are a few hundred orders left, less the refund requests.
I've been called "optimistic" when stating I believe there are 300-400 orders left.
DAve,
of course you are correct..
I was thinking about how they could keep the scheme alive and try an IPO...
I know its BS... but most of this has been BS for a long time.
I expect it will continue... that's all.
"we need some cash to build a new low cost factory in Siberia... IPO.. THEN we'll deliver at $1.7 m at 3 per day... and here are the Etrick and Dayjet orders we need to fill..."
Is a "story" - that all
I think tbms is right - there's no plan for BK here, more a desperate effort to keep the original 'revoltionary VLJ' narrative alive (order book, talking about an IPO, E400). The influence that the creditors would have in Chapt 11 would be, um, unpalatable to RP et al. (There may also be a concern that Chapt 11 isn't feasible and that Chapt 7 would be inevitable if any form of BK happens - just a SWAG on my part).
The implication is that suppliers, position holders, owners and refund seekers can expect to be playing 'let's make a deal' with Eclipse, as the company desperately tries to square the cashflow circle. The game has already started with refunds and retrofits. There will be further attempts to shear those sheep, I think...
There are a bunch of techniques that Eclipse can be expected to use to attempt to circumvent or supercede existing legal agreements and to divide and rule supplier/customer interest groups.
I was thinking about how they could keep the scheme alive and try an IPO...
I know its BS... but most of this has been BS for a long time.
I expect it will continue... that's all.
Actually I expect them to do it during BK even though it isn't good in the long-term. I expect them to use that to keep themselves in bankruptcy reorganization instead of bankruptcy liquidation. Eclipse has spent the past decade working for short-term benefit instead of what was best in the long-term. Eclipse could have been so much better if it was developed with the right attitude.
I wasn't at Oshkosh this year, but word on the street is that it was a dismal failure for Eclipse, despite Eclipse's being one of the largest advertisers and supporters of the event.
Why? Well, when Roel took Vern out to the woodshed last Monday and gave him a real ass-whooping, it pretty much validated what has been said on this blog for the past couple of years and set the tone for the week.
We all knew it was coming - just a matter of time - yet when it happened I think we were all a bit surprised. The timing of Vern's firing wasn't particularly well thought out, and I think it hurt rather than helped Eclipse.
I'm no big fan of Vern as most of you know, but I couldn't help but experience a certain amount of sadness at the turn of events. Sad because it didn't have to happen this way - Eclipse could have been so much more than it is IF the CEO would have had a little more humility. His ego took priority over common sense and rational decision making, and in the end it affected the product and got him tossed out. Hopefully, he learned something from the experience.
Anyway, goodbye Vern, and please accept my best wishes for whatever the future holds for you.
Anyway, goodbye Vern, and please accept my best wishes for whatever the future holds for you.
I think the jury is still out on the Vern/Roel relationship and for that matter his relationship with Eclipse. Vern is now on ETIRC's payroll afterall.
It is obvious to me that Eclipse is currently playing the game with depositors and vendors that say AA played with their pilot's union.
"If you don't work with us on more favorable terms, BK is unavoidable and you will end up with nothing."
That is just another path.
DL, UA, WN chose to go into Ch11, AA chose to use the CH 11 threat to achieve almost the same results (but not quite as much) with less disruption.
All the Vern talk about minutes from BK, and RP's current talk is just that - put creditors, vendors, position holders on notice - don't rock the boat or you will end up in the water.
All the Vern talk about minutes from BK, and RP's current talk is just that - put creditors, vendors, position holders on notice - don't rock the boat or you will end up in the water.
I don't think so because Eclipse is a money losing operation and they've had to repeatedly go back to get more funding because they bleed red ink. Vern had said Eclipse was close to BK when an fundor changed the terms of the deal at the last minute, not over a customer or supplier issue. Creditors could see themselves in the water now and no amount of game theory would make them back off. Also it is very dangerous because a party who felt like they were cheated could file to force Eclipse into involuntary bankruptcy. It might or might not be in their best economic interests to do so, but they might do it for other reasons besides economics.
Hi guys,
Long time, no blog...
Wow, 500+ comments and still going strong!
A couple of comments...
1. Although my only 'skin' in this game is non-monetary, I do sometimes tire of the endless Eclipse bashing (no matter how much material this provide us with) and I have said before that there are other aviation companies that are currently making some of the same mistakes that Eclipse has, but they haven't come to light YET. But I do SO love a good kerfuffle...
2. We have discussed the problems with Avio and integrated systems, throttle problems and Eclipse vendor issues. But how much have we connected the issues? One of the biggest problems with integrating systems and operating them all by computer is making sure you correctly and adequately define all of the functions, limitations and inter-relationships involved. This is where the OEM is involved (IMHO)and is where Eclipse dropped the ball as compared to other OEMs.
Shane's Rant for the Day
The business aspects of EAC have dominated this week, as the removal of a CEO is fundamentally a business decision.
My sense of what is going on is that the banks called up, dictated a course of events to Roel as Chairman and gave him x number of months (probably as few as 3) to get the ship back on course.
This is 'standard' procedure for a company with cash flow problems and lenders who want their money back. At the end of the 90 days, either the Chairman (who is supposed to represent the shareholders) has managed to bag a high profile CEO and provide some serious comfort in the form of equity dilution or extended supplier credit, or this game is up.
I've been banging this drum for some time now. Cash is king at EAC. Nothing, but nothing else matters. Reading the signs, with the retrofit program on hold, suppliers only seeing cash when the withhold supply and depositors having to go through hoops to get their money back (and remember it is THEIR money) it's clear to me that this company is at a major crossroads.
Order book? What order book..
The order book is false, and always has been. At $900,000, there might have been something like 800 real orders. At $2.1 million I suspect that there are 300 at most, of which about 150 are already fulfilled. The only thing keeping the rest of the orders 'in line' is that they now can't switch to the secondary market as what they will be stuck with is an FPJ 'A'.
There is a new term for the blog. FPJA is the E500 without the retrofits of AvioNG, FIKI and the sundry other bits. FPJB, of which the first example was shown at Oshkosh, is what the customers actually signed up for. It's also the minimum needed to expand the market into Europe and make airtaxi operations viable.
But here's the rub. Making FPJB is draining the company of a lot more hard to find cash. Suppliers like Garmin won't stand for any nonsense like not getting paid on time. The historical suppliers are already demanding COD.
Service? Get real, we're talking EAC here!
Which kinda puts a stop to the discussion about a post BK 'service based' EAC. Which FPJ will they be able to support? FPJA is of such limited use that I'm reliably informed more than 60% of them hardly fly at all. A few more 'runaway engines' and 'Airspeed Disagree' messages and even the 50 or so that people regularly fly will be grounded by the owners never mind the FAA.
This circus is over.
The curtain is being lowered as we chat away here. Soon, an accountant will be announced as the COO, he (or she) will fire 70% of the staff at ABQ, sell off the service centers to whoever offers a dime (or less) on the dollar and will slash all advertising and marketing. After that, it's only a matter of time.
All of which makes current investigations into 'shady dealings' that got this whole mess started a bit moot.
Business is after all, pretty simple. Never make a promise you can't keep, and always keep the promises you make. EAC failed on both.
And that's my 'beef' with this rabble. I cannot believe how low they have stooped in their dealings with staff, suppliers and, critically, customers.
Housekeeping announcement
This thread will continue through today, as the promised 'news' is delayed for technical reasons. The 'Top Ten Shortcomings' will follow later next week, and I have a string of other subjects to cover over the next 3 or 4 weeks.
EAC may be a deaths door, but this blog moves from strength to strength.
Ironic, isn't it?
Shane
PS 9Z, Easybake, welcome 'home'.
shane :
if you would be blonde , i would say "i love you !" ;-))
don't worry , i won't !!
only one word come to my mind about your post : excellent !
and when i read about an eventual IPO , i am rolling on the floor ...
do these guys want to give a new definition to the concept called Capitalism ?
it is absolutely incredible to see some persons taking all other for totally stupid and as gullible as newly born sheep ...
i stated it before :
with EAC it is always the same story with mouth always best and cheapest , but with tangible fac always too few, too small and too late ...!
Shane,
you are obviously the right man for this job!!
Thanks
84 eclipse listings on Controller
which includes 5 400's
eighty-four... wow
In looking through the Eclipse listings on Controller I notice something familiar. You see a lot of aircraft for sale with very few hours on the engine/airframe. This brings to mind other aircraft models with a similar history. In other words, the aircraft gets built but then the owner is afraid to fly it. Certain homebuilt helicopters fit this description. Certain high performance homebuilts fit this description. And now we find the E500 fitting this description. Unless something changes it will always be recognized as an aircraft that owners are afraid to fly.
Of course this could change if a major player buys the assets out of bankruptcy and fixes problems on aircraft already produced and all future aircraft. Who could that be? Who could have the finances and resources to pull off such a trick? Let's see....
Cessna? Naw! They have all the small jets they need. Wouldn't make sense.
Cirrus? Maybe! They have an E400 variant under development. A certified E500 would fill in their gaps nicely. They could fix the problems and make a good fit with the existing product line. Will this happen? No. Unless they could buy the company for a TINY fraction of what is invested Cirrus doesn't have the money. Would make an IPO possible, however.
Boeing? Absolutely! They build big jets. They could build small jets. They have wanted to compete with the likes of Cessna for years. The Boeing name would lend instant credibility.
Gulfstream,Raytheon, et. al. Again, absolutely! Look for a "Big Jet" company to come courting EAC eventually hits the bankruptcy skids. There are a lot of big companies that will look at this as a very fixable problem that will give them an entrée into a growing and viable segment of the business.
The bad news for position holders is that they will be toast. Give it up. Your money is gone. Kaput. Nada. Nothing. That's what you will get for supporting Vern.
Existing holder? You MIGHT be OK. A "Big Jet" buyer might wish to upgrade the existing fleet at cost. This would help absolve them from possible liability. Don't expect an upgrade for free, however. You might be looking at spending $750K or more. Given the fact you got a bargain to begin with this might not be such a bad deal. You'll still bitch but at least you won't have an aircraft you are afraid to fly. Peace of mind will have a steep price.
And, NO I'm still not Vern:)
Sorry Shane,
I think you are too optimistic to see the FPJB' airtaxis cruising around your green island:
As far as I understood TCAS III(?) is needed for taxi-oprations in Europe. EAC (VR) stated that there is no space for the antennas - ADS-B is state of the art (but in U. S.: 2025 or so (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=6676eabb-4107-4184-8bda-376e521055db&)). But perhaps something will happen.
By the way http://www.etirc.com/ is blank right now. The original entry is locked ("You don't have permission to access /cms/page/155 on this server"). The days before ETIRC had also shown a more modern type of homepage (copyright 2004; three partners with ETRIC instead of two now).
For me it's a miracle if Roel can rise the price of the FPJ and could raise the number orders (real orders!) without raising the value of the little bird (anti skid brakes, air brakes...).
i_am_no_vern,
thanks to VR's ego trips EAC is well know. Up to now there are no accidents with serious injuries.-These are the major or even only assets which VR's show has generated in more than ten years.
Only after bk it will be posssible to estimate the costs and time for redesign and re certification of the FJPB and the value of the tools and production processes at EAC.
As for now the brand ECLIPSE could be used for an entry into the aerospace and GA market - if it will be possible to get rid of ETIRC at an appropriate low price.
HBC, Bombardier Gulfstream are established....
julius
Don't worry about future requirements for operation in Europe (ADS-B or TCAS III, how do Eclipse operators intend to meet the requirements to have two DME's and two ADF's when operating commercially? Seeing as almost all SIDs, Stars, Transitions, Approaches or MAP feature a DME distance somewhere, I don't buy any European CAA taking one of these on a AOC without DME (For ADF there are some standard exemptions).
OPS 1.865 (c)
(c) Navigation equipment. An operator shall ensure that navigation equipment
(1) comprises not less than:
(i) one VOR receiving system, one ADF system, one DME except that an ADF system need not be installed
provided that the use of the ADF is not required in any phase of the planned flight;
(ii) one ILS or MLS where ILS or MLS is required for approach navigation purposes;
(iii) one marker beacon receiving system where a marker beacon is required for approach navigation purposes;
(iv) an area navigation system when area navigation is required for the route being flown;
(v) an additional DME system on any route, or part thereof, where navigation is based only on DME signals;
(vi) an additional VOR receiving system on any route, or part thereof, where navigation is based only on VOR
signals;
(vii) ADF system on any route, or part thereof, where navigation is based only on NDB signals; or
(2) complies with the required navigation performance (RNP) type for operation in the airspace concerned.
(d) An operator may operate an aeroplane that is not equipped with an ADF or with the navigation equipment specified
in subparagraph(s) (c)(1)(vi) and/or (c)(1)(vii), provided that it is equipped with alternative equipment authorised, for
the route being flown, by the Authority.
GettingReady2FileSuit's August 2, 2008 12:47 PM comment: "I believe Dan Asher is the $$$ behind North American Jet at KPWK. Their 135 cert may have a number of FPJ-500s on it."
Thanks for the info. It seems likely that the Dan Asher of North American Jet (NAJet) is also the Daniel Asher who recently petitioned for a subpoena in a matter involving Eclipse (Re: Issuance of Subpoena, No. D-202-CV-2008-07783, New Mexico District Court).
As recently as last month, NAJet was still drinking the Kool-Aid: "North American Jet Charter Group, (www.najet.net) operates six Eclipse 500 aircraft and is expanding its fleet to accommodate the increasing number of Eclipses being delivered throughout the United States. 'Our expertise in managing and operating the Eclipse enables us to put aircraft on our Part 135 certificate in less than a week. We're actively seeking additional aircraft to base in Florida and other parts of the country,' said Ross." ("Very Light Jet Service Now Available to the Bahamas", North American Jet Charter Group, LLC, press release, July 11, 2008, http://www.pr.com/press-release/94722 )
The most recent documentation I've seen of Asher's connection to NAJet is this press release from 2002: "Dan Asher has been the managing director of Castle Creek Partner's family of funds since their inception in 1996. He is also a founding partner of Equitech, a proprietary trading firm on various securities and commodities exchanges, as well as chairman of North American Jet Inc., a premier FBO facility in the Chicago area." ("Visibillity, Inc. Secures $7.5 Million in Latest Round of Funding", press release, April 2, 2002, http://www.prweb.com/releases/2002/3/prweb36097.htm )
There's a Daniel Asher involved in a lawsuit in Cook County, Illinois (the jurisdiction that includes NAJet's main office in Wheeling, IL), which is currently in the discovery phase: Daniel Asher and XVM General Partnership v. John Jellinek, No. 2006-L-009457 (Ill. Circ. Ct., Cook Cty., filed September 7, 2006). That's a contract case in which Asher and XVM seek $650,000 damages from Jellinek. It might be the out-of-state case underlying the New Mexico subpoena. On the other hand, this might not even be the same Daniel Asher. I can't see anything in the information available online that clearly connects (or disconnects) the two proceedings.
Erratum: In my August 2, 2008 12:37 PM comment, in the sentence "I don't have a copy of the order yet, but see my latest post at Eclipse-vs-Does.blogspot.com for a little bit more information", I linked the words "latest post" to the wrong post. The correct URL is: http://eclipse-vs-does.blogspot.com/2008/08/case-dismissed.html
It wouldn't surprise me if it was NA Jet. I got the feeling that when Eclipse that it was all that, that they gave NA Jet the cold shoulder in favor of DayJet. NA Jet was the first to fly a revenue flight with the FPJ, not DayJet, but Eclipse didn't exactly do much to aid in the publicity for NA Jet.
Al -
There's a slightly bizarre (and likely unrelated) possible connection in play here:
Dan Asher is the money behind at least one air charter business; the twin brother of a John Jellinek was killed in the San Diego crash of a chartered jet. A description of the crash is eerily similar to the recent Owatonna crash of a Hawker 800.
Now, just why an air charter financier/operator would sue a crash victim's twin brother (if it's even the same Jellinek family) is a curious question - though it should be noted that the charter company in the aforementioned fatal crash is suing San Diego County - apparently for the grievous error of putting 'County' in the same location where their pilot was overshooting a runway.
Why the taking of a deposition of somebody at Eclipse would be helpful to resolving such things is beyond me. Like I said, it's probably unrelated.
Would you like to Super Size it?
IANAL
On the subject of retrofits.
Vern has long promised that all aircraft would be retrofit at no charge.
Consider the following actions:
1) Roel asks for Vern's resignation.
2) Eclipse announces that retrofits are halted.
3) Eclipse announces that retrofits will cost $35M - $40M to complete.
4) Eclipse announces relationships with external service centers to enhance capacity for retrofits.
Step 5 can't be far away -
5) Eclipse announces that customers will now be required to pay for retrofits.
Still on the subject of retrofits -
It sounds like the average cost to retrofit an aircraft is in excess of $177K per aircraft.
Simple math
$40M divided by 225 aircraft.
This number does not count the cost that Eclipse has already spent on retrofits that have been completed.
If past performance is any indication of future performance when it comes to Eclipse estimates, that $40M number is probably low.
Current owners should be thinking about their response to the high probability that Eclipse will announce they have no choice but to begin charging for retrofits.
E500 owner options
1) Stay the course - Hope that Eclipse will honor Vern's pledge for free retrofits.
2) Sell the bird while Eclipse is still promising free retrofits.
3) Sell the bird after Eclipse announces the retrofit pricing.
4) Plan on $250,000 - $300,000 in retrofit expense and count yourself lucky that you didn't get stuck with the $500,000 in price increases.
5) getready2sue
If you owned an E500 with outstanding IOUs, which path would you choose?
That's a contract case in which Asher and XVM seek $650,000 damages from Jellinek.
Looks to me like they were going to manage an aircraft for him... and he refused to pony up the $650k second deposit.
This was in the 2006 timeframe...
Just a hunch, but I guess NA jet wants the guy to make good on his promise to buy a plane and put it under management with them.
???
Sounds like a smart guy this Jellinek
eclipse has been talking to some of the major mod centers and is having problems getting them to swallow their particular line of BS.
seems they want the cash up-front, apparently they don't trust the new ceo any more than the last one. smart move if you ask me.
Flighcenter - I agree with your retrofit analysis, except maybe:
" Sell the bird while Eclipse is still promising free retrofits."
-Are free retrofits transferable to the new owner? Is the retrofit a well-defined contractural agreement, or just a Vern-promise?
At this stage in the game, Eclipse will be doing anything they can to avoid paying 200-250k retrofit costs per a/c.
I expect there will be a 'free retrofit' queue which owners can bypass by paying for the retrofit. Expect the 'free retrofit' timescales to be 36 months or more, and to slip continuously (enough to make even the dumbest E500 owner realize that they won't actually get the retrofit without paying for it).
From Eclipse's new managements' point of view, these customers have paid an unrealistically low price for their aircraft, and should expect to pay for the extra utility the upgrades supply.
Shane said ... Business is after all, pretty simple. Never make a promise you can't keep, and always keep the promises you make. EAC failed on both.
Hey Shane, all that sailing and you are starting to sound like Fred. By the above measure, ALL aerospace companies are business failures.
Did Airbus keep their promisses on the A340, the A380? Didn't Boeing know (or should have known) that there was NO WAY they could have delivered the 787 in May/08 when they have to roll-out an empty 787-LN001 with temporary/non-conforming fasteners to meet a marketing stunt date of 07-08-07?
Are Boeing and Airbus unscrouulous business failures? Of course not.
Why the need for hyperbole? Why do you insist on proclaiming that the end is iminent.
Why not calmly talk about the cool vision, the failed execution and the current attempts to move forward at Eclipse?
So I see Eclipse's announcement of Harbour Air as a service center:
http://www.amtonline.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6124
So I find Harbour Air's website:
http://www.harbour-air.com/
They're a seaplane charter fleet operator! Is this some kind of joke?
Are free retrofits transferable to the new owner? Is the retrofit a well-defined contractural agreement, or just a Vern-promise?
I believe so. Eclipse made contracts to deliver aircraft that met certain specifications. Without those retrofits Eclipse violates their contract, so someone could ask for a full refund due to breach of contract. Also oral contracts are valid contracts, just usually they're hard to prove. Eclipse's statements to the press regarding the retrofits could be considered binding oral contracts even if the written contract was insufficient by itself.
Freadom said... how do Eclipse operators intend to meet the requirements to have two DME's and two ADF's when operating commercially?
A more pertinent question is when will EASA Eurocontrol get their arses into the 21st Century and stop requiring 1930s (ADF) and 1950s (DME) outmoded navigation equipment on 21st Century planes. Come on already!!!! Here in the colonies, we have been using GPS to substitute for both for a couple of decades now. I know Europe is the "old" continent and all, but how "old" do you need to be?
How do the pilot/citzzens put up with that crap is beyond me. Oh, I forgot, it is a form of democracy ruled by the bureaucrats that "know what is best for you".
Oh well - how quaint. I'll go to the airport tomorrow, see if I can find ANY plane with an ADF, and find ANY airport with an ADF approach and fly it in memory of EASA/Eurocontrol. Cheers.
Are Boeing and Airbus unscrouulous business failures? Of course not.
I wouldn't say that Boeing has scruples and I don't knwo about Airbus.
Why the need for hyperbole? Why do you insist on proclaiming that the end is iminent.
So you think Ecilpse has a bottomless pit for funding?
baron,
its easier to just understand and comply with the regs...
;)
you are a great debater, though.
Dave said:
"They're a seaplane charter fleet operator! Is this some kind of joke?"
Nope, just the only ones so far that are dumb enough to believe they'll ever see a penny from eac.
There's a general down-turn in the GA market right about now. a lot of the major shops are doing a lot less of the "bells and whistles" type installs. Sure, their still soing the standard maintenance and inspections, but the owners just aren't ponying up for the upgrades in the numbers we've seen in the last three years. Trust me, i sell into this market.
every square foot of hangar space is a profit/loss calculation. eclipse has stated that the retrofits are taking on average about 25 days(NEVER believe anything eclipse says, if it's good news...it's exaggerated, if it’s bad…it’s downplayed). They originally quoted 10 days....if they're that far off and they're the ones that built the damn thing, with access to all the pertinent engineering data and spares, then how long do you think someone else is going to take. No real shop is going to risk the learning curve it's going to take to figure this thing out, and i doubt that eclipse is willing to pay parts and labor as opposed to flat rating the project.
Another reason i don't think you're going to see one of the majors(Landmark, Duncan, Midcoast...etc) take on the job is the liability. They're the ones that are going to have to certify these things safe for flight after the retrofits, something i would be loathe to do even before i tore into the POS.
Baron:
I know Europe is the "old" continent and all, but how "old" do you need to be?
i think every one can agree that dealing with easa is a pain in the ass, but if your in the industry you just learn to accept it. Like death, taxes and the fact that anything eac turns out will be a piece of crap, there are certain facts of life that one can't change.....
Another reason i don't think you're going to see one of the majors(Landmark, Duncan, Midcoast...etc) take on the job is the liability. They're the ones that are going to have to certify these things safe for flight after the retrofits, something i would be loathe to do even before i tore into the POS.
Does being in Canada instead of the US make a difference? I would imagine that makes litigation much more complicated.
So I see Eclipse's announcement of Harbour Air as a service center ... They're a seaplane charter fleet operator! Is this some kind of joke?
Dave - I might be confusing them with somebody else, but I believe Harbour is the premier source on Earth for DeHavilland Beaver restoration & upgrades - including zero-timing an airframe. At one time, ISTR on their website the claim that they were the only airline on earth that "made their own aircraft" (which implies that they acquired the TC from DH - I'm uncertain).
IOW, they're legit.
IANAL
Dave,
I really have no idea, those kind of implication are way above my paygrade.
off the subject, but wasn't there something about not being able to have work done on the fpj by anyone other than a certified repair center? what are the chances of the sea-plane facility in question being a certified repair station for eac?
IOW, they're legit
I'm not saying they aren't a legit seaplane operator or that even at one time they were the premier faciilty for working on a certain type of prop plane (there's no mention of servicing of any type of aircraft on their website now), but being an expert on prop seaplanes is different than being service center for VLJs. I wouldn't expect Harbour Air to do a good job. Not because they're illegit, but because jets aren't their thing.
Baron,
Difference between Airbus/Boeing and EAC is quite simple.
When EAC screw up, the victim, sorry, customer pays.
When Airbus/Boeing screw up, they pay.
Read my post carefully. I was not
proclaiming that the end is iminent
(although I think you meant imminent)
I actually said 'x number of months' and allowed, later on, that that might be three.
Now, I could be wrong, I have been before. I guessed 42 (in honor of Douglas Adams) completed FPJ's in 2007, but Black Tulip judged that 99 was the correct average.
The difference between us is I suppose, the inbox. If I had a tenner (Irish term for €10) for each email I get outlining another dodgy move by EAC, I could buy the company and shut it down myself!
Nobody could be as 'off the wall' as these people and survive long term. It is much worse than you think, as I simply cannot put up here more than 10% of what I get.
I am sorry if my frustrations are leaking out a little, but some of the emails I read come from real people who have been badly hurt by their 'association' with EAC.
Fred,
I was blond, before I took on this blog. Now I'm all grey.
OK, thats not strictly accurate, but you get the picture...
Julius,
I'm on record, several times, as making the general point that 'airtaxi' as outlined by EAC/DayJet is a non runner here in Europe, where the skies are too regulated and the alternatives (high speed trains and a fully integrated road network) are so much better than in the US.
But EAC don't listen to the likes of me.
Shane
AT,
Did you call Baron a master debater? lol. Couldn't resist.
EAC don't listen to the likes of me.
Perhaps not - but they certainly do read you!
I wouldn't expect Harbour Air to do a good job.
Turns out I was mistaken. Loading the wash machine, I realized that I was thinking of these guys.
Would you like the Wrinkle Guard?
IANAL
FlightAware has a relatively new feature that let's people upload pictures of specific aircraft and tie them to its N-number. If you look up N333MY on FlightAware, you'll see that someone uploaded a crash picture.
Great little editorial for the FPJ.
With the little jet they could add a spin cycle!
gadfly
(And the extra rinse.)
Gad - were you referring to the 'spin cycle' as what happens when you can't shut down 1 engine - and the 'rinse' as the magic foam shutdown agent? :)
'Rinse', as in what EAC does to its victims, er, customers, before they hang them out to dry.
Orville
You win the prize . . . having understood precisely my intent!
gadfly
(I've been accused of being too vague.)
yeah, well - us old guys think alike. My brother Wilbur got it too. :)
What part of DOA is confusing some of you? Why would anyone "salvage" this Eclipse disaster? Who has patients or time to deal with all these problems that we know of and I'm sure many more that we don't.
If I was a Boeing or whomever and wanted a VLJ I would start with a clean sheet of paper and my reputation. I would have the engineers, I have the suppliers, I have the ability. With no "tip tanks", liabilities, throttle issues, forward swept wings, updates, INOP stickers, door issues, windshield issues, parts falling off issues, 50K per month in soda issues, disgruntled employees, and a built in culture of failure.
What is Eclipse? Some building's that are a poor layout for producing AC? Some of them are a few miles apart. Some inventory that don't match the DWG because of poor quality control? Middle management from Intel that don't understand manufacturing? Stiffed suppliers? Some poorly designed fixtures? Some fasteners and drill bits? Some tables and chairs? Some inexpierenced manufacturing employees? (most of the good ones are contractors and have left or are looking really hard)
The question remains. What are you getting and who would even want it?
Service on some low hour problematic AC with the OEM vaporized? Sounds like a headache to me.
It’s easy to get off on the financial stuff . . . nothing wrong with that. And if we dig deep enough, even the local news will bring up some things that tend to be “politically correct”, with the same level of impact as a cat rescued from a tree.
There was a time when “news” was new, and to the point. Now it's usually a day late, a dollar short, and so “lame” . . . it’s no wonder that newspapers and broadcast news (90 seconds to cover the entire world) are in trouble.
It took a few reports, and a few days, for a 30 second news report to talk about the latest crash . . . and there’s still confusion as to whether the little bird was “taking off” or “landing”.
But now and then, we find a truly newsworthy item. ‘How ‘bout that single sentence that reported the pilot sitting with his (five year old) daughter . . . the “other” person on board, to comfort her after the crash.
If we forget that the most important element of the little jet is not the finances, nor the construction, but the precious cargo that it carries . . . well, we’ve missed the basics.
gadfly
(Wilbur and Orville used “wing warping” to great advantage. Today it’s not the “wings” that are warped.)
One must wonder how quickly Eclipse will now cancel their advertising with Aero News, now that Corporal Zoomer's best buddy Vern has been ousted. Somehow, I just can't see Roel and the Russians wasting money on a rag like ANN...
Should this happen, it will be VERY interesting to see if ANN finally starts practicing "real" journalism RE: Eclipse Aviation, if only out of spite (check the web, Zoomer's done it before.)
Fun times.
Craft N118EA flies to Europe today
“No one was hurt . . .”
The legal ramifications in view of a little girl’s trauma are almost endless.
“No one was hurt . . .”? Somehow, that may be a premature statement by a reporter, unqualified to make such a diagnosis, or assessment.
Maybe a more accurate statement would have been, ‘No one appeared to be physically hurt . . .’
Trauma may be “unexpected or unpredictable” . . . and someone may just have a field day with that characterization of the second incident.
gadfly
(‘Living up to my name.)
Shane said ... I am sorry if my frustrations are leaking out a little, but some of the emails I read come from real people who have been badly hurt by their 'association' with EAC.
Fair enough. I can see how observing and reading about Eclipse's dealings can exasperate even a Scott, let alone an Irish lad. ;)
Incidentally, I see no great need for to feel sorry or be anointed the defenders of anyone dealing with Eclipse.
ANY party dealing with Eclipse should know that:
a - It was too good to be true (be it an $850K jet in 4 years, or stock options, or a contract to sell thousands of shipsets/year).
b - Dealing with a startup company, innexperienced in a demanding field like aviation and full of hyperbole is almost 100% agambling.
These are all smart, experience, financially successful people, that knew (or should have known) what they were doing. If someone that is sitting on a speculative Eclipse position gets burned, so be it. They went for the high-risk, high-reward play that more often than not ends up badly. their choice.
I see the role of the blog as two fold:
1 - A place to gather information that is a counterpoint to the Eclipse hyperbole and the tow the line press.
2 - As a way to embarass the press to ask and report on the shortcomings of Eclipse.
Cheers.
Sparky said... but wasn't there something about not being able to have work done on the fpj by anyone other than a certified repair center?
There is a limitation on the Eclipse TC that says ONLY ECLIPSE can make any major alteration to the instrument pannel/avionics/cockpit.
Perhaps that is what you are referring to. So, for example, I could not start my company to put a G-1000 SVS on Eclipse planes like I could do on a King Air. Doing so is not permited by the Eclipse TC/AFM.
Bummer. I have the biz plan all ready to go. Maybe I can hire Sandra or Leslie or whatever the name of the Eclipse's lawyer was.
Dave - I might be confusing them with somebody else, but I believe Harbour is the premier source on Earth for DeHavilland Beaver restoration & upgrades - including zero-timing an airframe. At one time, ISTR on their website the claim that they were the only airline on earth that "made their own aircraft" (which implies that they acquired the TC from DH - I'm uncertain).
Dave,
I think you mean Viking Air. See www.vikingair.com
They say the following on their website...
"Viking is a first tier original equipment manufactuer (OEM) specializing in de Havilland aircraft products. Viking is the type certificate holder for the DHC-2 Beaver,DHC-2T Turbo Beaver, DHC-3 Otter, DHC-6 Twin Otter, DHC-4 Caribou, DHC-5 Buffalo and DHC-7 Dash 7 aircraft."
They also install Chelton products in DHC-2s. Nice.
Jeff
baron :
stop honoring me by saying shane sounds like me ...!!
shane :
yes , i got the picture ...:-))
nonetheless , i think i can say "we love you " !!
as for you hair turning grey since you host the blog , you deserve a cheer !
give me the name of your favorite "black irish liquid stuff" dealer , i'll call them to say "his drinks (s because i know a bit irish) are on me ...! " ;-))
baron95 :
yes , here we are the "old continent" ...
are we better or worse ?
anyway it is none of your business !
as long as we remain true to ourselves ...!
you don't like it ? wow, that's too bad ...! ;-)))
Baron95 wrote:
A more pertinent question is when will EASA Eurocontrol get their arses into the 21st Century and stop requiring 1930s (ADF) and 1950s (DME) outmoded navigation equipment on 21st Century planes. Come on already!!!! Here in the colonies, we have been using GPS to substitute for both for a couple of decades now. I know Europe is the "old" continent and all, but how "old" do you need to be?
How do the pilot/citzzens put up with that crap is beyond me. Oh, I forgot, it is a form of democracy ruled by the bureaucrats that "know what is best for you".
Oh well - how quaint. I'll go to the airport tomorrow, see if I can find ANY plane with an ADF, and find ANY airport with an ADF approach and fly it in memory of EASA/Eurocontrol. Cheers.
Lot of truth in what you wrote about ..."it is a form of democracy ruled by the bureaucrats that "know what is best for you".
Problem around moving to GPS data for flight is that it is an incredibly weak signal on a single frequency (the second frequency is military only), and thus very easy to jam. Also the system owner refuses to enter into any civilian contract concerning availablity.
Unfortunately the German government created an instant market for civilian GPS jammers by doing truck road user pricing based on GPS data.
I believe the road map for Eurocontrol does imagine decommisioning NDBs, sometime in the next twenty years, but also picture a huge expansion in the number of DMEs (won't happen).
The European GPS satellite system (if it ever happens) should add two more discrete frequencies, and the Russian Glosnass (or whatever it is called) is also supposed to be patched up to add it's frequency. Then sometime in 2050 the eurocontrol bureaucrats will be confident that they have a robust satellite based system (by which time it will be as obselete as NDB's :)
freedom :
as far as i know the Glosnass is supposed to more or less integrated into E-Gps ...!
if it ever happen ...!
one of the biggest problem with the Today GPS is unreliability !
as during the past festivities in Iraq and/or when some kind of officials go to say hello to GI's there the signal is downgraded partly due to Jamming in case of something ...
at same time , i don't think it's a good idea to base your activities on a device or system you do not control or have no word on how it is used ... (such as Gps)
coming back on the IPO subject :
i can't stop laughing about this ...
do these guys know that the dot.com era is dead ?
the time when any kind of S-bag could make a start-up and have it bought thru an IPO basically selling the idea that something doing nothing , earning nothing , worth nothing could have some value on stock-market ...
is definitely gone (until most forget the whole scam and prepare themselves to be dried-up again !)
in the same way HOW could IPO work for EAC ?
the concept is to take a share of ownership to slice the eventual profits and /or success by taking care of some of the risks , mainly by putting some cash in the project ...
i really do not see HOW it could work here ???
EAC is never going to profitable ...!
they are either trapped into the Low-pricing scam (where building cost more than selling = madness!)with some possibilities of selling ...
or into rising price to substantials profits and then no customers ...
not even talking about all "free" promised ...
and not about the 1 Billion 300+ , some previous victims err investors are probably willing to see back one day ...!!
complete madness , it only comfort me in the idea that it is different management but remain the same shit ...!
freedom
#Lot of truth in what you wrote about ..."it is a form of democracy ruled by the bureaucrats that "know what is best for you".#
do you try to compare those ones , to the UNelected ones who thought it could be a good idea to ruin a country for 1 or 2 generations ? (Fed)
New post up.
Good news, for a change....
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