Monday, August 4, 2008

Another important notice for the 'Honor Roll'


Eclipse Aviation: New CEO, Blogger Suit Quashed

03-Aug-2008
By Karen Di Piazza /CharterX Industry Headline News

Monday, Vern Raburn, founder of Eclipse Aviation Corp., was ejected from his position as CEO. Roel Pieper, Eclipse chairman, founder and chairman of the of European Technology and Investment Research Center, became Eclipse's acting CEO. Raburn will act as vice chairman of ETIRC, to focus on global expansion of the Eclipse 500 very light. With Raburn gone, Friday, the Eclipse Aviation Critic NG blog lawsuit, lead by Raburn, was quashed. (Reference the April 25 article, Eclipse Aviation Critic Blogger Fights Eclipse Aviation Subpoena, and Quash Eclipse Aviation Subpoena of Eclipse Aviation Critic Bloggers, published May 8.)
Eclipse served Google in California with a subpoena demanding it release personal information and the identities of 29 bloggers. Rich Lucibella, who's in the publishing business, wasn't one of the 29 people on Eclipse's list. A huge proponent of the First Amendment and everything it stands for, Lucibella hired Florida-based attorney Norman Malinski, who took on Eclipse on behalf of the 29 bloggers. He immediately filed a motion to prevent Google from releasing bloggers' private information.

Eclipse had first filed a lawsuit in New Mexico, where Eclipse is headquartered, against unnamed people that agedly violated company non-disclosure agreements; however, Eclipse sought to subpoena Google for the names of 29 bloggers trying to match identities with those who may have breeched NDAs. The New Mexico case was sealed for months; Malinski successfully filed a motion unsealing the case in late July.

Eclipse ended up withdrawing both the New Mexico and California case, with terms set by Malinski. "If Eclipse ever goes after these 29 bloggers again, Eclipse could face financial penalties in advance of proceedings," Malinski said.

Malinski said that the First Amendment is important. "Freedom of speech rights includes being able to keep your identity anonymous, to be able to express freedom of speech, to have the freedom to disagree with someone else's opinion without being harassed."

Lucibella said that he was happy that more money won't be "wasted by Eclipse's creditors on this frivolous lawsuit, and that the suit was nothing more than a personal vendetta by Raburn."

Shane Price, host of the Eclipse Aviation Critic NG blog, said, "I'm delighted that the revised management structure at Eclipse decided to withdraw the 'John Doe, Jane Doe' litigation. It was a waste of time, a waste of management resources and cash. Rich Lucibella deserves gratitude for his selfless act to protect others' welfare; he funded the defense of First Amendment rights."

Eclipse declined to comment.

This article is reproduced here 'for the record'. Although Karen was kind enough to quote me, I wish to state that we all owe Gunner, big time, for his direct action in the matter. A man who says what he means and means what he says. His lawyer, Norman Malinski, also deserves credit for his prompt actions at all times, and the astute manner in which he identified the weaknesses in the Eclipse submissions.

So, there you have it. The suit is finished, and cannot be reactivated unless EAC stump up a pile of cash. I hope you all sleep a little easier now. I know I will...

Shane

285 comments:

1 – 200 of 285   Newer›   Newest»
fred said...

yes !

we owe it big toward the two ...

so Monsieur Norman and Monsieur Rich , you deserve a bottle of Champagne !

Black Tulip said...

Ready...Aim...Fire

Thank you Gunner

thebloggerformerlyknownasWhyTech said...

Yes, thank you, Gunner! A stunning piece of work! May you live forever in the annals of free speech.

tbfkaWT

eclipso said...

As said before, A heartfelt thanks to Gunner and Shane.

You guys took the ball and ran without any hesitatation and kept us all well informed and comfortable in knowing it was all being handled without question.

This is the true definition of INTEGRITY....thanks Rich. Thanks Shane.

airsafetyman said...

Thanks again, guys. If the aviation press is going to take a nap then somebody has to blow the whistle on Eclipse/DayJet/ETIRC/ETIRC Aviation. Thanks for making it possible.

paul said...

In other news, workers at Hawker Beechcraft in Witcita are on strike.

uglytruth said...

Thank You for standing up for all that is good and right in the USA.

Dave said...

Thanks Gunner

airsafetyman said...

The ETIRC Aviation website is down (as well as the ETIRC website). Roel's 'Favonius Ventures' website is still there. Apparently Favonius used to be called 'Insight Ventures Europe'. Stand by for hype and spin.

John said...

Summary Table of Europe Deliveries
Serial # .. Number .. Escape .. Notes
9 .. N513EA .. 23-May ..
28 .. N963JG .. to EUR 7/12 ..
51 .. N500UK .. .. Sabena
53 .. N514EA .. ..
80 .. 580WC .. 15-Jun ..
82 .. 382EA .. to EUR 7/12 .. off controller
99 .. 911MX .. 5/29 to Europe .. auction craft
104 .. 117EA .. to EUR on 5/26 ..
120 .. 27052 .. to EUR 6/9 ..
137 .. 36FD .. ..
138 .. 100VA .. ..
152 .. 113EA .. ..
155 .. 114EA .. to EUR on 6/7 ..
172 .. 964JG .. to EUR 7/12 ..
184 .. 118EA .. to EUR on 8/4 ..
190 .. 190CK .. 3-Jun ..

Niner Zulu said...

Rich, Thank you for your efforts on behalf of bloggers everywhere!

By the way, the "new" Eclipse Aviation Corporation took it upon themselves to reimburse you for your attorney fees and other out-of-pocket expenses to fight this silly subpoena, right?

What, they didn't?

Same old Eclipse.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Thanks Gunner and Norman. Good work. I appreciate your effosts on our behalf.

airtaximan said...

Rich...

What can I say?

It has been an honor and a privledge to be sued along with the other esteemed folks on this blog, and to be represented by Rich and Norman.

Shane, and of course Stan... thanks - I believe you have done a great thing here.

Its a nice little club.

Thank you

FreedomsJamtarts said...

16 Partial eclipses in Europe.

They obviously are not flying much, as Europe has a very active community of plan spotters publishing on Airliners.net (which the CIA was embarrassed to dicover), yet the only planes to have been photographed in Europe are :

N500UK 1x Spain, 2xUK
N514EA 1X Turkey, Spain and Switz.
N36FD 1x Austria

I wonder who is maintaining them.

fred said...

freedom ...

no one !

or at least not one to be officially allowed to do so ...!

still this pesky Easa Cert. in the way ...!

by the way , a link , a bit old , but interesting for the one believing air-taxi has a great future in E.U.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/en/misc/99972.pdf

airsafetyman said...

"I wonder who is maintaining them."

I thought for the warranty to be valid they HAVE to be maintained by an Eclipse service center?

exsomethingorother said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shane Price said...

I'm confused.

The EAC web site, in the 'Leadership' section still says:-

At the center is Vern Raburn, a successful entrepreneur and former Microsoft executive who was a dominant force in the PC revolution. Raburn’s passion for flying and all its possibilities was the driving force behind the creation of Eclipse Aviation.

Now I have to admit that the photo his gone, and he is not listed as a director, but someone clearly didn't update the website fully.

Maybe they think no one is reading it anymore....

Shane

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Megaditto's to Rich and Norman for their excellent handling of these issues on our collective behalf.

Once again, great work Karen, thanks for trying to maintain some kind of journalistic pressure on the would-be non-OEM.

Thanks too to Shane for keeping the fire burning here.

Congratulations to Eclipse for making an adult decision (even if it took help) - here's to hoping that continues.

Dave said...

Now I have to admit that the photo his gone, and he is not listed as a director, but someone clearly didn't update the website fully.

Or maybe they did. He's just not on the Eclipse payroll any longer, but Vern and Roel are as thick as thieves.

gadfly said...

Thank you, Gunner, for your high caliber actions.

gadfly

mountainhigh said...

Thank you all ... Rich, Norman and Gadfly (for standing in the gap, if needed). A fight well fought!

Dave said...

Here's ETIRC claiming they can be a 5 billion euro company:
http://www.orgkomitet.com/announcement/program/presentation_pieper.ppt#7
I guess this is like Eclipse claiming that they'd be a billion a year company (the fastest to a billion since Amazon.com):
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2004-03-08-raburn_x.htm

mountainhigh said...

Most recent report:

http://akama.arc.nasa.gov/ASRSDBOnline/QueryWizard_Display.aspx?server=ASRSO
---
Date : 200805
Aircraft Component : Autopilot
Aircraft Component : Normal Brake System

Narrative
DURING CLB AUTOPLT FAILED, CLBED THROUGH ALTITUDE BY 280 FT TO APPROX ALT OF 22280 FT. WE CAUGHT PROBLEM AND WERE CORRECTING WHEN ATC ASKED OUR ALT WHICH WAS RPTED AT 22200 FT AT THAT POINT IN TIME. EA500 ECLIPSE JET HAS HAD NUMEROUS ISSUES WITH THIS AND OTHER AUTOMATED SYSTEMS FAILURES ON THE OLD AVIO SYSTEM AND SAYS AVIO NG WILL FIX ISSUES. ON A PRIOR FLT WE EXPERIENCED 6 WARNING MSGS AT ONCE, THEY WERE: 1. RIGHT ENGINE OIL TEMP OVERHEAT 2. STICK PUSHER FAILURE 3. AIRSPEED DISAGREEMENT 4. TRIM FAILURE 5. AUTOPILOT YAW DAMPER FAILURE 6. HEADING DISAGREEMENT. OUR INITIAL CONCERN AT THE TIME WAS THE OIL TEMP OVERHEAT WHICH WE WERE ATTENDING TO WHEN WITHIN SECONDS ALL THE OTHER WARNING WENT OFF AS WE WERE DSNDING OUT OF FL230 TO 15000 FT. SINCE OUR ATTENTION WAS ON THE OIL TEMP WE DID NOT NOTICE THAT THE AUTOPLT HAD DISENGAGED AS WELL AND BLEW THROUGH OUR ALTITUDE OF 15000 FT TO APPROX 13800 FT. DURING EARLIER FLT BRAKE SYSTEM WAS MUSHY UPON EXTENDING GEAR. PUMPED BRAKES THREE TIMES TO STIFFEN BRAKES WHICH IS A NORMAL ROUTINE PROC BEFORE LNDG. BRAKES DID NOT STIFFEN AND REMAINED MUSHY. PIC ADVISED SIC AS PART OF PRE-LNDG BRIEFING TO KEEP FEET OFF THE BRAKES DUE TO PAST PROBLEMS INVOLVING THIS AND OTHER EA50 ACFT. UPON LNDG R MAIN LOCKED UP ON TOUCHDOWN BLOWING TIRE. WE WERE ABLE TO STEER THE ACFT CLEAR OF THE RWY. ARPT OPS RPTED SKID MARKS AT THE BEGINNING OF TOUCHDOWN TO THE TXWY WE TURNED OFF AT, THAT WERE NOT THERE DURING EARLIER RWY INSPECTIONS THAT DAY. BRAKES AND TIRES HAVE BEEN A MAJOR ISSUE WITH THE EA50, ALONG WITH OTHER NUMEROUS AUTOMATION AND FALSE/REAL WARNING FAILURES. THE EA50 HAS A LOT OF GREMLINS AND CAN BE SOMEWHAT DISCOMFORTING TO FLY. ECLIPSE KEEPS SAYING THAT ALL THE ISSUES WILL BE FIXED WITH THE NEW AVIO NG. IN THE MEAN TIME IT SEEMS WE ARE TEST PLTS FOR THIS ACFT AND HAVE TO STRUGGLE NOT TO FILE A NASA RPT EVERY TIME WE FLY THE ACFT.

CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: IN ADDITION TO THE PROBLEMS REFERENCED IN HIS RPT, THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN PROBLEMS WITH BLEED AIR OVER TEMPS, FLAP MALFUNCTIONS, AND CRACKED WINDSHIELDS. ALL THIS IN 100 HOURS OF FLYING. THE MANUFACTURER CLAIMS THAT THE UPDATED AVIONICS SYSTEM WILL SOLVE MANY OF THE PROBLEMS. THIS SYSTEM IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR RETROFIT AT THIS WRITING AND WILL NOT CORRECT THE WINDOW, BRAKE, AND FLAP PROBLEMS.

gadfly said...

mountainhigh

It would be easy for folks to back off just now. But in some ways, the most difficult part lies ahead. And the longer these little jets continue to infiltrate general aviation, the more difficult to correct the damage. So, we'll step up the pressure a few notches.

gadfly

(We're not after another 38th parallel scenario.)

airsafetyman said...

"Or maybe they did. He's just not on the Eclipse payroll any longer"

Oops:
"He [the Vernster] will remain an employee of the company as Vice Chairman of Internationalization of Eclipse."
(a quote from Roel}

Dave said...

ALL THIS IN 100 HOURS OF FLYING. THE MANUFACTURER CLAIMS THAT THE UPDATED AVIONICS SYSTEM WILL SOLVE MANY OF THE PROBLEMS. THIS SYSTEM IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR RETROFIT AT THIS WRITING AND WILL NOT CORRECT THE WINDOW, BRAKE, AND FLAP PROBLEMS.

Ah yes, Avio NG will fix everyone's problems, just nobody can have Avio NG. This is so much like Microsoft (unsurprisingly) turning the customers into beta testers and then requiring many service packs to get out many of the bugs. However, when Microsoft Windows crashes nobody is at risk of getting hurt, but with Eclipse's Avio...

I guess having a buggy Aircraft OS isn't inherently wrong, just Eclipse whined incessantly about how any sort of non-Avio backup was needless and to suggest otherwise was backwards thinking. They were really just trying ot shortchange their customers by having to spend less on safety equipment and to hit their contractual targets. If they had manufactured the aircraft to be safe, it probably would have cost even more and they wouldn't have hit their contractual targets.

Gunner said...

For my part, that's more than enough "thank you's"...honest. I've had my 15 minutes of fame and am well pleased at the way this was handled and the manner it was resolved. Particular thanks to Shane, Stan and (most particularly) Karen and Gadfly for their pivotal roles in this saga.

I will now state for the record that nobody, including me, enjoys burning cash on BS. Sometimes, however, you just gotta say, "WTF" and go for it. Then it's just a question of how long you can go without blinking.

In some ways, I regret that Vern was thrown out of the game before he had a chance to demonstrate what he was made of. Then again, stripped of OPM, he certainly has the opportunity to step up on a peer level with us now.

At the risk of kicking a [rabid] dog when he's down, I have never been accused of being short on memory. So here's a novel thought....Vern might actually come out of pocket to take an individual on after they've publicly called him a thief. That'd be me.

What say you, Vern? Wanna step up, you bullying, blowhard hump? There, I said it and I'm glad. We paid for the right to say it and I ain't taking it back. I feel better already! :-D

Gunner

Dave said...

At the risk of kicking a [rabid] dog when he's down, I have never been accused of being short on memory. So here's a novel thought....Vern might actually come out of pocket to take an individual on after they've publicly called him a thief. That'd be me.
What say you, Vern? Wanna step up, you bullying, blowhard hump? There, I said it and I'm glad. We paid for the right to say it and I ain't taking it back. I feel better already! :-D


That would mean spending his own money. Vern is a cash arsonist with OPM.

eclipso said...

At the risk of kicking a [rabid] dog when he's down, I have never been accused of being short on memory. So here's a novel thought....Vern might actually come out of pocket to take an individual on after they've publicly called him a thief. That'd be me.
What say you, Vern? Wanna step up, you bullying, blowhard hump? There, I said it and I'm glad. We paid for the right to say it and I ain't taking it back. I feel better already! :-D




Gunner, you're my hero!

Dave said...

New article on Vern:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/08/04/226341/comment-vern-raburns-silent-swansong.html

Also a new article on the crash. It has this tidbit:
In the 30 July accident, an Eclipse 500 overran the runway at Brandywine airport in West Chester, Pennsylvania, after a flight from nearby Wings Field. The aircraft was substantially damaged after sliding down a 12m (40ft) embankment and into trees at 18:30 local time. No one was injured. NTSB investigators found 670m (2,200ft) of skid marks along the runway and did not initially discover any pre-impact aiframe, mechanical, engine control or braking malfunctions. Eclipse earlier this year alerted pilots to problems with blown tires caused by landing too fast and locking the brakes in an attempt to slow down. The Eclipse does not have an anti-skid system built into the brakes.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/08/04/226332/ntsb-investigates-eclipse-500-hawker-800-accidents.html
This sounds like Midway 2.0 particularly given that info.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

2200 foot skidmark, runway departure, and an engine that had to be drowned in fire retardent foam to be shutoff.

FAA, NTSB, Hello, is there anybody home?

FlightCenter said...

Gunner,

You deserve a 29 gun salute at the very least from the Honor Roll.

Thank you for making it clear that there are people who will still stand up to defend our rights and freedom.

I appreciate the fact that you drew the line and stood by it, even when it required significant financial sacrifice and some personal risk on your part.


You set the bar high and cleared it with style!

Bravo!

Thank you,
FlightCenter

FlightCenter said...

Welcome back "the blogger formally known as" WhyTech!

airtaximan said...

CW,

I was trying to figure out exactly what to write...

Perfect, thanks.

Once again, a few weeks ago, Eclispe 500 owners were told they could safely fly their planes, IF they listened for squeeking/rubbing noises from the throttle assembly, while moving the levers back and forth.

Hmm... I wonder how they build this failsafe noise alert into the faulty software? Pretty amazing stuff...

- the fleet should be grounded, as the airplane is unsafe - the software is faulty.

Period.

thebloggerformerlyknownasWhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

ATM,

I really try to give even Eclipse a little benefit of the doubt that we all understand that aviation can be hazardous and as such give it the approproate level of respect, but this incident, and specifically the description of the pilot/father consoling his little daughter is simply too much.

This plane does not behave in ways that are well enough understood to be effectively trained, and in the critical landing phase a pilot may know what kind of plane he is landing.

Is it a glider?

Does it have no braking effectiveness?

Are one or more engines stuck at other than idle?

After the incident/accident is 'over', can the engines be shutdown?

This is now a pattern, actually several patterns - repeating themselves and they are not good patterns.

airtaximan said...

yes...

and their "listen for noises in the throttle assembly" safety check... makes me sick.

Dave said...

I really try to give even Eclipse a little benefit of the doubt that we all understand that aviation can be hazardous and as such give it the approproate level of respect, but this incident, and specifically the description of the pilot/father consoling his little daughter is simply too much.

The are virtually brand new aircraft. They shouldn't be having all these problems. I believe the last report here says it all:
"IT SEEMS WE ARE TEST PLTS FOR THIS ACFT AND HAVE TO STRUGGLE NOT TO FILE A NASA RPT EVERY TIME WE FLY THE ACFT...IN ADDITION TO THE PROBLEMS REFERENCED IN HIS RPT, THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN PROBLEMS WITH BLEED AIR OVER TEMPS, FLAP MALFUNCTIONS, AND CRACKED WINDSHIELDS. ALL THIS IN 100 HOURS OF FLYING."

Then there's also this comment from someone else:
XM WEATHER HAS A DELAY IN THE DISPLAY OF WX/THUNDERSTORMS, MAKING THE USE OF XM WEATHER IN WX AVOIDANCE WITH RAPIDLY DEVELOPING STORMS USELESS...THE ECLIPSE 500 IS NOT SUITABLY EQUIPPED TO BE FLOWN IN ANY TYPE OF WX ENVIRONMENT THAT MIGHT POTENTIALLY DEVELOP THUNDERSTORM ACTIVITY.

All of the quotes are from here:
http://akama.arc.nasa.gov/ASRSDBOnline/QueryWizard_Display.aspx?server=ASRSO

Also this the Midway report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080612X00845&key=1
Almost exactly like Brandywine.

Dave said...

Here's some info on the DayJet mass layoffs from someone who lost their job at DayJet:
So it has boiled down to this for Dayjet. After laying over 100 people off and many resignations of key directors and managers including the Gainesville Base Manager, I now know that Dayjet will not make it. I was part of the layoffs on Monday, May 5th, 2008 without any notice or warning, we were all brought together and were not even given a chance to get our belongings. The signs were all there and I should have guessed when 3 of our key managers Kimberly, Kurt and EJ all resigned one after the other, that things were not right. Why could they not have warned the rest of us so that we could start finding employment outside. They must all be sitting back and laughing at us. It is just not fair and I am really sick over this whole thing. Rumor has it they may shut down totally in 3 months. What a shame!
http://www.jobbite.com/reviews/dayjet-services

Also I found this pre-launch DayJet interview. It explains that the DayJet membership requirement is to reduce demand so that DayJet wouldn't get overloaded with business!:
ATF: Why do I have to be a member to fly?
VH: DayJet is not for all business travelers all the time. It is for priority travel and that means we have to meet very high standards of reliability and predictability. It is very important that we be able to accommodate customers' flight requests on their first call to us. We're not requiring memberships because we're elitist, the fee will be very affordable. We're just trying to balance supply and demand by controlling the number of people using the system.

http://airtaxiflights.com/a-new-dayjet-is-dawning3.php
So riddle me this...why does DayJet still require memberships to fly? They've admitted business is going as well as it should and they admit with this that memberships cut down on business, so why intentionally keep on hurting DayJet's demand?...

uglytruth said...

Does the FPJ have a black box? Some type of data recorder in the computer? Does a box record engine / fan RPM or throttle position? What would it have recorded in the Brandywine incident?

I can't believe this "thing" is allowed to fly and endanger both passengers and people on the ground. It's sad / frustrating knowing it's just a matter of time. Sooner or later luck will run out.

If it was a car no one would buy it from a safety / reliability issue. It would also be put thru it's paces by impartial testers and reported to the public.

WhyTech said...

"XM WEATHER HAS A DELAY IN THE DISPLAY OF WX/THUNDERSTORMS, MAKING THE USE OF XM WEATHER IN WX AVOIDANCE WITH RAPIDLY DEVELOPING STORMS USELESS"

This is a well known and publicized limitation of all aviation satellite wx systems I am familiar with, and is not an Eclipse shortcoming. Wondering if this is an indirect complaint re the limitations of the Honeywell or JRC real time wx radars provided by Eclipse. IIRC the real time radar came late to the party and may be missing from some earlier acft. In any event, with their small antenna and relatively low power, these are sort of minimalist radars anyway - not something I'd want to use to pick my way through a line of storms, but more to provide guidance for the 180 turn.

WT

Dave said...

Does the FPJ have a black box? Some type of data recorder in the computer? Does a box record engine / fan RPM or throttle position? What would it have recorded in the Brandywine incident?

Avio components command a power-up built in test
(PBIT) each time the aircraft is started to perform a
diagnostic evaluation of each system. Continuous
built in testing (CBIT) monitors the aircraft during
operation. This data is also collected and stored in
a diagnostic storage unit (DSU) that allows
maintenance crews to download the data to
facilitate troubleshooting and repairs. Trend
monitoring of data collected over time by Avio can
assist maintenance crews in predicting impending
failure of a system by noting and analyzing
fluctuations in voltage, current, response time, etc.
Fleet-wide data can be used to provide feedback to
engineers and vendors to meet product
improvement goals.

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/files/pdf/Eclipse%20500%20Reliability%20and%20Maintainability%20White%20Paper.pdf

Also from the Midway incident mentioning the DSU as being the source for crash data:
An on-scene examination of the airplane was conducted. The non-volatile memory in the airplane's diagnostic storage unit (DSU) was downloaded under National Transportation Safety Board supervision and its data was sent to the airplane manufacturer for decoding.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080612X00845&key=1

This is the press release from the company providing the DSU:
http://www.navaero.com/about/press_pdfs/provide.pdf

It sounds like it runs on Windows:
http://www.navaero.com/support/faqs.php

This is on the NTSB on the DSU saying that it is similar to an FDR:
The Eclipse 500 airplane is not equipped with a cockpit voice recorder or flight data recorder (FDR), nor is it required to be, but the DSU records many of the same airplane and engine parameters that an FDR would.
http://www.charterx.com/mediafiles/store/58773/128578631416620980.pdf

eclipso said...

uglytruth said...
Does the FPJ have a black box? Some type of data recorder in the computer?


NO!!!!

Dave said...

This is a well known and publicized limitation of all aviation satellite wx systems I am familiar with, and is not an Eclipse shortcoming.

Actually reading all the comments I got that it was because Eclipse wasn't FIKI certified (now Eclipse is technically, just few - if any - owners actually have it), it matter because it was particularly important for the FPJ to avoid the weather due to both icing issues and moisture issues. It doesn't affect aircraft that are better built.

eclipso said...

....perhaps it should have a built-in priest, monk, evangilist or something similar according to your religion

eclipso said...

Last Rites NG?

Dave said...

....perhaps it should have a built-in priest, monk, evangilist or something similar according to your religion

I don't even think a young priest and an old priest could help Avio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4W0t_fWJoE

gadfly said...

A few hours ago, on the earlier thread, I mentioned the “trauma” inflicted on a little girl, the daughter, evidently according to reports, of the pilot of the little bird that ran off the end of the runway . . . only stopping short of a busy highway because of some trees. In one of the comments, buried deep in the reports, the pilot/father spent an hour comforting his five-year-old daughter . . . both having escaped death by a few feet (no thanks to an aircraft with engine(s) running that would have completed the event with tragic results, left to its own devices).

It’s most interesting to me, that the major news organizations left out the little detail that the “second” person on board just happened to be a little five-year-old girl. And that she was the daughter of the pilot.

Think it through . . . you’ll get the picture, maybe, if you ever had a daughter who put total trust in you as her “Daddy”.

So, using the internet, I looked up the definition of trauma, and made sure I watched for statements that included “children” (having eighteen grand-children, plus one in the hangar, of my own) . . . and things related. One of the statements included the following: “unexpected or unpredictable”.

Well, it takes no genius to figure out that if this incident were “unexpected or unpredictable”, we could all conclude that the trauma inflicted on this little girl was an unusual event. But since “Midway” (not 1942, but 2008) had occurred once before, at least, and had been put down almost as a “non issue” by the manufacturer/assembler (whatever), we have a most opportune set of facts ready to seek damages.

All reports lowered the “impact” of the news report because no one was killed or physically injured. But I will speak on behalf a that little girl, although not a qualified expert witness in the legal sense, and state that the trauma that she “may” have experienced is worthy of major consideration.

Up until a few days ago, the entire scenario smelled rotten. But now, in my mind, it’s taken on almost a crusade . . . and we need to look at this “enterprise” from the viewpoint of the impact it may have on “ALL” of the people involved, from those (and their families) that work at the “mother factory”, to those (and their families) who innocently step aboard (or “duck aboard”) to take a ride, at high expense, in something that the FAA had no right to approve for human use.

gadfly

(Whatever it takes!)

gadfly said...

A black box? . . . so far, no one has figured out how to filter out the voice of a little girl, while her "Daddy" does everything in his power, to bring this thing to a stop.

Frankly, at the moment, I'm very glad that such a device was not aboard.

gadfly

(At one time, I could have put together such a device . . . but that was long, long ago . . . and I'm glad I've forgotten how.)

eclipso said...

Gad,

As a father and grandfather I think you are absolutely correct. Had it been my daughter or grandkids, we'd all be reading about it on KOB....not the flight scenario, but my arrest for assault report

Dave said...

It’s most interesting to me, that the major news organizations left out the little detail that the “second” person on board just happened to be a little five-year-old girl. And that she was the daughter of the pilot.

I wonder if she'll fly again or if she'll fly again, just not with her pilot father.

But since “Midway” (not 1942, but 2008) had occurred once before, at least, and had been put down almost as a “non issue” by the manufacturer/assembler (whatever), we have a most opportune set of facts ready to seek damages.

It was the political "silly season" and "grandstanding" according to Eclipse. Eclipse clearly has much to hide, so it tries everything it can to stop things that would provide transparency.

Up until a few days ago, the entire scenario smelled rotten. But now, in my mind, it’s taken on almost a crusade . . . and we need to look at this “enterprise” from the viewpoint of the impact it may have on “ALL” of the people involved, from those (and their families) that work at the “mother factory”, to those (and their families) who innocently step aboard (or “duck aboard”) to take a ride, at high expense, in something that the FAA had no right to approve for human use.

If all these problems are happening with the Eclipse now with the new and nearly new aircraft, imagine what happens once these aircraft have some hours on them.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Gad, I have to agree with you.

My child and I love flying, and I cannot fathom having to comfort a child after a near-death experience, especially in a plane like the Eclipse where there has been no lack of focus on the many shortcomings - I refuse to believe any Eclipse owner/pilot is unaware of the criticisms raised here.

A pox on the houses at Flying, AOPA, Plane and Pilot, Turbine Pilot, etc., for not getting to the bottom of this and pointing out the hazards of this aircraft.

Similarly, a pox on the FAA and NTSB for failing to do their duty.

One incident over ten years is bad luck - this is not bad luck.

Two loss of thrust control accidents in less than 8 weeks, with less than 250 planes in the field, with less than 30,000 fleet hours is unacceptable.

This plane is popping tires faster than Linsday Lohan pops pills - it is time for real action from the nfolks who are supposed to protect us.

Dave said...

Eclipse won nearly $800K from Composite Systems:
http://www.nmcourts.gov/caselookup/app
Why don't they use that to pay the depositors? That judgment should pay for around half a dozen depositors.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Meant to add the panel has more flashing lights than a stroll down Fremont Street in Vegas, and the SDR reports are soundingly increslingly frustrated.

It is high time this plane be reviewed from the radome to the static wicks and any unsafe items be fixed - this is a plane after all, it can kill people.

gadfly said...

Dave

The biggest hero in a little girl's mind is her own Daddy. If he can't do it, no one can. So, for all time, her confidence in flying is based on that trust. Even the Bible has some severe warnings about those who offend the little ones . . . and the punishment suggested is anything but "nice".

gadfly

(But this is about flying . . . and we'll keep it at that.)

Dave said...

The biggest hero in a little girl's mind is her own Daddy. If he can't do it, no one can. So, for all time, her confidence in flying is based on that trust. Even the Bible has some severe warnings about those who offend the little ones . . . and the punishment suggested is anything but "nice".

I think of Night of the Hunter and Eclipse being like The Preacher.

airsafetyman said...

In some of the glass cockpit airplanes a memory chip identical to the roughly 1"x1"x1/8" digital camera card is used. It can be downloaded in place via a usb port in some instances or removed and put in a card reader in other cases. Because of its light weight it often survives a crash if there is no fire. It is not TSOed as a flight recorder but an awful lot of information can be retrieved.

WhyTech said...

"In some of the glass cockpit airplanes a memory chip "

Even my half glass PC-12, a nearly 20 year old design, and a mere turboprop had this.

WT

airsafetyman said...

"Even my half glass PC-12, a nearly 20 year old design, and a mere turboprop had this."

A lot of single-engine recips have the system. The point is that the data available to be downloaded is far more extensive than the early model flight recorders used on 60s 70s and 80s jet transports.

Charity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave Ivedorne said...

a pox on the FAA and NTSB for failing to do their duty

FAA, yes. And make it smallpox.

NTSB, not so much - they have a different purpose than FAA. In the wake of Midway 1.0, NTSB did apply pressure on the FAA to ground the fleet, and FAA followed through. Midway 2.0 is still quite recent - I'd be surprised if there aren't some fevered conversations going on at NTSB as we "speak", with action to follow.

We can hope.

IANAL

gadfly said...
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gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

Dave

Between the "LOVE" and "HATE" of the principal character, maybe we can take on the roll of the character played by "Lillian Gish".

Frankly, I don't think anyone at Eclipse has thought past the money and ego connected with the little bird . . . but maybe we will have changed the direction of the discussion to higher values.

gadfly

(A picture in "black and white".)

uglytruth said...

Can't even imagine, what was going thru Daddy's mind as he was bouncing down the hill heading for trees. No parent want harm of any kind to come to their child. He may have been comforting her but I'm sure she was comforting him also.

Dave said...

If Eclipse stays in the air and isn't grounded, will it lose the single pilot certification? In reading the Midway interview:
http://jets.ru/monitoring/2008/07/23/eclipse
It sounds like that made a difference with the plane not crashing. In the Brandywine case there was no co-pilot and a crash. It doesn't seem like the Eclipse is safe with two professional pilots let alone one professional pilot or even a non-professional pilot. It seems like almost immediately after the so-called planes leave the factory floor there's some kind of problem and it only takes a hundred hours or more for a major problem. Does anyone have a guestimate of how many hours were on the Brandywine plane before it crashed?

Dave said...

I had been thinking about this on the way home. If Eclipse was to lose its TC, wouldn't that be a refund event where depositors could claim 90% of their deposit (I imagine Eclipse would say a lesser amount like $100K, but still a refund)? Eclipse made rather a big deal both contractually and publicly about the importance of the TC, so wouldn't the loss of TC conversely mean the depositors were due some money back?

I believe the depositors could make a case for a refund for everything except for the pre-TC amount they put up and Eclipse could make a counter-arguement that the depositors are only entitled to the amount of the deposit required once Eclipse achieved TC (for Geiger I believe it was $75K). It would be up to a judge to determine whether to side with the depositors, Eclipse or somewhere in the middle.

Dave Ivedorne said...

If Eclipse stays in the air and isn't grounded, will it lose the single pilot certification?

I can't see that happening. Aircraft lighter than 12,500 lbs qualify for single pilot, with some single pilot exceptions above that weight (for extremely similar aircraft). By every account, the raw flying qualities of the 6,000 lbs FPJ are exemplary - there is nothing in that regard which would make it unsafe with one pilot, while being safe with two.

It's the FPJ's systems that create the numerous hazards - unfortunately, ALL of the systems. And no number of pilots can make that safe, with the little bird in its present state. And until relative safety [1] has been achieved, FAA should issue new CofA's - ones that require an 'EXPERIMENTAL' placard & decals, and the limitations associated with having that cert.

[1] When I speak of relative safety, I do not mean a situation where a pilot feels compelled to fill out a NASA form only every 5th or 6th flight, but rather relative to other twin engined aircraft below 12,500 lbs.

IANAL

Dave said...

It's the FPJ's systems that create the numerous hazards - unfortunately, ALL of the systems. And no number of pilots can make that safe, with the little bird in its present state. And until relative safety [1] has been achieved, FAA should issue new CofA's - ones that require an 'EXPERIMENTAL' placard & decals, and the limitations associated with having that cert.

I would imagine that would make insurance both difficult and expensive and would have the same effective impact as requiring two pilots or grounding the aircraft.

Dave Ivedorne said...

If Eclipse stays in the air and isn't grounded, will it lose the single pilot certification?...

...no number of pilots can make that safe, with the little bird in its present state.


Continuing that thought, that's exactly what the FPJ needs:

No Pilot Certification.

No pilots, no flights. No flights, no incidents. No incidents, no crashes. No crashes, no fatalities.

No problem...

IANAL

Orville said...

The 'FIKI' birds at Oshkosh (s/n 200 & s/n 266 - 266 being the first off the manufacturing line) both proudly displayed the 'EXPERIMENTAL' banner.

I AM NOT VERN said...

"I think of Night of the Hunter and Eclipse being like The Preacher."

I watched that movie about a year ago. It was the WORST movie I've ever seen:)

Now on to important matters. The FAA will not remove the TC for the E500! Period. End of discussion. Why? The government NEVER admits mistakes. Never. Period. End of discussion.

They may make like extremely difficult for owners and for EAC, but they will NEVER pull the TC.

And no, I'm still not Vern.

airsafetyman said...

"They may make like extremely difficult for owners and for EAC, but they will NEVER pull the TC."

Its been done before.

John said...

Dave asks: >>"Does anyone have a guestimate of how many hours were on the Brandywine plane before it crashed?"<<<

333MY or SN103 was registered on 1/15/2008. It spent much of the spring as a "sale" plane on Controller. Free Access FlightAware data begins in April. Between April and its incident it has just over 50 hours of FlightAware records. Non recorded flights do occur (between Philadelphia area fields), but the sequence of take-offs and landing indicate most, or virtually all, major flights have been recorded.

It spent April 11- May 5 at the Albany service center (retrofit?). It also went to Albany on July 2 through 19. It flew to Colorado on July 22, but did not visit ALBQ. It has flown to Florida, but has not stopped in KGNV.

FlightCenter said...

N333MY is serial #103.

That means it was delivered as an Avio aircraft. It is unlikely that it has received the Avio NG retrofit as #103 was one of the last Avio aircraft delivered.

Eclipse delivered the aircraft on Jan 15, 2008.

Avio has multiple non-volatile memory chips that record almost all the flight data for the aircraft.

This is one of the advantages of an integrated flight deck. Eclipse (and the NTSB) will have all the flight data (but no CVR data) they need to understand exactly what happened during the landing incident.

Dave said...

Now on to important matters. The FAA will not remove the TC for the E500! Period. End of discussion. Why? The government NEVER admits mistakes. Never. Period. End of discussion.

The thing is that its not "the government," but many different competing government agencies. For instance with Oberstar he is in the legislative branch and controls the purse strings of the executive branch (FAA) and can do miscellaneous other things. Also within the executive branch the NTSB has been critical of the FAA and raised concerns about the FPJ. Then within the FAA there's also the matter of rank-and-file employees versus senior management personnel, where clearly there has been differences. The TC might not get revoked, but it wouldn't be because the government is one big monolithic organization.

Dave said...

333MY or SN103 was registered on 1/15/2008. It spent much of the spring as a "sale" plane on Controller. Free Access FlightAware data begins in April. Between April and its incident it has just over 50 hours of FlightAware records. Non recorded flights do occur (between Philadelphia area fields), but the sequence of take-offs and landing indicate most, or virtually all, major flights have been recorded.
It spent April 11- May 5 at the Albany service center (retrofit?). It also went to Albany on July 2 through 19. It flew to Colorado on July 22, but did not visit ALBQ. It has flown to Florida, but has not stopped in KGNV.


WOW! About 50 hours. I can't wait to hear what the NTSB Chair has to say about this. He raised the issue of only a few hours on an aircraft with less than 300 hours last time, now something even more serious happened to an aircraft with way fewer hours. That's great info John.

Dave said...

That means it was delivered as an Avio aircraft. It is unlikely that it has received the Avio NG retrofit as #103 was one of the last Avio aircraft delivered.

It would seem this accident would force Eclipse to retrofit all the remaining aircraft to NG instead of it being at their convenience as they are claiming it is now. Then again, NG might not fix the problems anyway.

Orville said...

As much as I believe the FADEC software is flawed - I think we're jumping to conclusions here. Calling this thing Midway 2.0 is a bit of a stretch. We haven't heard from the pilot on the details like we did with Midway. The departure from the runway could turn out to be simple pilot error - short runway, wet surface, etc. The fact that the engine couldn't be killed doesn't mean the FADEC caused the accident - it simply points out yet another flaw in the programming.

Dave said...

The fact that the engine couldn't be killed doesn't mean the FADEC caused the accident - it simply points out yet another flaw in the programming.

I called it Midway 2.0 because of Avio, which the FADEC is a subset of Avio. So yes, it might not be the FADEC, but it most likely was Avio. We know there's a half mile long skid mark follwed by a jet engine that couldn't be shut off and that's why I call it Midway 3.0. This might be due to some other programming besides the FADEC, but it is all the same to me as it is a part of Avio.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

As I recall, one of EASA's concerns was that in the absence of electrical power, there is no thrust control OR firewall/pylon fuel cutoff.

It is conceivable that the accident pilot killed the electrical power before attempting to shutdown the engines - that may leave the engines unctrollable and also unable to be shutdown - we need one of our owners in the know to confirm/deny that to be sure.

It is all speculation until we have an NTSB preliminary to go by and I suspect the Hawker crash will be first since it had so many fatalities.

What we do have though are reports of almost a half mile skidmark and the fire department having to foam at least one engine in order to get it to shutdown.

The tires and brakes are known issues, the landing performance is a known issue as a result, systems failures (both real and imagined in terms of CAS messages) are known issues, pilot workload is known to be high due to the lack of certain automated systems - all this is from the SDR database, the few reports about the preemie jet and the training we have, and the now growing number of incident/accident reports.

I think Dave is probably on to something about the different outcome here with that of Midway only 60 days ago. Midway had a trained crew (essentially, two profesional pilots), the Brandywine plane was owner flown, single-pilot.

The lack of planned Avio NfG automation (as well as what most of us would consider necessary automation and situational awareness in a modern jet aircraft), coupled with the reportedly alarming regularity of CAS messages, with a small-ish runway, wet conditions, etc., may simply have overwhelmed the only pilot on-board - add to that the airplane MAY have been behaving poorly, that is to say, not doing as commanded.

It is inconceivable to me that these jets are being basically 'beta' tested by the die-hard faithful following - experiencing random CAS messages, premature systems failures, etc., at such an alarming rate and other than the immediate aftermath of Midway, no serious or significant action has been forthcoming from the Feds.

I am looking to the NTSB to show some real leadership here and when, not if, they ground the fleet this time, I hope they will strongly suggest a full TC review and a suspension of deliveries until everyone knows just what kind of a airplane and what kinds of issues (benign to serious) we are actually dealing with.

I hope too that perhaps the intrepid Ms. DiPiazza can find the accident pilot and get some good info - the traditional aviation press is apparently too busy trading journalistic integrity for advertising dollars.

AvidPilot said...

I heard from a position holder that an Eclipse owner had one engine start to "shudder" during a descent a few days ago.

It seems the problem was caused by "carbon buildup". The engine has 250 hours on it.

The fix - P&W has to replace the engine with a loaner until the engine can be repaired. The loaner must then have the Fadec adjusted by Eclipse mechanics. Total AOG time is "around a week". I don't believe the aircraft is back in service yet.

Anyway, these things happen but what this points out is that a buyer of an Eclipse is totally tethered to ABQ. If Eclipse doesn't have time to send out an emergency response team, you're stuck until they do. With over 200 airplanes in service and really only one service center (let's face it, there really is just ONE) you better have some clout, or take a number and sit tight for days, or weeks.

Eclipse buyers are big boys and they are either aware of the risks they are taking in buying this product, or they are boneheads. Personally, I think it's a combination of both. Either way, spending a lot of time with your airplane AOG is one of the "hidden costs" you have to add to the purchase price.

gadfly said...

Unfortunately, even "boneheads" take family and friends for rides in their aereoplanes.

gadfly

(Come Josephine in my flying machine . . . and UP we go! . . . or did I get it backwards?)

Dave said...

Eclipse buyers are big boys and they are either aware of the risks they are taking in buying this product, or they are boneheads. Personally, I think it's a combination of both. Either way, spending a lot of time with your airplane AOG is one of the "hidden costs" you have to add to the purchase price.

I don't think you can paint all buyers the same. Many people bought before the aircraft entered service. Look at Geiger. He became an Eclipse buyer way back in 2000 if I'm not mistaken. It is only now that the fleet has actually flown that we are now seeing the results of that. I can't imagine someone buying an Eclipse now in 2008, but what happened years ago is much different.

baron95 said...

fred said...
freedom ...

no one !

or at least not one to be officially allowed to do so ...!

still this pesky Easa Cert. in the way ...!


Try again. These are N-number planes with an FAA TC. They can be maintained by any FAA certificated repair station which includes by treat repair stations in EU countries. No problems there.

It is no different than any US plane owner flying their plane to Europe and needing repairs while there. Biz as usual.

baron95 said...

Dave said ... NTSB investigators found 670m (2,200ft) of skid marks along the runway

2,200 ft is the landing distance at MLW over 50'in standard conditions for the EA500 according to AOPA recent article. That probably means a ground roll of 1,500 ft. I know the July 30 accident runway conditions were wet and the temperature was 80F. Still the ground roll should not be more than 2,000 ft under those conditions.

For the plane to leave 2,200 ft of skid marks, it was either landing too fast or the engines were producing more than idle power or both.

baron95 said...

Dave I. said ... By every account, the raw flying qualities of the 6,000 lbs FPJ are exemplary - there is nothing in that regard which would make it unsafe with one pilot, while being safe with two.

It's the FPJ's systems that create the numerous hazards - unfortunately, ALL of the systems.


The FAA looks very closely at pilot workload in determining if a plane is single-pilot eligeable, not just flying qualities.

I strongly believe that, in it's present form, with no coupled approaches, no coupled descent, multiple instances of autopilot disconnects, etc, the EA500 is NOT SUITABLE for single pilot operation in the IFR environment. I think the FAA needs to conduct an immediate review and forbid single-pilot operation at least in the IFR environment if not all together, until such time as the avionics and autopilot functionality can actually relieve the pilot's workload.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Do we even know yet whether Brandywine was an attemptd take off or an attempted landing? Or an attempted baulked landing?

fred said...

baron

sometime i really believe you are either blind or you confirm the saying " no better blind than the one who don't want to see !"


so to your :

#These are N-number planes with an FAA TC. They can be maintained by any FAA certificated repair station which includes by treat repair stations in EU countries #


could you be kind enough to explain me a few things :

= N° ???
why european should care more about N° reg. that the ones coming from Kazakhstan or Zimbabwe ?

i agree that there is bilateral agreement , but in the case of the Fpj it just DOESN'T work !

as you may know , something called responsibilities can occur quite fast on our side of ocean ...

the Fpj has already a good reputation of something "it is better to avoid approaching ..."

so if you mix it with different levels of responsibilities , one can obtain a weird legal mix getting problematic (and deadly for any business ?) very fast ...

here , in E.U. , we have 2 types of doing :
the non-professionals :
that sounds very much like EAC , but it doesn't serve anything anywhere on E.U. land , as far as i know at the very time of this writing THERE IS NO SERVICE CENTER FOR EAC/ETRICK in europe !

unlike what you seems to be willing to believe , a service center in E.U. will comply FIRST with Easa , then may be with FAA standards (with all the shadows around E500 cert. , i would venture into saying : this is better than bad !)

because service center in E.U. are firstly dealing with European customers ... ( if you think that any E.U. center is waiting for N° reg. for doing business , i would advise your mental health to be checked !)

the Pros = they are pros , so they are binded by an obligation of results , which means simply nothing else than : if ANY pros on E.U. soil is repairing , maintaining or checking a Fpj , THEN its RESPONSIBILITY is engaged !

so the multi-millions $ question is :
do you think anyone would be mad enough to risk his career , job , earning , future , etc ...etc... in approaching something poised with such ???

if on top of that , you add the litigious past of EAC concerning Warranty (which has to be done in specific centers according to EAC!) it implicate so many argumentation on "who's done what" and "who should have" ...

that any person on the side of the ocean who has more than a simple NON-negative IQ level should and will avoid touching the Fpj for any reason , if not discharged in advance by owner or be direct owner ...!!!

you see often it is good to have opinion ...
it's even better to be able to fight for your opinion ...
sometimes , you may even have a miracle happen =someone who you never seen will stand the fight for you , just for the sake of humanity ... (yes Monsieur Rich , it is you ...!)

but on some occasion , it take real gutts to have the strength
to admit something simple :
"i have been wrong !"


so whatever gesticulation you are making , your knowledge of what is going on OUT of USA is very deficient ... and NO you are not a model ... as it simply doesn't exist anywhere !

the Fpj potential career in Euroland is easy to resume = triple 0 ! nada ! zip !

some air-enthusiasts clubs may have it ... but as anything touted by past and present management at EAC/Etrick = just NO WAY !

airsafetyman said...

"Try again. These are N-number planes with an FAA TC. They can be maintained by any FAA certificated repair station"

Several European service centers do have an FAA Repair Station Certificate. The airplane can also legally be maintained by a US liscensed A&P mechanic working in Europe. The problem is two fold: the warranty states that the maintenance has to be performed by an Eclipse Service Center, of which there are none in Europe, and a European service center with an FAA Repair Station certificate would have to have mechanics with formal training on the Eclipse on their staff and be willing to work on the airplane. After doing the work they then could try and get money out of Roel who can't even pay the rent in Gainesville? Not to mention the liability incurred when a highly-probable serious accident occurs. I don't think a quality shop would go near the airplane.

H.M.E said...

Youtube: AVweb Editors' Summary AirVenture Oshkosh 2008

Comments by Russ Niles and Paul Bertorelli on Eclipse starting at 5:30 till 7:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIsB2J_m-wI

fred said...

airsafetyman ...

one of the basic law of the European Union :

Professional doing a service HAVE to bear responsibilities for their work !

it is not if a court decide , it is not a game where they can claim "we didn't know ..." after running out of luck ...

they are professionals ,which automatically implicate they have to do the job right in the first attempt or face the consequences !

so once again , who would be mad enough to get trained to service a plane , when the manufacturer himself acknowledge "it isn't finished " how can you get trained and certified while what you are supposed to get trained on is not even known in its own full complexity to the very same peoples who made it ??? and even worse if you are living some thousands miles away ???

airsafetyman said...

Fred, you are right. Why would any service center do business with a manufacturer who files suit at the drop of a hat? The good service centers in Europe have all the business they can handle. Why risk everything they have worked for? It doesn't make sense.

fred said...

asm :

yes it doesn't any sens ...!

and worse :

the fact to be trained on something not fully known yet is called what ??

parapsychology ? caballistic ? Mme Irma will tell ya future ?

just a joke , like mostly everything with Fpj ...

paul said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
paul said...

Type Certificate action is not unprecidented.

On June 6, 1979 the FAA suspended the type certificate for the DC-10.

Shane Price said...

Freedom,

It was a 'landing'.

By that I mean the pilot was attempting to put the plane on the ground, and walk away.

The FPJ sure reminds us that 'any landing you walk away from is a good one'.

Me, I fail to understand why more people don't 'walk away' as soon as they see it's an FPJ on the ramp....

Shane

Shane Price said...

For the blog.

Parting shot from Vern, reference Brandywine.

"It was the pilot's fault"

There you go, everything is OK. The NTSB have not said a word, but Vern blames the pilot.

Let me remind our readership that the pilot was giving his FIVE year old daughter a little trip on the Fisher Price Jet. Does anyone here believe that a father would put one of his own children at risk?

(OK, I'll allow that some of us might buy an FPJ for one of our teenagers, and hope for the worst...)

But your five year old daughter? Take risks with 'daddy's little girl'?

Not going to happen.

Shane

fred said...

yes , shane ...!

to take inboard your own kids is already something putting a new definition to :

"how to be a good father "

please , someone on the other side ...
could you put an end to this before it become tragic ???

airtaximan said...

"Does anyone here believe that a father would put one of his own children at risk?"

He put her in that plane...

- I know people who state openly: I will never get in that plane... people who fly hundreds of hours in charter every year.

What Vern is saying (if he said what you wrote), is.. it was pilot error that caused the accident. How he could say this... is beyond me.

Dave said...

More updates from Brandywine:
http://www.pottsmerc.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19893271&BRD=1674&PAG=461&dept_id=18041&rfi=6
The prelim report will come out sometime next week or the week after.

Shane Price said...

ATman,

What Vern is saying (if he said what you wrote),

My source in the matter has an excellent record for telling the truth.

Unlike Vern....

Shane

Dave said...

What Vern is saying (if he said what you wrote), is.. it was pilot error that caused the accident. How he could say this... is beyond me.

He's probably doing the flying world a favor by turning everyone off to Eclipse. Eclipse has been doing that repeatedly since the tires started failing and did so with Midway and now apparently with Brandywine. Eclipse has already sued die-hards with the blogger lawsuit, so between blaming the Eclipse owners and various other ways Eclipse has shafted them, few people will want to sign up for that and those that already have will want to get out. I think it probably help if it was broadcast far and wide how many times Eclipse has blamed their own customers for Eclipse's own failings as well as how many times Eclipse has shafted existing owners.

airsafetyman said...

From the Eclipse web site: "Oshkosh, wi - Eclipse Aviation, manufacturer of the world's first very light jet (VLJ), today announced to its customers at the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) AirVenture 2008 that Harbour Air of Vancouver, British Columbia, will be Eclipse's first Designated Service Center for the Eclipse 500® in North America.

Harbour Air will provide Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO) support for Eclipse 500 operators in Western Canada, with the opportunity to expand into Eastern Canada and Alaska. Harbour Air will also support service requirements for Eclipse 500 operators in the Northwestern United States until the Eclipse Service Center (ESC) network in the United States is fully implemented.

"We are very excited to offer our customers greater capacity for service and modifications," said John Ricciardelli, Eclipse Aviation's vice president of ownership experience. "Harbour Air offers complete MRO capability and a strong legacy in aviation. They have supported Eclipse for some time, and I'm thrilled to welcome them to our North American network."

Harbour Air's facility at the Vancouver International Airport will provide scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, including critical Aircraft On Ground (AOG) and Mobile Response Team (MRT) support. Harbour Air will also perform Flight Into Known Icing (FIKI) and Avio NG 1.5 modifications. Harbour Air already employs technicians certified by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and trained by Eclipse Aviation.

Harbour Air will extend the existing ESC network, which includes service centers in Albuquerque, N.M.; Gainesville, Fla.; and Albany, N.Y. ETIRC Aviation oversees two Designated Service Centers in Europe: JetSupport in Amsterdam, The Netherlands; and Aerlyper in Madrid, Spain."

A new concept!: Designated Service Centers! That way you don't have to worry about paying the rent!

fred said...

and trained by Eclipse Aviation :


gosh , that is something ...
Mayday , Mayday , Mayday ...
young kids and women first ! ;-))

Aerlyper in Madrid, Spain :

in french , there is a saying = someone building castles in spain :
a kind of lunatic who is always talking about "some" parts of the world where grass is always greener , girls are gorgeous , wonder of the world for free , etc...etc...

no lunatic isn't vern's fifth middle name ...!

but due to economic situation in today world in Spain , i would be very worried ...
it is even worse than UK ...
the bank crisis there would make the NorthernRock a sunday-after-mass-joke ...!

so as to get going in Spain , why not , but with what money ???

Dave said...

Here's the profile of the local counsel for the out of state subpoena:
http://www.rodey.com/attorneys/WJA.html
He specializes in BK and commercial litigation. Is the subpoena related to another supplier lawsuit?

fred said...

on the new site for Fpj

i have read something interesting :

if you go to Avio NG (strange , i thought they dropped the baby ?)

you can see " VIRUTAL(this spelling) integration ..."

may be this is where lies all the problems , they got confused between "Virtual" and "Virutal"

my english isn't good enough to make the difference (??!!) but it sounds pretty close to "Virus" to me ...
may be that the reason the software always reboot itself ....-))

Shane Price said...

Dave,

Pretty soon there will have to be a separate blog for EAC legal matters.

I don't know about you, but I can't keep up with those who have hired counsel and gone to 'war'.

Let's hope some of them remember a 'winning lawyer' when it comes to dealing with EAC. It is of course our very own Norman Malinski P.A. He can be found at:-

20803 Biscayne Boulevard
Suite 200
Aventura, FL 33180
Phone: (305) 937-4242
Fax: (305) 937-4261

At the very least, he deserves that little 'plug' from me.

Shane
PS And tell him you got his name from the blog...

Dave said...

you can see " VIRUTAL(this spelling) integration ..."
may be this is where lies all the problems , they got confused between "Virtual" and "Virutal"


It must mean virus. Then again this just shows how sloppy Eclipse is. Is it any surprise Eclipse is having all these problems when they're so careless?

Oh also here is Matt Brown giving a presentation of excuses:
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/eclipse500/operation/avio-ng.php
As an outsider who has no skin in the game I find it funny seeing Eclipse take hundreds of thousands of dollars from people and then literally tell people "This is what you get." Eclipse said their system would be like the F-22 and now they're saying "We've met our contractual requirements for an FMS" (not an exact quote but Brown does say something similar). Eclipse didn't just promise an FMS, but they promised to deliver the best FMS...now they aren't even giving their customers the G1000. Right around 24:10 is when it starts "what you wont get." Vern even makes an appearance and Brown literally says "I feel your pain!" Eclipse says producing 30 pilots a month; qualified 240 maint tech.

Dave said...

DayJet seems pretty desparate for customer stories:
http://www.dayjet.com/CustomerStories/
DayJet being DayJet, their premier customer story is from a lobbyist.

julius said...

Thank you Gunner, Mr. Malinski -
you saved 29 souls and the free speech! Thank you!

I was not affected by VR's attack although I am relieved that this case is closed.

Dave said...

Also Brandywine seems to be one of the very issues EASA raised:
The Eclipse 500 has an unusual design feature with respect to engine control. The engines FADEC’s are electrically powered by the aircraft electrical system instead of a dedicated and independent electrical source on each engine. This means that in case of total electrical failure the engines will maintain the power setting that was present at the moment of the failure. This also leads to the loss of shut-off capability...Therefore there should be a new required standard being defined for an aircraft with a novel design like the Eclipse 500 in order to make sure that the safety level is not reduced. Alternatively, Eclipse Aviation could opt for a design that is similar to existing designs (time unlimited and dedicated FADEC power supply and a mechanical fuel shut-off means).
http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/c/doc/Consultation/Eclipse%20500%20%20Special%20condition.pdf

Now see what happened in Brandywine:
The pilot, whose identity was not released, would not comment on what led to the accident. Goshen Fire Chef Grant Everhart said one of the aircraft's engines continued to run following the crash and could not be shut down, forcing firefighters to drown the engine in foam to get it to stop.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=08c9cb5b-68ff-4a4e-a133-52a2aab33624

EASA and the FAA only seem to have commented on the danger of the aircraft while in the air, but this same "feature" makes the aircraft dangerous on the ground. It isn't just a matter of being at 41,000 feet and being able to land before the battery runs out, but being at 0 feet and not turning into a jet car that can't be shut off by the driver potentially resulting in a fatal accident.

airtaximan said...

shane:

I was not doubting your source(s)... just stating I did not know if that was what Vern said...

Judging by the sounds of the reports, the problem was similar, if not identical to Midway. Not surprising, as many stated here, the pilot probably thought best to try to stop the plane instead of deal with runaway engines/avionics in the air.

What a nightmare.

Once again, knowing this problem exists, they should ground the fleet. KNowing this problem exists, they should NEVER have foisted the BS safety check on their customers.. the one where you listen for noise or sqeeks in the throttle. This is a software problem...

GROUND THE FLEET
fix the plane

eclipso said...

From the EAC website:

Preflight
As your virtual copilot, Avio NG goes to work as soon as power is applied to the Eclipse 500,


And quits as soon as mass foam is applied.

julius said...

Dave,
you can see " VIRUTAL(this spelling) integration ..."
may be this is where lies all the problems , they got confused between "Virtual" and "Virutal"

currently EAC shows only a revised version - now without the powerpoint presentation and without objectives and anticipated
dates.
And Matt has some jokes about landings and blown tires...
Matt does not state "keyboard are superfluous on ACs" but he is very, very close to that.
Its worthwhile to listen to it.
Perhaps the presentation will be "improved".

There is the link to the open ETIRC pages:
http://www.etirc.com/about/management.htm

(copyright 2004 - old version!)
Everything without serif (arial types instead of times roman now ...???)!
Roel has no... what about the actual ETRIC pages?

julius

GettingReady2FileSuit said...

Was on the conference call under "alais" cover... My favorite question: Does EQUIPSE expect to pay any refunds in calendar year 2008?

Answer - only if Roel Pied-pipper can round up some new round of suckers to invest.

My read - class action lawsuit / involuntary bankruptcy being organized as we speak.

Dave said...

Oh, I just re-read EASA and they point out what could happen after landing:
Furthermore, the fail fixed failure mode of the FADEC in this condition is useless if it is not possible to control and shut down the engine after landing.
http://www.easa.eu.int/ws_prod/c/doc/Consultation/Eclipse%20500%20%20Special%20condition.pdf

Eclipse just went totally cheap in the Eclipse construction and then in an insult to both aviation and technology, Eclipse claims to be making aviation high tech. There's nothing wrong with integration itself, just you have to have some sort of backup. Eclipse just to cut down on the weight and the price left out so much safety equipment. Eclipse probably knows that if they had built a safe aircraft, it wouldn't have matched contractual specs and it would have cost more to build...bet Eclipse probably felt it was better to just hit the performance targets regardless of how dangerous the aircraft was.

Dave said...

Answer - only if Roel Pied-pipper can round up some new round of suckers to invest.

Eclipse - Customer Last

GettingReady2FileSuit said...

On the conference call, there was one caller that has position #403 along with 2 FPJ-400 deposits. All told approximately $1mm in deposits with EAC. He asked "Does EAC have enough money to make it thru production of my aircraft?"

Roel answered - unless we raise more money, NO.

Additional nifty answer by EAC. Question - "Is EAC still selling and taking new deposits?" Answer - YES.

So what we have here is a company that is taking deposits, not refunding as required by contract, and openly admitting that there are not enough $$$ to continue unless additional capital is obtained.

Sounds like cut and dried fraud to me.

Orville said...

GR2FS -

I agree with the "cut and dried fraud" comment. But - who in their right mind put down deposits for not 1 - but 2 400's given the current situation and history?

Dave said...

I agree with the "cut and dried fraud" comment. But - who in their right mind put down deposits for not 1 - but 2 400's given the current situation and history?

I believe there is fraud going on at Eclipse, but not for that. If what Roel said was true, that sounds more like the possibility of forcing involuntary BK. Then again, Eclipse might already have the papers drawn up (based on what Vern said before, it sounds like the papers have already been drawn up before and would just need to be updated) and is just waiting for the right time to BK. Roel (along with sidekick Vern) does appear to be in the catbird seat by being the largest owner of Eclipse, the only licensor, being chairman and being CEO, but at the same time that means ETIRC has tremendous expsure legally. However, I don't think ETIRC has much behind the curtain, so ETIRC it wouldn't matter if ETIRC got a huge judgment against it (plus it is in a foreign country making it even harder to enforce any judgment). Roel - being in europe - probably figures he can do whatever he wants since his personal assets are safe even if the corporate veil could be pierced and he gets a judgment against him personally in the US.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Luckily the Fat lady has stamina.

Take you time Roelburn, she will wait.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

I wonder whether the FAA is fulfilling it's ICAO responsibilities as state of register concerning the Partial Eclipses darkening the corners of Europe's hangars?

Does the FAA feel responsible for the operation of US licensed pilots in N registered aircraft in other countries airspace? What about when they are not meeting the ICAO or local airspace requirements. If you file an IFR flight plan in an EA500 and have a DME distance anywhere on your route, your flight is illegal.

If you file IFR and fly an instrument approach with R-NAV waypoints or altitude above FL190 you are breaking the law(depends on country, in Hungary I believe all IFR is B-RNAV mandatory).

If you take a cent from a passenger, you are breaking a law.

easybakeplane said...

Gunner,

Heartfelt thanks, my next mag of 7.62X39 is for you!!

GR2FS,

I was tempted to say you're involved in a pyramid scheme, except that some people are getting 'something' for their money. But I would say that according to the definition in Wikipedia, you could easily make the case that Eclipse is this:

---------------
"A matrix scheme, also known as a Matrix Site, Elevator Scheme, Escalator Scheme or Ladder Scheme, is a business model involving the exchange of money for a certain product with a side bonus of being added to a waiting list for a product of greater value than the amount given.[1] Matrix schemes are also sometimes considered similar to Ponzi or pyramid schemes. [2] "

-----------

Where your 'deposit' buys you a serial number reservation (which you can sell) with the hope of getting a FPJ ( w/o IOUs!) as the end product

OR

Your $$$ buys you a FPJ w/ IOU's with the hope of getting a FPJ w/o IOU's if enough suckers...er deposits are secured.

Last word is from Wikipedia

------------

" Currently there are no laws specifically naming matrix schemes illegal in the US. However, the US Federal Trade Commission has issued warnings to the public about these sites. In the UK, the Office of Fair Trading has declared some of them to be illegal. On July 1, 2005, two matrix sites, pulsematrix.com and phones4everyone (themobilematrix.com), were declared to be running a form of illegal lottery. Additionally, the US Federal Trade Commission and the UK Trading Standards have issued warnings to the public regarding the ease with which these models can be manipulated for fraudulent purposes.

Many of the original matrix sites, including EZExpo.com, are no longer in operation; some of them closed down while defending civil lawsuits. In 2003 EZExpo and several payment processors were sued in the civil courts for running an illegal lottery in the state of California, with the payment processors abetting the scam.[6] [7][8] However, the civil case is still ongoing. One result of the lawsuit is that those payment processors and some others no longer accept matrix schemes as customers. Currently, no legal precedent exists regarding the matrix scheme in the US.

Dave said...

Something those considering litigation should consider if they ever see themselves pursuing ETIRC:
http://travel.state.gov/law/info/judicial/judicial_691.html

Also here's more info:
http://travel.state.gov/law/info/judicial/judicial_657.html
All legal docs must be translated in Dutch.

It looks like it is best to get an attorney in the Netherlands to consult. With how things are, Roel and Vern are probably laughing at all the depositors and Eclipse owners since they feel they are effectively judgment-proof even though Roel can cruise around Europe in his 80 foot yacht. Perhaps the only thing that could be done to Roel and Vern if they flee to europe is to extradite them criminally as I'm not sure whether or not Roel is invincible civilly.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave Ivedorne said...

"Does EAC have enough money to make it thru production of my aircraft?"

Roel answered - unless we raise more money, NO.


These guys had better get their stories straight. In today's AW&ST, Michael McConnell, VP of sales & marketing, says Eclipse is "very well-positioned with funding" and has support from investors & from the BOD; and that Eclipskiya Ulyanovska is three green as well.

It would be easy to suggest that McConnell grew so accustomed to lying for Vernicus Prevaricatus that it has accidentally become his default behavior. I suggest something a bit more corrupt: that they'll tell prospective customers that everything is fine (anything for a deposit), and wait till they're depositors or actual FPJ owners to f**k 'em over.

Would you like a forked tongue for your Happy Meal?

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Niner Zulu said...

The fact that our dentist friend Ken put Shari's E500 on the market tells me that Eclipse is probably going BK sooner than later.

Ken, my old friend, if you ever want to see a portion of your deposit money again you'd better drop your price on that boat anchor and undercut the market by at least $50,000. It's the only way you're going to get out before BK. If it doesn't sell in a week or two, better drop it another $50,000. Forget about making a profit or even breaking even - this is all about damage control, about saving your retirement money that is fast on it's way to disappearing.

If it is unlikely that serial numbers in the 400's will ever be built, as Roel hinted, then what chance does yours ever have of being built?

Head for the exit before the fire starts - it's the only way you're ever going to get out.

There is a moral dilemma here, however. Perhaps a legal one, too. The poor sucker you sell your position to is probably going to see a 100% loss of his deposit. At the end of the day, you may find yourself sitting at a table across from his lawyers.

Dave said...

Regarding the s/n 400s, this is the BBB report with s/n in the 400s:
http://www.bbbsw.org/BBBWeb/Forms/Complaint/ComplaintDetails_ReadOnlyPage.aspx
I also believe the Geiger lawsuit was for a s/n around 400.

GettingReady2FileSuit said...

Regarding EA 500000425 (this is NOT me):

Complaint Description - Posted 4-24-2008 9:38:50 AM

Certain representations and promises were made to me by Eclipse in connection with a deposit agreement for an aircraft, including without limitation, their financial condition, capacity, ability to produce an aircraft meeting certain specifications and the promise that I would receive an aircraft with a certain serial number. I remitted an aggregate deposit of $182,000. In February 2008, Eclipse requested that I sign a purchase agreement and remit to them an additional deposit of $932,503.30. Pursuant to the deposit agreement such purchase agreement was to be entered into no later than six (6) months prior to aircraft delivery. At the time of such request, Eclipse had only produced approximately 100 planes in 2007 and slightly over that amount total. For them to reach my serial number they would have to produce over three times as many planes as they produced in the entire 2007 over the next 6 months. Around the same time, I became aware that Eclipse had, in violation of my deposit agreement and contrary to representations and assurances given to me by Eclipse, altered my serial number to an earlier model. Further, I was advised by both the Company and the FAA, that the aircraft being delivered were not meeting certain minimum specification requirements set forth in the deposit agreement, including known icing. I demanded the return of my deposit. Eclipse refused and now claim I have forfeited the deposit.


Resolution Sought

I am demanding the return of my deposit of $182,000, along with interest, costs, and any other compensation or damages to which I am entitled.

Additional Information
Date Problem First Occurred:
2-19-2008
Product or Service: This Company is a new manafacturer of aircraft.
Model Name or Number: Eclipse 500
Date Purchased: 7-3-2005
Order Number: EA 500000425
Amount Paid: $182,000.00


Company's Response
Initial Response

No company's response provided

Consumer's Rebuttal
Rebuttal

No consumer's rebuttal provided

Company's Final Response
Final Response

No company's final response provided

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Like our buddy Dave Ivedorne, I am not a lawyer but I think the argument above is pretty solid. I am not sure that Geiger Excavating has as storng a case but the argument above seems well formed.

According to what Eclipse tried, they would have to be well into the 400's this month (only halfway there) in order for this customer to have forfeited the deposit under the agreement.

This cerainly makes a clearer case for attempted fraud - surely Eclipse knew in February that based on their past production rates, the issues with vendors and cashflow, issues with quality, etc., that they would not deliver 300 airplanes in 6 months.

How many other similar attempts to collect unreasonable deposits were made? How many other customers are reading this now or are already filing similar complaints - perhaps to be similar suits?

Wow.

gadfly said...

For whatever it’s worth:

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/air-accidents/TU67I8M6GV1RSU5M3

From someone going by “Old flyer, Newark, DE” (Friday Aug 1)

“I was there this am, story from locals is that he was LANDING, and had just loaded up with some cheap(er) fuel from another airport about 20 miles away (yes, I'm being vague) Density Altitude strikes again, I saw the skid marks from before mid field, all the way to the end. My understanding is that with full fuel, you have enough room for about 1 & 1/2 pax, so he was heavy.

Quagmire - your comment speaks volumes about who and what you are (and not!!!)

Ban(k)ruptcy court - It is about time that snake-oil salesman got called on the carpet for the exaggerated claims of this toy jet.”

gadfly

(The above comment was made after some discussion about the safety of Brandywine Airport in Chester County, PA)

GettingReady2FileSuit said...

Are there any customers here that can answer the following question: With respect to items missing from the "Standard Equipment List", including “Certified for known icing”, “Dual GPS, approach certified”, “Autothrottle” all of which are to this day unavailable, did Eclipse ask or require the customer sign a waiver or release on these items?

Dave said...

Here are the latest photos from Ken:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35457376@N00/

Ken's planes went from Albany to Oshkosh:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N85SM

I did notice something strange. I assume it is for the Eclipse and not for one of the previous aircraft that was issued a temporary certificate:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=85SM

Actually now that I go and look, I see that a number of aircraft have temporary certificates:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=513EA
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=66BX
Is this new or did I miss this being brought up before?

gadfly said...

Here I sit . . . listening to my MP3 collection of John Denver’s great music over “RealPlayer” on my computer . . . and looking at Ken Meyer’s great collection of photos of the little jet. (There comes a time in the day when my brain says, “OK, we’re done with design and invention for now!” . . . and I close down CoCreate 2008 Modeling for the day and turn to other things.)

If I were in charge of Eclipse, I could not wish for a better supporter of the little jet than this Ken Meyer person . . . with all the enthusiasm of a kid that believes in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause, . . . and “Flash Gordon”.

John Denver had a unique style of music . . . he could only afford just under an “octave” . . . and I’ve often wondered what his music would have been had he bought a few extra notes. And we also might wonder what these Eclipse customers might have done, had they put a few extra bucks into their budget and moved up to a real jet.

Well, no one can “fault” John Denver . . . he was among the great! But one day, he “flew away” in an aircraft . . . and we only have his memory.

No, I’ll not belabor the story . . . you all get the point.

gadfly

(Today . . . intentionally a little vague! . . . and lost in memories!)

GettingReady2FileSuit said...

Reposting in an attempt to get an answer:

Are there any customers here that can answer the following question: With respect to items missing from the "Standard Equipment List", including “Certified for known icing”, “Dual GPS, approach certified”, “Autothrottle” all of which are to this day unavailable, did Eclipse ask or require the customer sign a waiver or release on these items?

Dave said...

I was going through the registration database:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/acftinqSQL.asp?striptxt=&mfrtxt=eclipse&modeltxt=&cmndfind.x=9&cmndfind.y=14
And then I remembered the Eclipse press release about providing Harbour offering MRO:
Harbour Air will provide Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO) support for Eclipse 500 operators in Western Canada, with the opportunity to expand into Eastern Canada and Alaska. Harbour Air will also support service requirements for Eclipse 500 operators in the Northwestern United States until the Eclipse Service Center (ESC) network in the United States is fully implemented.

“We are very excited to offer our customers greater capacity for service and modifications,” said John Ricciardelli, Eclipse Aviation’s vice president of ownership experience. “Harbour Air offers complete MRO capability and a strong legacy in aviation. They have supported Eclipse for some time, and I’m thrilled to welcome them to our North American network.”

http://www.amtonline.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6124

However, that's just a scam because there aren't any Canadian Eclipse 500s! So Eclipse making such a big deal about offering MRO to their Canadian customers is just vapor...as usual.

gadfly said...

GR2FS

The answer to your question is “Yes” . . . but they are not about to answer anyone but their own lawyers.

So, we’ll just have to sit on the sidelines and await further results. In other words, it’s everyman (and his lawyer) for himself. But somehow me thinks we won’t have long to wait . . . but that’s just a “gut feel”. Between this blogsite, and some others, pressure is building.

The question is: “Which will occur first . . . a court action? . . . or a disaster on some runway?”

gadfly

(Now back to “On The Wings of a Dream” transitioning into “What One Man Can Do” . . . by John Denver. And, No, I’m not in tune with his philosophy, but the title seems most appropriate. )

gadfly said...

“I’m leavin’ on a jet plane. I hate to go!” (John Denver)

Strange!

gadfly

gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shane Price said...

Getting Ready,

Not quite the answer to your question, but this might help.

I have a recollection of an extended discussion on this matter on 'Stan's blog' around the time (early last year) of the original deliveries.

As I recall it, Ken Meyer and others maintained that there were written promises to update all such aircraft to Avio NG etc, as the original contracts contained specific performance (range, speed/payload) and/or equipment clauses.

Hence the sniggers here when Vern announced that the twin G430W's 'completed' these specifications.

I'm also pretty sure that FIKI was part of that, but I can't remember if EASA certification was as well.

It pretty much depends on what your original contract says.

On the other hand, I have a feeling that none of this really matters now. Almost everyone I've read or heard lately expects EAC to fold soon.

Think about the headline on this thread.

Eclipse went to Oshkosh just over a week ago, at the very first presentation of the entire show, in front of a roomful of aviation journalists and forced their CEO to resign.

It smacks of a desperate throw of the dice to me, and to more than one of those present as well.

The more I think about such a move, the less sense it makes. There was nothing to be gained from forcing Vern to do that, and a lot to lose.

I think they've all but given up. Since then Roel has stated there will be no more upgrades of existing aircraft for at least 6 months. This is in writing. Verbally, you know that he has told people there is little or no work getting done on the E400.

A third party has been appointed to look after service, rather than keeping it in house. What chance of JetComplete working now?

Futhermore:-

1. There are a stack of employee and supplier legal actions piling up.

2. The NTSB and the FAA hotlines are supposed to be buzzing over Brandywine.

3. The inbox is sprinkled with staff, especially those with long term experience in aviation, who are leaving in increasing numbers to find more reliable employers elsewhere.

4. Journalists from your national daily newspapers are contacting the blog, in numbers. Never happened before. And some of the questions they ask are really, really thought provoking.

5. None of the depositors who contacted me in the past few weeks have confirmed they've had their money back yet.

In summary, I'm pretty sure nothing can save the company, at this point.

But I have been wrong before...

Shane

eclipso said...

I have a feeling these will be needed soon. Up dates to come.






Advance Aerospace-512-583-0294

Aerotek- 972-348-1829

Airmate-800-669-5627

AIS – 817-424-0893

APA – 888-272-7868, 817-560-6675

Avgard – 817-640-5135

Butler – 972-572-4577

Global – 817-847-6673

Hq Management – 866-447-2376

Onsite – 972-348-1800 (same as Aerotek)

PDS – 800-657-0997

Planetechs – 800-891-9345

Sharp Aviation – 877-460-8065

SMART – 800-842-0891

STS – 800-359-4787

United Tech – 817-488-1054

WhyTech said...

"Is this new or did I miss this being brought up before?"

Maybe this is too obvious, but dont most changes of ownership result in a temporary registration certificate until the FAA gets around to issuing the permanent registration? (The so called pink slip.) Perhaps you are talking about something other than this?

WT

GettingReady2FileSuit said...

Shane: In summary, I'm pretty sure nothing can save the company, at this point.


Sure is looking quite grim.

gadfly said...

We are about to get a good look behind the green curtain. And how a man fails reveals his true character.

gadfly

(This may be anticlimactic!)

ChickN said...

airsafetyman said...
From the Eclipse web site: "Oshkosh, wi - Eclipse Aviation, manufacturer of the world's first very light jet (VLJ), today announced to its customers at the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) AirVenture 2008 that Harbour Air of Vancouver, British Columbia, will be Eclipse's first Designated Service Center for the Eclipse 500® in North America.
A new concept!: Designated Service Centers! That way you don't have to worry about paying the rent!

Actually, that's not a new concept. Cessna has a number of 'Authorized Service Facilities'. Duncan Aviation for one. The difference is; they're subject to regular inspections as well as 'pop' inspections and have to comply with stringent training requirements as well as only using Cessna authorized parts and equipment. I don't have much hope for Eclipse requiring the training but I'm sure they're more than happy to force Harbour Air to buy spares at inflated prices.

Dave said...

Maybe this is too obvious, but dont most changes of ownership result in a temporary registration certificate until the FAA gets around to issuing the permanent registration? (The so called pink slip.) Perhaps you are talking about something other than this?

Yes, but I don't remember seeing this before...particularly not in quantity. You'd think for instance that ETIRC of all buyers would have their paperwork in order. It seems like you can just pick them out at random and find temp certificates...I don't think there's been THAT many sales or THAT many deliveries. I don't know?

airsafetyman said...

"Actually, that's not a new concept."[Designated Service Centers]

Of course not, but it fits in with Eclipse having to reinvent each and every thing associated with aviation. Can you imagine how much money they wasted on the stand-alone service centers in Albany and Gainesville? (Or taxpayer maoney was lost through issuance of municipal bonds for facilities that will not have rent paid) Very soon Gainesville and Albany citizens will get to pay the upkeep on empty buildings.

Dave said...

Can you imagine how much money they wasted on the stand-alone service centers in Albany and Gainesville? (Or taxpayer maoney was lost through issuance of municipal bonds for facilities that will not have rent paid) Very soon Gainesville and Albany citizens will get to pay the upkeep on empty buildings.

How about the ABQ fallout? ABQ (with bribed politicians) did everything they could to shove money at Eclipse. No wonder Governor Richardson became an also ran in the Presidential race. Despite having one of the best political resumes around, he gives the appearance of being corrupt if not actually being corrupt. I imagine this could really blow up for the NM SIC since the fiduciaries took money from Eclipse while not recruising themselves during Eclipse-related matters...they should have picked one or the other if they were going to be fiduciaries. It also looks [unsurprisingly] that there was very poor due diligence on behalf of the NM SIC and ABQ. No surprise considering the politicians were bribed.

20yearmechanic said...

NEWS FLASH!

Its official at ECLIPSE! 2nd shift has been canceled, as in there is NO MORE SECOND SHIFT at SP11. 18 contractors quit, going to ASSOCIATED AIR, SNC, BOMBARDIER in TUCSON and some are in route to the HAWKER BEACH Strike. Im going to AMARILLO to work at BELL. All I can say is GOOD LUCK ON THE 1 A DAY PACE. It never happened and it never will. Also GOOD LUCK with the FAA audit, YOU WILL FAIL BIG TIME. ””””””””TURN OUT THE LIGHTS, THE PARTYS OVER”””””””” Sing It!

Dave said...

Here's an article talking about the end of Eclipse and it is the MSM rather than in the aviation press. Normally things like this start in the speciality press and then work their way up to the MSM, but I guess the MSM is too much in the pocket of Eclipse (except for CharterX):
Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group, an industry consulting firm in Fairfax, Va., once thought Raburn was another Preston Tucker, who dreamed of developing a new kind of car after World War II but in the end failed.

Aboulafia now says the comparison with Tucker would be too kind to Raburn.

Eclipse Aviation is one of the most "dangerous programs this industry has seen," Aboulafia said. "What has happened sends a chill through the industry and its investors. It's a good way to make investors disenchanted with aviation."

"I'm appalled," Aboulafia said. "Raburn essentially destroyed a billion dollars. That's a serious pile of cash to burn through and not have very much to show for it."

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/aerospace/archives/145329.asp?from=blog_last3

Dave said...

Its official at ECLIPSE! 2nd shift has been canceled, as in there is NO MORE SECOND SHIFT at SP11. 18 contractors quit, going to ASSOCIATED AIR, SNC, BOMBARDIER in TUCSON and some are in route to the HAWKER BEACH Strike. Im going to AMARILLO to work at BELL. All I can say is GOOD LUCK ON THE 1 A DAY PACE. It never happened and it never will.

So that means Vern, Roel, etc have been putting out a pile of manure about their production rate. No surprise. The only question is how long have they known that they wouldn't achieve their stated production rates...particularly when they hit up investors or hit up depositors.

Dave said...

Given the unique relationship between Eclipse and ETIRC and it being vague exactly whose plant the Russian Eclipse plant would be, does anyone think there's been any money transfered out of Eclipse and back into ETIRC? In any event, if the money is increasingly going offshore, it seems like that's a way to prevent creditors from getting it back. I'm sure Vern and Roel will have a lot of fun sailing around europe on Roel's Flavnius with it or maybe Vern will get his own Flavonius with the money in some swiss bank account and him outside the jurisdiction of US civil courts.

The Real Frank Castle said...

Thank you, Gunner, for all you did. Words cannot extend my deep appreciation of your defense on our behalf. I liken it to you being a Veteran, and me, the poor 4-f that had to stay behind. When I raise my flag in remembrance of those who have served our country with dignity and pride, you, dear sir, are on that great list.

Frank

The Real Frank Castle said...

Hey, eclipso, too afraid to put

www.cessnajobs.com

on that list ?!?

airsafetyman said...

"if the money is increasingly going offshore, it seems like that's a way to prevent creditors from getting it back."

It would seem the game is to get all the revenue offshore as quickly as possible and screw the vendors, employees, deposit holders, and anyone else before declaring bankruptcy. I am beginning to think it is entirely possible that the Vernster arranged his own demotion to Vice Chairman of Internationalization (or whatever) so he would not be at the helm when the ship went down.

airtaximan said...

Pieper is smart...

no planes to make... so whay have a second shift?

the deposit scam is washed up at this point...why make like there's a huge order book, when there is none... and no more deposits...

what's the point.

DOA...

DOA

Dave said...

I am beginning to think it is entirely possible that the Vernster arranged his own demotion to Vice Chairman of Internationalization (or whatever) so he would not be at the helm when the ship went down.

...And the one who is at the helm is a foreign citizen who lives in a foreign country and who represents a foreign corporation. Short of getting an arrest warrant for Roel and/or Vern if he flees to europe/russia, it is going to be difficult to engage in international litigation. It is like the Roel and Vern Show are setting it up to where nobody can be pinned in the US for the responsibility. Vern has done the "I'm shocked SHOCKED!" routine so many times over so many things, that Vern saying it about his firing is no reason to believe it wasn't something well-planned and well-known for some time between these two buddies.

Dave Ivedorne said...

"Raburn essentially destroyed a billion dollars. That's a serious pile of cash to burn through and not have very much to show for it."

Twenty dozen lawn darts.

If you think a billion dollars is too much to spend on twenty dozen lawn darts, remember this - Vern's are self-propelled!

[Historic footnote - for those who don't remember, lawn darts were eventually banned because of the tendency to occasionally maim their users.]

Would you like the shish-kebab?

20yearmechanic said...

I am beginning to think it is entirely possible that the Vernster arranged his own demotion to Vice Chairman of Internationalization (or whatever) so he would not be at the helm when the ship went down.

DUH! Ya Think! Its all a SCAM, A house of cards so to speak. The Aviation DOT COM if you will. If he comes out with a few toy jets of his own and 100 million to hide offshore, he is more ahead then when he started this whole mess. How much money has the Vernster hid away in the last 10 years from all of this? Just think, He was able to hide 15 mill to pay for the CON JET right under the board members noses. SO YOU TELL ME!

Dave said...

Pieper is smart...
no planes to make... so whay have a second shift?
the deposit scam is washed up at this point...why make like there's a huge order book, when there is none... and no more deposits...
what's the point.


He probably had to have time to wire the money to europe, so a temporary smokescreen was needed. I would also expect that a BK is in ETIRC's interest so if he as CEO of Eclipse causes it to crash, he as CEO of ETIRC will benefit in addition to any monies he as Eclipse CEO transfers to himself as ETIRC CEO.

Dave said...

The Aviation DOT COM if you will

Vern himself called it that.

I AM NOT VERN said...

Linear Air seems to be flying somewhat regular schedules. With a Chapter 11 or Ch7 I wonder what it will do to their business model?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/HPN610/history

And, no I'm still not Vern

20yearmechanic said...

Linear Air seems to be flying somewhat regular schedules. With a Chapter 11 or Ch7 I wonder what it will do to their business model?

BUY CESSNA MUSTANGS, There a far better aircraft for the money. OR buy up a few more E500's (ONE OF THE 80 OR SO) on the controller.com site for about 1.6 a wack and use a few for spares, Im sure they will even go lower in price before its all over.

eclipso said...

The Real Frank Castle said...
Hey, eclipso, too afraid to put

www.cessnajobs.com



Good site. I just put what I had and will add as I hope the rest will do. These guys/gals are going to be needing all of the info the can get. Some of the folks there have never been on the road. Thanks for the link. Another good one: www.jsfirm.com

Ceri said...

Nasty outbreak of blogging hysteria. Shame.

Far more likely that Vern is an incompetent liar who was allowed much more rope than he should have been by Roel P.

Why would two rich guys bother with a 10+ year scheme to move money offshore (... and get themselves indicted in the US...)?

There doesn't always have to be another layer of conspiracy ... sometimes it's just a f*k up.

My question, for those not too busy foaming at the mouth or gnawing on carpet:
If Eclipse goes BK, who do the future widows/widowers of future E500 fatalities sue?

Does the liability issue reduce the value of the E500 TC?

If so, are all 200+ E500s destined to become lawn ornaments?

eclipso said...

www.lockheedmartin.com

I AM NOT VERN said...

"Why would two rich guys bother with a 10+ year scheme to move money offshore (... and get themselves indicted in the US...)?

You are correct sir. The problem is that old Vern wasn't very smart. If his brains turned to gasoline there wouldn't be enough there to power a piss ants motorcycle around the inside of a Cheerio!

The only thing he was good at was raising money. Now that he is gone we'll see if Der Dutchman is any smarter.

As far as a convoluted scheme to move money offshore....well, that is just a crock.

Says he -

As I gnaw on my scrap of carpet.

And, no I'm still not Vern

Dave said...

BUY CESSNA MUSTANGS, There a far better aircraft for the money. OR buy up a few more E500's (ONE OF THE 80 OR SO) on the controller.com site for about 1.6 a wack and use a few for spares, Im sure they will even go lower in price before its all over.

It is pure economics that it would. Figure that an FPJ with a non-BK Eclipse is worth 1.5. Then deduct whatever the costs would be for a servicer to get the plane up to contract specs and also factor in the other miscellaneous higher costs of supporting a product from a now defunct company. The early FPJs that haven't had the retrofits would be the cheapest while the newer FPJs would be worth more. Vern most likely would finally achieve the under a million jet with the value some of the FPJs would drop to. To make an Eclipse safe and with a G1000, I would expect to be very expensive, but if the used FPJ marketplace goes down enough, it could be worthwhile for someone to pick up an Eclipse for cheap and then put a lot into the jet to make it safe and functional.

eclipso said...

www.pemcoaviationgroup.com

Dave said...

Why would two rich guys bother with a 10+ year scheme to move money offshore (... and get themselves indicted in the US...)?

Who said anything about this being a 10 year scheme to move money offshore? I believe these guys expected to cash out with an IPO before the market discovered it was vaporware, but now they're at Plan B which they've made up as they've gone along. Taking the money and running after an IPO right before the company bombed was a common dot com strategy.

I pointed all this out specifically because of the unique relationship between Eclipse and ETIRC, which was only amplified by having Roel be Eclipse CEO. Eclipse has already engaged in shady transactions and I say where there's smoke, there's fire. That Vern is now working for an offshore company on Eclipse matters only further raises the red flag. I have no reason to trust Vern or Roel and it certainly wouldn't surprise if Roel has been doing lots of self-dealing while Eclipse CEO.

Dave said...

I feel I should explain further why it wouldn't surprise me if there's a criminal conspiracy between Vern and Roel. I'm not saying this conspiracy started out in 1998, but rather it developed on the way once Vern and Roel realized they weren't going to cash out with an IPO.

One very glaring item in my mind is the Russian factory. It can't serve any purpose in real life, but it does make things incredibly difficult and murky if trying to sue/prosecute because it involves companies in so many countries shifting money around. It has never been made clear precisely what the relationship is between Eclipse, ETIRC and the factory. I believe Eclipse has been sending money to ETIRC under the guise of developing the Russian factory as part of a co-development arrangement (both ETIRC and Eclipse have at times acted like they'd own the Russian factory), but with no actual intent to build the factory.

Assuming this was pre-planned, Vern could have made various payments to ETIRC for the russian factory knowing that Roel was going to put in X amount. Then once Roel took over he then kept on making payments. ETIRC could have basically paid themselves off for the last round while giving themselves ownership of whatever might be of value.

If it was done right, it would make criminal prosecution extremely difficult given how the money left the US and it would be difficult to prove that the russian factory was a sham. This difficulty is compounded by having the relevant documents be in foreign countries. That would mean it would be hard to get the evidence to even get a criminal indictment. Combining the murky (rather than clear-cut) actions with an extremely challenging process, it probably wouldn't be worthwhile for law enforcement agencies to pursue criminal prosecution nor for private lawyers to take something on contingency to pursue civilly.

So basically:
* What purpose was there for the Russian Eclipse plant? It wasn't due to FPJ demand...
* What could realistically happen to Roel if he does self-deal? Lots of the documents a US civil or criminal court would like to see are in a foreign country and those foreign countries might not even have Sarbanes-Oxley type laws assuming a subpoena was ever issued.
* When has Eclipse been shown as being trustworthy or honest? They don't exactly have a good track record...
* How many times has Eclipse scammed progress payments based on false production rates? Eclipse has scammed many times before, no reason to think they wouldn't scam again...

For these reasons is why I would put nothing past Eclipse, Vern or Roel.

TBMs_R_Us said...

Dave,

I think your imagination is working overtime. Things are much simpler than this.

Both Vern and Roel have big BIG egos. Roel doesn't need to engage in some scheme to extract dollars from a failing Eclipse. His reputation is worth more than that to him, and frankly, he doesn't need it.

As for Vern, his ego drove him to believe most of the crap he spewed, right up to the end. Self doubt wasn't part of his makeup. He probably thought the E400 could save his bacon, and that the die-hards would stick with him. What he didn't count on was the FPJ crashing with software problems. That alone can bring the house down.

Roel got into the deal with high hopes and a self confident view that he could put Eclipse back on the rails (his rep). But, Vern had dug the hole too deep for that. Now it's all going to collapse. There isn't enough money for it to have been going to Russia in some scam that would bring Roel down, he's too smart for that. He can still blame Vern, and Vern no longer has a stage to play on.

Dave said...

Roel got into the deal with high hopes and a self confident view that he could put Eclipse back on the rails (his rep). But, Vern had dug the hole too deep for that. Now it's all going to collapse. There isn't enough money for it to have been going to Russia in some scam that would bring Roel down, he's too smart for that. He can still blame Vern, and Vern no longer has a stage to play on.

So then tell me what is the purpose of the Eclipse Russian plant. That is something Roel definitely couldn't blame Vern for. While you are at it tell me the relationship between Eclipse, ETIRC and the plant and why you can say for certain no money has gone from Eclipse to ETIRC over said plant.

TBMs_R_Us said...

For all we know the whole thing was an ego trip. I certainly don't know that money didn't go for the plant, anymore than you know that it did.

All I'm suggesting is that usually the truth is simpler than what you're suggesting. And I could certainly be wrong about it.

The collapse of companies is often swift and precipitous, especially ones that have burned through so much ($1B+). What were firm plans a few months ago are now dust in the wind.

Dave said...

All I'm suggesting is that usually the truth is simpler than what you're suggesting. And I could certainly be wrong about it.

To me it being a scam is the simplest explanation. By all means show me how that isn't the simplest explanation.

Let's look at the various possible scenarios (and feel free to add if you think I left anything off):
1) Total Legit Russian Factory
2) Russian Factory To Benefit ETIRC with ABQ Closing Down
3) No Russian Factory At All

To me it is not logical at all for the factory to ever been considered legit at least not with the ABQ factory going. Having two factories filling orders completely undermines Eclipse reaching break-even factory production. It makes no sense to me that Eclipse with a well-known production problem as well as a well known finance problem would take an action that would extremely exacerbate both situations they are supposedly trying to get out of (alternatively, if this is 100% ETIRC paid, it still leaves Eclipse not having enough orders to reach breakeven production). It is possible that ETIRC plans on having a russian plant, but that would leave other investors in Eclipse high and dry and hence would have a high likelyhood of having acheived this by there being a scam in there somewhere.

I've never heard a good explanation for the russian factory and the simplest answer is there is something fishy going on. Frankly the smatter you attribute Roel to be, the more I'm inclined to believe things that aren't legit are going on.

I'm not saying that an explanation can't be made as to this being legit, but I wouldn't say it passes Occam.

Also I'm not sure how many people here are familiar with board governance. I can't tell you how huge a red flag it is with Roel as CEO given how he is simultaneously one of Eclipse's largest customers as well as Eclipse's largest investor plus having some relationship with Eclipse and the russian plant. I simply cannot see how Roel can ethically serve as CEO given how practically everything he does as CEO presents him with a conflict-of-interest. Again using Occam, the simplest explanation is that he is doing what is best for ETIRC...constantly conflicting fiduciary duties. Vern now is also a fiduciary of ETIRC Aviation.

Occam is just telling that this smells to high heaven, with much of the smell eminating from Russia (not Russia's fault). By all means show me that the Russian plant is a legit operation intended to aid in Eclipse breaking even as being the simplest explanation.

fred said...

dave ...

the russian plant is a "castle in spain" ...

i wrote it before , i have been to Moscow E-trick address = believe me , it was NOTHING like a firm who could invest a few hundreds millions $ anywhere of the surface of earth ...!

i am not sure of that , but to me the ONLY way to see if
E-trick-Russia has any kind of more or less legal form would be to publish their license N° (all russian firms have to have such !) on their website , that is probably what a russian entity or anyone knowing a bit "what's going there..." would look for ...
so to me , this lack of L-N° is symptomatic of that it is aimed for foreigners not having a clue ...!

at the same time , Etrick proclaimed about a year ago that they would Change the buses system of Sochi (the town where 2014 Olympics winter game are to be held) to Hydrogen fuel and build several storage facilities around the town for the hydrogen ...

more than a year later , the bus system look brand new to me , but is running on diesel ... and as for hydrogen storage facilities around town = an official told me this " sochi is a stone throw from abkhazia (one of the willing to be independent region of Georgia) where a war is always on the verge of outbreak ... this region is as well part of Caucasus , well known for Chechnya and its terrorists ... so to put one Giant Bomb Plant close , let alone several of them, to a city holding a mass media event in the form of Olympics is nothing less than a good case for psychiatric asylum ! "


so what is it all about ?

first , i am sorry to say that Roel reputation IS NOT as good as some would like ...
in E.U. he has the rep of a liquidator (someone to terminate firms) more than to be creator or competent manager ...!

Luxembourg is a very funny place in some aspect ...
there is ONLY 4 cases where bank secrecy can be abolished :

1° Weapons traffic toward countries or places under an embargo decision of U.N. security council

2° trafficking in human flesh ( prostitution , slavery , etc )

3° tax evasion at the ONLY condition the said tax-evasion can be sentenced IN luxembourg by a court OF luxembourg ( the law in Luxembourg prescribe that tax-evasion cannot be sentenced in Lux. making this case almost impossible , something made in the time of french president Mitterand and his good friend Kohl , Lux authorities tricked the frenchs /germans [who were pressuring E.U to adopt sanctions against Lux for the tax heaven system] into accepting a draft where Europeans citizens could be sued for putting money into Lux. at the ONLY condition that it would be something against the law of Lux. = off-course the french and german were too happy to sign with both hands the agreement and the day after signing the Lux. govt decided to make a law that you cannot be sued in Lux. for tax-evasion , making the agreement absolutely worthless ...!)

4° anything against the laws of Luxembourg made IN Lux.
( this is where it start to make sens to have a weird address , you never make business in Lux. and it is ok !) off-course anything criminal is the surest way to end-up in jail , but it has to be qualified of criminal (departing some Not-smart from their cash is NOT criminal , it is unethical , bad , whatever but not criminal in the law-meaning of the term )

so if what is left of money is in Lux. victims ... error : depositors can wave it goodbye already ...!!

if you add the latest dev. of the story , one can start to assemble the puzzle :

everything is done to withdraw Vern from responsibilities (fired from EAC )

Roel take over (but not a citizen )

everything is done to provoke a BK , but out of EAC direct will (so easy then after to tout "if peoples would have been waiting only XX more days/months : EAC would have become cash positive ...but some decided to ruin all our dreams by their nasty actions ...!" )

Money is gone abroad (justification = plant in Russia)

Vern can safely stay in USA , Roel goes back to his homeland

others are left with their crying eyes ...!

20yearmechanic said...

I CANT WAIT FOR THE BIG LIQUIDATION AUCTION WHEN ECLIPSE GOES BK! THERE ARE ABOUT 75 BIG ORANGE SNAP ON TOOL BOXES I WANT TO BID ON. I would say the air tools as well, but former employees have been sneeking them out and selling them on Ebay. If I want the air tools Ill get them on THE BAY!

20 YM

FreedomsJamtarts said...

I am going to bid on a stir frier, and open Europes first Benny Hanners (or whatever those mongolian bar-BQ's is called:)

One of those engines would make a great leaf blower for my yard, and I could use the tires for my wheel barrow.

paul said...

"in route to the HAWKER BEACH Strike."

Truley shamefull-scab is too kind a word for those who choose to cross the line.
As far as Pemco it is the nastiest sh++hole in the aviation world (beautiful Dothan Alabama) and you get to work on 120,000 cycle Northwest DC-9s.

Dave said...

Money is gone abroad (justification = plant in Russia)
Vern can safely stay in USA , Roel goes back to his homeland
others are left with their crying eyes ...!


It doesn't make sense to me otherwise. If said plant actually was developed, it would completely ruin Eclipse's chances of being cash flow positive by both being a cash drain as well as a drain on orders. The simplest explanation that I see is that Vern and Roel have no plans of starting up the Russian plant - at least not with the ABQ factory running, though based on Fred's reports, it doesn't sound like Eclipse/ETIRC Russia is acting like a business that is trying to get going.

fred said...

dave :

don't worry ...

the "plant" in Russia , at the time being , is still a junkyard ...!

so "end of the story" or "to be continued" ?

i wouldn't personally bet more a cent on it ...!

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
eclipso said...

paul said...
"in route to the HAWKER BEACH Strike."

Truley shamefull-scab is too kind a word for those who choose to cross the line.
As far as Pemco it is the nastiest sh++hole in the aviation world (beautiful Dothan Alabama) and you get to work on 120,000 cycle Northwest DC-9s.



There is an alternative, but I HATE living on balogna and food stamps

fred said...

freedom ...

may i advise you , once you use the wheel as said in your post , NOT to be running too fast with your wheel barrow ...

i am not suggesting you're too fast , simply than the tire may not take any speed you achieve ...! ;-))

airsafetyman said...

If the money is not already offshore why was Roel "promising" to wire the money for the deliquent rent on the Gainesville, FL, service center from ETIRC? Besides my carpet is very tasty this morning! I will go and climb the drapes now.

uglytruth said...

I could use the tires for my wheel barrow.......

Yes you could, but now you can't put any load in the thing making it as useful as a FPJ! But the way things are looking it's probably worth more.

paul said...

"There is an alternative, but I HATE living on balogna and food stamps"

Come on! There's tons of contract jobs out there. Why would anyone want to go to Wichita anyway. Hawker's hiring in Little Rock (non union not on strike).
Charlotte is hiring (and you get to work on a real airplane, not a tinker toy)
You shouldn't have to duck to walk under a wing!

fred said...

ugglytruth ..:

ok , the fpj is not really what it was meant to be ...

but tire is not faulty ...

it designed for one use under certain limits ...

the specifications haven't been revised since beginning ...

so it like having a kid's bicycle tire mounted on a mine truck in suid-afrika ... sorry , kenny-boy , south-africa ...;-)))

Orville said...

Expect more traffic headed this way. There's a link to this site in today's AvWEB newsletter (article about the blogger suit being dismissed).

fred said...

by the way :

this morning , i've checked controller : 84 for sale !!

so 220 units minus 84 = 136

136 units minus all the one sold by right hand to left hand (relation Eac/etrick ! let's say 26 ) = 110

110 units minus all the ones for Dayjet ( i feel NO one of this planes have been paid for ! this is why some very clever ass have been waiting 10 years : if working = a real fortune made out of nothing ; if NOT working : no problemos = deposit holder were bearing the risks , not dayJet + marketing value for Eac = fat orderbook !)

it leave out not really too many ...

which i would say it is a ratio of more than 50% of really sold items to be on re-sale ... after just a very few hours of use ...

???

i would say : how disruptive !! ;-))

Dave said...

DayJet is seeking help in Gainesville, but Eclipse did finally pay the rent in Gainesville (note 14 MB download):
Mr. Penksa reported that staff has offered to help DayJet with its local marketing effort. He stated that
staff is ready to facilitate meetings between DayJet and large companies in the area, including AvMed and
Nationwide Insurance. Other charter and airline opportunities available at GNV will also be
communicated to potential users.
Mr. Penksa reported that Eclipse Aviation has paid all of its rent for 2008 and that the next payment will
be due in March of 2009.

http://www.gra-gnv.com/docs/073108ag.pdf
Good luck to Gainesville in getting sufficient renumeration from DayJet and Eclipse in 2009:
Mr. Penksa reported that the committee will meet again in August to consider the FY2009
budget. He stated that he does not plan to take on any additional debt. He noted that of all the
current debts, the Eclipse debt is the riskiest because it is paid with rental income from Eclipse
and not from proceeds from a state or federal grant.

WhyTech said...

As I reflect on what I know of the Eclipse story as it has unfolded over the last 10+ years, and especially recent developments, it is my fervent hope that a competent, objective journalist/writer undertakes to tell this story in a comprehensive, unbiased way. As many have said here, few if any have the imagination necessary to invent this sequence of events and characters. Something along the lines of Barbarians at the Gate would seem appropriate.

Dave said...

Something along the lines of Barbarians at the Gate would seem appropriate.

FPJ = Premier

1st Scientist: [talking about the smokeless Premier cigarette survey] Well of all the people we surveyed the results were just about uniform.
F. Ross Johnson: Uh huh.
Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: They all said they tasted like shit.
F. Ross Johnson: Like shit?
2nd Scientist: Shit was the consensus, yes sir.
F. Ross Johnson: They all said that? Nobody liked them?
2nd Scientist: Fewer than 5%
F. Ross Johnson: You said the results were gonna be terrific.
Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: Well there's nothing wrong with 5%, Ross, I'll take 5% of the market anytime of the week.
F. Ross Johnson: How much are we into right now?
1st Scientist: Right now?
F. Ross Johnson: To date, to here, to now?
1st Scientist: Upwards of 350.
F. Ross Johnson: We've spent 350 million dollars and we come up with a turd with a tip? God almighty, Ed! We put enough technology in this project to send a cigarette to the moon and we come up with one that tastes like it took a dump?
Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: We haven't even talked about the smell.
F. Ross Johnson: Oh what did they say that was like? A fart?
Edward A. Horrigan Jr.: Yep.
F. Ross Johnson: Oh you're not serious! They really said that?
2nd Scientist: We have an awful lot of fart figures.
F. Ross Johnson: Tastes like shit and smells like a fart! Got ourselves one hell of a product on our hands it's one unique advertising strategy I'll tell ya that.

WhyTech said...

Dave,

Terrific and highly relevant quote!

Re Dayjet: in the issue of B&CA that arrived in my mailbox yesterday is a several page article on DyJet which is mostly a puff piece. Scarcely a mention of the challenges/issues.

WT

Dave said...

More on my previous Gaineville post. I'm reading the auditors report and Eclipse features promintently in GRA's Long Term Debt description. Unfortunately the PDF is in image form rather than text form, so I can't quote it, but go to the page numbered page 10 (actual page 13):
http://www.gra-gnv.com/docs/2007_Audit_Report.pdf
GRA is fully drawn down on the 2006A $6 million dollar loan, which is based on Eclipse revenues and is secured by the airports' parking revenues. It puts the airport on the hook for almost $200K a year for decades to come. Eclipse going under can reverberate not just in New Mexico, but nationwide.

Dave said...

Terrific and highly relevant quote!

I thought particularly the development costs versus results. If RJR cigarette was a "turd on a tip", what does that make the FPJ?

Charity said...

Didnt EAC issue a press release while in Oshkosh that they had just recieved "a new round of financing that would take them to cash flow positive" ? I must've gotten out of the loop for a while between that statement and all of this BK talk. Im sure a kind soul will give me a brief synopsis? :)

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