Thursday, November 13, 2008

Sadly, it looks like the end.

This is not a post I was looking forward to. I've experienced grief myself recently and know at first hand the pain and loss the staff at EAC, along with suppliers and customers, must feel at this time. My thoughts and best wishes go out to all those affected by todays' events.

First confirmed reports were from KBO-TV reproduced below. 

Eclipse employees unpaid for last two weeks
The employees of Eclipse Aviation learned this morning that they won’t be receiving their paychecks for the last two weeks of labor. Employees at the Albuquerque manufacturing facility say that they were called into a meeting early this morning and told they would not be receiving paychecks. They were handed a sheet of paper with a toll-free phone number to call to see if they would be paid. No reason, apparently, was given for the action.

Employees leaving the early morning meeting expressed anger, frustration and uncertainty before speeding out of the facility's parking lot. Among the concerns they voiced: What would become of their vacation and what would become of their retirement investments.
Employees were told that they could come and go from the workplace throughout the day but many immediately emptied their desks and left. Some employees attending the meeting say that company officials told them that they stayed up into the early morning hours trying to find a way to assure the workers would be paid but were unable to do so.

A critical vendor to EAC has also confirmed to me they are 'pulling the plug'. The knock on effect of this could lead to an early grounding of the remaining FPJ's, and serious efforts will be required to get them flying again. This is a direct consequence of the high level of integration in the design.

A few interesting reactions to the news over the past few hours.:-

1. Peg is clearly relieved that the end has come. The following hit the inbox from a 'reliable source' today:-
"My partner works at a coffee outlet close to the EAC campus. He knows Peg, who was there this morning laughing up a storm, apparently without a care in the world. She was with a guy, but they were acting like teenagers. Public displays of affection and all that. Really weird for a 'professional' woman in her 40s..."

2. Several reputable journalists would like to talk to those of you affected by these events. If you are prepared to go on the record, send your name, a phone number and what relationship you had with EAC to eclipsecriticng@gmail.com

3. I've been asked the question, several times today, so I want to state that suppliers and customers are welcome to post to the blog or contact me at the above address should you want to establish contact with each other. I've already preformed this service a number of times in the past....

4. All is not lost. I suspect that we will see several operations opening up which will offer services, in a number of ways. The following quote, from William Feather and provided by an 'ex Eclipser' is worth remembering at this time.
"Something that has always puzzled me all my life is why, when I am in special need of help, the good deed is usually done by somebody on whom I have no claim." 

Clearly the situation will evolve rapidly. I'll do my best to keep up with events over the next few days.

UPDATED Friday 14th 21.00hrs GMT

From: Scott Dannenberg
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 12:21PM
To: _All Enterprise
Subject: Payroll status update

Fellow Eclipsers,

We are extremely happy to report that funding has been obtained that will allow all past due payroll to be in your bank account no later than Tuesday, November 18, 2008. Money may be deposited in your account on Monday. Please continue to check your bank accounts.

For those that get physical checks, please call the payroll department on Monday to arrange to get your check.

We look forward to all of us returning to work on Monday, November 17.

Employee benefits including health and dental remain intact and available.

Management continues to work diligently on a longer term financial solution for our business.

We sincerely apologize for the distress this has caused you. Thank you for your continued support and loyalty.

Executive Management Team


This was forwarded to my in the past hour. Lets hope that it is genuine and the start of a 'good news' story. As I noted yesterday, I expect this situation to change, rapidly, over the next few days. Stay tuned.....

Shane

561 comments:

1 – 200 of 561   Newer›   Newest»
Dave said...

This article might explain some of Eclipse's financial problems. Roel in his infinite wisdom has Eclipse being the main sponsor of a Dutch basketball team that he happens to be involved in vai MyGuide (another of his tentacles):
EclipseJet where Pieper also directs, is the main sponsor of Basketbalclub in Amsterdam.
Basketball Week is continuing despite problems sponsor
Here's the team's website showing Eclipse as a "strategic sponsor":
Amsterdam Basketball
Now we know where some of the money went...to Roel's pet projects. How many people ordered an Eclipse because Eclipse was a strategic sponsor of a Dutch basketball team?

Black Tulip said...

Suggested headstone:

ECLIPSE AVIATION

Born
1998

Expired
2008

Gone to a Better World,
Where There is No Known Ice

Forever Adorned by
The Faithful

gadfly said...

"Gone to a Better World,
Where There is No Known Ice"

. . . in a hand-basket?

gadfly

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Curt_MSN said...

I feel TRULY sorry for the staff not getting paid for two weeks worth of work. More often than not if you get your company in such a cash crunch that you can't make payroll you are DONE. I am sure the accounting folks knew they were going to be here two weeks ago with a cashflow analysis - nice to let everyone work for free while the execs try to come up with an 11th hour plan - classy.

Given the capital crunch right now I am not sure anybody who actually might want to buy them could even raise the funds for it. Those who have the cash to buy it probably would rather see it fail so there own product wins.

bill e. goat said...

I would like to think Peg did everything she could to keep Eclipse solvent. Unfortunately, in her role, that's not her resposiblity, and there's not much she could have done.

(Other than to warn employees that something dire might happen, and I would also maintain she did not want to start an unneccesary panic, if Mr. Mann's persoanl limo pulled up last night).

I am certain she has had her days of stress and angst in the past, and give her credit for being at least adequately competent and typically ethical.

She's not the one behind the collapse at Eclipse.

Dave said...

I saw this on Forbes which appears to be an updated AP story:
Later in the morning, a female employee who declined to give her name came out of Eclipse headquarters and insisted operations were continuing.

"We are still working. We are positive," she said, shaking a finger at reporters.

NM: Eclipse employees unpaid for last 2 weeks
So is this finger-pointing employee working for free or is Eclipse just selectively deciding who they'll pay and who they wont? That would seem troublesome playing favorites with who gets paid for their work and who doesn't.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Shane, if folks from Eclipse are looking for work, and you are willing to act as intermediary, I might be able to help some of them find work or at least give them contacts to chase down.

I can probably help engineering and manufacturing types.

While this is obviously a terrible time to be looking for work there are programs which are strong, some are even growing.

Curt_MSN said...

Mr "Goat":

I agree with you - sorry, didn't mean to imply the accounting folks could have done anything about the situation even with the knowledge.

That's the problem with being in accounting....you can clearly see the train coming but trying to get "upper management" to get off the tracks is damn near impossible.

Dave said...

This sounds awfully like what happened with depositors:
One employee told News 13 the vice president told them that they'll know more within the next week about when employees might get their pay.
KRQE: Eclipse Can't Make Payroll

Curt_MSN said...

One comment in the TV story that baffled me a bit was the mention that employees "might not be eligible for unemployment". How could this be short of Eclipse owing large sums of $$ to the state unemployment insurance fund? I am curious as to how that plays out.

A Boy Named Suit said...

He knows Peg, who was there this morning laughing up a storm, apparently without a care in the world. She was with a guy, but they were acting like teenagers. Public displays of affection and all that. Really weird for a 'professional' woman in her 40s..."

Looks like someone besides the rank and file got screwed last night!

Dave said...

One comment in the TV story that baffled me a bit was the mention that employees "might not be eligible for unemployment".

I get it. If you quit your job voluntarilly - rather than leave involuntarilly - your previous employer doesn't have to pay for unemployment. For all the people Eclipse didn't pay for two weeks worth of work those people are still technically employees unless they quit and so Eclipse is probably happy to see people pack up and leave so that they can claim the employee quit rather than was fired. However, if Eclipse was to really take this line I don't think they'd look very good in any court or regulatory body because they didn't meet payroll. I don't know the exact regs, but I don't think Eclipse would have a leg to stand on regarding those employees getting unemployment after not being paid for their work.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

This is a sad time for the employees at EAC, my thoughts and prayers are with them. However, I feel the need to remind you that there are approxamently 250 E500s out there today. Thoes planes will need service. In addition, EAC having a production certificate for aircraft with FIKI, and Avio NG 1.5 (a bit late, but better late than never) will provide some value to the company. You watch, someone will continue this company if EAC does not get its financing. The E500 is generally a good plane, now that it is more complete it is a contender. There will be money in retrofitting the 250 aircraft out there to have the newer features too.

You guys have dibs on FPJ Inc or whatever you call it. I will place my vote for a new name for the company if EAC goes down. They should call it Phoenix Aviation because it WILL arise from the ashes of EAC.

Zed said...

Spread the word in SunPort ... don't quit, and don't burn vacation, sick time, etc.

Show up for work every day at 0800 and have them tell you to go away.

In your off time search for another job (on your personal laptop of course).

If your employment agreement requires, when you get another job, report the fact ... request moving to the night shift, and go about your same routine until they fire you.

Get to the point where you have a choice, and then make the choice that is best for you and the family.

Dave said...

However, I feel the need to remind you that there are approxamently 250 E500s out there today. Thoes planes will need service. In addition, EAC having a production certificate for aircraft with FIKI, and Avio NG 1.5 (a bit late, but better late than never) will provide some value to the company.

I agree with you on the servicing and I think it is Roel's plan to manufacture overseas (but I don't think his plan will work). Time will tell as to what happens.

Orville said...

I found the problem with payroll...

On the EAC 'career' page - there's an opening for a 'Payroll Accountant'. There's probably plenty of cash - just no one to write the checks.

(yeah, right)

gadfly said...

EP, etc.

One might wish to re-think calling a new startup, "Phoenix Aviation". A famous pilot, Paul Mantz, was in the process of flying a similar* aircraft during the filming of "The Flight of the Phoenix" in 1965 . . . the aircraft broke apart where the tail section connected with the fuselage . . . Mantz was killed.

And "jets" rarely rise from the ashes.

This is one disaster best left alone . . . something to walk away from . . . an expensive education, not to be repeated.

gadfly

(*similar, in the sense of the connection between the fuselage and tail section . . . not at all comforting, based on past comments about such things.)

AERO_PAINS said...

If you are a manufacturer for Eclispe and this has put you out of business or almost, please send me an email with your contact information type of company. We might be able to help
aeropains@hotmail.com

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

Lets not forget what Roel said as why Eclipse wouldn't be forced into involuntary BK:
“I would be very surprised if a bankruptcy judge would even go there with all the jobs at stake and all the other obligations at stake,” Pieper said.
AIN:Pieper Confident about Eclipse Production Prospects
Now we see how Roel treated his employees after saying that...he didn't pay them for their work!

Also in that same article Roel said that Eclipse had enough money:
The company does have enough cash on hand to move forward with the new production plans, according to Pieper, thanks in part to a recent financial infusion from its agreement to build a factory in Russia, but Eclipse is also seeking a final round of equity financing. This round, being arranged by financial firm UBS, should close in the next few weeks.

So Roel said Eclipse already had enough money due to Russian financing and now the world can see the results.

Zed said...

Some inside indications that Eclipse shut the service centers for safety and performance reasons ... seems that the mechanics understandably have not been concentrating on their work.

At least a few owners showed up to get their jets today only to find the doors locked.

Feedback from ABQ employees has been part frustration - part optimism. Perhaps the RedBull has been laced, or their crystal ball is really a Christmas snow globe.

Turboprop_pilot said...

B95:

I have started or turned around four businesses and have NEVER missed payroll or not paid employees or vendors or not returned capital to my investors with a nice return attached. And I am an entrepreneur (E&Y Entrepreneur of the Year in 2002).

I completely disagree with you on Eclipse legal wrong doings- it was a dishonest sham from the start with continual lies about their orderbook, lies about their vendors, lies to the State of New Mexico. It the mess there are surely prosecutable offenses that may never be pursued- but they should be. They never delivered one completed plane and lied to get deposits far ahead of a delivery date that they knew was a lie.

They sully the reputation of all real entrepreneurs,as much as Enron and Worldcom did.

Turboprop_pilot

I am really sensitive about this, as an entrepreneur, engineer and early stage investor.

AERO_PAINS said...

Sorry, I have lost almost everything due to Eclipse. I am just trying to help if I can.

Dave said...

Here's some more details:
She told them the company encountered a last-minute problem getting financing from Europe to pay employees for their last two weeks of work...

"They knew that they were in this financial bind," Eveland said. "I just cannot believe they just found out the day before. If that's the case, no one should be doing business with them."

It also left the company's 1,400 employees in limbo, Eveland said, because unless layoffs are announced, they cannot apply for unemployment benefits...

But the State Investment Council remains "cautiously optimistic" about Eclipse's future, he said.

NM Eclipse employees unpaid for 2 weeks' work

eclipso said...

Dave, maybe you can help, but I THINK there is something in the DOL laws that say if you are not paid by the foolowing payday, you WILL be qualified for unemployment benefits. I am looking myself, but just walked in and i know how resourceful you can be.

BEG said:
"and give her credit for being at least adequately competent and typically ethical."

BEG,
I worked for Peg, and sorry, but I HAVE to call BS on that one...Peg is only for Peg and seemed to learn REAL well from Vern..don't think for a minute that she didn't get paid. Probably more for the past two weeks than the payroll would have been. I hope her ass ends up in prison with Vern, Ed, Roel and th POS Governor of NM!

Curt_MSN said...

"But the State Investment Council remains "cautiously optimistic" about Eclipse's future, he said."

I am sure they are...how much does the state of NM have wrapped up in this?

bill e. goat said...

Aero_Pain,
I am sorry I mis-associated you someone who appeared to be preying upon the situation, and sorry for your loss.
I removed my earlier post.
-Goat.

Dave said...

Dave, maybe you can help, but I THINK there is something in the DOL laws that say if you are not paid by the foolowing payday, you WILL be qualified for unemployment benefits. I am looking myself, but just walked in and i know how resourceful you can be.

I've found California, but I believe it applies nationwide regarding being "constructively discharged":
If you tell the EDD you quit, but did so "involuntarily," the EDD will inquire as to why you did so. If the EDD determines that under the circumstances your quitting was reasonable, meaning a reasonable person would have quit rather than suffer, or continue to suffer harm [due to the employer's wrongful conduct], the EDD may consider your quitting equivalent to the employer firing you. If the EDD makes this determination, it should award you benefits. In a sense, the EDD would have made a decision that you were "constructively discharged," meaning that even though you quit, workplace events and the law consider the employer to have fired you.
EmploymentLaw.com: Unemployment Benefits
I think all an Eclipse employee would have to do is bring in all the press clippings regarding Eclipse failing to pay their employees. This takes an administrative ruling of the EDD, but it is false to characterize that it is in Eclipse's hands whether someone can get unemployment after Eclipse refuses to pay them. There might be a specific regulation which you speak of, but this regulation would also apply more generally.

Dave said...

The problem of course is that the NM EDD is themselves wrapped up in this having given Eclipse millions in grants for training, however, I don't think some rank-and-file EDD employee is going to go along with covering up for the higher ups at EDD and the NM politicos. All this could get real nasty.

eclipso said...

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_unemployment_NM.html#Eligibility



Eligibility for New Mexico Unemployment Benefits

The basic requirements for collecting unemployment are:
1) You must have been employed. The New Mexico Department of Labor publishes requirements for wages earned or time worked during an established period of time referred to as a "base period."

2) You must be determined to be unemployed through no fault of your own as defined under New Mexico law.

3) You must file ongoing claims and respond to questions concerning your continued eligibility.
4) You must report any earnings from work and any job offers or refusal of work during any claim period.
5) Meet any other unemployment eligibility requirements of New Mexico law


Maybe under #2, one could say they are unemployed due to NO pay which is no fault of their own.

I had a person in a similar situation that advises to get as many employees to go together to the Dept of Labor office downtown

Dave said...

NM Employment law recognizes "constructive discharge." Here's a NM Surpreme Court case finding for the plaintiff claiming constructive discharge:
NM Supreme Court:Littell v Allstate

eclipso said...

New Mexico Department of Labor


501 Mountain Rd NE
Albuquerque, NM 87102-2400
Phone: (505) 841-9300

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Where will Roel be going sailing this weekend?

Dave said...

I had a person in a similar situation that advises to get as many employees to go together to the Dept of Labor office downtown

I would agree. Get as many employees as possible and hopefully reporters as well. I really think this would be a case of "constructive discharge," but it wouldn't hurt having media attention. If nothing else, I think it might make it harder for Eclipse to continue with their silly claims that they don't have to pay unemployment.

Dave said...

Assembly line shut down and NM EDD mentions the "B" word:
NMBW:Eclipse workers sent home without pay

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Raburn: Aviation Industry ‘Eats Its Young’
Eclipse Aviation founder and former CEO Vern Raburn stole the show at a VLJ forum held Tuesday and yesterday in West Palm Beach, Fla., with his day-one closing comments, in which he spoke candidly about the aviation industry and Eclipse Aviation. “This is an industry that eats its young,” he said. “It’s fraught with people whose comment to anything new is, ‘It can’t be done. It hasn’t been done, so it shouldn’t be done.’” He said it’s “phenomenally sad” that the industry has lost its spirit of entrepreneurship and willingness to take risks. He also accused the FAA of being “100 percent political” and blamed unions for the Eclipse congressional hearings. “We are in for a tough haul with the FAA,” he said. “We’re going into the dark ages.” Raburn also admitted that he did not leave Eclipse voluntarily. “I got fired. The reason I got fired was simple: I pissed off the investors,” he said, adding that he has “zero association” with the company today. “That is partially their choice, partially my choice,” he said. “I’m not good at being number two.” Raburn also took a shot at anonymous bloggers, calling them “idiots and cowards,” a reference to comments made by Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin about anonymous sources. “They do it through anonymity,” he said. “They’re cockroaches trying to hide under rocks.”

Zed said...

Here's a thought.

Eclipse should get reclassified as a bank and thus be eligible for the $700B taxpayer bailout.

Lehman Bros did it (in 18 hours on a football Sunday)

AmEx did it.

So why not VernEx?

Eclipse certainly has lots of money on deposit, and will cheerfully provide you a Certificate with your Deposit

Eclipse seems to be a Savings and Loan. We all know that loans have saved them many, many times.

Eclipse has a network of ATMs around the world. OK, there is only one ATM … but he is prolific, and does travel occasionally.

Eclipse seems to exercise in inter-bank arbitrage … in fact, they move money faster than a team of forensic accountants can follow.

They now work banker’s hours … are closed weekends, holidays, and hmmmm …. most weekdays as well.

They have a guard at the door, and video surveillance, and a vault (OK, maybe not the vault).

Heck, they even give away toasters … that thankfully also warm the cabin at altitude.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
julius said...

I think all this could be a pre capitalistic trial to get rid of some employees. If the employees do their phone call (trials) and return to work everything will be "ok". The money will be there soon. If the check bounces - not too good for EAC, too.

In the end the reputation of EAC and it's exec team is seriously damaged.

Julius

P. S.: Who cares? ....I think quite a lot of people ... in both ways!

Dave said...

in which he spoke candidly about the aviation industry and Eclipse Aviation. “This is an industry that eats its young,” he said. “It’s fraught with people whose comment to anything new is, ‘It can’t be done. It hasn’t been done, so it shouldn’t be done.’” He said it’s “phenomenally sad” that the industry has lost its spirit of entrepreneurship and willingness to take risks.

Nevermind the many companies that tried to compete with VLJs and those still standing. It seems like Vern worked for Apple rather than Microsoft given his strong Reality Distortion Field.

He also accused the FAA of being “100 percent political”

What a huge joke. Eclipse has been totally political with Vern in particular trying to buy politicians.

“I’m not good at being number two.”

Vern still hasn't learned. I guess for the rest of his life he'll go through it with a bad attitude.

Raburn also took a shot at anonymous bloggers, calling them “idiots and cowards,” a reference to comments made by Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin about anonymous sources. “They do it through anonymity,” he said. “They’re cockroaches trying to hide under rocks.”

Many bloggers before and since have posted openly and given their identities, but it didn't stop Vern from breaking his promise that he would engage non-anonymous comments. It is also the height of hypocrisy to complain of anonymous bloggers while suing said bloggers in addition saying one thing to the public (bloggers are wrong) and another thing to the court (bloggers are right).

Orville said...

Why is the idiot - who just called us idiots - still flying an E500 (N528EA) registered to EAC - an EAC asset?

eclipso said...

I think if 100 or more employees showed uo at the DOL office at the same time, the media would HAVE to notice.

Curt_MSN said...

Julius:

"The money will be there soon..."

What makes you think that?

Dave said...

Why is the idiot - who just called us idiots - still flying an E500 (N528EA) registered to EAC - an EAC asset?

Just wait for it to be repoed. It is owned by Eclipse, so it can be sold off to pay off the employees and customers who trusted the idiotic coward Vern. Vern's comments show that he cares about nobody but himself.

eclipso said...

Even if Vern "says" he has NOTHING to do with Eclipse, I don't think that will keep the bar from slamming shut on him.

Orville has a excellent point. Vern has an EA499.1/2, so he DOES still have ties with them. Who will fix HIS airplane. I'm willing to bet there are several people that would like to "fix" it for him

gadfly said...

When I was a kid, we would “wind up” the single rope swing, that hung from the live oak tree in the back yard in the Verdugo Foothills, near Burbank, and un-wind to the point of being completely sick and dizzy beyond ability to function. And then, on recovery, we’d do it again.

But this Eclipse thing is beyond that . . . maybe not a full magnitude, but enough to make anyone lose all credibility in anything said by Eclipse, the “State Investment Council”, the “spokesman” for Mayor Chavez, the governor, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum . . . with emphasis on “Nauseum”. (For those in Rio Linda . . . think “really sick”!)

There is much more to say, but this blog-site would not contain what I think of the behavior of Eclipse management, in their treatment of their “employees”. It is my firm opinion that they should all be awarded free housing in a gated community, halfway between our home and the city of Santa Fe . . . unless the “Feds” have a better living facility in mind.

gadfly

(Events sometime trigger memories . . . this event brings memories from the distant past . . . basement kitchen/scullery of my “alma mater”, 820 N. La Salle St., Chicago, Illinois . . . among my duties of “swabbing” out the kitchen every night, working my way through school. ‘Funny things a person will do, to get a pilot’s license and A&P ticket. I had the wonderful job of cleaning out the “grease trap”. Chicago cockroaches living in the sewers, and rancid grease, for a kitchen serving a thousand students, three meals each day, give me a similar picture of the political environment of Eclipse, and those in political power in New Mexico, that allowed this travesty to continue, and harm so many families. Picture perfect! And, yeh, I’m that old.)

Dave said...

So what has Mayor Chavez done for Eclipse's employees given how they're not being paid? He claims he's always in "close conversation" with them, so what did he know and when did he know it?:
"I am always in close conversation with Eclipse," Chavez said. "They're such an important employer for the city of Albuquerque."
KOAT:Chavez, Richardson Hopeful For Eclipse's Future

gadfly said...

Dave

For the record, I didn’t collaborate with you . . . in fact, I don’t even know you. But your reference to his majesty, the “Mayor”, emphasizes why politicians should be held fully accountable for each and every word that falls from their golden lips.

gadfly

(Fret not, neither worry . . . the gadfly will have more to say, as this fiasco unfolds.)

baron95 said...

Dave, give it up. For an obviously very smart person, you have a very selective "agenda".

1 - It is NOT a requirement to be formally fired to collect unemployment. If your employer does not pay you (1 or 2 pay periods depending on the state), you can and should apply for unemployment.

2 - Eclipse has NOTHING to gain by not laying off the employees. They probably are either still trying to get the funds or they don't have people to formally process the employees out the door (i.e. human resources can't get paid either). Unemployment benefits are NOT paid by Eclipse. IF they were to continue as employers, their unemployment insurance contribution may go up, due to past performance, but this is a far removed issue for them.

3 - The DoJ will prosecute you if you deduct payrol taxes from your employees and then failed to send it to the IRS/SSA. That is obviously a crive, fraud, theft, embezzlement. Simply runing out of money is NOT a crime. Never was. If you knew you didn't have money and fraudulent induced employees to continue to work, that CAN be a crime. Given that Eclipse made the previous payrol, it may be prety hard to prove they knew way before hand they couldn't make this one.

4 - Prosecute Eclipse? Who do you wan't to prosecute? Prosecuting the corporate entity is fruitless in this case. So which officer of Eclipse do you want to prosecute? And what is the charge? That they knew their owner/investors was not going to cough up the payroll money this time, having done it for the past dozen+ payrolls? Good Luck.

Julius - you are substantially worse than even Fred. This is still the:

U

S

A

Not Cuba or North Korea or France. Investors take risks and get punished or rewarded and so do employees based on their choices of which jobs to take and which compensation packages to accept. We already have a teenage-brother to deal with, but we still do not have a BIG-BROTHER "guiding" us.

TP - So am I. And each circumstance is different. Some companies try to the last minute and end abruptly. Lehaman, Pan-Am, Eastern, Adam, were here one day, gone the next. Some have more time for a graceful exit. There is no write or wrong.

It is INCONCEIVABLE that ANY Eclipse emplyee did not know that sooner or later they may not be paid for the last few days of work if Eclipse failed.

It is LIKELY that EVERY remaining Eclipse employee has been actively looking and positioning themselves for an exit and new job for quite some time. They'd leave Eclipse on the spot, with no concerns whatsoever for Eclipse's future if offered the opportunity. Nothing wrong with it. And nothing wrong with Eclipse failing at the last minute.

Good luck to Eclipse former employees.

Good luck to Eclipse owners and depositors.

Good luck to Eclipse investors.

Good luck to GA in not further discouraging investment in new projects.

All will need it. If this mess can be salvaged as a servicing company, as suggested here, my guess is that it will need between 50 and 150 emplyees tops, to support a fleet of 250.

So don't get your hopes up in ABQ.

baron95 said...

Sorry for all the obvious typos above - no time to fix.

Good luck to all associated with Eclipse.

Deep Blue said...

Now the business issues, still to be reconciled, may be put forward:

1. Where did EAC allocate its cash the last 8 years? What amounts went to Sr. management for "deferred comp," expenses, salary, bonuses, special dividends, "settlements," retirement funds, special payments, stock purchases, executive comp goodies like houses, cars, clubs, airplanes.

2. What did Roel Pieper do with EAC's cash the last 120 days? Who was paid? What pref payments were made? What funds were wired transferred inside/outside the US? What new contracts were written by the ETIRC gang while they were technically insolvent and never able to honor them?

3. What was the EAC BOD doing the last 120 days (let alone last 5 years)? Was a third-party audit conducted? Did the Board order a forensic audit?

Prediction:

No EAC V.2. Company liquidated Chapter 7. No after-market support ever materialzes. Hobby hangar only for experimental gang to play with the airplane. FAA issues still to be uncovered, corrected and penalized by next Administration. RP/ETIRC on their way to EU; ABQ facility and real estate in New Mexico State possession; some "MRO" shop or FBO takes it on generous "lease" terms or State floats a small bond to finance for some newco.

Vern's comments about Blog? He only further demonstrates his inherent instability and especially, his dissociation (acute mental decompensation), and of course his resultant abuse of the professional business community. He may be at risk to injure himself or others (I don't think RP will have this problem; his DSM is simply "idiocy;" lots of good clinics for that in Old Europe).

julius said...

curt_msn,

What makes you think that?


RP did not say that he cannot pay the employees, otherwise he has to declare himself bunkrupt.

I think EAC is just needed for the EASA cert (,if a not producing company can get an EASA Cert as needed! - see Fred above).
Furthermore he cannot layoff too many employees at a time.
But that does not mean that there might be an involuntary BK quite soon!

Just my ideas!

Julius

Orville said...

RP did not say that he cannot pay the employees, otherwise he has to declare himself bunkrupt.

I hate to defend RP/EAC - however, while there are tons of ethical issues - RP has no obligation to personally pay EAC employees.

eclipso said...

Orville,

EAC DOES have a Federal obligation, if only minimum wage.
While EAC is an "at will" company, They do have contracts for wages, benefits, etc unless the DO invoke their "at will" termination rights.

Orville said...

EAC does - yes. The inference was that RP had a personal obligation to fund the payroll - out of his own pocket - which he sadly, does not.

gadfly said...

This discussion has of late taken a strange turn, yet unfortunately reflects the contemporary view of ethics . . . if it’s not required by the letter of the law, it can be totally ignored. But it’s not actually contemporary, but goes back over two thousand years, at the least.

Well, ‘back to the present. In contemporary mind-set, if the “management” were treated as they have treated the “workers”, the scream would be heard ‘round the world, and attended by a thousand lawyers.

But the “workers” cannot afford Philadelphia lawyers, so “management” feels safe (for the moment . . . enjoy it while you can!).

There is little point of going further, but suffice it to say, history demonstrates that all chickens come home to roost . . . and for those involved, the sun is dropping low.

gadfly

WhyTech said...

“I’m not good at being number two.”

I cant help but observe: not so good at being number one either.

eclipso said...

Now THAT was funny

eclipso said...

...or number 18...according to Bill Gates

eclipse_deep_throat said...

KOB has added a few updates since this morning. This one is interesting:

The City of Albuquerque said Eclipse has fallen two months behind on lease payments for its space at the Albuquerque Sunport.

Anyone with more than 2 brain cells who is owed money by EAC will get their lawyers to file suit ASAP, especially if they have a contract, a PO, a statement of work, or some other prior biz relationship that stipulated net 30 day terms. I'm sure all the unsecured creditors are getting their ducks in a row so papers can be filed by Monday if not sooner. Just like with DayJet, once the $$$ is gone, then others start taking action. I wonder then if UT Finance will repo the DayJet fleet from Eclipse...

E.D.T.

julius said...

Orville,

RP did not say that he cannot...

thank you ... it should read "EAC cannot "!
Naturally EAC has to pay the bill etc.


Baron95,

a redundancy due to business operations also happens in Europe. Bigger companies try to avoid this, but it's part of the business changes.
But I think EAC is something special even in USA.
Naturally it's easier to change the employer in Germany than in NM.

Julius

gadfly said...

Someone above said “Good Luck!” . . . and other words to that effect. What does that really mean? Actually, nothing. A “wish” for “good luck” or anything else costs absolutely nothing . . . and is therefore worth the same.

Maybe those in management at Eclipse also wished their employees, “good luck” . . . and the employees are expected to take that “wish” to the local grocery store, or to the bank, to pay for their family’s survival. ("They stayed up all night, trying to figure a way to solve the problem" . . . give me a break!)

A curse on you, who treat your employees in such a manner . . . (as a Persian friend of many years ago used to say in my early days of aviation training), “May the fleas of a thousand camels attack your armpits!”

And, an even worse curse . . . “May all your sons die scratching!”

Well, I’m not quite to the second curse, yet, but you who have treated the citizens of Albuquerque in such a cavalier (disdainful) manner should be held fully accountable for your behavior, and actions . . . and let us not forget the “plump one with the beard” who sometimes visits Santa Fe (between trips to DC, to gain a position in the "new cabinet").

But those who held the “purse strings” of Eclipse for these many years, the “flea treatment” seems not only reasonable, but possibly rather tame compared to what may be deserved.

gadfly

(Arabs sometimes get right down to the basics!)

Black Tulip said...

Vern has shown that he is a real Number Two. He's Number One in the Number Two business.

But he has done the anonymous bloggers a favor. We can now claim victim status... another reviled and downtrodden class. Compared to cockroaches - nobody cares about them. You only hear about 'em as it relates to nuclear war. Afterwards the only two creatures left will be cockroaches and ham radio operators.

I agree with Deep Blue's assessment of the future. We now await input from The Faithful about how, if fact, this is very good news - "two hundred and fifty out there with a major upgrade and service opportunity (the aeronautical equivalent of 'too big to fail'.)

Shane Price said...

ATTENTION VERN RABURN

Raburn also took a shot at anonymous bloggers, calling them “idiots and cowards,” a reference to comments made by Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin about anonymous sources. “They do it through anonymity,” he said. “They’re cockroaches trying to hide under rocks.”

If this is an accurate report of what you said, you are a bold faced liar. You had an excellent opportunity during you pathetic attempt to SLAPP the blog to name me as one of the 'honor roll' but you didn't. I am not now, or ever have been at any time in my life 'anonymous'.

If you meant what you said, you are a fool. Sadly, in business, this makes you dangerous. However, I'm happy to say that I have the resources, the methods, the network of contacts and the influence to make sure the rest of your life is very, very public. I'll do my best to ensure you never get another chance to screw up the lives of so many people. Ever.

If you really believe what you said, you are in need of serious medical help, which I'm sure you can afford. Sadly, your ex employees no longer enjoy health cover due in no small part to the fantasy you created to feed your own ego.

You can reach me at any time to discuss these matters, Shouldn't cost you more than a dollar, which will seem like excellent value compared to the $150 million you blew, every year, for almost 10 years.....

You call me a cockroach and an idiot?

Both have more brains than you do.

And a lot more business sense as well.

Shane

Shane Price said...

BLOG RULE NUMBER TWO*

Vern Raburn = Wedge.

The simplest tool known to mankind.

From now on, the word 'Wedge' will replace the words 'Vern' or 'Raburn' on the blog.

I'm fed up being insulted by this 'idiot' and thank everyone in advance for their co-operation.

Shane
* We have very few rules on the blog....

Dave Ivedorne said...

BLOG RULE NUMBER TWO*

Vern Raburn = Wedge.


Too funny, Shane...

...I step away from my screen for a few minutes to read an article while taking a wedge, and this plops out.

Employees MUST wash hands before returning to work,
DI

FaithFul said...

I would like to take a moment, and tell all the EX and CURRENT Eclipsers, that our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family tonight, and all of the nights of unknown to come.

So many of us are struggling with difficult times and the Holiday season is upon us, but with each other, and through the goodness of others, we will all get through this.

"Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved."
- William Jennings Bryan

Again, we are praying for you; all of you.

It will be okay.

just zis guy, ya know? said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

Dark Blossom and our Irish Friend,

In defense of cockroaches and “Ham Operators” . . . (they are of different species . . . really and truly) . . . I’ve learned much from both. It’s easy to tell the difference, the former live in drains and things, the latter come from outer space . . . possibly the back side of the moon (although I have not yet been able to prove it).

Cockroaches are “survivors” . . . they take whatever is thrown at them (literally), and continue to inhabit the same turf.

Ham Operators are not troubled by anything that we can call “normal life”, but live apart from reality . . . only coming in contact with mankind to purchase a new “crystal” for an oscillator (they build their own, don’t you know) . . . or a length of co-ax cable.

“Back when”, I learned the basics of electronics from a “Radio Amateur’s Handbook”, borrowed from one of these creatures from outer space . . . and “aced” my way through electronic’s school in the Navy because of them.

Later, I learned how creatures other than humans can survive aboard a submarine . . . and travel at lightning speed across a deck in the “after battery”. Or come up for air under a drain cover in a basement in Chicago. (Have you ever seen an albino cockroach? . . . ‘most interesting! . . . they mush just like the others, but “lighter”.)

So, don’t degrade the reputations of creatures that have been a part of my “youth”.

And, Shane, I’ve known folks with a “PhD” after their name that had less intelligence than some cockroaches . . . so that’s not always an insult. But being called a “ham operator” is another story . . . but they wouldn’t “get it”, so “not to worry”.

OK . . . now that I’ve insulted ‘just about everyone on the planet, I’ll close for now.

gadfly

(But I’ll be back!)

Black Tulip said...

Gadfly,

Sorry to associate you with ham radio operators. (Full disclosure here: Novice license at age fourteen, now Amateur Extra Class.)

gadfly said...

'Tulip

'Sorry to learn of your disability . . . I had my suspicions, but didn't wish to pry. It's most difficult to overcome our early training . . . but we'll make the most of it.

gadfly

(How does a fly laugh with a sarcastic grin? And, by the way, come on by when this thing is over. OK?)

airtaximan said...

The most particular thing I've notice about Vern over the years, is that his public statements are always a revelation of the truth - you need to look at what he says, and take it for what its worth, the opposite of the truth.

“This is an industry that eats its young,”

TRUTH: he milked the industry, not the other way around. This industry enabled him to raise and blow $2B. His approach was to "eat" his customers.

“It’s fraught with people whose comment to anything new is, ‘It can’t be done. It hasn’t been done, so it shouldn’t be done.’”
TRUTH: there are many new products, advancements and shifts going on - perhaps its not what HE thought, but HIS failure to meet the market only means what he was trying to do in FACT cannot be done. He never delivered on the intial promise, baited and switched all along, and in the end proved the market rejected his product. He should not have tried to sell THAT plane in high volume at forward low low price, becasue there was no volume.


He said it’s “phenomenally sad” that the industry has lost its spirit of entrepreneurship and willingness to take risks.
TRUTH: Vern raised and blew Billions, got all kinds of industry, supplier, gov't support, and is now blaming the industry for not enough backing to his entrepreneurial venture? He got this backing for a completely unrealistic business plan, whose technologies all FAILED to materialize any tangable value. He still was able to get support, even for something that was completely utlandish and built on a very lofty false premise.

He also accused the FAA of being “100 percent political” and blamed unions for the Eclipse congressional hearings. “We are in for a tough haul with the FAA,” he said. “We’re going into the dark ages.”
TRUTH: he milked the FAA from the political side, and it was the union members who actually upheld the prmise of safety first. The dark ages would be had no one reported what was really going on. Safety first.

Raburn also admitted that he did not leave Eclipse voluntarily. “I got fired. The reason I got fired was simple: I pissed off the investors,”
TRUTH: he got fired becasue he made a deal with Roel for financing, and Roel took over. So, he voluntarily entered into a deal whereby he could be removed - any surprise?

“I’m not good at being number two.”
TRUTH: Vern was am not good at being number 1 - he is responsible for blowing Billions.

Raburn also took a shot at anonymous bloggers, calling them “idiots and cowards,” a reference to comments made by Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin about anonymous sources. “They do it through anonymity,” he said. “They’re cockroaches trying to hide under rocks.”
TRUTH: he tried to shut down the blog because we are mostly right. Much of journalism and reporting is based on anonymous tips, and protected sources. He should get over it. Vern is a big baby, and he probably should have relished this blog as a resource, but the truth is not his friend, so he must resort to parroting Sarah Palin - pretty sad comment, right there.

Vern is a remarkable guy - in a terribly backward industry, with no appreciation for entrpreneurship, and one where the big guys eat their young, he was able to start a company, garner the support of some big companies and small ones alike, raise and blow $2B or more, obtain government support and certifications, deliver unfinished planes that his customers took along with IOU's, spend the customers deposit money and give many of them nothing at all... I personally don't think it gets much better than that for an entrepreneur, do you?

He now somehow is mad at the world, including a blog.

I think he should have praised the industry, praised the suppliers, prasied the FAA, and praised the risk-taker-customers that supported his dream... with their hard earned cash, which he burned.

But parroting Sarah Palin?

C'mon.

Bottom line, he missed the market with his idea of what everyone else whould really want - this is a big mistake, and IS the reason there was this blog.

BIG SPOTLIGHT ON ALL HIS BS, especially the idea that he could get volume to support a low low price. I think Vern knew a long time ago, this was complete BS.

This guy lost BIG, and hurt a lot of people. He should not be pointing any fingers, and should find a rock to crawl under, himself. This is why he calls us cockroaches.

Deep down, he knows... we all know, and he knows.

Shane Price said...

Gadfly,

Back when I was younger, my uncle started the first 'pirate' radio station based on a ship in the North Sea. He named it after Grace Kelly's daughter, hence 'Radio Caroline'.

When I'd added a few years myself, I started building transmitters, installing them, rigging quarter and half wave aerials, training the people to run them, and doing DJ in my 'spare' time.

While holding down a full time job, of course...

I tend to agree that radio was always slightly detached from reality, and by extension, sanity.

Cockroaches don't seem to like our climate very much, so I've little experience with them. If I was too quick in my judgement, I'll happily apologize to cockroaches everywhere.

I'm just not sure they will understand...

Shane

eclipse_deep_throat said...

Well put Shane!!!

If only I had 15 minutes alone with Vern in a room without windows...

All of their failures over the past 10 years are too numerous to mention; I am sure there are plenty of stories that we will never hear about. Maybe the post-mortem will be published in an issue of Harvard Business Review since this is one case study that needs a broader audience.

There are people like me who are idealistic in wishing, hoping, or pretending that the world of Management should be scientific. That it is an art AND science depending on the project at hand. My step-father at Lockheed Martin actually used Jean Luc Picard from Star Trek as a management role model. I was blown away in biz school that one Professor, right here at UNM in Albuquerque, used contemporary movies to point out management roles and conflicts.

To be honest, I've had my bad days when I treated customers (at different companies) like shit just because I could get away with it. Recently I saw a guy with a book he was plugging on the Today show, I wish I could remember the name, but he was essentially trying to make the point that Kings, Queens, Presidents, and Executives, etc. are not blessed with divine knowledge as part of their title or birthright. So the point of this silly missive is that so many well "educated" people get it wrong no matter what. And history has plenty of examples of many people who failed to manage the resources at their disposal properly: military or sports examples are de riguer. How many dead Generals or Admirals would want one more try on the battlefield?

The one term that I hear so often now is "moral hazard," generally defined as the inherent problem when someone insulated from risk tends to behave differently as opposed to if they were fully exposed to that risk. Not that I am here to excuse Vern, but I think there were many structural failures of the corporate cogs and gears that insulated Vern from the risk of failure. Like having a compliant Board of Directors. Or a revolving door of managers, anyone that has the balls to tell Truth to Power is kicked out of Vern's tree house. The moral hazard is that Vern's KEY SKILL was his own ability to insulate himself from reality -- based on his only major talent of being able to raise cash -- his ability to sell the Kool-Aid. Is that no different from Billy Durant in 1920, setting up what is now General Motors? If Vern couldn't get others to go along with this ....EAC would have run out of cash 5 years ago. And every time he couldn't get a supplier to play in the sandbox with him on HIS terms, all it took was more money to find a new submissive supplier.

Vern is just as human as you or me ...and gosh, I doubt he would have listened to me if I tried talking to him. I did get him a gift for Xmas 2006 .....a DVD copy of 2001: A Space Odyssey. I figured, even if he already had seen the film, he would get the point about us building better tools as we advance in human knowledge. He never did reply or acknowledge the gift.

Oh well, no big deal. I don't think he had any kind of evil intent to hurt people ...but it doesn't sound like he will admit his failure(s) to be a real leader for the organization.

E.D.T.
(And in case he wants to find me, EDT = Christopher J. van Lone, formerly your QA Metrology Administrator)

gadfly said...

Shane

Don’t let this little twerp get to you . . . he ain’t worth it. Your friends know you, and your enemies will not believe the truth . . . so don’t waste your time with them.

You continue to do a good service . . . exposing the “roaches” as they attempt to hide.

That’s enough in itself . . . time will vindicate your efforts. For which we are most grateful. Yes, you know all this from your friends, but I don’t want for a moment to leave the slightest doubt, . . . our thanks to you!

gadfly

WhyTech said...

"Novice license at age fourteen, now Amateur Extra Class.)"

Many suffer from this affliction. (SWL at 7, Novice at 13.)Some of us had the good sense to stop while we were ahead!

WhyTech said...

"I personally don't think it gets much better than that for an entrepreneur, do you?"

Missing from your excellent list: being awarded the Collier Trophy as a newcomer to the industry (and more on the basis of promise rather than solid, substantive achiecvement).

airtaximan said...

Whytech,

you are right, but I still just cannot come to grips with the idea they gave him/them the Collier...

forward-observer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jeriksen said...

EDT

"I did get him a gift for Xmas 2006 .....a DVD copy of 2001: A Space Odyssey. I figured, even if he already had seen the film, he would get the point about us building better tools as we advance in human knowledge. He never did reply or acknowledge the gift."

He probably thought you were giving the plane and its HAL-like tendencies a back-handed insult.

Jeff

Zed said...

Hopefully NAA will reposess the Collier Trophy and redact the record books, or at least add an asterisk.

* Great Idea, Compelling Elevator Pitch, Laughable Execution, Culminated in Disgrace

just zis guy, ya know? said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Turboprop_pilot said...

Forward Observer

What a great post. Wedge is a paranoid psychotic who tries to go around all rules and then blames and accuses everyone else when he is caught. Baron's feeling that he was a great entrepreneur who tried and failed denigrates real entrepreneurs who played within a moral framework and succeeded.

Turboprop_pilot

Turboprop_pilot said...

On the news tonight there was a report on the 63 question form required to be filled out by all applicants for jobs in the Obama administration. Several should give NM's plump governor problems: Have you ever sent an e mail that would cause you embarrassment? and I'm sure several morality questions that his highness should fail based on SIV and the state's investments.

Turboprop_pilot

Black Tulip said...

Forward Observer,

Put it back - well done.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Funny you guys are talking ham stuff. Just got my general on Monday, lots of fun thus far. Maybe I can make contact with you guys one day, and you know we'll have something to chew the rag about. Till then boys.

Dave Ivedorne said...

Wedge also took a shot at anonymous bloggers, calling them “idiots and cowards,” a reference to comments made by Republican vice presidential candidate Caribou Barbie about anonymous sources.

Note to Wedge: Caribou Barbie lost too, just like you. But she didn't blow in excess of $1B along the way...

Go to the back of the soup line,
DI

Dave Ivedorne said...

F-O

Brilliant post. Inspiring, and confidence inspiring. Manifesto-grade.

Please restore it.

DI

drillingahead said...

Truly a sad but expected turn of events for the employees and moreover the poor depositors with 60% payments paid in. One such depositor is estimating that Eclipse is or was sitting on at least $125MM in deposits. On top of that there are 250 owners waiting out there to see if their dream jet will be AOG. Most owners I know have said they are ready for the shoe to drop and see how this plays out. I know many have told Eclipse they would pony up the cash to get some of their IOU's but the company has no way of doing it. It is time to end this crazy rollercoaster. I flew in a friends plane yesterday and he is wondering when his plane will be rendured AOG. Sad position to be in.

baron95 said...

gadfly said...
A “wish” for “good luck” or anything else costs absolutely nothing . . . and is therefore worth the same.


Probably the most disapointing thing I've read from you on this blog.

A wish of good luck is a message from one human being to another signaling solidarity and positive thoughts for an upcoming quest or challenge.

It is extremely sad that you never experienced the joy and confidence building reaction of a child when a parent wishes him or her "good luck" before a sports game or a play or hundreds of other important events.

Or the warmth that of a spouse whishing good luck to husdband or wife about to go into harms way (war) or a job interview, labor (the cheildbirth variety)or many other life events.

Or a blogger that took the time to think a good though, and spend the energy to write a typo-filled message of encouragement to those that found themselves jobless at a tough time.

It is just too bad that you think these are worth nothing. Thankfully, my family, my friends, my co-workers think otherwise, and maybe, just maybe, some of the folks affected by Eclipse will do to, and take one tiny bit of consolation for a simple but genuine "Good Luck" wish.

So, Gad, despite your bitter and sinical comment, I'll repeat it one more time.

A sincere and heart felt "Good Luck" to all that were adverselly affected by Eclipse. The worst, in due time, shall pass. Give your loved ones an extra hug tonight. That is more important than anything related to EAC.

gadfly said...

No, B95, I'll pray with and for them, to my living God, and spend time with them, giving them my full and undivided attention . . . provide for their tangible needs, when appropriate.

But wishing them something that does not exist, I will not do.

gadfly

fred said...

Baron :

yes , i am very bad !

Julius might even worse than me ...
(Entschuldigungen, mein Freund !)

please WAKE UP !

stop being manipulated and blinded by your own desires !

if you want to know and to show you i know a little bit more your country than you will probably ever know mine(s)...

please read the 17th January 1961 Eisenhower's farewell speech ...

then you MAY understand what , why and how things went wrong !

the most funny thing into this , i dreamed about USA when i was young ... had the luck to a long spend time there ... only to understand this :

Like with EAC , Dreams are VERY far from reality !

this is WHY i believe in Individuals of Quality ... much less into the concept than coming from a specified place on Earth (or outer space for some ...;-) )
is in ANY way a guaranty of ANY intrinsic utter-qualities ...but NOT AT ALL in peoples claiming about those "place=quality" ...!

fred said...

dave :

reading your link on Basket , i followed the tag about roel's other business .... (MyGuide) !

it is utterly funny !

links to "future function of our website" to promote a product to be "available soon" ...

does it remind anything to anyone ??? ;-))

if any had still some doubts of the "entrepreneur spirit" of the sir , someone should explain him that having "entrepreneurial skills and spirit" is SOMETIME to finish your projects as well ...

a bit like the XX Billions $ that was supposed to be invested in Russia to produce hydrogen out of the Baikal lake ...

unless it was to produce solid hydrogen from stones of Baikal ...

or making fish out of hydrogen ...

or turning shit into gold ...

or something like that ! ;-))

fred said...

Monsieur Shane :

as much as i agree on the name we should give to a few , even their mothers would like to have never met them ...

i think Wedge is not really properly adequate !

a Wedge (at least the real ones) can be of some use !

fred said...

as for the speculation of a NEW firm servicing the 250 units ...

may be it would be a good way to finish a few with spare-parts taken on some others to be "sacrificed" ... (kind of tech-cannibalism )

silly me , none has ever been complete ...

so what is the point of taking incomplete parts on one to put on an other incomplete one ???


as for service for the Victims (sorry customers ...)

May i remind the few of us that in the first place most of the faithful came to EA500 BECAUSE it WAS a CHEAP jet ...

with the crisis , the lack of quality and and this "nearly CHEAP status" ...

how many will have the strength (think : how many would accept to be looked at "Flying the biggest joke of aviation" in a country where Image is SO important ...) and means (yes , money ! never forget that they came first into the nightmare BECAUSE IT WAS CHEAP to buy , to fly , to maintain ...)

so i believe today , we have a new set of Victims .... (workers)

tomorrow we will have lots of "interesting and interested peoples" claiming "we all knew it !" , i can almost hear the frenzy speech of negation of a few ones looking to deflect the blame ...

the day after ?

END of STORY , final dot !

julius said...

Fred,

bonjour!

I "had" to leave "my" employers when I felt I could not earn more money and the companies did not give any
perspektives for me. At least two of "my" excompanies got lost.

If you need 12 weeks wonders - why not to go to China or Russia?
And in ABQ, you just leave the city limits and there are lots of
companies looking for lots of ex aviation workers...

I agree to Baron95 with the individual resposibility. That means: Do not go to ABQ unless there is a chance for you that you can find a job next door (1 hour by car)??? "Do the best and cover your a..." (some words I learnt in project management seminar from a Canadian instructor when I was with US company).

How much money did the Wedge (that's the piece you use to get out of the bunkers?) and RP burn by keeping their employees "in the dark" about their future?

I think RP hasn't the visions of a Neutron Jack - he is an unternehmer (pun included)!

Ken must hurry to get his 200h with his FPJ!

Julius

julius said...

Shane,


I pissed off the investors
and
the industry has lost its spirit of entrepreneurship and willingness to take risks (both AIN Nov13 08)

was the Wedge completely blasted?

He was number 18 with Microsoft - did he become 18 years old?

Hopeless - who is that?

Julius

BD5 Believer said...

Does all this mean that Ken and Vern will not be able to get the Garmin 696 upgrade?

FreedomsJamtarts said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FreedomsJamtarts said...

Using a disruptive value proposition, which I developed while ant farming, I have fed the Wedge's speech through an LRU, which managed to recreate the original transcript:

Raburn: Aviation Industry ‘Eats the ignorant'

Eclipse Aviation flounder and failed former CEO Vern Raburn stole, amongst other things, the show at a VLJ forum held Tuesday and yesterday in West Palm Beach, Fla., with his day-one closing comments, in which he lied, distorted the truth and failed to accept responsibility for his actions concerning the aviation industry and Eclipse
Aviation.

“This is an industry that eats the ignorant,” he said. “It’s periodically fraught with the plague of half-arsed wannabe's with half-baked idea, but no clue of how basic physical and financial restraints shape the industry."

"Those, like me, who have no clue what they are doing, and no interest in applying the principle of "learning" to address the limitations of "ignorance" do not understand comments like, ‘We could do it, but it's a bad idea for the following well founded reasons..., which the market won't pay for. It hasn’t been done for a good reason, it shouldn’t be done because people died last time the industry tried this.’”

He said it’s “phenomenally sad” that the industry has lost the spirit of wasteful excess which characterised it while blowing tax money in the fifties, and lost the willingness to take risks with the lives and livelyhoods of others.

He also accused the FAA of being “unfortunately only 3 percent political” and blamed the 97% of hard working, dedicated FAA professionals for the Eclipse congressional hearings. “We are in for a tough haul with the FAA, it is getting hard to find a golf partner ” he said. “We’re going into a dark cell. ”

Raburn also admitted that he did not leave Eclipse voluntarily. “I got fired. The reason I got fired was simple:

I pissed off the investors
I pissed off the customers
I pissed off the suppliers
I pissed off the media
I pissed off the workers
I pissed off the FAA
I pissed off the EASA
I pissed off the industry
I had a crap plan
I executed that plan poorly”


he said, adding that "Eclipse wants nothing more to do with me. Zero association, I can't even get an appointment for the AD's on the plane they used to get me as far away from them, as fast as possible.”.

“That is partially their choice, partially the choice of the judge which issued the restraining order,”
he said. “I’m not good at much. ”

Raburn also took a shot at anonymous bloggers, calling them “I thought they were idiots and cowards, and yet their still smarter and braver than me” a reference to comments made by Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin about anonymous sources.

“They do it through thinking” he said. “They’re engineers, mechanics, pilots, accountants, lawyers and other professionals trying to protect the industry they love and respect from a worthless cad bringing disrepute by fleecing those who don't do their due diligence. I am so ashamed I'll stop here and crawl under a rock like the worthless cockroach I am."

Dave said...

This helps explain Eclipse's order book:
Mr. Serdar GĂ–KSAL, Board Member of MyJet Turkey, adds: "This is the first time we are attending MEBA 2008 and we are delighted to participate together with Palm Aviation. We have a strong commitment to the Eclipse 500 and to prove this we have placed an order for 120 aircraft; we believe that the Eclipse 500 will revolutionize air transportation and together with Palm Aviation we would like to introduce this revolution to MEBA visitors."
Palm Aviation and MyJet bring the world's smallest, lightest jet to Dubai Eclipse 500 makes its debut at MEBA 2008
Anyone think even if Eclipse limps along that these guys could pay for 120 jets even if they wanted to?
Palm Aviation Website
MyJet Website
MyJet is actually affilated with ETIRC as their Turkish arm:
ETIRC Aviation Contacts
Also with MyJet you'll notice it is an ATASAY company (you'll recognize that name from the big ETIRC order) and with Palm Aviation you'll see that they only have a small fleet and this 120 jet order or pure hookum.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Did Dr WIlliam Christmas also win the Collier for the Christmas bullet

metal guy said...

”You know, I'm starting to think you guys will still be patting each other on the back 10 years from now when there are 10,000 Eclipse 500's flying. I can hear it now: "Hey, freddy, that company will never sell another one of those planes. 10,000 already? I don't believe it. That's as phony as when they faked the lunar landings back in 1969!"
Every step of the way, there have been naysayers to say it wouldn't happen even though it IS happening, right before your very eyes. But you choose not to see it.
Whatever.
Ken “

November 17, 2007 ( Almost exactly one year ago )
So much for his ability to read the tea leaves. Ken, where the heck are you old buddy?

julius said...

Freedom,


thanks for the original transcript!

Nice, nice!

Julius

Turboprop_pilot said...

freedom jam tarts

I want to order one of your ant farmer's LRUs- it would have been real handy during the Presidential campaign, especially for Sarah Palin, but I could use it well during the upcoming hearings on the GM bailout.

Witty post.

Turboprop_pilot

fred said...

freedom ...

your post deserve a cheer from the crowd !! ;-))

if you happen to be in "old world" someday , drop a line , drinks and meal will be on me ...!!!

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Thanks guys,

Fred, I am in the "old world" most days :)

Dave said...

Does anyone know who purchase Eclipse Industrial Revenue Bonds and what they're rated now?:
The city of Albuquerque issued $45 million in industrial revenue bonds 2004, but the city's Economic Development Department said Eclipse, not the city, is responsible for repaying those who purchased the bonds.
KRQE:Taxpayers invested
millions in Eclipse


Then here's a headline with the understatement of the year:
Gainesville Sun:Eclipse Aviation may be in financial trouble

Then there's this from the ABQ Journal:
The company didn't issue a statement or respond to Journal requests for information. But employees said they were told that interim "bridge" financing was in the works to keep the company going, which was confirmed by the Federal Aviation Administration.
"They have indicated to us they have a short-term solution to the problem," said FAA spokesman Roland Herwig, who referred questions about the solution to Eclipse.
In the meantime, he said, "We increase our oversight of any certificated company that declares financial problems..."
As of Thursday, it was unclear whether Eclipse employees were eligible for unemployment benefits, said state Department of Workforce Solutions spokeswoman Carrie Moritomo. "I don't know what their employment status is," she said. "We have not been in contact with Eclipse."
The employees haven't been clearly laid off, as was the case in August when close to 800 Eclipse workers lost their jobs in Albuquerque. But since applications for unemployment benefits are considered on a case-by-case basis, Moritomo said Eclipse employees could apply and see what happens.
As for not getting paid, employees can file a claim for back wages due but not received, she said. Employees interested in doing so can call the department's Wage and Hour Bureau at 841-4400...
The company is seeking from $200 million to $300 million in additional investment to continue operations. When asked if New Mexico might be able to provide some form of financial assistance to Eclipse in its time of need, Wollmann said, "The size of the (investment) rounds they've talked about are beyond the scope of our program."
Eclipse is also two months behind on rent payments to the city's aviation department for its use of four buildings totaling 175,000 square feet at the Sunport, said department planning manager Jim Hinde.
However, the company is current on its payments for its $45 million in industrial revenue bonds issued through the city, said Deirdre Firth, a manager in the city's economic development department.
IRBs cannot be used to meet payroll, she said. Money from IRBs can only be used for equipment and facilities. Firth also said, "We want to assure the people of Albuquerque that there are no city tax dollars at risk in this project."

ABQ Journal:Eclipse can't pay employees for past 2 weeks' work (to read the article select trial premium pass, watch the ad and then click on enter journal)

fred said...

freedom


OUUUCCHH !!!

i guess i should have kept it shut ... now it's going to cost me !!!

stop kidding !

where about ?

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FreedomsJamtarts said...

I consider us to be the Media he pissed off.

The convention fourth estate has been, with few exceptions (ie Karen), notably AWOL or sycophantic.

Fred, I'll be in touch.

WhyTech said...

"Does all this mean that Ken and Vern will not be able to get the Garmin 696 upgrade?"

Actually, this is the only upgrade they are likely to get as it doesnt require integration with exiting systems. It a great piece - probably the most in navigation capability EA50 owners are likely to get.

x said...

Serial Number 246 flies to Europe Today!

Adam Hunt said...

I wanted to thank everyone who has been posting links to media stories about Eclipse here.

I have been using those links and others I have found to add greatly to the Wikipedia article on Eclipse in an attempt to catalog the company's story as it has happened over the past few months.

Blog entries themselves aren't generally usable for references, but the links you post here in the blog have been great!

So please do continue to post those links here or directly add text and refs to the Wikipedia article yourselves. Just please make sure information added is clearly referenced as we are trying to be factual in that encyclopedia article.

Dave said...

This is even more amateur hour than I thought. It looks like MyJet (basically ETIRC) just copied and pasted from the DayJet website. Read the internet and the MyJet India website:
MyJet India Website
MyJet India CEO Interview
This must have been part of Roel's recent funding attempts since this came out only a few weeks ago:
Hindustan Times:MyJet plans `per seat, on demand' air charter service
I also found this interesting website from 2003:
MyJet USA

Dave said...

I have been using those links and others I have found to add greatly to the Wikipedia article on Eclipse in an attempt to catalog the company's story as it has happened over the past few months.

I just looked at the Wikipedia entry earlier today and it certain is thorough and up-to-date!

Adam Hunt said...

dave: Thanks your positive comment on the Wikipedia article, usually we have dozens of people from WikiProject Aircraft working on these sorts of articles, but sadly it has been mostly just me chipping away at that article for the last few months alone, which is why I invited the knowledgeable folks here to feel free to add to it!

Being an encyclopedia article we are aiming for it to be complete, accurate, balanced and well-referenced!

Orville said...

Holy Crap - Adam Hunt - you are one incredible Wiki-dude!

Check the history of this guy's contributions - and all the Wiki articles he's worked on.

Excellent work!

gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Adam Hunt said...

Well I was more looking for additional links to articles to be posted here and maybe some help with the Wikipedia article than credit, but, um, thanks for noticing.

I just think that the story of Eclipse is worth putting down in one place so that future MBA courses can read it!

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Adam, it will be a great resource for the DA.

Dave said...

Well I was more looking for additional links to articles to be posted here and maybe some help with the Wikipedia article than credit, but, um, thanks for noticing.

I don't directly use Wikipedia due to JVM, but if there's anything you're looking for, I can see what I can dig up. I've downloaded many of the legal filings if you're interested, but I don't know if you can't just refer to the document via a standard reference or if you need to link to a website that hosts it (I think I've seen others use PACER as their link, but you have to have an account and pay to download). I've also tried to save PDFs put out by DayJet and Eclipse that might not be available any longer on the local systems.

fred said...

adam hunt :

may i respectfully point out some mistake in Wiki ?

(i take your silence as a yes ! ;-) )

the Bank that was supposed to invest for building a plant (Vnesheconombank) has a chairman ... (like any firm) who is :
Mr
Dmitriev Vladimir Alexandrovich
(very nice guy by the way ...)

and NOT Mr Vladimir vladimirovich Putin ...

even if it is a state bank , the prime-minister is not the Chairman , it would like saying that the elected president is chairing the meeting of an FBI office in the middle of Arkansas !

once again I would like to emphasize that the meeting of board where Etirc got a formal yes (with a my-be linked to it) was absolutely NOT about Etirc in Ulyanovsk , but a wide and general set of many different projects to develop the area ...!

AvidPilot said...

I heard that a buyer just purchased a new E500 for $1,250,000, thinking he was getting a "good deal" now that Eclipse is having some serious problems.

Why would anyone buy an airplane manufactured by a company which, for all intents and purposes, is out of business? Little hope of training, obtaining insurance or getting support when something breaks?

Just to "save" a couple hundred thousand dollars.

I would think that the value of an E500, at this point, would be scrap metal.

Dave said...

I heard that a buyer just purchased a new E500 for $1,250,000, thinking he was getting a "good deal" now that Eclipse is having some serious problems.
Why would anyone buy an airplane manufactured by a company which, for all intents and purposes, is out of business? Little hope of training, obtaining insurance or getting support when something breaks?


Either lack of due diligence or poor judgment in knowing in who to listen to and who not to.

Adam Hunt said...

fred: Thanks for the info on that. The AvWeb article cited states "The Russian State Bank, chaired by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin" whereas the Eclipse press release says: "Russian State Bank Vnesheconombank (VEB) Supervisory Board, chaired by Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin". In this case the Eclipse article is probably more accurate - so I corrected the Wikipedia article.

Rather than clog up the great operational discussions about Eclipse here, the best place to discuss the Wikipedia article is probably its talk page. It works much like a blog. Please feel free to leave critiques and suggestions there or just edit the article itself directly. That is the real strength of Wikipedia is that anyone can edit it. What makes it better than pure nonsense is the fact that everything is supposed to be properly sourced.

That is another use for the article actually - even if you have no time for Wikipedia it is a great place to find the links to the references, which are the original sources - sort of an index to the web, but organized by subject.

Dave said...

Oh, I missed this quote from the ABQ Journal article I linked to:
The most frustrating aspect of the company's financial meltdown was that certification of the Eclipse 500 very light jet by the European Aviation and Safety Agency was just a week away, he said. "We're down to our last few documents to open Europe up," he said.
ABQ Journal:Eclipse can't pay employees for past 2 weeks' work
So Eclipse claims they only had a week to go and they'd get EASA. This actually wouldn't surprise me if it was true given how I think this was Roel's plan to bleed everyone in the US and then take it to Russia for the benefit of ETIRC. I don't think Roel cares a bit about Eclipse surviving any longer than the time it takes to get EASA.

fred said...

dave :

it could be roel's plan ...

but it make no sens ! if EAC gets the EASA Cert. (which i doubt : i would happen by magic ? where are the CS to be lifted ?)

then EAC fall from its tree (NM state funds) ...

Etirc cannot (as far as i believe) use it like its own property ...

this is a major change (as referenced by EASA) so need more paperworks (think $$+$$$)

but that would be ONLY the easiest part of the joke : the plant would remain to be certified = which plant ?

even if Ulyanovsk is built , i am sure the Russkiis are not going to be happy about being scaled by foreigners (they hate this kind of thing)

the FAA Cert. is a joke ! and the RU Cert is worthless in the west ...

it doesn't make any sens !!!

fred said...

Monsieur shane

thanks for taking appropriate measure for my loss of temper ...

that Wedge is pissing me off !!

i owe a pint a black stuff ... ;-))

Dave said...

Mayor Chavez says Eclipse is days away from financing:
ayor says Eclipse is close to payroll financing
Chavez says that is what Peg told him, but Peg wont say it officially.

Dave said...

More lawsuits filed. We already knew about the Australia distributor, but there was two more filed on Thursday:
The latest plaintiffs -- an Australian company, a man from Venezuela and a Mississippi physician -- are seeking refunds ranging from $100,000 to $159,000.
KOAT:More Lawsuits Filed Seeking Refunds From Eclipse
The names of the new lawsuits are:
FL 410 LLC v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
Guerere v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
I haven't downloaded these to get the details.

Curt_MSN said...

After sleeping on this whole matter last night I was able to frame it in "normal" business terms today.

Assuming for the moment that the interim financing is NOT about to magically appear (and I TRULY believe its not happening as anybody about to pony up $200 - $300 million to invest is going to want to make damn sure its in place before you start telling the STAFF YOU WILL RELY ON that they are not getting paid for the last two weeks. As an investor that is the LAST message I want going out.) Whats in it for owner #2 given the current state of affairs?....absolutely nothing. If I buy Eclipse as an operating entity in its current form I get:

(1) Ticked off owners.
(2) Ticked off position holders.
(3) Ticked off ex-position holders await a refund.
(4) Ticked off investors.
(5) Ticked off employees.

No thanks. IF and I truly mean IF the product is sound in nature and ultimately a great product and I am sitting with capital to invest (assuming there is such a thing anymore) at Cessna, Beech, Bombardier even Cirrus, I'll simply want to buy up the assets once the company goes under - I will assume none of the cuurent problems and proceed with "The New Eclipse". I can jump in and begin servicing and upgrading (ok, "completing") the existing fleet as well as start producing the jet again under its new branding. Hopefully I can offer a few incentives to those who lost their deposits with the old guys to come and buy a plane from the new guys - but I am starting with a clean slate.

If nobody currently in the industry jumps in to buy it up once it fails then either (1) there is a product problem or (2) the capital problem is larger than I thought.

On an unrelated note given some large investors like Gates, etc WHERE are those guys with some bridge financing, etc so that they can make payroll if this other financing is "about" to come through......I don't think its anywhere close to being there.

Dave said...

Can someone tell me why S/N 266 is experimental and why the registration says it expired?:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=143EA

Zed said...

curt_msn ... you forgot

6) Ticked off Vendors/Suppliers

Even with people back on board you can't build or service airplanes without parts, consumables, etc.

And ... since at least a portion of their tooling, tools, and services were power-by-the-hour, Eclipse might not even have the facility to keep going with the parts on hand.

They will need to make everyone whole, wait 30 days, and then open up Eclipse 3.0* Alpha (not to be confused with Fred).

* EAC 1.x failed at the point RP took over at AirVenture

* EAC 2.x has already been given Last Rites ...

Zed said...

Dave -

266 is the first production AvioNG 1.5 configured aircraft (Garmin400s, etc.).

I was Experimental for flight (cert) testing, to display at AirVenture, etc.

They likley allowed the temporary Experimental Cert expire in anticipation of expeditious 1.5 certification.

Curt_MSN said...

Zed:

WOW - great point - I totally left out the ticked off suppliers.

...and to your point given their reliance on their partners in the production process this GREATLY complicates matters for a potential new owner.

airsafetyman said...

I think we all should have a quantum of solace for Eclipse. One of the last airplanes has escaped to Euroland where it will die another day. Too bad for Vern, for him the world is not enough. He should have learned to live and let die. Roel thinks help is coming from Russia with love, but it's only "Dr. No".

(sorry)

mountainhigh said...

I've had contact from a friend in NM who has spoken to some in the city and state economic development area (in NM). Internally, some of the gov. folks are tossing around ideas such as providing more funds to EAC. The city/state doesn't want to lose all the jobs. It appears as if some in the gov. might be entertaining thoughts of trying to provide some type of bridge monies. They have a vested interest perpetuating the story put out by Peg and EAC.

I certainly hope a reporter will monitor this situation on behalf of the taxpayers of NM.

I do believe the gov. folks are definitely in CYA mode ... trying to deny they had any idea there were "issues" with EAC. Of course, there is data indicating they knew what was going on with EAC. This will come out if/when the lawsuits start (in a search for deeper pockets).

Someone stated earlier that United walked away from the training contract for "unknown" reasons. A source from United says that EAC didn't abide by the contract in several areas, therefore, UA walked. (By the way this was put on the blog at the time.)

I expect more to be revealed in many areas if/when EAC files BK. I expect the NDAs will no longer be valid?? (Not sure, not a lawyer.)

I join others in hoping for the best for the employees and their families.

JRS said...

This could be a big blow to the company I work for in branford CT... Harco Laboratories. We build the air data systems for Eclipse, and Eclipse is the primary customer of my department...

Plastic_Planes said...

Well, Capt. Zoom says they did it again. Appears to be at least partially confirmed in the local media.

Geez, I wish I could pull money out of my, uhhh hat, too!

Curt_MSN said...

KQRE is running that story on their website now....Eclipse acquires short term financing to pay employees.

Total Eclipse said...

"X" - why would Serial Number 246 be flying so far north (Iqualuit) if they were going to Western Europe? Shouldn't they be going via southern Greenland, then Iceland, etc. - unless they were flying to Russia/Siberia.... hmmmm

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

I guess the workers will be back to work on Monday... At least their holidays aren't completely screwed yet. Got my plane out of Gainesville today...

David Wihl said...

ASM said: I think we all should have a quantum of solace for Eclipse. One of the last airplanes has escaped to Euroland where it will die another day. Too bad for Vern, for him the world is not enough. He should have learned to live and let die. Roel thinks help is coming from Russia with love, but it's only "Dr. No".

For your eyes only: The Man with the Golden Pun.

gadfly said...

mountainhigh

Get on your horse and contact the Albuquerque Journal editorial staff . . . and make your thoughts known. For reasons I cannot discuss, I am unable to speak on your behalf, but you and others can put pressure on the media, and get your voice heard.

'Just do it, and the taxpayers of Albuquerque and New Mexico will thank you. In fact, it's the kind of information that is needed, to help the editors do their job.

gadfly

(There is no way that ABQ and NM can afford to bail out the little bird.)

gadfly said...

DW

'Sorry to rain on your parade, but instead of the "Man with the Golden Gun" (1974), a better analogy is "The Man with the Golden Arm" (1955). . . Frank ('old blue eyes, and Eclipse) can't seem to get enough of the magic stuff pumped into his arm . . . only with the little bird, it's called "cash" . . . and in the end, it all amounts to the same thing.

gadfly

('Can't remember how the movie turned out . . . it wasn't among the movies we took aboard on patrol.)

Shane Price said...

NEWSFLASH

I've updated the headline on the thread, for the benefit of those who only check their RSS feeds.

A 'usually reliable' source sent me this in the past hour:-

From: Scott Dannenberg
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 12:21PM
To: _All Enterprise
Subject: Payroll status update


Fellow Eclipsers,

We are extremely happy to report that funding has been obtained that will allow all past due payroll to be in your bank account no later than Tuesday, November 18, 2008. Money may be deposited in your account on Monday. Please continue to check your bank accounts.

For those that get physical checks, please call the payroll department on Monday to arrange to get your check.

We look forward to all of us returning to work on Monday, November 17.

Employee benefits including health and dental remain intact and available.

Management continues to work diligently on a longer term financial solution for our business.

We sincerely apologize for the distress this has caused you. Thank you for your continued support and loyalty.

Executive Management Team


Hopefully this is genuine and the start of more positive news from ABQ.

Stay tuned. I expect events to move rapidly over the next few days....

Shane

stan said...

Interesting comments against the story at www.kob.com

From "inside man" (assume inside
EAC):

People on these comments are way too prone to outrage. Some of you must have nothing better to do. Eclipse has pumped 100's of millions into the local economy through payroll. How much do they have to provide before people think it is worth the investments that the city made? You would think some of the people commenting on this story paid for all of the city's investment themselves. If upper managment didn't think they could secure long term funding Eclipse would have closed already. Short term financing has already been secured and long term financing is expected. People have been forcasting the doom of Eclipse ever since it was founded and it's still here. Is it really so hard to show some support instead of dumping on everybody?

and

Oh and as for everyone who keeps claiming Eclipse is moving to Russia, it would be a minimum of several years before the Russian plant could build it's first plane. Customers who have already been waiting for years would open the refund floodgates if Eclipse announced that it would be 2, 3, maybe 4 more years befoer they started delivering more planes. No way. The long term success of this company depends on it's local success. No doubt about it. And that says nothing about the fact that some of the technologies used in the manufacture cannot be exported to Russia right now. The Russians have to find other manufacturing processes for some of it or convince congress to change some laws. No matter what you are looking at a very long term process.

But I tend to agree with 727driver who said:

Eclipse is on life support. If the economy doesn't pull the plug, the FAA certification fraud) or prospective customers who are litigating for deposit refunds will. The current Eclipse situation should not surprise anyone. It's been coming for a long time. Remember the bad engine (williams), faulty landing gear, defective instrument pod, cracked windshield, stuck throttle controls, fired CEO (vern rayburn), 3 crash landings, failed largest customer and no money for payroll.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

EclipsePilotOMSIV, what was your plane is for?

gadfly said...

'Just one more "fix", and I'll go straight . . . I promise. Oh man, I've got the shakes . . . bad. But I'll be good, you'll see!

gadfly

(My friend, Vladimir . . . he'll be here soon . . . just a few more months . . . oh man, it hurts so bad!)

airtaximan said...

2 things...

"I heard that a buyer just purchased a new E500 for $1,250,000"

-and-

"Come back and get your paychecks...."

...nice one!

- kidding, of course, they probably did NOT buy it from EAC.

*** I personally think this is abig deal if they found someone to front the cash for payroll. If the employees are back to work and can be paid for even a few more weeks (My guess is this is around $1.2million a week) someone is convinced there is money coming from a "greater fool".

Given Vern's little "post mortum" speech at industry conferences this past week... I doubt this is more than a hail mary... perhaps even Pieper putting up some cash becasue someone explained the predicament this could put him in.

In any case, don't count them out, just yet - let's see if the employees are back to work for real.

In the end, there is no large market for this plane... so its just more incineration.

Dave said...

This just came out, but it really doesn't make sense:
If Eclipse slides into bankruptcy, however, that restart money may prove more elusive than ever, said Stuart Klaskin, an analyst with KKC Aviation Consulting in Coral Gables. He said DayJet will almost certainly pursue litigation against Eclipse.

Earlier this week, Iacobucci declined to comment on the possibility of legal action.

DayJet could get maintenance on its planes if Eclipse goes bankrupt, but its hopes of collecting from legal action would be remote. Add this to the scarcity of investment capital and DayJet is now in a tougher spot, Klaskin said.

SFBF:Eclipse troubles bode ill for DayJet’s already shaky future
Eclipse doesn't have any aircraft to get maintained, so I don't know how DayJet could sue Eclipse post-BK. If DayJet had a claim, it would have to be brought up now as all litigation would be stayed due to BK.

Also is Peg now the "local CEO" of Eclipse? Chavez says also says hundreds of millions of dollars is forthcoming:
Mayor Martin Chavez said that he understands Eclipse's situation and is trying to be supportive. He called the issues with the Albuquerque based company a story that's unfolding all across the country.

Chavez said that he spoke with the local Chief Executive Officer of Eclipse who told him she was confident that they'd fix the problem.

She used the terms days not weeks, according to the mayor.

Chavez said that the company needed to fix the payroll issues in addition to keeping the company afloat.

The mayor also made it clear that Eclipse is considered a tenant of the city of Albuquerque since they rent space at the Albuquerque International Sunport.

The company still owes the city about $200,000 in back rent for those facilities.

"They're looking at much more than paying the employees. They're looking at the survival of the company," Chavez said. "This round of financing, which they believe to be-if I recall correctly-$200 million to $300 million, which they think is forthcoming."

KRQE:Eclipse acquires short
term financing

Dave said...

How much do they have to provide before people think it is worth the investments that the city made?

Well for starters don't leave behind nationwide carnage of unpaid bills in millions/tens of millions/hundreds of millions.

You would think some of the people commenting on this story paid for all of the city's investment themselves.

HOW DARE TAXPAYERS WANT ACCOUNTABILITY!

Is it really so hard to show some support instead of dumping on everybody?

Good question. Eclipse shouldn't dump on their customers and should show them support by refunding them and retrofiting...or does Eclipse only want one-way support and to just TAKE TAKE TAKE from everyone.

Oh and as for everyone who keeps claiming Eclipse is moving to Russia, it would be a minimum of several years before the Russian plant could build it's first plane. Customers who have already been waiting for years would open the refund floodgates if Eclipse announced that it would be 2, 3, maybe 4 more years befoer they started delivering more planes. No way.

Whatever credibility "inside man" had is blown there. That itself wouldn't be a refund event.

And that says nothing about the fact that some of the technologies used in the manufacture cannot be exported to Russia right now. The Russians have to find other manufacturing processes for some of it or convince congress to change some laws. No matter what you are looking at a very long term process.

"Inside man's" credibility has already been tested, but this would seem to say that Russia is a no-go. Why did Putin fund something for $200 million that couldn't be built if this is true?

FaithFul said...

Scott Dannenburg is an IT team member.... where is Mark Borseth?

gadfly said...

Anything you hear from the local sources . . . please understand that a “reliable source” may be the night watchman that patrols the border fence at ABQ, down near I-25. The local politicians will take any scrap and run with it . . . anything to . . . well, cover the southern tail feathers of a north-flying-duck (as it were) . . . or in this case, a north-flying-VLJ.

The fantastic part of the story is that the “locals” will actually believe this stuff . . . put it in print, and therefore becomes “fact”. This sort of thing is so messy . . . and embarrasses the mayor and the governor and all those other folks in city and state government that wanted so bad to look good and wise, when they first ignored all good judgement, and the obvious . . . when the little bird first came to the city by the Rio Grande.

gadfly

(At the moment, we are beginning that awkward phase called, “A reality check!” . . . an expensive thing . . . “an ill wind that blows no good”.)

airtaximan said...

perhaps the guys letter went out to only 10 people in the IT department?

OK, Bad joke.

Dave said...

perhaps the guys letter went out to only 10 people in the IT department?

I though Eclipse said that they outsourced their IT department to CSC:
CSC SIGNS $106 MILLION IT OUTSOURCING AGREEMENT WITH ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION
Did CSC decide to bail on Eclipse knowing that they'd never see that money?

Zed said...

ATM -

Even worse!

Since IT is outsourced to CSC, there are now 91,000 people worldwide who are cleaning their seats after re-reading the email.

gadfly said...

Forgive the old gadfly for a moment . . . speaking of a “reality check”:

A call came in from an old guy . . . a Norwegian in Connecticut . . . that’s funny, he should have retired this year . . . he’s my junior by a few years . . . the bottom line is that he “scrapes in” the “ways” on mills, lathes, grinders, etc., and rebuilds the machines that are still the “staple” of thousands of machine shops across our nation. (I won’t take the time to explain the details.) Scraping in “ways” is truly an art-form . . . a thing of beauty to behold . . . a can of “Prussian Blue”, a scraper of high-carbon steel, a machine from “aged cast-iron”, . . . the machines that manufactured countless aircraft, automobiles, locomotives, watches, . . . you name it, machines of magnificent beauty . . . the things that brought all of us our present way of life.

The call was a reminder that machining, designing aircraft or integrated circuits, programming computer software, manufacturing . . . etc., is still an “art”, as much and possibly more than a science. And this is maybe the single biggest problem with the “little jet”, and why it will never succeed.

The “old” Norwegian in Connecticut (I called him a “kid”) knows the subtle nuances of “scraping in” the ways, that determine the accuracy of a milling machine, etc., . . . yet I, his “senior”, encouraged him to move into the computer age. I am also reminded that those who attempt to design and manufacture successful aircraft . . . especially, “Very Light Jets”, must hold onto the “art” of countless generations of machining, manufacturing, and design that came at high price . . . using the best of both worlds . . . something that must always be respected, to best move on to new horizons.

Frankly, it is the arrogance of un-named individuals (at the moment) that treated all this with a high level of pride and contempt . . . not to mention a total loss of care, for the workers and their families . . . used (miss-used, if you will) as cheap tools to achieve egotistical levels of fame, and wealth, that doomed the “Eclipse”, before it began.

Folks are attempting to pick up the pieces . . . stitch them together as Dr. Frankenstein’s monster . . . ‘hoping for a bolt of lightning to bring the monster to life . . . Sorry folks, it ain’t goin’ to happen.

gadfly

Dave said...

I found this interesting blog today regarding the goings-on at Eclipse:
Jim Baca's Blog
Guess what. This guys claims credit for having brought Eclipse to New Mexico:
Jim brought Eclipse Aviation to New Mexico
Bobbi Baca Writes About her Husband Jim
It turns out this is true:
Eclipse close to clear landing at Double Eagle airport

bill e. goat said...

:)
!!

gadfly said...

Dave

Please don't do that again . . . I clicked on the first of your "links" while I was enjoying a piece of my wife's pumpkin bread, with some coffee . . .

gadfly

(In a moment, I'll be able to take a breath without choking! . . . and drive home from work. This is Friday . . . right?)

Deep Blue said...

I really don't know how anyone can take this company seriously.

The supposed communication to employees to return to work is a joke.

At this point, what is so embarrasing is to see that the Blog has more expertise, more integrity, more care and more maturity than anyone apparently assoociated with EAC, the BOD included.

You really have to slap yourself to realize what utter idiocy this whole EAC project has been.

I'm not sure the Blog writers aren't due the Collier Trophy.

Seriously.

Regards.

Dave said...

Please don't do that again . . . I clicked on the first of your "links" while I was enjoying a piece of my wife's pumpkin bread, with some coffee . . .

Yes, Baca runs a campaign on accountability and then doesn't want to be held accountable. He doesn't even acknowledge that he is one of the ones who got state and local taxpayer money involved...real accountable.

baron95 said...

And yet Another Disruptive Jet Maker announces one more delay - another full year delay - on their new jet. About on par with Eclipse now.

baron95 said...

Curt_MSN said...I'll simply want to buy up the assets once the company goes under

It is a false choice. It is not an either or situation. The best solution, most likely, is to buy it in a pre-backaged CH11. Get the creditors (Owners, Vendors, City, Position Holders), discharge 90% of what you own them, pay/perform the remaining 10% to get them happy, wipe out the investors, come in with DIP to make the courts happy, walk away with the company, minus the liabilities in weeks.

baron95 said...

One more thing....

That is THE TOP reason, the E500 owners and position holders should form a an association and file negotiate as a group.

Once potential investors see that they can negotiate with a group rather than 1000 different entities for a pre-packaged, they'll be more interested in taking a look.

Deep Blue said...

B95: I realize this is somewhat off topic but your link to Boeing is central to understanding the larger aerospace industry that the GA OEMs are a part of.

IMO, the most telling statement in the press today concerning the Boeing 747-800 delay causalities, is the following:

"limited engineering resources within the company "

Boeing has beeen getting very poor, very naive and very destructive advice from its BOD and from "consultants" about how to run an aircraft manufacturing company (outsourcing, variabalizing costs, partnering etc).

McNerney is about as concerned and about as bright, as Wagner at GM. He's just another dopie ex-McKinsey consultant that couldn't find a pair of you-know-whats in a strip club.

Boeing is a lost company. Put him and Wagner in the Zoo.

Time for a new US aerospace industrial policy: home manufacturing, vertical integration, expertise, investment, employment.

Dave Ivedorne said...

And yet Another Disruptive Jet Maker announces one more delay - another full year delay - on their new jet. About on par with Eclipse now.

:-)

Baron, the Greater Seattle Incomplete Airliner Works has a history of delivering complete, rugged, durable, and fully functional vehicles - many of which can even be flown in icy weather. Putting them "about on par" with Eclipse, is an insult to "par".

I found the analogy amusing, as Boeing certainly does seem to be tripping over their loose appendages at every opportunity lately.

eXamine Your Zipper,
DI

baron95 said...

Deep BLue said... the most telling statement in the press today concerning the Boeing 747-800 delay causalities, is the following:

"limited engineering resources within the company "


No it is not. IMHO, the most telling reason is: "Boeing Co. said Friday it is delaying deliveries of its 747-8 freighter and intercontinental airplanes due to design changes..."

It is a FREAKING STRETCH of a 40 year old design that has had how many derivatives? 741, 742, 743, 744, 744ER, 747S), 744ERF, 747BCF, 747LFC. All about on time, with 1/1,000,000,000 if the computing power to design. And they can't get their S%#$ together on this one? It is a 5.6m stretch!!!! (yes, I know the wing leading/trailing is being re-profiled and that there are new engines). But it is a freaking STRETCH of a proven design.

Why can't they get it out in time.

Deep Blue said... B95: I realize this is somewhat off topic but your link to Boeing ...

It is not off-topic. MOST if not ALL people here think that ONLY Eclipse screws up design and delivery of new jets. They forget the utter disasters of things like the Beech Startship or the 15 year/$15B subsidized gestation of the A380, or the total economic/market stupidity of the Concorde, etc, etc, etc.

The point is, the exception would have been if Eclipse had managed to start a company and certify their first jet without creating a disaster.

As it turns out, having certified a twin-jet off the bat and produced 250 in 10 year is a MONUMENTAL ACCOMPLISHMENT for a start up. Regardless of what happens next.

just zis guy, ya know? said...
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just zis guy, ya know? said...
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gadfly said...

jus zis

Off topic . . . but a good question: How many granite plates does it take to "lap" a perfect surface? The answer is "three" . . . lapping first, #1 against #2, then #1 and #3, then #2 and #3, etc. Think about it. You will end up with three "near perfect" flat surfaces.

And, of course, use a "figure eight" pattern. (Once made a perfectly flat air-bearing surface, to eliminate all friction forces, to calibrate inertia harness reels at under "one G" . . . fun!)


'Just be glad you don't have to do it, but someone back "somewhere" had to do it the first time.

gadfly

(Fun stuff to exercise the grey cells! And, yeh . . . I prefer the English spelling of "grey".)

gadfly said...

jus zis

"Machine tool reconditioning and applications of hand scraping" (Hardcover)
by Edward F Connelly (Author)

$89.99 new . . . who said a machinist's tools are cheap!

gadfly

airtaximan said...
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airtaximan said...
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airtaximan said...

Baron,

There are many exciting new(ish) aircraft designs/prduct on the drawing boards at most major OMEs.

I have seen a bunch and when asked... why don't you go ahead with THAT? The answer is almost always "we do not have the engineering bandwith to do everything".

On issue near and dear to your heart is the lower cost GA jet plane, and how you would love one. Well, there are good reasons the major OEMs are not trying to make this plane... not the least of which is, most of these jet OEMs try hard to make money on planes in the $10M range and above. They are "fairly" successful at this... and do not care to apply resources "trying" to make money on a $1M plane. They lack the knowhow, or even the desire... let alone refuse to apply their precious resources on this type of project. This was even before Vern screwed the pooch and showed the world how small the market really was.

Bottom line, they know how to make $3M gross on a $12M plane, but this does not scale down well... either ;)

Why apply the same (a few hundred million) resources developing a plane where if you are lucky, you'll eek out $200-$300k gross? How many could really be sold per year for 15-20 years?

Resources ARE scarce, and I could imagine Boeing is spread thin, 787...etc...

Last comment... to the larger OEMs the choice looks like:

spend resources designing an $80M SSBJ - probably gross $20 million a pop (already a lot of real deposits on this plane, IIRC)

OR

build a cheapo-jet where you have to learn how to make money at $1M a pop and IF you can, try to recoup your engineering and (probably NEW revolutionary) tooling and manufacturing facilitization investment as well) over X number of planes for Y years - which is a terribly risky number, given the realities.

no-brainer.

Sorry...

Shane Price said...

Snippet Time, again

1. EAC believe they have a deal to fund the company, in a pared down form. Selected staff will be offered contracts with the 'new' entity, not with EAC. There is a due diligence stage to go through, but my source claims it's a done deal. I remain, to put it mildly, unconvinced, but I share it with you to balance the negative tone on the blog. And, its always possible this chap is right, and the rest of us are wrong...

2. A key supplier has confirmed 'bug out' to me. Very simple really. Not getting paid will do that to you, every time.

3. Most staff are looking elsewhere for employment, with several 'secret' hiring events in the locality over the coming days. There is an understandable reluctance to believe EAC will continue to make the payroll. Not getting paid will do that to you, every time.

I must apologize for the delay in responding fully to emails. As you will all understand, it's been pretty busy on 'this side' of the blog over the past few days.

Shane

bill e. goat said...

Shane,

Thank you for pounding the nail on the head.

And saving our fellow bloggers about 2 pages of my bold faced response, that I had prepared in a fairly seething rage.

Regarding our dim-witted ill-mannered dolt of an ex-CEO, I rather prefer Gunner's reference of "tool", but with your explaination of "simpliest tool", wedge seems appropriate.

There are some other apt definitions of wedge:

"Something that intrudes and causes division or disruption"

I'd like to add, "offends" to that list...

Although the most accurate is, paraphrasing:

"*A block of solid material that can be pushed between two objects".

Wedge, you are an amazing walking, talking, _urd (starts with an T).

Too bad P.T. Parnum isn't around to display you in a cage, as you deserve.

Or a D.A.

*Wedge

baron95 said...

ATM - No disagreement there.

That is EXACTLY WHY, new-design entry level jets, just like new-design composite piston singles will come and have come from startup companies.

Cirrus and Diamond ate Cessna's, Piper's and Mooney's lunch. You can say that some of them care MORE about dinner (Citations and Meridians), and you'd be right.

But the guys that killed the archer and the 182 yesterday (Cirrus, Diamond) will try to kill the Mustang next. And if they succeed, they may try to kill the Citation Jet next.

The established OEMs surely can react (e.g. buy Columbia), but over time, if you leave yourself open at the entry level, you WILL pay the price.

Embraer came from the lowly ERJ145 and then killed the B736 and the B717 with the E190. You are correct that Boeing cares more about the 738 and 777/787, and you'll be correct. But if they keep it up, Embraer's next plane MAY be a direct 73G/738 competitor.

Anyway - want a market to be shaken up - then look out for a startup effort.

To me, the Eclipse legacy, whatever happens to them, is the FJ-33, the PWC600, the Mustang, the Phenoms, the PC12NG, the C90GTi, the TBM850G, perhaps the D-Jet and CirrusJet.

These projects might not have happened or at least not as soon if it were not for Vern/Eclipse.

So today, you can buy a $3M Phenom or Mustang thanks, in part, to Eclipse. Tomorrow you may be able to buy a $1.5 D-Jet or CirrusJet, thanks in part to Eclipse.

Remember that, next time you guys call Vern a loser and Eclipse a disaster.

Baron steps down from the soap box and gives Speaker's Corner back to Shane & Co.

bill e. goat said...
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Dave said...

Does this mean the State Department would buy Eclipse aircraft?

bill e. goat said...

I don't disagree with anyone's posts (well, hardly anyone's).

But I've been most agreeing with Baron95's reasoning and with his sentiments for the past few days.

I am glad you are contributing your insightful observations.

I'm sure this has been a stressful time for advocates, and I feel B95 has got a pretty good bead on the situation.
-----------------------------

My empathy and prayers go out the those affected by this, and I'll provide Shane with info on the kind of placements I can help with.

I know there are a lot of fellow bloggers who could offer the same assistance, and I appeal to them to make a similiar offer, which I'm sure they will.

(I'd also like to do some placement activity with the Wedge, but don't want to get my foot dirty).

Shane Price said...

Baron,

Baron steps down from the soap box and gives Speaker's Corner back to Shane & Co.

Your posts are always a delight, as they force us all to consider a different view. I'm sure I'm not alone is thinking this.

BUT....

There's always a 'but' lurking in a healthy debate!

I can't let this pass

Remember that, next time you guys call Vern a loser and Eclipse a disaster.

Vern is a loser. He lost close to $2 Billion, the respect due to the Collier Trophy, half the workforce he hired to boost his ego and, eventually, the company he founded.

EAC is a disaster, in business terms. How many companies, in any field, are sued SEVEN times in an a few months for return of deposits? How many companies, that you are aware of, missed so many deadlines on delivery, volume, price and quality?

I could go on, but I need to sleep....

Shane

Dave said...

1. EAC believe they have a deal to fund the company, in a pared down form. Selected staff will be offered contracts with the 'new' entity, not with EAC. There is a due diligence stage to go through, but my source claims it's a done deal. I remain, to put it mildly, unconvinced, but I share it with you to balance the negative tone on the blog. And, its always possible this chap is right, and the rest of us are wrong...

Actually this sounds like what I've been saying for a long time. By going to another entity, it looks like Eclipse is trying to leave all the debts behind and just take the assets. However, I see a number of problems with doing this (assuming Roel leaves Eclipse as a steaming pile of debts and liabilities). If all the bills get paid and Eclipse or this new entity deliver the contractually agreed upon aircraft then there's no problem, but if Roel is trying to dodge liability and debts, it just doesn't work that way.

Eclipse can still be forced into involuntary BK if Roel and the execs transfer the assets but skip out on the liabilities. If this happens then the deal leaving all sorts of people holding the bag then the deal can be rescended by the BK court.

I'm suspicious of this because I don't see why a new entity would be formed if it isn't an attempt to skip out on creditors. The only way I see this could be done with shafting creditors is the deal was done after BK was filed and had BK court approval. If anyone is shafted by a significant amount of money due to this deal, the deal probably wouldn't be worth the paper it is printed on - unless and until there's BK court approval.

airtaximan said...

BAron, you are great... no question. I agree, except, "these projects might not have happened or at least not as soon if it were not for Vern/Eclipse"...

A lot of money flowed to EAC that could have made others successful -I look at Centuryjet... there are others.

The FJ33 probably got delayed, and PWC probably got distracted... by Vern.

But it looks like I;m seeing your "might not" and raising you a "probably" -

My feeling is he was more of a negative, and you give him credit for pushing things along...

OK. I can see your point.

jet_fumes said...

Baron95 said:

To me, the Eclipse legacy, whatever happens to them, is the FJ-33, the PWC600, the Mustang, the Phenoms, the PC12NG, the C90GTi, the TBM850G, perhaps the D-Jet and CirrusJet.

Nope. The Williams FJ-33 program was initiated well before Eclipse was launched. Its first credible application was the CenturyJet in 1998 (their web site is still on http://www.centuryaero.com ), in other words it is the FJ-33 which made the VLJ market a reality. Not Eclipse.

Both the D-JET and the CirrusJet exist today thanks to the Williams FJ-33 and despite Eclipse. The Mustang was started not as a reaction to Eclipse but as a business opportunity to pull more pilots towards the CJ line, and bring on a supplier base that was more aggressive on pricing (Pratt and Garmin come to mind).

The PC12NG and the TBM850 are natural evolutions, better engines, better avionics. Happens all the time. Eclipse is irrelevant.

baron95 said...

ATM, this is how inovation happens.

Look at Boeing. They raised a ton of investment from Japan, the heavies, the other suppliers. They lock in suplies of composite materials and composit fastners, autoclave mannufacturing capacity, etc. They promised the world. A plane that yould roll out in July/07, be certified in 4 months of flight testing, with dozens pre-assembled and ready to enter commercial service 5 months after first flight.

They failed. But their hyperbole, let to Airbus launching A350 1.0, A350 2.0, A350 4.0 and now the A350XWB program and caused Airbus to seek supply chaing efficiencies and diversifications on a huge scale.

Did the 787 siphon money and engineering talent from other programs and OEMs? You bet. Did it miss ALL first flight, certification, production, EIS dates by 18-24 months and counting? Yes.

In the end though, I'll venture that the 787 program, with all its huge apparent failures will be a net plus for commercial aviation.

You are more likely to fly on a composit Airbus years earlier because of the 787. Even if the 787 completely fails.

Did the fact that Eclipse bought 500+ PW600 (vs about 200 for Cessna) enable those engines to be sold at lower cost to Cessna and Embraer therefore making their "VLJs" more affordable? You bet.

Did the fact that Eclipse paid $50M or so to Williams to make the FJ22 make the FJ33 more efficient? Probably.

Did the fact that Eclipse paid $40M to Avidyne facilitate their integrated Glass Pannel suite development that may offer price competition to the G-1000? Likely.

All these are *HUGE* positives for GA.

Did the fact that Vern and EAC squander $1B and missed opportunities, hurt GA. Yes. Or at least it didn't help it as much as it could.

On balance is it a net positive or negative for GA? I don't know yet. But I think it is close. Not totally one-sided *JUST BAD* for GA.

Ken and Shari are type-rated jet pilots because of EAC. There maybe another 200+ individual owners newly type rated on jets like Ken and Shari. These pilots will not want to go back to piston props or even jet props if they can avoid it. So even if Eclise tanks, that is fresh new demand for entry level GA jets for someone to satisfy.

The point is that Eclipse let the genie out of the box for affortable GA jet flight. Many people tasted it. And somethings, once you taste it it is hard to live without.

Can't live without love, sex, AMGs and that fan-jet whine!!!! ;)

Except Gad, of course. He is happy in a submarine in the NM desert.

airtaximan said...

baron,

I dismiss them as a distraction... a very expensive mistake.

Will GA learn from that mistake?
Actually, nothing really positive will come from it.

Investors will make the mistake of not supporting viable programs in GA.

Suppliers who got burned will learn to limit as oppose to take risk.

I fear your end, the small GA jet, will suffer from this.

Vern proved you could fail in GA even IF you can wiggle $2B out of investors, suppliers, depositors and govenments.

So, thanks to Vern, startups in the small GA jet business are less likely, not more likely to happen... and yes, only a start up would take this risk, as described above.

So... you can keep dreaming for a $1M twin jet GA plane... its going to take a long, long time until someone tries THIS again.

stan said...

Another comment by "inside man" against the kob.com EAC article:

The ability of people to be so opinionated and simutaniously so uninformed is remarkable. I have been with Eclipse for a few years now and quiet as it's kept this is not the first time they were not sure they were going to make payroll, it's just the first time that they actually did not. Eclipse has been on the "verge of failure" many times going back 4 or 5 years depending on how you want to define "the verge of failure". So far they have always been entirely supported by investor financing so it should surprise no-one that they have money problems. They have to either become a high production facility or they will fail. It is that simple. But there is enough money already invested that there are people who are very highly motivated to see it succeed. Yes their record with honesty involving everyone is very poor, I would never try and defend this company for that record. But what is being served by all of these people who come on here, and elsewhere on the internet, and just bash, bash, bash? One of my previous posts was judged spam? Seriously the level of ignorance that people display here while simultaniously pronouncing their judgments is embarrasing. The guy from Colorado whining about "his" tax dollars being wasted? Since when did Colorado donate any of their tax income to Eclipse? It is absolutely true that Eclipse may still fail, but that has been true for years and it hasn't happened yet. Evil Todd says "If you can't see how they are bilking the city, state, vendors and customers then I can't help you." I never said anything about the money they owe to vendors, my point was that they have more then paid back the investment of the city by providing good jobs in a market that has very few. If I quit today my odds of landing a similarly paying job in Albuquerque are pretty **** low. And that is true for many Eclipse employees. People say we would be stupid to show up on Monday, maybe so, but if we do and Eclipse makes it we will very likely be much better off financially than if we take another job here in town. It depends somewhat on what you actually do but I am postive Albuquerque's market cannot absorb all of Eclipse's workers at the same level of pay they make now. Most of them will be forced to move elsewhere or take less money somewhere else. People act like they are out to get Albuquerque or like they are pulling some sort of scam. I said it before and I'll say it again, if they didn't still believe they could make a success of this company they would have closed already. Payroll here is not cheap and without a lot of planes rolling out the door it is a very expensive waste of money. What purpose would it possibly serve anyone to keep paying all of this money if they just planned on closing up shop? I am not saying it can't still happen, I am just saying that there are people at 1 dollar a reason who have hundreds and hundreds of millions of reasons to make this thing work and everyone seems to dismiss that out of hand.

bill e. goat said...

I'm glad everyone will be paid for what they worked over the past couple of weeks, and I hope as many as possible are paid for the upcoming weeks- I'm sorry it's not everyone. But- I URGE all the affected Eclipsers-

DO NOT BLAME ECLIPSE MANAGEMENT.

Maybe they are not saints, and maybe they could have made some different, and maybe better, business decisions here and there (but also, they avoided a lot of bad decisions), and I truly believe:

THEY DID THE BEST THEY COULD TO SAVE EVERYONE's JOB.

It just couldn't be done. Not by Mr. Pieper, not by anyone.

It's tempting to feel angry that there wasn't more notice of these events. I honestly believe if Eclipse management thought they could not have secured the full funding they sought, they would have let everyone know as far ahead of time. The fact there were no recent layoffs, demonstrates their good and true intentions along this lines.

I believe, as has been mentioned on this blog, that the UBS bank was the intended source for funding, and things went bad there just on Thursday. Mr. Pieper couldn't have known this, and he couldn't have prevented this.
UBS events on Nov. 13

Eclipse management tried their BEST, and did NOT try to fool anyone. Nothing was “kept” from the employees- top management had real expectations of maintaining full employment, and that's what was correctly passed down the line.

It's just that it proved impossible. Should they have known that? Nobody could have.

MANAGEMENT TRIED THEIR BEST.

That's not much consolation to many, but that's all you can ask of any man or woman, whether they be a dedicated assembly worker, or the CEO or COO or middle manager.

If you do have to leave Eclipse, please consider that you had a good job, with a good company, with good co-workers, in a good city. With the BEST management team? Maybe yes, maybe no. Criticize things within their control, okay, but don't dwell on it. And honestly- DO NOT blame them for things they could not control.

And don't blame yourselves for things beyond your control either. I think Eclipse did a good job selecting employees, and everyone is smart enough to comprehend this truth:

It will make you feel better about yourself, and it will make your managers feel better about themselves*, to be grateful for the experience you had there, even if it did come to an untimely end.

(If you don't feel that way, then you should have already left, and don't blame anyone- Eclipse, or yourself, just admit it and move on).

*And believe me, they do feel bad- maybe not as bad as you, but only half as bad, but many times over, for every employee they see leave. And THERE IS NOTHING THEY COULD DO about the situation- it just is the reality of the financial world right now.

Also, be thankful you are in aerospace- there are many worse areas of the economy (finance, construction, automotive, etc)-there really are aerospace jobs in other cities, and the skills you have acquired at Eclipse are useful in other industries besides aircraft.

So if the opportunity arises, say thank you to as many managers as you can: Roel, Peg, on down- not for failing to keep your job available, but for the good work experience and fellowship, the restored back pay, and even being able to save the jobs of some coworkers.

(No matter how bad your situation, I am sure you know someone whose situation is even worse- even if they are not as capable as you are- after all, they will have had a harder time than you in finding the next job).

And be PROUD of yourself: after this rough period is over, you will look back, and be proud of the friends you made, proud of the innovative product you worked on; and you will be proud to have worked at Eclipse.

God bless all.

Dave said...

I have been with Eclipse for a few years now and quiet as it's kept this is not the first time they were not sure they were going to make payroll, it's just the first time that they actually did not.

That is supposed to be re-assuring or to motivate people to leave Eclipse?

So far they have always been entirely supported by investor financing so it should surprise no-one that they have money problems.

This I agree. Eclipse said they'd be at least at break even years ago and the IPO was supposed to happen years ago. It should come as no surprise that what Eclipse says is false.

They have to either become a high production facility or they will fail. It is that simple. But there is enough money already invested that there are people who are very highly motivated to see it succeed.

That's the rub. Eclipse has demonstrated that there isn't a sufficient market for high volume production in order to get sustainable profitable sales (even if manufacturing wasn't a factor). The closest Eclipse/ETIRC have come is by cooking the order book to appear as if the market is larger than it really is...pure astroturf on their part. Being as motivated as you possibly can doesn't mean you'll produce and sell enough aircraft.

I never said anything about the money they owe to vendors, my point was that they have more then paid back the investment of the city by providing good jobs in a market that has very few.

That's called robbing Peter to pay Paul.

People act like they are out to get Albuquerque or like they are pulling some sort of scam.

They were with trying to pull an IPO based on what they knew to be false. Eclipse even prior to production knew that it couldn't produce an aircraft in 600 hours plus paint and testing and Eclipse also repeatedly knew how phony the order book was.

stan said...

dave,

Can you duplicate your comment on the kob.com site?

Might also suggest you list as your address - the eclipsecriticng blog.

baron95 said...

BEG said ... And THERE IS NOTHING THEY COULD DO about the situation- it just is the reality of the financial world right now.

Very nice post BEG. Trully nice.

But you must have missed the news on the new DaveGadFredShane International Act of 2008.

It is now a crime to fail in business. For every 100 jobs lost at least one executive must go to jail. If a company misses a milestone or uses money innefective, the Executive team must be stoned in the public square.

Lets get the bastards. It is a new day in America and the World.

FreedomsJamtarts said...
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FreedomsJamtarts said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FreedomsJamtarts said...

SFBF:Eclipse troubles bode ill for DayJet’s already shaky future

The answer is at 04:23

peacock farmer said...

Hey guys nice blog. What is the point of this blog anyway?

When I first heard that an ex miro-softie was forming a new airplane company based on a new way to spot weld aluminum called Friction Stir Welding I said "come on!" is FSW so much better than riveting that it could revolutionize the manufacture of airplanes? Please!
I am a 30 year aerospace engineer that has 20 years working in composites from the B-2 forward so a new metal airplane sounded like a bad idea to me, kind of like the ultimate buggy whip design for the drivers of the 1920's.

My bet is that all repairs of those first 250 airplanes will be done with rivets! Is a spot weld that much better and cheaper than drilling a little hole, putting a little rivet in the hole and bucking said rivet? Hell no the whole idea is a complete joke, mass producing spot welded metal airplanes!

You guys have mentioned the problems at Boeing. The common theme here is that airplane companies are no longer run by engineers and bean counters have no clue about the application of new technology to new products. They think they do but they are wrong. Note Cessna's summary thoughts on FSW: "yawn". Engineers understand that FSW is NO BIG DEAL!

Also there is a little phenomena called Murphy's Law that is going to bite Boeing on 787 and everyone who thinks engineering is just a support operation to give lip service to. I don't know that much about Eclipse even though my employer makes one of the few composite parts on the aircraft but I'm willing to bet that Murphy's Law had as much to do with the demise of Eclipse Aviation as anything. Look into why they could not build a 1000 units a year and you will find old Murphy. Engineers know who he is. He is the enforcer of Mother Nature's rules.

You guys won't fix your industry until you fix our schools and the engineering profession in this country. Bottom line, bean counters or ex-microsofties cannot and will not design the aircraft of the 21st century.

Dave said...

But you must have missed the news on the new DaveGadFredShane International Act of 2008.

It is now a crime to fail in business. For every 100 jobs lost at least one executive must go to jail. If a company misses a milestone or uses money innefective, the Executive team must be stoned in the public square.


Nice strawman

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