Speaking of that august publication, it has a few interesting titbits in the latest issue. Normally only available to owners or position holders, several public spirited individuals have shared their copies with me. Thanks to one and all...
The first page carries an 'ad'. Since hardly any new owners are taking delivery, the flight simulators are empty. Why not take them up on their offer, as it's probably the last chance you'll get. As a by product, FPJ Inc will collect some cash. Well, if I'm honest, I'm told it's the ONLY source of cash left...
We currently have excess simulator training capacity. If you have a second or third pilot associated with your aircraft who has been unable to attend training due to past training constraints, we can now address these needs through the end of 2008.
The 'spy in the cab' industry-leading Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) program which was such a hit with owners has now been formally released. It seems that people continue to abuse the FPJ, especially while landing. Read the EAC spin of their 'discoveries' yourself...
We evaluated 13,770 flights from October 2007 to September 2008. Approximately 1,075 events, or only 7.8%, were highlighted during this time. Unstable approaches constitute the largest number of operational risk events, followed by excessive bank angle at low altitude and exceeding maximum ramp weight.
Must be reassuring to know that your every move is being recorded for later download and analysis by those crack people at EAC. No wonder the owners are praying for bankruptcy, to clear the records of how badly they've landed.
Or how overweight their wives are...
But there's more good news! Those "Random Transponder Code changes" and the ever popular "Random Autopilot pre-select changes" join the "Random Comm/Nav Surveillance (CNS) switching" on the 'eliminated' list. Phew, that's a relief, so as soon as the AvioNG 1.5 software/hardware updates are approved, you will all rest easier. Hang on, you need to get these done by EAC. Which will be in an order dictated by the way the wind blows on Saturn in a month with 'z' in it.
We evaluated 13,770 flights from October 2007 to September 2008. Approximately 1,075 events, or only 7.8%, were highlighted during this time. Unstable approaches constitute the largest number of operational risk events, followed by excessive bank angle at low altitude and exceeding maximum ramp weight.
Must be reassuring to know that your every move is being recorded for later download and analysis by those crack people at EAC. No wonder the owners are praying for bankruptcy, to clear the records of how badly they've landed.
Or how overweight their wives are...
But there's more good news! Those "Random Transponder Code changes" and the ever popular "Random Autopilot pre-select changes" join the "Random Comm/Nav Surveillance (CNS) switching" on the 'eliminated' list. Phew, that's a relief, so as soon as the AvioNG 1.5 software/hardware updates are approved, you will all rest easier. Hang on, you need to get these done by EAC. Which will be in an order dictated by the way the wind blows on Saturn in a month with 'z' in it.
Or something like that.
So, keep a careful watch on your transponder, autopilot and all those other 'random' bits that keep your life interesting while aloft in your FPJ.
Finally (from the Flyer, anyway) the following advice, which confirms what several here already knew:-
Static Port Moisture - If you park your plane in rain or high humidity environments, cover your static ports to prevent moisture from accumulating in the static lines. Custom static port covers are on order and will be available at the Company Store in the coming month. Until covers are available, you can use low-adhesive painter’s masking tape to cover the ports. Be sure to remove the tape or covers prior to your next flight.
This statement surely begs the question, why did they locate the ports so badly, in the first place?
Meanwhile, word reaches me that several of the 'senior leadership' continue to hunt for new jobs, which will be hard with EAC on their CV's. The looming cash crisis is made worse by strict bank limits, which could be breached early next week. What this means is that the company has agreements with it's banks, stipulating certain targets. Once, for instance, the minimum cash at the bank is reached, the bank reserves the right to refuse payments. I've got some advice for those of you who's EAC expenses cheques bounced in August. Expect similar treatment next week.
So, keep a careful watch on your transponder, autopilot and all those other 'random' bits that keep your life interesting while aloft in your FPJ.
Finally (from the Flyer, anyway) the following advice, which confirms what several here already knew:-
Static Port Moisture - If you park your plane in rain or high humidity environments, cover your static ports to prevent moisture from accumulating in the static lines. Custom static port covers are on order and will be available at the Company Store in the coming month. Until covers are available, you can use low-adhesive painter’s masking tape to cover the ports. Be sure to remove the tape or covers prior to your next flight.
This statement surely begs the question, why did they locate the ports so badly, in the first place?
Meanwhile, word reaches me that several of the 'senior leadership' continue to hunt for new jobs, which will be hard with EAC on their CV's. The looming cash crisis is made worse by strict bank limits, which could be breached early next week. What this means is that the company has agreements with it's banks, stipulating certain targets. Once, for instance, the minimum cash at the bank is reached, the bank reserves the right to refuse payments. I've got some advice for those of you who's EAC expenses cheques bounced in August. Expect similar treatment next week.
Several owners have contacted me with concerns for the immediate future. A number are in the middle of preparing to file suit (under various headings) in an effort to either a) get their aircraft upgraded or b) their money back. These efforts may lead to something, as I'm aware that Frankenjet depositors have been able to extract cash. However, the long suffering FPJ position holders are being told that nothing will change unless the promised 'UBS funding round' is successful.
Something which seems highly unlikely at this stage.
Keep your eyes open for events at our very own FPJ 'enterprise'. Once your election is out of the way I expect events to move rapidly. I hope, for the sake of the workers, that these 'moves' are positive. Sadly, I think not.
Shane
386 comments:
1 – 200 of 386 Newer› Newest»Hi Shane,
I am a very long time reader of this Blog. Keep up the good work, it makes for interesting reading and has tremendous "entertainement value", at least in my eyes.
I merely wanted to add a little precision after reading the last post. The Grob spn was never intended as a VLJ. With a take off weight of 6'300 Kgs, it would have been difficult anyway to qualify for boxing in that category...
That's all.
Have fun.
I thought that Eclipse was planning to deliver their Chapter 7 filing on next Tuesday?
Oh sorry, no, that was the planned delivery date of Fiki, no, GavioNfG, no EASA Cert...
no freedom ...
you should be ashamed of being such an unfaithful ...!
next tuesday is the day for profitability , leading to production , leading to Avio 2.1 , leading to EASA !
exact order of events can be discussed against a 200 Millions $ check ! ;-))
Does anyone know which banks won the senior secured debt at Eclipse and how much the debt totals?
"which banks won the senior secured debt"
Was there a lottery? I would hate to see what second prize was!
Shane, Eclipse had no control over the E400 deposits. It was all on Escrow accounts and refundable till first flight or other event (I forgot).
So all the E400 depositors had to do is ask the escrow company for their money back.
B95
I specifically asked about this after receipt of a letter offering me a 400 position. I was told that the funds would be held "separately" by EAC, but by EAC nonetheless. So unless something changed, 400 depositors are among the unsecured creditors of EAC. I took a pass, by the way.
This statement surely begs the question, why did they locate the ports so badly, in the first place?
Static ports are ideally located at a point on the aircraft where the pressure is neither positive nor negative - i.e. the same pressure as would be found if no aircraft was moving through that air at the moment of measurement. Traditional instruments ( "steam gauges" ) that rely on static & pitot pressures for their operation have it piped to the instruments through hoses.
Electronic instruments require translation of the pressures into binary data, the role of the Air Data Computer. If I understand my source correctly, it is current practice to incorporate an ADC into the base of the sensor - be it a combination pitot/static probe or a standalone static port. This removes the need for tubing which might become blocked by moisture, and makes port/probe heaters significantly faster in their effectiveness.
Had Eclipse used this style of static port, the location on top of the nose would not be at all problematic - indeed it might be considered advantageous for the reduction in maneuver effects on the pressure. Apparently ( and perhaps in an attempt to reduce the number of ADCs - and their cost - on board ) Eclipse tried some sort of "hybrid" old-school/new-school approach to pressure measurement, and didn't anticipate the inevitability of the type of problem they're experiencing.
My source works for a competitor to Eclipse's supplier for the pitot/static hardware. He says that his company rejected Eclipse's ideas for what they wanted to do in that regard; "That won't work, go away!" Eclipse moved on to other vendors, until they found one that would accommodate their bad idea.
Pages 4 thru 6 of this literature from Goodrich might render what I just spewed, more sensible.
Would you like to Super Size it?
DI
Had Eclipse used this style of static port, the location on top of the nose would not be at all problematic - indeed it might be considered advantageous for the reduction in maneuver effects on the pressure. Apparently ( and perhaps in an attempt to reduce the number of ADCs - and their cost - on board ) Eclipse tried some sort of "hybrid" old-school/new-school approach to pressure measurement, and didn't anticipate the inevitability of the type of problem they're experiencing.
This would go to my hypothesis that NG gives bad information to pilots. Eclipse during certification got around false stall warnings by telling pilots to land faster and Eclipse created the Eclipse 400 by intentionally doing false programming by hacking the engine to give it false information. That Eclipse says NG fixes the false warnings generated in regular Avio (due apparently to poor aircraft design resulting in falty sensor readings) tells me NG hides the underlying design problem by getting rid of the error messages so instead provides false flight data. If there's an underlying design flaw that gives bad sensor readings, upgrading to NG 1.0, 1.5, etc wont solve the problem and instead could only mask the problem.
is there any official word that Eclipse didn't/won't get EASA cert? i'm sure they would have made a big public deal about it by now if they had it.
well, if there are technical issues to be resolved, EAC doesn't have the $$$ to fix anything. perhaps this will be the final nail in the coffin... i.e., if UBS funding is contingent on EASA, and no EASA.
SHANE: can you provide a link or any other details on the incident in Spain, if anything is available?
E.D.T.
When investors, banks, customers and desposit makers actually get their act together and hire/engage the legal advisors they need, EAC management, along with Board members and now especially, the ETIRC gang, are all definately going to be charged (if any of the lawyers and their clients are even half awake) with securities fraud and a long list of corporate legal fraud breaches. This Blog will migrate to "Eclipse Legal Critic NNG."
Deep Blue,
Looks like the fecal matter is starting to accelerate. Did anyone notice this yesterday on AIN?? I just found it now...
e.d.t
Eclipse sells DayJet 500s as owner lawsuits mount against Eclipse
By Matt Thurber
November 1, 2008
On October 21, Eclipse Aviation formally placed defunct charter operator DayJet’s 28 Eclipse 500s on the used airplane market. According to the manufacturer, the airplanes will be sold in “as is” condition. At last month’s NBAA Convention, Eclipse chairman and CEO Roel Pieper told AIN, “We have the responsibility to refurbish the aircraft and bring them back into the market.” Although a group of buyers led by Houston-based JetsAmerica was planning to offer $500,000 each for the DayJet Eclipses, Pieper believes that prices should trend higher and that fleet buyers waiting for Eclipse 500 deliveries might want to buy some of the former DayJet airplanes so they can launch their businesses earlier.
JetsAmerica had planned to make its low-bid offer directly to UT Finance, the United Technologies subsidiary that holds equity in the DayJet airplanes, but Pieper said that Eclipse must approve any sale of those airplanes. The 28 airplanes are still outfitted in DayJet livery, including leather seats, and have accumulated between 150 and 450 cycles. Some have remaining time on the original Eclipse warranty, and none of the 28 jets has Avio 1.5 avionics upgrades or flight-into-known-icing capability.
The DayJet airplanes are in three different configurations, and Eclipse did not specify when any upgrades might be available or whether they are included at no extra cost. Early models without the performance upgrades and with the original Avidyne-based Avio avionics offer a 355-knot maximum cruise speed and 950-nm range (NBAA IFR).
Another set is available with the same Avio avionics but including the later aerodynamic configuration, and these can fly 1,125 nm and up to 370 knots. Probably the highest-priced former DayJet Eclipse 500s are those with Avio NG (IS&S instrument panel), including optional SkyWatch HP, Class-B TAWS, AC power outlets, weather radar and third AHRS. Interested buyers were urged “to call for pricing and further details.”
Lawsuits Multiply
Meanwhile, two more Eclipse 500 deposit-holders ave filed lawsuits against Eclipse Aviation for not refunding their deposits. Belgium-based Royal Properties filed a lawsuit on October 8, accusing Eclipse Aviation, among other things, of failing to return “the deposit it paid despite the occurrence of a Refund Event and Royal Properties’ effective notice of demand for a refund.”
Robert Bigler of Cupertino, Calif., made essentially the same claim in his lawsuit, filed September 25. Bigler’s deposit totaled $182,000. On October 17, Eclipse responded to Bigler’s lawsuit with its own court filing, essentially denying most of Bigler’s claims and asserting, “Plaintiff did not comply with the contract requirements for obtaining a refund, and therefore has not yet given the required ‘effective notice’ under the contract at issue. Plaintiff’s claims therefore are premature.”
By press time, a group of deposit-holders that was proposing to force Eclipse Aviation into involuntary bankruptcy had not yet made a move. The plan was to try to persuade a judge in Delaware, where Eclipse is incorporated, that the company defrauded customers by taking deposits for jets that were supposed to be delivered within six months of the deposit being paid, without delivering the airplanes. “I think there will be no judge who will do that,” Pieper told AIN. “I’m disappointed that these people think that way, but that is because of the previous culture and attitude around Eclipse, and I would have hoped that these people would give us the time to fix what needs to be fixed and then come back to us. I think most of them will understand that there are so many other financial obligations that doing something like this makes no sense, just causes more damage, and then they’re not going to get any money anyway. I would be surprised if a bankruptcy judge would even go there with all the jobs at stake and all the other obligations at stake. I’m disappointed that these people hold a grudge against the company while they see the company changing.”
Some deposit-holders–fewer than 10, said Pieper–have changed their mind and canceled their refund requests.
Any refunds that do occur will have to wait for a final round of funding to come through, which Eclipse had been working on obtaining but had not announced as of October 21. After taking over as CEO of Eclipse following the departure of founder Vern Raburn in late July, Pieper has slashed costs, laid off 650 employees and cut production until a planned ramp-up begins early next year. The goal is to reach nearly one airplane per day in the first half of next year and 1.5 per day in the second half, but this is dependent on the needed funding.
Pieper has also spent a lot of time persuading suppliers to stick with Eclipse while money owed them is paid. “We have all our suppliers on board,” he said, and agreements are in place “for when they’re going to get paid and how they’re going to get paid.”
In an October report on Eclipse issued by Teal Group, vice president of analysis Richard Aboulafia wrote, “We doubt that Eclipse can survive as an ongoing business. There is a chance that additional cash injections would keep it alive for another year or two. But for now, our forecast calls for production to end in 2009.”
Eclipse still had not received FAA certification for the Garmin 400W navigator upgrade to the Eclipse 500’s avionics system by October 21. EASA certification is another important milestone, but this will not occur until the 400W modification is approved. And until EASA certification occurs, deliveries to European buyers will have to wait.
“We have a good order book,” Pieper said. “In fact, the order book will probably increase by at least 50 percent when EASA certification happens.” Taking the U.S. orders and those waiting for EASA approval into account, Pieper said, “We have three years of production, easily.”
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/eclipse-sells-dayjet-500s-as-owner-lawsuits-mount-against-eclipse/
well, if there are technical issues to be resolved, EAC doesn't have the $$$ to fix anything
This is why I think there is either technical issues requiring retrofits (which wont happen) or that the aircraft would be limited such as by altitude:
EASA Eclipse 500 Special Condition
Eclipse claims that all they need is patch NG 1.5 and they'd get approval from EASA, but I think there's more to it than that.
Let's not forget what Mike Press said about how close EASA supposedly was:
Company financing and stability is the biggest issue at this time. Eclipse is in a cash conservation mode until the final round of financing is completed. UBS is raising a portion of the final financing package with a number of institutional aviation investors to the tune of $200-300 million. They have narrowed the field down to a select few and maybe one investor will pick up the whole tab. The UBS financing will be at a good ROI but also will not adversely impact cash flow in the near term. Additional financing is coming in from “other sources”. This additional financing is most likely coming from the second “European” factory and also additional fleet sales. The amount of this additional financing or investment is unknown but probably is equal to the UBS amount.
All of this new financing depends on EASA (European) certification which was said to be going well and should be accomplished by the end of September. When this takes place, then the financing is supposed to close by October.
http://www.spjets.com/news.htm
September has come and gone, so has October and we are now in November.
Pieper told AIN. “I’m disappointed that these people think that way, but that is because of the previous culture and attitude around Eclipse, and I would have hoped that these people would give us the time to fix what needs to be fixed and then come back to us.
The culture is the same. Eclipse still feels that it is above having to honor contracts.
I think most of them will understand that there are so many other financial obligations that doing something like this makes no sense, just causes more damage, and then they’re not going to get any money anyway. I would be surprised if a bankruptcy judge would even go there with all the jobs at stake and all the other obligations at stake. I’m disappointed that these people hold a grudge against the company while they see the company changing.”
People want Eclipse to honor their contract so Roel says they have a "grudge." Eclipse after a decade still has a bad attitude. Roel's answer actually is exactly why you would file for BK so that a judge can determine which contracts are to be upheld/modified/cancelled. Roel's answer is completely backwards and Roel's justifications are exactly justification why Eclipse should be in BK voluntarilly or involuntarilly. Roel's logic of "Because we have no money, a judge would never put us in BK" doesn't hold water and I'd use those exact statements to try and force Eclipse into BK or pay up.
"EAC management, along with Board members and now especially, the ETIRC gang, are all definately going to be charged.."
Don't forget Mz Marion, and Nick Sabatini and his band of Congressional-testimony perjurers! I'm sure they will be protected by Prez Bush and Jeb Bush from deep within the Bush bunkers....or maybe not. I remember the dearly departed Kenneth Lay of Enron going from "Kenny Boy" to "Mr. Lay" to "Who?". Maybe the Nickster can help out in the factory by the Volga (or anywhere the US doesn't have an extradion treaty) and show 'em how it's done!
since july of this year, a total of 49 million dollars has been demanded refunded to the customers of eclipse. only half of which has been issued, the rest is on hold until the famous 200 million investment has been made.
since july of this year, a total of 49 million dollars has been demanded refunded to the customers of eclipse. only half of which has been issued, the rest is on hold until the famous 200 million investment has been made.
I just love Eclipse's excuse in court for not granting refunds. If you followed the instructions that Eclipse gave with the refund form Eclipse then uses that against you in court by claiming that doing what Eclipse said to do violates the deposit agreement. Roel claims that there's a different culture at Eclipse now - HA! All the major players are still there except for Vern and Roel seems to have an even bigger Spiny Norman complex than Vern with tales of how many aircraft Eclipse will make and sell.
Deep_Blue,
I would like to thank you for a nice lead in:
“At the end of the day however, the CEO does have enormous moral power to put a stake in the ground concerning expectations; most stakeholders will eventually respect it, but it takes courage and mostly, discipline”.
------------------------------
From a couple dozen posts down, of the string “Our Roll of Honor” on April 21, 2008.
An example of Vern's moral power:
“Brian Skupa, a member of the Customer Care team, decided he needed to share company confidential information with one or more of his friends outside of Eclipse. (Ah, Vern, was that in confidence, and not public?).
“First today he was fired and escorted from the building.
“Second we are filing a lawsuit against Mr. Skupa for his violation of the INDA
“and the potential damages that have been done. (Slug down some more Koolaid, Vern).
“And third, we may be pressing criminal charges against Mr. Skupa.
“The price of ignoring and violating INDAs (OR, TELLING THE TRUTH) will be
“very high and permanent,
“I will close with a promise...
“the price you and your families pay for the violation will be very high”.
--------------------------
(Original Post Footnote: “The best part of this, and you should note- Brian never once compromied his INDA agreement to employees outside of the company”.
Sounds like the service center guys in Florida got tired of the Bull Shit coming out of ABQ, and wanted to know when the hell the airplanes for Dayjet were going to arrive- is that an unreasonable request between coworkers?).
----------------------------
Deep_Blue:
"stakeholders will eventually respect it, but it takes courage and mostly, discipline”.
Goat:
By early 2008, Eclipse had devolved into a soulless shell of a company, devoid of any morality whatsoever.
The employees fell into two camps: those who desperately wanted to believe, and those who knew they were being lied to.
Yet the soldered on. Not out of respect for management- there simply was NONE (and deservingly so);
not out of courage (indeed, Eclipse management practices did the most to encourage just the opposite: fear),
but I would say out of discipline- self discipline, with nothing coming down from the top except more BS.
-----------------------
Never has an aircraft company had so much going for it- investment, tax breaks, work force, time, technology- and delivered so little, so late.
There is one person to acknowledge for that stupendous feat. Mr. Morality himself, Vern Raburn.
This has been a spectacle that turned from entertainment, to puzzlement, to disgust.
Much like watching Chrysler (oddly, for the same 10 years or so), I just wish they'd fold, and get it over with. I'm sorry for the employees and customers- let's hope whoever picks up the pieces will benefit all.
Never before have such bloggers with so little to say, said so much to so few, so many times.
I have greatly enjoyed this blog, and the wisdom and insights of ALL the participants, on "both sides" of the discussions.
It really has been a unique experience to see so many smart and sincere people, kindly sharing their thoughts, about aircraft, business, and life.
It has been thought provoking and educational, and I am thankful to all.
"Vivent longtemps le blog, et la bonne santé et le bonheur à tous les participants!"
(Long live the blog, and good health and happiness to all participants- at least my Babelfish translation!).
Cheers!
"Never before have such bloggers with so little to say, said so much to so few, so many times."
Well, we're kinda of in a holding pattern here. A month ago the Pegster promised us that the EASA pilots were - at that very instant- inbound to ABQ and implied that after a quick circuit of the field EASA certification was a given. Two weeks max. Been over a month and nothing fresh from the Pegster so we're just reviewing small little details like unairworthy aircraft, a corrupted FAA process, criminal fraud, abuse of depositors, Russian factories first promised in January of this year which have come to naught, dedicated FAA worker-bees called liars by Eclipse and the three FAA "leadership" stooges, and on and on. Sorry if it bores you, but stand by; the civil and criminal lawsuits should perk up your interest. If you are really bored maybe you can look up the Vernster and make a financial investment in his latest project!
"Never before have such bloggers with so little to say, said so much to so few, so many times."
Well, we're kinda of in a holding pattern here.
If that blogger actually believed what they said, they wouldn't have blogged here in the first place. I think it has more to do with crickets chirping at Eclipse than here.
And- there are some I am particularly grateful to. This is long overdue, but not a bit less sincere. In fact, I think time has probably increased my appreciation of events.
Stan- for starting this blog. Society in general has benefited, and everyone interested in Eclipse most certainly has. Especially those who were desperate for truthful information regarding the product and company.
(Although this has not been discussed before- I figure Vern's legal thugs leaned on Stan pretty
hard, trying to get names. He protected the trust others put in him. That took guts, and dedication to principles. I have total admiration his wisdom, and integrity).
Shane- for picking up the reins, and the tireless dedication to running the blog this year, with uncountable hours devoted to innumerous emails, I'm sure. Bravo!!
Becky and David Johnson (a.k.a., the family Ringtail)- for stepping in, and lending their voice to the legal actions.
They could have chosen the path of least resistance, and ridden it out with no ill consequence. But they didn't, the stood up for moral principles.
Karen DiPiazza, of Charter X- for her dedication to journalistic ideals and pursuit of the facts.
Baron 95- and many other advocates of the E500 and/or company, who offered solid support of honesty and decency.
"Eclipse owners and position holders should write to the Eclipse Chairman and BoD and ask them to "terminate" Vern or at least put him under the same restriction Vern is trying to enforce - no comments to the press or the public."
And personally, I'd like to extend my sincerest thanks to Rich Lucibella (a.k.a. Gunner).
Rich had no dog in this fight, but he personally paid for an EXCELLENT attorney, Norman Malinski, who soundly resolved this legal affair with stunning competence:
(From August 04, 2008 thread)
"Eclipse ended up withdrawing both the New Mexico and California case, with terms set by Malinski. "If Eclipse ever goes after these 29 bloggers again, Eclipse could face financial penalties in advance of proceedings," Malinski said."
I'm sure such outstanding legal representation was not inexpensive- and Rich modestly never mentioned this fact at all. All of the bloggers on Vern's list, as well as all readers of this blog, owe Rich a debt of gratitude (if not more).
Those who read closely might have noted that all the while this
legal noise was going on, there was an illness in Gunner's family- I am truly sorry this Eclipse noise was an additional burden during that difficult time. It makes me even more amazed at his selfless support of the blog and the principles of truth and honesty.
(Although with lives in the air a real topic of concern on this blog, all I can say is, when it came down to here-and-now, I hope God was with Rich's family during that period).
The world is indeed a better place for all of these fine people.
Gosh, it feels good not to be an Eclipse position holder or owner! Thank God for unanswered prayers!
Shane Price said: This statement surely begs the question, why did they locate the ports so badly, in the first place?
Shane, the static port issue may have nothing to do with the locating the ports "badly" on the aircraft. Instead, it may be that rain/moisture can run down the fuselage and into the static port and then into the static tubing. Such a situation may cause the accumulated water to freeze or play other nasty tricks. Realize that there are only so many places (in fact, sometimes very few places) to locate the static ports. The issue may well be that the static ports themselves were not designed properly to ensure water CANNOT move to the static pressure lines. Proper design of the static port geometry and knowledge of gravity can ensure that water does not flow to the static pressure tubes.
Dave Ivedorne said: If I understand my source correctly, it is current practice to incorporate an ADC into the base of the sensor - be it a combination pitot/static probe or a standalone static port. This removes the need for tubing which might become blocked by moisture, and makes port/probe heaters significantly faster in their effectiveness.
Dave, your source may have proprietary vendor lock-in on their mind in stating it is "current practice" to incorporate an ADC into the base of the sensor. Sounds like Goodrich spin. There is no clear cut "current practice". Goodrich themselves offer BOTH probes / ports with and without integrated electronics. Hence, Goodrich offers the customer, assumedly, what is best for the customer. Of course, Goodrich may often offer what is best for Goodrich which is a proprietary solution that cannot be easily second-sourced.
Dave Ivedorne said: Had Eclipse used this style of static port, the location on top of the nose would not be at all problematic - indeed it might be considered advantageous for the reduction in maneuver effects on the pressure. Apparently ( and perhaps in an attempt to reduce the number of ADCs - and their cost - on board ) Eclipse tried some sort of "hybrid" old-school/new-school approach to pressure measurement, and didn't anticipate the inevitability of the type of problem they're experiencing. My source works for a competitor to Eclipse's supplier for the pitot/static hardware. He says that his company rejected Eclipse's ideas for what they wanted to do in that regard; "That won't work, go away!" Eclipse moved on to other vendors, until they found one that would accommodate their bad idea.
Dave, your source seems to have an ax to grind. Everyone is a genius post-event. I doubt a Goodrich SmartProbe can withstand salt-laced water being left in the static port containment area (not pressure line) if the static port containment area on the Goodrich SmartProbe is the same design as that on the plane in question (probably not the same design, though). Did the aircraft manufacturer reject your source's design or your source? Could be they didn't want to be locked in for life with such a design and didn't like the complexity nor the cost of such a design. By the way, it is very possible that NEITHER the Cessna Mustang NOR the Embraer Phenom 100 use "intelligent" air data probes / ports. Ask your source about that.
The Embraer Pheonom 100 may be using the same supplier for its pitot tubes that supplied the faulty ones for the E500:
Volume 2, Issue 6
That supplier, Harco Labs, continues to cause problems on the E500 as pointed out by AIN by way of Shane:
Harco Probes Still Causing Eclipse Airspeed Problems
This post from "Ken Meyer" indicates that company has been making pitot tubes for 50 years. He may have them confused with Aero Instruments. Harco may have been in business for 50 years but the E500 could be its first significant pitot tube contract.
Yo bill e goat....
And I'd like to thank the academy and all of the people in support of of my... SHUT THE HELL UP
You sound like Obama.
justflyingalong-
Fair play on ya. I think we're in agreement that there aren't a ton of locations where static ports will work well. Your additional insight on the subject is instructive.
As it turns out, my source ( a friend for over 40 years ) probably has no ax to grind - I solicited the information from him without even identifying what aircraft I was asking about, until the discussion developed ( well beyond my comprehension ) into noise on the data bus ( he may have been engaged in a bit of salesmanship WRT the integrated ADC - it's the size of a freaking book of matches! ). Based on that discussion, until today's mention of tubing getting blocked, I assumed that the FPJ was using a similar system ( and forgot Harco's name briefly ).
As it turns out, he doesn't work for Goodrich ( which oughta narrow down the list quite a bit ) - Google led me to the source I linked to ( "static port location" ). As far as 'proprietary vendor lock-in' goes, is there any source for integrated avionics that doesn't play that game? Garmin? Avidyne? Collins? Honeywell? L3? Bueller? Isn't choosing a particular powerplant submitting to 'vendor lock-in'? There's plenty of proprietary stuff to be found on the FPJ, where Eclipse's pretense for getting phenomenal pricing was the volume they'd ostensibly be purchasing in.
My "intimate" knowledge of static ports is limited to specific piston single applications ( "yup, nobody taped 'em over; no bugs stuck in 'em" ). His characterization of a top of the nose location for them being non-problematic was explicitly based on use of a MEMs-based sensor, for which a moisture/icing variable is so trivially compensated.
That is what led to my conclusion that Eclipse tried a hybrid "old-new" design. Unfortunately, it seems to be a case of "worst of both worlds" rather than the alternative, showing up in the results. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it...
Pay at the first window,
DI
EDT :
as you mentioned , IF EASA was to be gained (*) any time soon , the MerryBand would tout it to the world as a major achievement
(*=where it is solely an administrative problem that has to be addressed with good normal practice , it is not a Jackpot lottery system :IF you do the right thing = they do not have any reason not to grant it , but to the contrary IF you take it the way EAC/ETIRC seems to take : your chances are zlitch , nada , rien!)
i do not think eclipse is in position to do anything about EASA for the simple fact that are in cash-conservation-mode ...
EASA is not coming in cheap ...
the Special-conditions haven't been removed yet ...
which means they (EAC) STILL HAVE TO PROVE the conditions enumerated in this document ...
that something i take as a big joke : IF EAC wouldn't have tried to sell their thing as something for COMMERCIAL USE (air-taxi) , they wouldn't have suffered those special conditions !
that's hilarious and send them back to "good old everyday wisdom" = peoples rarely get what they expect BUT ALWAYS what they deserve !
in this case , they have taken everybody else for stupids , even their clients were treated so badly that it should be written in the marble for the generations to come as "the bible of the things NEVER to be done to customers" , they expected the whole world would bow in front of them because a bunch of corrupted ass had the foolishness to agree to political pressure and own interests ...
so they get what they deserve = where is the barrel of tar and the bag of feathers ?
Roel + Vern + Ed = Welcome into the Real World ... where your high-profile buddies and all your cash means just next to nothing !
EclipsePilotOMSIV :
please do not be so constructive in your comments !
as sounding as Obama : may be he is not the right guy for the job (think about if you can : in democracy there is a limitation = the ones to tell the truth get very rarely elected ...) i personally believe NO ONE is fitted for the job ... not that any of candidates are bad , just the size of the task is just too huge ...
by saying what you said , it confirm quite well what i thought :
you can have the brightest and most talented political leader at the wheel , if majority isn't ready to blame the REAL responsible (themselves !) then it is doomed to failure !
billy :
you're right , i am 1500% with you !
on your french ...
if you ever happen to cross the pond , i would be delighted to give you a few lessons , we could exchange : you give me training in your idiom and i'll give some of mine ... ;-)
ok , just for you : babelfish isn't really any good ...
the sentence is :
"Longue vie au blog ; meilleurs voeux de santé et de bonheur à tous les participants"
you tried = it is perfect already !
baron :
first kiss the "garotta" from Ipanéma for me ...
then
#So all the E400 depositors had to do is ask the escrow company for their money back.#
i think you're a little wrong on this ...
after such a brilliant conduct of business as with the EA500 ...
the only option for EA400 depositors was :
to RUN-AWAY before paying ! ;-))
(what is the story again ? you get me once : shame on you ; you get me twice : shame on me ...)
Rainonourparade,
Never before have such bloggers with so little to say, said so much to so few, so many times.
First, welcome to the blog. I suspect this might be just another of your 'identities', but welcome all the same.
Second, your syntax sucks. What Churchill said was, as usual, constructed correctly:-
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few"
He was of course referring to the RAF, at that time (20th August 1940) the primary defense against German invasion of the mainland UK.
If you are concerned that there are few of 'us' why comment at all, while adding nothing of substance?
I would also draw your attention to a Google search for 'Eclipse Aviation'. Try it yourself. 'We' are still as popular as EAC, which is a bit odd given that 'they' are paying to be top of that listing.
Baron,
Shane, Eclipse had no control over the E400 deposits. It was all on Escrow accounts and refundable till first flight or other event (I forgot).
So all the E400 depositors had to do is ask the escrow company for their money back.
Not quite accurate. EAC maintained the deposits in a separate account all right, but retained a high degree of control, and as of early last week had not paid off a number of E400 depositors who had requested refunds. I'm excluding those who transferred from the FPJ. They were told that they would NOT be getting a refund until new investment made this possible.
My understanding is that E400 depositors will find themselves to be unsecured creditors when the axe finally falls.
Philf,
Does anyone know which banks won the senior secured debt at Eclipse and how much the debt totals?
My understanding is that the last significant trance of investment (ETRIC/Roel Pieper) was arranged by UBS. This explains why Roel turned to them when he realized what a turkey he had been suckered into.
By them...
E.D.T.
SHANE: can you provide a link or any other details on the incident in Spain, if anything is available?
Working on it! That's why my first comment was not 'upgraded' to headline post. I've learned (the hard way) to second source material before stating anything as 'fact'. In the EAC world this simple verb is twisted and turned so much it's lost it's original meaning....
Fred,
.... that's hilarious and send them back to "good old everyday wisdom" = peoples rarely get what they expect BUT ALWAYS what they deserve !
To which I would add 'There's one born every minute' or in EAC's case, about 450 remaining fools, waiting for an aircraft which will never be what they expected, but was always going to be what they deserved.
Shane
beg said:
"Never has an aircraft company had so much going for it- investment, tax breaks, work force, time, technology-"
Indeed.
When any businessman or venture investor looks at the enormous mix of commitments that were made to this company--and you could extend the list to include suppliers and depositors, the media and FAA even a US President--it is way outside the norm. Compare it for example to Adam, Cirrus or even the Piper Aircraft turnaround.
For anyone that ever started a business, the support EAC received may put a blush on your face; it certainly adds to the disgust many observers feel about the way the company went.
Perhaps all the support was actually a hinderance; maybe a good dose of quiet and humility would have tempered the management team there, and helped ease such expectations that were created. I speak from experience.
Perhaps all the support was actually a hinderance; maybe a good dose of quiet and humility would have tempered the management team there, and helped ease such expectations that were created. I speak from experience.
I know what you are saying, but when Vern left and Roel took over he did even more of the same. Roel claims that there's a new attitude at Eclipse, but Eclipse still talks of massive vapor with saying they'd produce and sell 2000 units per year and they still feel like they're above having to honor contracts that they sign. Roel could have scaled things back upon the departure of Vern, but instead Roel did the exact opposite.
oh , yes Monsieur Shane ...
it is amazing to me to see how so many victims (customers) supposed to be clever enough to have the financial means to afford a jet can be fooled by such ...
even more amazing to see "some" are still believers ...
don't they know that there isn't any point in putting a saddle on a dead horse ?
whatever you say , whoever you pray : it is not going to take you anywhere ...!
deep blue :
even if i agree that humility alone could have made all the difference in EAC ...
don't forget that the whole shamble was possible BECAUSE it wasn't quiet and humble !
that is one of the sickening part of the story ...
they made a lot of noise (for nothing) , they claimed to be the new Guru on the block , they invented a new religion : you were a thing of the past (critic or just not buying into all vern's foul words) or a die-hard , someone who could see the future , someone daring to "fly into future" ...
if they would have kept it quiet ,the deposits wouldn't have been in ...
the whole project would have had stopped where it started !
they (EAC) would have been forced to work-out the numbers on a sheet of paper , only to understand that Miracle do not exist :
if you cannot sell with a positive margin , you're done !
Fred,
bonjour!
200M$ investment
You are experienced to look for the bad side of an investment object.
At EAC, I think, there hadn't been any investment from non insiders for about two years. RP and customers are "insider".
Is there any good reason to do this 200M$ investment?
The only winner I can see is RP (if RP will really win when he will be involved in building up an EA500 production in ULY).
EAC gives to me the challenge to look for the positive side of EAC.
Points I can see are the:
- TC
- good handling characteristics
- PC
- number of produced a/cs
Naturally everything was poorly performed or is still under construction.
At the end I feel I am as good as rainonourprade in putting rain - but on EAC.
Apart from plus 200M$ there is a need for a CEO (plus other C..s)
who can push EAC into a new area.
Unmöglich? (gadfly!!)
Julius
P.S.: Hey Dr. Ken, where is the next EAC boss!!! No good EAC boss -no good EA500 fun!
Thanks Shane for all your efforts. I understand that you have lots of other things to do with your time. It must look like a light at the end of a tunnel for you, as the end draws near...
If I may add to what Fred mentioned regarding Vern, Ed, and Roel: I for one am way too cynical to think that all of this happened by accident. There may not be a Wizzard of Oz behind the curtain, or an Architect manipulating the Matrix ....pick your favorite metaphor.... but I suspect the BoD must have seen the writing on the wall this past July. I think the ONLY reason Roel was tapped to replace Vern was to give Vern some "plausible deniability" that EAC's total collapse occured X amount of time after he left/was pushed out. I find it hard to believe that Roel was/is working 110% to save the company; the Russian venture HAS to be a red herring designed to buy more time. I'm willing to bet he is only trying to increase the amount of time from July until when EAC finally dies just to give the **appearance** that Vern has less culpability.
Maybe I am too cynical for my own good, LOL. Most of us in the business world, I think, will never be invited into that class of Yale / Harvard country-club elites. I think that Vern is a member of that class simply because he paid his dues to Bill Gates via MicroSoft. Meaning that when this venture was about to go bust, the BoD circled the wagons and offered Vern the only parachute he could get his hands on: a chance to get away before bankruptcy papers have to be filed. Ed has his fingerprints all over DayJet's implosion; he was selling a different flavor of Kool-Aid so he can't blame Vern for DayJet's failure, IMO. Who made the decisions on *how* to use those 28 jets? Who made the decision to blow $30 million on cute computer models? Ed and Ed.
EACs outcome will still be the same. And the annals of business history will forever list Vern's accomplishments with an (*) like a baseball player convicted of steroid use....
E.D.T.
Guten tag , Herr Julius ...
klar !
i do not believe that RP did a major form of investment in EAC ...
i can be mistaken in this , but i feel RP had UBS to put some geld into the nightmare , not because it is good investment or because it is RP , more something like they had to try to get "something" instead of all their "subprime" , as a result of the madness policies in fashion until recently in the FED's ...
(remember the advert from a bank in California [i think] "if you can moist a mirror with your breath , you can get a loan with us !" it summarizes a lot the present situation ...)
as for the "GOOD" inside EAC ...
well , sorry , i fail to see any ...!
mostly due to the attitude of vern and the added attitude-problem from Roel ...
you see , mein freund , sometimes it is better to give-up ... or be ready to spend like mad ... but for what result ???
a Fpj that couldn't sell when money was flowing ... isn't going to sell any easier when money gets scarce ...
so 200M $ = what for ?
If I may add to what Fred mentioned regarding Vern, Ed, and Roel: I for one am way too cynical to think that all of this happened by accident. There may not be a Wizzard of Oz behind the curtain, or an Architect manipulating the Matrix ....pick your favorite metaphor.... but I suspect the BoD must have seen the writing on the wall this past July. I think the ONLY reason Roel was tapped to replace Vern was to give Vern some "plausible deniability" that EAC's total collapse occured X amount of time after he left/was pushed out.
I don't see Roel committing symbolic seppuku to benefit Vern, but I think Roel is carrying the same banner that Vern waved in hopes of finding another sucker. I think Eclipse built its financial future on the greater fool theory with hopes of an IPO and now Roel is going to find out he's the greatest fool as nobody is going to buy his stake.
I think Vern knew this was a house of cards since inception and seeing how Roel talks and does the exact same actions as Vern did, I can only speculate that Roel sees it as a house of cards too. I think all these guys knew it, just they had hoped to fool someone else.
I think their problem is that they are actually "dinosaurs" stuck in the pre-internet days. These guys don't understand that what they say is instantly available online and even if they talk overseas to a foreign language newspaper, it still reaches worldwide. Public records are also far more accessable now. I think these guys were counting on information arbitrage to trick people, which was much easier in the past, but now everyone worldwide can find out what a company is doing worldwide. Roel himself hinted at this by saying he was shifting his focus overseas since the Eclipse brand had been damaged in the US - here's a hint, the brand was damaged worldwide and compartmentalization of events in different countries can't happen like it used to.
EDT :
yes !!
even chaos has its own logic ...
so , it has to be assumed that the Fpj-story is either :
some kind of wonder-achievement from nature itself ....
or
something planned from beginning , and adapted (in course) with the situation occurring !
with all the over-promises (and under-achievements) i have a big doubt about nature ... ;-))
Dave :
i think you have brilliantly resumed about 95% of the plot :
"I think their problem is that they are actually "dinosaurs" stuck in the pre-internet days"
it sounds exactly like a "good old dot.com" ...
no need to make profits , no need to have product ... only to reason in "share of market!"
and i believe , i feel , my scum-sensors detect that they are so self-sufficient , that they got trapped in their own lies and incoherence ...
they expect US peoples to react like in the "dot.com" times , Play the foreign card on double-standards ...
but fail to see that the world has evolved since the time they screwed some others to make their fortune (pre-internet times)
so when they declare some blunders somewhere in the world , they cannot see anyone can be aware of this !
Aviation Safety Organization Names Names
October 31, 2008 –
The Aviation Safety organization announced three appointments today.
John Hickey has accepted the position of deputy associate administrator for aviation safety.
He has served as director of the Aircraft Certification Service for the last seven and a half years, providing leadership in the areas of certification, rulemaking, and continued operational safety of the products that operate in the National Airspace System.
KC Yanamura has been named director of the Office of Accident Investigation. She brings years of experience in aircraft production. Yanamura most recently has been deputy regional administrator in the Northwest Mountain Region, where her responsibilities included coordination of the regional response to emergencies.
John Allen has been selected as the director of the Flight Standards Service, taking over for Jim Ballough when he retires in January. As the deputy director in Flight Standards for the last five and half years, Allen ensured the service met its Flight Plan and business plan objectives – including moving all carriers into the Air Transportation Oversight System.
Wonder if Oberstar signed off on Hickey?
On the video from the Peg's testimony at the Congressional Hearing she states that they expect the full EASA certification in the "next few weeks" (5:20:34 into the video).
From Wikipedia:
Perjury, also known as forswearing, is the act of lying or making verifiably false statements on a material matter under oath or affirmation in a court of law or in any of various sworn statements in writing.
in the double standards Roel is playing i include the Ulyanovsk factory ...
presented as THE WAY to save all , the Russians (in the in personification of their Prime minister himself ) are "offering" a lot of cash as a down-payment of some sort of royalties ...
when i would say , that the russkies have been quite clever on topic :
They have NEVER spent a kopeck on the story , up to now they only said a formal YES in a multiform way of developing a specific region (yes , Roel Etirc/EAC plant is only a minor part of the overall plan )
Factory that would be build on loans from Russian State Bank , which woul have a MAJOR share in the project , as much as the city (an other slice of shares ) and the region (the last slice of shares ) the remaining few part (the ones attributed to Etirc) under liens until loans are paid-back )
so i see this as : Russians have NOTHING to loose the money remain in their control , the plant is on their soil and the board is 99% Russian officials ...
the last part of this 'double standards" being the "Royalties" supposedly paid to EAC/Etirc for being kind enough to accept building their non-sens in foreign land ....
but have you ever seen someone dying of thirst ?
do you think that anyone , right in his mind , would tell you (when you bring a glass of water) :
i would be pleased by a bottle of "Nuit St Georges" at the right temperature ...
to me the story about "royalties" sounds exactly the same ... since when Roel is in a position to dictate any exigence ??
"On the video from the Peg's testimony at the Congressional Hearing she states that they expect the full EASA certification in the "next few weeks" (5:20:34 into the video)."
You are correct. I was listening to the hearings as much as watching it and heard "two weeks". Eclipse issued a statement on Spetember 17 saying that "There is an agreed line of sight to recieve EASA certification, without restrictions (comma missing) within the next 60 days"
I have no idea what an "agreed to line of sight" means, but November 16th is the forecast date for EASA certification. Or when the refund checks arrive. Or not.
airsafety :
you are very bad ....;-))
in your sentence "or when the refund checks arrive. Or not."
if you would have miss the when , the crowds of "waiting for cash-back" would have raised an eye-brow ... (surely , if something could happen to make EAC refunding ...)
very bad of you to give them some hopes ... ;-))
as for the "few" weeks before EASA:
there is only 52 "Next Tuesday" in a year ... or if you put it in an other perspective ... it has only been some 520 "Next Tuesday" since EAC started this mess ...:-))
E.D.T.
Thanks Shane for all your efforts. I understand that you have lots of other things to do with your time. It must look like a light at the end of a tunnel for you, as the end draws near...
I think the blog's real future is actually predetermined. This will be the only place left for owners (and depositors) to 'meet' when E5C shuts down.
Don't think I will be the right 'custodian' as it will be a bit hard to avoid 'told you so' remarks....
What do you think?
Eclipso,
Your point about EASA and Peg is well made. The trouble seems to stem from the following, which is available on the EASA web site headed 'Eclipse Special conditions.
SPECIAL CONDITION
Eclipse Aviation is required to show that the cited requirements with regard to electrical power supply to the engine controls are complied with and that the redundancy and isolation standards are at least equal to those developed in the past based on these requirements.
Furthermore, Eclipse Aviation must ensure that the essential services (excluding engines), that remain available, allow for flight in IMC for a
minimum of 30 minutes and in VMC for a subsequent minimum of 30 minutes more.
If the aircraft is going to be operated commercially, it must be shown that destination and alternate distances are compatible with the provided capacity of emergency electrical power with regard to engine, systems and instrument availability.
Pretty clear that this will take quite a bit more than a 'few weeks'. They will HAVE to provide evidence of significant changes to satisfy EASA, specifically for 'airtaxi' operations.
Changes they are unlikely to be able to afford, right now.
Truth is a bitch, isn't it?
Shane
Monsieur Shane :
yes , i don't think they can afford anything along those lines anymore ...
if you add-up the AvioNg problem , it makes the situation even worse ...
as if they would get the EASA cert. now , they would have to pay (quite a lot) when AvioNG would be fixed , as it would be considered for EASA as "a major change" as referenced by EASA nomenclature !
so , all in all , it would be better if EASA cert. could be postponed to later time ...
the problem remaining is : THEY NEED IT for yesterday !!! ;-))
Pretty clear that this will take quite a bit more than a 'few weeks'. They will HAVE to provide evidence of significant changes to satisfy EASA, specifically for 'airtaxi' operations.
Changes they are unlikely to be able to afford, right now.
That's how I see it. I don't see it as impossible for Eclipse to get the peace of paper, but I see that there is going to be something unpleasant about it such as:
* Limited in altitude
* Can't be operated commercially
* Requires retrofitting (such as NG 1.5)
Eclipse might get the certification, but it wont do a lot of people any good, particularly if NG 1.5 is needed. None of the DayJet fleet for instance have NG 1.5.
the person to be asked about "intimate details" on EASA is :
Mr Antonio Tajani !
who supersede any work from EASA (he can block some works (part of his "commissioner status") , but cannot push , EASA isn't FAA , Sorry Roel !)
Here's a previous article that I had been looking for saying all that Eclipse needed was approval of a bug fix to get both FAA and EASA approval:
Flightglobal:Eclipse: European certification hangs on interference fix
#They will HAVE to provide evidence of significant changes to satisfy EASA, specifically for 'airtaxi' operations.#
that is EXACTLY why i wrote that if they wouldn't have been a bunch of lousy crooks , they wouldn't have sold the Fpj as "Air-Taxi capable"
they wouldn't have suffered those "special conditions" then ...
a bit like the story of the fire-fighter who start the fire which is going to burn him to death ...!!!;-))
dave :
the saying from EAC (interference fix) is crap ...
it is part of the other problem that would require EAC to pay twice EASA , if fixed after eventual Cert.
but , it is ok , no blame for you ...;-) anyway what did we expect with them ?
that is EXACTLY why i wrote that if they wouldn't have been a bunch of lousy crooks , they wouldn't have sold the Fpj as "Air-Taxi capable"
The aircraft is best used for private pilots, but instead Eclipse said they were a tertiary market behind air taxis and corporate fleets. Eclipse as a 50-150 units per year company could have done great. Instead for the past decade we get to hear tales spun of IPO riches based on producing and selling 1000+ units per year primarilly as air taxis.
but , it is ok , no blame for you ...;-) anyway what did we expect with them ?
I don't believe Eclipse's statements, I was just pointing out what the statements were.
Fred,
yes there is no reason to invest 200M$ in EAC, unless it serves ETIRC. ETIRC might need EASA cert -but not EAC.
In FAA-oriented countries there is no need for an EASA-cert.
EASA cert is only needed, if there are too few "FAA-oriented" orders.
But that would mean ULY will take labour from ABQ - this is a contradiction to VR's and RP's words.
If RP is "fighting" for the EASA-cert, while EAC is in "money conservation mode", is he supporting EAC once the EASA-cert is passed to ETIRC - if this is possible?
Or is this only a rearguard action to distract from RP's financial transactions?
Julius
P.s.: Furthermore, Eclipse Aviation must ensure that the essential services (excluding engines), that remain available, allow for flight in IMC for a
minimum of 30 minutes and in VMC for a subsequent minimum of 30 minutes more.
Does this mean 30 min with boots blowing plus... (IMC) and
30 min (VMC) gears in/out etc.?
If RP is "fighting" for the EASA-cert, while EAC is in "money conservation mode", is he supporting EAC once the EASA-cert is passed to ETIRC - if this is possible?
Or is this only a rearguard action to distract from RP's financial transactions?
I think it is a bit of both. I think Roel is trying to spend all of Eclipse's money (more precisely the money belonging to the depositors and 60%ers) on EASA certification to directly benefit ETIC while BKing Eclipse. Roel will run off with the EASA certification while leaving Eclipse's customers holding the bag. I don't think the Russian factory would ever be profitable (Roel himself might not believe it either and instead hopes to find a greater fool), but I think that is Roel's plan. Roel has already got caught with his hand in the cookie jar when he said he was going to have Eclipse pay to refurbish the DayJet fleet and then ship it off to ETIRCland. Notice how that the DayJet fleet isn't in ETIRCland, Roel no longer feels Eclipse has a "responsibility" to refurbish the aircraft. Eclipse under Roel's direction is doing things to benefit ETIRC at the expense of Eclipse because nobody is stopping him. Roel doesn't care if Eclipse goes BK just so long as he drains Eclipse dry first to benefit himself personally with other peoples money.
Eclipsepilotomsiv,
I've deleted your last post. Please avoid such crude language in future.
I do, however maintain your link.
http://www.ebanmagazine.com/mag_story.html?ident=9391
Here's an extract:-
But Neill, a professor at IESE business school, a leading MBA institution...
I've a simple response. Those who can, do. Those who can't teach.
Learn the language, which is powerful enough to convey what you are trying to say, without reducing the tone of this blog to the gutter.
Shane
Have fun
Yes, that was good reading. Taxijet isn't looking to buy many aircraft for themselves but instead to sell excess capacity of the aircraft belonging to private pilots. Those aircraft don't have to pay for themselves via commercial operations, but merely offset some of the costs for the aircraft owners. I'd expect an operation like this to do better than one operating on the DayJet model.
Does anyone know why a few weeks ago Eclipse changed their IP attorneys after many years? They went to MUNSCH, HARDT, KOPF & HARR, P.C. from IRELL & MANELLA LLP.
Perhaps this has something to do with it. Irell didn't just do Eclipse's IP but also did their private placements:
Representation of Eclipse Aviation, a pioneering developer of low cost, high performance jet aircrafts, in private placements of convertible debt and preferred stock to institutional investors in transactions.
Irell & Manella Private Equity
Irell also represented Eclipse in the Western Sky litigation:
Western Sky Industries, LLC v. Eclipse Aviation Corp., AAA Arbitration and District of Arizona. Representation of aircraft manufacturer in multi-million dollar dispute arising out of exclusive purchase agreement. Successfully defeated claims alleging improper termination of agreement, misrepresentation, promissory fraud, and theft of intellectual property.
Irell & Manella:Robert Klieger
I also found this:
Board and Program Committee member Matthew Sant was profiled in an article that appeared in the Winter 2006 issue of "IP Magazine." The article, entitled "IP's High Flier" discusses Matt's work for Eclipse Aviation Corporation, a startup aircraft manufacturer that hopes to revolutionize the general aviation industry. Matt has helped guide Eclipse through over $400 million in financing and negotiated a series of international supply chain agreements on Eclipse's behalf. Matt is a partner in the Newport Beach office of Irell & Manella LLP, where his practice focuses on complex intellectual property and corporate transactions.
World Affairs Council News
Irell had been with Eclipse for years. Did Eclipse not pay their bills to their lawyers?
Hey Shane you can shoot holes in that article all you want. But I think it goes to show you that for every article you have blasting Eclipse especially from Karen DiPizza or whatever. There is one that says the contrary. But agree to disagree. You don't have to believe the articles I post up, and I don't have to believe an article written by a clearly biased journalist such Ole Miss Karen. Maybe her articles would be credible if she was still able to obtain information directly from Eclipse. Or even a pilot that has had good experiences with the aircraft, Ken Meyer, myself, and I am sure there are many others. I mean heck I know for a fact you got your info about the Bellingham, WA aircraft from a 20 yr old kid, who doesn't even fly. He just hangs around airports. So much for your credibility.
"Maybe her articles would be credible if she was still able to obtain information directly from Eclipse."
ROTFLMAO
Laugh all you want. You wanna be a fair and balanced writer get the info from both sides of the fence. No matter if you think the company is full o the brown stuff.
Just get up off the floor, you can be a little more productive that that...
Hey Shane you can shoot holes in that article all you want. But I think it goes to show you that for every article you have blasting Eclipse especially from Karen DiPizza or whatever. There is one that says the contrary.
Your article was about Taxijet, not Eclipse. The article made no comments one way or the other about Eclipse Aviation.
You don't have to believe the articles I post up, and I don't have to believe an article written by a clearly biased journalist such Ole Miss Karen. Maybe her articles would be credible if she was still able to obtain information directly from Eclipse.
So what was obtained by directly talking to Eclipse in the article you linked to?
Or even a pilot that has had good experiences with the aircraft, Ken Meyer, myself, and I am sure there are many others.
You are talking about private pilots, which by Eclipse's own description is a tertiary market. I don't doubt that private pilots are happy, as I've said many times before. The issue has been over using the Eclipse 500 in commercial operations as that is what Eclipse's success hinges on as Eclipse has said for years and years. There's really nothing to be gained from talking to private pilots as Eclipse can't generate the sales volumes in which they speak of based on private pilots. If Eclipse was shooting for around 100 units per year and they targeted private pilots (which I think Eclipse should do that rather than the commercial/corporate sector) as their primary market, then I'd see more relevance in talking to private pilots about their flight experiences.
Now I just happen to know that "Ol Miss Karen" doesn't NEED anyone from Eclipse to be accurate, but has invited them to give their point of view on NUMEROUS occasions. She does in fact have some of the most credible information from the inside and as far up as...well...above the Governor.
As much as she would love to be more in touch with Eclipse, they repeatedly refuse to answer, which appears as someone with SOMETHING to hide..
(sorry, had to fix the typos before I get a Gad scolding)
This assumes, of course, that the "greater fool theory" still works. There are fewer and fewer buyers out there for aircraft, at ANY price.
Unless something happens with the FAA revoking something, I always see there being some market at some price.
True, there will always be some price where an E500 will sell. But if EAC goes BK, you can expect a 50-80% drop in price immediately.
There is NO reason to own any aircraft that is on the brink of losing so much of it's value. Why anyone would subject themselves and their families to that type of financial risk, when the writing is on the wall for EAC (the epitaph, in this case...) is beyond me.
The matter I was addressing was whether or not a market would exist, not the price for said market. I would expect the aircraft that can't easily have FIKI/EASA/etc installed would drop the most because chances are you'd have to pay for the retrofits post-BK. I do expect aircraft to lose their value, but they will maintain some value.
As for evidence EAC isn't going to be around much longer, take your pick - upper management gone or leaving, inept management, 1/3 of the workforce laid off, no certainty as to EASA certification, poor planning & execution of the EAC business plan, poor customer communications, unhappy customers, hundreds of aircraft that need retrofitting at company expense, dozens of pending lawsuits, no funding, no investors, bad economy here in the US, slowing global economy - aye carumba!
Really - what part of the big picture do the diehards not see?
Eclipse going BK does not mean the end of Eclipse aircraft flying. I both expect Eclipse to go BK (actually I think Roel is intentially trying to spend all of Eclipse's money to benefit ETIRC at the expense of everyone else) and for someone to come along post-BK and charge for retrofits and whatnot. It certainly isn't a consensus that Eclipse would survive post BK with birds still being maintained, but I'm not the only one who sees this as a possibility that it could happen give the amount of aircraft in the fleet.
eclipso
A long time ago, I had a college professor of English Rhetoric . . . a “Marxist”, if you will . . . not unlike a certain candidate for “President” . . . but he (the “professor”) spoke of the value of properly expressing ideas. Almost every paper I composed in that class earned an “A” . . . ‘even a term paper on Marxism, reviewing the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Stalin. (To this day, I prize that paper, and the book I purchased, and studied . . . it cost me a parking ticket while searching through a “used book store” in downtown Santa Ana, and buying for a few bucks a valuable reference volume.) It taught me much . . . to have an “open mind”, to examine difficult subjects from the mind-set of those with whom I completely disagree, to better understand why people come to their conclusions.
Within that exercise, I was able to understand how Marxism took such a firm grip on the minds of so many, especially among the educated elite (rather than the "poor") . . . and then was able to understand it's fallacy, and ultimate failure.
English is a beautiful language . . . with over 400,000 words (so far), to express almost every idea in the history of man, exceeded only by Greek and Hebrew, with brevity of words. Bottom line: True craftsmen, be they machinists, or word smiths, have at their disposal wonderful tools to express their thoughts.
A person who uses a crude word to express his thoughts is like a man who would use a “wrench” to pound a nail, or use a “screw driver” to scrape paint.
The man that would form ideas, and communicate his thoughts to others, will do well to guard his “tools”, as a jealous fanatic . . . ‘keeping them sharp, ready to use at every event with complete freedom, as a violinist would bring tears to the heart in the expression of emotion through the use of sound. That man would not think of using his most precious instruments, his precision tools, for corrupt and crude expression.
Your comments about scolding from the “gadfly” are both a complement, and a recognition that you care deeply about your own opinions and thoughts, and will cause the reader to take serious note of what you have to say.
The person who uses words in a careless manner says much about his own thoughts.
And with that, I will end my own comments.
gadfly
NEWSFLASH
AOPA booth and static display have both been cancelled by FPJ Inc.
Seem earlier predictions of cash shortages might (just might) have been accurate.
And it's still only Monday....
Shane
AOPA booth and static display have both been cancelled by FPJ Inc.
If this is true I'm surprised that they didn't just re-label it ETIRC, but I guess that would be too obvious.
This should be a cue to customers to take action. You don't want to be stuck attempting to get satisfaction after BK has been filed.
Reflecting the previously announced suspension in production for Eclipse Aviation, the Engineered Composites operating loss was $3.3 million ($0.09 per share) in Q3 2008.
Albany International Reports Third-Quarter Results
eclipsepilotomsiv,
you might have noticed, that taxijet intends to use 30 EA50 at 2013. That's more than four years from now!
"We have always bought new aircraft direct from Eclipse Aviation. However this may change in future as we need to bring new aircraft onstream faster than the factory is able to provide delivery slots."
How many a/c did taxijet buy - 1 in December 2007?
I think Spain is an ETIRC-country, from where are the a/cs coming?
Perhaps Neill isn't aware of the change at EAC..and the number of delivery slots!.
Flying around in an EA500 the press notice might be quite impressive - but remembering the "events" starting in December 2007 the author (no name!) seems to live in another world.
I do not think that this press notice is a type of support any owner of an EA500 is looking for!
Have fun with
http://www.ebanmagazine.com/mag_story.html?ident=9391
Julius
P.S.: How much are you going to pay to get your promised features (FIKI, Garmin,...) installed on your a/c.
The new investor has to pay for VR's wrong calculation or RP must reject the investment?
Gad,
That WAS meant as a compliment (sarcastically, I must admit), but due to your diligence, I have learned to TRY and think before hitting the "send' button, not just for proper spelling, but proper presentation of thought.
Well, fish in a barrel...
Rainonyourparade,
I think you're all wet !!
(Not quite as steamed up as our chum EclipsePilotx though).
--------------------
"Never before have such bloggers with so little to say, said so much to so few, so many times".
Quite so. Thank you for providing the corroborating evidence.
Ooh, ooh- you just KNEW it was coming, didn't ja ?!?
'fraid so...
here it goes...
Dave
Me thinks there is little remaining to be scraped from the stew-pot . . . or the “famous can of beans”. ‘Should a lawyer be retained, he would have less to gain than my own pet dog, licking the empty dish.
‘Had there been something to be gained, Chapter 7 would have been underway months ago . . . actually, over two years ago. But who wants to stand in line behind the State of New Mexico, the City of Albuquerque, etc., etc., etc.
Even “Tony Hillerman” (our famous local author) is recently gone . . . he could have written a good sequel to this mystery.
The entire scenario is pathetic beyond the visions of the Navajo “Shaman”.
All of the encouragements amongst the “plaintiffs” to vote early and often have gone unheaded. By the time the “customers” get their act together, the western end of the runway at ABQ will be “re-paved” or turned into a shopping mall.
Eclipse and their customers have this in common: “A Day Late and a Dollar Short!”
gadfly
(But they can never say they were not warned . . . years ago! Ignorance is bliss . . . but terribly expensive, at least for us “peons” . . . and we hadn’t even placed an order.)
(eclipso . . . You’s a good kid . . . hang in there, man . . . it’s all a game of words . . . and we’re havin’ fun! And I DID take it as a compliment . . . Thank you! Thank you very much! And as "the goat" knows, sarcasm is the fuel that keeps some of us goin'.)
Hello EclipsePilotSMx,
"You sound like Obama"
Why, thank you for the nice compliment!
I am sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I had better things to do.
But now, from Wikipedia:
Obama-
A graduate of Columbia University...
and Harvard Law School- Magna Cum Laude...
President of the Harvard Law Review...
Three terms in the Illinois Senate
He taught constitutional law...
at the University of Chicago Law School...
for TWELVE years (!)
elected to the Senate...
with SEVENTY percent of the vote...
delivered the keynote address at the DNC in July 2004.
------------------------
EPx, do tell me, please, if you had EVER done ANYTHING to check on his qualifications, besides indulging in some wacko drivel?
Have you ever visited FactCheck.org?
(Too bad it's too late to be applied to Vern- but I think this blog does a pretty good job of that angle!)
------------------------------
Not to say anyone is guilty of this, but...I DO tire of those who:
Have never had a conversation, rather than an arguement, with anyone they disagreed with.
Or those who find opposing views a waste of time, because of a sense of being smarter, and morally superior, to "those people".
Or have you never questioned even one of their own views, and R-E-A-L-L-Y had even this slightest interest in finding out if they are wrong, but rather spend all thier time researching why they are right...
-----------------------------
EPx, has it ever occurred to you, of shall we say indisputible intellect, that you might be being played?
How SILLY of me- obviously NOT:
"I don't have to believe an article written by a clearly biased journalist such Ole Miss Karen. Maybe her articles would be credible if she was still able to obtain information directly from Eclipse".
-------------------------
Sigh...I will slightly reword my above post:
"The owners fell into two camps: those who desperately wanted to believe, and those who knew they were being lied to".
------------------------------
Now, I don't necessarily agree with all of Mr. Obama's statements or opinions, nor those of his opponent in this election, Mr. McCain.
But I think everyone who has an ear for critical listening would agree Obama is a highly intelligent and articulate orator, whether they agree with his positions or not.
I do understand your cranky mood though, and would like to express my condolences to you, that your Brown Shirt candidate is not on the ballot. I think even your friend Adolf considered their course and surly demeanor an embarrassment.
(Cheer up- dress 'em up a bit, and things would go better for those with your seemingly dark, hate-filled, fanatical political genre- this free speech and consitution thing are JUST SO disgusting, right?).
----------------------------
I have attempted to avoid political discussion, and will (almost :) close with this observation of mine:
A CLOSED MIND IS A WASTE, AT BEST; AND TRULY, THE BIGGEST DANGER TO A DEMOCRACY.
----------------------------
EPx, have a nice day Tuesday, when citizens of the U.S. are voting for the candidate of their choice. Too bad you don't live in a democracy too.
But if you chose to leave North Korea, there is a chance your prescription medicine in the U.S. will be more affordable soon.
(An obvious plus, as it is obvious you must have run out some time back).
BTW, if you doubt the validity of Wikipedia, just go there an look up idiot.
:).
Hey Gadfly, you "butted" me out of the way!!
(What's one "old goat" doing banging into another !?! :)
(no honor among, er, well, never mind...I'm still relishing that early release thing, and don't want to jeapordize it...)
Dave,
If this is true...
Two sources, both very reliable. It's been on the cards for a few weeks, but I just got 'the word' this evening.
Starting to get some more detail on the 'Spanish incident'. Will revert when/if that one firms up.
Eclipsepilotomsiv,
I mean heck I know for a fact you got your info about the Bellingham, WA aircraft from a 20 yr old kid, who doesn't even fly. He just hangs around airports. So much for your credibility.
Without wanting to come across as a (more than normally) thick Paddy, when did I ever say anything about 'Bellingham, WA'
All I ever said about an FPJ up that neck of the woods was that the wife was mad enough at her husband to threaten 'blue murder'.
For a) buying the FPJ and b) stranding her thereabouts in his new toy that kept having problem after problem after problem.
And if the '20 year old' you refer to was witness to said problems (and the subsequent comments) and chose to share them with me, too bad for FPJ Inc.
He was not the only one.
As it happens, yours is the fourth comment, email or phone conversation that supports the events, which clearly did take place. Thanks for providing the extra detail about Bellingham. Didn't get that from anyone else....
Truth is a bitch, isn't it?
Shane
Goat, your Royal Butt Dintski:
Since these “kids” would not understand true competition, between two old rams, it would not be appropriate for us to go “head to head”, as it were . . . the violence would be mistaken for real “blood-letting” . . . and if they were to observe from “down wind”, we might never recover our reputation, and refined “aura” (or is it “aroma”), known only among the brave . . . and goats in general.
‘You get the wiff . . . er, drift!
gadfly
(Hey, it’s after 5pm, Mountain Time . . . Can I go home now? . . . The “Sandia Crowd” is no longer on I-40 . . . so I think I can make it home, safely.)
Without going into the realm of politics I have to throw out a thought....
Tomorrow will be a big day for us here in the USA. I hope for all to get as much as they can from the votes they casted. (Some will, some won't). I have cast my vote and hope I'm on that end, but must remember...as a retired veteran, I MUST and WILL support whoever wins and hope everyone else will as well
Can we keep politics off the blog?
There's enough blanket coverage of the US election(s) all over the world to keep even the most devoted busy.
This is, after all, the Eclipse Aviation Critic NG.
Shane
PS. I personally think that Ronald McDonald is the REAL President of the United States....
And...
I would have to say, I welcome our chum EclipsePilotomsiv's objective comments about the airplane, and what he thinks is going on at Eclipse, independent of reguritating press releases.
I was one (of many, I'm sure) who very much liked Ken's comments, and I thnk Epx has some good stuff to contribute too. The airplane, and the company, do have a lot of nice features (grrr- that's as nice as I can go: “interesting” features, perhaps? :), and some not-so-nice features, it appears. It will be interesting to hear more about things from the owner's (er, unbiased :) perspective.
---------------------------
And...Just to clear up those silly little misunderstandings our poor misguided “ole” Karen DiPiazza is struggling with...
What do you say we set up a call between her and Eclipse!
I think that's just a ducky-fine idea !!
I'm sure she could ask the right questions, and on the record, all these pesky misunderstandings could be cleared up quite nicely.
Perhaps a tour of the factory (and parking lot) would also clear up a few things.
Perhaps Epx, or someone else, would kindly try to arrange that? Perhaps be able to pull a few strings to make it happen?
I'm sure Ms. DiPiazza would make herself available anytime, for a telephone interview, or in person- I think it would do Eclipse good to fly her in, and maybe also Aviation Week. I mean, what do they have to hide?
(Given Shane just announced purse-tightening and the cancellation of the AOPA presence by Eclipse, I'm sure Ms. DiPiazza would be understanding and willing to bring her own lunch).
Well, I'm all tingly with excitement that this will soon be resolved.
The Charter X “hotline” email is : news@charterx.com
609-671-9300 (east coast)
503-282-5518 (west coast)
The Eclipse contact numbers are:
BS@eclipseaviation.com
505-944-3036
Oops- my bad.
PR@eclipseaviation.com
:)
Gad...I agree
Shane....I wish
Can we keep politics off the blog?
I don't think we can keep politics as a whole of this blog as politics are intimately tied with both DayJet as well as Eclipse. However, I do agree that discussing politics outside of it being related to Eclipse/DayJet shouldn't happen here.
B.E.G
I have very relable information that "Ol Miss Karen" has tried and tried to have a personal interview, but Eclipse will not talk or even entertain the idea that a candid interview could have helped them....surely too late now
Shane said: "I personally think that Ronald McDonald is the REAL President of the United States..."
We can dream, can't we? Instead, we got Bozo the Clown.
Shane:
Why are you insulting Ronald McDonald?
Shame on you
PS. I personally think that Ronald McDonald is the REAL President of the United States...
Shhh, Shane, you'll blow my cover!
Would you like the Happy Meal?
DI
I appologize to EclipsePilotOmsiv.
I was rude and bordered on vulgar, and offer my sincere regret and appologies. Really.
(I would remove the post, except it does express some concerns true to my heart. And in the process, exposes some of my human weaknesses as well).
I ask the academy for their forgiveness.
.)
I've got some advice for those of you who's EAC expenses cheques bounced in August. Expect similar treatment next week.
It sounds like DayJet 2.0 as far as not paying what is owed, but unlike Ed, Roel will sneak off in the night with what he thinks is valuable (not that it is in reality) and then leave everyone in the US holding the bag. What does Roel have to lose spending other people's money in order to enrich ETIRC? Afterall, he lives in Europe and about the only thing that would force him to answer was if he was indicted for a crime and was extradicted rather than sued for a civil action.
9Z
if someone gave here a really good piece of advice ...
you certainly did !
when you wrote : "sell at any price and use the tax-write-off" ...
this is(was) probably one of the best advice ever given on the blog...!
PS: i just had a look on calendar , holy smoke ... we are already the 4th of November (at least here , in France where i get ready for the "Vendée Globe") ...
too bad some had hopes on a bright future ...
the "tax-write-off" may not exist tomorrow ...
Mr Gadfly :
i admire you !
i agree that there is always more "grey-stuff" in 2 skulls that in only one !
we ALL have to make an effort to understand the "other side" point of view ...
but i am sorry to disagree on your writing : Marx & Engels where real marxists : no doubts about this(wont Mr Gad be a "Gadist" ?) , still if one understand the way most of population was living in the place and time they were living , it is no wonder why they wrote their theory !
still it is quite interesting to see they were living in London , a place that has always been known for its ultra-liberalism (up to a certain point ... now that they nationalize their banks like "good old socialists"...) and its way to preserve the "way of life" of the very few to the expenses of the biggest numbers ...(i personally think they made OK till the point where the Duke of Westminster was(is) the owner of half of the soil of London and by the play of "lend-lease" was doomed to make his family richer and richer thou times , now situation is a bit different since the royal family of Saudi Arabia owns about 50% of all buildings , i am not sure they will accept to keep on paying every now and then that Duke heirs ...they got it wrong :better is the worst enemy of good , this is an other example !)
Lenin was a wandering crook , believing that "terror" was a political mean(he organized the first Goulag [concentration camp]just after the 1917 seizure of power , stealing the idea from the British [they "invented" it in the Boers war , South Africa, much before the Nazis made it "more efficient"]) from his exile in Western Europe and mass-starvation a "social engineering tool" (where "old rulers" preferred to refer to war to "purge" the excess population )
Stalin was paranoid-mass-murderer (still quite interesting to see the parallel between Hitler and Stalin , both the same , friends like pigs in a pigsty until they got on each others ...)
Communism had lots of drawbacks ... the worst one being Human nature !
that said it had lots of good point as well ...
no one was afraid of tomorrow , no one was afraid of having 6 or 7 kids all of them wanting to go to University for 8 to 10 years ...
in fact , it is quite funny to see that the Soviet form of communism failed not because of cold-war (Cold-war ONLY ruined everybody on a short or long term) , not because it was doomed to be a bad-system ...
but ONLY because of the natural greed present in the human nature !
exactly in the same way that in his time , democracy seems to be doomed , as well , for the simple fact that with times going by , peoples always end-up to vote for the one saying the sweetest lies ...!
there is a reason why Churchill said :"democracy is the worst system , at the exception of all others !"
why do i say that ?
because as mentioned by Dave , Roel is playing between reality and myths lying in the "common
mind" inside all of us ...
Russia is still an under-developed place , but is there anybody to believe that Mc Donald's arrived just after the native-Indians were "gently" removed from their original place ?
does anyone believe that O.B. is a marxist ? or even a socialist ? (between France and Germany , we have some real weird specimens , if you want , we can send you a few , for you to really understand what it is ...please ...)
i personally believe that the best feature of USA is to be able to work all in the same way after elections ...
please keep it for your own good , whoever is going to be elected !
Fred,
.... (between France and Germany , we have some real weird specimens , if you want , we can send you a few , for you to really understand what it is ...please ...)
I think we should keep our remaining Socialists for ourselves.
After all, they are an endangered species.....
Shane
Monsieur Shane :
it is not very nice of you to keep all the "joy" for ourselves ... !;-)
i would be pleased to offer some of our rare specimens , the ones even the Russians communists laugh about ...
thinking of it a little more , i would put a condition = They cannot be sent back ! ;-))
Fred,
bonjour!
Unfortunately you are right when taking about human nature.
I think the democracy is more fault tolerant than other systems.
But the human nature always allows
the misuse if the egoes are big and tiny enough.
Therfore Mr. Hickey is going to become deputy associate administrator for aviation safety. That's life..
Perhaps Mr. Hickey will ask EAC to install an emergency descend assistant to make sure that in case of generator problems the FPJ can be landed at an appropriate airport. A no-brainer or...
Julius
P.S.: The emergency descend and flight plan planning to an appropriate airport are part of the FPJ syllabus?
Guten morgen , Julius !
#P.S.: The emergency descend and flight plan planning to an appropriate airport are part of the FPJ syllabus?#
yes , off-course !
it is called "parachute use" !:-))
#I think the democracy is more fault tolerant than other systems#
may i venture into saying that this ability IS the most problematic point of democracy , even if it is one of the best as well ...
as you wrote misuse is possible ...
to give an other example :
if Bubles-Greenspan would be burnt in public place (like a witch...or something like a heretic) , burnt using the paper he created building his bubbles ...
would it be possible , in future , to re-experiment the same booming-fiasco ???
unfortunately , if mankind could learn from its own mistake "peacefully" it would be known by now ...!
an other point (concerning a little more aviation )
I've heard that Ryanair (a company from Guiness'land) have stated a profit results dropping of some 47% (ouchh , that must hurt ...)
but being naturally confident , they declare as well they forecast an expansion of their activities (low-Cost) including a London/New-York for some very few € , explaining that what cost the most is plane-buying itself ...
forecasting that lots of airliners are going to be on offer , they think they would be able to buy few of them to be used for this new destination ...
sounds like pretty dark future for aviation in near future ...!
Fred,
Amongst my 'life experiences' was observing (at very close range) the principle players at Ryanair. They grew up with a very simple business philosophy.
Shaft everyone.
Suppliers, staff, customers, governments, unions, banks, airports, oil companies, shareholders, the list is endless.
One of the best examples is the move Mick put on Boeing after 9/11. He ordered 125 737-800's for $25 million each (list at the time was $37 million) and then he did the really clever bit.
He cornered the American taxpayer to give him a loan to pay for it all, with currency security and at a AAA credit rating.
Ryanair are now selling some of the earlier birds, for more than they paid for them.
Did I mentioned governments getting shafted?
So, expect more of the same, only this time he will play off Airbus against Boeing, with the EU and the US lining up to provide 0% finance.
The reason Ryanair get away with this is their balance sheet. Last time I checked, they had close to €2 billion on hand.
So yes, aviation is in for a hard time. But those with strong balance sheets and a proven track record will slaughter their opponents.
For a period anyway.
Shane
Here's the AOPA exhibitor list and Eclipse is nowhere to be found:
AOPA Exhibitors
The closest Eclipse has to representation is JetAlliance.
Now on the UBS front they expect a $5B loss this quarter:
Reuters:UBS says money outflows slowing, wary on fourth quarter
Monsieur Shane :
i agree with you a thousand % ...
one of the guy i know in aviation world (knowing them quite well) told me once :
"Ryanair ? it better to count your fingers , once you have shake hands with them ...!"
in past they were regularly being sued in continental Europe for black-mailing small airports in a very simple way :
if you do not pay us to come to you , we won't bring you passengers !
just a shame airports didn't send them to hell all at same time , they would have been trapped in their own trap ...
guess an other down with human nature , always one to think being more clever than others ...!
as for the future , we are all back to the "old rule" : cash is king !
banks buying other banks ...
airlines buying other airlines ...
peoples buying other people's properties , who thought too highly of themselves ...
still the same effect : cash is King !
i guess time for "inventive finances" is over , for a much longer term than you one you mention ...
dave :
the 5B$ are not the loss ...
only the capital outflow !
as for losses , figures are so ridiculous , i wonder if it means anything anymore ... (think 80 to 100 B$ ...)
Hawker Beechcraft cutting five percent of work force world wide.
Q: Could you describe your role in the Avio NG retrofit [for the Eclipse 500], originally, and now the new-build Eclipses? Was that on short notice that the new team was brought together to produce the Avio NG? Was that a challenge for IS&S?
A: Yes and yes, to those points. We were approached by Eclipse as a potential supplier of the cockpit display system. They already had an architecture in mind because they had a number of aircraft that been certified and supplied with the incumbent vendors at that time. But they were looking to upgrade the capabilities of the offering in the aircraft. In a sense, we were made for each other. They wanted a short-term solution and, having come largely from a retrofit background, not an OEM background as a company, we knew how to work with existing interfaces, designs, and knew how to do it both rapidly and cost-effectively. We viewed that as a challenge. Between contract and certification of Avio NG — and there were other vendors involved, PS Engineering, Honeywell and others — it took 10 months, and I think that’s unprecedented. We are very pleased with the achievement. Since that time, we’ve had contracts with Eclipse. We’ve continued to upgrade the functionality. They’ve received certification for flight into known icing conditions. We were involved with that, as well as others. I don’t want to suggest that any of this is solely attributable to us.
Aviation Today:Q&A with IS&S
Dave,
Here's the AOPA exhibitor list and Eclipse is nowhere to be found
Maybe they forgot to book?
Perhaps there was a 'diary conflict' and there is a more important aviation show, in Antarctica.
On the other hand, it might be because they don't have the money to go.
Which is pretty much what I told you, yesterday.
Shane
Maybe they forgot to book?
Here's the real story (snicker). The interns booked to this AOPA event thinking this was the right one:
2009 AOPA National Assembly
On the other hand, it might be because they don't have the money to go.
Which is pretty much what I told you, yesterday.
My post was intended to validate what you said by taking it from the AOPA website itself.
Dave,
What about the show in Antarctica? I was fully expecting you to discover something there...
After all, you do dig out the most extraordinary 'stuff', which always impresses!
Seriously, I'm pretty sure that the cash is running out, faster than anyone thinks. Although this company has a long history of 'Hail Mary' type infusions, I think there is real trouble looming now.
It's one of the few things I've really learned over time. How to 'smell' money. I can walk into a room and know, very quickly, if there is any to be picked up.
This situation feels empty and drained. The people come across as past caring. Nobody has stepped up with a plan which is credible.
It's so sad. I've seen it before, and have to admit that some companies have survived worse.
But I don't think this one will, this time.
Shane
Seriously, I'm pretty sure that the cash is running out, faster than anyone thinks. Although this company has a long history of 'Hail Mary' type infusions, I think there is real trouble looming now.
I think Eclipse's fate was sealed with the ealier ETIRC bailout that resulted in Roel taking over. Once that happened it was all about ETIRC rather than Eclipse.
This situation feels empty and drained. The people come across as past caring. Nobody has stepped up with a plan which is credible.
I think that is hard when the CEO devotes all of Eclipse's remaining resources to benefit ETIRC and who spent his time sailing and then ducked out of the congressional hearing because Eclipse wasn't important enough to him.
It's so sad. I've seen it before, and have to admit that some companies have survived worse.
But I don't think this one will, this time.
I think Roel wants Eclipse to survive just long enough for EASA certification so that he can then shutdown Eclipse with no money left and leave everyone in the US holding the bag while using that certification for ETIRC. I don't think Roel's plan will work, but I think that is his plan.
dave :
#I don't think Roel's plan will work, but I think that is his plan.#
i feel "the plan" (as you wrote it) is doomed for failure ...
EASA is putting as much trust in the production process than in the Cert. itself ...
may be it's an effect of "old European world" but it seems to me that EASA have it own religion about having a plane Certified AND the plant as well ...
i may be wrong on this , but i believe that any labor shop granted EASA status has to show its ability to comply with the set of rules defined by the agency !
so (if i am right , or close to be ) Ulyanovsk could be Certified , but after a ABQ closure seems already more doubtful ...
if you add it with the Russian aspect of the problem : it can become a nightmare ...
next time i will be in Vodka-land , i will propose a new name for the town of Etirc ...:
instead of Ulyanovsk
it could be : Unmöglichgorod !
gorod = town
Unmöglich = impossible
which all in all would be a good resume of Roel pretentious ideas !
FYI: they have the blind optimism of Ronald Regan in Quebec, LOL...
e.d.t.
Reports of Eclipse Aviation's bankruptcy premature, firm says
The Gazette
Published: 13 hours ago
Reports of Eclipse Aviation Corp.'s imminent bankruptcy are premature, the head of the jet maker's Quebec-based landing-gear supplier says.
Serge Le Guellec, president and chief operating officer of Mecaer America Inc., said he isn't convinced by recent forecasts predicting Eclipse will cease production of its very light jets in 2009. Eclipse is a key customer for the Laval-based subsidiary of Italy's Mecaer Group.
Quebec engine-maker Pratt & Whitney Canada Corp. is also an Eclipse supplier.
"We are following the situation very closely. We understand that for Eclipse there are difficulties securing financing," Le Guellec said. "I think we must be prudent, but I also think it is a bit premature to predict its (Eclipse's) demise by the end of the first quarter of 2009."
Last week, U.S. analysts from the Teal Group and Forecast International said they don't expect Eclipse will be able to secure the minimum $200 million the company needs to continue operations.
"Eclipse continues to produce aircraft at a low rate as it seeks to preserve cash," said Forecast International aircraft analyst Douglas Royce.
"We believe that the company will be able to push production out into early 2009 but will be forced to cease production within the first quarter of 2009," Royce said.
Longtime Eclipse critic Richard Aboulafia, of the Virginia-based Teal Group, was equally pessimistic in a note to clients.
"We doubt that Eclipse can survive as an ongoing business," Aboulafia wrote. "There is a chance that additional cash injections would keep it alive for another year or two. But for now our forecast calls for production to end in 2009."
Launched in 2000, Eclipse introduced the 500 model as an entry-level jet with a $775,000 price tag that could carry five passengers about 3,300 kilometres.
A pioneer in the very light jet market, Eclipse was counting on orders from executives fed up with commercial air travel, along which "air taxi" companies that promised on-demand inexpensive air service.
Eclipse's woes were exacerbated with the May demise of its largest customer, airtaxi operator DayJet Services LLC.
Le Guellec said Mecaer's Canadian operations would survive even if Eclipse is forced to seek bankruptcy protection.
"Obviously, it would have an effect on us," he said.
"We have worked to diversify our clientèle so that would mitigate the impact."
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/business/story.html?id=747576b0-1f15-44c7-bfa6-9c5b263c19e5
Albany International Q4 transcript:
Turning finally to composites, in August we announced that at Eclipse Aviation, AEC's largest customer, was substantially cutting back production. For AEC, this meant a complete stoppage of production of parts for Eclipse. We also stated in August that we expected Eclipse to ramp back up in 2009. Indications from Eclipse are that they are on track for a 2009 recovery, which would mean that AEC Production of Eclipse components would return to at least Q2 2008 rates by Q3 of 2009.
Albany International Q4 2007 Earnings Call Transcript
It's almost official - premiums on Cessna Mustangs are (almost) down to ZERO.
As predicted on this blog.
9Z,
Your modesty does you proud.
These 'zero' premiums on all things VLJ were predicted, as I recall, by your goodself....
I'm staying up 'late' tonight, to watch the game, sorry, election. I'm hearing some interesting news on the AOPA thing. Some people think it's a great idea that EAC pulled out.
Myself, I think E5C has gone very quite lately, if all they can do is praise retreat.
I know when I attend an industry trade show, the first thing I do is check out who's NOT there...
Shane
EDT,
sounds like the Quebecers prank call on Palin the other day, posing as Sarkozy...
someone obviously was spoofing as the optimistic EAC supplier to the Gazette.
Gad, per Shane, please take the political comments somewhere else.
It could all be over by next Tuesday.
Freedom,
In many ways, it is. The election is over, and so is EAC's marketing department. This from a Mike Press 'communication' following the AOPA announcement.
I think this is a smart move. Why spend the money on marketing now? They need to spend the money elsewhere for the time being. I heard most of the marketing department is now working in Customer Care, helping owners and deposit holders.
Would that include giving the deposit holders back their money?
Just asking....
Shane
Yes , Monsieur Shane ...
I would add :"they should have started by that !" (scraping off the marketing dept.)
but isn't it the same Mike who wrote that EASA was to be finished by end September and UBS cash arrived by end October ? (not to mention the Russian Royalties Money already arrived)
I feel as well that the few who considered the "tax incentive" of spending money on the bird , are now going to play it "low profile" ...!
"I heard most of the marketing department is now working in Customer Care, helping owners and deposit holders."
Yes, that's smart! Take people with no knowledge or experience whatsoever in aircraft maintenance, repair, or modification and put them in customer service! Brilliant! And what on earth is involved in "helping" a deposit holder? Their refund checks were the subject of an Emergency AD and were grounded?
feedomsjamtarts,
It could all be over by next Tuesday.
times are becoming harder.
There is still a need for 200 - 300M$ - for what? For quarrelling with annoyed customers, suppliers,
politicians, exec team members, employees, and "old" investors?
For replacing the "bad guy" Roel and installing a "good guy" without any bad history?
I would have expected a finacial demand at about 100M$ for suppliers and updating the fleet.
What does any investor get for the next 100-200M$?
That is Roel's major secret!
Is this amount needed to keep ABQ alive or dying until ULY is running?...
"Next Tuesday" tomorrow, on Friday... we will see!
What about the Frankensein (EA400)?
Julius
Since Dayjet doesn't seem to need to declare BK, why should Eclipse?
Insolvency doesn't seem to be such a big deal.
Man, am I stupid for not taking a USD Ninja, negative geared loan on multimillion dollar property here in Europe. Of course I would be insolvent by now, but that is obviously no hindrance.
I guess the years of EA500 broken promises and delays sorted out the people with cash and brains from the people with cash and no brains years ago.
One would have expected at least three screwed deposit holders to drive Eclipse through BK court out of sheer, bloody minded, revenge for spoiling their dreams. But the depositors with any spine took refund events years ago, leaving the "diehards" patiently holding their ankles, waiting for godot.
Pathetic really.
Holy crap, i don't believe it.....Capt. zoom finally had a somewhat critical piece on eclipse.
they must have missed an advertising payment.....
sparky :
payment...
payment ?
please stop using foul words when speaking about EAC ... ! ;-))
freedom :
i am not sure the one who had spine left long time ago ...
the main reason could be a bit more trivial :
it is the market-structure for EA500 ; a jet which was cheap ...
would you like to be known as the one who bought a cheap-jet (inexpensive being the main word)
to look-like the ones who can afford the Real Jet
(the ones the price argument isn't the main value)
this aspect can be already a bit disturbing , if on top of it you have to publicly claim "you have been done and they weren't kind enough to use lubricant ..."
would you (or me) accept that very easily ?
especially if the ones who haven't left the boat on first sinking-alert seems to be the type to overdue a bit their claim of being "soooo ..."clever to have chosen the fpj !
so , i am (hopefully) probably wrong , but i feel it plays a role in the play !
fred said...
baron :
first kiss the "garotta" from Ipanéma for me ...
Come down to Rio and kiss her/them yourself, it is "said to be" quite fun. The Baron, on the other hand, can only kiss one very special "garota". ;)
In any event, I'm typing this on an overnight flight back to Washington, DC. When I land, there is going to be a new president elect and the mandatory Wall St reaction, but for sure, no more garotas around ;(
baron :
now , i am sure you are a kind of masochist !
you go to a place with "a rich-targets environment" and you can kiss ONLY ONE ?? ay caramba !
i've been to Rio already , been working in Nordeste as well , i think i know a bit Brazil ...!
but to return your comment :
why don't you stay on the beach ?
you're going to miss all the fun ....
and kissing = since you have been living in France for a while , you should remember we are always kissing everybody ... on cheeks , you little pervert !! ;-))
little footnote for understanding :
any country has some kind of taboo ;
(something everybody knows , everybody does , but no one want to talk about ...)
USA = Sex
France = Money
Germany = Relation with past
Poland = Antisemitism
Russia = Weakness (if you're nice = you're weak ; if you never smile = you're powerful)
i don't have any taboo , sorry ...;-)
Sparky,
Holy crap, i don't believe it.....Capt. zoom finally had a somewhat critical piece on eclipse.
they must have missed an advertising payment.....
The way I hear it, and you would not believe how much comes to eclipsecriticng@gmail.com, Zoom is owed quite a lot.
Not enough to bankrupt him, but serious 'ouch' money.
Sad, really, to see a guy who has had some standing within aviation fall for the house of cards that is EAC.
Whatever remained of Zoom's reputation will be forever tainted by his relentless cheerleading of all things FPJ in general and Vern in particular.
And, to add insult to injury, the loss of the aforementioned 'ouch' money is likely to turn him from 'friend' to 'foe' overnight.
He has what we would call form in this arena. I gather his temper when crossed is a wonder to behold.
Shane
Vern and Ed together again:
AVIATION WEEK's Very Light Jets Management Forum
I do expect Eclipse to get EASA right before going under because it benefits ETIRC, but here's another deadline that Eclipse missed, which missed deadlines is the story of Eclipse:
Eclipse CEO Roel Pieper said in September that Eclipse would have EASA certification by the end of last month, but this didn’t happen. The spokeswoman couldn’t provide AIN with a new estimated date for European certification, saying only, “We expect it soon.
AIN:Cash-crunched VLJ Maker Cancels AOPA Expo Exhibits
Now there's another lawsuit against Eclipse. This time in Texas:
BLI Aviation LLC v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
This case had been filed on October 6th in state court, but Eclipse is trying to remove it from state court and instead be in federal court. This lawsuit was brought by a depositor who put down the 60% (in total they've put in $725K) for S/N 387. In response to the lawsuit all Eclipse did in court was file a one sentence denial! Munsch Hardt Kopf & Harr, P.C. is the law firm for Eclipse in this case and this is the law firm I had pointed out earlier that they had recently replaced Irell & Manella as Eclipse's law firm.
here's Munsch's profile showing the cases they handle. This shows Irell's profile. Perhaps the switch came because Eclipse is focusing less on Intellectual Property and is gearing up for lawsuits and BK, which Munsch has a better profile if a company wants to go BK or fight a contract dispute.
anyway , when EAC will go under ..
it will be a very sad day for all law-firms ...!
while i am at it , there is a rumor floating around , the UBS bank in need of more cash infusion from swiss authorities are facing a difficult choice :
to close all activities in USA !
so it would add to 40.000 finance jobs expected to be scrapped already in 2008/2009 in New-York only ...!
how about getting a "new round of finances" roel ?
Shane,
Capt Zoom a sympathetic figure?
I think not!!!
His checkered past is well documented.
IMO he is A very threatening and unpleasant fellow to deal with.
According to his claims, I must owe him a million dollars for material posted by others to the blog that was copied from ANN.
So Shane, I can understand why you are prohibiting ANN comments on the NG site. Capt Zoom can be a major league pain.
And Jim if your reading,
"FOXTROT UNIFORM"
Subj: RSVP Regrets for AOPA
Considering the prescience of Shane and our notables, the incredulity of the bloglodites astounds nevertheless.
Let us not forget that Eclipse drastically reduced their NBAA posture, but to use a poker term, were pot committed, and needed a presence in Orlando to have any hope of attracting financing.
At that time they openly admitted an even smaller presence in San Jose. The AOPA booth was effectively cancelled at/before NBAA, and the static display absence was announced once world events would minimize carryover.
So, given that Eclipse is not taking orders and certainly does not need the publicity, why would the remaining minions expose themselves to the vitriol and rancor of the masses – faithful and unwashed alike?
Plus, if the house of cards does collapse, why risk having assets (jets, kiosks, people, etc.) more than 750 nm from home?
For the next couple of years, one should not be surprised at the parties where Eclipse does not appear, but where they actually do.
Zed
So Eclipse still showing up at AVEX?:
AVEX brings together business executives, royals, government heads, aviation enthusiasts, tourists and the Egyptian public.
The first two days of the event are assigned as Trade Days, focused purely on business and VIP networking. This platform
offers both aviation corporations and public aviation companies the opportunity to display small and mid-sized airplanes,
helicopters, commercial and business aircraft, related equipment, accessories and services. Visitors at AVEX will discover
the latest technological innovations and meet the leading handpicked exhibitors including Airbus, Boeing, Cessna, Egypt
Air, Eclipse Aviation, Embraer, ATR, ExecuJet Aviation Group, Gulf Stream, Hawker Beechcraft, Rolls Royce,
Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation, Thales and many more.
AVEX Press Release
Also I found this funny how the interns at Eclipse are still touting DayJet:
Business Partners:
DayJet™ Corporation: Per-seat, On-demand Jet Service
Not everyone can own an Eclipse 500™, even at such a remarkable value. So DayJet Corporation purchased a fleet of Eclipse 500 aircraft to bring a revolutionary idea to regional business transportation: per-seat, on-demand jet services. DayJet’s services will be uniquely tailored to each passenger’s individual schedule and priced only slightly higher than full-fare coach airfare. The company will own, manage, and operate its fleet of Eclipse 500 aircraft as an on-demand carrier under existing FAA Part 135 on-demand regulations.
Eclipse Aviation Partners
Notice how not everyone can own an Eclipse 500 - not even DayJet!
yes , zed ...
but in the next few years , i believe EAC is going to appear NOWHERE ...!
and still they need to attract new victims , like honey attract bears !
considering that they need an other Billion-like (*) to, one day in the far, have the possibility of paying some return on investments (yes ! , some still believe it is possible...) they definitely need some kind of public exposure ...
they should meditate on a saying :
"far from the eyes is far from the heart "
(*) a Billion-like = 200/300M$ for "surviving" ; 205M$ for building Ulyanovsk ; 600+M$ for paying furnisher's bills = a Billion+ ...
yes ,if you want to be a kind donor : they accept anything banknote , coins even buttons (if in metal)
Nothing like a little financial crisis to weed out the weak (Grob), the wounded (Eclipse) and the dead (Adam).
How much longer till Piper and Epic stop and Honda delays their jet certification efforts?
And then there were two of each in Noah's ark.
2 twin-turbofan players: Embraer and Cessna. These will do well.
2 single-turbofan players: Diamond and Cirrus. These will, well, you know,...almost get there .... sometime.
Quite depressing actually.
Huh?:
I recently picked up a copy of Trade-A-Plane and saw that positions for delivery of the Eclipse 500 jet that will be occurring this year and early next year are selling for $300,000! That’s right, a $25,000 investment made in 2001 could return up to $300,000 today, all because of Eclilpse Aviation. It’s not even right to call it an investment, because it is a fully refundable deposit. I wonder how many people will give up the dream of owning an Eclipse 500 jet in the near future in exchange of hundreds of thousands of dollars for their position. It made me wonder what I would do in that position. Would I take the money and run, or pony up the rest of the dough and buy the airplane?
I think what I would do in that situation is buy the airplane, enjoy it for a few months and then decide whether to keep it or sell it at a huge premium to somone else who wants it more. I might be able to make enough off the sale of the jet to purchase a nice fractional ownership piece of the Eclipse 500 from a fractional ownership program. That way, I’d have my money and access to the airplane. Pretty soon, there will be so many Eclipse Aviation Eclipse 500 jets out there that someone will be giving flying lessons in them. Now, that is something I’d sign up for!
Stick And Rudder Blog
baron95,
Quite depressing actually.
someone has to pay for the secured cert on cheap houses nobody wants to live in.
Now we have to pay the bill.
Did anybody say that nobody has to pay for a house, the construction of which was paid? Another way of redistribution of (temporary) wealth....
Now there is not enough space in Noah's ark. Mankind insists on intrinsic sustainability of any kind of species - business included.
Julius
P.S.: Freezing of stem cell does not help if the cells do not fit to the new environment.
That same post can be found here.
Todd J. Snively - the supposed owner of the blog - is no where to be found in the FAA database of registered pilots - even though he brags of having 6000+ hours.
However, a Google search of that name will provide many interesting articles - perhaps not the same Todd J. Snively - or...?
Anyone want to be Eclipse's upholsterer? Eclipse is of course going to be designing lots of new models:
This position has responsibility for the technical leadership of the seats and interiors design engineering group. Duties to include designing value engineering improvements to the seats and interiors for the Eclipse 500 and the new design of seats and interiors for follow-on new aircraft models.
Lead Design Engineer, Seats and Interiors
I just received a thank-you note and a sizable check in the mail, earmarked to offset legal expensdes. From none other than our own Bill E. Goat.
Class Act, Bill. I thank you for both. As to the rest of you, please DO NOT follow Bill's lead. I'm afraid it will push me into the "spread the wealth" tax bracket and I simply can't afford that. ;-)
Thanks again Bill.
Rich Lucibella
Did you all read the Captain Zoom NTSB transcript?
Let me tell you a story from a man named Zed ...
Proposed Expositive on ETIRC …
But first … for those not familiar with the Mechanical Turk, or MTurk, I reference Wikipedia:
The Mechanical Turk (MTurk) is one of the suite of Amazon Web Services, a crowdsourcing marketplace, that enables computer programs to co-ordinate the use of human intelligence to perform tasks which computers are unable to do.
etc … (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/amazon_mechanical_yurk)
therefore, it should hold that …
The Exploitive Tirc (ETIRC) is just one of a suite of Eclipse Customer Services, a maladaptive crowdscrewing marketplace, originally enabled by a visionary raconteur (VR) to subordinate human intelligence merely to extricate deposit money based upon virtual events … where heretofore even the most rapacious computers are unable to do.
and …
Refunding of deposits can occur only after ETIRC Workers substantiate qualifications before engaging in totally ignoring you, and they can then set up an unconscionable test in order to verify your qualification for said refund. They can also summarily reject the request sent by the Depositor, which could reflects upon the Depositor’s reputation if he/she/it has one of merit. Currently, because this is Eclipse, a Depositor must live in the penumbra, but since Depositors are thus far only on Earth, you are all screwed. If received, ETIRC payments are valid until 10 minutes –before- the ink dries, and can be redeemed only on PonziScheme.FU.RP via gift certificate, via a coupon for $10 off your next 60% cash deposit, or be later transferred to a Depositor’s JetComplete account. Depositors, who are typically morons, are lucky to receive 10 percent of the price of a fully completed FPJ (or less for extremely cheap but typical FPJ) from a subsequent Depositor …
I read it on the Internet ... it must be true!
Linear Air Closes New Round of Financing
"Linear Air Closes New Round of Financing"
Greater fools have been identified.
Are you kidding??? $1.3 million and that counts as a new 'round' of financing??? Jeeeze.... you can't even go on a decent AIG junket with $1.3 million. I'm not sure really what would have more value: $1.3 million of toilet paper from CostCo ....or $1.3 million of Eclipse, GM, Ford, or Chrysler stock. But in this case, I'm sure Linear will be more rational with the cash than Eclipse...
e.d.t.
Gunner,
It was related to "expenses"... so if properly applied, it will not push you into an unfavorable tax situation! Especially if applied to expenses incured in 2008...
How is your Epic coming?
Are you kidding??? $1.3 million and that counts as a new 'round' of financing??? Jeeeze.... you can't even go on a decent AIG junket with $1.3 million. I'm not sure really what would have more value: $1.3 million of toilet paper from CostCo ....or $1.3 million of Eclipse, GM, Ford, or Chrysler stock. But in this case, I'm sure Linear will be more rational with the cash than Eclipse...
Actually what I think this is showing is that there's some commercial business possibilities out there if the commercial operators use the aircraft owned by private pilots rather than owning the aircraft itself. Both Linear Air as well as Taxijet are going to be using someone else's aircraft when they aren't using it rather than owning the aircraft outright. Also Linear Air seems to trying to distance themselves away from Eclipse. This is showing how the Eclipse business model is wrong (as we already know) counting on separate air taxi fleets as it looks like the commercial fleets will piggyback on existing sales to private pilots rather than buy aircraft themselves.
EDT,
It was stated the money came from their existing "committed" backers.
Also, it appears as if, the owners of ea-50's are being identified as "low hanging fruitcakes" who will place thier wonderful aircraft under management with Linear.
I suppose, these owners are being targeted.. for obviuous reasons...
I suppose Linear is changing their business model... for obvious reasons...
I suppose the backers have infused additional capital so as not to lose their investment, yet.
PS. aircraft charter prices are WAY below last year, or even Q-1 this year levels... because demand is down due to the economy and fuel is down, due to lackluster fuel demand. You can charter a real jet for $1500 an hour these days. My sense is, the fuel component is not a large contributor to this new market reality...
THINK
julius said...
Now we have to pay the bill.
Did anybody say that nobody has to pay for a house, the construction of which was paid?
Oh, the construction was paid, in large part with overseas investor money. The loans were made in large part with overseas investment money in the collateralized securities.
Then people found out the houses were over priced and the loans were made to people that couldn't pay.
The losses were spread t oall corners of the world. Everyone had to sell something to cover something else and the price of everything came down (as it should) in that distressed selling situation.
What you've heard was a massive sucking sound of the US sucking money from all corners backed by assets that were in a spiraling decline.
Some $13B in equity and about $6B in real estate collateral is no more. Painful.
But, it is really, really cool to see how the American consumer is teaching big corporations a thing or two.
GM/GMAC tried to be cute and cut loans and leases. They got punished, not a bit, but massively. Even Cadillac, the high-end brand got a 56% (MORE THAN HALF) sales decline in October. Vs some 17% for BMW for instance, wich simply raised lease rates a bit.
Moral of the story, don't get too cute with the American consumer trying to hide behind a crisis. We don't care.
We still will ONLY buy if the price is low, the service is great and the financial conditions are enticing.
You can FORGET about raising credit score requirements, raising downpayment requirements.
The American consumer will be perfectly willing to sit on the sidelines and inflict major, major pain till the deal is to our liking.
Back to Aviation, if Eclipse wants to sell VLJs, it better have a ton of money on hand to do lease deals and fiance deals along the lines of the DayJet deals and be prepared to write off planes by the dozens again and again.
That is the price of doing business with the American consumer.
Take the mortgage default, the credit care default, the auto loan default and smile. If you don't, you'll get a lot more shoved up your A$#.
P.S. By "you" I mean companies doing business with the American consumer, not Julius, in case it was not obvious.
What a lesson to learn. Priceless.
Any company that believes it has pricing power vs the American consumer is in for a treat.
You can FORGET about raising credit score requirements, raising downpayment requirements.
There are reasons for such requirements and ignoring those requirements got us into this mess in the first place. All you do is lose money if you do business with people who don't pay you back. Just like with those who do business with Eclipse, Eclipse doesn't exactly have sterling credit, so you can't be surprised if you don't get paid back.
I remember all the hoopla about subprime where it was all about who could get the biggest share of liar loans and the like, but putting money out to categories who are high credit risks just means you've got a big chance of losing lots of money. I don't see getting the biggest piece of the pie in throwing money down a rathole to be good business sense.
dave :
you are 100%right(again :GRRRR ! ;-))
the present situation is an avatar of the past mistakes ...
no doubt about !
this is where it is important that "normal" peoples don't get confused between "ideas" (illusions) of richness and richness , itself ...
in the last few years , in the US , it was much more about an idea than about real wealth ...
this is where the Eclipse
drama-comedy take its roots , and where it will end-up , as well !
because if you look at it , EA500 has been designed as something like :
an idea of a good plane for peoples with an idea of having enough money made by other peoples who thought they had an idea of knowing how to make it ...!
No need to say that between reality and what it seems to be , often , there is a galaxy of difference ...
Herr Julius ,guten tag!
I am not sure you have a good knowledge of the Anglo-american system of finances ...
not that i have some @^|` ideas about an eventual better knowledge of mine ... just that the last time i tried to explain to "normal everyday banker" (not high-profile crook)both in France and in Germany (the only one i saw "not surprised" was in Luxembourg , but he thought it was pure madness !) what is "refinancing" or "self-certified" in the UK or US
i was glad those persons knew me of previous acquaintance , i was afraid they would call the police or have me sent in psychiatric asylum ...
so when you say about paying the bill , be careful as it is something quite tricky to understand ...
there different categories of cases ...
1° the ones who couldn't afford at all , even if Baron is going to tell you the opposite , most working peoples saw theirs "relative income" (income - inflation) decrease in the last few years , even if in absolute they were getting more and more money , in fact they were getting less and less value...
those have been screwed by the system , no doubt about ...
they believed the "american dream" was at reach (when i don't see why it is "american" as 99% of world population is having the same , and most in developed-countries or emerging ones can reach it with exactly the same rate of success than in the US... )
what is really crazy about , that some crooks in the US have had the idea of spreading the risks on foreign investors ...
(where it is a real contradiction with the spirit of US enterprise = anyone can take any risks if it is someone else facing the blame and costs , for this : EAC is such a brilliant example of this attitude ...)
what is even more amazing is that the greed of those foreign bankers could lead them to accept something that was not even worth the paper it was written on !
2° the re-financing case :
i don't know if the US are as much concerned as UK ... (i hope not)
in the UK , most had the idea , since they couldn't make more money with work-income, to FEEL (or look like) they had really the highest way of living in Europe ...
for this , they got loans on their own housing with the said housing as a security ...
like this seems to be too much simple (inventive finances) instead of getting loans against the value of their belonging ...
they started to get loans on things which wasn't their property yet ( still credit to be paid on ) ... (this is where most everyday european bankers get lost "how can you borrow against something not yours already ?)
since it wasn't enough for some , some banks started to lend against the FUTURE value of housing (taking in consideration that the housing-price was always going to go up ! mad ! isn't it ?)
no need to say that those ones are totally lost today , i don't have any pity for them : they played , they have lost = tough life ;Fck'em !
still it doesn't remove the world problem created by those crooky-bankers (both US and abroad!)...
this is where EAC is (once again ) a very good example :
a little bit of humility would be a big + ...
and to remember a good old rule :
If returns is higher than a very few % above inflation = it is either dangerous or on the dark side of laws ...
An acquaintance in ABQ tells me that EAC has stopped all training activities with immediate effect such that even those in current training have been sent home. Some explanations were speculated upon by EAC personnel and training contractor personnel but my acquaintance could not discern a reason with any certainty.
Regarding the carbon at high altitudes, could that have something to do with the FADEC software patches that Eclipse did?
Dave,
Some of the 'commentary' I've read, specifically the P&W stuff, would lead one to that conclusion.
However, I understand that the FADEC software itself is P&W's own code, which I doubt would be at fault.
The 'smell of burning' (pun intended) is excessive load, at high altitude, when bleed air is used to heat the main cabin.
Not making a technical statement here, just trying to remember one of the shedload of documents that have passed across my screen...
Shane
i thought Fadec was from Snecma through one of their Sub. : HispanoSuiza ...
it would be a good way for the "MerryBand" to blame others ...
More bad news for the top end of GA.
Mooney has halted production and laid off 229 staff, in a effort to match supply with demand.
Meanwhile, over on Controller, a really strange transition is taking place. More than 60% (when you include the 28 from DayJet) of the aircraft and/or positions listed are being sold by EAC.
?
This seems passing strange, even to me....
Shane
Monsieur Fred,
Bonjour!
Naturellement, je ne suis pas un homme de banque. Les produits financiers sont tres interessants
parsque ils sont une melange de risques grandes et de reputations grandes des banques.
If you add a rating agency to these products then you only need the sales rep and the "old man"....
German Sparkassen(thrift institutions(?)) are angry about the WestLB because they bought some WestLB-made products with some "Lehman" spice. These Sparkassen own 50% of the WestLB....
Seems that a weatherforcaster(+5 days) is more person reliable than a banker.
I believe there are lot of others things like evaluation, conduit...
which play an important roll in these affaires financieres.
Nothing for the meeting a the coffee machine in the morning....
Perhaps Baron meant: "We buy a BMW and you get some Lehman certs".
(I think that was a good idea in terms of dealing with trade deficits.)
Isn't the UK-way a method to unduely increase Mx (sorry, I am not a banker)?
Ok, this balloon is blasted - and the next one is ante portas!
What are the creative bankers doing right now?
Julius
Thanks Rich!
For the benefit of our fellow bloggers, I must point out that Gunner is being characteristically gracious and modest with his kind compliment regarding my humble and belated contribution to “the cause”.
As CWMOR noted back when Vern launched his ill-conceived vendetta (well, one of his many ill-conceived vendetta's- this time I am referring to the one that most affected the NG blog):
“All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”.
We should all be thankful indeed that we have a good man like Rich offering his support of the participants in, and principles represented, by this blog.
Thanks again from all of us!!
Julius :
Guten Abend !
yes , technically speaking the UK way is a way to inflate the monetary masses (typically called M3)
that is exactly what the Fed's did under Bush's orders ...
they started to stop publishing the M3 data (the thing silly peoples like me are looking out to see "how much is on markets" what is rare is expensive ; what is too common is worthless )
leading to an illusion of richness by all the cash that was falling from "the sky" ...
leading to bigger deficits (expected in 2009 : 1.000 Billions $ to be added to the overall debt )
leading to inflation of everything ... ( this is where EAC got easiness on its money , when all the rain of the skies fall on you , it isn't very difficult to fill-up a glass )
as for Germany ... the situation is gloomy , Germany was the 2nd country most "invested" in USA ...
if you mix it , with this nasty habit of top-managers taken the hand in the cookie's jar but swearing they didn't loose much (i believe we still do not know "HOW MUCH" has been lost ...) we face a potential delicate situation ...
for your question :"What are the creative bankers doing right now?"
i suppose they are looking for a major change in their career-plan ... ;-))
which is the disgusting part of the story ... I wouldn't let them walk-out that easily (on this , i am a real bastard !)
YES , billy ...
i think we should make-up new words meaning :
A puke = a Vern .
A rat = a Roel
a guy with a heart , an integrity big as his deeds = a Gunner !
Fred,
FADEC and EAC:
2003
- Hispano-Suiza and BAE Systems supply the FADEC for the Engine Alliance GP7200 engine on the A380. Hispano-Suiza selected by Rolls-Royce to develop and produce the power transmission system for the BR710 engine, powerplant of the Bombardier Global 5000 bizjet. The FADEC electronic engine control made by Hispano-Suiza Canada is chosen along with the Pratt & Whitney 610 for the Eclipse 500 twin-engine business jet. Hispano-Suiza control system selected for the TP400-D6 engine powering the A400M
(see: http://www.hispano-suiza-sa.com/spip.php?article49&var_recherche=FADEC&lang=en)
I copied and pasted the "complete year".
I do not believe that EAC performs any type of software changes of the FADEC systems which seems to reside on its own LRUs (similar to the Mustang), unless requested by PWC.
I do not know if the FADEC also includes the start of the engine ( press the button and the engine starts or is shut down in case of any errors). EAC is proud of this good feature.
Julius
P. S.: I cannot believe that the ba(n)kers give up to create a new M3-booster (or balloon).
DSB … Dreaded Soot Buildup !
First I must state that I am neither an engine designer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night … but I do have substantially more than a pedestrian education in turbojet flight test.
Since PWC built the engine and the FADEC, which ostensibly performs fine in the test chamber, but not “as installed”, it almost certainly is related to off-nominal pressures and flows in the aircraft at altitude.
To be overly simplistic, jet engines are all about pressures, velocities, and mass flow. You mess with one, and you mess with the others. Engines are designed with certain budgets, but start messing too much, and combustion efficiency is impacted more than forecast.
If the flows into, out of, and around the nacelles at power, at altitude, under load, are causing an issue (deposit buildup), then the entire orchestration must be tweaked. It isn’t as simple as a few lines of code in the FADEC.
First step is to fully characterize the phenomenon. Because the average pilot cannot eyeball the issue, the characterization would have to be completed through a structured flight test program (as in a bunch of very specific flights with engine analysis in between).
Any aircraft OEM with a sufficiently talented staff, and sufficient money, can accomplish that straight away.
And then there is Eclipse …
Hi Fred,
I heartily support your Vern-icular ( yikes- "make-up new meanings for words" !!!) regarding Gunner:
"a guy with a heart , an integrity big as his deeds = a Gunner !"
--------------------------------
Regarding the other two...
(From a post months ago):
"I think the ETIRC badgers must be licking their chops on this one (Eclipse)... Will a badger attack a skunk?"
Well, I don't see the skunk around any more...
:)
Zed,
Speculation, analysis and flight testing are not required. The engine is running close to limits above 35,000 feet. Extracting bleed air from the compressor section means less air is available for cooling and combustion. The engine runs 'rich' and combustion is incomplete, causing carbon build-up. Turbine blades, exhaust gas temperature sensors and FACECs don’t react kindly to this.
Above 35,000 feet, the engines can propel the aircraft and heat the cabin above 20 DegC, but not at the same time. Speculation should be reserved for how this occurred, now in several aircraft. The proposed amendment to the aircraft flight manual raises yet another question about design and engineering.
I guess it had to happen eventually:
"Mattel Inc. is cutting its workforce ... including about 70 positions at its Fisher-Price Inc. unit in East Aurora ... In September, Fisher-Price announced plans on a $20 million upgrade for computer and technology equipment at its East Aurora headquarters. The company had requested a package of tax incentives from the Erie County Industrial Development Agency but a Fisher-Price spokesperson said the bond application, which was tied to job retention, has been deferred."
Eclipse Aviation Critic NG renaming the little bird won't help Mattel, as their Barbie division will be eliminating jobs, as well.
Pay at the first window,
DI
Above 35,000 feet, the engines can propel the aircraft and heat the cabin above 20 DegC, but not at the same time. Speculation should be reserved for how this occurred, now in several aircraft.
My speculation is that the root cause can be traced to Eclipse doing kluge modifications to hit contract performance requirements irrespective of the long-term impact. This was on top of the kluge modifications done to the aircraft post-Williams.
Here's a question that I have given how Eclipse makes such a big deal about storing and analyzing every Eclipse owners' flight data. First is what data is downloaded - like with the airspeed disagree messages would the downloaded data show all the different readings Avio was generating for airspeed? Second, if the sensor readings are known to be bad, how can objective claims to be made about the data shown? I say this both in regards to Eclipse's statements about events as well as the FAA/NTSB use of the data. I don't think the data generated from Avio would be of the same quality as a black box and probably gives false information and so it should not automatically assumed to be correct when it is being reviewed.
Guten Morgen , julius ...
thanks for your explanation on Fadecs , i thought i had read something saying it was from Snecma ...
with Eclipse no one is too sure about which furnisher was ON the day a plane was assembled ...!
Sounds a bit like the Renault (french car maker) of the old "good" times : one model of car , multitude of versions with an unidentified numbers of sort of spare-parts ... ;-))
but i cannot resist the (vicious, you should know me by now!) pleasure of pointing out something out of your last post :
#I cannot believe that the ba(n)kers give up to create a new M3-booster (or balloon).#
well ... technically speaking Bankers are NOT the main culprit ...!
they ONLY use the tools and means OTHERS left for their use ...
in the present situation , i agree with you that TOO MUCH bubbles (balloons) were created ...
even if the FED'S isn't properly an administration (made by Woodrow Wilson as a consortium of the biggest private banks )it is still getting orders from the White-House ...
this is where "Bubbles-Greenspan" (with a S at the end , he made so many of them ...) has been really good at , KEEP the ILLUSION alive !
what illusion ? the one consisting of spreading so much cash around that most thought it was a richness effect of efficiency and superiority of economic model ...
where it lead a country to such a disproportionate loss of balance between exchanges , reality and perception of realities...
that will remain in history book as a major "ooppss" !
as you mentioned , they were buying BMW cars paying for it with "papers from Lehmann" ( some economists call it "the something for nothing effect")
which lead the said country to wake-up one morning only to understand that they are dangerously close to be totally ruined ...
so at you statement on "M-Booster"
YES , as long as "Normal" peoples will be fooled enough to believe politicians (who are the true responsible) : M-Booster will exist !
funnily enough , the US situation now is nothing new in world history ...
Lavoisier (executed in 1794 in Paris because he was a bit too down to the point !) said :" nothing ever get created out of nothing , it is only a transformation of something already existing "
Fred,
What was the third type??
FADEC,
A FADEC consists of hardware, software and mapping.
PWC will have contracted the Hardware and Software to H-S, but the control of the engine is largely in the mapping, which they control (Obviously it is released as a software revision, and the DO-178 certification work of any mapping change is likely performed by H-S).
The Cotrol of the fuel metering valve, bleed valves and VSV's etc are actuated by hardware, based on software control routines. The monitoring of sensors is performed by Hardware which provide the raw data to the software software for SRC, debouncing etc.
H-S provides a Fadec which can read sensors and control actuators.
PWC works to H-S to implement the mapping/control laws (Algorythms, and especially look up tables) which define when a bleed valve open, how much, how far the FMU overfuels during ecceleration etc.
From the point of view to engine operablity, it is irrelevant that H-S designed and built the FADEC, as all the control modes and mapping will come from PWC, based their own and Eclipse's requirements.
Sounds like they wanted more power at altitude, the FMU map was tweaked. The altered combustion flows and Px (see Zed's excellent post above) are causing smoke.
Smoke is a real killer in a modern combustion chamber. Normally modern CC's burn so clean that the ceramic Thermal barrier coating remains white to light tan. In addition, the lean mixture burns with little unburnt HC has low radiant emissivity.
They two factors, the high reflectivity of the TBC, and the low radiation greatly assists the liner cooling.
Once your combustion creates a rich area which fails to burn completely, the unburnt HC (smoke) radiates brightly in the flame, and make black soot deposits which then absorb the radiation.
Think of the Oxy-Acetelene torch as you vary between an oxidising and a rich flame.
These two effects can tie up to cause a rapid hardware deterioratation (Cracked and burned liner, NGV LE distress or burn through, Turbine LE distress etc. Doesn't exactly help the emissions either.
Fred said:
for your question :"What are the creative bankers doing right now?"
i suppose they are looking for a major change in their career-plan ... ;-))
which is the disgusting part of the story ... I wouldn't let them walk-out that easily (on this , i am a real bastard !)
I will buy the rope. I have said all along to get any confidence back people need to suffer the consequences of their actions.
Fred said: a guy with a heart , an integrity big as his deeds = a Gunner !
I think the US is in for a period of this being needed so our rights are not trampeled on.
The things that happened in ABQ and the FPJ Co. is just plain fraud and should be treated as such.
Fred said: "which lead the said country to wake-up one morning only to understand that they are dangerously close to be totally ruined ... "
I think we are there. Bush has gotten less than nothing for the trillions spent in Iraq, most major banks are not just worth zero (that would be an improvement!), they are billions and billions in the red, the federal deficit is unimaginably large, and we are looking at a steep recession with high unemployment, increased governmnet expenditures, and falling government revenues. If the government just tries to print money to get us out of the mess we will be overtaken by hyper-inflation. Fred, aside from executing the bankers (which I agree with!) what would you do?
airsafety :
what i would do ?
probably re-open the Gold window (bretton woods) ...
seek an agreement with international community on repaying the huge(very kind word)debt ...
enforce a bank-responsibility in lending (a bit the same way that law in France : if they lend you more than XX% of your income , and if you don't pay-back = tough life , the best way of not getting burnt is to avoid playing with fire ...) both with CEO and with Officers who accepted the loan ...
forbid all non-banking activities to all non-business banks (aka short-selling , inventive finances ,stocks others than their own ,etc...)
forbid credit-buying on anything for a period of 3 to 5 years (to oblige peoples to remember what is saving , with exceptions concerning Housing and cars )
forbid re-financing if not owner at 100% , free of anything ...
the most tricky part : tell my own peoples to burn their own bad-fat !
reduce military spending (USA is spending alone more all the others countries of world together , for a result which is absolutely worthless )
divide all benefits for elected peoples by XX times (how can you ask electors to be in saving-mode when you spend like mad ?)
make tuition and University FREE , but with a very tough selection not based first on money your parents can afford to spend
(kids are the future , they need to have the same chances !)
and above all other : TAKE a lesson from the situation !
(like making the "principle : Check and Balance" really working !make the ideal of the Nation fathers re-becoming true "taking care of our own affairs" and " a man should never have things , he won't repay in his lifetime")
there is ONLY TWO major flake in all this :
a politician saying such things will never get elected , and if he does = it will be to the sole benefit of the next one , who will get elected because he said that the first one was an ass ...
peoples never remember very long who saved them , but they always believe any sweet lies as soon as things get better !
footnote for understanding :
Bretton woods = the exchangeable meaning of $ against Gold !
Pres. Nixon closed the window , because at the time USA couldn't afford the Vietnam War ...
not a single western country (who signed the agreement) reacted because of the Communist threat ...
few years after cold-war :
Capitalists were afraid of Communism ...
Communists were afraid of Capitalists ...
communism collapsed !
Capitalism is in a big mess !
wouldn't it be a good time to think about "clever cooperation" ? and may be to stop pretending to be "so much better than the neighbor..." ? (all of us )
freedom :
thank for your explanation on technical ...
i do miss knowledge on aviation technical stuff !
(for me , up to not long ago , Fadecs was the name of the Motherboard controlling the engine , like a computer ...)
what i was wondering :
if HS is making such items for lots of others , why it seems to be creepy on EA500 ...
if EAC had it re-programmed to have 101% of "normal" thrust ... then it makes sens !
Fred,
Thanks for your answers. I agree with you on many things, especially the defense budget. We are spending two billion dollars a day on defense and yet have a severe, severe shortfall of army troops. All the while the generals fly around on their Gulfstream V business jets and promote one failed weapons system after another. Madness.
I had to post this quote from Avweb by the President of Epic:
"He said he was surprised when customers said they wanted a capable turboprop rather than a jet but the lower cost, better fuel economy and much lighter training requirements (no type rating required) have renewed interest in turboprops. The Escape is pressurized. seats up to six, has a 1,000-horsepower Honeywell TPE331-10 engine and will cruise at 350 knots. He expects to have a type conforming aircraft in a few months."
Remember how Ken Meyer, with absolutely no proof, said everyone demands jets?
Turboprop_pilot
Every now and then I have a thought.
No sniggers at the back of the class there, I know who you are....
Anyway, today's thought is about capacity. In the current market, how many new aircraft can be sold vis factory capacity to build.
I'm guessing here, but I'm feeling the market is down between 30% and 50%. In simple terms, that means between a third and a half of all factories will close.
I'm pretty sure the big established players will manage to hang on, with difficulty. Some of the newer players with flexible attitudes (Epic?) have a chance as well.
But those who have demonstrated failure, for an extended period, will go to the wall.
Sad, but inevitable. That's the way business works...
Shane
You got it wrong TP.
I said commercial PASSENGERS prefer jets, not propeller-driven planes. That's been surveyed; it's a known fact.
Pilots are a different story. Those who can't fly to ATP standards want prop planes; I never disputed that. It's a well-known phenomenon that has been observed over and over from turboprop owners.
Pilots that have already demonstrated the ability to fly to ATP standards, like those flying the Eclipse, have an entirely different reaction. After experiencing the climb capability, speed, quiet comfort, lack of vibration and ability to top nearly all weather, jet pilots I talk to have no interest in downgrading back to any propeller variant, turboprop or not. Which is quite understandable :)
Ken
airsafety :
not very difficult for me to answer ...
as you know , a part of myself is french ...
so it is quite easy to compare different system ...
i DO believe not a single system is better than the other !
to give you an idea :
In France , there is lots of problems , mainly because for too long a time , the state was involving itself into fields where it has NOTHING to do ... to the expenses of its real duties !
In USA (it seems to me) the Federal level did not care about anything else than chasing its own chimer , leaving (read capitulating) its duties to any ones who was keen on picking it up ... when Duties for such level is not to sort out who is friend and who is not !
i feel a normal situation would be for our respective nations to edict rules in common , and to literally WASTE anyone not complying !
it would be the end of "do what i say but don't do what i do myself !"
that would be a giant step toward respect and peace !
To say that H-S PW600 FADEC causes soot build up is like saying that I we are being spammed by DELL computors.
Ken:
I prefer a Bentley over my Mercedes, but so what? I won't pay for the difference.
There are many props being sold into commercial service these days - a resurgence if you will.
So, you may ask, why is an Epic customer choosing a prop over a jet? Why are many airlines buying props, for passenger service when there are directly competing jets?
The word prefer has no commercial meaning, except when it relates to value, all things considered.
A huge mistake EAC made was assuming people would pay X for a delat in value based on having a jet, instead of a prop for commercial air taxi service - this was flawed in my opinion.
For the short trips the EA-taxi-500 was capable of, a prop is a very real competitor, and wins on price by a huge margin.
So, in fact, people "prefer" props... in this market. Maybe they would like to have a jet - but the economics do not work, so they prefer props... as a buying decision.
Ken,
It is good that you are impressed by the Eclipse ‘quiet comfort’ and ‘lack of vibration’. These could be the best features if the company goes bust and the aircraft get parked.
The ATPs on the blog are happy to hear that props are for boats, not airplanes. May we expect jets to be provided by our new kinder, gentler government?
I said commercial PASSENGERS prefer jets, not propeller-driven planes. That's been surveyed; it's a known fact.
We saw how extensively DayJet surveyed and their supposedly known facts and look where they are today. Look at Eclipse's other (and now only) premiere commercial user Linear Air. Linear Air uses turboprops in addition to jets. Just because something might be prefered by commercial passengers, it doesn't mean that passengers will pay for it or that it will be economical for the commercial operator with the price passengers are willing to pay. As I've said on this board before, I drive a Ford Escort. If I was surveyed I'd say that I'd prefer to drive something else (which I would), but just because I said that, it doesn't mean I'm going to spend the money to buy something else.
AT asked, "why is an Epic customer choosing a prop over a jet?"
I doubt they really are. If you look at the large number of orders Epic announced for the Victory and Elite prior to losing the prototype in Tbilisi, they're sure singing a different song today than they were when they were pushing the jets!
I think Rick's a smart guy and knows that his turboprop designs could be certified a lot faster than either of his jets (BTW, remember how long ago he first promised the LT/Dynasty would be certified?). So of course he spins it into "this is what the customers are demanding."
But there is a real effect I see from some TBM and even King Air owners--they don't want to have to pass a tough checkride to move up to a jet. I don't blame 'em a bit, but they rationalize it by telling themselves how much better their plane is than a jet.
The perceived efficiency of a turboprop doesn't actually pan out in real life. Not against an ultra-efficient jet like the Eclipse. I've compared my fuel burns against those of a TBM-750 and C90 for several flights: I get there faster in quiet comfort, without vibration, and over the weather. Yet I burn the same or less fuel than the TBM. I burn way less fuel than the C90.
Those planes are slogging it out in weather in the 20's, with noise and vibration due to those funny looking spinning things. And of course the TBM driver has only got one of them! :)
Ken
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