First confirmed reports were from KBO-TV reproduced below.
Eclipse employees unpaid for last two weeks
The employees of Eclipse Aviation learned this morning that they won’t be receiving their paychecks for the last two weeks of labor. Employees at the Albuquerque manufacturing facility say that they were called into a meeting early this morning and told they would not be receiving paychecks. They were handed a sheet of paper with a toll-free phone number to call to see if they would be paid. No reason, apparently, was given for the action.
Employees leaving the early morning meeting expressed anger, frustration and uncertainty before speeding out of the facility's parking lot. Among the concerns they voiced: What would become of their vacation and what would become of their retirement investments.
Employees were told that they could come and go from the workplace throughout the day but many immediately emptied their desks and left. Some employees attending the meeting say that company officials told them that they stayed up into the early morning hours trying to find a way to assure the workers would be paid but were unable to do so.
Employees were told that they could come and go from the workplace throughout the day but many immediately emptied their desks and left. Some employees attending the meeting say that company officials told them that they stayed up into the early morning hours trying to find a way to assure the workers would be paid but were unable to do so.
A critical vendor to EAC has also confirmed to me they are 'pulling the plug'. The knock on effect of this could lead to an early grounding of the remaining FPJ's, and serious efforts will be required to get them flying again. This is a direct consequence of the high level of integration in the design.
A few interesting reactions to the news over the past few hours.:-
1. Peg is clearly relieved that the end has come. The following hit the inbox from a 'reliable source' today:-
"My partner works at a coffee outlet close to the EAC campus. He knows Peg, who was there this morning laughing up a storm, apparently without a care in the world. She was with a guy, but they were acting like teenagers. Public displays of affection and all that. Really weird for a 'professional' woman in her 40s..."
2. Several reputable journalists would like to talk to those of you affected by these events. If you are prepared to go on the record, send your name, a phone number and what relationship you had with EAC to eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
3. I've been asked the question, several times today, so I want to state that suppliers and customers are welcome to post to the blog or contact me at the above address should you want to establish contact with each other. I've already preformed this service a number of times in the past....
4. All is not lost. I suspect that we will see several operations opening up which will offer services, in a number of ways. The following quote, from William Feather and provided by an 'ex Eclipser' is worth remembering at this time.
"Something that has always puzzled me all my life is why, when I am in special need of help, the good deed is usually done by somebody on whom I have no claim."
Clearly the situation will evolve rapidly. I'll do my best to keep up with events over the next few days.
From: Scott Dannenberg
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 12:21PM
To: _All Enterprise
Subject: Payroll status update
Fellow Eclipsers,
We are extremely happy to report that funding has been obtained that will allow all past due payroll to be in your bank account no later than Tuesday, November 18, 2008. Money may be deposited in your account on Monday. Please continue to check your bank accounts.
For those that get physical checks, please call the payroll department on Monday to arrange to get your check.
We look forward to all of us returning to work on Monday, November 17.
Employee benefits including health and dental remain intact and available.
Management continues to work diligently on a longer term financial solution for our business.
We sincerely apologize for the distress this has caused you. Thank you for your continued support and loyalty.
Executive Management Team
This was forwarded to my in the past hour. Lets hope that it is genuine and the start of a 'good news' story. As I noted yesterday, I expect this situation to change, rapidly, over the next few days. Stay tuned.....
Shane
558 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 558 Newer› Newest»Albany might want to consider to $7 million lost:
Albany International Corp., a Menands-based producer of material used in papermaking, last week blamed a $3.3 million third-quarter loss by its Albany Engineered Composites unit largely on a temporary halt in orders from Eclipse, the unit's largest customer.
Eclipse owes Albany International $7.4 million, according to SEC filings.
"AEC believes the amount to be fully collectible and, accordingly, has not recorded a reserve for amounts due from Eclipse," the company said in the filing. "It is possible that future events may necessitate a full or partial write-off of that balance."
Eclipse Aviation runs into payroll problems
Funny thing about EAC finding new financing:
Its not at all impossible.
If someone looks only at what EAC has spent and what they have in the way of assets... a faciltiy here and there, some equipment... etc, and BELIEVE they are getting a good deal, buy buying this distressed company. This sort of thinking is not all that uncommon.
If they look at the other side, the product(s), the lack of sufficient orders, the company culture that led to delivering a DOA product, all the IUOs, and the "brand liability" and product liabilities, and there's no decision here.
I would be surprised if anyone in aerospace would dare take this mess on... even if it was basically given to them. Starting over from scratch would be simpler...
So, look for a banker type... probably a tech banker type... to place the next bet... maybe a gov't type buying into the false promise of jobs.
As Stan always said, just as things looked like they were getting boring... Vern (or Pieper, or Peg, or whoever over there...) will provide the next entertaining chapter.
I hope the employees all get paid, and I hope you all find new jobs, soon.
PS, I seem to remember a few years back, EAC missed payroll and the exec team all took drastic paycuts and stock options, to keep the thing alive... maybe 5 years ago? So, I don't think this is the first time paychecks bounced...
Anyone remember?
baron :
about the GadShaneFredDave act 2008 :
don't worry , the chapter you haven't read yet is :
anyone daring to be called Baron is to be shot on sight ...! ;-))
please come on , if you would have lost more than 10cts in the plot ...
you would probably one of the first one to call for revenge ...
on Airbus Dev. : please give us a break ...
YES , Airbus is getting subsides for its Dev. !
the difference with Boeing ?
we don't have to make , funds and train an improbable foe to organize a good old style war arrive to exactly the same point !
looking at your belly , claiming it is the nicest in your world , is only going to be true until you get out of the said world ...
too many parts of an Airbus are made in USA , not because it is better , only for opening the market and get benefit from cheap labor ...
never forget that in the last 10 years USA was swallowing 80%+ of worldwide savings ...
now time has come to pay back ... welcome into real world !
the best news about this , since money isn't going to flow anymore as it used to be , such financial Titanic as EAC are probably not going to emerge anymore ...
Only 2 options left for your times coming : either Hyper-inflation or deflation ...!
time will tell !
as for Eclipse , there is one answer which has not been provided yet :
EAC saved ... yes for the present time... but what for ? is there any NEW clients ???
peacock_farmer asked:
What is the point of this blog anyway?
First Principles can be found here - the first post from a couple of years ago on Stan's original version of the blog. It "just kind of growed" from there...
My bet is that all repairs of those first 250 airplanes will be done with rivets!
That is the intent, and ISTR that all of the FSW parts have the metal in place for conventional riveting to be accomplished - specifically for the sake of serviceability. Those FSW gantries don't fall out of trees, don'cha know. So, this observation is kind of a non-sequitur.
The common theme here is that airplane companies are no longer run by engineers and bean counters have no clue about the application of new technology to new products ... Bottom line, bean counters ... cannot and will not design the aircraft of the 21st century.
You may be confusing 'bean counters' with somebody else - the term is generally applied to accountants. And ( to oversimplify ) no product ever sees the light of day without the co-operation of engineers, bean counters, and the sales/marketing droids who will be expected to move the product. There's been a historical trend toward one 'group' of them of another to increase their "importance" in the process, but there's nothing new about that. What has perverted the process is the sort of financial animal who believes that money should be weighed rather than counted ( not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with weighable amounts of money - it just needs to be counted, first ), and believes that core competencies & competitive advantages can simply be found on the open market - that no investment should be required to obtain & maintain those competencies and advantages.
Or something like that.
You guys won't fix your industry until you fix our schools and the engineering profession in this country.
Amen, brother.
Welcome to the blog, PF. I came for the lawsuit, but stayed for the pie.
Would you like that a la mode?
DI
"EAC saved ... yes for the present time... but what for ? is there any NEW clients ???"
Actually, better question might be, "how many old clients would still BE clients if they really could just walk away and get their hard earned money back?"
These guys, for the most part, just got stuck in a bad position, so to speak.
I do not think amny folks would buy this plane today - no way.... they bought a "better" performing paper plane, at around 1/2 to 1/3todays price. And, there were few alternatives - today, there are a bunch.
'nuff said
> It is now a crime to fail in
> business. For every 100 jobs lost
> at least one executive must go to
> jail. If a company misses a
> milestone or uses money
> innefective, the Executive team
> must be stoned in the public
> square.
Baron,
Perhaps you could help me here: what exactly is the term for an incorporated entity that (1)takes two weeks of its employees' labor (2) does not pay them for that labor (3) does NOT file Chapter 11? I am having a hard time seeing how that is not some variety of fraud, whether criminal or civil, but I will defer to your clearly superior level of understanding.
sPh
Yes, I know that they claim to have found a source of funding for this weeks paychecks. I hope so. I will note that bankruptcy trustees prioritized current and back wages over all other claims and generally put high-six-figure executive pay at the very bottom of the list.
The way to look at EAC's potential new round (sceptical) is to ask yourself if you would invest in the current management team...
Otherwise, any new money coming into EAC is almost surely financial (versus strategic), insufficient for a complete necessary restructure, and probably way down the food chain in "smart money."
I couldn't see investing in EAC unless:
1. a major strategic indusrial took control (Textron, GD, Bomb, EMB,UTC, etc)
2. professional management completely replaced the entire current team
3. All liabilities were settled
4. The current fleet was either completely finished, or scrapped as "Beta version 1.0."
5. Production was set strictly to the GA pilot/owner market size (50-100 per year, max)
6. After-market was already installed through strategic's network (doesn't have to be built)
I suspect if there is any deal, it's like the one I described earlier concerning the Dornier 328 "rescue" and the slow, drawn out retirement of the project after all bets finally folded.
Yet another lawsuit against Eclipse filed yesterday. This time by AR Airways:
AR Airways v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
All these customers, vendors and depositors will be glad when Eclipse supposedly gets their $200 million so that they can all be paid off and the retrofits are done for free to make the aircraft meet the contractual specs.
airtaxi :
yes , i agree ...
but the sens of my question was a little more vicious than it seems at first glance ...
No NEW (and real hard cash backed) clients means that old ones CANNOT remain clients (their deposits gone in smoke long time ago... no more cash to honor delivery contract![would you as a new investor care about past screwed ones , sorry customers ...?])
or /and
no money either to pay them back , not even at the rate = 1$ deposit = 1$ back !
may be a few cents to the $ , but not much more ...
the "funny" thing , it can happen soon that only a few cents to $ is already a good offer !!
Gentlemen,
Now that you've held the wake before the patient died...
I thought you might like to see that we reprised our flight to Punta Mita, Mexico yesterday. 1041 nautical miles from Los Angeles in just over 3 hours at 39,000 feet. We were getting 360 knots true airspeed on 198 pounds per hour per side (that's more than 7 statute MPG!).
Eclipse panel near Los Mochis
3 hours to paradise put me in a condo overlooking the beach, sipping a margarita:
Punta Mita condo
So what?
Friends, the Eclipse is the most fuel-efficient, cost effective personal jet on the market. Its nearest competitor costs 40% more upfront and 40% more every mile you fly it. There isn't anything that can touch it on the market or even on the horizon.
Whatever happens, the design is fundamentally a very good one that fills an important niche for owner/operators and thrifty commercial operations alike. You just can't find a jet with this combination of good speed and great efficiency.
The design will go on; what is not yet crystal clear is whether current management will go on with it. That's the drama we're watching play out in Albuquerque, lessened ever so much by the news reports that long term financing has been arranged.
Ken
"The design will go on;"
So Ken, I see that you are stll whistling in the dark.
whistle in the dark: to attempt to summon up one's courage or optimism in a difficult situation
And yet another lawsuit filed against Eclipse:
Utah Desert Investments v Eclipse
So that makes two that were filed just on Friday. I presume that the amount sought is a typo.
Dave,
Its a safe bet that around 200 lawsuits will be filed before this thing is over.
It would not surprise me if Ken is eventually named a Defendant.
Kidding Ken... sip away. Enjoy.
Fly safe.
Ken said:
"The Eclipse is the most fuel-efficient, cost effective personal jet on the market. Its nearest competitor costs 40% more upfront and 40% more every mile you fly it. There isn't anything that can touch it on the market or even on the horizon."
"The design is fundamentally a very good one that fills an important niche for owner/operators and thrifty commercial operations alike."
"You just can't find a jet with this combination of good speed and great efficiency."
While I can't argue with your cost assumptions, the way you just described the E500 is about the most level-headed and mature description of the airplane that I've read by an enthusiast.
It is indeed a niche aircraft and it's a shame that EAC couldn't have been as level-headed about the real market for the craft.
While I would not select an E500 due to cabin size and many other reasons (and I might disagree on up-front versus total ownership cost, along with risk-adjusted cost), your description is just the kind that sould be recommended for any future marketing literature/testimony for those buyers considering a VLJ; it comes across as honest and accurate (disagreements among owner/operators notwithstanding). Moreover, "Personal Jet" is probably a much better and more accurate description of the plane and the reasons someone would buy it.
Too bad RP was not as clear and mature about his judgment concerning the real market; it would have helped EAC with a fresh start and more credibility.
Regards.
While I can't argue with your cost assumptions
I can. Eclipse has yet to deliver one complete aircraft and what if any cost that will be to get the aircraft completed to contractual specifications remains unknown. Also what is unknown is what if any price increases there will be if production does continue. Eclipse has yet to break even and has continually raised prices. What remains to be seen is what price Eclipse would have to charge for the number of units per year they can sustainably sell and produce. Also who knows what will happen with maintenance costs and insurance, which that is something else Ken can't guarantee. Having subsidized incomplete aircraft for millionaires can't last forever.
"Thrifty operators..."
I thought they offered exclusively Chrysler products.
Truth be told, operators looking to compete on price for the realistic short taxi flight will not choose this plane... for many, many reasons.
Enjoy Ken... keep sipping.
Fly safe
Truth be told, operators looking to compete on price for the realistic short taxi flight will not choose this plane... for many, many reasons.
I also wonder how thrifty it is having your commercial aircraft grounded due to either parts shortages or lack of meeting to spec for commercial operations. Rather than being thrifty, that seems like being penny wise and pound foolish.
ATM/Dave:
Good points; what I meant by "can't argue" is that I haven't scoured the manuals and operated the plane so I don't have any primary data on user costs (which vary).
Let me re-phrase somewhat my note to "Ken" which is that, if anything good might be said about the E500, and if one were to be honest about its intended market, he pretty much nailed it and in a fair-minded way: it's strictly a personal jet for a niche audience. Just how many ways you can cut/segement this market is subject to debate (ATM, I suspect you're right; a charter/commercial operator has many other attractive options).
At any rate, I found his owner's testimony to be about the most honest thing said about the craft for those still willing to consider it (big debate). And again, too bad that RP et al were not as straight about the real market.
As for the plane itself, in my professional judgment as a +10K hour ATP, I would not select it; even if the jet could pass my quality/integrity concerns, Dave's point about unknown costs/support is the next biggest factor.
Unless a major industrial strategic player steps up, the craft will not likely ever gain a normal life in the market except as a hobby/enthusiast hangar toy.
fred,
bonne nuit,
there is another really simple and import question:
When will the customer receive his training and a/c? Some people are waiting quite a long time.
If the customer orders now, when will EAC deliver training and a/c: 2010, 2011, ان شاء الله (inschallah)?
Currently RP has proven that EAC is able to reduce the production rate and the suppliers are not amused!
Is EAC capable to increase the production rate of aircrafts closer to the promises (more suppliers!)?
How many employees are not amused, are afraid that the next pay roll stunt will hit them, and prefer to change the employer?
I am sure there will be another pay roll stunt!
Julius
P.S.: Any news about the frankenstein jet and the situation at Uly (ULWW) airport?
If I was Ken I would be heading south also. Without FIKI cert. for his a/c his only choice is to uncollar those breakers if you get in trouble. Wonder if he has had to do that yet. Those fuel numbers he gave are correct. At 6K and 250KT it is 295lb. per side.
DB,
Ken has been sipping, for sure. There was a time where he would insist even his wife had developed a "new business model" for the VLJs/E500 and we'd all be surprised at how the demand would soar (IIRC)...
He has mellowed a bit, and has refrained from defendng the company and its antics for quite some time.
BUT, he has been a terrific source for operating information - the guy is a real laser beam for details... really tiny ones, too - imagine that, an eye surgeon!
My points have always been related to air taxi, outlandish claims of order boooks and deposits, and bogus business plans for the jet. Ken is smart enough to realize that without a hge (new) market, there is no EA-50...
Unless the build a lot every year, the price baloons (if it isn't already a money loser at even 500 a year for $2M or more a pop) and the market shrinks and shrinks.
Without Dayjet, there really was never an EA-50 - there was a heavily subsidized plane for a few rich guys, many of whom placed more than one deposit... and a trumed up order book by a few "connected" air taxi starts - ETRICK and Dayjet. Between these two cohorts, they accounted for around 1700 orders - I hate calling them orders. Lets now call them Norders - "not orders".
I bet 80% or more of the individual orders were placed back before 2004/2005. MAny were placed before 2002, and a lot of them sold their positions right off the bat. During this time of "heavy demand" perhaps 500 planes were really sold to perhaps 400 individuals. There were no alternatives, and the price was $1M or so.
Today - the only clients are those who got stuck, for the most part... and Ken, who is just perfectly happy with his decision and continues to support EAC.
Kudos, the plane might be great for him, and he feels great getting a deal. He paid very little.
That was probably the niche - guys looking for a deal, on a small high tech jet, that was around $1M out of pocket - converting from a prop...
The niche is gone, because that plane is gone. He likes to think there's amarket of Ken's... but the product isn't even available anymore... and never will be - the price is twice what he paid.
Maybe a niche of Ken's at $1.2M???
Small niche.
Ken,
looks great at the very first glance!
But - yes always this stupid "but" -
at which speed did you fly M.606 or M.634? Great, your a/c was climbing and a little bit slipping!
Ken, you definitely should contact EAC because of the different indicated speeds.
Enjoy you flights and stay in the sun!
Be careful!
Julius
Ken
Please STFU!
I am pleased that you have plenty of money, and spend your retirement between home, Mexico, Sedona, or where ever.
Plus, your story here and on the E5C site is the same drone. We got it. In the future please simply reference the 2.15 million times you have told us how cheap and efficient it is.
Many of us are loosing our retirement and family security because your buddies in ABQ are neither honorable or ethical.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, I have committed to pay all current and former employees 100% of what we owe them. If I make payments equal to my mortgage, it would take me 24.5 years to pay them back just the principal.
So, enjoy your airplane. While at altitude, look around the cockpit and cabin and imagine all the failed companies, people out of work, and families in crisis so that you can enjoy your airplane.
We assume you have opinions about the FPJ, but until you walk in our shoes, please STFU!
Gad,
I'll do what I can. And I will miss Hillerman. He was one of my favorites.
Sources indicate that the state/city hasn't provided the short term financing to meet payroll. [At least that is what's coming from the gov. types.] Rumor has it that the short-term financing to meet payroll came from the "home office." I'm not sure if this means ETIRC, RP, A. Mann??
If someone is pulling out of their pocket to meet this payroll...it does seem that there may be further financing as speculated here.
Snippet Time
1. One of the more outlandish rumors doing the rounds is that The Wedge himself is involved in putting a bid together.
Heaven forbid....
2. Another has Roel 'gone by Christmas' in a deal involving 'new investors'. As this one is supposed to be brokered by UBS, I'm a bit skeptical.
3. As is evident on the blog, the real damage to any attempted restart at EAC is already done. Smaller vendors, often of critical sub systems, are already too far gone to be revived. Behind the scenes I've been told, since early October, that with no money coming from their biggest (or sometimes only) customer these smaller companies are simply closing down.
4. The common thread running through all of the 'rescue' efforts I'm hearing about is the dreaded 'B' word.
Yes, bankruptcy, as in Chapter 11 (most 'votes') or straight to Chapter 7.
Hopefully things will work out for all involved. And, in the long saga that is Eclipse Aviation Corporation, nothing surprises me any more.
Shane
The one thing I can't figure out is where Governor Bill stands in all of this. We know he's been up to the windy city for a chat with his new best friend, Barack.
I wonder if he mentioned EAC while he was there?
Mind you, the Obama people are pretty web savvy, so you'd imagine they would find 'us'. Before they make any appointment which might, ahem, embarrass the President Elect.
Oh, and a belated congratulations to all you Americans, for the manner in which the result was greeted by all sections of the United States.
Even the 'losers', it seems, looked strangely like winners...
Shane
1. One of the more outlandish rumors doing the rounds is that The Wedge himself is involved in putting a bid together.
Heaven forbid....
2. Another has Roel 'gone by Christmas' in a deal involving 'new investors'. As this one is supposed to be brokered by UBS, I'm a bit skeptical.
I don't care who is doing the deal, but if they think a deal can be done without BK and without paying all the creditors off, it is simply not going to work except to show that there is at least one greater fool than Roel.
3. As is evident on the blog, the real damage to any attempted restart at EAC is already done. Smaller vendors, often of critical sub systems, are already too far gone to be revived. Behind the scenes I've been told, since early October, that with no money coming from their biggest (or sometimes only) customer these smaller companies are simply closing down.
This is a problem that I've seen for a long time both in regards to Eclipse's own order book as well as who Eclipse said they did business with. I don't have the exact lenght, but I remember Vern complaining about how he was going to supposedly triple the business volume for a small company but they didn't give him enough of a quantity discount. Things become very risky when you have only one or two customers that represent the bulk of your business. I believe the rule of thumb generally speaking is to have no customer represent more than 10% of your business (there are exceptions of course, but this is just broadly speaking). Not only have we seen this with the loss of DayJet on Eclipse but this is also happening to companies that we don't see where Eclipse's planned orders represented a very large portion of their business.
The fact that Vern bad mouthed the industry, and basically stated he was off to greener pastures.... in another industry, just last week in Florida...
leads me to think he's probably trying as hard as he can to get back in.
- I hope so, it would be a shame to lose such a colorful character in this tremendous fictional story - the one where there's a $1M high tech twin jet that everybody wants... losing the main protagonist would be such a shame at this point. Afterall, we haven't gotten to the point where he wakes up and becomes enlightened - you know, the journey from young to old, or innocence to experience...
It would be a shame for us to lose Vern before this turn in the main plot line... heck, we may even see Ed again...
In 1971 Boeing laid off thousands of aerospace engineers and canceled the SST. That was the year I graduated from high school and started college. Even though the aerospace industry was a disaster I majored in aerospace engineering that's how bored I was with the world.
Now 37 years later I have to remind myself that I knew better in 1971. If you guys managed to make a buck in aerospace great, if you suffered remember this industry has always sucked and the world is still boring.
Flying Goat,
Since you graduated from high school, I have flown 15,000 hours in the glass cockpits of the MD-80 (most fun), many models of the B-757, B-767, and B-777 without ever having a serious malfunction. Boring was good, thanks to some amazing aerospace engineering improvements in all aircraft systems.
I hope you had something to do with that.
A LOT better than the military aircraft of the 60's vintage I first flew, and my first Boeing "studebaker" - B-727.
AHhh the B757! I was a young member of the 757 aerodynamics configurations staff. When I arrived in 1979 the airplane still had a T-tail like the 727 it was going to replace.
I remember riding the wind tunnel at Mach .80 there was a window in the top of the test section and you could see the oil flows move and see the shock waves form better than the people who waited for the tunnel to stop, IF you were willing to ride!
It was like riding on top of a locomotive going full speed ahead. It was not boring. I guess in these moments of dispair we should all remember our great moments in aerospace.
Sphealey said... Baron,
Perhaps you could help me here: what exactly is the term for an incorporated entity that (1)takes two weeks of its employees' labor (2) does not pay them for that labor (3) does NOT file Chapter 11? I am having a hard time seeing how that is not some variety of fraud
Sphealey, welcome to the blog. From my undertanding (an I can be way off) of the matter, Eclipse's payroll has been funded period by period, just in time. Apparently the money was transfered to the bank in time, but the bank blocked the payments because other covenants were missed.
Simple as that. No fraud, no crime. As a matter of fact, the only thing that puzzles me, is why Elcipse is keeping 800 people on the payroll to build 1 jet/week.
They trully must believe new and substantial funding will come along and don't want to loose the emplyees.
If it were me, I'd have brought Eclipse down to about 75-150 employees by now.
Oh, but wait. After the fact, if it does not work out, it is a crime. The management should be shot on sight.
Ken, great flight.
True the EA500 has by far the lowest fuel burn of any twin trubine on the market today.
But I'd stop short of calling the EA500 the lowest operating cost palne out there.
Simply because of 4 unknowns:
1 - Depreciation (could be much higher than the Mustang/Phenom)
2 - Maintenance (ditto if Eclipse fails and voids the warranty).
3 - Financing - because of uncertainty on hull value, you are likely to pay much higher lease/fiannce rates with much lower calculated residuals and a much higher required up-front payment.
4 - Insurance - it is looking good so far, but too early to tell.
So Ken, for you and the early $1M +- buyers depreciation is not a major issue, but if you were to buy one today for $2.15M with a risk of it being worth $1M in 3 months, that would bump your operating costs to about 10x to 15x higher than the Mustang.
If I were a charter company and for some reason had a hard on to buy new and to buy VLJs, I'd put all my deposits on the Phenom 300.
A year from now, when Eclipse 2.0 is up and established, things could be different.
Baron said Eclipse is delivering 1 aircraft a week. Are they even doing that?
If EAC currently has 800+ people on the payroll,somebody please tell me where the other 700 work. It sure as heck ain't near Clark Carr Loop. I've been parking there for 20 years, and counting cars just ain't that hard. I've been to most of the satellite buildings, and the only ones showing any activity are the service center and headquarters. Vehicle counts since August have remained pretty much unchanged, save for a small decline at HQ over the past month.
#A year from now, when Eclipse 2.0 is up and established, things could be different.#
yes , may be ...
but the same question remain without a credible answer : Who is going to buy ?
Euroland is going to be in Recession to least for 12 to 18 months ... (too late to keep a EAC 2.0 alive ! places has already been taken by competitors who could deliver a Finished,Certified,Serviced , Reliable aircraft ...)
USA has to care and serve its deficits , with a reduced and agreed access to printing-money 24/24 & 7/7 , with P.Wolcker at the stick , i would bet that credit-overspending is dead for the next 4 to 8 years ...
Russians are doing things in ULWW like it would never be a reality (if you believe the Prime-Minister services ...)bonjour Julius ! warka tet kelem lé bé arabia ?
what is left ?
Australia ? EAC is already in trouble there ...
and due to the size of country and the numbers of inhabitants , unless Kangaroos get a pilot license ...!
New-Zealand ? too small !
South America ? too poor or already very well provided ...
Africa ? with what money ?
Petro-monarchy ? much too cheap for them ...
which leads to problem N°2 :
if no mass production : at what price should it be sold to make firm even ? (profits are even after ...!) What about ROI ?
finally now the FPJ cannot be attractive because it is unfinished , unreliable but more or less inexpensive ...
tomorrow the problem might be i cannot sell because finished , more or less reliable BUT too expensive !
so what is the point of "wasting again"some $$ in this finances nightmare ?
As mentioned previously here, the one instance in which directors and officers of a corporation may be held personally liable for corporate obligations is in wages due to employees. In addition, few investors, directors or officers would like to be associated with stiffing employees. So while payment of EAC employees for their work may be a positive sign that there is "more to come", it may also be a "last gasp" financial injection to avoid being forced to do the same or to avoid a lifetime of guilt or sullied reputation.
BAron,
IF what you say about the payroll is true, why didn't EAC just say this...
"Dear employees:
We appreciate your continued dedication and support. The money for payroll is in the bank, yet we face an issue regarding some covenants, which we are very confident will be resolved in a day or so. We have customers to support, and we need to get that plane out the door this month, and would appreciate your continued work in that regard. If you decide to remain home for the next few days please communicate by telephone (800)123-4567 on Monday or Tuesday and tell you when to pick up your paycheck and when to come back to work.
Sincerely,
............... "
There are stories about Vern bidding for the company, other investors, Roel making good... etc... and the "it was just covenants" story...
A lot material for this chapter...
Perhaps BlackTulip is hard at work?
PS., Baron: thanks for straightening out the Ken issue... he's heard it so many time, I am sure he is deaf to it all... all things considered, no one should seriously consider buying this plane - unless its just an emotional choice... you cannot rationalize it froma risk/economic perspective, anymore.
#unless its just an emotional choice... you cannot rationalize it froma risk/economic perspective, anymore. #
you're being so right ...!
anyone having an atom of logic should run away !
as for an EAC 2.0 , it would be too easy to say " don't complain you were not warned by their history ...!"
i cannot refrain from seeing the "good excuses" ...!
the bank had the money , but decided to keep it for any reason ...
sounds like "your pay check lacks XX overtime hours ?? surely the computer has a bug ..."
(computer are so clever that they know to count only up to 1 ! so mistakes are, may be, only the result of what is asked ... )
Eclipse: AOPA bad, MEBA good:
Eclipse 500 makes MEBA debut
Look at these companies to see if they actually could pay for the 120 unit order even if they wanted to. MyJet Turkey and Palm Aviation don't come across as companies that have access to $250 million. Keep in mind that MyJet is an offshoot of ETIRC and if ETIRC had $250 million, they wouldn't say Eclipse needed $250 million to continue to be a going concern.
baron95,
A year from now, when Eclipse 2.0 is up and established, things could be different.
no - you already assume that there will be an Eclipse 2.0, which will be established!
I prefer "if" instead of "when" etc. - and then we are back in the late 90s... Just Sam's dream!
Julius
Julius wrote, "looks great at the very first glance!
But - yes always this stupid "but" -
at which speed did you fly M.606 or M.634? ...you definitely should contact EAC because of the different indicated speeds."
Julius, the airspeed indicators are working precisely as designed. The correct speed was 0.634M.
There is good material on this blog, but as you've just illustrated, too often "facts" are pronounced that are just plain wrong.
Cheers!
Ken
James Fallows' website (http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/ and the author of "Free Flight" and fan of on-demand airtaxi and Eclipse) discusses Eclipse problems and has a link to Joe Monahan's blog http://joemonahansnewmexico.blogspot.com/
Here's a quote that mentions us:
"That lack of scrutiny on all levels--city, state and media--a lone Web site bravely and consistently predicted the Eclipse demise from the beginning--reveals the institutional weaknesses that have kept the economy here "chugging along" but susceptible to painful setbacks. Being starstruck is fine for Saturday night at the multiplex, but in the real world it has a price. Now the price will be paid by the up to 1,400 Eclipse employees (plus the 500 laid off in August) impacted by this avoidable failure of public policy."
Turboprop_pilot
A Boy Named Sue wrote, "Ken
Please STFU!
...
Many of us are loosing our retirement and family security because your buddies in ABQ are neither honorable or ethical."
And you want me to do what, send flowers to your banker? I shouldn't enjoy my plane because you made a bad business deal with Eclipse?
Tough luck. Business is a rough and tumble game; welcome to the real world. I'm sorry for you, but not a whole lot. I feel a lot more sorry for the employees in Albuquerque who are riding this roller coaster of daily ups and downs.
I can't do anything about the management. If I could, I wouldn't. The ones I've met are decent people trying very hard to make this all work out in tough times and after many unfair setbacks.
But that wasn't my point at all. You missed my point. My point is this: Precisely because the plane is a good design that is fast, comfortable, quiet and very efficient, it will live on even if the names on management's doors wind up changing (which right now looks less and less likely).
But if they do change, maybe the new company will give you a contract :)
Anyway, thanks for making your contribution to my very nice plane. I appreciate it. What part did you make, anyway?
Ken
Ken are you ever going to fess up about what happened with Shari's Eclipse that you used to brag about so much?
A comment or two, about the motivation of people who build airplanes, those who own them, and those who fly them:
“Vicarious” pleasure, comes to mind . . . the mechanic who takes pleasure in maintaining an aircraft, so that a pilot can safely go into the skies, battling against the “enemy”, and return safely . . . the mechanic cannot take part, directly, nor gain the glory of becoming an “Ace” . . . but in his mind, he becomes a “part” of the battle, in a real sense.
“Vicarious” is also in the mind of the technician, or worker at the “plant”, putting rivets in place, or routing the wiring, or hooking up the control linkage, or managing folks under him . . . knowing that some person of “wealth” will fly safely across the world, among the clouds, and come safely home.
Now we learn through comments, that the employee, who at best can only hope or wish for a paycheck, is little more than someone who wasn’t “savvy” enough to make a better business decision, yet wasn’t “low enough” on the ladder, to receive pity from those lofty folks who fly in the works of their labor.
There’s something wrong with this picture.
“Vicarious suffering” is also a thought, that might cross the minds of those who benefit from the labors of others . . . and maybe not!
gadfly
12 years and no finished planes:
- $1Billion
500 called progess payments and 250partially finished plane delivered:
- $450 million
Ken's dismissal of this debacle as "unfair setbacks"
- Priceless
I can't even find words to express how pathetic this characterization is. This company has had every chance to do the right thing all along - its a poor product for any large market refecting a failed business plan.. calling any of the realities associated with this GIANT FAILURE "unfair setbacks" is probably the biggest mischaracterization, yet.
Ken, stick to the speed and "low" direct operating cost. Otherwise, you have no leg to stand on. Frankly, those of us who have been observing this mess for a long time, resent your mischaracterizations .
CW is asking the right question, since you corrected me when I remembered someone here stating you got your deposit back, after putting Shari's deposit up for sale... what happend? Is this all about trying to get some money for the deposit? Or are you just praying for continued support from EAC, and no imloding ea-50 value due to their failure?
Do tell...
Ken,
cheers, so dark "Eclipses are darkening the sky"? - anyhow (here it is dark)!
Julius, the airspeed indicators are working precisely as designed. The correct speed was 0.634M.
I am still astonished that you accept different indicated speeds. That's not state of the art! You know the reasons! You paid quite a bit for this fpj.
In case emergency and a short landing strip it's not pleasure to fly with wrong indicated speeds keeping in mind that the brakes wouldn't help.
Is EASA fond of different indicated air speeds?
¡Mucha suerte!
Julius
Julius, yes; EASA personnel liked the airspeed layout when they flew the plane in Albuquerque recently.
You see, they read the manual. As a result, they know what they're talking about, and you don't.
RTFM. I have no time to teach remedial groundschool to a guy who attacks without knowing the fundamentals of the plane. And then does it again even after his goof was pointed out to him the first time.
Ken
so, Ken has time to read, and anwser (address, anyways, while saying he has no time...) some questions here...
I once offered a wager, because he insisted I was wrong regarding Dayjets orders...
He went limp.... no wager, just a bunch of nasty posts..
So, Ken... address the other issues - how is Shari's plane coming?
Should we type in larger font, so you can see it better? Or did you bail, or planning to bail... do tell????
Mr. Die hard.
What is still missing is any explanation of how Eclipse is going to be a sustainable business. Per Roel at the $2.15 million price Eclipse would still have to produce and sell around 1.7 units per day just with the ABQ factory let alone produce and sell way more that when/if the Russian factory goes online. This has nothing to do with the economy as even when the Eclipse 500 was under $1 million they still had to cook the order book with Nimbus and then followed immediately thereafter by DayJet and now Eclipse's CEO is himself cooking the order book through ETIRC. You can throw money continually at Eclipse, but unless you can produce and sell hundreds per year or find a price/volume where Eclipse doesn't lose money, it is just good money after bad. All Roel has done since he has taken over was doubled down from Vern in saying how many units Eclipse/ETIRC was going to produce and sell each year. No surprise in how just as how Vern tried to wow people with tales of massive volume of production and sales, he repeatedly asked for money and repeatedly said it would be his last time only to then ask for more later. Roel is doing the same thing as Vern.
Fred,
bonne nuit!
warka tet kelem lé bé arabia ?
a, assif!
(I hope it means "no, sorry")
inshallah is also know in Germany -but I think most times in the wrong way!
Somehow EAC reminds me at a party!
Unfortunately the the ligths are going to be switched off - it's all over now.
Julius
P. S.: Did the wedge ever understand what he was doing resp. trying to do.
AT asks, "how is Shari's plane coming?"
It is fine; we just flew it to Mexico. Perhaps you missed my message on that. Did you need me to post the details again? OK, here you go:
1041 nautical miles from Los Angeles in just over 3 hours at 39,000 feet. We were getting 360 knots true airspeed on 198 pounds per hour per side (that's more than 7 statute MPG!).
Eclipse panel near Los Mochis
3 hours to paradise put me in a condo overlooking the beach, sipping a margarita:
Punta Mita condo
:)
Ken
Ken,
You see, they read the manual. As a result, they know what they're talking about, and you don't.
come on - more profile - your are flying a FAA cert plane!
You care about EASA cert? Why?
You mean the M.634 is a little bit too high and M.606 is a little bit too low - then it's in the range!
Oh, sorry, you want to sale your FPJ into the EASA region!
Julius
Ken is remarkably calm for someone who knows his aircraft, along with the rest of the fleet, will for all practical purposes be AOG later this week.
But then, that was always 'our' Ken. He even described himself as the Cardinal (of the Faithful) in his 'headline post' here some months ago.
Faith is a wonderful thing, and a great comfort in times of trouble.
But faith won't keep you flying Ken. You know it, and I know it.
And we both know why.
Just make sure your FPJ(s) are at a friendly airport before my birthday....
Shane
PS My birthday is this coming Friday.
And before you ask.
I'm over 21 and under 65....
Shane
Ken, what we have here is failure to communicate....
We clearly asked about the second FPJ position you bragged about last year.
Are you and Shari the proud owners of two incomplete preemie jets or just one?
If only one, do you still have the position?
Has the progress payment been called?
Have you paid it?
Did you sell the position?
Did you demand and perhaps receive a refund instead?
Did you demand a refund and get told to go pound sand like so many other customers, vendors and employees?
If those questions are too tough let me know and I will try to simplify them.
Happy Birthday Shane.
"It matters not the age of the clock as long as the pendulum keeps swinging."
It is like the eventual movie....we cut to Baghdad Ken speaking. in the background we see...creaking doors of an empty factory ...lawyers lining up for the bankruptcy case...workers leaving the factory without getting paid. Ken steps up to the podium.
Everything is great. I just flew to Mexico with my wife and had a great time. What a view from the hotel!
Cut to Coldwet - but Ken, they are hauling the tooling out the back door in cartons market Russia on them. With no support you might end up with an expensive lawn ornament!
Back to Ken...did I mention the view from the hotel or all the fun I am having? Who cares about tools or factory support, or the poor suckers who put up their money and got nothing for it. Do you realize how little fuel this thing burns. Heck I spend more money on tires then gas! Besides do you realize if they do ground the fleet that I will save a fortune on gas, insurance and maintenance. Heck a grounded Eclipse will cost 1/1000 of what a flying Mustang costs...you guys just don't get it!
Shane, I'll bet you a pitcher of your favorite brew that I'm still flying my Eclipse when your birthday rolls around.
And...
If I'm flying, you're crying :)
Ken
Ken I'll make it easier for you, you can answer the questions using one of your alternate identities if you want, just blink three times if you understand the idea.
Do you still have some skin in the game that might cause you to paint an unrealistically positive picture until you sell that albatross, err I mean 2nd position?
YOU are the one who brought it up, ad nauseum, as a show of your confidence and to demonstrate your bonafides as a 'wealthy' young man who actually considered a Mustang before placing the 2nd deposit.
We all remember and it is the lowest form of intellectual dishonesty for you to carry on without making your situation clear.
Ken,
you have become a complete clown?
A stroll down memory lane ...
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://eclipseaviation.com
guys ...
be a bit kinder to Kenny ...
not that easy to find out how much a fool you have been taken by the the ones you tried to protect ...!
since he is back , the blog seems to be more lively , if not more balanced ... (as it is no point ask a blind if he would like to see , don't ask Kenny to tell you about his toy !)
there is STILL one thing which make me laugh :
the Factory might be saved ...
the workers might get paid ...
the firm might be saved ...
WOOAAWW , what an exploit ...!so great to last a little longer ...
the ULTIMATE question : WHAT FOR ?
this is capitalistic market economy : things are supposed to be done ONLY if there is a point and a profit to do so ...
apart trying to deliver the depositors plane-less by now (but paid already long , very long , too long time ago)
WHERE ARE the NEW (and real) CUSTOMERS ???
now i see EASA as another Blunder : instead of burning hips of cash trying to get something which is probably going to be useless (even if they get it) as a potential market ...
they should concentrate on paying the ones who remain behind ...
would be a bit better than trying to content the screwed from yesterday with the deposit of tomorrow dreamers ... (if there is any foolish enough to give more than 10 cents to a firm with such history ...)
to me , it is more a question of misplaced pride , now ...
Gruß Gott, Julius ...
ok , Inshallah , in the text means "to the grace of God" or "at God's will" ...
not to be confused with "Mektoub" ("this is destiny" or "it was written")
unfortunately , i am sorry to inform you that NO in arabic is "LA" (pronounce it french way)
very close to Hebrew " LO " (same meaning) , something which always made me smile Arabic being close to Hebrew ...
if only they knew ...!!! ;-))
so to come back to Fpj :
when European Die-Hard(if any of this weird specie is not extinct , yet !) who bought the toy will get it together with a type-rating and service (without having to cross "half the world" ...)
answer for marketing Dept : "Insh'allah !"
what the BK judge will say when complaining about delays :
"Mektoub !"
which at this times will be roughly translated as "how could you be so stupid ??!!"
;-))
Ken,
Please take you plane in to have the ADC's checked. While it may be (just) a pitot position error issue, (only!) affecting airspeed, this is an RVSM approved A/C, and you owe it to the rest of those flying in the 30's to ensure you have accurate air data.
Just after the Congressional hearings, where the Pegster trashed the FAA worker-bees as hopelessly unqualified and inexperienced, she issued a written statement saying that Eclipse had "a clear line of sight agreement with EASA for full certification in 60 days". Today is the day! It is nearing lunchtime in Euroland as I type and no word as yet, but no doubt full EASA certification will be issued later today! Or maybe not.
You know lately it has been kinda tough to read this blog because my douche translator is broken.
eclipserobotiv :
it must be really painful for you ...
the Fpj desperately needs foreign lands and foreigners for any hopes of remaining alive ...
do you think they will be kind enough to accept to give you their money and on top of it speak your language ???
don't bet too much on this !
repeat after me : " ya nié gavariou pa rusky ! ya tolkia dourak ! " ;-))
airsafety : this is a "cut and paste" from EASA file on Non E.U. aircraft gone thru Cert. process successfully ...
as you can see the list jumps from DeHavilland to Fairchild ...
Embraer is mentioned
Eclipse SHOULD be there if peg wouldn't have lied (again?)
Small Aeroplane
DeHavilland Aircraft Co. LTD ( Viking Air Limited) Canada
Family
DHC-6
Model
DHC-6 Series 310
EMBRAER Brazil
Family
ERJ135/145
Model
EMB-110
FAIRCHILD SWEARINGEN CORP. USA
Family
SWEARINGEN
Model
SA 226-AT
SA 226-T
SA 226-T(B)
SA 226-TC
SA 227-AC
SA 227-AT
SA 227-BC
SA 227-DC
SA 227-TT
SA 26-AT
SA 26-T
FUJI HEAVY INDUSTRIES LTD. Japan
Family
FUJI FA200
Model
FA200-160
unless they work secretly , the special conditions haven't been removed yet ...
i had a look at E.U. aircraft , to the despair of "some" who were waiting to say "Etirc IS E.U.'s"
what did you expect ? ... ;-))
and to illustrate why it is a completely misplaced pride for EAC to try to get EASA , if they don't have a Rock Solid order book for Euroland ... and are already in D.S. concerning money :
(an another cut & paste from EASA files)
Article 6
Without prejudice to Article 4, where a certification task is
conducted, fully or in part, outside the territories of the
Member States, the fee invoiced to the applicant shall include
the corresponding travel costs outside those territories,
according to the formula:
d=f+v
where:
d = fee due
f = fee corresponding to the task carried out, as set out in
the Annex
v = additional travel costs, at real cost
The additional travel costs invoiced to the applicant shall
include the time spent by experts in the means of transport
outside the territories of the Member States. The relevant
number of hours shall be invoiced at the hourly fee.
anyone to believe that EASA staff to flying Economy ?? or staying in cheap Motel ???
why should they , since (if they are really doing what EAC tout) EAC is paying for ALL expenses ???
Freedom implores, "Please take you plane in to have the ADC's checked. While it may be (just) a pitot position error issue, (only!) affecting airspeed, this is an RVSM approved A/C, and you owe it to the rest of those flying in the 30's to ensure you have accurate air data."
Freedom, you're doing the same think Julius did--bitching about the design without bothering to find out how it is supposed to work.
That's pretty standard around here--too often guys don't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't stop them from voicing an opinion, goofy as it may be!
My Eclipse has 3 air data systems. All three are working precisely as designed. The plane is in full compliance with RVSM standards.
Your homework assignment: figure out and report back how that could be.
And until you do, please zipper it. Guys that engage their tongue before their brain bore me.
Ken
That's pretty standard around here--too often guys don't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't stop them from voicing an opinion, goofy as it may be!
My Eclipse has 3 air data systems. All three are working precisely as designed. The plane is in full compliance with RVSM standards.
Your homework assignment: figure out and report back how that could be.
And until you do, please zipper it. Guys that engage their tongue before their brain bore me.
Seeing on how you are complaining about people not having information, when are you going to answer CWMOR's questions?
As usual, you guys know not what you write. ADC3 and AHRS3 are the backup instruments that you claim do not exist. It's a pitot/static system and is not certified for use in RVSM airspace, or at speeds over 160 knots indicated. But you feel the need to protest it's use for conditions it was not meant to be used in. You are really lame, inaccurate, and childish. Sorry Ken, send the class to detention without lunch.
Ken,
Many would still like to know how you deal with clouds you encounter in your Eclipse when the OAT is 0 or below. What do you do? Certainly not every flight you make is in CAVU conditions for its entirety.
Just curious, you know...
Guys Ken is a coward, pure and simple.
Ken is a pigeon, every now and then he flies in, craps all over everything, makes some noise, and then flies off.
He refuses to answer simple questions about his much vaunted 'second' Eclipse position.
I think it is because his second Eclipse positions involves the use of kneepads.
I have asked a couple fairly straighforward questions that could be easily answered yet rather than answer those (or any other question I have asked him for the past 5 or 6 months) Ken continues to brag about his exploits in the partially incomplete preemie jet that he risks his life and that of his wife everytime he turens the engine knobs to START.
We should just give up on Ken and all his other identities - he is not at all interested in a real two-way conversation where honest and probing questions are asked about his beloved toyjet.
As Gunner has previously pointed out, quite accurately, the word is tool.
Ken,
You have a nearly 3% split in your airspeed indications, between ADC 1 and ADC 3.
This is not good. This is not normal. This is bad.
I do not doubt that this is within Eclipse tolerances. That is the same company which thought that crossed throttle control without AFM/AOM information of the mode was a good idea. The same company which thinks that shut off control of engines is not needed once electrical power is lost.
Your choices are:
1/ Lower your personal standards to match Eclipses.
2/ Make them address this under warranty.
You appear to have choosen door number one. It is probably the easier choice, seeing as Eclipse probably can't fix this even if you want them to.
I hope that you are never confronted with a situation in flight with your beloved family on board, where unambiguous airspeed data would be life saving.
EclipsePilotOMSIV, I made a typo in my request to you the other day.
Why was your plane in maintenance?
Dave asked "when are you going to answer CWMOR's questions?"
When he posts his last 5 years tax returns, the final papers from his most recent divorce, and the medical report on his schizophrenic breakdown.
What I buy or don't buy is none of anybody's damn business but mine.
Freedom notes "You have a nearly 3% split in your airspeed indications, between ADC 1 and ADC 3. This is not good. This is not normal. This is bad."
Freedom, you're digging the hole deeper. Turn and Burn gave you the right answer, but you didn't grasp it. Honestly, please just RTFM and quit sounding like a moron by saying stuff over and over again that just isn't so.
Ken
1/ Lower your personal standards to match Eclipses.
2/ Make them address this under warranty.
You appear to have choosen door number one. It is probably the easier choice, seeing as Eclipse probably can't fix this even if you want them to.
Just think if Ken had taken the $10,000 bet that he'd be out that too. At least in Ken not taking that DayJet bet, that itself told you everything you needed to know.
Ah yes, Ken's answer to the question about clouds and OAT:
Which FARs I violate or don't violate is none of anybody's damn business but mine.
yes , especially if EAC is claiming afterwards that pilots are too fast on landings and too heavy on brakes ...
3% + or - in landing-speed is that enough to be "too fast" ?
When he posts his last 5 years tax returns, the final papers from his most recent divorce, and the medical report on his schizophrenic breakdown.
What I buy or don't buy is none of anybody's damn business but mine.
You're the one who made it everyone's business by talking about it over and over again in the first place.
well , Kenny :
#Honestly, please just RTFM and quit sounding like a moron by saying stuff over and over again that just isn't so.#
who is always bragging about his flight between his 2 houses ?
isn't it a bit schizo to buy a plane supposed to cater for 6 ...
and complaining that you had to drive 3 days ...
you know : you are not supposed to move stuff from house1 to house2 in a plane which has near to 0 transport-stuff capabilities ...!
fred said... yes , especially if EAC is claiming afterwards that pilots are too fast on landings and too heavy on brakes ...
3% + or - in landing-speed is that enough to be "too fast" ?
Another moron that can't read.
Per CNBC, looks like UBS will have some window dressing to deal with executive compensation. Wonder if Peg will say no to any bonus for 2008 ....LOL, assuming she wasn't stiffed with her direct deposit last week.
e.d.t.
PS - I read this to mean that it is even more unlikely that UBS is in a position to help EAC raise capital:
UBS Changes Exec Pay Model, Axes 2008 Bonuses
Swiss bank UBS axed bonuses for top executives on Monday and said it would introduce a more transparent pay system in the most far-reaching changes on pay at a top European lender during the credit crisis.
UBS, which is struggling in the subprime crisis and whose shares slumped to a new all-time low on Monday, said Chairman Peter Kurer, Chief Executive Marcel Rohner and other executive board members would not get any bonuses this year.
Starting from 2009, top managers' bonuses will be blocked for at least three years instead of being paid immediately and executives will receive variable pay if UBS results warrant.
Under the new system, the chairman will only be awarded a fixed salary.
Kurer's fixed-pay salary for this year was 2 million Swiss francs ($1.68 million), he said on Monday.
"UBS is fully committed to taking its responsibilities seriously and correcting previous errors," the bank said.
Other major European players like Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds TSB and HBOS will not pay bonuses after taking British government cash and some top executives at Deutsche Bank have waived their bonus.
But UBS is the first large European lender to introduce a radical overhaul of its executive pay system.
Hefty bonuses for bankers have come under fire in the crisis for encouraging risk-taking rather than a longer-term strategy.
As part of a Swiss government bailout for UBS agreed a month ago, the state demanded a say in future compensation policy after heated criticism in Switzerland that prompted about thousand people to protest outside the bank on Saturday.
The Swiss media has targeted in particular UBS' ex-chairman Marcel Ospel, who fostered UBS' risky strategy in the U.S. subprime market and was forced to quit in April.
UBS said it was conducting a legal review of whether bonuses awarded to former executives could be clawed back.
Historic Low
UBS shares dropped to a new historic low of 13.51 Swiss francs during trading on Monday as pressure mounted over a U.S. tax fraud probe and investors grew increasingly concerned about money outflows.
UBS said last week Raoul Weil, head of wealth management and a board member, would step aside after U.S. authorities charged him with conspiring to help rich Americans avoid paying taxes.
But Kurer told a conference call that the pace of client withdrawals, which amounted to a record 49 billion Swiss francs for wealth management in the third quarter, was still slowing.
UBS shareholders will vote on the new pay scheme at an extraordinary shareholder meeting on Nov. 27, which also has to approve a government-sponsored rescue package allowing UBS to offload the vast majority of its illiquid assets while getting a 6 billion Swiss franc cash injection from the state.
Shareholder advocacy group Ethos welcomed the new rules at UBS but said they would still not prevent excessive pay.
"UBS does not intend to limit the variable part of the remuneration, by capping for example the bonus in terms of base salary or by setting a maximum amount of shares to be awarded under the long term incentive plan," Ethos said.
"Consequently Ethos has concerns that the new system will not prevent UBS from paying, in the future, remunerations that could be deemed excessive," Ethos said.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/27764465
#Another moron that can't read.#
how very nice of you ...
PLEASE , stop being nice with me ...
i could like it !!
i suppose that YOU KNOW , yourself just too well HOW to read ...
(i have a doubt , you haven't find out yet what kind of dirt-wrapped-in-golden-paper you try to defend )
but MAY i ask you IF you know what is the use of a question mark ????
it seems to me that it indicates quite well the paranoid state EA500-believers are in ...!!
freedom,
I think the eclipse's guarantee on THAT was +/-3%
bad joke, sorry
Here's Ken previously bragging about his two positions:
"My two Eclipse positions have each appreciated" (emphasis Ken's)
Now we get this from Ken:
"When he posts his last 5 years tax returns, the final papers from his most recent divorce, and the medical report on his schizophrenic breakdown.
What I buy or don't buy is none of anybody's damn business but mine."
People can draw their own conclusions.
Gentlemen,
A little decorum please. I can feel an outbreak of 'name calling' coming on.
I apologize if my suggestion that the FPJ fleet will be AOG on Thursday upset anyone.
Even if I'm proved correct.
I suspect the reason Ken is watching the blog so closely is that he has 'issues' with E5C. I would even go so far as to suggest that he believes 'we' will tell him the truth.
Who would have believed that, a year ago?
Any more suggestions for the name of EAC, post bankruptcy, to the usual address;-
eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
I have a goodly number useful suggestions, not all of which are suitable for a 'family blog' like this one. I'm also happy to announce that the winner will receive a 1:32 scale paper model of the FPJ.
Unfortunately, due to the incompetence of suppliers, the appalling training of staff and the lack of a real market for the product, the model will be incomplete.
So it will be an accurate reproduction of the FPJ, won't it?
Shane
Sorry about that last paragraph, I slipped into "Wedge" mode....
Shane
dave , you got it wrong !
Kenny's position have so much increased in value that NO one can afford to buy it ...
that is the reason he doesn't sell ...
A Persian-gulf sheik tried to buy it ($$$$$) to fly his baboush around , but it couldn't carry more than 3 at a time !
Monsieur Shane ...
you are an UNFAIR competitor ...!
#will receive a 1:32 scale paper model of the FPJ#
if you provide your clients with the same quality at a much faster speed , how do you want EAC to save its business-model ?? ;-))
Well on another online forum, Ken wrote on Nov 15th 2008 a statement that could be interpreted that his is now an investor in Eclipse Aviaton:
The author of that posting is an investor in the company with generally reliable information (which of course doesn't mean anything other than that it is still a bit premature to write off present management's future at the helm of Eclipse Aviation).
Ken
I am puzzled by his use of "that" instead of "this". Is Ken now an investor in Eclipse Aviation ?
Mumblee
zed said... Ken, did I mention that RVSM has nothing to do with airspeed?
Did we mention that ADC3 has an airspeed limitation of 160 knots indicated? Zed...Another student of remedial reading?
Zed asked, "Ken, did I mention that RVSM has nothing to do with airspeed?"
Yep, too many times.
But your angst is misplaced--it was Freedom who suggested I needed to get the plane fixed if I wanted to fly in RVSM airspace. I just responded to him that my plane is in perfect compliance with RVSM requirements. And it is.
And you're wrong anyway about the RVSM requirements. If it were ADC2 showing a 6 knot discrepancy instead of ADC3, we would NOT be RVSM compliant. RVSM DOES depend on airspeed.
Now go figure that one out, if you can!
Ken
ZED :
why did you think Kenny had to drive ? such a long time (on such a short distance ) !!!
wearing the skirt ? i thought it was pants ??? ;-))
i run away before shari run after me , her frying-pan at the hand ... (no , not the plane , the other one !)
From a friend on the E5C forum amid Ken’s rants that depositors who request refunds are creditors (and in his mind, no longer position holders), and thus should be booted from the E5C roles…
If that's true, I'm glad to see that Ken is doing his part to up the readership here on this blog.
Did we mention that ADC3 has an airspeed limitation of 160 knots indicated?
That's rich! A very useful tool for a jet, a backup ADC with a 160 indicated limitation. Of course, it's reading 179 indicated in Ken's picture.
So, in other words, it's a POS there is no reason to even display. Oooops, must be name calling to call it a POS.
Here's another foreign article on Roel and Eclipse:
Mayday for Roel Pieper
Then there's this too about Roel's Eclipse basketball team:
Sport Palace
TBM--
I'll wager you that your TBM (do you actually own one?) has one or two airspeed indicators.
Eclipse has you beat. They have two totally separate air data systems, but include as standard equipment a fulltime, backup, emergency THIRD airspeed indicator.
It's a totally separate air data system from the two primary ones. To accomplish maximum redundancy, it has its own built-in static port. And THAT is why it reads low at cruise speeds. The instrument is intended primarily for emergency use in low speed operations. It is not necessary for high speed operations and not intended to be used as a primary airspeed indication, though it can be very useful as a "voting probe" in the event ADC1 and ADC2 disagree.
Now there are only two possibilities here:
1. You knew all that stuff and chose to belittle the plane anyway even though its air data design is better and safer than yours, or
2. You didn't know all that stuff and chose to engage your tongue before your brain.
Hard to know which is worse.
Ken
Ken, Ken,
now t&b had to do your job and declares, that the MFD contains a window, that must be used with care when flying in the 30the or faster than 160 knts - even in case of emergency. Nice distraction and FAA certified - without a reminder!
Are there other certified distractions of this kind?
I wouldn't accept toys like this - but the FPJ is soooo cheap...
What would happen if everyone would have paid at least 2M for the FPJ?
Ken, you can change it..... or do you prefer EAC's TU instead of FIKI, Garmin, autothrottles etc?..
Cheers!
¡Mucha suerte!
Julius
P. S.: Ken, once RP believes that everything is settled for ETIRC, he might offer the upgrades in Ulyanowsk (ULWW).
You know it is funny. Ken and T&B say why something is the way it is and we get julius saying that there is no warning about the ADC3 disagree and yada yada, I'm sorry once again I don't speak euro-douche. Dude it is written in the AFM, the Systems Manual, etc, etc. Shit they might just touch on that in the training course.Just Maybe. Keep on trying to shoot holes in the plane guys. Hey I can send you a picture of a cows ass and I am sure you can comment on that too...
"maximum redundancy"
this is going to become very colorful, I can already tell.
TBMs_R_Us said... That's rich! A very useful tool for a jet, a backup ADC with a 160 indicated limitation. Of course, it's reading 179 indicated in Ken's picture.
I'll try and go slow for you TBMs_R_Us (by the way is that because you consider your plane a toy, or is marketed by Toys_R-Us?). ADC3 is a Backup instrument. At the time you are relying on it, that means ADC1 and ADC2 have shit the bed and it's time to get on the ground and not fly around with your hair on fire. At 10,000 feet 160 knots indicated is almost 200 knots true, plenty good for getting somewhere or flying the approach.
dave : excellent link , as usual !
Julius ,
if you read dave link , (do it from dutch if you can , it is better !)
you can read that the Russians are now supposed to inject 135 M$ in project ...
which is some kind of funny ...
after 650M$ , then 500M$ , 300M$ , 205 M$ ...
now we are at 135M$ !!
i would give the advice to the Russkyis to wait a little more ...
soon Roel is going to give them money ...!!;-))
With regard to the E500 Club, I would say that it has nothing to offer to position holders, whether they have canceled their positions or not.
If customers are not going to get their planes, and they are not, what is the point? The E5C has done nothing, and is doing nothing, to assist anyone in getting their deposit returned.
It's like a hospital waiting room where owners can converse and make each other feel good, while in the other room their planes are going Code Blue.
Does anyone remember the month that there was all the discussion about the MU2 in this blog? It seems another position holder recently gave up and bought an MU2, and I'd like to go back and see their comments and reasoning. Thanks.
I'll wager you that your TBM (do you actually own one?) has one or two airspeed indicators.
Eclipse has you beat. They have two totally separate air data systems, but include as standard equipment a fulltime, backup, emergency THIRD airspeed indicator.
It's a totally separate air data system from the two primary ones. To accomplish maximum redundancy, it has its own built-in static port. And THAT is why it reads low at cruise speeds. The instrument is intended primarily for emergency use in low speed operations. It is not necessary for high speed operations and not intended to be used as a primary airspeed indication, though it can be very useful as a "voting probe" in the event ADC1 and ADC2 disagree.
Now there are only two possibilities here:
1. You knew all that stuff and chose to belittle the plane anyway even though its air data design is better and safer than yours, or
Yes indeed, a TBM has two airspeed indicators, each from a separate (reliable) pitot. And, redundant to that, there is an independent ADC which provides a third airspeed indication. None of these airspeed indicators have any limitation as to an airspeed at which they work.
So it's hilarious that you think the FPJ has safer instrumentation than a TBM, and need to justify a lame limitation on your backup ADC.
At the time you are relying on it, that means ADC1 and ADC2 have shit the bed and it's time to get on the ground and not fly around with your hair on fire.
T&B, That's got it pretty close, an FPJ's avionics can "shit the bed". Speaking from experience?
Ken, you still haven't told us about your cloud encounters....
If customers are not going to get their planes, and they are not, what is the point? The E5C has done nothing, and is doing nothing, to assist anyone in getting their deposit returned.
It is to encourage both owners and depositors to do nothing so that it becomes harder and harder for them in court.
Zed wrote:
>> [...] for the Eclipse 500 the actual requirements are: [... ] e) TCAS II Mod 7 is required in European RVSM airspace
I'm afraid this is incorrect. ECAC wide ACAS II Equipage Requirements (=TCAS II V.7) are:
"With effect from 1 January 2005, ACAS II shall be carried and operated in the EUR region (including FIR Canarias) by all civil fixed-wing turbine-engined aircraft having a maximum take-off mass exceeding 5700 kg or a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 19."
(Source: ICAO Doc. 7030/4; Regional Supplementary Procedures, para. 19.1.1)
The EA500 does not meet either of the two criteria.
TCAS II V.7 (or ACAS in EU speak) has nothing to do with RVSM. Please let's not get confused on this ...
Regards,
Jan Brill
Ken, you still haven't told us about your cloud encounters....
Nephelococcygia
Toys-R-Us said... T&B, That's got it pretty close, an FPJ's avionics can "shit the bed". Speaking from experience?
Your posts show your lack of experience.
dave :
"Nephelococcygia" ?
excellent , reference to Aristophanes , now ...!
i am afraid all this is becoming too intellectual for my poor little brain ...
EclipsePilotOMSIV’s Persistent Alt Ken said …
Eclipse has you beat. They have two totally separate air data systems, but include as standard equipment a fulltime, backup, emergency THIRD airspeed indicator.
Sorry Ken, neither the airplane nor you are approved for intentional spin!
There is no free lunch. Remember not so long ago when only one PFD was standard? At that point ADC and AHRS on the MFD were the backup system required for IMC operations.
The logic was built into Avio at that point and carried forward. Once dual PFDs became standard (with a price increase) keeping ADC-3 in the system was a risk reduction that not only mitigated parallax and performance issues with the cross-cockpit instrument scan, but allowed simplified ACS logic.
The instrument is intended primarily for emergency use in low speed operations.
Wrong again Ken. It is entirely intended as a cross-reference during terminal ops when ADC-3 will very closely correlate with ADC-1/2. The confidence gained through cross-referencing during normal operations should carry over to its employment as primary display during a system failure (emergency) scenario.
As a Type Rated pilot you are cross-referencing, aren’t you?
You make this too easy.
Next!
Shane: You set the tone with the name calling Wdge and all (I didn't even bother to try to read understand that), and then complain about the Blog going down hill.
Ken: Give it up trying to have any intelligent discussion with Fred and Julius. They are not pilots (IMHO) have no undertanding of aviation, can't read, can't write, and have no manners - even when you pay them a compliment.
Freadon, TBM: Ken and T&B gave you the answers. There is nothing strange about back up intstruments having limitations on use. Just accept the answer. Now you MAY HAVE A VALID POINT if you say "It is a poor design to have an airspeed in substantial disagreement with the primary in the main field of view of a pilot". I could agree with that comment. Other than that, you are grasping at straws.
Ken: Unfortuanately, probably thinking you were participating in a mature technical blog, you chose to share some personal information, including your name, your wife's name, etc. I sincerely hope you don't come to regret that too much. While many here are fully capable of respecting your personal info (and particularly that of your family), some here are so vial, childish and motivated by gratuitus hate of Eclipse, that they would not think twice about trashing you personally. You clearly don't need advice from me on not sharing more personal info here, but I, for one, am sick of these ridiculous challanges by anonymous posters to have others post personal info.
Shane: You posted that Avio NG 1.5 was certified - can you confir, dispell that "drive by" comment.
Any one from ABQ knows if payroll checks cleared today as expected?
Fred,
bonjour!
LA arabic for no,(merci beaucoup)!
LO hebrew kor no.
"ken" isn't that "yes" in hebrew?
Crazy!
Which advantage have Ken et al., if EAC, FPJ are EASA certified?
I can wait.
Julius
P.S.: I was two times for a fortnight in Israel/Jordania.
That's my "link" to the hebrew.
Yes, David's hint is great. RP
has a lot of ideas and does not fail every time...
From our 'no longer working in FPJ's pilot'
I have the Trusty FPJ manual in my hot little hand. To fly in US RVSM airspace the FPJ needs these items to operate:
1. An operating autopilot.
2. An altitude alerting system.
3. An altitude reporting transponder.
4. Both Air Data Computer number 1 and 2.
If any one of these items become inoperative, the pilot must give ATC a malfunction report and ask to descend below FL 290.
ADC 3 is only a backup and can only be relied upon below 160 kts, outside of RVSM airspace.
ADC 1 is normally displayed on the Captains PFD. ADC 2 is normally displayed on the first officers PFD. ADC 3 is displayed on the MFD.
If either ADC 1 or 2 become inoperative, the pilot can manually select the operative ADC to be displayed on his respective PFD. If ADC 1 or 2 are both inoperative, then ADC 3 is the last resort.
The Pitot/AOA probes are mounted in this fashion. On the lower left of the nose is ADC 1, on the right side of the nose is ADC 2. ADC 3 is on the left side just above ADC 1.
There is a difference between the airspeed indications of ADC 1,2 and ADC 3. This is caused by a position error in the mounting of the pitot/AOA probes.
In my experience, the ADC's have failed me on more than one occasion, along with the many other Failures that the FPJ has to offer. I'm not looking forwards to flying it again, ever.
I hope that this sets things straight.
Myself, I'd be more concerned about the last paragraph. It's not that the airspeeds disagree that's important.
It's when Avio goes blank.
THAT's the real issue....
Shane
Shane: You posted that Avio NG 1.5 was certified - can you confir, dispell that "drive by" comment.
Ken was the one who made the "drive by" comment as you put it.
Shane's ex pro pilot said ... I'm not looking forwards to flying it again, ever.
And, OBVIOUSLY, you came to that position after you were involutarily terminated from duty flying the EA500, right?
OTOH, that was your best post to date - clear and accurate. Oh, but that was because you were just typing what you read from the AFM.
Want to make it interesting and add value, please tell us about a couple of those failures, how they impacted safety, how they were handled, etc. That would be first hand knowledge, that, so far, only Ken has been posting (positive) - so tell us a real EA500 failure story. I'd sicerelly appreciate that.
Baron,
Shane: You posted that Avio NG 1.5 was certified - can you confir, dispell that "drive by" comment.
Any one from ABQ knows if payroll checks cleared today as expected?
No, I didn't post that. Ken did. I checked with my sources, and was told that 'yes, 1.5 passed, but the paperwork (manuals etc) to support it did not, hence the delay in formal notice'.
The only staff due to get money today from EAC are those few paid by cheque. The people paid electronically were told the funds would reach their banks tonight/tomorrow.
And the 'tone' here is just fine. After the Wedge called me a 'cockroach', the gloves came off. The next headline is with my lawyers as I write. I suspect that the 'tone' might get a little shrill from The Faithful after I put it up....
But don't worry. I'm contrasting what The Wedge said, at the VLJ Forum last week, with the FACTS.
He really can be very funny sometimes. Remember how he compared himself to Sarah Palin? I've got two words for you.
Katie Couric.
Shane
Zed, the plane requires airspeed agreement between ADC1 and ADC2 for RVSM compliance. You can say it doesn't all you want--saying it over and over again won't make you right on this one; it just makes you boring.
I'm amazed you don't know why RVSM compliance in this plane is dependent on airspeed agreement. It's pretty basic for those who know about the plane. And pretty complex for those who are just guessing.
Which means it is a good bogometer :)
Ken
Julius ...
i have spent about a year in Israel/Palestine , then a few months in the countries around ...
yes , ken is Ja in hebrew , may be one of the reason i cannot get to call our Ken this way ...
my link to this is , i am partly jewish , but i hope not mad enough to side with one or the other without trying to understand by myself !
but since i was born in Morocco , and spend length of times there in winter , i am used to arabic as well (even if the one from Morocco as not a lot to do with the one from Jordan)
to your question "what Kenny has in EASA cert. ?"
just about nothing !
apart from traveling , hosting and feeding (all the three in an expensive and luxurious way)a bunch of European engineers , i don't really see the point of spending any cash on this ...
as i am quite sure that IF EA500 is to be sold in E.U. , it is going to be counted in Units or tens , but VERY ...VERY unlikely in hundreds , not to say anything about thousands ...!
RVSM Regs
Even if Eclipse makes payroll and even if Eclipse gets $200 million, still no explanation on how Eclipse wont continue being anything other than a money pit. Either Eclipse is going to have to have another major price increase or Roel will have to show how he's going to sustainably produce and sell 500 (with one factory) -1000+ (with two factories) units per year. Eclipse has been around for a decade and not even breaking even is in sight.
Baron
yes , we (fred and julius) are bad !
fine , move on ...
about Kenny's wife name , it is himself who touted in past about her plane (yes , the position he is desperately trying to resale ...)
when i was in Law school , we had a prof. who was saying "if you show your a** in public , don't complain after someone took a photo !" ;-)
i think it is quite a good application of principle ...!
on my lack of manners , yes , i don't have any ...
why ? may be because i prefer someone who send me to hell straight , than someone turning endlessly around the pot ...!
about NOT being a pilot : is that such a disease that all hopes has to be forsaken ?
there is one thing you seems not getting , situation change all the time , one day good = who knows about tomorrow ...
i don't think i made any secret of this , i am not a pilot and then ? move on , again ...
and finally about knowing how to write or not , i don't care ...
i am 47 , i'll turn 48 in May , and i will retire from work-world !
yes i don't know how to write , and even less how to read ...
not too bad for an illiterate like me ..
may be that is why i do not read you , you should follow my example
because you we are of different type :
when i see something i don't agree with , i always ask myself "who am i to judge ?"
when you see something you disagree with , you just try to curb reality ...
Baron95,
I'm amazed you don't know why RVSM compliance in this plane is dependent on airspeed agreement. It's pretty basic for those who know about the plane. And pretty complex for those who are just guessing.
you appreciate discussions like above - that's you point of view.
BTW: ADC3: I asked Ken two times; T&B gave the first answer - I still cannot believe it, but it's ok; You post: "There is nothing strange about back up intstruments having limitations on use." - even without placards or equivalent!
You ask the ex FPJ pilot for info's - see above, if you do not get your answers!
Julius
TBMs wrote, "Yes indeed, a TBM has two airspeed indicators, each from a separate (reliable) pitot. And, redundant to that, there is an independent ADC which provides a third airspeed indication."
Far be it for me to question the expertise of a guy whose name includes "TBM" on the matter of a TBM's equipment, but my TBM 850 AFM seems to disagree with your contention that the plane has a third independent ADC providing a third independenct air speed indication:
"Airplane air data system consists of:
--two separate static pressure systems supplying the altimeters, airspeed and vertical speed indicators. They also provide a static pressure reference to the delta-P cabin and to the Autopilot system Air Data Computer (ADC).
--System 1 is backed up by an alternate system which operation is controlled by a switching valve (normal/alternate) attached to instrument panel under R.H. control wheel.
--two separate dynamic pressure systems supplying the airspeed indicators systems, Vmo audio warning detector and the Autopilot system Air Data Computer (ADC)."
According to the AFM, the ADC you referred to as "independent" actually reads directly off the main pitot tube; it is not independent at all because it uses the same pitot tube as the pilot airspeed indicator. That is quite unlike the Eclipse design which provides a completely redundant third pitot/static system.
Ken
about Kenny's wife name , it is himself who touted in past about her plane (yes , the position he is desperately trying to resale ...)
Yes, it is very convenient when someone repeatedly makes a public spectacle about it and then after having voluntarilly making it public, then saying it is private. Nobody asked Ken to brag, but once you go about being a braggart, you have to accept the consequences.
Julius, if a pilot doesn't want the redundancy permitted by the Eclipse having a third, truly-independent source of static and pitot information, a simple setting permits him to display airspeed and altitude information from ADC2 on the MFD. That would put airspeed and altitude data from ADC1 (sourced from the left hand pitot) on his PFD and data from ADC2 (sourced from the right hand pitot) immediately adjacent to it.
Most pilots prefer the redundancy of having ADC3 (sourced from yet a third pitot) displayed on the MFD for some very good reasons, but for those who are hung up on it, you can just go back to a 2-ADC system like most planes have by making a single setting change.
Ken
Zed wrote, "Simply provide the AFM page number where that requirement is listed and I will concede the point."
Sure; thank you. It is page 2-4:
"Autopilot--must be operational"
The autopilot will automatically disengage for several failures and cannot be re-engaged while the failure persists. One of those failures is airspeed disagree beyond allowable threshold. You need an operational autopilot for RVSM airspace. Without an operating autopilot, the plane is not RVSM-compliant.
Ken
Ken,
thank you for the ADC's info.
That also explains, where you put the speeds-, altitude- and attidude- infos, in case of a PFD failure - just "override" the ADC3-display area.
Julius
Zed wrote,
"Ken -
You truly are a moron."
Zed, I couldn't help noticing that you did not handle the embarassment of being wrong very well. I said a six-knot airspeed disagree between ADC1 and 2 would render the Eclipse no longer RVSM-compliant due to not meeting RVSM requirements. You disagreed. But the fact is you cannot fly an Eclipse in RVSM airspace with airspeed disagree because it wouldn't meet the autopilot requirement.
Case closed, but thanks for an interesting discussion.
Ken
Ken,
My bad, you are correct that the TBM ADC is not independent of the two pitot-static systems.
However, this does not change my opinion as to the relative safety of the two aircraft.
I still question the wisdom of operating a non FIKI aircraft in the flight levels on long cross country flights, as you like to brag about. I've encountered ice at FL270 enroute to MMPR while not far from MZT. Encountering ice during departure climb or arrival descent is a common year round experience. Most of it is not forecast nor the subject of an Airmet. These situations require a FIKI aircraft. That requirement is one that you can't meet in your Eclipse. And you want to claim and appear to believe that you have a safe aircraft??? Good luck!!!
TBMs--
As you may know, the Eclipse 500 is now approved for flight into known icing. You seem to want to focus on a moot point.
But since you bring it up, most of our flights are in the mid to high 30's. Unlike a TBM, where you are stuck precisely where the weather occurs, unable to top most of it, the Eclipse spends the bulk of its flight time above the weather.
Ken
As you may know, the Eclipse 500 is now approved for flight into known icing. You seem to want to focus on a moot point.
I guess Eclipse missed the memo:
None of these aircraft offered for sale currently has Avio NG 1.5 or FIKI capability.
Eclipse Aviation Special Sale
Just because something is approved, it doesn't mean all Eclipse 500 aircraft automatically have it (the same applies for NG, etc), so it makes it anything but moot. You let us know when the entire Eclipse 500 fleet is retrofited for FIKI and then it will be a moot point.
But since you bring it up, most of our flights are in the mid to high 30's. Unlike a TBM, where you are stuck precisely where the weather occurs, unable to top most of it, the Eclipse spends the bulk of its flight time above the weather.
Yes Ken, we know. But you have to climb to get there and descend to get back, and you pass through all of the layers in doing so. Moot point? Is your aircraft FIKI certified?
Dave said... Yes, it is very convenient when someone repeatedly makes a public spectacle about it and then after having voluntarilly making it public, then saying it is private.
Really? So you think that if one divulges a bit of personal info, he/she is now forced to divulge it ALL, on demand, as requested by anonymous and infantile posters. Please.
Clearly, this blog was once focused on technical/business aspects of the E500 programs. The discussions appeared to be going in the direction of mature airing of differences of opinions, with several participants sharing personal annecdotes and preferences.
Then, for some reason, the Blog started attracting a bunch of posters which just put down everything and everyone that reports any tiny bit of favorable news on Eclipse/E500.
Why do you think ALL people that were on the "other side" decided to stop participating in the blog for extended periods of time?
Every time they return and report some useful piece of info or datapoint on EA500, the response is the same: "You are full of it, how come you didn't say what position you sold or what FARs you violated, blah, blah, blah" or Dave, your personal favorites.
In this environment, it would be silly to continue to share personal info because of a silly dare to do so.
"the Eclipse spends the bulk of its flight time above the weather"
r-e-a-l-l-y?
I think they spend most of their time on the ground, or up for sale... this is also where they are safest, IMO.
"One of those failures is airspeed disagree beyond allowable threshold."
So ADC-3 that provides wrong data in RVSM space is REQUIRED by the EA-50 for flight RVSM?
IS this somehow the point? Round the barn through the autopilot - provide data that NEEDS TO BE DISMISSED becasue its wrong - ADC-3.... is somehow required for EA-50 in RVSM?
Sounds to me like a left-over... being sold as a safety feature to me... but heck, I guess if you'll bought one of these planes, this is the last thing you need to worry about.
"Maximum redundancy"... sounds like some of the posts here, not the avionics, to me.
baron,
a long time ago, this blog was a hotbed of insults, and basically tremendous venting and frustration... I look back at some of my saltier posts, and I am truly embarassed - it was wrong. It was in the heat of the moment - I am not proud of those posts.
Also, they led to nothing but nastiness... even when someone insulted me, I shuld have just backed off... but it took some time to learn.
People post here for their own reasons... just ignore the salt... or laugh a little... some of it is funn.
I seriously doubt Ken will leave - he has a reason for spending his time here.... emotional and financial... IMO.
Ken... keep posting, thanks for the insight.
Fly safe.
You guys should be embarassed. Ken just showed you what was up. Nice job.
Really? So you think that if one divulges a bit of personal info, he/she is now forced to divulge it ALL, on demand, as requested by anonymous and infantile posters. Please.
This wasn't a matter of what belt size someone is, but it directly relates to the subject matter of this blog. If you don't want to talk about something - particularly when it is directly related to this blog - don't bring it up in the first place. Bragging about something when it is convenient and then saying it is personal when it is inconvenient is infantile.
Clearly, this blog was once focused on technical/business aspects of the E500 programs. The discussions appeared to be going in the direction of mature airing of differences of opinions, with several participants sharing personal annecdotes and preferences.
Then, for some reason, the Blog started attracting a bunch of posters which just put down everything and everyone that reports any tiny bit of favorable news on Eclipse/E500.
Multiple times just recently I've put up asking about a sustainable business model and nobody including yourself has answered. You say you want to talk about the business aspects but then you don't.
AT asked, "So ADC-3 that provides wrong data in RVSM space is REQUIRED by the EA-50 for flight RVSM?"
No, that's not right. ADC3 is not required for RVSM flight. ADC3 has two functions:
1. It is used as a third backup in the event both ADC1 and ADC2 fail. In that event, its use is restricted to 160 KEAS and below.
2. It may be used to determine which primary air data system, ADC1 or ADC2, is correct, in the event those two disagree (that's the use Zed suggested wasn't permitted, but he was wrong).
Ken
"Shit they might just touch on that in the training course."
Uh...um...WHAT training course? Oh...that's right...that is gone too
Wow, you guys are really going at it! Just like old times!
I'm not sure it makes sense to even argue about what the E500 has, or doesn't have. It's a little late for performance comparisons and discussing technical specifications because before long the E500 is likely to be a relic of the past. Let's face it - even profitable companies are having problems finding money now. Unprofitable ones are just going out of business, and the party is just getting started. NO way EAC can weather this downturn - NO way! EAC has flatlined - yeah, they may get a small cash infusion so they can exist a while longer. Kind of like putting lipstick and a nice dress on a rotting corpse - but within a short while this company is going to be buried and ancient history.
Let the E500 owners have their day in the sun, while they can.
"Any one from ABQ knows if payroll checks cleared today as expected?"
Baron,
I think they said Tuesday, but will go back and check
Let's face it - even profitable companies are having problems finding money now. Unprofitable ones are just going out of business, and the party is just getting started. NO way EAC can weather this downturn - NO way! EAC has flatlined - yeah, they may get a small cash infusion so they can exist a while longer.
But according to Fearless Leader Chavez, Eclipse told him that Eclipse was just about to get $200M+. Assuming that is true, what good would it do? Even assuming that Eclipse started December 1st with $200 million in the bank and no debts or liabilities and they had EASA, how would that stop Eclipse from being a money pit while still being an aircraft manufacturer?
Freedom was basically stating that he was concerned you had pitot/ADS system problem, and since you were flying in the same airspace as him, you should get it checked.
LONG way around the barn, and somehow, you chose to parse and interpret this as him saying your plane was not RVSM compliant? Or at least you stated in your response that it was...as if he said it wasn't.
How this is helpful, is beyond me, but I imagine it provides you with a high degree of comfort, because you have the bad data there for reference on your PFD.
Ken:
"my Eclipse has 3 air data systems. All three are working precisely as designed. The plane is in full compliance with RVSM standards."
OK...
Perhaps he should have said, "I hope you know which data is correct, and you don't use the data provide by the system that is providing faulty data while you are flying anywhere near me..."
Zed wrote, "It is just nice to tweak old Ken. He is such an easy target."
I see your embarassment has not yet worn off, Zed. Don't feel so bad; I have a soft spot in my heart for "experts" who aren't.
Cheers!
Ken
ATM said ... People post here for their own reasons... just ignore the salt... or laugh a little... some of it is funn.
Yes. You are correct. Thanks for reminding me of that.
One a more positive note, I'd like to report that I posted some of the above while flying at FL380 on an AA763 through Gogo in-flight wireless internet access.
It was $12.xx for the 6 hr flight and the speed was very good - better than what I get on many hotels.
Sooo.... while we are now flying slower than the 707s of the 60s, at least we can be more productive.
Is that progress?
Dave said ... Multiple times just recently I've put up asking about a sustainable business model and nobody including yourself has answered.
I already told you my opinion on this multiple times - nothing has changed.
For Eclipse 1.0 (i.e. without BK) to make it, it will take:
$400M-$600M in additional funding to accomplish the following:
1 - Completing certification and updating of fleet to GavioNG 1.5, EASA, FIKI.
2 - Establishing a 150-300 planes/year sustainable production line at a price close to $2.4M.
3 - Upgrading EA500 to Garmin 1000 SVT and certifying starting production of EA400 without major screw-ups by 2012.
Chances of getting the funds above - 5%.
Chances of accomplishing all of the above with the funds: 5%
More likely scenario is a trip through BK and I already outlined the two variations on that: a) servicing company with captive owners or b) Service company + slow volume production.
So there is nothing new to report, until we know if/how much money Eclipse gets and/or if it goes to EAC 2.0.
There is no point discussing the same thing over and over in the abscense of new info - the results will be the same: circular speculation.
There is no point discussing the same thing over and over in the abscense of new info - the results will be the same: circular speculation.
The new info is that there may be Eclipse 2.0 via a new entity (which was further elaborated on that it would be reduced capacity compared to 1.0, if I'm not mistaken), which is the reason why I brought it up. I already know where you stand on Eclipse 1.0, which was why I was very specific in stating Eclipse continuing on as an aircraft manufacturer. However, that does bring up the question of what Eclipse is worth to be a servicer as well as holding rights to an aircraft that is FIKI/EASA compliant. Given Eclipse's liabilities and debts, I don't see how they are worth anything right now other than a trip through BK court, which I'm trying to figure out how Eclipse could accomplish anything with $200M (as 1.0 or 2.0) other than continuing burn more money. Excluding what's owed to suppliers, just to customers the refund and retrofit bill alone has got to be a large chunk of that. Perhaps the $200M would be for ETIRC rather than Eclipse as that would be the only reason I could see to do it now rather than post-BK.
Zed,
The 'moron' post is out of order. Please take the necessary action.
Ken,
Stop nitpicking. It's too late for that. You know it, I know it and an increasing number of people outside this blog know it. Quick question. Were you one of the pilots helping to extract FPJ's from Gainsville on Friday 'just in case'?
Baron,
Just had an unconfirmed report that cash reached employee accounts today. I would prefer if there was more than one, or it was from a 'known' source, but you seem anxious to know, and I'm aware that lots of EAC people read the blog. I hope I'm not wrong about this one, for sure.
Oh, and I called this blog the Eclipse Aviation CRITIC for a reason....
9Z,
Just like old times! But a few things have changed, while others seem frozen in time.
1. Production has all but stopped.
2. 7 (yes, that's SEVEN) depositors have sued in an effort to extract their money from EAC, one of them being their distributor in Australia.
3. The Wedge has departed, and spends his time insulting us in public. He'll regret that only once, and that will be continuously, to paraphrase Jeb Stuart 'the best cavalry officer ever foaled in America'.
4. EAC struggles to make payroll, and has taken to doing so, in public.
5. Roel Pieper has been uncovered as a 'man of straw' who can't fund EAC to break even, never mind profitability. This despite the brave words when he invested earlier.
6. Not one FPJ produced to date has met it's original promised specification.
7. EASA has still not certified the FPJ.
8. Suppliers, both large and small, have deserted the program, and replacements will be hard to find. Only those without internet access and the ability to type 'Eclipse Aviation' into a Google search will be mugged into giving the company credit.
I could go on but by the time I'd finished typing EAC would probably have gone bankrupt.
Shane
And another thing.
I've reason to believe that we have been joined on the blog by none other than Mike Press himself.
What a singular honor!
Can we expect those glowing reports on the ever increasing value of FPJ positions to be delivered directly here, or will we have to wait for them to be sent on?
Hang on, those newsletters seem to have faded into the background.
Could this mean they were worth less that you suggested?
Tell us this isn't so.
Many of your customers relied on your expertise and judgement to make them a fortune.
How many of them have lost one?
Shane
PS How many aircraft DID you mange to 'extract' on Friday, Mike?
5. Roel Pieper has been uncovered as a 'man of straw' who can't fund EAC to break even, never mind profitability. This despite the brave words when he invested earlier.
I think Roel only made things worse for Eclipse. I think his "Eclipse has so much demand we need two factories!" bit was so that he could have a quick sale to somebody else who got taken in...like Vern and the IPO, just Roel expanded upon Vern's game plan of a cooked order book and astronomical production volume. Roel going sailing and then skipping out on the Congressional hearing because he had more pressing matters than Eclipse didn't help things either.
"I would prefer if there was more than one, or it was from a 'known' source,"
Shane,
I just talked with a person in ABQ and THEY got paid today.
let me clear that up...that person got paid and is from the floor, so I assume the rest did...
ISSC will hold its conference call on Wednesday. This should provide an oppurtunity to see how it views the Eclipse prospects.
Innovative Solutions & Support, Inc. Announces the Release Date of Fourth Quarter Results and Conference Call Information
EXTON, Pa.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Innovative Solutions & Support, Inc. (NASDAQ:ISSC - News) announced today the Company will release results for the fourth quarter and year ended September 30, 2008 on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 after the market closes. The company will host a conference call the next day, Thursday, November 20, 2008 at 9:30 AM local time to discuss these results.
Please use the following dial in number to register your name and company affiliation for the conference call: 888-562-3654. The conference ID# is 70933827. The call will also be carried live on Investor Relations page of the Company web site at www.innovative-ss.com and will be available for subsequent listening for 90 days.
Ken Meyer said...
Zed, I have a soft spot in my heart for "experts" who aren't.
Ken, this is a target rich environment.
Ken,
I will give you credit for one thing, that's for sure... making only what you WANT to make out of anything...
Statements
Character
Reputations
Events
Products
Performance numbers
Risks
You name it, if it can be rephrased, reclaimed, reframed, refocused, and recast...
Ken IS your man.
*** the point was, please make sure you refer to the correct air data on your screen when flying anywhere near me... there is conflictig data on that screen, and this may cause problems. If anything needs to be fixed (how would you know? How would you know what is right and wrong?) please fix it, prior to coming anywhere near... OH YEAH, I forgot... you know it all.... you now it all...
I believe the guy who says this is legacy system BS, sold as safety - in fact, there is no really good reason the third ADS provides the wrong data at any altitude... except, they saved some money, or failed to redesign when that could be a little safer, in a config change.
TB, you sound just like Vern... "target rich"... hmmm... I've heard that before... you refering to the EAC depositors...
ALl these little factoids and details, when the big picture is so damn sad.
I feel like I'm watching an eye surgeon doing a procedure on a dead body - his eyes are perfect now , I did it!!! SUCCESS!!! - but he cannot see anything - he's dead.
I don't believe I'd be going too far out on a limb here if I suggest that Mike, or anyone else who is dependent upon reselling E500's or E500 positions to make a living, might consider looking for another line of work at their earliest opportunity.
It's not going to get any better from here.
Ken, the Eclipse has received approval for FIKI. When did you take your plane back and have the work done to have your plane signed off. You are correct that your plane has the FIKI equip. and it works but the system is collared off and can only be turned on while on the ground prior to flight. While many do this all the time the plane is not legal for FIKI until it returns to the service center to be cert.
Ken explained how to bypass this requirement long ago on this blog -before EA-50 received FIKI cert...
don't worry about him - he knows everything
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/
financialnews/D94EVP8G0.htm
balanced reporting...
lives another day or so...
Man, I hope the get another $300Million... I wonder what they will try to do with that money?
Man, I hope the get another $300Million... I wonder what they will try to do with that money?
They would continue generating comedy rhodium.
#They would continue generating comedy rhodium. #
OH , yes ...
i repeat , again :
WHAT IS THE POINT OF ALL THIS ?
Answer : NONE !
this is really funny , while any new customer is running for the exit , past customers are suing to get what can be re-taken of their cash deposits , already served customers are suing for "non-compliance" ...
they try to revive the "beast" by putting it under the proper "medical equipment" (don't you know that you can keep "alive" or at least heart-beating if that is "life" a deceased person for almost ever ? )
as for a dead , what is the point of this ?
as soon as you will unplug it , the scope will go flat !
may be not strictly speaking a criminal act to lie to everyone , to cheat your clients , staff and furnishers ...
may be not really criminal to make parts of your own country's administration (FAA) to be the center of a joke ...
may be not really criminal to hang your staff in the unknown of tomorrow just a very few week before end of year celebration ...
may be not really criminal to rely on community to face the bill of your failed attempts ...
where it starts to be criminal is :
when you know that whatever you'll do , it will never make it ...!
whatever you say , no one can trust your product ...
sometime pride has really a very strange effect ...
EAC and the merry band is a very example !
PS: sometime if Humanity could keep for itself its own pride , instead of spreading a complete lack of integrity as a kind of pride ... the whole world could be a little safer place !
Ken,
We would appreciate it if you would share your detailed weight and balance calculation for that Mexico Flight.
Nice place you have there. I spent a few days at the beach at the top of Baha (near San Felipe) at the end of the eighties? Great area.
airtaxi :
your link to newspaper is quite interesting ...
#Mayor Martin Chavez said. "They are caught in the global credit crunch just like everybody else."#
Well ... sorry M. Chavez , credit crunch has nothing to do into this :mismanagement , ego , pure incompetency , egoism and foolish pride has everything to do with ...
#However, he said his administration has "assembled an internal team to watch carefully, should the company stumble, so that the taxpayers are protected."#
well ... that is good to know for tax-payers , the Mayor can revive money gone into smoke without having the said tax-payers facing the bill ... may be he should be at head of World Bank ...!
#Chavez also said he would not support a city bailout for the company at this time.#
well ... a little bit of speculation here : How many chance someone being at the head of a region has to eventually get a position in a government to be formed , if in some other part of country , it is publicly revealed (publicly = every one already know about but until made"public" can always pretend "i didn't know!") he wasted public money in a fiasco that a 10 years old schoolboy could depict as a fiasco going on for much too long ?
Baron95 wrote "It is a poor design to have an airspeed in substantial disagreement with the primary in the main field of view of a pilot".
Thanks Baron, you have summarised the point I was trying to make, better than I could.
Ken, thanks for insulting me. Wasn't the last time you took your toys and sloped off, about the time you were defending Eclipse crossed throttle inovation, while I was pointing out the FAR's to which that design was non-compliant?
Owners, you paid $785,000 or more for these A/C. Disagreeing primary flight data in you main field of view is a Human factors issue.
Okay, you don't care.
We now know enough about the Eclipse-FAA relationship, to understand how such poor design decisions came to be certified.
How many EA500's have FIKI installed, approved, and activated legally?
Only the Flight test A/C used for that program, or have some field retrofits been performed.
What was the tail number of the flight test A/C for FIKI?
freedom :
don't look for such ...
at the time being it doesn't exist !
time will tell if it will ever exist !
to have FIKI = need for avio 1.5
avio 1.5 not fully certified (think : half certified = half pregnant woman ! have you ever heard about ?)
so Tail number for such : 0+0 ! ;-))
Talking to some folks at EAC, I hope they DO get 300M if only to give the employees there some time to be getting new jobs and have a paycheck in the meantime.
Freedom wrote "Disagreeing primary flight data in you main field of view is a Human factors issue."
Actually, the design was thoroughly evaluated by the Flight Standardization Board back in 2007. And of course there is no regulation specifying that the backup airspeed indicator must be accurate in all flight regimes. Nor one that says it can't be in the field of view without being accurate at all speeds. You're making that all up as you go along. (Very imaginative though!)
The plain fact is you've chosen to focus on an "issue" that isn't an issue. Not a single Eclipse pilot is "distracted" by the third airspeed indicator. That's pure baloney.
In point of fact, if an Eclipse pilot didn't like having the emergency, backup, full-time standby third airspeed indicator in his field of view, he could change one setting and get the co-pilot's airspeed indication there instead. No Eclipse pilot I know does that. It would be kinda dumb because it would turn his plane back into a standard two-pitot design like the Mustang, instead of a safer 3-pitot design like the Eclipse. But you could do it if you wanted to.
I love "experts" who aren't.
Ken
There's actually more than 7 open customer lawsuits and it seems like each day they are growing. Here are all the open ones at the federal level:
1) Geiger Excavating Inc v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
2) Ice Blue Air Limited v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
3) Loeb Holding Corporation v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
4) Bigler v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
5) Royal Properties, N.V. v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
6) EPAC Aviation PTY, Ltd. v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
7) FL 410 LLC v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
8) Guerere v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
9) AR Airways v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
10) Utah Desert Investments, Inc. v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
11) Sociedad Aeronautica Peninsular, SL v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
12) BLI Aviation LLC v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
Then there's this case that was filed with the NM state court:
13) Comac Capital v Eclipse Aviation Corporation
Also according to one of the attorneys who represents three of the litigants, he knows of 25 more depositors (some with multiple deposits) that could bring litigation.
Then there's also OURPlane who could bring litigation:
In addition, there are limits on how long some customers will wait for Eclipse to turn things around.
“Our business has been dramatically affected by the problems at Eclipse,” Casson said. “If they don’t come out from this turnaround, there will be some very messy problems with people pursuing litigation. If Pieper’s team doesn’t deliver on the promised improvements in the next three or four months, we will pull all our support from the company.”
NMBW:Eclipse holds on to customer loyalty despite challenges
Debating disagreement between the air data computers on the Eclipse is like wondering whether the ship’s band on the Titanic was playing out of tune. Let Ken take pride in the highest Mach number displayed, just as some of the ship's passengers took solace in hearing Nearer My God to Thee.
JustZIS ..
sorry , but it look like as what my Grand-mother used to say :
"this sound so messy , that a pig in a pigsty wouldn't find his sow ...!"
If Avio NG exist and is supposed to be better : WHY Avio1.5 is to be certified ?
(and why not just dumped in the bin ??)
then
why NOT ALL already ASSEMBLED AIRCRAFT are not fitted with it ???
off-course for free !
dave :
thanks for your work !
now i have found a new justification for all this ...
in fact , Vern's son is a lawyer ...
he was just trying to give him a good professional start !!! ;-))
"Actually, the design was thoroughly evaluated by the Flight Standardization Board back in 2007"
Would that be the board that tesified in front of Congress, or the one that was bought?
in fact , i am starting to wonder if Negative Order Book can exist ...
so many to sue , that i wonder if it is not like Magnasco (the painter) , still in Law School the same Prof . used to say :
"Magnasco is a remarkable painter , the only one who has painted 500 master work but has 1000 on display in all museum ...!"
if so many "Ingrates" keep on suing EAC , i wonder when we are going to find out that apart Kenny and (Very?) few , no one is really happy with the Fpj ....?
Black Tulip observed...
"Debating disagreement between the air data computers on the Eclipse is like wondering whether the ship’s band on the Titanic was playing out of tune."
You know that's really the crux of the issue here, isn't it? You guys can't fault the plane itself--when you try, most of the time, you get it wrong.
So, you keep falling back onto the "they are doomed" line that hasn't worked for you the nineteen thousand times you've said it over the last two years.
They are not doomed, fellas, sorry. But let's say one day you turn out right, and Eclipse reorganizes. Do you not realize the plane will still be around 'cause it's a very good design with no significant competition?
I guess that means you guys will be around a long, long time! So the heading of the Shane's entry, "Sadly, it looks like the end" is pretty silly, isn't it?
Ken
You know that's really the crux of the issue here, isn't it? You guys can't fault the plane itself--when you try, most of the time, you get it wrong.
No, you tried to brush away FIKI issues, but got it wrong saying it was moot. Like I said, let me know when the entire fleet is retrofited for FIKI, then I'll agree it is moot.
So, you keep falling back onto the "they are doomed" line that hasn't worked for you the nineteen thousand times you've said it over the last two years.
So when is the last time they broke even? When will they break even? I don't see you offering up how they'll have a sustainable business model where they will at least break even.
They are not doomed, fellas, sorry.
Great, so you can explain their business model that prevents them from continually losing money.
I guess that means you guys will be around a long, long time! So the heading of the Shane's entry, "Sadly, it looks like the end" is pretty silly, isn't it?
So how much of the $200-$300 million has Eclipse received in the bank? If/When Eclipse does have that, how much will go to paying past due bills and refunds? Explain to me how $300 million will result in Eclipse being around for a "long, long time."
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