Monday, June 30, 2008

Pilot of Eclipse Jet Emergency Shares Personal Experience

From Charterx.com, with kind permission of the author.

29-Jun-2008
By Karen Di Piazza


Capt. Chuck Nealy has logged more than 22,000 hours of incident and accident free flights in military and airline transport aircraft. Flying military aircraft, he became trained in how to perform simulated flameout (SFO) approaches for emergency landing patterns. That training instinctually came into play on June 5, when he was forced to declare an emergency landing at Chicago Midway International Airport (MDW) in Illinois.
On that day, while flying an Eclipse very light jet, Nealy noticed that both engines were unresponsive to his throttle commands. He landed at MDW, but the engines rapidly increased airspeed as he was running out of runway, forcing him to abort the landing and get the plane airborne.

Several minutes after becoming airborne again, Nealy realized that both engines were stuck on max power. When he shut down one engine, the other engine went to idle mode. Nealy was able to make a successful emergency landing, resulting in no injuries to himself or the three other people on board: his "unofficial" King Air copilot, who was sitting in the right seat getting some jet time; Don Bourn, who owns the VLJ, registration N612KB with Kevin Kiernan (hence the last two letters of the tail number); and an unidentified business associate.

Nealy, who became type rated in the Eclipse as pilot-in-command in September 2007, said he only flies the Eclipse under FAR Part 91 corporate rules for Coronado, Calif.-based Kiernan Companies LLC, listed as the registered owner. The aircraft is managed by nearby San Diego-based Jimsair Aviation Services Inc., dba as Jimsair Charter and Management, which employs both Nealy and the unidentified copilot.

On July 12, the National Transportation Safety Board addressed a letter to the Federal Aviation Administration. The letter stated that just as the airplane was landing at MDW, the Eclipse experienced a failure that resulted in an uncontrollable increase in the thrust from the two Pratt & Whitney Canada PW610F turbofan engines to maximum power. The NTSB noted that the Eclipse 500's crew alerting system (CAS) display showed both left and right engine control failure messages, as the airplane "climbed out following the balked landing" initially at MDW.

The NTSB noted that although the Eclipse 500's airplane flight manual (AFM) and Eclipse's quick reference handbook (QRH) provided an emergency procedure for a single-engine control failure, no procedures were available for dual-engine control failure, which occurred in this incident. "Had it not been for the resourcefulness of the pilots, the visual meteorological conditions that prevailed at the time, and the airplane's proximity to the airport, the successful completion of this flight would've been unlikely," the NTSB stated.

The VLJ was operating on an instrument flight rules flight, flying from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport (CLE) in Ohio to MDW, 266 nautical miles for the planned one-way flight. Nealy said that after referencing Eclipse's emergency procedures in the plane's QRH and finding no procedure for dual-engine control failure messages, he aborted the landing. The NTSB's letter said that the pilot flying the plane reported that as the airplane was crossing the runway threshold for the initial landing attempt, it encountered a 10- to 15-knot wind shear and developed a high sink rate, which the pilot arrested by applying power.

According to the NTSB, Nealy stated that as the airplane landed at about 83 knots, he retarded the throttles to idle. About three seconds later, he lightly touched the brakes to slow the airplane down. Although the throttles were at idle, the airplane was accelerating rapidly through 100 knots.

The NTSB also stated that the pilots said they retracted the flaps to the take-off position and retracted the landing gear as the airplane was climbing out from the balked landing. However, because the airspeed continued to increase through 190 knots, the flying pilot lowered the landing gear again to try to increase drag and slow the airplane. He stated that even with the landing gear down and the flaps in the take-off position, the airplane continued to accelerate. To remain below 200 knots, which is the maximum operating speed for the flaps and landing gear, the pilots had to maintain a shallow climb.

The NTSB also noted that the dual-channel failure of both throttle levers occurred after the airplane had accumulated only 238 hours and 192 cycles since new. The throttle levers are part of the throttle quadrant assembly. The safety agency said it's concerned about the reliability of an assembly that fails in such a short time. The board also found that when the "failed throttle quadrant assembly was replaced, pushing the throttle levers on the replacement unit against the maximum power stops, [it] caused a right engine control fail message" to appear on the CAS display. "The immediate failure of the replacement part suggests that there may be a design or quality problem in the Eclipse 500's throttle quadrant assembly," the NTSB stated.

The NTSB advised the FAA to require an immediate inspection of all Eclipse 500 airplane throttle quadrants "to ensure that pushing the throttle levers against the maximum power stops will not result in an engine control failure." The NTSB further advised that it should be required "that any units that fail the inspection be replaced and that the replacement parts be similarly inspected (A-08-46 urgent)."

The NTSB additionally recommended that Eclipse Aviation Corp., manufacturer of the Eclipse 500, be required to immediately develop an emergency procedure for a dual-engine control failure on the Eclipse 500 airplane and to incorporate the procedure into the airplane flight manual and quick reference handbook via an airworthiness directive (A-08-47 urgent).

Later that evening, on June 12, after the NTSB put heat on the the FAA, it issued an "emergency airworthiness directive" (AD), directing plots, rather than aircraft maintenance personnel, to evaluate the E500's throttles, to determine if they needed repair or replacement as necessary, prior to flight. By 6 a.m. EDT, charter operators DayJet Services LLC and North American Jet Charter Group reported that its aircraft used in commercial, FAR Part 135 air charter were cleared for flight.

In a June 13 email to Industry Headline News, Vicky Harris, DayJet spokesperson, said, "The maintenance and flight operations teams were prepared and responded efficiently, completing the required fleet inspections before the start of our revenue operations at 6 a.m. The safety of our flight operations wasn't compromised, and not a single customer was disrupted."

On June 24, Eclipse Aviation announced in a press release that it would make design improvements to its aircraft's software, to increase the range limit of the plane's throttle quadrant assembly, to prevent the fault condition. Pending the FAA's approval, software updates will be disbursed to all Eclipse 500 owners and operators.

Nealy Fills in Eclipse's CPC Gaps

On June 9, four days following the Eclipse VLJ dual-engine failure, the plane maker issued a "customer pilot communication" for "informational purposes only." (Reference our June 12 report, "Eclipse 500 Jet Twin-Engine Control Failures Investigated"). However, when interviewed from his cell phone while at a construction site on June 11, Nealy said he didn't receive Eclipse's CPC until that morning. "First thing this morning, we flew the aircraft from San Diego to Telluride," he said at the time.

Regarding Eclipse's CPC, Nealy acknowledged, "It leads you to believe that I sustained a force on the throttles in excess of 30 pounds. That's not what occurred. When we were in the landing, we were less than 100 feet above the ground. We encountered a wind shear. I lost between 10 and 15 knots of speed, as the aircraft descended rather rapidly. The typical recovery procedure for wind shears is to add power."

He said the wind shear at landing made being less than 100 feet above the ground an unsafe condition, so he increased power, to avoid hitting too firmly or possibly causing damage to the airplane. "Using the recovery procedure--adding power--is how this situation developed," he said. "I added a small amount of power, but it seemed insufficient to overcome the sink rate and speed loss, so I pushed the power up firmly. I don't remember hitting the mechanical stop--the end of the thrust lever. I just pushed it up and immediately brought it back to the three-quarter-power position. That stopped my speed loss, reduced the sink rate and allowed me to make a normal touchdown at MDW."

Nealy said that after he did, he reduced the power to idle--the normal position of flight on the ground. "This all happening very, very fast; I was viewing outside, not inside the airplane, at that moment," he explained. "Typically, you check your brakes to see that they're working. I applied a very light touch on the brakes to ensure they were fine; if you do a very hard brake at a very high speed, then you'll blow the tires. You'll skid them, and they'll skid through a hole and deflate."

The Eclipse VLJ doesn't have anti-lock/anti-skid brakes. His opinion is that if the aircraft had this braking system, it might've helped. "You can operate without the anti-skid, but inexperienced pilots can blow tires even without having the conditions that I did, because they may be overanxious to get on the brakes," he said.

He said the landing gear tires didn't blow when he landed, as some reports have suggested. "When I first applied the brakes, I realized that I wasn't slowing down," he said. "I couldn't feel the effect of braking; there was no appreciable sensation of speed reduction due to braking. In fact, I felt no speed reduction. I reached over and raised the flaps from the landing to the take-off position, in an effort to try to reduce lift and decrease speed, or increase weight on the wheels. I then gently reapplied the brakes, but we weren't slowing down."

Meanwhile, as the plane was going faster and faster, Nealy was careful to stay on the runway, looking diligently outside. "I looked at my airspeed, and instead of what I had anticipated--a decrease--it was rapidly increasing to 90 to 100 knots," he said. "I couldn't get that sensation of braking."

Thinking he had brake failure, Nealy looked at his engine instruments. "I determined that the engines were at maximum operating thrust!" he said.

Since the engine/software fault mode was caused by invalid position signals, the system logic held the engine thrust settings at the last known throttle position, which was at maximum. "Yes, it [the system] was talking to itself, and it determined that there was a logic that was set up for this particular malfunction," he said. "It worked, but the system didn't anticipate something like this occurring (dual-engine failure). At that moment, there was nothing I could do about it. I had airspeed; I was running out of runway, so we took off."

Once airborne, with power accelerating and both the left and right control engine fail messages displayed, Nealy and the copilot immediately checked the QRH. But there was no procedure on how to handle this emergency, and the aircraft was "uncontrollable." He said that in the event of uncontrollable power, it could occur at maximum or minimum power, depending on where the fault occurs. In his case, the fault occurred at maximum power on both engines.

Preparing for Flameout

Nealy's vast piloting expertise saved the day. In the Air Force, he was captain of the four-engine Lockheed C-130 Hercules and the Lockheed C-140 (known as the JetStar.) He also flew the T-39 Sabreliner, T-29 Convair, T-37 and T-38. His lifelong flying career includes flying the Boeing 737, 727 and MD-80 airliners as captain.

That day at MDW, Nealy did some familiar maneuvers to keep airspeed under control. He also said having a pilot next to him allowed for the most advantageous outcome. While he was adjusting gears and flaps, the copilot read a caution in the Eclipse's QRH: if you change your flight conditions, the engines could flameout. "When I realized that was the case, I maneuvered the aircraft into a very familiar procedure," he said. "It's a simulated flameout approach--what the military calls ‘fly in circles.' That's an approved practice in the military with certain aircraft, which I've preformed many times."

The plane was uncontrollable and accelerating as Nealy did a visual maneuver, trying to come back around, with the plane's airspeed in excess of 190 knots. He knew he had to shut down an engine. "I had to reduce thrust," he said. "I had to reduce my power. My throttles weren't effective; the only alternative method I had was to shut down an engine. The speed was between 190 and less than 200 knots when I turned the one engine off. Then I began my maneuver to try to get back to MDW for landing."

As he was making his maneuver, the plane's speed decreased rapidly. "My airspeed was on order of 90 knots," he said. "I had to bank the aircraft immediately. I lowered the nose and tried to gain airspeed; I kept looking at power, trying to add power on the operating engine--the left engine. But the left engine wouldn't respond to the throttle movement; it had gone from max power to idle, where it remained unresponsive to my throttle movement."

A stall warning confirmed that the situation was serious. "It's a feature designed in the aircraft that alerts the pilot that a stall is approaching," he said. "You're not in a stall, but a stall is approaching."

Nealy said that with one engine on idle, he and the copilot remained calm. "I had to make Midway, and there are a lot of houses, a lot of population," he said. "The only place for me to safely get on the ground was Midway. So, I traded out altitude for airspeed; the only way I could do that was to descend. I came down and reduced bank, because I didn't want to stall the aircraft. It was very important not to stall. If I stalled, I wouldn't be having this conversation with you. I had no room to recover; that's my my job. So I did what I had to do to get the plane down safely."

During the ordeal, Nealy was constantly manipulating airspeed, which he gained and then lost. Once the airspeed increased, he'd stop the descent by gradually pitching attitude. "The plane would slow down slightly, but as soon as I got the stall warning notice, again, I pushed the nose down to get more airspeed," he said. "In other words, I'm riding right on the verge of a stall warning, until I got to a point where I realized that I could make the runway. I was going to touch down on the ground--I was going to land on that runway! When this was occurring, I lowered the flaps to landing position, pushed them, as it reduced my stall speed, and increased my drag. This procedure ensured I would touch down on the runway in control. I knew I was going to make the runway, so I pushed the nose forward to get as much speed as I could to use for flair. And a normal touchdown was made--not firm, not hard. The landing gear tires absolutely, positively didn't blow with touchdown; I could tell they were flat when I landed. There's a sensation that you receive from the tires not being inflated, and the tires were flat, in my opinion."

There's been controversy about when the Eclipse's tires were blown. Nealy believes the tires did not deflate on the original touchdown, but deflated during the first landing at MDW, as he was rolling down the runway and the plane's engines were stuck on max power."When you have a normal landing, which we did the first time, you expect power to decrease, not increase," he said.

When asked what he thought might have been the outcome, without a copilot that day, Nealy replied, "I've thought about that. You know the aircraft is certified for single pilot; I can't overemphasize that this was an unprecedented, unanticipated event. I'm not saying that the aircraft should be operated with two people. I'm telling you that Eclipse is, I believe, working diligently to address this issue and come up with a procedure that a single pilot can operate with. Had I known about this event prior to my experience and training, procedures would've been in place that a single pilot could probably, easily take off and deal with the situation. I believe Eclipse, the FAA and NTSB are working on that right now."

Nealy added that having an extra set of eyes--another pilot next to him--definitely helped him to expedite decisive action.


Note for the blog. For those of you who were kind enough to contribute background information that informed this piece, and for owners and pilots of E500's who would like to contact her direct, Karen asked that I publish her private email, Karen@bizandaviationpub.com. Other journalists have covered this story, but none with the focus that she has. I can also confirm that Karen continues to do so, despite pressure from parties 'associated' with ABQ. Finally, I hope this helps explain the length of time between 'headline' posts. I thought it was worth waiting for, I hope you agree.

Shane

236 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 236 of 236
Dave said...

Eclipse as a corporation is no longer viewed as a US citizen:
In addition, Eclipse states that it entered into a transaction with ETIRC Aviation, S.a.r.l., a Luxembourg S.a.r.l. (ETIRC), by which ETIRC will own more than 25 percent of the voting interest of Eclipse. As a result, effective February 15, 2008, Eclipse, the holder of a Dealer’s Aircraft Registration Certificate, no longer meets the qualifications of a U.S. citizen corporation as defined by 49 U.S.C. 40102(a)(15).
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/ContentViewer?objectId=0900006480406dbe&disposition=attachment&contentType=msw8

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

So $100-150M bought 'more than 25%', and we have heard majority which could mean as much as 50%, maybe even more.

Sounds like Roel set the valuation for Eclipse as $500M or less (could be less than $250M), after well over one billion dollars and a decade invested to produce partially functional incomplete preemie jets.

Disruptive indeed.

Baron95 said...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
So $100-150M bought 'more than 25%', and we have heard majority which could mean as much as 50%, maybe even more.


Where other than mistaken opinions on this blog have we heard "majority". The statements were that ETIRC would become the largest shareholder but not the majority shareholder. That means that ETIRC would own less than 50%, but be the largest single shareholder. Therefore the only thing we can infer is that the post-money valuation, at the time of the investment was somewhere north of $200M. My guess around $350M or so.

Do you have any credible source for "majority"?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Baron, Vern himself said 'substantially more than $100M' in the press, that would seem to be less than $200M or $350M.

Since Eclipse is apparently still suffering late/slow pay to their vendors to such an extent that the vendors are going to Roel, and the figures in the press all seemed to suggest $100-110M as ETIRC's investment, you be the judge.

26% @ $110M yields a max valuation of $423M.

If 50%, it yields a max valuation of $220M.

You have to credit ETIRC with a much larger investment than has been suggested anywhere in public to reach a $500M valuation, yet all suspicions here, corroborated by Verns' statement to the court in the subpeona matter suggests Eclipse has burned well over $1B.

Remember, the valuation is only what the market is willing to pay and nothing more.

As for 'majority' I believe we saw it in the press but at this stage I cannot recall where but I did say 'we have heard' - in reviewing your post though I think we are in basic agreement as to the valuation, I think you may be a tad high but we are in the same ballpark.

A real shame given the decade and $1.XB it took to get to the point to force partially functional incomplete preemie jets on the long suffering 'diehards'.

sparky said...

Baron

"The throttle issue follows a series of setbacks for Eclipse. Earlier this year the Albuquerque-based airframer sealed a financial rescue package with its distributor, European Technology and Investment Research Centre, involving an equity investment described as "substantially in excess of $ 100 million" that gave Etirc founder Roel Pieper a 51% stake and made him non-executive chairman."

Source link. http://jets.ru/monitoring/2008/06/16/eclipse

Looks like roel got more than half the company for less than $200 mil.

I think he got ripped off.

Dave said...

More on the Russian front from here:
First Russian assembling facility will be built in Ulyanovsk. The facility is expected to start working late in 2009. Some 30 aircraft are likely to be produced in the same year.

There certainly is a Russian capital share but Russian shareholders of the joint stock company haven’t been announced yet. I just can say that the plant will be managed by the Russians. At first American experts from Eclipse Aviation will consult the managers, and the assembly team will be of local origin; the number of employees will constitute some 1500 persons by 2012.

The plant in Ulyanovsk will essentially copy the production process in Albuquerque. The plant in the US is currently producing 1 aircraft per day. The plant in Ulyanovsk is planned to produce some 800 aircraft per year.

We’ve got some obligations which are fixed in the investment offer. According to them ETIRC is to initiate localization in time. I believe it a reasonable decision. It isn’t worth producing landing gear in Canada if there’s a plant in Nizhniy Novgorod where hydraulics of high quality is produced for Airbus. The same is true for the aft fuselage: in order not to assemble it in England or America there’s sense in using local facilities. There are components that can be well-made in Russia.



Thus localization will be initiated in 1,5—2 years after production launch when we go through all stages of production certification.

There exists demand for it already. In contrast to the US where 70% of all Eclipse 500 aircraft goes to private ownership and only 30% goes to air taxi, in Russia 90% of all orders come from air taxi operators and 10% from private buyers.

The Ulyanovsk plant output capacity is supposed to be some 800 aircraft per year. We nominally divided potential deliveries into two halves – one half goes to customers from Europe, the other one – to customers from Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan.
I think that setting up a plant in Ulyanovsk will become a stimulus for the development of the air taxi market in Russia.

http://jets.ru/interview/2008/07/07/nikiforov

So there's lots of hype, mysterious foreign investors and Eclipse is yet again selling its existing suppliers down the river. Again for everyone paying attention to Eclipse, Eclipse is claiming there will be 1500 employees and 800 units per year. This is *IN ADDITION TO* Eclipse USA. At least Eclipse lost its US citizenship.

Anonymous said...

Blast from the past:

On January 2nd, 2008, Turbine Power said...

Gunner, by your logic, you should be very concerned about the FADECs that so many modern jets use. Heck, each plane comes with FADECs from the same manufacturer. Do you know that the Mustang actually has two identical FADECs? My goodness! A software bug will crash the plane!

Wow, how prophetic was that? Nearly came to pass on the Eclipse 5 months later!

Come on boys; stop being so silly.

I don't think Captain Nealy thinks this is silly!

I think we should go back and review all TP's posts to see what else he called silly, since that is probably a good indicator of what may happen in the future.

airtaximan said...

"I think that setting up a plant in Ulyanovsk will become a stimulus for the development of the air taxi market in Russia."

where have we heard THAT before?

step-2:
I think stting up an air taxi business that orders 1430 jets from eclipse will become the stimulus for customer demand for air taxi service in Russia

If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

airtaximan said...

psst...

anyone care to comment on the "labor issue" over at eclipse, where US gov't officials are NOW investigating the TC, which is NOW owned by foreigners.

hmm... articles about ramping up a manufacturing plant in Russia, and of course shuddering the US plant (the "non-manufacturing" plant) probably do wonders for the moral in ABQ, and also probably add fuel to the fire that's been lit underneath the TC.

Dave said...

I think stting up an air taxi business that orders 1430 jets from eclipse will become the stimulus for customer demand for air taxi service in Russia
If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.


I'm wondering if what Eclipse/ETIRC are doing is even legal. ETIRC is essentially ordering from itself (ETIRC orders from Eclipse whom Eclipse then sends the orders to ETIRC) and then using its own orders for hype and as "proof of concept" to borrow from Edspeak. Eclipse didn't even go this far with the original DayJet scam as at least DayJet was a separate company rather than an Eclipse manufacturer.

airtaximan said...

Dave,

I made the same ETRICK comment way back. They are ordering planes from themselves to make it look like they have orders...

I guess the european order of 200 (was it?) looked better coming from ETRICK than euro-eclipse... didn;t someone recently post that ETRICK was essentially a name change of eclipse's european outfit...

I wonder if eclipse had the plan to "white lable" an air taxi operation, and then "sold it" to Pieper who could hype it under ETRICK.

Now he's ordering planes from himself...

Soon, I am sure we'll hear of Dayjet trying to license their failed business model, to raise some scratch from a greater fool, somewhere else.

Getting pretty messy.

Dave said...

I guess the european order of 200 (was it?) looked better coming from ETRICK than euro-eclipse... didn;t someone recently post that ETRICK was essentially a name change of eclipse's european outfit...

That was me. Here's my source:
The extraordinary general meeting is opened by Mr Robert Shyirambere, employee, residing professionally in Luxembourg,
acting as Chairman, and appointing Mr Hubert Janssen, jurist, residing professionally in Luxembourg as secretary
of the meeting.
The meeting appoints as scrutineer Mr Hubert Janssen, prenamed.
These three individuals constitute the board of the meeting.
Having thus been constituted, the board of the meeting draws up the attendance list, which, having been signed by
the proxy holder representing the partners and by the members of the board and the notary will remain attached to
the present minutes together with the proxies.
The Chairman declares and requests the notary to state that:
I. According to the attendance list, all the partners representing the full amount of the Company’s share capital of
EUR 50,000.- (fifty thousand Euro) are present or validly represented at the meeting. The meeting can thus validly deliberate
and decide on all subjects mentioned on the agenda without there having been a prior convening notice.
II. The agenda of the meeting is the following:
1) Modification of the name of the Company in ETIRC AVIATION, S.à r.l.
2) Subsequent modification of Article 2 of the articles of association of the Company as follows:
«The Company’s name is ETIRC AVIATION, S.à r.l.»
3) Miscellaneous.
The meeting of the partners having approved the statements of the Chairman and considering itself as duly constituted
and convened, deliberated and passed by unanimous vote the following resolutions:
First resolution
The partners’ meeting resolves to modify the name of the Company in ETIRC AVIATION, S.à r.l.
Second resolution
The partners’ meeting resolves to amend Article 2 of the articles of association of the Company in order to reflect
the above resolution and to give it the following wording:
«The Company’s name is ETIRC AVIATION, S.à r.l.»

http://www.etat.lu/memorial/memorial/2006/C/Pdf/c0998225.pdf

Also in regards to DayJet they have mentioned licensing the software as well as operating in Europe. I think DayJet is part of the Eclipse/ETIRC scam.

airtaximan said...

where does it say the former name was eclipse?

also, perhaps "they" used the name eclipse, but it was not an WAC company..

do tell more...

Dave said...

where does it say the former name was eclipse?

Here's another paragraph:
Was held an extraordinary general meeting of the partners of the company ECLIPSE AVIATION EUROPE, S.à r.l.,
having its registered office at L-1258 Luxembourg, 16, rue Jean-Pierre Brasseur, duly registered with the Luxembourg
Trade Register under section B number 95.627, hereafter referred to as the «Company», constituted by a deed of the
undersigned notary public on August 28, 2003, published in the official gazette Mémorial C, Recueil Spécial des Sociétés
et Associations dated October 8, 2003 under the number 1.044, page 50.066.

The whole point of the "extraordinary general meeting" was to give the company the new name.

airtaximan said...

Eclipse Aviation Europe... back in 2003;

any clue who "the partners" were at the time? 2003 and 2006

airsafetyman said...

"It isn’t worth producing landing gear in Canada if there’s a plant in Nizhniy Novgorod where hydraulics of high quality is produced for Airbus. The same is true for the aft fuselage: in order not to assemble it in England or America there’s sense in using local facilities."

But who is going to certify these components? The same FAA dude that signed off on the FADEC? He may very well find himself in Ulyanovsk after the dust settles from the DOT investigation.

Dave said...

To follow this with ETIRC to see the scam, I guess it would help showing the steps:
1. First there is the order from ETIRC to Eclipse (pumping the Eclipse order book, which the orderbook size is explicitly mentioned):
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/index.php?option=com_newsroom&task=viewarticle&id=1271&Itemid=51
2. ETIRC then uses its own order as proof of demand:
http://jets.ru/interview/2008/07/07/nikiforov

Currently Eclipse and ETIRC are playing both sides - Eclipse using the orders as saying there's demand to justify the US factory projected output, while ETIRC is simultaneously using the same orders to justify the Russian factory. Eclipse should remove the 200 ETIRC orders from its orderbook and ETIRC should admit that it ordered from itself. If as Eclipse and ETIRC claim to be dividing up territories between what belongs to Eclipse USA and what belongs to ETIRC, then they should show separate orderbooks, which would separately justify each factory.

Having two factories that are supposed to be extremely high production, Eclipse/ETIRC now need twice as much proof than just having one factory that's supposed to produce 600+ per year. I have yet to see proof that there's sustainable demand for 600+ units per year with just one factory and now each factory has to be separately profitable while selling only in certain territories rather than worldwide. Who is going to buy 600 units in the Eclipse USA terrority and who is going to buy 600 units in the ETIRC territory?

airtaximan said...

rhetorical question, right?

Dave said...

rhetorical question, right?

Seeing ETIRC order from Eclipse while ETIRC is setting up a factory to handle the same orders, it reminded me of this:
http://www.toprealtynews.com/realestatenews/id_22814/
http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2003-120.htm
http://www.forbes.com/2002/05/16/0516topnews.html

Seeing Eclipse being associated with all the shadiness it has, it is no wonder Eclipse hasn't had an IPO.

Also on the DayJet front:
Mr. Penksa reported that DayJet recently announced company wide layoffs and cited difficultly in raising
capital to finance continued expansion. Local staffing levels will reflect the current demand for services.
He stated that approximately 30 – 35% of the local work force has been furloughed. The Board briefly
discussed the revenue impact if DayJet ceases operations.

http://www.gra-gnv.com/docs/062608ag.pdf

So in two Gainesville meetings, they've talked about Eclipse and DayJet in less than a positive light. The last one was posted by someone on here about Eclipse not paying its bills:
http://www.gra-gnv.com/docs/052208ag-w.pdf

airtaximan said...

I mean, its rediculous to think eclipse will ever need 2 non-manufacturing plants to produce the e500 and/or the conjet.

... just l;ike it won't ever need 2 landing gear suppliers...

I can almost see the FSW gantry machinery moving accross the Pacific in huge crates marked затмение

I personally do not think it will get that far.

And, for those of you folks thining BK would save anything... think again. I'm sure Vern and Pieper have already covered that with debt financing structured in favor of ETRICK, licensing, foreign ownership interests, etc...

Huge quagmire in BK.

Just reading between the lines, here...

airsafetyman said...

So while the FAA may be forced by the DOT to pull the Type Certificate and Production Certificate, Eclipse turns itself into a foreign corporation and plans to build airplanes in Russia under the same FAA TC and PC? At the same time they want to substitute whoever East Bloc vendors of the day for whatever current Eclipse vendors? That about it? Where can I invest?

airtaximan said...

... and produce 600 planes a year for 10-20 years.. of which they sold around 1,000 (I'm being nice, here) plus another 1600 to themselves and one other operator who has just put off putting all but 10 planes into service any time soon?

What is plan B? Build it and they will come, did not work.

Build it and they will come to Russia?

Dave said...

What is plan B? Build it and they will come, did not work.
Build it and they will come to Russia?


Remember with Vern his defacto motto is "ignorance is strength." He tries to persuade people that ignorance of the aviation industry is a strength and he does this by trying to get inexperiened aviation investors and clueless politicians to think that hiring people without aviation industry experience is a good thing too. Just because Vern has tapped out his marks in the US, but there's plenty of marks still worldwide. That the combined Eclipse/ETIRC is more fantastical than the already fantastical Eclipse alone is no barrier to Vern as Vern simply has no shame.

airtaximan said...

Dave,

was eclipse europe owned by Eclipse USA, or was it owned by ETRICK? or both, in 2003.

What happnd other than a name change in 2006?

Dave said...

was eclipse europe owned by Eclipse USA, or was it owned by ETRICK? or both, in 2003.
What happnd other than a name change in 2006?


These questions I don't know the answer to, but frankly I don't see a good answer as far as Eclipse is concerned.

Dave said...

Here's Esther Dyson's Flight School blog where there's details about DayJet and there's even a mention that she's invested in ICON (no surprise):
http://www.edventure.com/flightschool/blog/

I don't know if there's any correlation or not, but Esther Dyson mentions Russia as being one of the areas where she's a business catalyst:
http://www.edventure.com/

Anonymous said...

Re: ETIRC orders

I'm suddenly feeling a sense of déjà vu.

The Eclipse press release

...and a slightly different version

gadfly said...

It don’t matter, no how! The “Russians” can own it, the “New Mexicans” can own it, a consortium of Penguins at the southern tip of “Cape Horn” . . . even “Esther Dyson’s School of Modern Dance and Very Light Jet Aerobatics”, etc., can own it . . . it still don’t matter, no how . . . the little bird isn’t a complete “bird”, until it’s “complete”. And even if the FAA says it’s complete, we now have reason to doubt their word.

The fact is, the “bird” is not what it was promised to be . . . and until it “is”, the discussion remains on “hold”.

gadfly

(So There!)

airtaximan said...

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20020601/24256.html

yes, anonym..

this is the seminal article written about EAC and Vern's antics... The author asks: "why would any legitimate outfit make such a scummy deal, with a non-existant air taxi company" in my words, of course.

I would ask the same question, and keep asking, and asking until I receive a reasonable answer.

Apparently, Vern thinks a defunct dot-com online jewelery auction house IS an air taxi company.

Enough to take its penny stock for a 1000 plane order.

enough said

gadfly said...

If life were “just”, we could all walk away at this point, knowing that the justice system in New Mexico, and “elsewhere”, would make all things right. But we have become cynics over the years . . .it is a sad part of the history of New Mexico. If nothing else, it is a warning that New Mexico is not the best place on earth to prove a point. We do, after all, have a very long history . . . extremely long, compared to almost any other state.

Up until now, there have been no winners. If Eclipse wins this round, it will be a “first”. The “legal system” supports the questionable . . . but sooner or later, justice prevails. It is truly an “oxymoron” . . . I’ll leave it at that!

gadfly

(‘Big mistake for Eclipse to come to New Mexico . . . very big mistake! It all seemed so simple . . . a bunch of ignorant idiots in a backward state . . . very big mistake! . . . ‘not so stupid after all. Where is "Billy the Kid" when we need him to testify? . . . 'not a good place to play "funny" in court.)

20yearmechanic said...

AIRTAXIMAN
anyone care to comment on the "labor issue" over at eclipse, where US gov't officials are NOW investigating the TC, which is NOW owned by foreigners.



We aren’t working until the 10th, down in SP11. Nobody cares about the new co/owners overseas because most are leaving and if they are staying around, they hope for a trip to Russia. Most of the 6 week wonders have never left ABQ and an overseas trip to work would be a dream come true. FAA has planed an audit in about 2 week or sooner from what we hear. BUTLER staffing cant afford to pay there people and have asked VOLT to take over there staffing contract so most of the contractors that worked for BUTLER will now be getting there checks from VOLT. That’s all I got 4 U this week.

20 YM

gadfly said...

Without boring most of you with the details of the old joke about the slow witted man watching the blacksmith; who hands him a “red hot horse shoe”, and the poor guy immediately drops it and says, “It don’t take me all day to look at a horse shoe” . . . so it is that the news from “20 year” doesn’t take all day to “figure it out” . . . we’re obliged to recognize that we have “observed” the “red-hot” horse shoe . . . it would appear that Eclipse is (pardon the pun) “toast”.

Yeh, I know it’s a “temporary” thing . . . right! But when “management” says something about moving to Russia, I’d figure it’s time to let go of the “horse shoe” and find another line of work. Working with “New Mexico” bears is no small thing (my own son-in-law and the “Fish and Game” dealt with, captured, and re-located a “250 pound bear ‘just this week” . . . the bear was not a happy camper ( . . . an extreme understatement), and dealing with the type from Siberia might not be so “friendly”.

From my observation, I believe that controlling a “Russian Bear” is probably less successful than controlling a “New Mexico” bear.

gadfly

(It’s only a matter of time until someone “pulls the plug” . . . it doesn’t appear that Eclipse is drawing enough current to “pop a breaker”, even though many have already “blown a fuse”. And for those who may be concerned, the New Mexican bear was relocated to the Gila (pronounced: "HEE-lah")wilderness, a couple hundred miles to the southwest . . . with a “GPS” collar and transmitter. ‘Think about a 250+ pound “boar” bear, standing at your patio sliding door, at 3AM . . . after having been shot a half dozen times, earlier, with “rubber” pellets from a semi-automatic shot gun . . . issued by the Fish&Game. He probably was in a similar frame of mind as a certain “president” of a local light-jet assembling operation. I wonder if the “GPS” collar was a Garmin 400.)

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

To add to 20Yr's statement about Butler International.

I have it from multiple people in mid-level and executive management at Butler that Butler International is in the process of dropping all non-paying clients - with several into them for well into 7 figures of payroll.

Butler has been struggling for several months and the key contributor has been late accounts in the 7 figure range from a few problematic clients and the corrective action is to cancel/not renew non-paying accounts.

Butler is not transferring their performing clients.

To be clear, these people did not in any way name Eclipse, or any other specific OEM for that matter, as not paying their bills - but you do not have to be a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

Make of it what you want but I don't believe in coincidence where Eclipse is involved.

gadfly said...

Where there’s smoke, there may be fire. But to give the story ballance, there once was a "good" bear in New Mexico.

“Smokey Bear” is native of New Mexico, and “Smokey Bear” is the “good guy”.

gadfly

(And No, it is Not “Smokey THE Bear” . . . simply a real life bear cub,“Hotfoot Teddy”, seriously burned . . . then rescued from a burning tree, first a “mascot”, then re-named “Smokey Bear”, the symbol of the US Forestry Service (1950-1975 . . . buried in Capitan, NM, in “Smokey Bear Historical Park”). And now you know the “rest” of the story.)

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shane Price said...

Gentlepersons,

New headline post up, hope you enjoy reading it as much as I did putting it together.

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread, especially those who've done so for the first time.

Finally, thanks to Karen Di Piazza for permission to use the article in the first place.

Shane

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