Friday, June 20, 2008

Time to reflect

I'm in a happy mood. Summer is upon us, the kids are on school holidays and business is good. We, on this small island off the west coast of the continent, gave the European Commission a lesson in the power of democracy, even if we'll have to go again next year to reverse our No vote, but it'll be fun while it lasts.

The blog moves from strength to strength. More posts, from more people, are attracting attention. Try using Google to search for Eclipse Aviation and see how high up we rate. Most times, we are just a few lines below Vern's home page, so that anyone doing the simplest of research on the aircraft is bound to find 'us'.

Things are a bit darker down ABQ way. The 'Midway Incident', which the thought police at EAC initially attempted to hide, has grown into a full sized crisis for the Vern. Deep questions are being asked about the control systems and some pretty fundamental design issues are being dragged (kicking and screaming) into the open.

I've been tempted in the past to make an entire headline post out of your comments, but felt I was being lazy just for thinking along those lines. However, the quality of some recent posts is just too high to ignore. I also think it right to plot a path through recent events, as recorded on the blog. The selection below is by no means comprehensive, and I apologies in advance for those of you I could not include. My comments, highlighted in black, are intended to provide some (limited) context for those new to the blog. 

From 'Dave' June 8, 2008 11:16 AM

I think we've got front row seats to watching something hitting the fan...and that something isn't piles of money reaching the rafters due to Eclipse's profitability. Owners and position owners have got to wonder what Vern is hiding from them given how Vern seeks to silence any talk of problems with the Eclipse.

That just about sums up what the blog thinks of Vern's wasting what little cash remains chasing bloggers through the courts.

From 'Black Tulip' June 8, 2008 2:24 PM

Thank you again Gunner. We've offered to send more lawyers, guns or money, and so far you've said you don't require additonal assets. Please let the bloggers know if we can assist in this noble effort.

Just a reminder that Gunner has stood up to the plate, big time, against nosey egotists who don't like critical oversight. I like the bit about sending more lawyers and, especially, guns...

From me, June 10, 2008 12:46 PM

I have a feeling that it's the little things that will cause meltdown in EAC. I suspect that the little ROUND things with air in them might, just might, be the excuse the FAA need to 'review' their position on the FPJ.

I was of course aware of the Midway Incident when I wrote this. The time stamp is therefore important. Checkout the following, which came from a 'one time' poster.

From 'airjet' June 12, 2008 4:04 AM

2. SUMMARY:
An Eclipse 500 pilot recently experienced a dual engine control failure after applying forward force on the throttle levers resulting in exceeding the design throttle range of operation. This situation resulted in an inability to control engine thrust through normal means. Eclipse is working with the NTSB to investigate this occurrence, but is issuing immediate guidance to Eclipse 500 pilots to avoid excessive forward throttle force against the throttle stops.
3. BACKGROUND:
Following a reported windshear encounter on final approach, an Eclipse 500 pilot applied full throttle using enough force against the forward stops to result in exceeding the design throttle position signal maximum range. This out-of-range position signal for both throttles subsequently activated the ENG CONTROL FAIL CAS message for both engines. Since this fault mode was caused by invalid position signals, the system logic held the engine thrust settings at the last known throttle position, which was maximum.
Following a balked landing, execution of the L(R) ENG CONTROL FAIL checklist, and shutdown of one engine, the pilot was able to return around the pattern and land the aircraft with no injury or substantial damage, although both main tires were blown during the event. Initial throttle quadrant testing indicates a force in excess of 30 pounds against the forward stops is required to cause the out-of-range condition.
4. ECLIPSE ACTION:
After becoming aware of this occurrence, Eclipse immediately notified the NTSB and FAA. An Eclipse Safety Investigation Team was dispatched to the aircraft and is currently participating as a party to the NTSB investigation. In accordance with NTSB rules, we cannot divulge details of the investigation, but we are aggressively working to determine the root cause and implement permanent corrective actions. We are also working on an immediate Temporary Revision (TR) to the Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) to address this situation. In the meantime, we have determined that communicating this issue to operators now is essential in preventing a similar occurrence.
5. RECOMMENDED OPERATOR ACTION:
Eclipse 500 operators should avoid applying excessive force to the throttle levers against the
forward throttle stops.

The lesson here is, read my posts carefully. When I hint at big trouble looming for EAC, the storm clouds are gathering...

'Shadow' on June 12, 2008 12:46 PM

Oh, how I love to watch a cash arsonist at work.

This was in the 'Have they no shame' post, after Vern had pulled the 'DayJet positions' stunt, but before the FAA Emergency AD. It was only a single line, but it summed up the situation perfectly.

'Avidpilot' hit the nail on the head, again, on June 13, 2008 8:37 AM

So Shane, if you knew about the incident of both engines on the Ecliplse getting stuck wide open upon a FADEC failure, then that means Vern knew about it before he made the special offer. Of course, he notified his customers of this incident and the possible AD that might be issued prior to sending in their $650,000.00 non-refundable deposit, right?
I think was all know the answer to that.
By the way, position holders I know say they had almost no time to think about the offer due to the sense of urgency that was created. Now we know why.


So, in just under 3 days, we went from 'blown tires' to 'cash arsonist' to 'emergency AD'. My, how time flies when you are enjoying yourself....

That's a summary of recent, key events. If I have left something critical out, include it in this thread. Let's not lose sight of what we are about here, and keep moving on.

448 comments:

1 – 200 of 448   Newer›   Newest»
airtaximan said...

We are always guessing who knew what when... but we know a few things regarding timing, from piecing things together.

Vern always asks for money before he admits to grave problems.

Do we have this excitement with the other OEMs?

Case in point.

Dave said...

Speaking of Midway, here's a transcription of a conversation between the NTSB and Eclipse about the analysis of NVM:
NTSB: How much can you decipher?
Eclipse: Fifteen percent.
NTSB: Really decipher?
Eclipse: Ten percent.
NTSB: That's one word in ten, Eclipse! You're *guessing*!
Eclipse: We like to call it "analysis."


Also Vern is known to say this about reporters:
If it's Midway, I'll *bushwhack* 'em!

Dave Ivedorne said...

here's a transcription of a conversation between the NTSB and Eclipse about the analysis of NVM:

Who are Eddie Albert, Hal Holbrook, and Glenn Ford?

I'll take "obscure cultural cross references" for two hundred, Alex.

-------------------------------------

We, on this small island off the west coast of the continent...

Back in college, I worked with a mechanical genius from England. When it was desirable to get him riled up, I'd refer to him as being from "a small island off the coast of France".

Worked every time.

Would you like the combo?
IANAL

Dave said...

Here's a picture of the FPJ throttle quadrant:
http://flickr.com/photos/35457376@N00/531638385/
And here are pictures of the FPJ FADEC:
http://flickr.com/search/?q=fadec&w=35457376%40N00

Dave said...

Who are Eddie Albert, Hal Holbrook, and Glenn Ford?

I was hoping that someone would get that I was quoting from "The Battle Of Midway" in the derivation of my quotes for Eclipse's Midway incident...I wasn't just pulling quotes from any old war movie.

Dan Swanson said...

I'm afraid that this will reveal my inside connections at E-clips, but I can't believe how cheap the photos of the Eclipse panel and controls look. I have seen kids make Flight simulator cockpits that are higher quality. My guess is they copied the design of Microsoft Sidewinder products.

John said...

Day Jet Utilization, June 14-20

Craft … June 14-20
160 … 15:27
150 … 14:21
161 … 11:59
156 … 9:52
147 … 8:18
146 … 8:11
142 … 7:35
145 … 6:50
152 … 6:46
139 … 5:26
162 … 5:20
163 … 4:50
158 … 1:47
109 …
110 …
115 …
116 …
119 …
126 …
130 …
131 …
132 …
134 …
135 …
136 …
141 …
148 …
153 …
Total … 106:42

Half price special from KSRQ and KJAX have pushed these two ports up the utilization scale.

departure .. June 14-20
KGNV 18:13
KBCT 16:49
KSRQ 13:47
KJAX 7:44
KOPF 6:21
KTLH 6:09
KAPF 5:49
KPNS 4:05
KSAV 4:00
KVNC 2:11
KPFN 2:06
KLAL 1:58
KPQL 1:52
KAUO 1:36
KDAB 1:32
KMAC 1:31
KOCF 1:26
KNEW 1:24
KSGJ 1:10
KCAE 1:03
KCSG 0:53
KPIE 0:51
KISM 0:46
F45) 0:45
KMTH 0:45
KMGM 0:32
KVLD 0:31
KEYW 0:30
KBQK 0:23

Dave said...

Half price special from KSRQ and KJAX have pushed these two ports up the utilization scale.

...And down the profitability scale. The more money DayJet is willing to lose, the more people that will be willing to help them lose it. No doubt their using this sale to pad their numbers in hopes of tricking an investor.

20yearmechanic said...

Hi Shane and the to the Post.

Juicy news from deep inside the factory. DATELINE SP- 11, position 1.

There was some S**T hitting the fan, an inspector found DEEP DRILL STARTS in the stringers and frame in the lower keel section of the A/C section before it was moved to position 2. After farther review, this was not the only one this happened to. Several others where found with the same DEEP DRILL STARTS in this location. OH OOOO! SOMEONE WASN’T USING A DRILL STOP.

Turboprop_pilot said...

Thanks, Dave for the Flickr pictures. I noticed that they are Ken Meyer's photos and looked through all 132- lots of Eclipse, Mustang and 340 shots- interesting enough to look over. I kinda miss Ken...

Turboprop_pilot

Shane Price said...

Rumblings reach me from poor(er) suppliers.

Seems monies promised, by none other than the Chairman of the Board himself, Roel Pieper, have, how shall I put this, failed to arrive.

What can this mean, I ask myself? It strikes me that if suppliers now have to be appealed to by Roel, they must have given up on Vern's promises.

The delay in monies from ETRIC must also point to some doubts coming from that direction. After all, recent events have put a question mark over the original TC and PC from the FAA, as well as making EASA certification almost unobtainable without major work on the FPJ.

Check out FlightCentres work on deliveries. Its on the home page here, 'Eclipse 500 Order History' under Links. A major hole has opened up, especially since the ConJet was announced. According to Vern, '100' position holders have moved, which means than many fewer who can be called upon for their 60% progress payments.

I should also make readers aware of several people seeking return of their deposits. In at least two of these cases, Eclipse Aviation have REFUSED to part with the money.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I smell a cashflow crisis in ABQ....

Shane

airtaximan said...

no matter how you try to spin the conjet story, it smells of only one major event...

The aboandonment of the E500. At least the attempted abandonment of the e500.

The worst case is somehow a middle ground result, where they need to continue to make a few hundred for another year or two, and then switch to an orderbook for the conjet that is not much greater than the e500 was.

Is it good news anyone switchded to the conjet? Nope, this just cannibalizes the e500... it does not increase the net orders.

Even if they obtain an additional few hundred orders for the conjet... its still not worth the development of a new plane.

Raising the e500 price, another nail in the coffin.

Any reasonable person will see this plane is going to have problems, likely more problems than one would anticipate from another company. They are new, and they are shall we say, lacking in the area of quality.

By now, the just north of $100M infused by ETRICK is probably all but gone even if it all actually went in.

Vern admits they lose money on every plane... and I'm sure its not $250 per plane. I'm convinced, all included, its more like $1M per plane based on 200-300 a year production.

Unless (and do not count them out on this) they arrange for a lot more financing, again... we can probably forget the August court date.

;)

It just makes no sense.

baron95 said...

Dave said...
Here's a picture of the FPJ throttle quadrant


Thanks for the pictures, Dave. Nice collection from Ken. Looks like he did his homework going around comparing the early VLJ entrants. I sincerelly hope things work out for him and his wife with their EA500.

As for Eclipse's prospects, my guess is that they need another $400M-$500M cash investment to hold them off till they get the EA500 (kind of complete) and the EA400 in production.

The only way they'll get that kind of money is by a new investor coming is and jaming the previous investors to get most of the equity. Even that is highly doubtful unless Eclipse comes out with a string of good news.

It is remotelly possible that Eclipse can raise the money if they come out in short order with "FIKI is done", "G400Ws are in production", "50% of the fleet has been retrofitted", "tire problem is fixed", "Certification is Brazil, Russia, China is done". It is a tall order, but if they can't claim this by the end of this year while continuing to pump out 10-20 planes/month they will not get the investment.

airtaximan said...

baron,

plus, they need some real orders...
a lot of them.

Shane Price said...

A recent report...

I was flying (charter passenger in a xxxx listening to ATC radio transmissions) in Florida on 6-20-08 and at 10:00am Dayjet 162 requested lower altitude due to a “problem with the yaw damper”. I fly charter several times a year and always “listen in” and have never heard about a problem with an aircraft in flight (rare events). The FPJ was my first. I hope they get this thing fixed before somebody gets hurt.

I've blanked out the aircraft type to keep confidence with the contact.

Needless to say, the chap who sent me this is a regular reader, and is unlikely to be a DayJet customer as a result...

Shane

airtaximan said...

Shane...

its simple...

there are lots of problems with this plane.

We have not heard about most of them, I am sure.

It's almost over... unless they provide more fuel for the fire.

That's it.

airtaximan said...

I almost hate to bring up the bogus order book again, but does anybody know how many of the non-dayjet orders are from ETRICK?

Simple math - Dayjet were 1430 of 2600 or so...

that leaves 1170, or so.

From that, we can imagine ETRICK was at least a few hundred, right?

They have transferred 100 to Conjets... and delivered 30 or so?

Even IF we believe Vern's order numbers (and I suspect they are exaggerated to the degree the rest of his claims were)

2600-1402 (Dayjet received 28, then pooped)- 300 deliveries to day; or so leaves?

798, less ETRICK. Thats, for all intents and purposes "nothing" for ABQ and Russia production factories. "Crock", comes to mind.

I would estimate, conservatively, that Eclips has at most, only around 400-500 "orders" left for the e500. After this year, if they keep going, they will have around 200-300 orders left for all of 2009, and beyond, with no real prayer for any more orders...since the e500 is at $2.X million and above, nowadays.

And at the old price, they admit (big deal for them) they lose money on every plane.

DOA - never made a cent on the e-500... never.

I fully expect a shutdown in the next 8 weeks, or some financing miracle. The miracle involves the removal of Pieper and or Vern, so I suspect, its ballgame over. There's really no logical plan that results in profits for this product or company.

Just my opinion.

Anyone hearing of Dayjet attempts at financing? I imagine they are trying anything at this point. Anythng at all... Revamping, reducing prices, anything... luring international partners...anything. Without Dayjet, Vern is sunk.

airsafetyman said...

"I fully expect a shutdown in the next 8 weeks, or some financing miracle. The miracle involves the removal of Pieper and or Vern, so I suspect, its ballgame over. There's really no logical plan that results in profits for this product or company."

I think you are right on the money. If the Vernster has conducted himself with class and dignity and listened to people who had been doing this all their lives and who in no way were closed to innovation or new ideas, he would have legions of fans on his side. With their attitude they had as much chance of having a success as Beech or Cessna would in making a world-class laptop computer - on the first try - while reinventing all the components inside as well as the software. It's over.

20yearmechanic said...

KOB TV NEWS REPORT KOB.COM

Eclipse president fires back at the NTSB

ALBUQUERQUE (AP) - The president of Albuquerque-based Eclipse Aviation says the National Transportation Safety Board has grossly exaggerated a problem with one of Eclipse's very light jets.
Federal regulators have ordered the immediate inspection of throttles on small personal jets manufactured by Eclipse after one plane made an emergency landing in Chicago.
The Federal Aviation Administration issued an emergency order late Thursday requiring inspection of all Eclipse 500 aircraft throttles and replacement of malfunctioning ones before each plane is flown again. The FAA said the Chicago incident had shown that the throttles for the plane's two engines could remain stuck at full power if pushed forward with enough force.
Eclipse president Vern Raburn says the NTSB issued an urgent press release and urgent safety communique on something Eclipse had already taken care. And he says that to call the aircraft unsafe is "at best a massively gross exaggeration and at worse it's just an outright lie."


THE NEWS STORIE LINK
http://kob.com/article/stories/s476994.shtml?cat=504

AWW YES VERN is making friends in the government.

ABQ 43
Double Eagle 24
Gainseville 35
Albany 22
NO, These are not local temps, these are the number of aircraft parked as of 4:00pm tonight. AND YES I AM IN ABQ today and I was at Double eagle at 11:30 am today so I know that it is now a FACT! They are now parking planes at Double Eagle Airport as one suspected they would.

AvidPilot said...

Well, I seem to recall many bloggers here have said that eventually all E500's will end up as boat anchors, lawn ornaments or paperweights.

Judging from the numbers 20yrmech saw on the ramp, it sounds like that scenario might be happening sooner than later.

;-)

Charity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave Ivedorne said...

on 6-20-08 and at 10:00am Dayjet 162 requested lower altitude due to a “problem with the yaw damper”

DJS162 was not airborne at 10AM EDT. At 10:18, it departed Opa-Locka for Valdosta, with the flight plan apparently filed for FL380. It spent about 9 minutes around FL340 before starting a descent to FL240 at around 10:57 EDT - just after a hand-off from Miami Center to Jacksonville.

It would be possible for a person to look at their watch and mistake which number the "little hand" is pointing to.

What is the FPJ's ceiling with an inop yaw damper?

Charity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FlightCenter said...

124 Eclipse 500s parked outside of Eclipse's US service centers. That is 124 out of a total of 193 aircraft delivered.

That makes 64% of all customer owned E500 aircraft parked on the ramp outside US service centers.

That doesn't count the ones that are parked in owner's hangers or elsewhere. (European aircraft would have to make it to the Madrid or Amsterdam service centers, if they have opened for service.)

The retrofit schedules for all the other IOUs like the NG retrofit will have to be reset once again.

The engineering team will have their priorities rearranged to redesign FADECs and throttle quadrants. The schedules for EASA, FIKI, Garmin 400W, entertainment packages, lavatories, and other commitments are bound to slip as a result.

On top of that, they have to handle 124 owners calling everyday to find out when they will get their bird back in the air.

It must be a stressful experience working at an Eclipse service center now that 64% of the birds have returned to the nest.

It would be reasonable to assume that there are not enough spare throttle quadrants available to replace the throttle quadrants that fail the test.

One wonders how many throttle quadrants are being removed from the production line inventory to satisfy the AD demand.

Those are hard tradeoffs to make. Do you delay shipping new Eclipse 500 aircraft to depositors who have been waiting for 7 or 8 years?

Or do you ask new owners of recently grounded aircraft to wait while new E500s continue to roll off the production line?

baron95 said...

20yeroldmechanic said ....
ABQ 43
Double Eagle 24
Gainseville 35
Albany 22


Thanks for the info 20YOM - that is 124 out of some 200 planes delivered (some 60% of the fleet) parked. It is either a very good sign or a very bad sign. It would be a good sign if Eclipse had the capacity to work on upgrading all these planes at once. It would be a very bad sign if owners are just refusing delivery, taking only symbolic delivery or refusing to fly the planes till they are upgraded. Unfortunatelly it all points to the latter.

baron95 said...

AT said ... I fully expect a shutdown in the next 8 weeks, or some financing miracle. The miracle involves the removal of Pieper

I doubt removal of Pieper is possible. I'm sure his "rescue" investment is well secured by preferred equity, convertible and secured debt, etc.

I'm pretty sure Etirc will end up with 90%+ of Eclipse's equity very soon.

You can almost think of ETIRC's latest investment as similar to a Debtor in Posession financing deal. It was a total carm down.

Either way I don't think the "end" is that near. From all the reports, it looks like suppliers are still delivering parts and Eclipse is still delivering and upgrading planes.

I think their day of reconing only comes after the end of the year. Remember, they have locked in all position holder through the end of the year.

After the end of the year, though, all new deliveries are at the new price. Question is, how many people would rather walk away from a $150K deposit rather than sending progress payments and taking delivery by paying the $2M ballance for a jet that can be bought for $1.M in the used market.

If the plane is substantially finished, they'll sell some, if it is not, sales will stop cold/hard.

Notice that Eclipse priced the EA500 at $2.15M which is exactly $2M above the deposit. My guess is that it costs them $2M to deliver a jet. So after the end of the year, they'd be colecting money from one jet to pay for the next with no headroom left.

FlightCenter said...

Dave,

I'm not buying your suggestion that government funding was somehow or other responsible for the fiasco that was the Eclipse / Williams relationship.

There is plenty of blame to go around on that fiasco without involving the government.

Things started going wrong when Williams and Eclipse decided to create the EJ22 derivative of the FJ22 by boosting the FJ22 thrust to 770lbs. (No government funding was involved in that effort.)

Williams created a point design engine and Eclipse designed it in. There wasn't any margin in the EJ22 design to boost thrust if the aircraft gained weight.

Inevitably, the E500 gained weight, and enough weight that Eclipse asked Williams to create a variant of the EJ22 engine with at least 825 lbs. of thrust.

Williams told Eclipse that they couldn't reliably push the design to deliver 825 lbs. of thrust.

Eclipse terminated the agreement with Williams knowing that they would probably need more than 825 lbs. before the design was frozen.

It turned out that they needed an engine with 900 lbs of thrust.

Bad decision 1 - paint yourself into a corner.

Instead of accepting responsibility for his failure to meet the E500 target weight, Vern manufactured claims that the Williams engine wasn't reliable.

And it seems he got away with it to a large extent. Even here on the Eclipse Critic blog, you regularly see posts that are based on the assumption that Vern was telling the truth about Williams and that Williams was largely at fault for the engine fiasco.

The reality is that much of the rest of the aircraft's design was significantly behind schedule and Vern needed to buy more time for the program.

Williams was a convenient scapegoat.

epilot said...

Dave said: What is the FPJ's ceiling with an inop yaw damper?

It's 20,000 ft.

Shane Price said...

Dave I, got this in the email this morning:-

Dave ivedorne is correct, it was not airborne at 10:00am EDT but is was airborne at 10:00am CDT (11:00am EDT) which is what my watch was set to. Sorry for the confusion.

Flight,

No doubt Williams were the fall guys. But don't forget that WE have not forgotten that 'first flight' which was used to 'convert' the customers money. Once that little FPJ wobbled around for 40 minutes, the deposits became non refundable...

Vern will never get a free pass here!

Shane

Turboprop_pilot said...

when you add in the 16 Dayjets that are parked, it is 70% of the fleet!!!!!!! Thanks, Vern, for the disruptive jet. Who woulda know it would disrupt the owner's flying

Turboprop_pilot

airtaximan said...

fc,

I've heard it once from Mouse I believe that the ej22 worked fine...

I really don't believe it. So many tiny parts...

A crazt configuration for a small turbine...

I think the engine had sever reliability problems, as in cruise missile reliability, instead of man-rated relaibility.

I think EAC knew this, and flew to get the deposits... heck, if they had to, they could have used missile engines for that flight.

They took the money, and blew off WI.

Just my thoughts.

I would love to know if the FJ22 worked... at any thrust, reliably... and then, why no one is using it?

airtaximan said...

baron,

"Question is, how many people would rather walk away from a $150K deposit rather than sending progress payments and taking delivery by paying the $2M ballance for a jet that can be bought for $1.M in the used market."

I thought these guys were offered refunds, based on the price increase?

Let me be clear... I thought anyone who did not fork over the 60% payment, was forced to accept the $2.1M price or they could ask for a refund of their $150k deposit.

Alternatively, they could switch to the conjet... and leave their $150k riding on the conjet.

Do I have this correct?

BTW, if I am correct, I find it almost impossible to believe that EAC did not lose 100-200 clients this way... that is, IF they actually had around 1,000 individuals, and around 400-500 left with the 60% deposit yet placed.

If they exaggerated the order book, beyond the Dayjet-inflation, it could be that there are only 200 or so folks who did not place the 60% deposit yet. In this case, we already know that Vern admits 100 of them switched to the conjet.

I'd say, the E500 is pretty much dead... at most there's 300-400 left to build. At the very least there's around 200-300.

After that... nada.

Gunner said...

AT-
I don't believe Eclipse went into this announcement with even 500 deposit backed, non-contested, individual orders on the books....in total.

No facts to back that up, other than the Company's insatiably pathologic penchant for hyperbole and untruth. That and the fact that we once calculated a best case number of 800.
Gunner

Dave said...

I'm not buying your suggestion that government funding was somehow or other responsible for the fiasco that was the Eclipse / Williams relationship.

Perhaps I should make myself clear that it is Eclipse who is destructive to associate with not the other way around. Private/public partnerships can be quite successful, just the way things have been handled with Eclipse has been really bad. Being associated with Eclipse only results in money going down the drain.

Things started going wrong when Williams and Eclipse decided to create the EJ22 derivative of the FJ22 by boosting the FJ22 thrust to 770lbs. (No government funding was involved in that effort.)

Williams GAP payment was based on the Eclipse contract, though Eclipse might have screwed that engine up with their faulty FADEC programming like how the faulty programming resulted in Midway.

I'm saying that government agencies should stay away from Eclipse unless they want a boondogle, not that contracting with competent profitable companies would result in the same thing as Eclipse.

airtaximan said...

gunner,

so based on your thinking...
170 delivered (plus 28 to Dayjet)
100 switched to conjet
leaves 530 "orders" left for the e500, less the number of folks who already dared to pony up the 60% deposit. Everyone else can switch to the conjet or ask for a refund, or pay $2.1..right?

- Does anyone remember/know how many this is? (I am asking, how many folks placed the 60%? Based on their wild delivery predictions, I'd say almost all of the outstanding position-holders - especially if they are backfilling Dayjets deliveries.

In any case, the number of non-60% customers must be a really small number. Plus, Vern says 100 already switched to the conjet.

Two relevant aspects:
1- not many 60%-ers left, maybe 100-200 max... therefore not much new money coming from deposits any tme soon.
2- not many deliveries left in total, if they ever get to one a day, they have enough "orders" to perhaps build jets through next year. Maybe.

I would be very surprised if 100 folks did not ask for their deposit back, if there was the chance to do this and if there really were a few hundred unlucky folks who had to choose between the e500 at $2.1 and the conjet.

I would say that if even 50 customers asked for their depopsit back, this is a huge percentage of the outstanding position-holders who were offered the "deal".

Bottom line, there's no real future for the e500 - no enough customers to make it work, even at $1.5M, guess how many at $2.1M... much less.

There's no real reason to build any plant in Russia, and no real reason to get to one a day production.

BTW, does anyone remember how many "orders" ETRICK had/has? I seem to remember 200 or so, for Turkey alone??/ Do I have this right? If this is the case, there are almost no "real" orders left, in the sense that a real order is a non-fleet "deal"... one with a deposit for every plane, so to speak.

airtaximan said...

Dave,

You know, I agree with what you say, except for one aspect.

If the government is somehow involved (or was) with eclipse, it should be understood that this is not a commercial enterprise. I do not think the government was involved in order to make a profit, they were pushing technologies which they somehow figured no one else would fund.

The gov't was probably sold on the idea of funding the disruptive engine technology, that no one else would really do it. And, it was somehow an enabler of an aviation revolution... the good kind.

No one told them that there was a reason the majors did not get involved themselves in the tiny engine development. The reality is probably that they saw the plane powered by the tiny engine was not really good for much. Maybe 100-200private owners a year, and at that, there's no revolution. There isn't even low cost from scale/volume.

I am not sure, but perhaps the lesson here is simple: the government should stay out of the way. One could conclude that the FJ33 was the right engine, not the smaller technology demo-engine the government funded.

Had Vern developed a taxi-plane around the FJ33, perhaps the market would have adopted this larger, more capable plane as a taxi? One could argue, the "cost" of the engine was not the driver... it could have been forward-priced on a curve, and I bet it would have been in the ballpark of the PW engine at 900lbst anyway. I could go on, but my point is...

The government was involved with a non-commercially viable engine program... and Vern did not seem to understand this. The DOA e500 seems to prove this point.

Dave Ivedorne said...

Williams GAP payment was based on the Eclipse contract, though Eclipse might have screwed that engine up with their faulty FADEC programming

The only way Eclipse "screwed that engine up" was by attaching it to an overweight airframe. Maybe they should have done a tri-jet (and called it the Eyass). On second thought, no - Vern should have stuck with paper airplanes.

This is not to say that the engine would have held up to long-term service - it would have required considerably more development for anybody to even know. Maybe we'll find out some day; probably not...

Dave said...

The government was involved with a non-commercially viable engine program... and Vern did not seem to understand this. The DOA e500 seems to prove this point.

Why are you saying we disagree on this point? Once Eclipse got involved it lead to the whole project going up in smoke.

Turn-and-Burn said...

You guys really are a bunch of idiots. Someone says that 124 planes are in service centers and you believe it. Shane said recently that an Eclipse lost an engine while taxiing and the pilot watched it skid across the ground, and you believed it. Someone claims suppliers aren't being paid and you believe it even as parts are being delivered to manufacturing. Airtaximan still thinks there was hope for the EJ22! Some nobody says that DJS162 experienced a yaw damper problem and you believe, it even though they didn't descend below max yaw damper fail altitude of FL200 and the flight aware profile looks like a normal climb and descent.

Like I said, what a bunch of idiots.

Gunner said...

"Someone claims suppliers aren't being paid and you believe it"

You were doing OK with the rant up until that point.

So, Turn-and-Burn claims there is no supply chain or supplier payment problem at EAC....right.
Gunner

Shane Price said...

Turn and burn,

Yes, we might be 'a bunch of idiots', but since we are right more often that EAC are, what does that make Vern?

Shane

Dave said...

You were doing OK with the rant up until that point.
So, Turn-and-Burn claims there is no supply chain or supplier payment problem at EAC....right.


Actually TAB didn't refute a single thing. TAB merely offered insults. By the way TAB by Vern's own admission Hampson continued to deliver parts during the payment dispute, so your rants aren't exactly high quality rants.

Dave said...

Yes, we might be 'a bunch of idiots', but since we are right more often that EAC are, what does that make Vern?

Right. To qoute Star Wars: "Who is more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows the fool?" We might be foolish, but at least we haven't gotten on the Eclipse scamwagon.

airtaximan said...

Airtaximan still thinks there was hope for the EJ22!

read my posts, I would never even suggest such a thing.

...and whoever based an aircraft on that engine is nuts. Its too small, and too technically risky.

PS. you offer nothing to contradict the other opinions you cite...

please enlighten us TB.

AvidPilot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
baron95 said...

epilot said...
Dave said: What is the FPJ's ceiling with an inop yaw damper?

It's 20,000 ft.


Well, per Shane's request to speak in clearer language so as not to confuse the casual blog readers.... it is not really a ceiling, it is the Max Operating Altitude with Yaw damper INOP or off. Simply means that acceptable directional and/or lateral stability was not demonstrated during certification above FL200 and/or the autopilot functioning was not demonstrated without yaw damper above that altitude. [Note: this appies for both as well as one-engine operating]

Just didn't want anyone [however unlikely] to leave with the impression that the EA500 is unable to climb above FL200 with an INOP Yaw Damper.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Lets not feed the Troll.

baron95 said...

AT Said ... Let me be clear... I thought anyone who did not fork over the 60% payment, was forced to accept the $2.1M price or they could ask for a refund of their $150k deposit

Yes, AT, that is my understanding also. Let me clarify my point/assumptions. after the price increase there was a cancellation/E400 switch window (was it 2 weeks?). Like you, I do expect that the VAST majority of people that could get refunds and walk out did so with a few switching to the E400 (assuming that deposit is refundable before first flight). That would leave maybe 100 or so EA500 order for 2009 and later delivery that do not have the 60% payment and now have a non-refundable deposit.

My point is that if, after the end of the year, when there depositor start getting asked for 60%, then full payment, the EA500 is still not complete most if not all would walk for the $150K.

Sorry if I caused any confusion.

baron95 said...

AT said ... - Does anyone remember/know how many this is? (I am asking, how many folks placed the 60%?

Vern stated recently (in the E400 conversion letter) that ALL 2008 scheduled deliveries had already made the 60% deposit. Earlier in the year (or late last year) he said that 2008 production was going to be 425 (IIRC it was actuall ya range that was given). So my guess is that they collected progress 60% progress from 425 or so depositors, delivered 75 or so planes and have anoter 350 dpositors on the hook with 60% progress payment in (these include the midnight special customers that took advantage of the late 2007 offer).

Obviously they won't deliver that many in 2008, so it will stretch a bit into 2009.

baron95 said...

Re the EJ22. I really think it was a case of "youthfull enthusiasm" on the part of both companies.

GAP called for a small/light turbofan with mostly a paper submission and a requirement for a flying article with milestone payments. Williams developed the FJ22 with the PRIMARY GOAL to push the size/weight down. Thrust and reliability were secondary/terciary goals.

Here comes Eclipse promising volume and gets in bed with Williams in a big way (airframe designer, project manager and engine provider).

Williams sees a market, but has a tough selling point to Eclipse, so can't go crazy with R&D. As EA500 PM, Williams sees the plane weight gains and other problems, looses faith in the project and refuses to make big investments.

Vern, believes the engine is like a computer and if they just put a faster CPU it will generate more thurst and goes more and more furstrated. Then starts blaming all the EA500 problems on Williams (as the PM/designer).

When PWC annonces the 600 family, now Vern has an option and boots Williams as engine provider.

My reading is that the EJ22 would have a tough time becoming a reliable enine at the 800lbs level and had no chance one Williams refused to spend the $100M+ needed to develop it.

Instead, Williams die a 3/4 scale of the EJ44 into the EJ33.

Also note, that since developed/proposed both the EJ44 and EJ33 have only spun off derivatives with higher and higher thurst. The market demand/direction is really to take the EJ33 to 2000 lbs and the EJ44 to 3,500 lbs.

Other than Eclipse, there was never any demand for an 800lbs class engine. None.

chickasaw said...

T & B seems to be speaking in the Vernacular.

Boy said...

TB said,
Someone claims suppliers aren't being paid and you believe it even as parts are being delivered to manufacturing.


First of all its not just "someone" claiming that, its A LOT OF SOMEONES. Just because parts are still arriving at Eclipse doesnt necessarily mean they are paying their bills. It generally means that suppliers are fronting those parts. I have to wonder if suppliers do that because they dont want their company name run through the mud. If a company was to stop sending parts, Eclipse wouldnt hesitate to rant about them publicly and bully them for "stopping production". I think suppliers are in a catch 22 there.

Boy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

I have to wonder if suppliers do that because they dont want their company name run through the mud. If a company was to stop sending parts, Eclipse wouldnt hesitate to rant about them publicly and bully them for "stopping production". I think suppliers are in a catch 22 there.

That's because Eclipse believes contracts are what you use against people. The less one has to do with Eclipse, the better. If you're a position holder they'll take your money and not deliver or just plain take your money while if you're a supplier they'll take your parts and not pay or worse yet drag your name through the mud. Also if you're an employee they'll spy on you and even threaten your family. Its toxic dealing with them.

airsafetyman said...

"Shane said recently that an Eclipse lost an engine while taxiing and the pilot watched it skid across the ground, and you believed it."

I believe it was an engine cowling, T&B, and yes, I believe it. But I am kinda dumb that way. Tell you what, though, YOU ship a lot of parts to Eclipse on credit and let us know how easy it is to get Roel to pry open his checkbook.

Dave said...

Tell you what, though, YOU ship a lot of parts to Eclipse on credit and let us know how easy it is to get Roel to pry open his checkbook.

It's not like Roel hasn't been tied in with fraud before. I believe his excuse last time was that despite being chairman, he was ignorant of what was going on. Do you think people would fall for that excuse a second time?

airtaximan said...

notce the dates... notice they initially planned a single, notice the dates for the FJ33... interesting history.


"Century Aerospace announces twin engine Century Jet.

Las Vegas, NV, NBAA Convention, October 19, 1998: – Century Aerospace Corporation unveiled their new twin engine Century Jet 100 today at a press conference / unveiling ceremony at the National Business Aviation Association’s 51st Annual Meeting and Convention at the Las Vegas Convention Center. The new Century Jet 100 will be powered by twin Williams International FJ33-1 engines, the latest member in the family of reliable, efficient powerplants from Williams International.

The original Century Jet was to have been powered by a single Williams / Rolls FJ44-1 engine but new advances in turbine engine technology have now made it possible to offer a twin engine jet with operating costs lower than other single engine jets.

The new Century Jet 100 offers low operating costs, a cruising speed of 370 kts, a 1,500 nautical mile range, generous baggage storage, an optional lavatory and a comfortable six-place cabin – all for approximately $2.38 million – a cool $1 million less than the closest twin jet competitor.

The Century Jet outperforms every cabin-class piston and turboprop twin aircraft in speed, altitude and operating cost per mile. It offers a maximum altitude of 45,000 ft – twice as high as most cabin-class piston twins. In addition, it costs 19% less per mile to operate than single engine jets, 48% less than twin engine jets and 81% less than twin engine turboprops.

“The key characteristic of the Century Jet 100 is its simplicity,” said Dale Ruhmel, Century Aerospace Vice President of Engineering. “The size and efficiency of the FJ33-1 engines combined with a well-thought-out design minimizes risk and maximizes performance.”

The Century Jet will be certified to U.S. FAA requirements under FAR Part 23, including single pilot operation. First flight of a conformed article is scheduled for 1st Quarter 2000, followed by certification in 3rd Quarter 2001 and deliveries in 1st Quarter 2002.

#######

http://www.centuryaero.com/press.htm

airtaximan said...

"Do you think people would fall for that excuse a second time?"

I think anyone could plausibly deny knowledge of what Vern was really up to at EAC... and I'm not kidding.

20yearmechanic said...

Turn and Burn

If you don’t believe the numbers than come with me to the ABQ airport and I will show you,. Then we can drive across town to Double Eagle and see the count there. (BTW there was 2 more in the hanger at DE that I didn’t even count) If you want the pics of all these planes I would love to send them to you. My counts at Albany are from a long time friend that is on a Contract there with AEROTEK, he has the numbers and could even get pics if he wants. As for Gainesville? I have my people in there too, SO I ASK YOU T&B, WANT ME TO PROVE IT? I have more contacts inside ECLIPSE than anyone on this board GARENTEED! It is all FACT and it is ALL TRUE. I even had pics of the CON JET being built before the numb skulls on the floor at ECLIPSE even knew about it. THE BENNYS of being a 20 YEAR MECHANIC. I also know that there are 12 Mechanics leaving in the next 2 weeks for places like SNC in Denver, and 8 that are going to Charleston SC, to work on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner contract with PLANE TECKS. WTF you want VIDEO and INTERVIEWS? The good mechanics are FED UP and this week was the last straw for most. SO, if you want to call me an IDIOT? Feel free, BUT IM AN IDIOT THAT HAS MORE REAL INFO THAN YOU EVER WILL ABOUT ECLIPSE.

DEAL WITH IT!

Dave said...

SO, if you want to call me an IDIOT? Feel free, BUT IM AN IDIOT THAT HAS MORE REAL INFO THAN YOU EVER WILL ABOUT ECLIPSE.

Note that TAB didn't actually refute anything. TAB might actually be very well-informed, but it doesn't mean TAB isn't being disingenuous. To see that just because someone is well-informed, it doesn't mean they're straitforward, look at Vern's favorite trick that he likes to use on customers - he calls in for their money right before Eclipse announces bad news so he can gobble it all up first.

AESTguy said...

When I first heard about the williams EJ22 with 700 lbs of thrust I was skeptical .. for comparison my Aerostar 6300 lb gross weight with an airframe that was designed to be a jet thin wings, high stall etc, needs two engines each developing 1200 lbs of thrust to perform well. those 350 Hp engines are turbocharged etc. and develop full thrust up to 1200 ft and do not nearly have the derating caused by hot or high. My feeling was that they were going to need a lot more thrust to operate satisfactorily. 700 lbs of thrust equates to a 200 Hp engine with a reasonably efficient propeller.

The fact that the prototype 500 barely got off the ground was confirmation that the 700 lb thrust was a real problem.

I also heard from talking privately to some of the Williams people at OSH that they had spent a lot of money to develop the very light EJ 22 and to increase the thrust reliably was going to require a new engine design and cooler heads at Williams felt that it wasn't worth it.

The only good thing coming out of this effort is that various competitive pressure coming from the E500 and Williams caused P&W to develop the 600 and as a result the FJ33 was born and now there are a lot of people doing good development in the small jet field because there is engines available. The Fox jet and the original jet Aerostar both failed to materialize because there was not a suitable 1200 lb thrust jet engine available at that time.

AESTguy said...

I need to proof read better. the engines on my AEST develop full power up to 17,000 ft

200 hp engines with approximately 700 lb thrust only work on very small twins with fat wings , not a high speed thin wing jet design. The E 500 must have what they now have and looking at other designs 1200 lbs thrust is probably what is needed for good performance.

airtaximan said...

20 year..

hmm... sounds like you've pretty much demolished your NDA.

;)

any clues as to "quality" issues we might want to know about?

eclipso said...

20yearmechanic,

You could be on the Honor Roll if you're not careful (joking).

Some of the statements about made about mechanics and inspectors leaving got some there.
Per Vern, "must have inside information".

He REALLY doesn't know the life of contracting. When Planetech, PDS, or any of the contracts companies call for a reference, it's a no-brainer that they are not just checking on the welfare of those staying.

I hear the 787 gig in S.C is paying VERY well. Perhaps we should put some posts here as the contracts come out. I think a LOT of mechanics will be needing a place to go soon.

Dave said...

I recently saw this on the net:
http://smallbusinessonlinecommunity.bankofamerica.com/thread/2296;jsessionid=150912B7DC92259534CA9BB07A756004?tstart=0
http://www.ideablob.com/ideas/831
http://www.raisecapital.com/search_detail.php?post_id=197
http://www.roadrunnerair.com/
This person doesn't seem to know what they are doing and those in the aviation industry instantly caught that.

julius said...

The days are now getting shorter it's really time to reflect!
V.R. might close his eyes and dream of his plus 150 delivered EA500 and the new challenge EA400.
But it's only v. r. (virtual reality).
Opening the eyes will show him his bad performance as former chairman:
- Company value is about 200 M$ (R. Pieper "owns" about 51%)
- There are only old broken promises for FIKI certification.
- More than 150 FPJ's are to be repaired (FIKI, AVIONG, Garmin 400...).
- No ESA certification??
- European and CIS markets are lost to ETIRC
- There are already 3 AD's and the last one raises questions about the certification process with the FAA.
Is EAC a reliable customer?

How will R. Pieper get any return of his investment - and he will or must try it! This is just another ETIRC-project.

Dave said...

How will R. Pieper get any return of his investment - and he will or must try it! This is just another ETIRC-project.

I wonder how all those NM politicians are going to look when it turns out they didn't do their due diligence and because of that, they used NM taxpayer money meant to keep jobs in Mexico instead winded up financing a technology and job transfer to europe and Russia. How much has the value of Eclipse shares gone done? Investors are taking a hit, but the unofficial investors (all the position holders and those who've received FPJs that have yet to receive everything promised) are getting it even worse.

20yearmechanic said...

MY Friends

I wish I was on the Honor roll,( To that I say BRING IT!) Then I would unload everything I know to the FAA and NTSB, and that is a truck load. You might say that would be my trump card. You ask if I know anything about quality issues? I just dropped some info the other day about the DRILL START Issue in Position 1. I can tell you allot about the quality issues, but why? I’m not at Eclipse anymore, but still have many friends on the inside. I was there when the FAA from Dallas and San Antonio was trying to get Eclipse a Production cert. only to say they aren’t even close to being ready, then getting dismissed and being replaced by FAA inspectors from Washington DC. Amazingly they got there Production Cert within a week, WOW! Imagine that. As for contractors looking for work? www.aviationemployment.com and www.jsfirm.com would be a good start. There are a ton of contracts out there paying $30.00 + so don’t feel stuck at ECLIPSE because you think it’s the only high paying gig in town. The blessing for contractors is you don’t have to roll your box out and go through the check out process because ECLIPSE has supplied the tools. If you guys didn’t know this already, the ECLIPSE SP 11 facility will be shut down for RETOOLING for about 2 weeks. This will put a stop to about 14 aircraft being delivered on time if you go by the 1 a day claim. HA HA HA! There not even close to that yet. This could not have come at a better or worse time depending how you look at it when you consider the entire fleet is grounded.

ANY MORE QUESTIONS? I CAN GET YOU THE INFO. Oh! Note to VERN, NEVER NEVER NEVER call the head of the NTSB a liar. BIG MISTAKE as you now know. Oh, and VERN! YOU MAY BE GOD IN THE ORANGE PALACE, BUT IN THE REAL WORLD YOUR JUST A PESANT LIKE THE REST OF US.

Give Peg a hug for me Vern, she might need one now that she has realized she aint no Carlie Fiorina.

eclipso said...

Contract companies



Advance Aerospace-512-583-0294

Aerotek- 972-348-1829

Airmate-800-669-5627

AIS – 817-424-0893

APA – 888-272-7868, 817-560-6675

Avgard – 817-640-5135

Butler – 972-572-4577

Global – 817-847-6673

Hq Management – 866-447-2376

Onsite – 972-348-1800 (same as Aerotek)

PDS – 800-657-0997

Planetechs – 800-891-9345

Sharp Aviation – 877-460-8065

SMART – 800-842-0891

STS – 800-359-4787


I will re-post with the same and updates as they get consolidated

AvidPilot said...

I wonder how all those NM politicians are going to look when it turns out they didn't do their due diligence and because of that, they used NM taxpayer money meant to keep jobs in Mexico instead winded up financing a technology and job transfer to europe and Russia.

Dave,

I think ATMan nailed a good point earlier with regard to the building of E500's in Russia.

Who, exactly, are the Russians going to be building planes for? Certainly not for America. The demand doesn't exist here - it's been smoke & mirrors from the beginning. The blog has speculated that there were originally around 800 real orders for the E500. About 200+ orders have been (partially) filled. European certification is a long way off, so that market is dead. As far as the other 600 real positions go, Vern has pretty much told the buyers they have to "put up or shut up". How many of these position holders, realistically, are going to ante up 60% deposit or transfer their deposit to the E400? I doubt anyone is jumping in to buy at the $2.15m price, either.

So, these orders have probably gone bye-bye. I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate, just for fun, that there are likely much less than 600 orders for the E500 in existence, world wide. As anecdotal evidence, I heard a rumor that position holders that originally had a serial number over 1000 are now being offered a move up into the 200's & 300's. Unless there are a lot of cancellations, how would it be possible to move up 700 positions?

PS No NDA's being violated here. Just hearsay, rumors, and pure speculation. This information is worth what you paid for it. Vern, you are welcome to jump in any time and let the critics know what is really going on. Or, you can keep quiet and look like a schmuck.

Minority Report said...

Baron95,

The real story was that Sam had taken his FJX-2 engine to all the dinosaurs and tried to convince them to develop a VLJ and a new high volume market using Williams’ new very light engine.

The dinosaurs didn't buy the dream. They were too busy moving their product lines up and to the right.

So Sam decided to stir up the market with a proof of concept jet, to see if that would get the dinosaurs to start a VLJ program using the FJX-2. Enter the V-Jet II.

But that didn’t work either. Not one of the dinosaurs believed that it was possible to develop a 4,300 to 4,700 lb. twin turbofan aircraft.

When none of the traditional aircraft manufacturers showed any signs of ever using his engine, he decided to provide the initial funding to launch an aircraft company that would use his new engine.

He decided an industry outsider was required to launch this disruptive technology aviation company and hired Vern for the job of running Pronto Aircraft. The rest is history.

Here is the timeline:

1993 – Williams starts designing the FJX-2.
1996 – NASA signs GAP engine development agreement with Williams.
1997 – Williams shows V-Jet II proof of concept at Oshkosh
1998 – Pronto Aircraft formed to develop a light aircraft using the FJX-2
2000 – Pronto Aircraft changes name to Eclipse and launches Eclipse 500 using the EJ22.

And the Specs (in early 1999)

FJX-2 Engine Specs: 705 lbs. thrust @ Sea Level, Weight: 85 lbs.

Pronto Aircraft Specs: 4,300 lb. Max Takeoff, 2,250 lb. Empty, 1,210 lb. Fuel, Useful Load 2,050 lb.

NBAA IFR Range w/ 4 PAX – 1,750 nm,
Max Cruise – 385 KTAS @ 37,000
Stall – 69 kts.

$775,000

Dave said...

Who, exactly, are the Russians going to be building planes for? Certainly not for America. The demand doesn't exist here - it's been smoke & mirrors from the beginning. The blog has speculated that there were originally around 800 real orders for the E500. About 200+ orders have been (partially) filled. European certification is a long way off, so that market is dead. As far as the other 600 real positions go, Vern has pretty much told the buyers they have to "put up or shut up". How many of these position holders, realistically, are going to ante up 60% deposit or transfer their deposit to the E400? I doubt anyone is jumping in to buy at the $2.15m price, either.

I'm not necessarilly talking about the FPJ itself, but other ancillary rights, such as the right to export parts and the engine to Russia. There are numerous things that ETIRC could do without actually building FPJs. All of this will be because of the wide variety of taxpayer financing that was meant to keep jobs in the US in general and NM and ABQ in particular, but you've got corruption and influence peddling. Now all that aid is aiding Europe and Russia via ETIRC. Hopefully all the shady deals with politicians and bureaucrats will come to light, so that it will be harder in the future for scam artists to rob the US with the aid of corrupt officials and instead only those deserving will get it.

These guys just don't know how to operate unless there's some type of corruption. Like look at Roel where not only was there corruption at L&H, but there was corruption at Computer Associates where he was an "outside director" although that was his good buddy.

I heard a rumor that position holders that originally had a serial number over 1000 are now being offered a move up into the 200's & 300's. Unless there are a lot of cancellations, how would it be possible to move up 700 positions?

Sounds like DayJet, which Vern has explicitly said weren't cancellations. How do you know Vern Raburn is lying? His lips are moving.

Dave said...

$775,000

Many people forget the original price that Vern claimed.

Shane Price said...

From the last thread, Baron95 asked for the procedure that Eclipse have issued for dealing with the conditions experienced by the crew during the 'Midway Incident'

One of the 'working pilots' was kind enough to send me this:-

In reference to the FADEC problem that occurred at Midway. An emergency Procedure was created by Eclipse.

I don't have it in front of me, but it requires the pilot to reduce the offending throttle to mid range, and then pull the two circuit breakers for FADEC channel A, and reset them. Then do the same for FADEC channel B.

In the Midway example, this should be done, one engine at a time.

You can also tell Baron and the others that advising ATC in the form of a malfunction report, or declaring an emergency, is prudent. FAR 91.3 states that the Pilot in Command is the sole authority for the safety of the flight. This means he can violate any FAR, and do anything that is required to affect a safe outcome of the flight, to meet the needs of the emergency. If the controller says otherwise, the PIC can tell him to "Blow A Goat". The controllers would never need be reminded of this in a civilized country.

In any situation the PIC should get delay vectors or go to a fix in a safe area and altitude. There the PIC should work the problem. It doesn't make a difference how many are in the crew.

Too many times, pilots are afraid to declare an emergency. They think that afterwards, there will be piles of paperwork and reports to fill out. Usually the controller would be happy that he could assist in any way he can, and that you exited his airspace in a safe manner. Nine out of ten times, pilots aren't asked to submit a report. Certain malfunctions are required by NTSB part 830, and are defined within that regulation.

I hope that this will provide some enlightenment on this subject.

I would wait 30 seconds after pulling both circuit breakers, before resetting them one FADEC at a time. This procedure is not a memory item, it's a "Do List".


Thanks to the 'working pilot' who sent me this. I hope that the advice offered is useful to any poor soul who finds themselves in difficulties of this nature.

Shane

fred said...

dave :

##I'm not necessarilly talking about the FPJ itself, but other ancillary rights, such as the right to export parts and the engine to Russia. There are numerous things that ETIRC could do without actually building FPJs. All of this will be because of the wide variety of taxpayer financing that was meant to keep jobs in the US in general and NM and ABQ in particular, but you've got corruption and influence peddling. Now all that aid is aiding Europe and Russia via ETIRC.##


as much as i understand your concerns about bad management of taxpayers money ...

ask yourself a simple question :

" am i sure either Europe or Russia needs NM tax money ?"

the only thing that i can see helped in such is Eclipse itself ...

as it lure some into believing one day they will get really and fully what they have paid for ...

as for Europe , apart the 180 units that was more supposed to be bought by Etirc to do Air-taxi ( unless it it was 1.8 , sounds more like it a plane . 8 sounds very much like vern's job )

in a firm so widely known on some others lands to shout , tout , claim mega-orders as soon as someone pop-in office ...

where are those 180 ? = Gone with the wind ...(and with Easa) !

about Russia :the situation is even simpler , the earning-types are quite simple to be understood , 3 class :

1° rich ones : they would consider the EA500 as a toy , in a country where no one (with money) want to have a 5 centimeters smaller pool , car , boat , etc , etc , than the neighbor ...
how about such a toy ?

on top of it russians are not stupid (may be a bit crazy , but definitely clever ) they understand very well that the price difference between mustang and Ea500 is about to be null as one is going to be allowed ,and for the other nothing less sure ...

2° not rich ones :
before they can only get into such a bird , even as simple passengers most peoples from east US coast will buy ocean front condos in Arizona ...

3° average :
only a small percent (10%~14 %) they are already very busy to own a house and for some to pretend to be able to live on a standard they cannot afford ...

they are the one to go on vacations 1 full month in one year with some extra-week-end to turkey or cyprus ... but as to fly private or own a bird = NO WAY !

NO in both cases (Russia AND Europe ) the plan is not to get there (as there is NO market for such a lousy , unfinished and potentially dangerous thing ) but simply to try US investors err... sorry depositors to believe anything will save the "volume" in order NOT to have to face an ugly truth ...

they are done ! even if they are lucky (?) enough to get one , they will be trapped in some kind of weird scheme where :

* some others will make a fortune to maintain ...

* wife will divorce if you force her in ...

* you don't want your kids in ...

* to get rid of the plane , no need to put an ad , just go straight to junkyard , maybe they will be kind enough to buy it for metal scrap ...

* and finally , you will be scared yourself to get inboard , because no one is too sure to come back safely ...

Dave said...

" am i sure either Europe or Russia needs NM tax money ?"

the only thing that i can see helped in such is Eclipse itself ...


They are the beneficiaries of it through the ETIRC deal. Its not a criticism of those countries, but of the Eclipse and the corrupt officials here.

Turn-and-Burn said...

20Year said... BUT IM AN IDIOT THAT HAS MORE REAL INFO THAN YOU EVER WILL ABOUT ECLIPSE.

Yes, 20Year, you are an idiot and a liar. Send the pics. Put up a link. I'll call you on this one. Anyone can say anything they want on a blog and make up anything they want. But I really don't think even the hard core critics believe you on this one. You now have less credibility than me. Not even a good try.

Turn-and-Burn said...

20year - thanks for sending me the pics of the rows of Eclipses. I take it back. You were right, and so well informed...

http://tinyurl.com/4adbcq

Shane Price said...

Turn and Burn

Thanks for the link.

Unlike the FPJ, the B-52 has

1. A long and successful history, with a bright future ahead.

2. The support offered by a substantial aircraft manufacturing company, with other product lines and business interests.

3. Full avionics, now in their 4th (or 5th or even 6th) version.

4. FIKI, full autopilot, radar (hell, even COUNTER radar!)

etc etc.

There, my post makes a much sense as yours did.

I'm sure I'm an 'idiot'. How about you?

Shane

MetalGuy said...

I wonder how all those NM politicians are going to look when it turns out they didn't do their due diligence and because of that, they used NM taxpayer money meant to keep jobs in Mexico instead winded up financing a technology and job transfer to europe and Russia.

Remember that literally hundreds of millions have been pored into the local ABQ economy because of their significantly smaller investment. Where do you think a big chunk of the $1.X Billion has gone? Salaries spent at local stores is where. It went straight from Eclipses bank right back into the local economy – probably within a week or two.

That’s better than paying the same amount in unemployment checks or food stamps, which is the other alternative. At least this has the possibility of kick-starting the economy down there.

I think the local NM politicians did good on this one and got their return long ago - unlike the other investors who will never see a cent.

fred said...

dave ...

i understood ...!
i was pointing out on thing :
need to be a little more specific !

etirc is only a decoy to trap gullible !

even if the Russians would build the plant , then what would they do with it ?

to import spare-parts , they don't need Vern nor a multi-millions plant ...

nor they need anything coming from Eclipse ...

in order to get the deal done Etirc would need to go before the Douma scrutinizer , and this only is already a very different story ...!

they may be a bit crazy (in their attitudes) , but definitely not that easy to cheat ... they have all the time of the world , all the means , they are not askers and as for political support , well ... they do understand english and are quite aware of the today's world !

i profoundly doubt of any future for EA500 on Russian market ...

as for the european market , if they would like to be certified , they need to change quite a few things , to be able to change those they need cash , in order to have cash , they need to be certified ...

how is it called again in english ?

a loophole ? ;-))


turn and burn , don't forget your paycheck to be withdrawn at :

2503 Clark Carr Loop SE
Albuquerque, NM 87106

the doors on the left at the end of the corridor (just after the toilets)

please be advised to cash it real fast before it bounce ...

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

metalguy ...

##That's better than paying the same amount in unemployment checks or food stamps, which is the other alternative. At least this has the possibility of kick-starting the economy down there.##

being from countries where this is quite common (allowances and pocket money against funds for business makers)

i would suggest the best is NEVER to get your fingers trapped in such mechanism ...

off course , it is always better to give money for some kind of work than for nothing ...

but when you start , you never know where it's going to end-up ...

you give some money for a start-up (EAC is a prefect example) they fail so the charge supported by the community is heavier , so you have to subsidize business even more and so on ...

(one of the worst case i know : France ! where tax taken as Boss tax are of some 100% of net salary , the worker paying an other 24/25% for retirement and health , then at the end of year income tax ...
all of this to supply cash and wages for state-employees which mostly getting better conditions , less work , earlier retirement than the one actually paying the full amount ....!!!)

the key is CONTROL (which the biggest part of my job!)

i am sorry to say , in this case : control has been inexistent ... the one(s) in charge should give some reasons : no reasons ? = you pay back the money yourself or you give the name of the ones who gave you the orders ...

if you stick to this , you never become friends with "politicians" who do not understand the difference between personal pocket and budget pocket ...

but after a while you are well known by the others : "the good ones " !

Dave said...

I think the local NM politicians did good on this one and got their return long ago - unlike the other investors who will never see a cent.

I don't. If it was simply a matter of paychecks, all NM would have to do is draw business names from a lottery to see who gets it. The driving costs in Eclipse aren't labor (they are cost, but not like parts). The underlying investment is trashed and jobs aren't sustainable either. If it was matter of supporting jobs, investing in a service industry rather than a manufacturing industry would be better if you didn't care about losing the underlying investment. However, this is about the underlying investment. Investments weren't meant to be thrown down the rabbithole as a form of wealth transfer. If the intent was to help people out without hopes of getting paid back, a far better return would have been putting the same amount of money into subsidized childcare or some other such thing where 80% of the funding goes to NM families along with small childcare businesses rather than 30% going towards salaries.

Dave said...

you give some money for a start-up (EAC is a prefect example) they fail so the charge supported by the community is heavier , so you have to subsidize business even more and so on ...

That's what I think might be happening with Eclipse and DayJet with DayJet's talk of the available gravy train for NextGen. Propping up businesses via government subsidizies that otherwise are too poorly run to be in business only ends up hurting everyone. Eclipse and DayJet are failed business models and receiving subsidies to keep them undead is counterproductive.

Dave said...

Here's an FPJ european ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z8b8zNYeJo
No mention of lack of EASA certification.

fred said...

dave

i have a hunch on DayJet :

they don't get direct subsidies ...

they made a mega-orders , put that much deposit ...

but in reality the mega-order is much smaller , they didn't put down ANY deposit ...

but they went to banks to say "We OWN that many planes and are ready to mortgage them against a good credit line at what interest you think suited ..."

which is basically what i think is going on in Russia with Etirc !

problem : it is value-backed-up loan on a value which doesn't exist ...

so at the end of the game , the community will end-up paying one way or an other ...

which is some kind of subsidies , but the worst kind because on an already dead thing !

Dave said...

they don't get direct subsidies ...

I think they will get what amounts to a subsidy with NextGen. The federal government will basically pay to keep DayJet in business. Bruce Holmes was hired specifically to do be a lobbyist plus DayJet spends money on other lobbyists.

fred said...

thanks for the link ...

but as usual with EAC :

IT IS ONLY MARKETING !

funny thing :

in the spot the advertise "be 3 hours of destinations " and at the back there is Lyon and Firenze (florence) 2 town which are 300 Nm distance from each other = EA500 = +/- 100 Knots/hour ...

speed which is about 60% of the speed of the train doing a big chunk of the trip ...

ha ha ha ....! good try vern !

fred said...

personally , i think a good lobbyist is a DEAD lobbyist !

it is exactly the same than the work-situation i described in France ...

so many parasites of the system , make the system collapse !

airtaximan said...

dave,

thanks for the link.

Just remember one thing... its a cartoon.

airsafetyman said...

"which is basically what i think is going on in Russia with Etirc !"

The housing scam all over again? ETIRC takes possession of airplanes no one else will take delivery on and then carries the airplanes on the books at a very high value. Then ETIRC goes to the banks to get loans on the wildly overstated value of the airplanes and scams the loan money on bogus Russian plant schemes and proposals? The plans come to nothing but the money is.....gone!The bank will be left with derelicts suitable for guard gates at closed Polish airfields. I ask you, would the Vernster do that? Would Roel do that? No, of course not!

Dave said...

What changes will comprise "full
hardware
specification" in SN 266 that will have Eclipse be FIKI compliant? What else will go into SN 266 that hasn't gone into previous FPJ incarnations?

airtaximan said...

fred,

there are great trains in Europe, and in many places you can drive 100MPH or more...

What's the joke?

Oh yeah, I just saw it on the cartoon!

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickasaw said...

T & B,

Calling 20year an "idiot and a liar" seemed rather harsh. Then 20ym took up your challenge and all you can say is "You were right, and so well informed..."

The least you can do is buy him/her a beer.

fred said...

airtaxi...


wasn't a joke ...!

yes , when i'm on german autobahn* (highways) , i like to speed up a bit with my R8 , but i try never to go over 230 Km/(142 MpH) for only one reason :
i like to overtake polizeï-wagen* (police cars )and smile at them , while they salute me ... ! (this is NO joke !)

what i found hilarious =

it is a cartoon , so need to be real ...! even like that , they couldn't make it right ...

they could have had a car like droopy (the one you see the front , you go take a shower and when you come back , you can start to see the end of the car ...)

no , they made it poorly ...
(for US investors ??)

not very difficult to know this :

Lyon to Italian border = take T.G.V. operating speed 430 Kmh (267 MpH) , after the border i think the train goes slower but count on a good 160 Kmh (100 MpH)

so in its slow part the train would be almost the same speed than plane ...!

as you said it is a cartoon , in reality not sure it would work ...!;-))

* sorry sometimes i get confused between languages ...

fred said...

airsafety...

thanks , i didn't know it was called "housing scam " !

i smell this is what is going on in Ulyanovsk ...

hope they never find out what is a russian when pissed-off ...! ;-))

that would be a good reason why the deal seems to go nowhere ...
they have just to tout a little more that they have "politics" up in the sleeves ....

20yearmechanic said...

Turn and Burn, Send me your Email address and I will get you pics, Ill even give you my phone number and when your in ABQ (If you where you would know Im right because the rows of planes was on the news) You can call me and we can have lunch and take a tour of the ABQ airport and the Double Eagle Airport and you can count for yourself. Then you can listen to my conversation with my friends that work at the other places. NO! They arn't parket on the ramp, They are all out flying RIGHT? Trust me and put your mony where your mouth is T & B. ANYONE IN ABQ want to help me out on this one? Just call CUTTER AVIATION because there parked all around it FOOL.

20 Y M

FlightCenter said...

Eclipse had one of their best weeks for aircraft deliveries last week. The FAA shows that Eclipse submitted paperwork to transfer aircraft registration to new owners on 9 aircraft in the last week.

They have delivered 61 aircraft so far this quarter, making this the most E500 aircraft yet delivered in any previous quarter.

The FAA records indicate that 202 aircraft have now been delivered. Serial # 207 is the highest serial number delivered so far.

With 99 aircraft delivered in 2007 and 103 aircraft delivered so far in the first half of 2008, Eclipse has doubled the 2007 production rate.

This week we are clearly seeing the results of the end of quarter push. If trends from previous quarters hold, they'll have a good week next week as well.

The real test of whether this rate is sustainable will be to see how many aircraft they deliver in early July.

Shane Price said...

Fred,

I've personally timed the GVA - Milan 'Transalpino' at 180Kph (110mph).

In the foothills of the Alps...

Down on the North Italian plain it hits 240Kph (147mph) and appears just to be cruising.

Simple enough to do. Pick a Km marker, start the stopwatch, count 10 of those Km markets, and do the maths.

Its a lovely way to travel, for business or pleasure, city centre to city centre. The food is (generally) good, the trains are on time, First Class is still good value and there is no 'queue for security' or 'check in desk closes 45 minutes before departure'.

Seems silly to me that anyone thinks air taxi will work in Western Europe.

But then, what do I know?

Shane

airsafetyman said...

Fred,

Thats the only thing I can think of. In the US we had a big housing bust. Banks were lending $500,000 on townhouses in slum areas of cities where the real value of the property was $0.00. The bankers pocketed the loan origination fees and every other fee you can think of and the sellers made out like bandits. The banks then sold the mortgage to greater fools until the collapse happened. If this is going on at ETIRC the bankers may be in on it and are trying to insulate themselves by connecting their loans to some off-the-wall development scheme. When the music stops the Russian taxpayer will be left holding the bag, while Vern and Roel sip vino in Monaco.

chickasaw said...

Shane,

You are right about the trains. I took the ICE up the Rhine River on business. What a beautiful trip. Too bad that I was nursing a hangover from Koln. By the way I'm in your time zone now.

AvidPilot said...

Shane,
Having been on the TGV a couple of times out of Paris, I have to agree with your assessment that the E500's, or any plane for that matter, are just not efficient for short hops around Europe. At least not in France.

My observations:
- the trains run on time, to the minute.
- convenient to downtown Paris. I don't know where you'd have to keep your E500 if you are a Parisian - but it isn't going to be anywhere near the city.
- there is good food available at the train stations (unlike most FBO's)
- the trains are very fast
- even a 1st class fare will cost less than the fuel needed for startup and taxi in an E500. There is no initial purchase price, no maintenance, no insurance, no training, etc.
- there are a lot more train stations in France than there are airports. In fact, this applies to all of Europe. The lack of general aviation aircraft is apparent - I saw one helicopter and 1 small airplane within a 7-day period
- no security checks. No baggage hassles.
- no weight & balance issues
- no limit on the amount of friends you can travel with

Sure, if you want to own an airplane in Europe for fun, that's great. But for travel - to me Europe just doesn't seem like the type of place where a short-range personal jet would be in huge demand because there are too many good options available to the traveler.

AvidPilot said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Turn-and-Burn said...

20Year said... Turn and Burn, Send me your Email address and I will get you pics

You don't need me to post the pics. Come on liar. Post photos of 124 aircraft.

Dave said...

You don't need me to post the pics. Come on liar. Post photos of 124 aircraft.

HA HA! 20Year showed you. You chickened out about receiving proof. Thanks for validating what 20Year said!

Shadow said...

T&B, last week you called the NTSB a liar and now you're calling 20year a liar? If nything, at least you're consistent, Vern.

eclipso said...

T&B must've had to first on the Honor Roll list to make it look like he was not in bed with Vern.

Wonder how much "troll" pay is these days

Turn-and-Burn said...

Shadow, never posted anything about the NTSB last week. Make it up?

20Year should post the pics for all to see. I don't need to verify his claims. Let him back it up to everyone. You be the judge.

Shadow said...

T&B, apparently I was being too subtle when I called you Vern Raburn.

Dave said...

Shadow, never posted anything about the NTSB last week. Make it up?

Shadow is guessing that you're Vern. The big clue that was what he was doing that was when he called you Vern.

20Year should post the pics for all to see. I don't need to verify his claims. Let him back it up to everyone. You be the judge.

You're the one who asked him to back up his claims and now that he agreed to do that, you then try and find excuses to back out of it. Your actions verify the claims. 20Year went so far as to offer to meet you in person and you wont do a single thing after you threw down the gauntlet. It looks extremely weak to throw down the gauntlet and then once the challenger picks up the guantlet to then make excuses. Don't throw down gauntlets unless you'll be ready to respond if someone picks them up!

421Jockey said...

I was in ABQ this past week, and I visited the service center and Atlantic Aviation (formerly 7-Bar). There were no more EA50s there last week than there were last November and December. There were 0 EA50s @ Cutter.

Either 20year is a nutcase, or he is getting some real bad information from his friends. Either way, his credibility is "0" in my book.

EX-421

Dave said...

Either 20year is a nutcase, or he is getting some real bad information from his friends. Either way, his credibility is "0" in my book.

Then why did TAB chicken out?

gadfly said...

The greatest argument that might be brought forward in favor of Eclipse is rather simple: ‘Let Eclipse produce at least one complete jet that meets the promises . . . without “INOP” stickers, etc. That’s not asking too much . . . it is merely expecting the company to demonstrate that they are a legitimate company that is worthy of customer loyalty, and the respect of their “critics”.

Every legitimate company has critics, and enemies . . . that is not a problem. But good companies keep their promises and have the “respect” of their critics and enemies.

‘Until that “first” complete aircraft, by whatever name given by “Eclipse” to their little offspring, completes the full list of promises made so long ago, the arguments and excuses will proceed . . . and the immature name-calling and juvenile arguments will continue.

At this point in time, even fulfilling “most” of the promises would appear "a miracle".

Then, we can get on to the many other issues . . . the overall durability of the bird . . . “stir fried welds” (possible inter-granular corrosion, especially in areas near an “ocean”), panels that were “chem-etched” (in desperate attempts to save weight at the expense of skin strength, etc.), quality of riveted connections, electro-mechanical actuators, throttle controls, brakes and tires, “wind screens”, battery capacity and operating temperatures, inherent stability . . . and all those little things that tend to interrupt a pilot’s (and passengers’) attention . . . while making those long 400 mile flights to the next potty stop . . . er, “business appointment” . . . or turning back to the last available service center.

gadfly

(A one-time lie is virtually impossible to remove from the record. Lies are extremely prolific . . . they tend to breed like flies.)

Turn-and-Burn said...

Dave... Then why did TAB chicken out?

I didn't chicken out on anything. I raised, and asked him to post the photos for everyone here to see whether his claims have ANY validity. Apparently they do not.

20yearmechanic said...

My Friends, Shane, and the post

Look Folks, I don’t care if T & B calls me a liar, I will offer this to anyone INCLUDING VERN,
Come to ABQ and lets take a ride to the ABQ Airport and Double Eagle Airport and count chickens. I simply have the most accurate information on what’s going on inside on the factory floor. Hell, I can even tell you what time Todd Fiero emerged from under Vern’s desk, LOL Just kidding. But I can tell you what he had for lunch. That is some solid info and it is burning Vern’s A** up inside. Lets get one thing straight, CONTRACTORS TALK! And after 20 or so years I have work with and know most of them. I can prove 95% of what I say and post (+ or- 5% margin of error) on this blog. I’m not out to Hurt ECLIPSE, I just want them to come clean and stop hyping an aircraft that is an EXPEREMENTAL at best. STOP LYING to these good people that work for them and the loyal customers that have paid good money for this aircraft. Most of these people are good hard working Americans that where hoping to get a cute little jet that they can have fun with and enjoy. If you want to chat off the board or want to take the 20YEAR challenge then feel free to email me. aircraftjobs@aol.com This is not my private E-Mail, but my friend that owns this, will forward it to me. If you want you can also go through Shane Price, He knows how to contact me. Now if you don’t mind, I’m going to have a moment of silence for the great George Carlin who died today. He was a funny and talented man.

20 YM

Dave said...

I didn't chicken out on anything. I raised, and asked him to post the photos for everyone here to see whether his claims have ANY validity. Apparently they do not.

You said send them. That was the first thing you said. Not only did he offer to send them as you requested, but also offered to meet with you as well. It looks you've talked yourself into having zero credibility by suddently developing a yellow stripe down your back.

gadfly said...

Suggestion:

The critic blog is not about the “critics”, nor the “die-hards” . . . there is simply not enough time in life for all the insults “back and forth” between the “bloggers”. The subject is simply, “Eclipse, and the aircraft that Eclipse has promised to deliver.”

Who did what to whom, and what so-n-so said about such-n-such gets a little tedious at times. ‘Keeping focus on the company and aircraft in question might better serve the purpose of exposing the activities in ABQ. But of course, if your purpose is to “hide” the activities of said corporation and aircraft, then by all means, “carry on”. Press on with those personal attacks . . . and demand that they “produce” evidence that is already common knowledge . . . ‘hoping (against hope) to wear down the opposition. But be on notice that the personal attacks show that there is something to hide “behind the curtain” . . . and the rest of us will take notice of your intent. And if that is your intent, then be content.

gadfly

(We’re not as dumb as we look!)

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

I just gotta say I just love internet tough guys.

20yearmechanic said...

421 JOCKY SAID: I was in ABQ this past week, and I visited the service center and Atlantic Aviation (formerly 7-Bar). There were no more EA50s there last week than there were last November and December.

There are 43 out there, They are behind the hanger, some in back of CUTTER and some in the front of the ECLIPSE service hanger. and some right outside of the paint hanger. they are some even right next to that T-39 trainer that ECLIPSE owns. If there where that many there in November and December then fine, you can count as well. 421, IT WAS ON THE NEWS and they said it was 50. I guess I will have to take some pics for all to enjoy. YOU MUST HAVE THOUGHT I SAID 124 outside. That number is between ABQ, Gainesville, Double Eagle, and Albany. Is there not anyone else that lives in ABQ that will stand up and also verify this, come on 421, if you missed that many outside and around ECLIPSE (43) you are blind. When you fly in from the west and come down the runway that is next to CUTTER and ECLIPSE and ATLANTIC, you can see all of them and the rest of them are on the other side of the building.

But really! WHO CARES! THEY ARE ALL GROUNDED ANYWAY and that IS A FACT! Try to deny that one.

20 YM

Turn-and-Burn said...

You are sooo full of it. The L39 is at Double Eagle in the Bode hangar, not at Sunport. Pictures please. If this was in the news, post the URL for the news item. Both print and TV media have web sites. Where is it?

421Jockey said...

20YM,

THEY ARE NOT ALL GROUNDED! THAT IS A FACT!

Your totally incorrect statements make you look like a complete fool. I flew my Eclipse yesterday, and and if you check FlightAware, you will see 10 - 15 in the air at any point in time. How can you say that the fleet is grounded?

If you are referring to the recent AD, I know of only one aircraft that is grounded as a result of that AD. (there may be more, I do not know) It took me exactly 45 minutes to completely comply with the AD and have an airworthy aircraft.

BTW, I agree with you. George Carlin was a genius comic.

EX-421

Dave said...

You are sooo full of it. The L39 is at Double Eagle in the Bode hangar, not at Sunport. Pictures please. If this was in the news, post the URL for the news item. Both print and TV media have web sites. Where is it?

That's nice and all that you're making claims, but between you and 20Year, only 20Year offered proof, which you declined.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

I flew mine a couple days ago. Gonna fly it again tomorrow or the next day. Picked it up from Gainesville. Not nearly as many there as quoted. Guess my throttle quadrant made the grade.

eclipso said...

I have to agree with 421...they are not grounded. Or least not all.

But I still maintain they WERE all grounded with the AD. Again,"Before further flight" always means grounded.

Black Tulip said...

20yearmechanic,

The blog has been the very model of decorum and civility. In an effort to maintain this refined and elevated state, how about this: The blog supports text but not photographs. For aircraft in public view at various airports, why not list tail numbers? No confidences would be breached and a lack of activity on FlightAware would confirm or deny flightless status.

Dave said...

I flew mine a couple days ago. Gonna fly it again tomorrow or the next day. Picked it up from Gainesville. Not nearly as many there as quoted. Guess my throttle quadrant made the grade.

That would seem to validate it that they were there for the AD/maintenance. You weren't the first one there nor were the first to leave.

Al Petrofsky said...

— New Engineering Term —

I've just added a new post and several more court documents to Eclipse-vs-Does.blogspot.com.

Interestingly, Eclipse claims that one its own employees wrote the following on April 16, 2008:

"It's really becoming pathetic to watch this thing (e-clips) auger in. Even the 'spinners' at e-clips can't put much of a spin on anything now. The time between when something is 'spun' and the time it becomes truthfully known is becoming so compressed that it's actually embarrassing to even try to be deceptive anymore. The quality of the airplanes now is crap. That's a new engineering term here. Ten of the last twelve customer aircraft broke in the Delivery Hanger with customers getting ready to fly them. EVERYONE now will not even pay for an airplane until EVERYTHING is fixed, which usually entails at least three trips to the Service Center."

(Eclipse has since fired and sued the employee who it alleges wrote that, Brian Skupa.)

20yearmechanic said...

Hey EclipsePilotOMSIV, You are correct on the number of A/C at Gainesville, Thursday there where 35. Saturday they where down to 29 and had 6 go out with the throttle quadrant issue resolved or checked out. As of Sunday they had 26 and tonight they have 20 being finnished as in they came there needing some things and 6 that are RON (remaining Over Night) for some reason or another including the throttle quadrant, (a total of 26).

They where all grounded until checked out.

421JOCKY: Im glad you like your plane, Good chance I worked on your plane if you have between 17 to 165. I hope you get all you paid for with it and don't get burned.

Turn and Burn: OMG you just don't give up. The L-39 was in the BODE 2 weeks ago, I saw it on Friday outside at ABQ. But for the record it has been at Double Eagle as well as the L-29 Photo plane that they have, That is there tonight. They now are doing training for the new hires at Double Eagle as well as they have simulators up there.

Im tired of all this stuff, I guess you are right. I should start writing down N and Tail numbers.

20 YM

Dave said...

I've just added a new post and several more court documents to Eclipse-vs-Does.blogspot.com.

Comedy rhodium galore! The Skupa quotes are very entertaining:
http://petrofsky.org/misc/legal-docs/Eclipse/Eclipse-vs-Does-CA-2008-05-23-Barratt-declaration.pdf

20yearmechanic said...

Saturday, June 14, 2008
Checks Ordered On Eclipse Jets

By Winthrop Quigley
Journal Staff Writer

The Federal Aviation Administration has ordered the inspection of all Eclipse Aviation 500 jet engine throttles after a June 5 incident in Chicago when pilots could not slow an Eclipse jet during landing.
Eclipse founder Vern Raburn on Friday defended the safety of the aircraft and said the National Transportation Safety Board, seeking publicity, jumped the gun in recommending the inspections.
The FAA said an Eclipse 500 cannot be flown until it is inspected and new emergency procedures are inserted into the jet's flight manual. Operators must report inspection results within 10 days.
"It's a safety issue that needed to be addressed quickly, so we didn't hesitate to take action," FAA spokesman Les Dorr said Friday in a telephone interview with the Journal from Washington, D.C.
He added, "That said, the test itself and the adding of the pages to the airplane flight manual is not a terribly labor-intensive activity. It's only if you find a problem that the airplane may be on the ground for a while."
Raburn told the Journal on Friday that the Albuquerque-based company had informed its customers of the problem by June 9 and that all of the 50 planes owned by fleet operators and currently parked at the Eclipse facility had been inspected by midnight Thursday and returned to service. About 200 Eclipse 500s have been sold since January 2007.
Raburn said the National Transportation Safety Board issued an urgent safety recommendation to the FAA about the problem on Thursday— after Eclipse and the FAA had agreed on a fix.
"We're sort of mystified where all this urgency came from with the NTSB when we'd already done it," Raburn said.
In another interview published Friday, he went further: "The NTSB decided they had to have the publicity on this. They issued an urgent press release and an urgent safety communique on something that had already been taken care of by Eclipse. To call the aircraft unsafe is at best a massively gross exaggeration and at worse it's just an outright lie."
NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker responded that he didn't think his agency acted prematurely.
"The quick FAA response to the urgent recommendations we issued could save lives," Rosenker said. "Additionally, the NTSB is looking forward to reviewing the results of the FAA-required inspections of these aircraft."
Raburn said Eclipse suspects the throttle malfunction was a software problem, but the NTSB has not yet provided Eclipse with the component that failed during the Chicago landing. Until Eclipse and the component's manufacturer, Curtiss-Wright Corp., can disassemble the part, the companies won't know why the failure occurred, Raburn said.
Dorr said the FAA has no reason to believe there is anything wrong with the throttle assembly design or manufacture. "Clearly, if the results of the evaluation come back and we find issues with a large number of throttle (mechanisms), we would have to consider what further action we'd take," he said.
He added, "Especially when you have an airplane that is ground-breaking in a number of ways, you can anticipate some issues will come up."
New details provided by Eclipse and the FAA indicate the problem occurred when one of the two pilots on the June 5 flight pushed the throttles controlling the two engines too far forward. That generated a software message that caused the engines to remain at maximum thrust, Raburn said.
The throttle could not be made to slow the engines, so the pilots aborted their initial landing. They shut off one engine, which caused the plane's software to slow the other engine to idle speed.
The pilots and their two passengers landed safely.
According to the FAA, the plane is registered to Kiernan Companies LLC, a San Diego-based real estate developer. The FlightAware Web site, which tracks aircraft activity nationally, shows the plane flew at least five times after the June 5 incident.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.

AvidPilot said...

This may be a stupid question, but why is it that Eclipse keeps posting and re-posting the same worn out blogger's comments that were considered "confidential information"?

Every time Eclipse files a document with the posts and it gets posted on the internet, more people get to read them. If the information is so confidential, why do they putting it out there for everyone to see?

Raymond Barratt really made himself look like a dork. "I began collecting and preserving posts in February 2008". I wonder which moniker our buddy Raymond is using? Mirage00, T&B, gorak?

baron95 said...

Shane said ... "it requires the pilot to reduce the offending throttle to mid range, and then pull the two circuit breakers for FADEC channel A, and reset them. Then do the same for FADEC channel B."

Thanks for the info Shane. Can someone tell me how long the procedure takes? I mean, how long do you have to wait for the FADECs to come back on line before you can pull the other and get thrust control back after you pull the last one. Or, as I imagine, the second you reset the first FADEC you should get thrust control back as that FADEC will have a valid throttle position.

I'm sorry shane, but the procedure the pilot provided is what I (and others anticipated) the devil is in the details - particularly the wait times.

Shane said ... "You can also tell Baron and the others that advising ATC in the form of a malfunction report, or declaring an emergency, is prudent. FAR 91.3 states that the Pilot in Command is the sole authority for the safety of the flight."

Is that in response to something I said? Why the lecture on declaring emergencies and NTSB reports? Is there any pilot that does not know that? Incidentally, loss of control of a jet engine is a mandatory NTSB reportable incident.

Also, Shane, your source pilot makes the assumption that he would have all time in the world to perform the procedure to regain thurst control. That may not be true in all cases. If the pilot just descended on a approach through an overcast picking up ice, the last thing he/she want to do is climb back into it without thrust control. Same if there is a medical emergency on board or other equipment failure.

Remember that, now that the "be ginger" requirement is known, only stressed out pilots are likely to over-stress the throttle levers. So, something unusual most likely is already taking place in that flight, and the pilot will most likely not have all the time in the world and/or the desire for an uncontrollable climb.

baron95 said...

Turn-and-Burn said...
http://tinyurl.com/4adbcq


The only thing that is sadder than seing the buffs in the boneyard is the fact that several of them had their fuselages and wings shopped off and still needed to be kept there for the Russian satelites to see them. Oh well, at least the H-Buffs will fly another 30 years.

baron95 said...

Metalguy said ... Where do you think a big chunk of the $1.X Billion has gone? Salaries spent at local stores is where. It went straight from Eclipses bank right back into the local economy – probably within a week or two.


Exactly right Metalguy. Everytime this blog (and Fred I am sorry to say is the prime example) stray from the valid criticism of Eclipse into finding conspiracy and fraud on everything they do very poorly.

There is ABSOLUTELY no question, that having invest a modest sum in a high risk startup that has lasted and provide jobs to hundreds to over a thousand in NM for close to 10 years, NM got their money's worth and then some.

You should see how most of community develoment money turns out in most communities. This was not a home run, but was a solid tripple, at lease.

Thanks for the mature analysis and posting Metalguy.

Charity said...

This CIO (Barrett) must be a "newbie". He is obviously still in some kind of honeymoon stage with EAC. Wait until he has been there a while and feels the wrath that so many other Executives before him have endured. Is he willing to do ANYTHING that his boss asks? Someday (if not already) their requests of him might not be so legal! Then what will he do?

baron95 said...

FlightCenter said...
They have delivered 61 aircraft so far this quarter, making this the most E500 aircraft yet delivered in any previous quarter.


Thanks for the info flight center - I find it amazing that 61 people actually accepted these planes (knowing more than we do). Incidentally that makes it pretty close to one every working day (63 would be one every working day for the second quarter with the two holidays).

Amazing really - to deliver that many jets with so many reported problems. I really can't explain it. There has to me something that we don't know going on.

baron95 said...

AS said ... The banks then sold the mortgage to greater fools until the collapse happened.

Hey AS, you forgot to mention the secret ingredient. Uncle Sam, in the form of cousins Freddie and Fannie, and FHA guaranteed the securitization of these loans, making the scam sound risk free and legit.

And now, they are making the pendulum swing in the other direction making sure the housing colapse is much, much worse than it needs to be.

Such are the joys of government manipulation of the free markets.

MetalGuy said...

Comedy rhodium galore! The Skupa quotes are very entertaining:
http://petrofsky.org/misc/legal-docs/Eclipse/Eclipse-vs-Does-CA-2008-05-23-Barratt-declaration.pdf


Is that what the sued Brian Skupa over? Which part exactly – “The quality of the airplanes now is crap”? This violated his NDA?

I can see letting him go, but to sue him??

Eclipse is the most brain-dead organization on the planet.

All of the employees there ought to run for their lives before the good jobs at real companies are taken.

Dave said...

There is ABSOLUTELY no question, that having invest a modest sum in a high risk startup that has lasted and provide jobs to hundreds to over a thousand in NM for close to 10 years, NM got their money's worth and then some.

NM SIC operates to lower people's taxes by making a profit that goes into the general fund. Money-losing investments either mean higher taxes or cuts. Calling things investments where you don't care about profitability in said investment is a poor use of funds. If you want to blow $10s of millions in taxpayer money to give people jobs without caring about getting a return on investment, there's far better ways to do so than throwing money at Eclipse.

You should see how most of community develoment money turns out in most communities. This was not a home run, but was a solid tripple, at lease.

You're comparing appples to oranges. Community development money isn't about getting a return for shareholders. Community development funds - at least the ones that I'm aware of (CDBG) - don't have to be paid back nor is there a mechanism for them to be because they are grants whereas with the NM SIC it is expressly about not only getting paid back the initial investment but making a profit as well. An entitlement grant and an investment in stock are a million miles apart.

baron95 said...

AvidPilot said...
Shane,
Having been on the TGV a couple of times out of Paris, I have to agree with your assessment that the E500's, or any plane for that matter, are just not efficient for short hops around Europe. At least not in France.


LOL - are you sure? I suppose that EVERY destination with an airport in Europe is covered by point to point high speed train, right?

Geez. At one point in time (late 1900s) trains (together with ferries and to a lesser extent coaches) had close to 100% market share for long haul pubic travel. Then they lost 99% of that the market to cars and planes.

Why do you think that happened?

Planes are the only form of long haul transportation that can provide travel to any two end points in a country/region/world where you build a runway. Cars are the only form of sort haul transportation that can do the same between any end points connecte by roads.

Trains are uni-dimentional forms of transportation. You need to lay the trace between the two end points. You need to waste all that real estate. You need to isolate entire city neighborhoods.

AND - HERE IS THE CLINCHER. In virtually 100% of the routes trais service is provided by a single governamental or monopolistic entity. NO COMPETITION.

Just like our socialist friends in the blog like.

Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather see my tax dollars go to build airports, ATC and Roads. Then I'd like to see brutal competition for my air travel dollars to the point of several bankrupt carriers every year. And I'd like to see GA put further presure on the system.

That is a market to me. Caotic, always on the brink of colapse. Vibrant.

I'd throw up if the only choice I had to go from DC to Boston was Amtrak. Or maybe that is the one thing that could make me buy an EA500. ;)

Dave said...

Uncle Sam, in the form of cousins Freddie and Fannie, and FHA guaranteed the securitization of these loans, making the scam sound risk free and legit.

Actually what happened was that the mortgage companies had a higher and higher percentage in non-conforming loans that weren't covered by the Fed. Having a higher and higher percentage of non-conforming loans and then securitizing them on Wall Street is one of the factors that led to the meltdown. Post-meltdown the surving mortgage companies are returning to the better quality conforming loans. All these mortgage companies are going under because the loans aren't backed by the government.

baron95 said...

You guys are like school children.

Send the freaking pictures to gatopardo95@yahoo.com and I'll post them on airliners.net.

Dave Ivedorne said...

I find it amazing that 61 people actually accepted these planes (knowing more than we do).

Maybe Vern hired Henry Nicholas to do customer acceptance.

[ducks/runs]

airtaximan said...

baron,

heck, I'd give eclipse a pass on the marketing BS, the gov't assistance, the BS-prov-TC, even the conjet... heck even the teething pains and calling the NTSB liars...(actually, none of the safety related issues get a pass from me... ever)... if there was any hope that they could survive.

The reality is, there's not enough demand for their product(s) for this enterprise to make it much longer.

Since they trumped up the order book to begin with, since 2002 or so, I would say its just a scam.

PS. in the first email, Skupa (or whoever) seems to sate that Dayjet's business is in shambles... this was when?

Yeah, I know, he probably didn't know much about Dayjet... but, I guess this is now proof of this FACT and they knew it at that time, no?

baron95 said...

airtaximan said...
baron,

heck, I'd give eclipse a pass on the marketing BS, the gov't assistance, the BS-prov-TC, even the conjet...


I don't think Eclipse needs a pass on anything. Eclipse is a venture funded start up company. By definition they make over optimistic product claims, they over-hype the market, they say the existing players are old guards/dinosaurs, they make PR mistakes, they blow through money like butter on hot corn, they constantly need more funding....

And then, 1 in 10 actually makes it as a company after all the dust settles.

Eclipse is not atypical at all. Vern may have a quirky personality, but he has delivered the number one critical success factor to Eclipse - MONEY. Can't fault a guy that delivers the most important ingredient for success.

Dave said...

I'm having lots of fun reading the Eclipse documents.

For people who haven't closely followed litigation before, be sure and read the footnotes to any legal filing!!! I just ran across where Eclipse in body of page said "the leaked information constituted trade secrets" but when you see the footnote attached to it, it contradicts that by saying that it might not have been confidential anyway:
"Once the identity of the employees leaking confidential information has been disclosed, ECLIPSE intends to amend its Complaint to add a count for violation of New Mexico's Uniform Trade Secrets Act, if it appears that particular information disclosed by particular employees comes within the definition of trade secrets."
So Eclipse in the body claims a law has been broken, then in the footnotes they erase that.

Also how can an opinion email from a then-employee (Brian Skupa) be be any sort of legal proof? The source of my comments so far is here:
http://petrofsky.org/misc/legal-docs/Eclipse/Eclipse-vs-Does-CA-2008-05-23-quash-opposition.pdf

In the Barratt declaration it again brings up that Skupa email about the blog, but it sheds more light. It claims that the email was sent to Kate Zaranek, but wasn't she a fellow Eclipse employee?
http://petrofsky.org/misc/legal-docs/Eclipse/Eclipse-vs-Does-CA-2008-05-23-Barratt-declaration.pdf

20yearmechanic said...

BARON 95 said:

Incidentally that makes it pretty close to one every working day (63 would be one every working day for the second quarter with the two holidays).


Note: Eclipse works 7 days a week with a 4-3 3-4 12 hour schedule. That is 3 days on for 12 hours and 4 days off the 4 days on and 3 days off. All 12 hour work schedules They have an A,B,C and D crew so that it keeps going around the clock.

A quarter would be 90 days so you do the math. Also keep in mind for the last 2 years, they have been building this aircraft down in SP11 and this next week they are shutting it down for 2 weeks. THIS SHOULD PUT A HALT TO THAT CURRENT PACE.

20 YM

Turn-and-Burn said...

20year said... Saturday they where down to 29 and had 6 go out with the throttle quadrant issue resolved or checked out. As of Sunday they had 26 and tonight they have 20 being finnished as in they came there needing some things and 6 that are RON (remaining Over Night) for some reason or another including the throttle quadrant

You really know NOTHING. The throttle AD can be completed by a private pilot, and there is no need to go to the service center to have it done, not even an A&P required. You're a wealth of misinformation.

airsafetyman said...

"The throttle AD can be completed by a private pilot, and there is no need to go to the service center to have it done, not even an A&P required."

When does Eclipse plan on complying with FAR 23.1143 (d) requiring totally independent engine controls for each engine? The regulation seems to be to be clear, and not really open to spin. The fleet may not be grounded, but it should be.

20yearmechanic said...

TURN and BURN

I am only telling you what my 2 friends told me. They are very open and honest down there in Gainesville. The DOM used to be my boss at TIMCO in Lake City Florida. I could wash my car myself but sometimes I take it in. WHATS YOUR POINT?
ALSO in an ABQ Journal report that I posted earlier has VERN STATING THAT HE HAD 50 OPERATORS PLANES PARKED THERE and that they, not the owners checked this AD and cleared them.

THE FACT IS YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE. Dont you read the paper or watch the TV News. Im not saying anything new that has not already been reported other than some of the inside stuff.

YOU MUST BE VERN? OR TODD?


20 YM

Dave said...

You really know NOTHING. The throttle AD can be completed by a private pilot, and there is no need to go to the service center to have it done, not even an A&P required. You're a wealth of misinformation.

I guess you missed the post by EclipsePilot.

epilot said...

For the record, my throttle check is being done by a service center as well.

AvidPilot said...

Baron95,

I was referring specifically to Europe, where most rail is already in place. There are few GA airports in metropolitan area and that isn't likely to change soon, if ever. Owning a jet there would be pretty much pointless, while also being MUCH more expensive than owning one here.

America, on the other hand, is a totally different situation - the distances are far greater and there really is no efficient public transportation system.

epilot said...

Just because it can doesn't mean it must.

Turn-and-Burn said...

Actually, the AD required that the inspection be done BEFORE further flight. Therefore to be legal, you could not even fly it to the service center. The only procedures to complete the AD were to update the AFM and QRH, and check the movement of the throttles and CAS messages.

Raburn told the Journal on Friday that the Albuquerque-based company had informed its customers of the problem by June 9 and that all of the 50 planes owned by fleet operators and currently parked at the Eclipse facility had been inspected by midnight Thursday and returned to service.

20year, this states 50 planes had been inspected which included all of the fleet owned aircraft and all aircraft that were on the Eclipse ramp. It does not state that there were 50 aircraft on the Eclipse ramp. Is this your first hand information?

Dave said...

Actually, the AD required that the inspection be done BEFORE further flight. Therefore to be legal, you could not even fly it to the service center.

So are you saying the acknowledged Eclipse pilots here on this blog are lying about their ownership or that by going to an Eclipse service center they did something that wasn't legal? Is this your first hand information?

20yearmechanic said...

EclipsePilotOMSIV, 421 Jocky, and EPILOT are owners of the Eclipse 500.
They just validated that what I was saying. 421 appiers to have done this on his own (Good On Ya) and EclipsePilotOMSIV appiers to have had his done at the GAINESVILLE SERVICE CENTER and Epilot is taking his in as well.

I guess TURN AND BURN you will be doing your E500 on your own RIGHT?

WHAT WAS THAT YOU SAID? "YOU REALLY KNOW NOTHING"

Turn-and-Burn said...

If pilots flew to the service centers without complying with the AD beforehand, then yes they were not flying airworthy aircraft at that time.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

T&B,

Can a private pilot replace defective TQA's or would that not require an A&P or a, oh I don't know, Service Center?

Did not the NTSB demonstrate a duplicate failure in their first attempt?

Do we not have a near 2 year record of other components failing at oddly high levels, even for brand new equipment (actuators, autopilot, displays, tires, etc.)?

Anecdotally, I know when I was through ABQ on business a month or so back I saw at least 2 dozen EA-500's parked at Eclipse and the FBO to the South.

Turn-and-Burn said...

Where are the pics? You can upload them on any of the share sites and post the URL here. You're in ABQ so it shouldn't be much of a problem to take a shot with your phone and post the link.

Dave said...

If pilots flew to the service centers without complying with the AD beforehand, then yes they were not flying airworthy aircraft at that time.

So Eclipse is potentially liable for booking their appointments at the service centers according to you.

Turn-and-Burn said...

CW... Can a private pilot replace defective TQA's or would that not require an A&P

No, you cannot replace the throttle quadrant. Only one has failed the inspection for friction problems, not CAS messages. Eclipse dispatched a mobile team to replace the component.

The ramp to the south of Eclipse IS THE SERVICE CENTER. Nice sleuthing.

20yearmechanic said...

TURN AND BURN

READING COMP 101

Raburn told the Journal on Friday that the Albuquerque-based company had informed its customers of the problem by June 9 and that all of the 50 planes owned by fleet operators and currently parked at the Eclipse facility had been inspected by midnight Thursday and returned to service.

the 50 planes OWNED BY FLEET OPERATORS, AND (AND are CURRENTLY PARKED) not (AND THE PLANES THAT ARE) this means that there 50 that are currently parked at the facility. NOT THAT THERE ARE 50 and some parked here. READ IT CARFULLY!

The TV NEWS said the same thing with VIDEO of many many planes parked.

MATE, MATE, MATE, Your doing my head in with your petty BS. Please If your in ABQ lets go have a drink and go see some planes for god sake, bring your camera as well.

20 YM

Turn-and-Burn said...

Dave... So Eclipse is potentially liable for booking their appointments at the service centers according to you.

Nobody said that they scheduled an appointment to fly to the service center to have the throttle AD completed. Perhaps the aircraft was already there for the AOA inspection.

Turn-and-Burn said...

20Year... MATE, MATE, MATE, Your doing my head in with your petty BS. Please If your in ABQ lets go have a drink and go see some planes for god sake, bring your camera as well.

You're there, take the photo and post it.

Dave said...

Where are the pics? You can upload them on any of the share sites and post the URL here. You're in ABQ so it shouldn't be much of a problem to take a shot with your phone and post the link.

20Year offered to not only email you but to meet you as well, but you refused. Continually whining in an attempt to dodge your refusal is counterproductive and wastes everyone's time.

Turn-and-Burn said...

OK 20Year, let's assume your read it correct. What fleet planes have ever been based in ABQ? NONE. The fleet plane discussed are DayJet, Linear, LabQuest, etc.

gadfly said...

An educated guess tells me that the “throttle levers” are using the “bearing(s)” of the encoder/sending device as their own “pivot” bearings. Is this correct?

Bottom line here is that encoders are rather “delicate”, and the bearings are generally not expected to take the direct forces applied by machine or man, and are best connected indirectly to a sturdier lever/bearing combination, that can withstand the various loads applied to the levers.

All this is just a guess on my part, but “if” the throttle levers are properly designed, there is no operator force that will damage the encoders/sender units. But if, on the other hand, the throttle levers use the same bearings as the encoders, that would easily explain how a simple “30 pound force” could damage the encoders.

gadfly

(‘Such a design would be in keeping with “Flight Simulator”, or a computer game control.)

Livin-Large-in-ABQ said...

I just had to see if 20YM's claims are correct.

Looking through the gate at the service center here in ABQ, there are 5 aircraft in the center itself, and 6 on the ramp outside. I couldn't see the fenced in Eclipse delivery ramp. There are zero parked on the ramp at Double Eagle.

If someone could check the other service center locations, we could be done with this nonsense.

Gunner said...

"Perhaps the aircraft was already there for the AOA inspection."

Or for wing attachment inspect.
Or for transparency inspect and replacement.
Or for brakes and tires inspect and replacement.
Or for yaw damper inspect.
Or for autopilot inspect.
Or for autotrim inspect.

You make a good point, T&B. There's probably a couple dozen valid reasons that might explain 60%+ of the fleet headed to or flocked about the Service Centers.
Gunner

Livin-Large-in-ABQ said...

By the way, Gadfly could confirm these observations as well

stan said...

Turn-and-Burn suggested...

"Perhaps the aircraft was already there for the AOA inspection."

What's the AOA inspection about?

Is this another item to add to gunner's list?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

T&B, I am talking about right in front of the FBO to the south of the Eclipse buildings, NOT the small hangar that is just east of it.

I have flown through the FBO there before, not Cutter (N) but the one on the other side of Eclipse. 7 Bar I think.

Regardless, there were at least 2 dozen 500's visible on the ramp when I was through there a month or so ago. Wonder why there were so many just sitting around - none in the air that day BTW, it was sunny.

Does Shari like her toyjet?

gadfly said...

LL-n-ABQ

No, I'm not allowed on that side of town . . . we "mountain folks" don't speak to "flat-landers". Besides, I need to remain totally away from Eclipse until I have been cleared of all charges of having violated an "NDA" (whatever that is).

gadfly

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Mine was there for routine maintenance when the news broke.(AD published). And dealt with in a hurry. Sorry to disappoint I did not fly an illegal aircraft. Nor was it is some horrible condition beyond repair. And you bet your booty that I would have it looked at by a professional. (Haven't quite got around to getting my A&P yet). PS I would have a professional look at my other 3 aircraft as well. Give the plane a little time, it may surprise you in a good way. Besides flying from 7000 ft to FL350 on less that 70 gph is as my friend Borat would say "VERY NICE!" Show me another jet aircraft that comes close. PPS 20yrmechanic; a little disgruntled are we?

20yearmechanic said...

You have not been to the back side of the hanger or the service center, Take a trip on a plane and as you go down the runway you will see them all. They where on the news and If you go to Double Eagle you would see them. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT AN E500 looks like. But hey, Im a liar right? Most all I say gets verified anyway so as I said before, EMAIL ME and we will go see them, OR ARE YOU SCARED?

I DONT CARE ANYWAY, I DONT HAVE TO SWEAT LOSING MY JOB THERE OR WILL I BE AFFECTED WHEN IT FOLDS.

Charity said...

EclipsePilotnsiv, you said, "A little disgruntled arent we?"

Unless you have been personally effected by companies like Eclipse...you have no idea. Im not saying that 20yr is in fact a disgruntled employee, but if he was...I wouldnt blame him a bit. People often make jokes of digruntled employees but where Eclipse is concerned, its serious...I dont think disgruntled covers it.

fred said...

gadfly :

##
Every legitimate company has critics, and enemies . . . that is not a problem. But good companies keep their promises and have the "respect" of their critics and enemies.##

may i suggest that GOOD firms are commonly known for this small detail = even their enemies are saying about them "we are competitor , still we respect them !"

i think it is called "having a Name "

something Vern has turned into a sad joke ...

fred said...

avidpilot ...

yes ...! European main land is DEFINITELY NOT a market for EA500 and air-taxi on shorts hops ...

in facts , at the difference of some others parts of the world , here it is a Railways-Station in EVERY town (still quite common to have them in every village with some kind of network ...)

and an airport or airfield for that many towns (to share costs , reduce noise and pollution ...)
this situation is VERY unlikely to change as to create only a small airfield , you need first to get permit , which are incredibly difficult to obtain and then you would have to deal with 2 aspects :
1° public opinion = need to cut pollution and to reduce noises , even if i agree with the fact that trains aren't better on this , most see trains are being more ecology-friendly ...

2° costs = to be attracting you need infrastructure and interconnections with others transportation means ...
so you either have to spend hell of a lot .... or be in the middle of nowhere and your passengers loose what ever gain they made by flying when trying to reach final destination !

so as convenience train are better than plane , in European mainland ...


on top of this ,as you (and some others) clearly stated for short trip EA500 is not a valid solution !

i think (guess) that anything under 3 or 4 hours of transportation , planes cannot really make it ...

3/4 hours being already something reaching the limits of EA500 ...

so what is the point of flying private when :

*i will have problems to get in the bird and out of the plane for anything ?
(unless i can have business appointments directly in plane , but then what is the need of a plane ? and i can do the same in trains , can work the same way in train than plane , the main difference =in train i can stretch my legs by going to have a coffee or a snack in the food-wagon !)

* it will costs me more ...

* others may look at me as a "weird-animal" as flying private is probably the best way for having "oversized-ego" in the eyes of others ...

(ok , i admit i'm one "weird-beast" , but that's an other topic! ;-)) )

* anything i get on schedule by flying private , i will loose into connecting , transferring , traffic-jam to go back and forth to airports , and so on ...

* still have to go thou same (but reduced) safety procedures than big-wings ....

*Tax system (fiscal) will try to shoot me down if i do it too often ... ( for such things both the French and German system are quite bad !)

so what is left for EA500 as air-taxi ... ?

just about nothing , may be the pleasure to own one , if supporter , but that is already a VERY different matter , and it doesn't abolish the too short range and the EASA problems ...

so EA500 as air-taxi = JUST NO WAY !

and as personal toy ? = Mustang is a much safer bet and NOT that much more expensive !

fred said...

baron95 :

##Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather see my tax dollars go to build airports, ATC and Roads. Then I'd like to see brutal competition for my air travel dollars to the point of several bankrupt carriers every year.##

only a matter of choices !!

but , after having been living in both systems , i think none are better ...!

some goods and some bads , in both !

i would only suggest this :

while you have so much of your Tax-$ spent on building on airports and atc , the Oil disappear ...

at the end of the day , you see a message on your mobile :

"same player don't shoot again ! game over !"

fred said...

dave :

##Actually what happened was that the mortgage companies had a higher and higher percentage in non-conforming loans that weren't covered by the Fed##

sorry but you are forgetting the role played by some agencies (like Moody's) who gave "AAA" notations to things that wasn't valid for a kopeck ...

and the SEC , which basically has NOT enough power to unveil the black curtain the Wall-Street-thieves like so much ...

something hilarious now :
The SEC is trying to get power and have legit to clean-up a bit the mess created by all-scams , all-behind-the-curtain activities of most earning 6/7+ digits salaries/bonus/stocks options ...

the reaction = those are touting that hell will fall upon , if such things happen ...

wonder why ... ? ;-))

fred said...

baron95 :

##LOL - are you sure?##

yes , definitely ! :-)

i hold a french and german passport !
(where i spend a few months in both every year)

i work mainly in Russia ...

(where i spend a few months every year , and a fourth place somewhere else where i go only for rest and vacations)

i travel very often for work and pleasure ...

i have been trying to work it out for a long time ...

at the end , i understood :

what is perfectly valid in one place might be totally awkward somewhere else !

so when vern and his mignon are trying to implies that what is quite normal in the USA can be reproduced anywhere ...

it has just the same value than his plane ...!

by the way i must thanks Mr Shane for giving infos on the geneva-milan as i never took it myself ...

the only thing i would disagree on =
food in train or around stations are commonly thought as
"in case of deadly starvation , please , break the glass !"

but i suppose this is the french side of myself talking ... on food we are a real pain in the bum ... ;-))

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Some of these arguments and accusations seem unneccessary.

1/ Nothing stops someone doing an AD twice. So the pilot does the check, signs it off, then flies to the service center and has an Eclipse A&P repeat it and sign it off (probably a good idea, from an insurance perspective)

2/ It would be a good idea if some blogger who lives near each of the service centers would volunteer to regularly post pictures of the flight lines, so that fights don't break out over how many planes are standing around.

3/ Wasn't it posted here once that the Eclipse has to be maintenance by an Eclipse service center under FlightIncomplete (warranty requirement)? How are those nine A/C in euope being maintained?

fred said...

correction :

Vern , if you(or any of your blind followers ) ever suggest that it is not ONLY on foods that i am being a pain ...

I'll subponea YOU !

as this VERY proprietary "secret" infos ... ;-)))

fred said...

freedom...:

##How are those nine A/C in euope being maintained? ##

answer is quite simple : they cannot !

at least not by a certified center , which make it useless ...!

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Wasn't Skupa in the management team? Doesn't Vern see the irony of publishing for the whole world to see, an email from one of his own managers stating to another Eclipse manager that:

"The quality of the airplanes is now crap

This is not not some bloggers opinion... This is the Eclipse CEO publishing (through the court), the opinion of one of the people he choose for leadership in his company.

"The quality of the airplanes is now crap

421,EclipsePilotOMSIV and the other owners, How do you feel about this?

Obviously the bits you can see and the way the plane has worked for you so far has not brought you to the conclusion that the quality of the aircraft is crap.

Do you think he might have been refering to bits you haven't seen yet? Maybe the bits Hampton made which Vern said were substandard, but installed anyway? Maybe the bits of code in the AvioNG which they couldn't get to work, but are still in there, hopefully deactivated? MAybe the tires? Maybe the code in the FADEC which tries to decide whether to follow one of the throttle input
Does this cause you any concern at 41,000 feet, that members of the managermetn team who built the thing think it's quality is crap?

FreedomsJamtarts said...

My guess is that Vern has become so accustomed to the the concept that the The quality fo the planes is now crap that he didn't register what an indictment it is for him, as CEO to use this opinion of one of his choosen managers in his "defense"

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Turn-and-Burn said...
CW... Can a private pilot replace defective TQA's or would that not require an A&P

No, you cannot replace the throttle quadrant. Only one has failed the inspection for friction problems, not CAS messages. Eclipse dispatched a mobile team to replace the component.

The ramp to the south of Eclipse IS THE SERVICE CENTER. Nice sleuthing.

June 23, 2008 7:37 PM

Hmmm, Insider information? Vern, is that you? Have you checked your ENEMA?

How did the NTSB manage to wreck the replacement throttle quadrant in Midway? Maybe they were trying to save lives by pushing hard, like a pilot in a panic might, rather than pushing soft (to the letter of the AD) like an owner who wants to fly away today, but doesn't think through the consequences of safety.

fred said...

freedom :

##421,EclipsePilotOMSIV and the other owners, How do you feel about this? ##

NOTHING !

it is a new iteration of :

Never Cure The Problem , just shoot the messenger ...

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Be fair Fred, they have forked out over a million buck for a plane.

They have received a plane which is doing some of what they expected. There is a strong human factor to accept something you have just bought, and live with the faults.

The plane seems easy to fly, quiet, and does some of the job for these guys.

Obviously someone like me who is concerned with the probablity that a fleet of 200+ will start causing lawn darts, has a different risk assessment than an owner who has (so far) had good experience with the jet.

I would expect the Midways pilots no longer have the rosy glasses on, chatting about how quiet it is and how nice it handles, but are concerned about how it is going to try and kill them next.

I hope 421 and the the other owners can stay and remain candid after they have had their first tire burst, their first EFIS alerts during takeoff, just as entering IMC etc.

There are some planes which are tough to fly, and give the impression that they are just lurking, waiting for a seconds inattention to try and kill you.

How much more dangerous is the plane which is easy to fly, has nice handling, few obvious vices, but then slams you with the combinations of failures reported by the NTSB in the Midway incident?

fred said...

freedom...

if i made you feel some discomfort , i apologize !

no , i was quoting you with this thinking :

EAC has made something , on that we agree !

is it safe enough ? time will tell !

is it economically sustainable ? very unlikely ...

do already owners deserve respect ? yes , as any human being !

What is wrong with them ? nothing ! if they miss the first wake-up call , let them meet their destiny !
good one or bad one = doesn't matter as long as they choosed themselves and didn't get lured into such by magnificent promises , misrepresentation of some distant lands , etc... etc...

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Fred, you are correct in the sense that the owners only have themselves to blame if they ignore the warning signs.

But they have very strong motivation ($$$) to be selective and ignore about 95% of the doom and gloom opinions which we Bloggers provide.

They can ignore the NTSB, EASA certification team, other operators defect reports, Eclipse management telling them that The quality of the aircraft is now crap at their own peril though.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

The FAA system is reactive in the post TC phase. The operators have to prove an unsafe condition (they often die for it) to drive an AD.

The experience of the MU-2 show how differcult it is to drive the authority to perform a proactive design review.

The solid dinosaurs of the industry are largely trying to proactively address potentially unsafe conditions through the reported reliablity issues before the accident chain is completed on single flights, bad day.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Al Petrofsky, you have been doing a great job of documenting the Lawsuite.

Would you be able to request the Eclipse 500 CRI's mentioned in the FAA TCDS under the freedom of information act?

I suspect that the "voting" behaviour of the FADEC swapping inputs to the other throttle is an unsafe condition iaw FAR 23.1143, but it is possible that the FAA knew of this behaviour and certified it as an equivelent level of safety (in which case, how this was done should be in the CRI).

Even if they did certify it, I would argue there is an unsafe condition because they didn't provide the operator with the information as to how this unusual design operates.

fred said...

freedom...:

##But they have very strong motivation ($$$) to be selective and ignore about 95% of the doom and gloom opinions which we Bloggers provide.##

we agree 1000% !

if most in the world would keep in mind a simple ratio made-up as a combination of Price/Quality/use

in such scale the EA500 score would be quite close to 0 (zero)

it is not even a surprise , some want not to see it ...

after the years i spent in Africa , I understood one simple fact = What is the most difficult and almost Never to be reached Goal ?

protect peoples against themselves !

now when i am asked to donate for some parts of the world (where it is NOT a natural disaster occurred after some events no one has controls about )

i always answer : "the best way to help them is in NOT helping them !"

Turn-and-Burn said...

20Year... DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT AN E500 looks like

Sure I do, it's the one that guys like you work on creating all of the quality escapes that have to be corrected by 30-year mechanincs.

Turn-and-Burn said...

CW... Regardless, there were at least 2 dozen 500's visible on the ramp when I was through there a month or so ago. Wonder why there were so many just sitting around - none in the air that day BTW, it was sunny.

Perhaps you were there for the customer fly-in last month. Nice sleuthing!

airsafetyman said...

A quality manufacturer will often push for the issuance of an AD note to ensure compliance to correct an unsafe condition. If the manufacturer can later demonstrate that all aircraft have been modified with a one-time fix, as opposed to a recurring inspection, the AD can be cancelled.

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