Wednesday, May 21, 2008

Important Notice for the Honor Roll

As many of you know, we have engaged our own attorney, Mr. Norman Malinski, to respond to the Eclipse subpoena of Google records. Eclipse’s assault on our First Amendment rights is targeted at obtaining personal information on some 28 Bloggers of this site. While our response to that subpoena has been filed, Mr. Malinski has received indications from Eclipse attorneys that they might seek to exclude from the Court’s ruling any named Bloggers who have not stipulated that they wish to be represented by Mr. Malinski in our response and the upcoming hearing.

In order to assure that you are properly represented in this proceeding, we ask that you confirm your wishes under your usual screen name. This ensures that, as you started out anonymous to the Court, you can remain anonymous in your response. Simply copy and paste the following language to a response under your Blog Screen Name and we will deliver that list of affirmations to Mr. Malinski for use in Court:

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”


It's important that you do this under your original blog 'name', as I know of at least one who has chosen to change his in the meantime. For those of you who have already responded to Gunner, please ensure that you STILL post the small notice above to this new thread. The more of the names we cover in this action the better. Check out the list here in case you are unsure if you are on it.

239 comments:

1 – 200 of 239   Newer›   Newest»
fred said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

Plastic_Planes said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

FreedomsJamtarts said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Thanks for doing this Gunner and Shane.

This might well be the most boring thread on this site :)

Turboprop_pilot said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

eclipso said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

airsafetyman said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

airtaximan said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

airsafetyman said...

From the earlier thread:

"Trying to recover from a failure (e.g. moving production elsewhere) is not illegal or imoral either."

I would disagree, but this case (moving the production to Russia without the first hint of how the airplanes are to be certified) is insane! I would not knowingly invest in any company these idiots on the Eclipse's board had anything to do with. Also, the production workers did not omit the weather radar, the anti-skid, the anti-ice, the de-ice, the usable avionics and functioning autopilot; they were never designed in to begin with. How is Ivan and Natisha beating metal on the frozen steppes of Nova-whatever going to change that?

Gunner said...

Posted for Whytech; email confirm on file:

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by
Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action
currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL,
Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

fred said...

is this a case of massive loss of humor ??

seems everyone is saying the same thing ...!! ;-))

yes , i think we (i! not sure i can speak for all !) should be very thankful for Mr Shane and Mr Gunner ...

i am among the one who have the least to fear (small notice for Vern : even if you find someone to agree with the non-sens you're doing by embarrassing the legal system of your country , before you would be allowed to reach the first cent of my first € , hell will be freezing !!sorry , you're not the only one to know what nice things can be done in Luxembourg ) but i wish success to all the ones embarked !!

fred said...

airsafety ...:

don't worry about Russia , Mustang has been certified by FAA , then in 47 different countries ...

as for Russia , the same Mustang is supposed to get it cert. not before 2010 !!

just try to imagine what is going to be the impact on the "amateurish" way of dealing with things of EAC...

if one of most well known and established manufacturer suffer this delay , vern will be forgotten long ago before the EA500 file get to the top of the pile ...!!!

vova_k said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

Niner Zulu said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

MetalGuy said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

gadfly said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

MetalGuy said...

Shane/Gunner

Is there going to be a request to un-seal the originating lawsuit so we can at least be advised of what we are all accused of?

It seems so inherently odd that a legal defense must be formulated and put into place without even knowing what the accusations are.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

Dave said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that Eclipse sucks.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

And while we are at it, might I add 'nice try' to the Eclipse Legal Weasel's for trying to sneak the info, and thanks to Norman for keeping us shiny side up and CAVU!!

I second the request that the original case be somehow unsealed so that those of us named for (presumably) a subpoena to testify about what we knew and when we knew it (if anything) might be able to determine what all the hubub is about anyway. If there will be any onsite or telecon motions or arguments I suggest we highlight the utter ridiculousness of being targetted in reference to a sealed court case about which I specifically do not recall ever posting about. In fact, I am unsure what if anything the other party to that case even did for Eclipse.

Hey Vern, anyone tell you lately you are such a tool?

Had you not apparently surrounded yourself with yes-men who tell you how nice your new clothes look you probably could have avoided all this, at least, if you would have listened.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the forming of this opinion/satire/ Any scene's appearing to place NDA's in jeopardy were simulated.

Black Tulip said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

EXEAC said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

Dave said...

Regarding unsealing of court documents third parties could also be interested in filing a motion to unseal. This was successfully done in the SCO case:
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600129419,00.html
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,600130856,00.html (the title is misleading because the judge did grant the motion in part, which required timely redacted filings amongst other things).

Motions to unseal records are frequently done, particularly when there is a media public interest in the story. Vern certainly has helped make a case for the public unsealing of documents because he's been so much in the media and with this case in particular, the first thing he did was run to the media about it. Even further undermining the sealing of the documents is that Eclipse is funded by taxpayers, so that further could chip away at being able to seal off documents from the public (let alone the accused).

Here's a similiar case involving Does on the internet where the motion to unseal resulted in the end of the case and it too took place in Santa Clara involving an out-of-state subpoena:
http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/node/5439

Eclipse could find itself needlessly distracted, hounded by the media and burning up more cash due to their courtroom antics.

Dave said...

More bad news for Eclipse regarding EASA:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/05/21/224006/ebace-2008-easa-could-force-major-changes-to-eclipse-vlj.html
This impacts not just the EASA date, but the overall company strategy. Even ETIRC - Eclipse's large and recent financer - has admitted to navigation system failures in the short time their own aircraft have been in use.

flightguy said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

airtaximan said...

listen to Vern at EBACE, AIN audiocast, AINAlerts May 21.

Thanks Black Tulip for writing his script.

among the pearls, something like:

"Dayjet only accounted for a few dozen deliveries this year, anyway"

.. blaming suppliers for delays in production, also looking forward to assembling planes in Russia.... as IF that's a problem that needed solving.

Enjoy

fred said...

dave ...

about unsealing : it's only the beginning of the fun ...
as a foreign citizen , i am legally entitled to sue the californian court for putting me on proceeding without me knowing first what is the grief against me ...!

Vern probably didn't understand what are the implications of trans-national court cases ...

what is really cracking me up in the matter = his lawyers are going to make a fortune out of him , for a result which will be in its best form only a catastrophe ...

con game , you said ? na ...!!

John said...


Frank Remmerswaal, managing director of Eclipse’s European partner ETIRC Aviation (European Technology and Investment Research Centre) admits the aircraft has suffered
a failure of its attitude and heading reference system in the brief period that he has been flying the aircraft out of Amsterdam Schiphol under instrument flight rules.
But he says that generally the aircraft is a delight to fly in the airways. He flew it from Amsterdam to Geneva for EBACE, and was cleared to fly at FL370, although he could have taken FL410 if he had chosen to.

EBACE Review article
Note the accompanying picture shows tail 36FD or S/N 137 that flew to Europe on April 28/29th.

gadfly said...

A very old joke was about the four engine airliner, chewing its way across the Pacific . . . and it lost an engine. The pilot announced with assurance that the aircraft could fly just fine on three engines . . . but their arrival at SFO would be delayed by an hour. A few minutes later, the second engine came to a stop . . . but with full assurance that the aircraft could fly just fine on two engines . . . but they would arrive three hours late. With the failure of the third engine, the pilot again assured the passengers that, with their light load and props “feathered”, the plane could, indeed fly on one engine . . . but they would be six hours late. One passenger turned to another and commented: “If that last engine fails, we’ll be up here all day.”

It appears that the Europeans may have also heard the “joke”, but don’t find it funny, and have stated it as such:

“Last month Paul Hatton of the EASA certification directorate listed numerous concerns unique to VLJs generically but also specific issues for the Eclipse 500. These ranged from the aircraft’s slow rate of emergency descent from its 41,000ft ceiling in the event of sudden decompression, to the requirement for stiffer tests on the integrity of the software in the aircraft’s highly integrated avionics package, simply because it has such comprehensive functionality. ref: “Dave” (above)

gadfly

FlightCenter said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

Turboprop_pilot said...

"James Fallows [jfallows@gmail.com]

Thanks for your note. I am about to head back to China and will check this out when there. Jim Fallows"

I sent him an e mail suggesting that he stop repeating Ed's propaganda and check out Eclipse critic NG

Turboprop_pilot

H.M.E said...

It has been recently claimed by some that the credit crunch is partially responsible for the difficulties in raising funds. There appear to be a lot of money floating around though:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1123-full.html

Interesting podcast interview with CEO of Russian Air Taxi Dexter:
http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_EBACE2008_Dexter_RussianAirTaxiModel_197920-1.html?kw=RelatedStory

Dave said...

It has been recently claimed by some that the credit crunch is partially responsible for the difficulties in raising funds. There appear to be a lot of money floating around though

I don't buy Ed's excuse. With Ed's rolodex and supposedly proven concept, if he had actually proved it, he could easily get $40 million.

FlightCenter said...

AIN EBACE Interview with Vern

A few takeaways from the AIN interview with Vern.

Vern states that the Garmin 400Ws will be certified by mid-summer and also states that all aircraft with serial #265 and below will need to be retrofitted with 400Ws. The inference is that Eclipse plans to deliver serial #265 in mid-summer ’08.

In order to deliver serial #265 by mid-summer, Eclipse will have to deliver one aircraft a day for the next 90 days. They have yet to prove that they can meet that target. Eclipse delivered 78 aircraft in the first 141 days of this year. They have delivered 39 aircraft in the last 50 days, still well short of one a day.

There are other indications that they are behind plan. 9Z reported in March that serial #223 was projected to be delivered in May. The FAA registry database shows that production start for serial #223 was recorded on 5/14/2008. Based on recent trends, this data would indicate that serial #223 will likely be delivered mid-summer ’08.

In a presentation to the FAA in March, Eclipse projected that they would achieve one a day deliveries in April. They’ve clearly missed that milestone.

But in Vern’s most recent statement on deliveries earlier this month, he asserted that Eclipse can “easily get to 100 Eclipse 500s per month”. That will be a pretty big step given that Eclipse has yet to meet its own plans to deliver 30 Eclipse 500s a month.

He must be hoping that the Russian plant’s production rate will ramp much faster than his ABQ production facilities. He has now committed to first deliveries from Russia in 2009.

Vern talks about plans to open 2 or 3 new service centers in Europe, but doesn’t provide an update on previous commitments to have service centers open in Van Nuys, Boca Raton, Chicago, and the Bay Area in 2007.

Vern says that all FAA flight tests are complete and FIKI certification will occur within the next 2 weeks. Serial #121 and below will need to be retrofit with FIKI modifications.

Vern has backed off his previous commitments for EASA certification plans in this interview. He is no longer willing to make any commitments. In January, he said that EASA certification would “certainly occur by Q2”. Earlier this month, he said he “hoped for cert in Q3”.

Also not mentioned at EBACE was the status of the third full motion simulator or Eclipse’s ability to close the training gap. Eclipse had previously announced plans that the third simulator would be online in April. Eclipse had had made previous commitments to close the training gap in March and to have the third simulator online in March.

Last November, Eclipse was planning for an IPO in 2008. Now Vern is projecting being cash flow positive by mid 2009. That would seem to indicate plans for an IPO in 2008 have been pushed out.

Shane Price said...

Freedomjamtarts,

Boring?

Don't think so...

17 responses out of 28 (or 29) is an serious indication of interest. In less than 12 hours as well.

Oh, and oil hit $132.70. Did anyone else notice that?

Shane

Dave said...

Last November, Eclipse was planning for an IPO in 2008. Now Vern is projecting being cash flow positive by mid 2009. That would seem to indicate plans for an IPO in 2008 have been pushed out.

Vern has demonstrated that he's too scared for an IPO since being publicly held would require disclosure - and Vern hates transparency. Vern is probably freaked out of the thought that every quarter (if not more often) this board would read Eclipse's SEC filings...it's much easier for him as a weak CEO to go and sue people and businesses instead.

Shane Price said...

Flight,

There you go. Reading what Vern said and then trying to work out what he meant.

Just because the G400w is certified, in the FPJ, does not mean that Eclipse will INSTALL it.

In the FPJ.

Understand? The FAA will sign off on pretty much anything Vern sticks in front of them. However, there will be a time lag between this event and a) running down the stock of keyboards in ABQ and b) getting Garmin to SUPPLY enough G400w's...

So, as the last 'hurry, hurry, operators are standing by' offer from Mr. Raburn makes clear, what he SAYS he will supply the customer, and what the schmuck (sorry, valued partner) actually gets, is the difference between what Vern promises and what he MEANS.

Any clearer?

No, didn't think so.

All of this must make it really easy to value a second hand FPJ. Which version, of which revision, of which set of avionics? Aero mod or not? Hell, I've lost track, and I study this stuff....

Anyone heard from Mike Press recently, or has he finally given up and joined a closed monastic order?

Shane

Black Tulip said...

Who needs satire and parody when Vern continues to produce the best stuff? His interviews at EBACE are rich veins. I’m real glad I listened to the taped AIN interview as I did not realize the Garmin 400 was a Flight Management System. I’ll just have to head out to the airport and try pushing more buttons on the trusty Garmin 430 to find the FMS page. I find it remarkable that Vern gets a pass on this, and represents that Eclipse will thus meet its promises on avionics.

Reading the predictions also made me wonder what Vern would do if governed by the Securities Exchange Commission. Can you imagine a quarterly conference call conducted by Eclipse? The legal warning on forward looking statements would be longer than the entire rest of the call. The best part would be when the operator opened the call for questions. “Vern, this is Ken. Great quarter, excellent results, can you tell us more about…”

Dave said...

Who needs satire and parody when Vern continues to produce the best stuff? His interviews at EBACE are rich veins.

Pure comedy rhodium. Oh and speaking of comedy, Eclipse's lobbyist:
http://ethics.sos.state.nm.us/lobby/ECLIPS.HTM
is a self-described "hot air specialist":
http://www.tomrutherford.com/index.html
You can see his hot air with his LOOONG tribute video to himself.

gadfly said...

You have to know that the “gadfly” feels like an adopted child . . . always listed as “28 (or 29)" . . . you have no idea how many nights I have lain awake, wondering if I were adopted.

We told our youngest daughter, who had the same question, “Yes, you were adopted . . . but they brought you back.” (In time, she looks at us, and her husband and children . . . she knows she’s loved, and absolutely a part of our family.)

Well, regardless, it’s really something that seventeen (so far) of 29 (or 28, if I were adopted) have come “to the plate”, to help stop this nonsense . . . a bunch of lies and claims that have not, nor can, been fulfilled.

Up until now, I have attempted to keep my comments to the “technical issues”. But since I have recently been measured for “neck size”, and implied issues of “hemp rope” . . . such as, is “thirteen turns” correct, and should the noose be to the “left” or “right”, etc., (I jest), my attention has shifted to things “legal” and that sort of thing. Things like “counter suit” . . . and how to finance a “new home” . . . that sort of thing. (Me thinks that we’re starting to have some fun. Yes, indeedy do, we’re starting to have some very real fun.)

Serious people “in the know” want a new jet to succeed. We, in the Albuquerque area, would have been at the front of the line, wanting this thing to work. Believe me, we need the industry, far more than you can possibly imagine.

But this flying thing . . . (“what to call it?”) . . . this flying thing “ain’t it”! The original “promised” jet was a six place aircraft, with a “MTOW” of about 4,800 pounds . . . whatever . . . fill in the blanks at your leisure . . . and no matter what numbers you supply, nothing works . . . absolutely nothing! If you already put down your money in “good faith”. . . Sorry folks, but “you've ‘been had” . . . big time!

gadfly

And just about now, you’ll wish that the little jet had a “potty” as “standard equipment”. What say you?

eclipso said...

Ponzi:


The catch is that at some point one of three things will happen:

(1) the promoters will vanish, taking all the investment money (less payouts) with them;

(2)the scheme will collapse of its own weight, as investment slows and the promoters start having problems paying out the promised returns (and when they start having problems, the word spreads and more people start asking for their money, similar to a bank run);

(3)the scheme is exposed, because when legal authorities begin examining accounting records of the so-called enterprise they find that many of the "assets" that should exist do not.

Now an informal poll:
Are we at #1, #2, or #3?

I think it's all starting to blend together.

Shane Price said...

Gad,

I'm just trying to remain 'correct.' There were 28 'lines' on the subpoena.

As usual, Vern couldn't get it done when he linked you and flightcenter together, for all (blog) eternity.

But don't worry. We all know what he meant, even it was not what he said....

Hang on, was that not the point I was making earlier?

Shane

gadfly said...

Shane

You have (sniff!) comforted the very depths of my psyche . . . and I appreciate your concern.

gadfly

(Besides . . . gadflys can't count!)

eclipso said...

Gad,

You and Flightcenter have GOT to quit "linking". It's just not proper etiquette.

gadfly said...

eclipso

Now you've got me worried . . . this case comes up in California just after all the garbage coming down from the upper courts.

You have a point!

gadfly

airtaximan said...

BT,

you and I are definately on the same page here...


Amazing guy this Vern Raburn, isn't he?

Imaginative...

I've more than once suggested how "amusing" it will be to find him in the chair in front of authorities.

He testified to congress a few times, no?

Peddling the same bunch of BS...

I expect a full "insanity defense".

The Real Frank Castle said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”


So, there.

The Real Frank Castle said...

Well, I went back and read that again, does that mean that if I'd a kept my blog-mouth shut, they would have dropped trying to know who I am ?

If that's the case, what's up with all the disclaimers ?

I'm sooo confuuuused !!

Dave Ivedorne said...

RFC -

It's likely that Eclipse's legal beagles will try to argue that Honor Roll members who don't respond in some way to the Court have no objection to their identities being revealed to Captain Verntastic, and that that part of the subpoena should be satisfied (never mind the ludicrous overreach embodied in the argument). A possible basis for this might be that the motion to quash does not list any specific Doe as being represented, and that the motion should be treated as nothing more than an Amicus Curiae brief in response to the subpoena - the argument being that Mssrs. Jacobson & Malinski, Esq. lack the proper standing to speak as legal representatives of the Does.

Just a wild-arsed guess on my part though...

Would you like fries with that?
IANAL

MetalGuy said...

I think it’s worth repeating something that Baron posted in the last thread:

1 - Post every firm order (backed by a deposit) on their website like Boeing and Airbus do. (of course private owners ca elect to have their name ommited and have the order listed as "Individual from Orange County, CA" or "Corporation from Boca Raton, FL" instead).

The news from DayJet is a positive confirmation that any future orders or options from them are highly in question. However, I believe Vern has stated something to the contrary, and that Eclipse still has the full 2400(?) orders; or certainly has directly implied it.

If indeed some 50% – 60% or so of their order book has been put at significant risk, one would think that existing customers, vendors and employees, and especially future customers, vendors and employees should be told the truth.

I have to assume that there were many parties that made significant financial decisions based on the size of the claimed order book (which is a direct correlation to their future stability). If these decisions were made under false pretenses, or new business decisions are currently being made based on potentially artificially inflated order book numbers, it would seem a fairly logical way for claiming that any of these “contracts” were made under false pretenses.

If I were a customer, vendor, or even an employee that was looking for a legal way out of any contracts established with Eclipse, this would seem a natural area to dig deeply into. Contracts (including NDA’s) made under false pretenses may not be valid. Any discovery exercise based on a lawsuit would quickly bring all of this to light however, including in-depth knowledge of the background between Vern and Ed, and clarify any doubts as to whether the order book was “cooked”, just to make the number look good.

In a nut shell, I think it’s a huge legal risk that Eclipse is carrying in not disclosing the detailed nature of their order book, especially given all of the pending legal messes they have stirred up.

baron95 said...

Dave said... I think it should be investigated more to see if even more appearances of impropriety in New Mexico have occured if not impropriety itself such as outright payoffs and other such illicit dealings where such evidence is less easily obtained.

Thank you for clarifying. On this we can agree. If you are calling for investigating the appearance of impropriety to see if there is more, I'm all for it.

It sounded before that you were saying that Eclipse had some sort of moral obligation to stay in NM even if it did not make economic sense to the corporation just because they took public funds. That is ludicrous IMHO.

baron95 said...

In case I'm later added to the list...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

Shouldn't we all do this? Who says that Eclipse's lawyers can't add bloggers to the list in the future?

easybakeplane said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

easybakeplane said...

From EBACE

----------------
Eclipse’s plan for Russia moves toward production

http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/eclipses-plan-for-russia-moves-toward-production/

"Eclipse founder and CEO Vern Raburn said, “We will see lots of progress in Ulyanovsk this year and we are still on for late in the fourth quarter of 2009 to deliver the first aircraft” from this facility. "
-------------
Fred,

What are the odds that the authorities might be persuaded to certify the E500 just so they (Russian aviation companies) can get their hands on the 'new technology'?

expilot said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

easybakeplane said...

Dave,

My favorite part of the EASA cert delay article is the last paragraph where Vern states that the E500 won't have an TCAS II option because there's no room for the antenna!

Is BT over there helping Vern with interviews?

My experience is that most any antenna layout can be changed to allow for additional installations, if it's required.

I'd bet an easybake bundt cake that Vern doesn't want to the take the volume/weight/cost hit for this rather large system.

easybakeplane said...

Since no one else brought this one up either, I guess I will:

From BC/A Show News Day 2 (Av Week publication) page 18:

Titled:
Rayburn Says He's "Bullish," Sees Compelling Arguements For Eclipse Single

"We may have hit a home run with our Eclipse Concept Jet. We'll make more announcements later this year."

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/ebace052108/

(Well at least I agree on the 'Bullish' part, the smell anyway...)

PS - I see NO press releases about any orders from EBACE on any of the News outlets or on the Eclipse website.

fred said...

easybake ...

what are the chances the Russian authorities would consider Vern as he (vern) think he deserve to be treated ?

well , i have been working with Russians for quite some times ...

chances are : non-existent !

may be in the wildest dreams , but i doubt it ...just try to imagine Cessna Textron , its widely spread types of birds , its billions of cash , the numbers of items ALREADY ( already in this meaning= NOT intellectual masturbation of ownership) own in Russia in figure (even vern would consider UNREALISTIC EA500 can reach one day) and its new bird are going to have to wait for the Russian Cert... so what do you think is going to happen to a firm notoriously known for over-promising AND under-achievements , empty pockets ,bad management , taking to court whomever make the blasphemy to say "a flying piece of dung is still a piece of dung " and its no clearly stated "who's behind ?"

in one word , if you had to choose for getting "know-how" or "experience" or even "new technologies" :

would you ask one of the most established , renown for services , products and competences , with a prooven track of success ...

or would you care asking a firm which proclaimed to "change standards " , "bury old dinosaurs in their inability to change according to new needs or expectations " , a firm which have 3000 orders , no , 2500 , no , 2000 ? no ! 1000 ? niet ! so what left ? probably not a lot as proclaimed !! when they need a minimum of 500 a year to ONLY survive ?

do you really believe Russians are this stupid ? if yes = you are in for big surprises ...


about the EASA antenna :

i can imagine the scene Vern in front Cert.pool in EASA building ...

vern say :
sorry guys , I am the Vern of the Vernastic , and i tell you i won't comply with your demands , because i don't care or i don't have time and money to do or just because i don't have the place to put what is asked inboard without scrapping-off an other passenger seat ...

EASA board answer : oh yea ? then Fu...k off ! here you have nothing or no one in your sleeves ...!


dave : the credit-crunch doesn't make funds to disappear ... what is vanished is confidence in the capacity of paying back or at least to have not too much losses ...
(which is a clear indication of the amount of trust analysts have in a project)

most of the cash that was intended for loans is still around somewhere , just no one is willing to grant to ANY project , anymore ...

you can call it the revenge of brain VS greed !

fred said...

easybake ... (i forgot...)

what are the chances Russian authorities would undergo such "Vernpet's show" to get a grip on "new technologies" ?

well , sorry to say but the answezr is in the question ...

What "New Technologies" are you talking about ?
(sorry for the believers but apart the way it is marketed , what's new and WORKING properly in it ?)

When EADS had problems , the Russians came with the idea of re-funding thru the Bank "Банк Внешней Торговли " or VTB (already in capital at +/- 5% at the time ) the German and French Governments
had to rush in with cash (despite the breaking of a multitude of promises made about it ) to save EADS from Ivan's hands ...

so do you really believe EAC is playing on the same playground ? a firm that could be bought with a handful of cash ?? and for what results ? to put Vern instead of Lenin on Red-Square ?

vern should have learn how to walk before trying to run ...

Black Tulip said...

Vern should spend more time perfecting and building airplanes, and less time trying to suppress opinion. Eclipse will generate more unfavorable publicity in the next legal round.

“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;

For he to-day that sheds his blood with me

Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,

This day shall gentle his condition:

And gentlemen in the land now a-bed

Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,

And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks

That fought with us upon Subpoena Day."

Again, with apologies to William Shakespeare and Henry V.

airtaximan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
airtaximan said...

DayJet Expands Operations In Florida
May 22, 2008


By The AVweb Editorial Staff


"Less than two weeks after announcing cutbacks in staff, DayJet on Tuesday said it will expand its network of DayPorts, adding two more Florida cities, for a total of nine sites. With the addition of Jacksonville and Sarasota, 62 percent of Florida's population now lives within 35 miles of a DayPort airport, the company said in a statement on Tuesday. "Jacksonville and Sarasota are among the nation's leading business communities for job and economic growth," said Ed Iacobucci, DayJet president and CEO. "Now it is easier than ever for Floridians to enjoy our state's great quality of life, conduct business across the Southeast, and be home in time for dinner with their family." Sarasota already had a DayJet site with service for five destinations, but the upgraded site now will offer flights to 45 destinations. Customers must join the DayJet network, which costs up to $250, then can choose their fare based on how flexible they can be.

For example, a trip with a two-hour scheduling window from Sarasota-Bradenton to Tallahassee one-way would cost $1,156, but the same trip with a four-hour window would cost $309, the Herald Tribune reported on Wednesday."


OK, I'll bite: around 62% of 20Million or so people requires 12 planes for this service? That's 36 passenger seats, folks. Heck say they do 5 trips per plane per day, full... thats 180 seats.

Anyone?

Another question: how do you have a 4 hour window, and get home for dinner? Perhaps you could be home for dinner, but with a 4 hour window for each flight... that 8 hours at the outset... add 2 2.5 hour flights, 2 drives, and perhaps a stop or two...and the meeting time... even if your idea time was 7AM takeoff... there's no way.

Anyone?

Black Tulip said...

Off topic, I recently visited the Epic factory in Bend, Oregon. The seventeenth example of the Epic LT was flying and it is one beautiful aircraft. Gunner’s aircraft was just beginning the build process… go Gunner!

Dave said...

VERN CALLED "CASH ARSONIST"!

Here's the latest from Karen Di Piazza and the Teal Group:
Recently, Richard Aboulafia, vice president, analysis of Virginia-based Teal Group Corp., released the company's 18th Annual Business Jet Overview. The overview authored by Aboulafia, forecasted deliveries within the next decade. However, very light jets caught our attention. Deliveries of 3,365 VLJs were forecasted, with 1,385 Cessna Citation Mustangs and 925 Embraer Phenom 100s. What about the other 1,055 VLJ deliveries by 2018? Aboulafia told CharterX Industry Headline News, Eclipse Aviation Corp., for instance, "Just looking at the numbers, as I'm a market analyst, will continue to burn cash at an alarming rate. But no analyst can forecast irrational behavior."
Aboulafia says Eclipse, maker of the Eclipse 500 VLJ, will keep delivering planes and burning cash as long as investors stay in. "Eclipse's backers are basically giving matches to a cash arsonist," he said...

"There's a good chance that Eclipse might survive as a niche producer, after bankruptcy--probably inevitable, wipes out the up front investment and investors," he said. "It [Eclipse] would need to transition to responsible and competent management. I think pistons have a good chance of staking out a nice low-cost, on-demand position in the market--probably good for a few hundred planes [companies such as SATSair, which uses Cirrus SR22s]. It won't transform anyone's air travel system, but it's a nice modest business."

http://www.charterx.com/resources/article.aspx?id=3338

The article also talks about DayJet as well and alludes to an upcoming article that will focus on DayJet. I wonder how long until Eclipse sue Karen Di Piazza and the Teal Group in an attempt to silence them?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

EBACE results are in:

$5.3B in aircraft sold.

Cessna sold 20 Mustnags and 24 other Citations, total $750M.

EADS/Socata sold several TBM 850's, and Embraer sold 4 or 5 Phenom's.

Vern didn't announce any sales but he did receive a serious challenge to his EASA certification goals in the form of comments about Avio NfG being unfinished, FIKI being unfinished, and the descent performance of the Preemie Jet.

Damn dinosaurs.

mountainhigh said...

“This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Looks like 21 of the 29 on the Honor Roll have responded so far.

I would guess that Ringtail does not intend to reply having already identified himself, but what of our South Afriken Dentist and the other 6?

baron95 said...

I'v got to tell you, I'm surprised Eclipse is still up and running. If they were in a money squeeze at least 3 times (failed invetment at the 11th hour, midnight special for position holders, Etirc) how are they still around and delivering jets? I'd love to take a look at their operational numbers.

OTOH, they seem to be digging themselves and their customers a bigger and bigger hole. If my math is correct, Eclipse needs to retrofit:
1) 38 aircraft with aeromods/windows/etc.
2) 105 aircraft with Avio NG v1.0 HW
3) 121 aircraft with FIKI mods.
4) 265 aircraft with G400ws

I'm estimating that that alone represents some 500,000 hrs of labor at a cost of some $50M+

I just don't see them doing it on their dime or anytime soon.

I would not take delivery of any plane before SN265 (assuming the numbers hold).

airtaximan said...

baron,

points well taken... BUT,

what's the alternative?

Post your position oin Controller?
Call Mike Press?

Walk and get zipo?

The one thing I've noticed is that Vern treats the guys who have been his biggest fans and supporters, worst! He seems to think he has them by the balls, and he does.

They walk and get nothing.
They take the planes and they a laundry list of BS and future modifications... plus a lot of know problems.

Hobson's choice, really.

Dave said...

Stepping into the Wayback Machine...

From 2005 to the NM SIC:
Mr. Denker said that, once Eclipse is in full production with 1,000 aircraft per year, they expect to process an order in less than ten days from start to finish, including customer delivery.
http://www.sic.state.nm.us/PDF%20files/SIC%20minutes%208-23-05.pdf

From 2007 to the NM SIC:
Responding to questioning from Mr. Lewis, Mr. Birk said Eclipse plans to stay in its existing facility for the next two and a half years, giving them enough capacity to produce about 600-700 aircraft per year, and then they will need to find another facility to accommodate a larger production line. He commented that he thought this a very realistic approach.
http://www.sic.state.nm.us/PDF%20files/SIC10_23_07_Index_Minutes.pdf

Based on the latest report from Teal Group, 1000 jet deliveries per year isn't "very realistic" for Eclipse - more like reduce that number by a power of 10. So nice that taxpayer money and corporate welfare is being used for some nutty CEO's ego trip and to attempt to trample on the 1st amendment.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Aboulafia has hit the explanation on the head, there is no explaining irrational behavior.

At this stage, BK is the ONLY out I can see because it wipes out the original $1.X B investment and investors. It would also verly likely wipe out the warranty exposure on the older aircraft. I bet the wheels are turning in the corner office, squeeling with glee thinking about Thilert's announced position they will simply not honor any outstanding warranty or support issues.

There are only two choices as I see it - install some experienced adult supervision with a workable plan and become a niche player making 100-200 deliveries per year with a modest profit, or continue on for another 6-9 months, burning up cash and people until the whole thing collapses under its' own weight.

Cash Arsonist - now that is funny right there, I don;t care who ya' are that's funny.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the forming of this opinion/satire. Any scenes appearing to place NDA's in jeopardy were simulated.

Dave said...

what's the alternative?

Probably the best course of action would be a class action lawsuit while Eclipse still has some money. Eclipse will go into BK either way and how all these owners are positioned in the BK filing can make a difference as to where they end up as far as getting any compensation to partially offset their expenses.

It would be extremely interesting to know what value Eclipse has been booking for all the retrofits that are due owners as that is something that could be challenged in BK court.

As many of the owners as possible could band together and for instance claim that the Garmin G400 isn't the Avio NG they were promised and as such turn the tables on Vern and sue him for Breach of Contract. The same also applies for position holders.

The main thing is that the owners should act now before this reaches BK court rather than afterward or else they'll be completely up a creak. The reason to act now is that the civil trial could take place during BK court (that way the creditor pool can be determined) with a waiver but post-BK filing no lawsuits can even be filed against Eclipse until after the BK proceedings are over.

Dave said...

There are only two choices as I see it - install some experienced adult supervision with a workable plan and become a niche player making 100-200 deliveries per year with a modest profit, or continue on for another 6-9 months, burning up cash and people until the whole thing collapses under its' own weight.

I think Eclipse will end up being a 50-150 deliverer per year post-BK with completely new ownership and management. Maybe Cessna would be interested in Eclipse to corner a majority of the VLJ market...perhaps having three different models (a modified ECJ on the low end, an improved EA500 in the middle and the current Mustang on the high end...maybe create an upgraded Mustang in later versions of the Mustang to have a better product mix with greater differentiation) and be the General Motors of VLJ manufacturers. The EA500 manufacturing might or might not stay in NM, but it would have to be in much smaller facilities with less staff.

John said...

Cash Arson-- Some public information is available, and evidence of a March 2008 Equity sale.

Eclipse Aviation files "REGDEX" forms with the SEC when it sells capital stock.

"Regulation D Exemption" sales are private sales made to accredited investors. REGDEX forms are public documents and can be obtained by visiting the public records office of the SEC, having access to a Thompson Database, or by paying a small processing fee (24 cents/page) and getting copies. REGDEX filings are 10-20 pages long.

The Regdex forms have a bit of information on them, names of the control persons (ie. directors AND major stockholders). The total amount of the capital raised and its proposed use (in general categories) are given. REGDEX divides capital into already sold, and the proposed to be sold, and provides data on the commissions paid to sell the equity.

Regdex forms divide a tally of the purchasing investors up by individual states. If private equity is transfered from one owner to another outside the exemption, then the form shows that as well.

Recently Eclipse filed REGDEX forms on January 14, 2008-- the publicly announced ETRIC investment, BUT it also filed a REGDEX on March 7th, 2008. I don't believe the second sale was announced or characterized.

Links to REGDEX for Eclipse.


Sold January 2008


Sold March 2008
the use of the two CIK numbers are not explained.

If you want to see a sample REGDEX before purchasing, this website about Iacobucci's SCO adventure has pdfs available. ThreeNorth Vista Timeline and sample REGDEX

airtaximan said...

dave,

"I think Eclipse will end up being a 50-150 deliverer per year"

...what price?

volume price for brek even is around $1.5 million for say 500-700planes per year... so???

How much for "normal production rates?

Thought so.

Dave said...

...what price?
volume price for brek even is around $1.5 million for say 500-700planes per year... so???
How much for "normal production rates?
Thought so.


More than $1.5M. The manufacturing process would have to go back to square one with new facilities and all different fixed and variable costs and then people who can actually manage a business instead of just raising money and getting PR can do proper costing analysis.

BricklinNG said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380”

gadfly said...

Dave

You have been a great asset to this blog. But I would wish to present some thoughts . . . for the consideration of anyone that considers “picking up the pieces”.

In reality, Eclipse has nothing to sell. They do not have a real plane . . . that is, the one they promised. They have a “record” with far more questions than answers . . . no promise has yet been kept, as near as I can tell. They are not a “manufacturer” (quoting their own statements). They have “earned” a reputation that no legitimate business would want. Their political ties with NM are not assets, but liabilities. They have a workforce (partially skilled) that by all reports has been “abused” far beyond anything reasonable, and could easily pack up and leave town, based on the next airline schedule and “moving van” prices.

What’s left? . . . a few buildings next to an airport? . . . a “name” (“Eclipse” gives the impression of something “disappearing from view”)? . . . an attitude and history of a company with whom few vendors would wish to sign contracts? . . . a local reputation that is anything but good? (Word gets around very fast in Albuquerque . . . someone sneezes on the “northwest side of town”, and someone in the “southeast heights will call him within minutes to check on his health”. There are no secrets in Albuquerque . . . regardless of the countless “NDA’s” signed . . . and that’s just a matter of history going back many decades.)

Many here would welcome someone of “excellence” taking charge. But in reality, we wouldn’t wish this company on our enemies. For someone else to come into the area . . . set up shop . . . we say, by all means, Do it, and do it soon! But do not make any deals with the local politicians (at any level), and do it with a product that will “fly on it’s own” . . . there are good people here, and excellent support facilities, and you’ll get good service . . . but watch out for those that have already done great harm.

Yes, I’m preaching to the choir . . . as any business person in Albuquerque already knows.

gadfly

(And speaking of music, “C Sharp” or “B Flat” . . . if you get the tone of my message.)

chickasaw said...

The London Free Press reported today that "Smart Air (Luxembourg) ordered 8 D-Jets from Diamond. Diamond has 350 orders for the SEJ. The D-Jet will start production in mid-2009".

You can find the whole article at the papers website.

By the way Dave; Moving to a smaller facility with less staff would be a bad idea. Planes are very labor intensive to manufacture.

baron95 said...

airtaximan said...
what's the alternative?


Well, I'd have to see the Eclipse purchasing/deposit agreement to say for sure, but the alternative would be something like this.

Refuse Delivery due to incomplete product not matching purchase contract. Demand deposit back. IF you don't get it, file immediate lawsuit. File motion asking judge to force Eclipse to put ammount in dispute (deposit) in escrow immediately. Call your local attorney general and/or FBI office (if agreement/deposit was done accross state lines or mail) to investigate Eclipse for fraudulent or deceptive practices and mail fraud (this is to put additional presure to settle). Simultaneiously file suit as a creditor (incomplete aircraft - late) to force Eclipse into Bankruptcy. Start aggressive discovery and have your attorney call press conferences.

Fair chance of getting your deposit back, minus 10% is attorney fees.

If you still want an Eclipse, sit tight and wait for SNs past 265 to show up in the marketplace.

Second Choice:

2 months prior to delivery, locate a buyer that is willing to pay at least your contract price for the E500. Given that early posiiton holdesr have a much lower price, there is a chance to hook one.

The LAST think I'd have done is take delivery of say SN100 and pay full price. That is just stupid.

[Again, I say all that without having access to the Eclipse purchasing contract. Maybe Vern does have all the depositors by the balls]

Dave said...

By the way Dave; Moving to a smaller facility with less staff would be a bad idea. Planes are very labor intensive to manufacture.

Using the Cessna Mustang manufacturing plant as a baseline:
With over 200 orders already taken, Cessna anticipates Citation Mustang deliveries to be higher than any other Citation model. When the Mustang reaches full production, Cessna expects to have increased its Independence workforce by approximately 500. Currently, Cessna employs approximately 350 people in Independence.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=110047&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=959398&highlight=
Eclipse's staff is about 3X too large. Perhaps someone with aircraft manufacturing experience can elaborate, but having 1600 employees to manufacture 160 jets per year (an optimistic volume) seems rather high.

Also in response to an earlier thread I do believe that Eclipse does have valuable assets - if they are obtained in a liquidation of assets rather than a purchase of the company. The single engine jet could be a good product, there's also the value of the manufacturing equipment and other such things. Taking the business as it is would be a white elephant, but BK can clean the slate and eliminate the unappealing arrangements Vern has made with renting facilities, loans, supplier contracts, customer contracts, etc. Many people all along the food chain will get burned, but I do believe there is something salvageable there under the right circumstances and a BK judge can create the right circumstances. Just don't let Vern get away with a Chapter 11 unless a Trustee - rather than existing management - are in charge. Chapter 7 would probably be more appropriate or else creditors will end up continuing to pay for Vern's mismanagement.

Dave said...

Again, I say all that without having access to the Eclipse purchasing contract. Maybe Vern does have all the depositors by the balls

I basically agree with you. I do think that Vern does wield power over those acting independently, but if there's a class action and there's coordinated actions taken, the power can be taken back. There's two battles involved and sooner or later Vern will catch on - he can win the legal battle, but he can still lose the war if the PR goes bad for him...this could cost him future orders (seeing current customers sue isn't exactly motivational for prospective new customers), politicians will abandon him (much harder to get deals from the federal/state/local governments...especially hard for Eclipse since they've been so reliant on corporate welfare) and he could find himself criminally investigated at all levels (which knowledge of a criminal investigation would itself have cascading effects even if no criminal prosecution ever happens). Given all this, Vern might settle for X Cents on the Dollar before the plaintiff's attorney files the case and makes it public.

Eclipse (mainly Vern) has shown itself very poor in their ability to scenario plan and foresee the full consequences of their actions, so Vern might not see that a quiet settlement before court papers are filed are best for everyone, but he could quickly find himself shown the door as all these things pile up.

baron95 said...

gadfly said...
In reality, Eclipse has nothing to sell. They do not have a real plane . . .


With all due respect, you are simply wrong. In a post bankruptcy sale (CH11 or 7) Eclipse will have NO liabilities and several assets, including (to list a few).

TC and PC for EA500 - Worth some $200M+ (It matters little if it is the jet they promised or not - fact is they have a TC and PC for a modern turbofan airplane that seems to be an OK airframe in need of an avionics upgrade). That certainly has value.

Tooling for above Jet - prob some $25M.

Buildings, facilities, trained workforce for above. Prob another $25M.

For any company/individual/group (e.g. ETIRC, EADS, etc) intent on continuing develoment of the EA500/ECJ or servicing the 200+ fleet, starting with vs without the Eclipse assets are a *HUGE* difference. It is worth some $300M give or take.

I think you'd agree that the value of Eclipse assets is more than ZERO (even scrap aluminum has value). You can argue about the value. What do you think the assets will fetch in a post BK sale?

I'd guess $150M-$200M (50-50% of book value).

Perhaps by you putting your value estimate, we can stop once and for all just saying that Eclipse has no value or Eclipse has no assets - both of which are ludicrous.

chickasaw said...

Dave,

Where did you get 1600 employees? I have manufacturing experience and when you have to drill, ream and countersink 30,000 holes for rivets it is labor intensive.

baron95 said...

Dave said... Currently, Cessna employs approximately 350 people in Independence.


That information is misleading. Cessna has 350 employees dedicated to Mustang mannufactur in Independence. The Independence site has a lot more people assembling the pistons + overhear/admin, etc.

You simple can't compare the Cessna Mustang delta with all the Eclipse employees which run a full company.

Besides, even with all its problems, Eclipse seems to be delivering 2-3 planes for each Mustang. So they should have 3x the mannufacturing staff and sinre ops/overhead is usually 2 to 1 for small mannufacturers Eclipse staff levels of some 1,500 people seems to be in the right ballpark. I see nothing wrong with that. It certainly passes my smell test.

John said...

Historic DayJet use of Sarasota and Jacksonville.
Sarasota is the 8th or 9th busiest Dayjet field, so its expansion is warranted by the existing pax base OF 3 TO 4 average flights per week.
Jacksonville Intl has practically no past record, so its development is an attempt to compete for a new passenger base.

Departure … Arrival

Week KSRQ … KSRQ

0 …
1 …
2 …
3 …
4 …
5 0:10 … 0:43
6 …
7 1:27 … 1:23
8 …
9 3:24 … 3:34
10 …
11 1:21 … 1:22
12 0:37 … 0:41
13 …
14 …
15 2:11 … 1:59
16 1:23 … 0:47
17 1:32 … 1:09
18 2:48 … 2:39
19 3:59 … 4:01
20 4:00 … 2:27
21 6:05 … 6:06
22 4:03 … 3:42
23 …
24 4:28 … 4:31
25 4:58 … 4:03
26 1:26 … 2:00
27 1:48 … 2:14
28 3:07 … 2:50
29 1:07 … 1:29
30 2:08 … 2:05
31 …
32 2:52 … 2:52
33 2:37 … 2:31

Total 57:31 … 55:08



depart … ARRIVAL
Week KJAX … KJAX

0 …
1 …
2 …
3 …
4 …
5 …
6 …
7 …
8 …
9 …
10 …
11 …
12 …
13 …
14 …
15 …
16 …
17 …
18 …
19 …
20 …
21 …
22 …
23 …
24 …
25 …
26 …
27 …
28 …
29 …
30 …
31 1:49 … 1:14
32 3:28 … 4:21
33 1:57 … 0:34

Total 7:14 … 6:09

eclipso said...

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS239US240&q=eclipse+aviation+lawsuits

Just google "eclipse aviation lawsuits" and it get overwelming at the pages of info to look at. A good comparison page for looking at previous predictions vs. what was predicted here.



http://www.jetwhine.com/page/2/

Eclipse Aviation president Vern Raburn said his company does not wish to shut down the offending blog, but does not believe it is legal for unnamed authors to defame the company’s products while Eclipse simply stands by and watches from the sidelines. He said his company should have an opportunity to know precisely who is saying what about its products.

Like I said before about Eddie Chiles....I'm mad

...but this guy REALLY pisses me off...why does he think he's always the victim...

what a....oh, never mind

airtaximan said...

he's been playing the victim,
entrepreneur, successful business person and revolutionary for a long time now.

PLAYING.

He's "connected" to people, but that's about it. He's not connected to reality in aviation -that's for sure.

Hey Vern... apparently, you read the blog enough to know what's written here... why not post a reply or two - if you have time to read, you have time to post.

And your complaint is "Eclipse simply stands by and watches from the sidelines"

So, move your ass and rebutt. Mitigate the dammages we've casue you - OH WAIT - you caused them, we just point them out.

Dave said...

Hey Vern... apparently, you read the blog enough to know what's written here... why not post a reply or two - if you have time to read, you have time to post.

Because Vern wants to publicly show the world he's a liar. Vern said that he'd answer non-anonymous critics and he's failed to do that both before his lawsuit and after when even more bloggers were IDed. Vern's continued failure to respond after his promise to do so only further shows that his lawsuit was meant to be a SLAPP lawsuit.

One thing is for sure though with this big mess that Vern has created along with his foolish lawsuits - it will be the lawyers who prosper the most out of all this. Maybe Vern should rename Eclipse Aviation to Eclipse Litigation.

airtaximan said...

1500 total staff at what $65000/year average?

That's +/-$100 million

That's 1 million for every plane delivered last year... only accounting for the annual salaries - the planes were started in mid 2006, so its more like $1.5 million per plane in labor alone for the first hundred. (I know, its all the employees, not direct labor) Still....

That's around $500,000 for every plane delivered in 2008 if they deliver 200.

Plus all the other costs?

Are you kidding me?

Any clue about the parts cost?
Engines? $400,000
Structure? $500,000
Avionics? $150,000
Systems? $100,000
Interior? $20,000
Other? $80,000

best case: $1.25M cost...

Anyone have better intel on this?

Vern, you there?

heck - refurb, mods, warrantee, avionics retrofit, FIKI, etc... add another....WHAT?

Nightmare.

airtaximan said...

"With over 200 orders already taken, Cessna anticipates Citation Mustang deliveries to be higher than any other Citation model."

I read somewhere they have more than 500 orders. This puts them on par with eclipse - give or take an AVIACE, NIMBUS, DAYJET OR POGO order.

Vern, please rebutt.....

gadfly said...

Don’t you love it when the “expert witness” for the investment of your money gets his information from the “newspaper”?

“Mr. Birk reported that, based on press reports, Eclipse began shipping the Eclipse 500 in May, and has now delivered about 50 planes.” . . . that was last fall, 2007.

Doesn’t that give you confidence in your elected leaders when you learn that your “tax portfolio” is based on the “daily rag”? (According to my latest “inside information”, not a single aircraft has yet been delivered that meets the list of promises, nor even the FAA list of compliant aircraft . . . you know, one without all those nasty “in-op” labels plastered all over the place. Oh, the source of my “inside information”? . . . the same as everyone else, including the “funny pages”.)

Now, that gives me assurance that the state is investing our tax dollars in a most wise manner. Are there any further questions as to “why” the great enterprise of “Eclipse” came to New Mexico?

Shucks! I’ll continue to remain firm that the most intelligent part of the paper is the “funnies” section . . . and I’ll get my daily financial advice while enjoying a few minutes of meditation on the “porcelain throne”, ‘midst the latest of “Gasoline Alley”, “Peanuts”, “Crock”, . . . etc. And, of course, as all good things must come to an end, I need to get off the “throne” and go to work ‘just like everyone else, and earn my living . . . to pay for all this nonsense.

gadfly

(Now, to go back and await my “hanging” . . . along with the others of the infamous “29". And for the “purists’”, yes I know that it should be “C Sharp” or “b flat”.)

(And a further note to "B95" . . . almost any CNC machine is worth almost nothing if seven years old . . . technology moves so fast . . . and a "Stir Fried Welding Machine" has almost no use for anyone . . . even the original owner after five years or so . . . we live in a "throw-away" world. That's not necessarily bad, but simply the reality of the beast. I remain firm . . . Eclipse has "nothing to sell" that could not be duplicated with the latest and greatest with less baggage and heartache than the "scrap prices" of the Eclipse equipment. Fight it all you want . . . "them is the facts" . . . it's the world in which I live, and know of which I speak.)

airtaximan said...

baron,

regarding "Alternatives"

I sated the "post on controller" alternative - not really an alternative...

And, the "I don't want that heap of junk" alternative, leaves a buyer with a firm grip on an empty bag...plus, a diminished reputation/business situation for eclipse.

If eclipse begins refunding deposits... err...its OVER.

I would guess no one has received a deposit back. Just a "hunch".

Vern care to chime in?

I would guess, every individual buyer is treated as if they will lose their deposit, should they refuse the "plane".

Otherwise, soething tells me... MANY people would be claiming their deposits back.

If a bunch of position-holders ask for their money back - the jig is up.

Lets see... defections from the die-hards AND from 1/2 the other half (or more) of the orderbook - DAYJET - where's this refund money coming from?

What's left?

Nothing except the stain.

airtaximan said...

gafly,

they have the organization, TC, PC, talent, tooling and parts to deliver a plane that costs $2.X Mil and sells for $1.X Mil.

Any takers?

Also, they owe around $3-400k per plane in fixes.

Also, this is at a rate of production for a thousand planes a year where there's a market for a maybe a hundred.

Any takers?

I think you are right, my friend.

THERE IS NO VALUE.

Vern care to provide some insight here?

airtaximan said...

Norman and Gunner,

perhaps its not a bad idea to INVITE eclipse and Vern to the blog. Just to make sure they are aware of the opportunity they apparently so desire to be heard?

Anyone have Vern's email?
The PR department?

Just a thought.

Its always nice to be invited.

Shane Price said...

Eclipse will not now return a deposit.

Fact.

What has changed since a number of our fellow bloggers were successful in getting their money back, when the contract they signed was 'varied' by Eclipse?

Well, I think I know the answer to my own question.

Right now, Vern is a 'cash arsonist' who can't give anyone, for any reason, any real money.

Shane

airtaximan said...

anyone who has received a deposit back from eclipse since Mid 2006, please raise your hand....

Vern, you can chime in here, and set the record straight...

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

Last night, I lit that snake up with my “LED” flashlight (amazing technology for sure), and lined up the sights of my “spring air” pistole (BSF . . . Bavarian, if you’re interested in that sort of thing) right behind his head . . . pulled the trigger . . . the 4.5mm pellet went right through his spine at about 470 fps. And yet, that stupid reptile thought he could fight back for a few seconds . . . “no way”. The dog looked him over and pronounced him “dead”. You see, I have this thing about snakes that wish to eat the fish in my “ponds” . . . you could say that we have a difference of opinion .

And when it comes to someone that claims great things in the industry in which I have spent the better part of my life, and does not deliver . . . well, let’s say that we have a “difference of opinion”. When you deal with “reptiles”, you must be careful that they don’t get a grip on you. ‘Let them have their way, and before you know it the “pond” is empty of new fish.

gadfly

(taximan . . . we're on the same page. A dead snake, if it's big enough, will bring a couple bucks for its "hide" (for a "belt"), but this little dead reptile will begin to "stink" real soon . . . and there is nothing quite like a dead snake.)

BryanA said...

Controller now has 70 listing for Eclipse jets.

A new record?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
airtaximan said...

70 is definately a record...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

B95,

I think your valuation is off by an order of magnitude based on the last several dead programs that have been bought and resurrected.

Eclipse comes potentially with a $100M (or more, way more) liability, JUST for rework for the previously 'delivered' incomplete and partially functional aircraft. That does not address the warranty and support costs the ridiculous failures seen on the SDR reports which in theory should be passed back to the vendors (for a conventional or dinosaur they would be anyway).

If there is a post BK operation, expect the same result as Thielert - no support, no warranty, without paying for it, AGAIN.

The fielded aircraft represent a huge unknown, not in terms of potential profit but in terms of likely costs to support - it cannot be predicted but in my experience it represents far more risk than potential reward. There are companies out there that have been making complex aircraft for decades that find this difficult but they design and make good planes. Are we to assume that where Vern and crew cannot get the design and build right they will get the more occult elements of supportability and profitability right? Sure, just like they did for schedule, budgets, FIKI, FMS and a host of others.

This is a lost cause in its' current form. Vern knows that, the BoD knows it, some of the management team probably know it, maybe even some of the rank and file. The dream is over, all that remains is a nightmare of missed schedules, unmet promises, and a lowering of expectations on a previously unknown scale.

U.S. flag carriers are going tits up unable to make money carrying hundreds of fare paying passengers and the one customer that represents over 40% of the vaporware Eclipse orderbook is selling or leasing 60% of its fleet and just laid off half its' staff. All of the other fleet operators to date save the investor ETIRC have vaporized, their 'floptions' gone, but not removed from the order book.

Vern now suggests the e-CON jet to be the next big thing - envisioned to sell at a rate that alters the current situation by a factor of 6 or better.

You can't make this stuff up - but Vern and crew can.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the forming of this opinion/satire. Any scenes appearing to place NDA's in jeopardy were simulated.

BryanA said...

How do you 28 "honor roll" members feel, knowing that Vern has every intention of punishing you (AND your families since you are likely the breadwinners) the same way he is going after Brian Skupa and his family?

You look at your kids, and think that to fight Eclipse it may cost a year of your childs' college education.

That has really got to piss you off!

Vern doesn't appear to be backing down, either.

One wonders just how did Vern's ego get so fricking big that he thinks he can attack (and punish) 28 people? And for what...telling the truth!

Here's a thought - it shouldn't be that hard for him to get the IP addresses of the bloggers - after all he still has a few friends at Microsoft and they have friends at Google and the IP addresses may just somehow "fall in his lap".

But if Eclipse is really as short of money as most think, then Vern is nuts to run the risk of having to fight 28 separate countersuits against Eclipse, in 28 separate cities. Imagine the time, manpower and expense of that for Eclipse. It may be the last straw that drives them into BK.

baron95 said...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Eclipse comes potentially with a $100M (or more, way more) liability, JUST for rework for the previously 'delivered' incomplete and partially functional aircraft.


Liability!!!!???? We are talking about a post BK acquisition. There is NO liability, ZERO, NADA.

The incomplete jets rework, servicing, parts, support is CAPTIVE REVENUE OPORTUNITY for whomever buys the TC/PC/Tooling/Docs. Perhaps you don't know how post BK acquisitions work.

Lets say that Eclipse goes CH7 in late 08 with some 400 partially completed jets in the field. And I buy the Eclipse TC/PC/tooling/Operations/Buildings/etc free and clear after Ch7. No warranty, no rework liability, nothing.

Now the owners of those 400 $1.5M jets, representing a $600M investment have NOWHERE to go for parts, rework of avionics, retrofit of FIKI, etc. They can only come to me. I am the ONLY entity that can prevent their $600M in planes to be a lawn ornament.

On top of that, I get the right to produce and sell (for whatever the market will bear) new planes.

How much is that business worth?

That is the post BK value of Eclipse. I think it is worth $150M-$200M depending on the umber of planes in the field at the time and the state of completion of FIKI and 400W production.

There is virtually ZERO chance of Eclipse assets fetching less than $100M if they fold the tent in late 08. Just supporting a fleet of some 400 jets with exclusivity rights is worth that much.

gadfly said...

For some, we would call it “Hospice” . . . and for others, “Palliative care”. In either case, the goal is to prevent and relieve suffering and to improve the quality of life for people facing serious, complex illness.

Question: Does this apply to those who purchased, or placed deposits on, the “little jet”?

It is with mixed feeling that we “feel” for those who have invested (in ignorance) in the “little jet”, and those “others” who walked in with eyes wide open . . . knowing all along what was going on.

And yet we have the greatest of sympathy for the many who bought into the promises of a successful business . . . working long hours with the promise of great returns . . . not yet realizing that in this world, and especially in the “Land of Enchantment” (New Mexico), there is “no free lunch”.

Some of us have already “paid our dues” on other great promises, in this “land of opportunity”, . . . having learned the hard way that there is no excuse for ignorance . . . and certainly none for stupidity . . . education and wisdom often come at a high price.

Regardless, we wish for no-one to suffer at the expense of “others”, yet it is coming down to that. We watch and wonder . . . how long?, how much more? . . . and yet there is no clear end in sight. ‘Only that it will end, and the end will not be pleasant.

gadfly

(All the warnings have been given . . . and yet, the warnings seem to go unheeded!)

(And to "bryana" . . . the count is really 29 . . . but little matter. We do what we can, and it's obvious that the "man" can't even accurately hit the target . . . let alone produce the product that he promised.)

Dave said...

You can't make this stuff up - but Vern and crew can.

Vern seems to think that what he got away with at Microsoft would fly in the aviation industry. Overpromising and underdelivering might work for monopoly software companies, but not for pipsqueek jet manufacturers. Like gosh, what's the Eclipse 500 up to now - Service Pack 4 and they still don't have everything worked out with all the retrofits that will be required. Even at Microsoft it only takes until SP2 or SP3 for the beta testing on customers to be over. Then there's Vern whining about suppliers how that they aren't doing things his way - he's like a freakin' mouse that roared...he's not Walmart and suppliers who did go along with him based on his prior projections got burned big time because Eclipse isn't an especially big client like it pretends to be.

When Eclipse collapses look for fallout:
* NM SIC fiduciaries who took money from Vern in a clear conflict of interest
* Brian Birk who recommended his own firm's portfolio companies in a clear case of self-dealing and who didn't do due diligence when advising the NM SIC
* Fallout for county and city politicians who have an appearance of impropriety if not actual impropriety - huge fallout could come if Eclipse defaults on the $45 million Industrial Revenue Bond. The IRB was modified relatively recently and if it looks like those politicians didn't do due diligence, they could catch more heat than the state politicians since even more taxpayer money is involved than with the NM SIC.
* All politicians who have given benefits to Eclipse at the cost of taxpayers better hope they didn't take any money from Eclipse or are in any way connected to be seen as having a conflict of interest.
* Popcorn companies - their sales will go up as people watch all this from the sidelines.

baron95 said...

AT said...
Any clue about the parts cost?
Engines? $400,000


For one, maybe, not two ;) Eclipse is probably paying in the neighborhood of $375K for ONE PWC610. If only turbofans where that check ;)

baron95 said...

As for Russia, I'm not too thrilled with the PWC610 being exported to Russia. That class of small turbofan is a critical technology for cruise missile development.

Once you have a small turbofan and GPS guidance, it takes very little to develop a medium range cruise missile to deliver a war head from say Iran to Israel.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Baron,

How many of the folks who will have accepted delivery of their $1.5M aircraft are going to be able to absorb an additional $250-300K in expense just to be able to operate their aircraft like any dinosaur produced since the late 60's? Those orphans are more likely to be gate guards and paper weights IMO.

Who will deal with the inevitable AD's?

EASA Cert?

Completion of FIKI?

Glitches for Avio NfG Ver-whatever?

Sorry, I don't see any of that as assets, the ROI is unpredictable, and whoever holds the TC/PC will take on the liability of warranty support at least insofar as any AD's, SAIB's, etc. Given Eclipse's track record to-date, I see only downside - how many unforseen issues are waiting in the wings (pun intended).

FWIW Russia has been building and exporting turbofan cruise missiles since '88. Most of them have a greater full fuel payload than the Preemie Jet, and are at least as reliable.

Dave said...

To borrow from one of my favorite comedy shows I'll rephrase this quote from politics and turn it into Vern being a government-subsidized CEO:
Being Eclipse CEO is a vast subsidized ego-trip. It's a job that needs no qualifications, it has no compulsory hours of work, no performance standards, and provides a warm room, a telephone and subsidized meals to a self-important windbag who suddenly find people taking him seriously because he's got the letters 'CEO' after his name.
http://www.jonathanlynn.com/tv/yes_minister_series/yes_minister_episode_quotes.htm

This also applies to Vern:
If people don't know what you're doing, they don't know what you're doing wrong.

If we cannot refute the arguments in a paper, we simply discredit the person who wrote it. This is called playing the man and not the ball.

Press statements are not delivered under oath.

As long as there is anything to be gained by saying nothing, it is always better to say nothing than anything.

smartmoves said...

Hey Baron - our Russian friends dont need to develop anything from the PW - they can just buy all the FPJs, fill em up with fertiliser and Stolle, install LF radio control gear and they have the "vodka cruiser"..."ready for Smirnoff" SM

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

To further my point above, the retrofit costs, if carried by the 'captive revenue source', read that former EAC customers and would be members of the Eclipse Jet Jockey Club, are likely equivalent to one or two year's planned operating expenses, perhaps more.

That is several hundred thousand in unplanned expenses -

before one cent of fuel is burned,

before one mile is covered,

before one takeoff is completed,

before one shopping trip for your long suffering wife,

before one trip to CO for skiing,

before one trip to your kid's college.

That should be a sobering thought to any 'captive revenue sources' out there.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the forming of this opinion/satire. Any scenes appearing to place NDA's in jeopardy were simulated.

Dave said...

That should be a sobering thought to any 'captive revenue sources' out there.

Yes, but there probably is some viable market for Eclipse's assets such as to be able to service and upgrade the Eclipse 500. I'd put the value between $10 million and $100 million for everything Eclipse has of value. The value would probably depend on exactly how many Eclipse 500s are made before BK, with the more that are made, the greather the value to provide parts, servicing and upgrades.

What I see happening is that the Eclipse's resale value drops like a rock because it would then be an incomplete aircraft from a defunct manufacturer with a large price tag to get the jet up to snuff. Many then-owners might end up selling their aircraft for a huge loss rather than throw good money after to bad given their bad experience, but others might want to shell out the complete rock bottom prices plus the upgrade costs just to be able to own a jet.

I've come from the service side of the tech industry and its amazing how long after a product becomes obsolete that it is still serviced and parts are saught. It can go on for decades after a part has gone out of production and this is in an industry where things became outdated in a matter of months. Parts and servicing is unglamorous and would be a shell compared to the original market, but money can definitely be made if done right. An unknown vulture capitalist could do it or better yet a known aviation industry company could take it over and that itself could add value if the company is respected...not a sexy business that gets your name in the press, but a potentially lucrative niche business. Cessna for example could take over that business and also make some deal for the position holders where their deposit can be converted into a deposit for the Mustang...I don't know the margins on the Mustang, but Cessna and other VLJ manufacturers could put out ads poaching Eclipse position holders now if they could afford to take the hit by discounting their offerings the amount of the deposit.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

dave ...

you've got a valid point on services ...

but as you said , if a "vulture capitalist" get into the story ,
he could think this way :

why should i buy something for a said value if i can get it for a fraction ?

remember value for ANYTHING = what amount someone is WILLING and ABLE to pay !

if in your garden you find a 1 kilo Diamond , if no one is interested to own it = its value is ... the price of a paper-press
! (same for everything , i personally know one who has a house to sell for the last 8 years ...because the next owner is never willing to pay enough for something that is only depreciating more and more over time...)

so in the case of FPJ , why any sensible bizzman should pay a stated value ?

it is another example of "cash is king" ...

in this case EA500 postBK services could be a potential earner ...
but ONLY if this Bizzman state very clearly from beginning "i'll pay a cent MAXIMUM for a $"

so the remaining value of the firm is to remain unknown until someone being "Mad enough" , "Brave" , "Such a Talented Crook" (erase the ones you don't use ) is willing and able to take on ...

as for Cessna (or any other) taking that particular activity :

What for ? to get more headaches than profits ? to associate theirs names with something that will probably be known as "such a brilliant failure" ?

i don't really see the point in it , it could work ONLY if thoses would care about those "positions holders and buyers " ...

the crucial question then is "Why should they ??"

when you buy a "tata micro-car" , you are not entitled to go to BMW and say " you warned me that this wasn't the real deal , but still you owe me some respect for my foolishness !"

for profits ? would work well IF they were in the need of making some profits ... i don't think it is the case ... and that would be a VERY good example of "Greed VS Brain " (remember : 80 % of something working is always MUCH better than 100 % of something NOT working )

no the only way i see EAC to have some remaining value =
if the "Serious" manufacturer want to "clean-up " the market , they could be tempted to hide the "thing" in their garden ...

and like this , the CEO from textron asked about EA500 would answer " ECLI... what ??? never heard such a name ...!! "

market would benefit of such move , EAC only being the one to pull in a downward spin the whole concept ...!!!

fred said...

baron95 ...

your comments about turbofan and Russia are somehow quite funny ...

would you believe me if i would tell you some spies from Rodina came to Berlin last week to steal a revolutionary concept :

"Electricity "

next week , they intends to steal from UK , something even more amazingly new :

"Telephone"

well , off course this is kidding ...!

may be it is time for some to understand the Soviet-Union is gone ... ;-)

if they want something , they just buy it !! they have all the cash in the world to do it ...

agroth said...

This notice shall confirm my affirmation that I be represented by Norman Malinski, Esq. in all proceedings under that legal action currently referenced in the Superior Court of California as

ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, Plaintiff vs. JOHN DOE; JANE DOE; ET AL, Defendants
Case No.: 108CV110380

Shane Price said...

Thanks to all on the 'Honor Roll' who have responded so far. This makes Norman's job easier, as it shows a united front.

In the light of this, and knowing that many check out the blog in spare time at weekends, I propose to leave this thread running until Tuesday next, and might even let it go a bit longer.

Unless Vern does something REALLY stupid in the meantime, of course....

Shane
PS. Oil at $133.59 a barrel and one Euro buys you $1.58

Dave said...

Unless Vern does something REALLY stupid in the meantime, of course....

I'd take that for granted. Vern's ranting is becoming more and more delusional.

Gunner said...

Bryana asked;
"How do you 28 "honor roll" members feel, knowing that Vern has every intention of punishing you"

I'm not on the list....but. I should think most feel like they've been attacked by an aging, frothing, arthritic, toothless Chihuahua. I'd mention Vern in that same sentence, but I'm trying not to repeat myself.

Hey, Vernster. Looks like 24 of The Honored have stood up with a collective cry of "Bite Me". It must really suck to be you. See you at the hearing, I hope.
Gunner

baron95 said...

CW said... whoever holds the TC/PC will take on the liability of warranty support at least insofar as any AD's, SAIB's, etc.

Sorry, it is not how it works. There is no such liability after BK (look up for instance New Piper). The new PC/TC/asset holder has the right, but not an obligation to provide service/support/AD-fixes. What Eclipse must now provide for under existing contracts, they can charge whatever they want for. That is the value.

As for Russia and cruise missiles - no doubt Russia can do it. The issue is how much better (range/payload) their cruise missiles would be if they have access to the technology in the BEST (SFC, thrust to weight, etc) small turbofan in the world the PWC600 series.

baron95 said...

Fred said... may be it is time for some to understand the Soviet-Union is gone ... ;-)

if they want something , they just buy it !! they have all the cash in the world to do it ...


You should be careful when you assume people are ignorant of something (like Russia) and then go on to make high-school level assertions.

Tell me...

What is the sale price to Russia of say the the APG-79 AESA radar? Or how about the Aim 120 "Slammer" D guidance system? They can't get it at any price. Similarly, small turbofan engines are on a controlled export list for a reason. They are dual application technology.

And for your info, I have done extensive work licensing Russian technology to US companies - so you just couldn't be more wrong.

baron95 said...

Dave said ... I'd put the value between $10 million and $100 million for everything Eclipse has of value. The value would probably depend on exactly how many Eclipse 500s are made before BK,

Further, the post BK value of Eclipse is directly proportional to the size of fleet in the field that has not been upgraded.

That is why I was making the point that depositors should not take pre SN265 aircraft. They'd be had by the balls by the post BK entity.

The more incomplete jets Eclipse pumps out the more the assets are worth. For a current owner, the more incomplete your plane is the more you'll have t oshell out to post BK entity to have it up to standard.

As for how much they'll fetch... Pieper a sophisticated investor, now Chairman of Eclipse (Vern's Boss), with access to all available info, recently decided to pump $100M+ into Eclipse.

That is why I say, with confidence, that the liquidation will fetch more than $100M.

gadfly said...

Regardless of your thoughts concerning the Russians and the possible use of the little jet for developing missiles to attack Israel, some of us “dinosaurs” developed a dis-trust of “bears” a long time ago. In fact, I have spent countless hours just “beneath the surface” while “they” conducted their patrols directly “overhead” *.

Here’s a quote from a recent fatal attack by another kind of “bear” . . . a furry one:
BIG BEAR LAKE, Calif.---- The owner of a wild animal training center where a grizzly bear killed a handler says the animal is a ''loving, affectionate, friendly, safe bear,'' but he is at a loss to explain how a ''simple routine'' turned tragic.

Somehow, me thinks that the new relationship between Eclipse and the “loving, affectionate, friendly, safe bear,'' is not going to have a happy ending.

gadfly

* After fifty years of being classified as “Top Secret”, those patrol reports have been “de-classified” . . . partly due, I think, to the publication of the book and TV programs under the title, “Blind Man’s Bluff”.

Gunner said...

"Pieper a sophisticated investor, now Chairman of Eclipse (Vern's Boss), with access to all available info, recently decided to pump $100M+ into Eclipse."

Source, please.

My read is that Pieper's ETIRC was simply the middle man; the "investment" came from Russian "sources"; the form of that investment remains unknown...it may well have been paper only....read that, "more smoke and mirrors".

If Pieper is such as savvy investor, it may we be only by VernWorld standards. Al Mann: now THERE'S an "investor". Roel Pieper hardly appears to be in the same class with Al Mann.
Gunner

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Sorry Baron, the holder of a TC is legally responsible for ICA's and related Safety of Flight issues for that TC, such as AD's, etc.

This is straight out of the FAR's, specfically 21.50(b) then 23 or 25, and Part 39.

There is no free lunch. You do not get the asset without the liabilities.

That is why we saw the General Aviation Revitilization Act, to limit liabilities for aging aircraft.

Black Tulip said...

Baron95,

Do you remember the end of the old joke?

“If we have the most advanced dog food company in the world, how come we going bankrupt,” the president asked. From the back corner of the conference room someone quietly replied, “Because the dogs won’t eat the stuff.”

One issue that was discussed at length on the ‘old’ blog was scaling and scalability. Just because it is smaller than any twin turbofan doesn’t mean the Eclipse 500 will cost much less to operate. Okay, the fuel burn will be less but that’s only one factor in jet ownership costs. It still has two engines, other rotables, avionics and all sorts of accessories.

Being smaller doesn’t mean the hourly costs will be any less. In fact, we are made to believe that keeping tires on the Eclipse is more expensive because of their size. Let us set aside for a moment the enormous challenges facing an Eclipse owner… assume they are all overcome. As the fleet grows, more and more owners will conclude, “Hey for these direct operating costs, I could have a ‘real’ jet – with much bigger cabin, payload, range, modern avionics… and wow, higher resale value.”

I’d be surprised in the residual value of Eclipse Aviation is anything like $100,000,000.00.

MetalGuy said...

Is it my imagination or has the critic site been removed from the Google search engine? I’m almost positive that last week it was #2 when a search for “Eclipse Aviation” was performed. Now it’s nowhere to be seen – could be local settings on my search client side however.

fred said...

baron ...

don't get too upset ... ;-)

what i was meaning = Russia is nowadays is f... fast moving place ...!

i work with them on a mostly daily basis , i do speak russian and live there more than 6 months in a year and after a few years of this : it is still quite frustrating for me to see how fast they are changing ...! ( it is one of the thing why i like them very much , each time i go out for a while , they always surprise me with something when i'm back !!)

do you really believe they need such a tragicomic fiasco as EAC/Etirc to get hold of what they Want ?

If so , can you explain me why Ulianovsk project is still close to ZERO progress ? it would be their best interest to make thing moving real fast , it they would like to try as you said ...

it would be simpler for them to BUY Cessna or Pratt itself (if they would like or need) , and they have largely the money for ... (last time i have seen an estimation of the "pocket-money" saved for restructuring the country , it was closing to half a Trillion $ ,one of their biggest problem now ,= they have largely too much money ...)
and about some possible restrictions , the matter could be addressed in either very simple way = stop exporting hydrocarbons products to a few countries or use dummies in Bahamas , Virgins Islands , Kiribati , Panama , you name it ! (after all , western countries do/did it , why not them ?)

(they don't care China and India the two alone want more that they can produce in oil and gaz ...!)

so , i agree , it is a rough speculation but to imagine they would undergo such a farce only to get hold of a part of the bird is , for me ..., quite funny !!

i wrote it before , the russian plant story is a smoke-screen , something far away , not many to know EXACTLY what's going on there , lots of prejudicial ideas about the real state of the country ...

even in economic terms , the story does not make it ...

If EAC would have been looking for cheap labor : China or Vietnam would have been a better choice ... not too many things to fear on currency rates and still plenty of real cheap workers ...

exactly the opposite of Russia , their problem N° 1 being demographics , which is one of the reason of the wages rocketing !!

no , definitely , i don't buy the "russian part" (from russians of Russia as opposite of peoples originating from Soviet Union living anywhere now ) of the story ... !

WhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

April Fools Day was last month WT.

Don't have my Pilot yet, but nothing surprises me at this point.

Deny

Delay

Obfuscate

Fabricate

Prevaricate

Shane Price said...

Metalguy,

Is it my imagination or has the critic site been removed from the Google search engine?

Fear not! Stan is still at No. 3 and 'we' are at No. 5.

Well, at least it is from here in my emerald green homeland.

That would be Ireland, by the way.

Dave,

I originally wrote a line which said that 'it is a 'high order' of probability that Vern will do something ELSE stupid by Tuesday' but felt the syntax was wrong. Too many words as well.

But thanks for noticing anyway....

I understand that most of 'you lot' have a holiday on Monday. Lucky sods. Since I decided not to post an 'end of week' headline, I will take this opportunity to wish everyone a restful and enjoyable (long) weekend.

Shane

Dave said...

So how close is Eclipse to go its goal it set late last year of three per day by the end of 2008?:
With a list price of $1.6 million, the VLJ industry's lowest, meeting that plan will require delivering 600 aircraft a year just to break even, meaning Eclipse's current production rate of about one aircraft per day must be doubled by year-end. Current plans call for a increasing yet again to three fully assembled aircraft per day by the end of 2008.
http://www.awgnews.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=busav&id=news/eclps09247.xml&headline=Eclipse%20Aviation%20Turns%20To%20Automotive%20Industry%20For%20Inspiration

Lets also not forget about this:
Eclipse also plans to pass many up-front costs to its suppliers. It aims to assemble an aircraft, deliver it and collect payment within 10 days. Then, 20 days after that, it will pay suppliers for the already-sold parts. "That has a huge impact on our capital requirements," says Raburn. "If you have minimal overhead to absorb, you can really drive a lot of cost out of the aircraft. If that's called a dot.com manager, then I plead guilty."
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=busav&id=news/aw042406p01.xml

Fortunately Vern can save on the price of filing for BK since he apparently had the papers all drawn up around the time of Highland Capital.

Lets not forget that this guy in his brilliance got rid of his Microsoft stake unlike other Microsofties. If he had kept it 9or only just a portion of it), he'd be one of the richest people in the US with a stake worth billions...richer than Al Mann.

Dave said...

Headline: IF YOU'RE TIRED OF ECLIPSE MAKING PROMISES, GOOD NEWS: NOW WE ONLY MAKE JETS.

Text: We admit it - we havent always been so good at delivering exactly when we promised. But there's one thing we are great at: delivering what we promised... etc


Is there a way you could scan it in so that we could all see it?

eclipso said...

Because Vern is such a POS, the workers will be there on Monday...that being said...

From a long time veteran, to all the veterans and folks who know one, Have a safe and happy Memorial Day and for a moment this weekend, take a little time to remember those who gave for us.

It's been an interesting week and now time for a cold, frosty beverage of your choice (Bud Lite here)and good ol' down home Texas
Barbeque.

Thanks to all the efforts from everyone keeping this alive.

WhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

Eclipse boobleplane up for auction!:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Albuquerque-Isotopes-Eclipse-Aviation-SGA-Bobblehead_W0QQitemZ280228358479QQihZ018QQcategoryZ73424QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Someone on this blog was looking for this...

baron95 said...

Fred said... it is still quite frustrating for me to see how fast they are changing ...!

Fair enough. Yes, Russia, and China, and India and Brazil (the BRICs) are changing very fast indeed. And it is quite welcome change and there is much cooperation that can be had. However, there are some key controlling aerospace technologies that only the West specifically North America and Western Europe have. Advanced turbofan engines just happens to be one of them.

Am I too worried that they'll reverse engineer some aspects of the PW600 and use it in other products some of which will be aimed at killing Americans? No.

Would I have liked us to make it a little bit harder for them (e.g. by requiring tracking of the engines and parts)? Yes.

It is that simple. By simply tracking the engines, you can learn a lot about who is touching having access to them. It is at least valuable intel.

P.S. I'm glad to hear that you are working with the Ruskies and speak Russian - looking forward for updates from you on Eclipsisk progress.

airtaximan said...

My read is that Pieper's ETIRC was simply the middle man; the "investment" came from Russian "sources"; the form of that investment remains unknown...it may well have been paper only....read that, "more smoke and mirrors".


Hmm...
So riddle me this:

why did they require MORE capital a month ago?

John said...

The March Regdex capital raise may have been a second tranche from ETRIC. Without access to the SEC paper filings, this is difficult to determine. I will work on securing the filings via the SEC public records office.

baron95 said...

CW said... the holder of a TC is legally responsible for ICA's and related Safety of Flight issues for that TC, such as AD's, etc.


CW, I am no expert in this area, but my understanding is that the TC holder is simply require to provide the text/drawings for any ICA/AD for which the TC holder has sought and received approval from the FAA. This is a paperwork distribution only. There is absolutely no liability to provide parts, labor or any typo of assistance to comply with ICAs or ADs, etc.

Unfortunately for the owners, they'd have to pay and pay dearly for any fixes to their airframe.

Now, if we get to 400+ jets in the field, I would not be too worried, because if the Eclipse TC buyers were to try to overcharge, some other company would come on the market to offer the upgrades at more competitive prices.

As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that sooner or later someone is going to offer a G1000 upgrade to the Eclise. Yes, I know it is hard, given that Eclipse tied so much (in terms of systems) to Avio. But with 400 planes in the field it may pay off to do it. Say $300K upgrade 50%take rate, that is $60M revenue with prob 50% margins. Not bad.

airtaximan said...

Gunner,

"I should think most feel like they've been attacked by an aging, frothing, arthritic, toothless Chihuahua. I'd mention Vern in that same sentence"

I think you owe a BIG apology... to the Chihuahuas!!!!

Dave said...

why did they require MORE capital a month ago?

Because of an arsonist.

baron95 said...

Re ETIRC. My understanding is that ETIRC (the entity) itself is now Eclipse's single largest shareholder. Pieper is now the Chairman of Eclipse and Vern's boss.

So it seems pretty clear that ETIRC (with people calling the shots) after due dilligence with a lot more info than anyone of us here, decided that a $100M+ investment with follow-on tranches was a good deal.

Could they be wrong and see their investment turn to dust? Of course. This is high risk investment, it is not buying US bonds.

However, the best measure of value of a company that we have is the last share sold in the company.

$100M+ bough less than 50% of Eclipse not long ago. So the "Market" has very recently valued Eclipse at $200M plus. Prob post money valuation of $400M would be my guess.

Until someone buys a piece of Eclipse for more or less, that is the "Market" value of Eclipse.

To argue that the value of Eclipse is ZERO or some insiginificant amount is to ignore the current market valuation.

baron95 said...

John said...
The March Regdex capital raise may have been a second tranche from ETRIC.


That was my interpretation all along. Etirc and Eclipse both said there would be follow0on release of funds/investments.

Either way, the fact that Eclipse is pumping out planes, means that Engines and other parts are being delivered and suppliers are being paid.

Since everyone here assumes that the ballance paid at delivery for each plane is nowhere near enough to cover all the parts and costs, that can only mean that Eclipse has access to working capital.

In addtion, I am sure that Etirc's investment has some serious perfromance clauses perhaps up to and including a complete Etirc takeover for ailure to meet them.

airtaximan said...

baron,

of course you are basically right, except...

we really don;t know what they paid... we only know what Vern says they paid for the share in EAC.

It could be like Dayjet's order...a phantom order for the most part, with little actual consideration.

Just a hunch...
;)

Also, yu could do a model of what other very samrt folks paid for their shares, and gonculate that all their money resulted in a 50% stake being worth "something" in the neighborhood of $100M. Or so Vern says. See he recent new money for some idea of how real the Pieper dollars were.

Probably a lot is going to pay for efforts for ETRICK in russia instead of EAC in the US... just a hunch...
;)

OK, Say the equity rasied so far was %750M. I really don't know... but its just a guess (press clippings, you know)... ANYONE?

Vern, care to clear us up on this? Thought so.

$750M results in $100M (best case) being worth 50% of EAC after 12 years.

OK. I agree... this works fine.

$375M in EAC investment dollars is now worth $100M in Pieper dollars.

(50% of the company ($750M equity) for $100M.

More time has passed and I'd say there's been accelleration of monetarty incineration in recent times at EAC... so perhaps... the compani is now worth a fragment of $200M.

Perhaps $50M? Maybe $100M.

Less the cost of negative good will to the position-holders, and liability associated with the brand... and you get pretty darn close to zippo.

Even by your gonculations.

Vern...care to opine?

Thought so.

Dave said...

However, the best measure of value of a company that we have is the last share sold in the company.

On this I have to disagree. I believe the blog knows more here collectively than most any place else. I saw that with SCO with how overvalued it was while the blogs and message boards had it right despite what supposedly smart/knowledgeable investors and private equity did. Look at Enron (and countless other companies) where the market (shareholders) got burned. Even more recently look at billionaire investor Joseph Lewis who took a huge beating on Bear Stearns after having recently acquired more shares just prior to the buyout announcement. Just because someone somewhere in the world using money from someplace is willing to put money in Eclipse, it doesn't mean that its a wise, properly-valued investment. I fully agree that Eclipse is worth something, but I wouldn't put too much into what ETIRC did. I wouldn't even say Eclipse is worth $100M because of that (it might be for the other reasons that you've outlined, but the investment itself isn't proof).

airtaximan said...

dave,

I provided the calculation above which lead to your intuitive conclusion.

Everyone else lost their shirts using the same lunatic investment criteria - and look what their investment is worth?

ETRICKS investment PROOVES the former investors were dead wrong. Tey all got taken.

What make ETRICK think their current valuation is any more reasonable that Bill Gates, Al Mann or Sam Williams?

Vern care to enlighten us?
We're all ready to hear you out, buddy... right here in the court of public opinion. Speak freely.
Thought so.

Anyhow. Gates investment was at a high valuation that is now worth a fragment of what he put in BECAUSE OF ETRICK.

And boys and girls, the recent tranche, if it is from ETRICK makes the company worth even less... they got half the company for X$ plus a promise.

OMG...

Maybe Pieper is right. The company is worth way less than $200M. After sucking up $2B? over 12 years.

WOW!

This is starting to make some sense after all.

Vern, care to stop playing solitaire and pipe in?

thought so.

BricklinNG said...

The start of this thread said that any named subpeona party might be excluded if he were to pass on representation by Norman. Perhaps Eclipse assumed that this would be a way to quantify the number of NDA offenders. If passing on Norman yields immunity from future harm, then those needing immunity would be unlikely to affirm Norman, n'est pas?

Now we have 24 out of 28 affirmations, with one party already known so if the logic above holds then the max number of NDA offenders is 3, but any or all could just be traveling or sick or not reading the blog so maybe the number is zero.

So success with the supeona may not ferret out many offenders to be punished. Imagine spending all that money on legal fees to find 3 offenders. That is 0.2% of the workforce. Looking for people taking screwdrivers Would be more productive.

gadfly said...

‘Seems to me, the horse is long gone out of the barn. And if the horse is “caught”, then what? If it were an “honest” business in the first place, no harm is done. If it weren’t an honest business, catchin’ the whole herd ain’t goin’ to do no good, no how! You see, the stage left town a long time back.

And as far as sellin’ off the remains of the business . . . there is an old sayin’ that you should never look a gift horse in the mouth. Well, I differs with that sort of thinkin’ . . . ya see, ya still hasta’ feed that old bag o’ bones . . . and alfalfa ain’t cheap these days.

Bottom line in plain English: Whatever harm is imagined is purely of someone’s imagination. The truth got out, because that’s the way with “truth” . . . no cage can hold it for long.

And the part about selling off the so-called “assets”, the liabilities for a “new owner” are so great, the scrap price of all hardware would not begin to cover the cost, when the “owners” of the little jets finally wake up to the “Dodo bird” that they have purchased . . . and begin seeking legal recourse against the “new owners”.

Some of us attempted to bring this into view, early in the game, to minimize the problems in the future. But every day . . . every delivery . . . increases the problems for “both sides”. Did I mention “for both sides”? The IOU list grows ever so fast.

gadfly

(Pardon me, while I find a place to “barf”.)

Shane Price said...

Bricklinng,

I suspect (and I could be wrong) that the original intent in suing 'us' was a gag attempt.

Poorly executed, badly advised, with awful timing (it raised the blog profile just before DayJet scaled back) and the sad thing is I'm sure some people around Vern told him all of this.

I know that Vern KNEW about DayJet, and I'm 5,000 + miles from ABQ. Think about that. How did I get to know, weeks before any press or other public announcement?

Because I was told. Not by one source, but several. Now, since I knew DayJet were about to pull the plug, Vern HAD to be aware.

But he went ahead and drew everyone's attention to this forum, with a stupid attack on First Amendment freedoms, a couple of weeks before his largest order went west.

He was trying, crudely, to shut us up. Not for the first time, he failed.

The difference is that now he gets a very rough ride in the press. One of the more respected voices in the industry has branded him a 'cash arsonist' and says the Eclipse shareholders (and by extension, customers) are handing him matches.

You could not make this stuff up.

Shane

Dave said...

Looking for people taking screwdrivers Would be more productive.

Well Vern screwed Eclipse because he's wanted to take a decade-long ego trip, however, nothing has been done about getting Vern off his trip. I'm just curious if the City of Albuquerque is flush with cash to not take a hit if Eclipse defaults on the $45 million industrial revenue bond...

Dave said...

And the part about selling off the so-called “assets”, the liabilities for a “new owner” are so great, the scrap price of all hardware would not begin to cover the cost, when the “owners” of the little jets finally wake up to the “Dodo bird” that they have purchased . . . and begin seeking legal recourse against the “new owners”.

That liability may well be discharged in BK unless the owners fight in court to maintain that liability. BK courts can wipe out liability for what happened pre-BK even if there isn't an active court case. The BK court could determine its in the creditor's best interest to discharge such liabilities so that the creditors can recover some percentage of what they put in while the Eclipse owners (low down on the totem pole of creditors) can at least have an option of upgrades, parts and servicing. Eclipse pre-BK would be a horrible acquisition due to all the stated liabilities, but post-BK that could be completely different depending on what liabilities are discharged by the court...which the BK court can wield tremendous power in this regard including banning civil liability before a case has even been filed as long as it concerns matters that happened pre-BK.

John said...

Serial Number Nine flies to Europe today.

S/N 9 is crossing the pond, after evidently spending a few weeks in Albany. Registered to ETRIC. Why are they taking delivery on an old plane.

Shane Price said...

71 on controller.com today.

3 days ago, when oil was cheap at $129 a barrel, there were 'only' 68 listed.

So, in the past 3 days, Eclipse might have completed the same number of FPJ's as have reached the open market.

How does this work? The only way it can is if the price people are paying the factory is less than what the market will offer.

Is Vern cracked in the head or what? The open market is offering more money than he's getting AND Eclipse have to pony up for a load of upgrades as well?

What part of simple supply and demand do you not fully understand Mr. Raburn?

Like I said earlier, you could not make this stuff up.

Shane

Dave said...

S/N 9 is crossing the pond, after evidently spending a few weeks in Albany. Registered to ETRIC. Why are they taking delivery on an old plane.

Maybe as a trade-in? As I recall ETIRC reported to already be having problems with an EA500, so maybe they turned that one in for the older model.

John said...

Gainesville Airport Authority reports Eclipse is months late paying its rent.

From the May 22, 2008 GACRAA agenda

Mr. Penksa reported that Eclipse Aviation had not paid the annual rent that was due at the end of March but has proposed paying the full amount plus interest in seven (7) weekly installments via electronic funds transfer. Mr. Penksa stated that the Airport’s Attorney drafted an amendment to the lease agreement with Eclipse Aviation; the amendment sets forth the payment terms for the seven weekly payments. The first payment is due on Friday, April 25.


Not explained whether the installment plan has actually started, since the Authority meeting was May 22, and payment are not reported.

Budget statement in the same agenda shows monthly rent at about $58,000 and yearly at $690,000.

Agenda says this about DayJet:

DayJet recently announced company wide layoffs and cited difficulty in raising capital to finance continued expansion. Local staffing levels will reflect the current demand for services. Approximately 30 – 35% of the local work force has been furloughed.


Dayjet rent is shown in the same budget at about $54,000/year.

Dave said...

Mr. Penksa reported that Eclipse Aviation had not paid the annual rent that was due at the end of March but has proposed paying the full amount plus interest in seven (7) weekly installments via electronic funds transfer.

OUCH! Things are really looking bad at Eclipse. Eclipse couldn't pay their rent on the terms they agreed to despite that being the very month Eclipse got a cash infusion per the SEC filing. Now Eclipse is having to negotiate with their creditors...not good for Eclipse as being creditworthy. Just wait until the BK filing hits and then things will get REALLY INTERESTING. The filings a company has to make in BK are even more informative and more frequent than what public companies have to file with the SEC, so we could potentially learn a heck of a lot about Eclipse once they have to start making monthly filings to the BK court.

airsafetyman said...

"Eclipse couldn't pay their rent [at the Gainesville, FL, facility] on the terms they agreed to..."

But they can fly lawyers from New Mexico to California? Shows where their values are, doesn't it?

airtaximan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

But they can fly lawyers from New Mexico to California? Shows where their values are, doesn't it?

Don't be too surprised if in Eclipse's BK filing those lawyers end up being listed as one of the creditors. Afterall, those lawyers aren't BK lawyers.

airtaximan said...

all I can say is Vern was 100% right in trying to shut down this blog.

Man, you guys are some of the most resourceful mother-F-ers I've ever seen.

Kudos.

Imagine uncovering the late rent payments to the MRO facilities only a little while after the default.

Vern was right in TRYING to shut us down - would have saved him some public knowledge, I'm sure... but as usual, execution was WAY OFF!

Imagine that.

He probably never should have poked this BEAR with a pointy stick.

A lot of crafty, smart, resourceful mother-f-ers here... I must say.

Scary stuff if you are on the BS end of this saga.

airtaximan said...

I expect a full article from Karen and perhaps AIN real soon on this. I think this is a big deal, given the $100Million or more infusion CLAIMED by Vern.

Hey, Vern, care to set the record straight?

We're all ears.

Dave said...

A lot of crafty, smart, resourceful mother-f-ers here... I must say.
Scary stuff if you are on the BS end of this saga.


And it can only get worse. If more people become involved (as they might once SCO is finally shutdown) and there's boots-on-the-ground to gather information beyond what's obtainable online, what's gone on so far could be mild by comparison compared to the future. Eclipse made themselves a cause celebre with a headline-loving CEO and fame cuts both ways. Eclipse's political influence could (and should) be scrutinized and articles about former Presidential candidates and other prominent New Mexico politicians could hit the MSM. It will be fun when its musical chair time to see who ends up without a chair and the more this board digs, the more shinning a light on corruption starts the music up. Irrespective of the results of Eclipse's blogger litigation, Eclipse will find out that public information is the most devasting of all...particularly given how much Eclipse has done with politicians and federal/state/local governments who by law have to disclose certain things.

Shane Price said...

People,

Language....

A bit of decorum in the debate, please. Remember, we have a much wider audience now, and anything we say will be used, almost without exception, against us.

Especially anything that has its roots in, let us say, 'Anglo Saxon'.

Shane

airtaximan said...

Shane,

you are right.

...but how can calling ourselves crafy and resourceful mother-F-ers be used against us?

...and can you believe Eclipse is already making deals with creditors they owe $60k per month???

This is pretty bad.

uglytruth said...

I have to wonder what suppliers are thinking when they read FPJ can't pay 60K?

airtaximan said...

how much do you think the legal fees are so far in the SLAPP suit?

Jim Howard said...

Eclipse Concept Jet sighting:

http://tinyurl.com/52ex2y

airtaximan said...

S/N: 957, N106TQ, 0 TT, IFR, Eclipse 500 slot for sale - No Premium! , 2009 Paint, 2009 Int , 6 Seats
ImagineAir
Phone: (678)226-2329
Fax: (678)226-4386

Imagineair selling their eclipse position(s)? I guess they decided the little props are just fine for their air taxi business.

Thisn we'll see Dayjet colors on the SR22 some day?

Any takers? Are we at the "Peak of Inflated Expectations" or are we in the "Trough of Disillusionment"?

In any case, another air taxi company has apparently decided the e500 is NOT the answer.

Imagine that.

Shane Price said...

Jim,

According to your source, the Con Jet is an 'all composite aircraft.'

Two possibilities.

1. He's wrong.

2. FSW joins a long line of Eclipse technology under the bus.

What do you think?

Shane

Dave said...

What do you think?

Remember the Con Jet wasn't made by Eclipse. It was made by another manufacturer under contract to Eclipse.

Shane Price said...

Dave,

Agreed. There was no way on God's Earth that ABQ (under Vern) could have produced that in 8 months.

However, Vern has claimed '60%' common parts between the FPJ and the Con Jet, including wings, landing gear, forward fuselage, cockpit and avionics.

Last time I looked, the FPJ fuselage was stir fried. It enables high rate production, after all....

Shane
PS I think Jim's source is wrong, btw.

airtaximan said...

http://www.tbm850
.com/multimedia/videos/
VLJComparison.php

amazing

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Thanks for the link to the TBM comparo's ATM - and to think, I though Jeff Dunham's Achmed the Dead Terrorist was funny.

'Hey, where's the VLJ going?'

Good stuff man - you are on resourceful Mother-F'er.

easybakeplane said...

Shane,

Looks like the cockpit shot pretty clearly shows a composite skin for the side of the fuselage, but with an aluminum skinned floorboard and probably E500 flight controls and instrument panel.

Look's like Vern has decided the only thing cheaper than a 'stir-fried' airplane is an 'easybakeplane' ;>)

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Funny thing about that shot of the cockpit - I count no less than 17 INOP placards, and you gotta love the handheld.

As for the use of compost in the structure of the e-CONjet, it could be that the prototype is just compost but the inevitable 'production' aircraft evetually to be 'delivered' will be stir fried metal.

17 INOP stickers, you have got to be kidding me - almost a year after first flight?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

I wonder if the ENEMA NDA prevents any recent satisfied customers to send us photos of the 'complete' aircraft cockpits to compare to the e-CONjet cockpit.

I'll bet there is a similar number of INOP placards but it would be nice to have confirmation.

Of course, we'll have OSH (maybe).

Speaking of OSH, if Eclipse is having trouble keeping up with their rent for the Mx facilities, how do you suppose they afford the stuff they 'support' at OSH like movies in the park, concerts and comedian Jeff Dunham?

Just asking...

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the forming of this opinion/satire. Any scenes appearing to place NDA's in jeopardy were simulated.

baron95 said...

Dave, AT, CW, I'm in basic agreement. Of course I didn't mean to imply that the "Market" is always right about present valuation of companies. In fact inflated/deflated valuations is necessary for a vibrant market. If everyone agreed all the time on what a company is worth there would be no trade and no liquidity.

Having said that, the last share sold of Eclipse to a qualified investors after due dilligence IS the current market valuation of Eclipse. Just like Enron was once over valued and Intel was once undervalued. Etirc's valuation of Eclipse may prove to be overvalued or undervalued in the future. But it is the current "Market" valuation.

AT said... What make ETRICK think their current valuation is any more reasonable that Bill Gates, Al Mann or Sam Williams?


The immediacy of the investment. The initial investors were investing on a paper plan, and idea, a concept to be realized many years in the future. Etirc was investing in an operating company with known faults and qualities delivering an actual products with known faults and qualities.

It is infinitelly easier to value Eclipse today with access to the data, than it was 10 years ago.

Dave said...

However, Vern has claimed '60%' common parts between the FPJ and the Con Jet, including wings, landing gear, forward fuselage, cockpit and avionics.

I'm speculating that is based on drawingboard plans rather than the actual aircraft. Alternatively, there are many different ways of counting "parts" to arrive at that ratio. I'm guessing that you could have two completely different aircraft aside from Avio NG and claim a high ratio if you counted board-level subcomponents etc in Avio NG and I think a claim could be made for various software programs to also be included as "parts". Then there's also Phostrex, etc. There are certain items that would have lots of parts in them that would be the same even if the manufacturing process is waay different. In the alternative, auto manufactures have had a thing about commonality of parts between brands/models and I think GM tried to make the "world car" (the name is probably wrong - I did my research on GM back in college) which emphasized similarity of parts internationally and between models. Vern has turned to the auto industry and so those guys might have brought that along with them and their claim might be a legit 60% instead of a PR 60%.

I believe the most important parts of an aircraft are actually low in number compared to the total number of parts that go into an aircraft. An aircraft isn't like a puzzle with an equal value to each part, so there is circumstantial evidence that could go either way as to how legit the 60% claim is from a cost/manufacturing standpoint.

baron95 said...

airtaximan said...
http://www.tbm850
.com/multimedia/videos/
VLJComparison.php

amazing


Come on AT!!! I expected more from you.

1 - TBM, as expected, picked the most favourable examples.

2 - They forgot to point out that the TBM850 costs twice as much as the Eclipse.

So, what is the point of the comparisson? That a plane that costs twices as much has more capabiities?

So how about we compare the TBM850 with a CJ2+ which costs twice as much as the TBM. What does that prove?

And that amazed you?

Fact is, TBM has been scrambling to improve their product (more power, G1000, more fuel, better A/C) just to have a change of surviving in the VLJ era.

Meanwhile, Eclipse is outdelivering TBM 2 to 1 even with all the problems.

baron95 said...

Info on EA500 training

http://blog.aopa.org/blog/?p=249

airtaximan said...

baron,

I I know, what I think is amazing, is the entire presentation. Its a comical joke, really. The dog barking, sound effects...

I cannot believe it, really.

It does point out the payload range issues, and of course, you are correct, yu would pay more for the TBM than the E500...but the fuel burn and residual value might just make up the difference.

Anyhow, I thought it was pretty funny to see the whole comparison in comic for... even the joke remarks are hysterical.

airtaximan said...

I hear Jeff Dnham is being replaced by Yakov Smirnoff and Borat at the eclipse pavillion this year.

Dave Ivedorne said...

"17 INOP stickers, you have got to be kidding me - almost a year after first flight?"

ColdWet-

I find nothing unusual about that many INOPs on a one-off aircraft trying to incorporate a major system out of a "production" aircraft. As an analogy, think about how many of the little stickers might need to be used if you unbolted a G1000 system out of a Bonanza & slapped it into an RV-10.

What's astonishing is that Eclipse has had custom INOP stickers made for aircraft they deliver (as seen on Mike Press' FPJ here).

Pull around to the second window,
IANAL

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Dave,

I would never be so sold on my own rhetoric as to try and install the non-functional avionics suite, from my incomplete preemie jet, into my new, designed and built by someone else CONjet.

Why would I try and take something that was designed (poorly) and which works (sort of), for one airplane (I think), and try and put that into another, different plane?

The only reason I can think of why someone would do that would be to try and create the impressions that something was perhaps more finished than it actually was - why would someone do that?

baron95 said...

AT said ... Anyhow, I thought it was pretty funny to see the whole comparison in comic for
'
I'm sorry I misinterpreted your comment. I think the contrast of payload/range is exactly what TBM should be doing, but they did one heck of a corny job. Only the french ;)

P.S. We need to find something else to disagree on - otherwise we can't keep the debate "hot" ;)

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Excellent opinion piece on the potential results of attempts to rape the 'captive revenue source' as regards the Thielert insolvency.

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_Thielert_HowToKillACompany_197956-1.html

Ultimate point is that the actions of the agency picking up th pieces is destroying what little chance Thielert had, and will only accelerate the development of competitive alternatives.

I still believe the Thielert collapse is a preview of what we will see in the Eclipse failure.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the forming of this opinion/satire. Any scenes appearing to place NDA's in jeopardy were simulated.

Shane Price said...

As you all have noticed by now I'm leaving this thread running longer than 'normal', to ensure those few remaining on the 'Honor Roll' have an opportunity to post the required notice.

However, the inbox is humming with interesting stuff, so expect the next headline post on Tuesday.

In the meantime, be aware that EASA certification has dropped further off the ABQ radar. It's now bottom of the priorities list, on a timescale which would indicate they don't expect it until 2009 at the earliest.

And the recent FAA audit in the factory went, to put it mildly, very poorly. Seems there is lots of work to be done to satisfy the inspectors....

Shane

chickasaw said...

Here is something else to chew on. A composit plane is just as hard if not harder to manufacture than a metal plane. There is a whole new set of problems not the least of which is finding an experienced work force in NM. It takes months to properly learn how to work with composits.

The capital costs would be tremendous: ovens, molds, etc. If the concept is going to be composit, EAC should contract the work out.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

If there is such a huge demand from EASA member nations, why wouldn't Eclipse be having an all-hands on deck EASA cert effort?

Just asking......

Dave said...

If there is such a huge demand from EASA member nations, why wouldn't Eclipse be having an all-hands on deck EASA cert effort?

It might not be a lack of effort at Eclipse, but rather due to the poor quality product they're trying to get certified. Besides Cessna will pick up the slack with their already EASA certified Mustang. I don't think dinosaurs versus techies is a valid comparison anymore - I think it should be the children (Vern) and the adults (most everyone else). The poor litigious crybaby who can't pay his bills.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

It was meant to be a rhetorical question Dave.

EASA was the big focus last year and has, historically, always been about 6 months away.

Now, Vern won't even commit to a predicted date, and EASA has come out with some pretty challenging special conditions that look like the current plane simply cannot meet.

I just enjoy pointing out the inconsistency in the rush to a Russian plant to fill the massive international demand.

fred said...

coldwet ...:

yes ! i know what you mean !

i , myself, like quite much to "lecture" others on such manner ...

because this is what the russian story is about ( in my views !)

"We , EAC , designed a poor qualities thing , it could have been good , but we have messed around so much about just everything that the result of burning 1 ++ Billion $ is something that won't meet any specification in a land where political short term interest has nothing to say in particular with something coming from abroad ...

so we decided to play "let's go east" because most potential customers have no clues about the said country , it is far , language differ , conditions of travel are harsh (visas , length of time to get there , etc...) ...

make us able to say any kind of fantasies the "hard-believers" would prefer to "look like" believing than to face a cruel reality

(yes , you're done ! very soon ONLY 3 options = 1° put on controller , wishing that someone would be stupid enough to buy at your price ... 2° take the plane as decoration for the garden ... 3° take the plane for what it is meant , and be the financial hostage of "needed services post BK" )

definitely a good way out for Vern :
"i tell you , soon , the Russian plant in Ulyanovsk (when Etirc ITSELF state they have no idea if it will be this town or not ...) will be so marvelous , E500 rushing out so fast and spotless at a rate of # insert your own dream here # that the Russian skies , then the European skies and finally US skies are going to be darkened ...! and i , Vern of the Vernastic will be the Master Of The World ..."

deciphering : we know for a long time , we cannot fulfill our promises so in a first move , we decided to go to E.U. until someone from Public Relation draw our attention on few facts :

it is easy for US citizens to go to E.U . , they do not need visas , form east-coast not very long hours of flight , more than 50% of total populace speak some english ...

ok ... let's go to Russia , then !! ;-))

Shadow said...

Wouldn't it be funny (and ironic) if Avidyne came out with a Eclipse 500 cockpit upgrade that brings full avionics functionality to the airplane before Eclipse does so on its own?

Dave said...

I was thinking about the legal case and with those who haven't responded in particular. I believe Eclipse still has to show why they should be deprived of their rights. I believe it is up to Eclipse to show that they did everything possible in an attempt to serve them. I don't think it would be equitable if all Eclipse did was run to court without doing any legwork and that resulted in people losing their privacy simply because they didn't logon to a website. This is particularly the case since Eclipse is basing their case on being those who signed NDAs - did Eclipse contact those who signed NDAs? I think Eclipse has more to answer for before any identities are provided to them even for those named who didn't post to this website. I believe part of the defense of them should be claimed that Eclipse created an improper formed subpoena because there is multiple Eclipse blogs and some of those named didn't even post on this blog. That might not be fair to Stan, but I do think some way should be made to address what Eclipse is doing without showing what their allegations are or showing what legwork they've done that would justify giving someone's ID away.

Shane Price said...

Dave,

Rest easy. Thanks to Gunner we have 'top table' legal people on the case.

First, Eclipse have to defeat 'our' motion to quash. Then, they have to succeed with their own subpoena. Finally, having won both of those, they have to get a load of detail from Google (because they stupidly asked for it) and sort through it all.

AND ONLY THEN....

Eclipse get to deal with 28 (or 29, sorry Gad) more legal actions, which will go on for YEARS.

As usual with this company, they take on much more work than they can possibly get through. This, as usual, ends up costing their unfortunate investors, suppliers and customers, money.

Not my money, not your money, not Verns' money.

Their hard earned cash....

Shane

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