Thursday, May 1, 2008

The Press are on the case...

It's timely to remind people that the action of Vern Raburn two weeks ago has raised awareness of the blog by a factor of at least 10. A number of sites, including his owners club, have picked up on us, and everyone will all note the new voices, as well as the higher volume of posts. Karen Di Piazza has been observing Eclipse for some years now, and was quick to contact the blog and others for further information. For the record, my only real quibble is her description of me as the 'owner', as I regard myself strictly as the custodian. Herewith her article in full, which was published by I think I should extend, on behalf of the bolg, a heartfelt thanks to Karen for her interest in our struggle.

Eclipse Aviation Critic Blogger Fights Eclipse Aviation Subpoena
By Karen Di Piazza

After Shane Price, owner of Eclipse Aviation Critic NG blog was notified by Google's legal department it had been subpoenaed by Eclipse Aviation for production of the blog's business records, to expose the identities of 29 people, he said he was shocked. Price, of Dublin, Ireland, who works in the publishing business isn't listed on the subpoena. New Mexico-based Eclipse, manufacturer of the Eclipse 500 very light jet, claims that bloggers have harmed its business. About six months ago the blog went dead; its founder decided to stop hosting the site. Before Price revived the site, posters had temporally joined forces with another site.
When asked why he decided to host the site, Price replied to CharterX Industry Headline News, "I found the site by accident." "Although I'm not in aviation, and I'm busy with my own business affairs, I smelled a rat--Vern Raburn [Eclipse CEO]. After I saw how he [Raburn] treated his employees, suppliers and customers, I realized that these bloggers needed their home back."

After Price posted the news about Eclipse's subpoena, 174 posts were immediately made. Rich Lucibella, who's in the publishing business, and also a frequent blogger [not targeted on Eclipse's list], responded to the news. He told CharterX Industry Headline News that he found Eclipse's actions "outrageous."

"What Eclipse is attempting to do is just wrong," Lucibella said. "They want to take advantage of people's rights; I can't stand by and let them do that."

A proponent of the First Amendment, Lucibella hired Florida-based attorney Norman Malinski, who will file a motion to prevent Google from releasing bloggers' private information.

Raburn was contacted several times for this article, but he refused to answer questions. Via email, he was asked to confirm or deny if he wrote a letter to all personnel about firing someone for breaking the company's non-disclosure agreement, and then using that person as an example of what would happen to the next person who did so. Raburn was also asked to provide an update on the status of when the jet's avionics would become fully functionally and when he expected ice certification on the plane. Eclipse's production schedule of its aircraft has suffered delay after delay; suppliers have been blamed for most of the company's production woes. Many aviation analysts and industry observers have expressed great concern about whether Eclipse can become a viable, profitable company. Florida-based DayJet Services LLC, Eclipse's largest commercial air taxi customer with 1,400 orders, operates 28 Eclipse 500s; the company hasn't added 500s to its carrier certificate since Jan. 15.

Privacy Rights

Malinski agreed that if any blogger is employed or was employed by Eclipse, they might have violated a NDA. "But it's a question of how Eclipse is going about it," he said. "The question is have they walked the last mile in trying to obtain such information, if any of its employees or former employees have breeched a NDA on the blog? Is this the easy way of going about it for Eclipse? Yes.

"Eclipse doesn't have the right to access other people's private information. For example, if three bloggers are or were employed by Eclipse but others aren't, then the rest of the people's privacy rights are violated under the First Amendment. Eclipse hasn't appeared to invoke the rule of reason."

"Ringtail," one of 29 blogger names that Eclipse listed on its subpoena, brings Malinski's point home--an unfounded fishing expedition.

"I was shocked to see my blog name on the list," David Johnson told CharterX Industry Headline News. "I've never had any relationship with Eclipse."

Johnson's wife, Becky, posted a letter to Raburn on the blog, believing he must be checking the site. In part it reads: "Everything we posted on this blog was based on our own opinion gleaned from reading and participating on this blog, and other aviation magazines and news articles. People have the right to say what they want. I believe you've initiated an opposition on that right."

Malinski said after Google receives a motion to seek that material isn't released that Eclipse has demanded, Google will wait to see what the judge's decision is.

"If we don't like the judge's decision, we'll appeal; Google will wait until the appeal process is over, assuming Google is allowed to wait," he said. "In May, the judge will have to make a decision. If this ends up in a court of appeals it could take a year from now. Or there's a possibility we can reach an agreement with Eclipse's counsel. I'm not talking about an agreement that involves money. I'm confident that there's not enough information on Eclipse's part to warrant the subpoena."

Eclipse counsel declined to comment.

Lucibella, who's footing Malinski's bill to represent bloggers' privacy rights, said in June 2006, he had ordered an Eclipse VLJ. But after Eclipse "wouldn't provide him with a serial number on production," he asked for his deposit back. He said he wasn't impressed with how Eclipse handled its business transaction. Shortly thereafter, he joined the blog.

The plane maker's claim that it needs personal information on all 29 bloggers, as inside company information has been leaked, has angered many people. Some people now view Eclipse as a bully, trying to blame 29 bloggers for the company's failures. Because of Eclipse's actions, many people have said they would not purchase its plane.

Eclipse's subpoena served on Google demands the first and last names of all 29 bloggers, their zip code, email address given when they registered their account and all records pertaining to user login information. Eclipse wants all remote IP addresses with corresponding dates and times logged by Google's system, on each occurrence of the account being accessed.


chickasaw said...

I'd like to extend my thanks also to Ms. Di Piazza. This whole thing has taken on a surreal quality. As someone alluded to before; Vern should use this blog as a primer in the turn around of his company.

flightguy said...

More Press:

What's that about Eclipse 700?

Note: No NDA was volated or employees subpoened in this release.

See how it easy it is to add 2+2 and come up with the answer 4.

Al Petrofsky said...

Some more court documents

I picked up some documents about this case from the Superior Court in Santa Clara County, and I've posted them at a new blog,, along with some comments.

The two documents that I don't think have been posted elsewhere on the web before are: (1) the commission from the New Mexico court and (2) a declaration from Angela Storey, Eclipse's California counsel.

The declaration explains that part of the reason for the long delay from when the case was opened, on March 18, until the California subpoena was issued, on April 14, was that Eclipse's New Mexico counsel (David Thuma) first served Google with a New Mexico subpoena and was apparently surprised to learn that that wasn't going to get him anywhere.

GetReal said...

Quote "..a heartfelt thanks to Karen for her interest in our struggle"

You guys are really pathetic. A “struggle”? Give me a break.

This blog was on death’s door step. Give Vern credit where credit is due. He managed to send you bloggers and a wild goose chase. By the time you figure out what is really going on behind the scenes the ECJ will be in production. Vern must be laughing his butt off at Gunner.

Mouse, mouse where are you. Working for the Ruskies at Adam or the BK down the corner?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Eclipse Earns Foreign Certification

Congratulations are in order for Vern and the team.

Have they achieved EASA certification to serve the 'massive interest' from outside the US, no, not really.

But they did get certification from two paragons of aviation safety, India's DGCA and Australia's CASA.

The Ozzie Cert is essentially a forced bilateral agreement (literally CASA can NOT refuse to offer an Australian Type Acceptance Certificate if there is a Type Certicate in another recognized country). Way to go Vern - why did that take so long?

As for the Indian certification, they haven't updated that part of their website for over a year but I believe it is similar.

Forced bilateral is NOT foreign certification - more bait and switch.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Welcome getreal.

Actually, having to defend a subpoena in another state is a bit of a struggle, thousands of dollars in legal fees, and First Amendemnt rights at stake.

Death's door, really.

It never ceases to amaze me how some folks want to dismiis the blog when it continues to rank high in the search engines, is referenced by Vern himself as well as the international trade media, garners hundreds of posts per week, and has irked Vern so much as to waste precious time, energy and dollars, all of which could be better spent fulfilling his many as yet unmet promises to his investors, customers and employees.

Maybe you can fill us in on where we have been wrong?

Maybe you can explain how the blog is all 'outright lies' yet Eclipse is in danger of being harmed if inside information gets out?

Pick up the mantle of Eclipse Apologist, we are waiting.

airtaximan said...

"Give Vern credit where credit is due. He managed to send you bloggers and a wild goose chase."

OK, why?

chickasaw said...


If the lawsuit is really a wild goose chase as you believe, then Vern is still wasting investor's money.

Why do you think that stepping on people's rights is a laughing matter?

Dave said...

Give Vern credit where credit is due. He managed to send you bloggers and a wild goose chase. By the time you figure out what is really going on behind the scenes the ECJ will be in production. Vern must be laughing his butt off at Gunner.

You do of course realize that filing fraudulent lawsuits can be very expensive to get out of? You do of course realize you're undermining the credibility of Vern's lawsuit? Saying that Vern knowingly filed the lawsuit against outsiders not privvy to inside information in complete contradiction to Eclipse's formal legal claims is a great way to also undermine whatever credibility Vern had left.

GetReal said...

“Actually, having to defend a subpoena in another state is a bit of a struggle thousands of dollars in legal fees, and First Amendemnt rights at stake.”

Actually, you got it wrong. The only thing at stake is two guys with huge egos, Vern and Gunner-aka Rich. What’s funny is you underestimate Vern. Do you really think he had no idea that the press would pick up the story? Get real!

Maybe it’s time for Stan to fess up and give us the real reason he stopped managing the original blog. Oh yeah, I’m too busy with all my tooling… Get real.

GetReal said...

I’m no expert on the US constitution but maybe you folks on the other side of the pond can clarify some things. Is there a part where you can post anonymously? Or does it guarantee free speech?

Is there a section where you can anonymously spread rumours and lies in order to hurt your competition?
No way EADS/Socata would never have an employee capable of such actions… Get Real

Dave said...

I’m no expert on the US constitution but maybe you folks on the other side of the pond can clarify some things. Is there a part where you can post anonymously? Or does it guarantee free speech?
Is there a section where you can anonymously spread rumours and lies in order to hurt your competition?

Thank you for volunteering to provide your full information about who you are including your address. If you don't, you will have answered your own questions.

chickasaw said...


Well there are some clues..perhaps English is your second language: "No way EADS/Socata would never have an employee capable of such actions". That is called a double negative. "Rumour" is only spelled like that in GB or Canada.

You were right about one thing though; you are no expert.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

In comparison to Eclipse's feat of 2 foreign certifications only 19 months after the stunt Provisional TC, Cessna's Mustang is fully certified in 46 foreign countries, and has been since last year.

Sure do wish those dinosaurs could learn from the fearless upstart in New Mexico - they really know how to make things happen out there.

gadfly said...

Did I 'just smell a touch of "South African" in a couple or three comments?


John said...

Have others noticed that N669CM, S/N 165 was registered to Mannco LLC in mid April. It had test flights in starting 4/14 and regular flights out of Camarillo, LA basin and Las Vegas starting 4/21.

A Delaware-registered Mannco LLC is identified in SEC filings as associated with Alfred Mann. The FAA filing gives an Oklahoma address, but the Oklahoma business entity database does not contain a Mannco LLC (or any similar name)

The Gulfstream IV jet also registered to Mannco LLC is blanked on FlightAware.

I suspect N669CM is Alfred Mann's new Eclipse. I also suspect his "deposit" for delivery was in an amount significantly more than $100,000.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

Vern has had the opportunity to post here anytime he likes. He could have easily provided a rebuttal to any "rumors and lies" that were posted. How simple and how effective that would have been! No waste of Eclipse's time and resources! Instead, Vern kept silent and now claims that Eclipse has been "damaged". Well, if any damage did occur, it is Vern's fault for not opening his mouth at the one time he should have.

The legal term for that is "mitigating damages." It's awfully hard for Eclipse to on one hand claim significant knowledge of what's posted on Eclipse blogs, but then on the other hand not be expected to mitigate the "rumors and lies."

Niner Zulu said...


Well said!

Another thing - I believe that if Vern had called up either Stan or Shane and said "Look, that post by blogger-x is a lie that could do a lot of damage to our company or partners, and I'd sure appreciate you asking them to remove it" that it would have been done in a heartbeat.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

In light of Al Mann finally receiving his WeeJet I propose we bloggers take up a collection and send him a tee-shirt.

Orange and black of course.

"$200 million of my own money and all I have to show for it is this lousy tee shirt and a partially functional incomplete preemie jet."

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

SATSAir posts 60% overall growth, 300%+ growth in DayJet's own Florida market.

SATSAir flew more than 16,000 flights in 2007, up 60% from 2006. They are now serving most of the Southeastern US.

In the past 8 months they have filed 15 Service Difficulty Reports (SDR's). DayJet has flown something like 2000 flights in the same timeframe, resulting in 83 SDR's, with 10% of the fleet sitting idle, one plane apparently serving as a spares donor.

Something does not appear to be adding up.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

airtaximan said...


nice observation... LIES all LIES!

the TRUTH hurts.

Anyhow, I've been sayng this for a long time, the single props will eat Dayjets lunch all day long in this market for "air taxi" service of around 250-400 miles...

Its a fraction of the cost, for the whole plane on your schedule.

Overall tme penalty for "slower" prop? negligible - especially compared to 2-5 hour windows of dayjet inconvenience...

The again, its not a tiny little jet - but the real question is - "Who cares?" I know a few people who care, Ed and Vern.

...then again, who cares?

Just my opinion of course. No insider scoop on this - no slander, liable - just one airtximan's opinion

gadfly said...

In the early days of our business, we would have welcomed the honest input of our customers, potential customers, . . . and yes, even our competition, and enemies. But, back in those times, “Al Gore” (barf!) had not yet invented the internet.

Today, we have the advantage of instant response, to anything and everything . . . a “real time” method of quality management. Even the outstanding hero of modern quality, “Williams Edwards Deming”, ‘bless his soul, would have applauded all of this . . . had he ‘just lived another few years . . . he’d be 114 years old, ‘just now.

And this little “new-bird-on-the-block”, scarcely the size of a “finch” in significance, (or as my “Grandpa” used to say, “As significant as a tit on a hoe handle” . . . it was years before I learned that the “tit” is a small bird, and a “tit” sitting on the handle of a hoe, in the garden “out back”, is not very important) wishes to intimidate the free-flow of response, to bring it to an end . . . an amazing use of effort and money (of others, I might add). In times past, “others” would have sold the eyeballs off their dead grandmother for such a privilege, to learn the “pros” and “cons” of the competition. And speaking of “cons” . . . whoops! . . . better leave that for another day!

‘Funny thing, here, . . . one of my grand-mothers donated her “remains” to the University of California, Berkeley . . . so, somewhere, she may be looking out of a “fruit jar”, filled with formaldehyde, at some “med” students going through “med school” . . . how’s that for “fame”? But leaving the “eyeballs of my dead grandmother” in a fruit jar, somewhere in a “lab” in Berkeley, let us move on!

With all these legal types watching over my shoulder, it’s difficult to be “candid”, yet fulfill a responsibility to the general aviation industry . . . so, forgive me as I tread ever so carefully, to carry on a most worthy tradition, while avoiding the “wrath”, and retribution, which I genuinely feel, breathing down my back . . . from a man who has vast resources at his disposal (we have the resources of a “church mouse” to respond), yet wishes to convince the public that “he” has produced something worthy of changing “Aviation Generale” . . . and all we have come to trust. Sorry . . . I don’t think so!


(‘Funny thing! Regardless of the “outcome”, those on the “hit list” remain “clean”! ‘Ain’t that interesting?! And, yes, my grandmother’s remains are, indeed, in some sort of a jar, in a “lab”, within the confines of the University of California at Berkeley. ‘She would be so pleased! Grandma . . . please don't stare . . . it give these new med students the "heeby-jeebies".)

GetReal said...


Could it be:

7 Flights to FLA in 2006
21 Flights to FLA in 2007

Just Keeping It Real

9Z My guess is some employees of Eclipse's competitors are hoping Gunner is succesful. Can you imagine the implications.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Thanks ATM.

Another observation given the recent crowing dfrom the rooftops about receiving forced bilateral agreements Certifications in India and Australia.

In May of 2006, Eclipse claimed it would receive FAA certification before the end of Q2 '06 (finally achieved September 2006). They claimed EASA certification would occur before the end of 2006, or about 6 months after the then projected FAA certification.

In July of 2007 Eclipse claimed EASA certification would occur in December of 2007, about six months from when the prediction was made.

Three months later in October of 2007 Eclipse predicted EASA certification in Q1 -08, about six months from when that prediction was made, and 9 months from the July '07 prediction.

One month later in November of 2007 Eclipse predicted EASA certification in Q2 -08, about six months from when that prediction was made, and a year from the July '07 prediction.

Four months later at the end of April 2008 Eclipse predicted EASA certification in 'Summer' '08, about two to six months from when that prediction was made, and as much as 15 months from the July '07 prediction.

Does anyone see a pattern here?

Essentially, EASA certification has, according to Eclipse, always been about '6-months away' since about 2 years ago.

Now, 19 months after achieving 'full' FAA TC, they finally get a foreign certification, and it is a forced rubber stamp bilateral type approval. They are essentially well more than a year late on EASA certification, with the same '6 months to go' that they were reporting after Sun N' Fun of 2006.

Way to go Vern - that is disruptive.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

GetReal said...


Diamond contractually agreed to certification by the end of March. C any patterns here too?

Keeping It Real

gadfly said...

Correction . . . correction:

Deming would be 107 years old, just now . . . sorry 'bout that!


(Regardless, he could have helped to make the little bird "fly".)

gadfly said...


'Last time I checked, the subject was "Eclipse". When "Eclipse" meets their promises, then we can go on to other subjects.

'Until then, let's keep it "real".


GetReal said...


Got love you guys. When its not convenient then hey dont change the subject. It's ok to compare Satsair with Eclipse but not Diamond. Give me a break you are pathetic.


Dave said...

I’m no expert on the US constitution but maybe you folks on the other side of the pond can clarify some things. Is there a part where you can post anonymously? Or does it guarantee free speech?
Is there a section where you can anonymously spread rumours and lies in order to hurt your competition?

I see you're continuing your hypocrisy by making further posts, but not revealing who you are including your address. The more you whine that others shouldn't have privacy as to their indentities while hiding your own identity merely chips away at your credibility with each subsequent post.

Dave said...

Got love you guys. When its not convenient then hey dont change the subject.

Great! So you'll be giving your name and address immediately since that was the issue you raised and you wouldn't want to be "pathetic" by attempting to "change the subject."

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Is this the Diamond Critic blog?

No AlexA (or is it Mirage00) it is not.

As for your attempted distraction, when Diamond is 2 or more YEARS, and hundreds of millions of dollars behind schedule, and has demonstrated a history of exageration, obfuscation and bait and switch and is treating vendors, investors and customers like Eclipse has in my opinion, you can rest assured I will definitely call them on it.

In the mean time, by my calendat Diamond is about 32 days late - how late is Eclipse (see above).

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Let us just get this ridiculous and completely flawed premise right out of the way, Eclipse has no competitors.

No other company on the planet is foisting partially functional incomplete preemie jets onto their long-suffering loyal customers - NOT ONE.

I mean what self-respecting company would ever want to be compared to the farce that is Eclipse?

I have the unique joy of knowing folks at every major and many minor aerospace companies around the world. OEM's, vendors, subcontractors, 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers.

They all laugh and ask 'what is up with Eclipse?'.

Vern is a laughing stock, and his company is recognized within industry as a joke, the pathetic kind like those awful Saturday Night Live skits that drag on far too long, not funny, not amusing, just painful.

Eclipse - There really is no comparison.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

gadfly said...

The problem in all this is, it would seem, that Eclipse wants a diversion . . . to move the issue “off target”. As long as the “critics”, for better or worse, keep the focus “on target”, the heat is on for Eclipse to keep their promises . . . and so far, that has not happened.

The promise was for an economical jet, carrying six people for well over a thousand miles (statute or nautical . . . take your pick), at “normal jet speeds”, at “jet altitudes”, with a certain degree of economy and safety, in the normal environment of “jet aircraft”, as well as a form of “air taxi” that would revolutionize general aviation.

The exact promises may be “refined” ad nauseum, but the original promises, as understood by the general public and “birdmen” everywhere, have not been met, nor even approached in the years since.

And so, whether or not the identity of the critics will be “found out”, the questions will continue to be asked, over and over, until the final answers are given.


(Critics everywhere, keep asking the right questions until you get good answers.)

GetReal said...


Thanks for setting me straight. It's ok for some to lie but not for others. At least we know where you morality stands.

Based on what you posted YOU should keep your fingers crossed that gunner is succesful.

Nice to rile you folks up. See you soon. My wee jet is waiting.

gadfly said...

And let's hope, against hope, that you and yours arrive safe and sound at the end of each and every flight of your "wee jet".


baron95 said...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
In comparison to Eclipse's feat of 2 foreign certifications only 19 months after the stunt Provisional TC, Cessna's Mustang is fully certified in 46 foreign countries

Thanks for researching and providing real numbers with your post. Clearly Cessna is in a league above Eclipse when it comes to the certification machinery. No questions about it.

However, part of the reason Eclipse hasn't gonne after/achiefe EASA and other certification (Japan, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, etc) is, of course, that the design/FAA-TC is not complete. It clearly would be a waste for Eclipse to seek EASA TC with the Sept 2006 design, then again after aero mods, then again after NG, then again afte FIKI, then again after the G400s.

What they need to do is get a full FAA TC for the "stable" configuration, then seek certs based on where the orders are. Having certs, just for the sake of having them is pointless and wasteful.

I hope you can understand that. It is different for each company. For example, Embraer will get Brazilian cert, but that won't be very valuable because most orders are from US operators and will require FAA cert, so they'll be heavily invested in that.

chickasaw said...

Maybe Diamond learned a lesson from Eclipse, and they would rather be late than introduce an incomplete product. Remember one of the top executives at Diamond was at Eclipse.

Dave said...

Nice to rile you folks up. See you soon.

It looks like you're the one who is riled up. You seem to be trying to set a record with how quick someone can destroy their credibility. You were able to do it in one thread in less than a dozen posts. Then again Eclipse sues the Faithful, so you don't want Vern to take you to the court because you've established that you have credibility.

Anonymous said...

Here's some friendly advice from teh interwebz ("the internet" for the newbies).

RE: getreal
DON'T FEED THE TROLL! There's no better way to stop a real discussion than to derail it!

RE: Subpoena
Proxies can guarantee anonymity if used correctly. I would suggest that someone (Gunner perhaps?) set up a proxy on their personal server. There are public proxies but you don't really know who you're dealing with. They can record IP addresses but a properly configured proxy will keep no records so there is nothing to subpoena. You will be able to speak freely when using a proxy. There is already legal precedent to protect this.

Anonymous said...

Now it's my turn for some trolling.

RE: getreal
Fail troll is FAIL.

"He managed to send you bloggers and a wild goose chase."

Not only does getreal fail at trolling, s/he also fails at grammar. (Note for getreal: It should be "on a wild goose chase".)

"This blog was on death’s door step. Give Vern credit where credit is due."

Yes!!! Vern definitely deserves credit! Truly, nothing else has come close in raising the profile of this blog than Vern's subpoena.




John said...

Dayjet Utilization Week 31
At about 85 hours, down from previous weeks. Monday and Tuesday were slow, Wednesday-Friday at the more typical recent service levels. Hops per craft for the high use jets, 141 and 156, were up, indicating Dayjet may be refining its dispatch protocol.

. . Craft …. Hours
1 . 141 …. 16:24
2 . 156 …. 13:04
3 . 148 …. 9:07
4 . 142 …. 8:44
5 . 162 …. 7:45
6 . 158 …. 6:18
7 . 161 …. 6:12
8 . 146 …. 5:54
9 . 163 …. 4:12
10 . 160 …. 3:05
11 . 145 …. 2:10
12 . 153 …. 1:42
. . Grand Total …. 84:37

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


Well said and spot on - the real issue is the incomplete nature of the Eclipse at present.

Unfortunately, Eclipse in general, and Vern specifically evade the issue and continue to pay lipservice to EASA certification when the issue is, as you correctly point out, that the baseline design is incomplete in both design and functionality.

Would that Vern could read your words and take heed.

Excellent point about the trolls, but they serve another purpose all too well here and that is to highlight the true blind faith of the Faithful Following of the Church of Flyantology.

Hail Vernu!

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

Gunner said...

I'd like to welcome getreal to the Blog. Actually, I'd like to welcome him back....again. Please go easy on the lad, though. Good comic relief is really so hard to find.

All research on the CA subpoena and the underlying NM suit is now complete to our satisfaction. Appropriate response will be filed in CA next week and simultaneously provided here. I can't say much more than that other than reiterate that Vern really is a World Class Tool.

BTW, in a vapid attempt to distract us from the genius of Vern's original distraction, getreal dropped the following little gem on us:
"Diamond contractually agreed to certification by the end of March."

"Contractually agreed?" That's a pretty strong charge, Oh Great Warrior of Truthful Distraction. I call BS on it. Source, please?

Short of response, I'll simply thank you for that bit of comic relief. You never disappoint.


airsafetyman said...

Oh, My goodness! "Getreal" is the digger drilling demented dentist, out much too long in the outback sun? Now quite a bit lighter in the old wallet? Blimey mate!

airtaximan said...

if "NG" is different than "critic" this is a pretty funny subpoena....


Gunner, you read?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


Our friend is probably referring to the 'planned' type certification date of 'during first quarter 2008' in paragraph 8 of the Deposit Instruction document.

Of course, you already have maybe one or more of those yourself.

Our friend fails, as usual, to recognize the difference between how the two companies communicate, what the two companies represent to be the situation, what the two companies say about others in industry.

I believe he ken eventually grow to think critically.

He did tell the truth, he said he would not return until he had his jet.

Perhaps he ken share his experience with her WeeJet.


ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

BTW, so looking forward to the motion to quash and the resultant press. Anyone who says there is no such thing as bad press is about to get an interesting edumacation, care of our high-caliber association.

airtaximan said...

CW... difference between NG and "critic"?

If there is, perhaps a looksee into the last few moths of posts can reveal the "whole truth"... because going back much further, is not required reading under the current legal action...


ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


The whole complaint is poorly written, what bits of it have been made available anyway.

They actually appear to subpoena an address, not Google, and that is just in the first bit, after of course the geniuses at the Eclipse legal team in ABQ figured out that a NM subpoena meant nothing under the TOS for Google.

I have a feelin' Vern, the Eclipse legal team, and maybe even the NM Courts themselves are going to look real stooooopid in the next week or so.

As Gunner says, a 'tool'.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

Shadow said...

Talking about contracts, wasn't Eclipse contractually obligated to have FIKI certification within 12 months of original FAA certification?

airtaximan said...

I just think its funny, that VErn made such a BIG deal out of NG-ing AVIO, and replacing the Avidyne AVIO with something "completely different - better - whatever"....

and now he subpoenas a "new better completely different" version of the blog that is only a few months old...

I ahev never even seen many of the names on hit list... and I cannot imagine anything really "revealing" or "dammaging" was posted to "ng".

By the time NG was formulated, he was in so much doo-doo, it would be hard for any court to even imagine this blog casued harm.

I was almost beginning to think the blog was keeping the die-hards interested... things were so bloody bad during the last few months.

Dave said...


Poor poor Vern claiming to be such a tech genius being an expert on computers, yet too afraid to post on any of the blogs to counter any of the "lies" that are causing "damage." You'd think with him being such a self-proclamed tech guru, that if he wouldn't post here himself, he'd be able find someone else with the ability to post on the blog to represent Eclipse's official position so as to "mitigate damages."

I thought since Vern claimed to have done so much work on OSes that he'd at least now how to use a computer, but perhaps he's really the Upper Class Twit Of The Year. Then again perhaps everyone is afraid to do that because they'd be fired if they represented Eclipse in a straightforward way.

Unless someone from Eclipse starts posting here officially representing Eclipse, only two conclusions can be drawn - silence equals consent and Eclipse agrees with what is said here (they've now made it very public they read the blog and are aware of its contents...can't claim ignorance anymore) or Vern's reputation in technology is undeserved and he's just ridden the coattails of others to get to wher he is now. Given all the major tech screwups at Eclipse either or both options are very real possibilities.

Gunner said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gunner said...

Yep, Diamond "planned" cert in '08; but they have never "contractually obligated" themselves to that date. Cert always slips; just not by SIX YEARS AND COUNTING! ;-)

Suggest you take your act over to the Owners Forum. From what I've seen, those guys (including formerly staunch supporters and some who have taken delivery) appear to be more insulted by the resources spent on this witch hunt than I am amused; more pissed about the increasingly lowered expectations of what they bought than a crack addict with a gun to his head.


Anonymous said...

"Cert always slips; just not by SIX YEARS AND COUNTING!"

Sorry to play Devil's Advocate but... Hawker Horizon

I lol'd... and then threw up in my mouth a little when I saw who was quoted in the first paragraph.

Niner Zulu said...

"Based on what you posted YOU should keep your fingers crossed that gunner is succesful."

And that would be what, and when, exactly?

uglytruth said...

gadfly said...
Deming would be 107 years old, just now . . . sorry 'bout that!


(Regardless, he could have helped to make the little bird "fly".)

Sorry to disagree..... but you can try to lead a company to continuous improvements but you can't make them implement them! Eclipse is going to disrupt air travel by reinventing manufacturing, physics, aerodynamics, management, employee morale, supply vendor chain, the US constitution.

I personally love to listen to “edgemucatd” people talk about kazen, upsizing, downsizing, rightsizing, fish boning, sigma, lean. Talk about hogwash! Deming did it years earlier on one simple page. It was effective, to the point, understandable to everyone and it worked. Eclipse don’t what that.

Now just try to not laugh when you read these.

Deming’s 14 points.
1. Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of product and service, with the aim to become competitive and stay in business, and to provide jobs.
2. Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. Western management must awaken to the challenge, must learn their responsibilities, and take on leadership for change.
3. Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis by building quality into the product in the first place.
4. End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag. Instead, minimize total cost. Move towards a single supplier for any one item, on a long-term relationship of loyalty and trust.
5. Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service, to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease cost.
6. Institute training on the job.
7. Institute leadership (see Point 12 and Ch. 8 of "Out of the Crisis"). The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul, as well as supervision of production workers.
8. Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company. (See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis")
9. Break down barriers between departments. People in research, design, sales, and production must work as a team, to foresee problems of production and in use that may be encountered with the product or service.
10. Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond the power of the work force.
11. a. Eliminate work standards (quotas) on the factory floor. Substitute leadership.
b. Eliminate management by objective. Eliminate management by numbers, numerical goals. Substitute leadership.
12. a. Remove barriers that rob the hourly worker of his right to pride of workmanship. The responsibility of supervisors must be changed from sheer numbers to quality.
b. Remove barriers that rob people in management and in engineering of their right to pride of workmanship. This means, inter alia, abolishment of the annual or merit rating and of management by objective (See CH. 3 of "Out of the Crisis").
13. Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement.
14. Put everybody in the company to work to accomplish the transformation. The transformation is everybody's work.
Seven Deadly Diseases
The Seven Deadly Diseases:
1. Lack of constancy of purpose.
2. Emphasis on short-term profits.
3. Evaluation by performance, merit rating, or annual review of performance.
4. Mobility of management.
5. Running a company on visible figures alone.
6. Excessive medical costs.
7. Excessive costs of warranty, fueled by lawyers who work for contingency fees.
A Lesser Category of Obstacles:
1. Neglecting long-range planning.
2. Relying on technology to solve problems.
3. Seeking examples to follow rather than developing solutions.
4. Excuses, such as "Our problems are different."

BricklinNG said...

Diamond Comparison

Did anyone notice that Diamond and Garmin announced at Sun 'N Fun that the Diamond DA40 would be the first aircraft delivered with synthetic vision? So one can TODAY get a Diamond aircraft with a great G1000 system, integrated autopilot for all functions and synthetic vision showing all terrain anywhere and letting you fly right to the runway (which you look at on the PFD) through the HITS boxes. This came as a complete surprise; no forewarning by Diamond or Garmin or any of us know-it-alls.

Diamond delivers without promising

Eclipse promises without delivering

There's my comparison.

airtaximan said...


Is eclipse the first company in the industry to falsely declare milestone achievements and pump up annual delivery estimates to oblivion, just to get the depositors (position-holders) money?

Is this not the point?

Just asking...

BricklinNG said...


It is A point; it is not THE point.

Really now, if you review all of the points, how can you pick just one?

airtaximan said...

of course there are other points.... but regarding other companies missed milestones, etc... I think we have a real GA first on our hands with EAC.

gadfly said...


The pleasure of reading “Deming”, was to find that we had already spent much of a lifetime with the same principles in place, . . . having long term results to confirm Deming’s methods.

But even today, very few companies, from large to small, have learned the lesson . . . the little bird factory being a prime example of the opposite business/manufacturing environment.


ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Great podcast from the IAGblog with Rob from Jetwhine about the Eclipse subpoena as it relates to the First Amendment and blogs, with specific focus on aerospace issues, Eclipse specifically.

About 19 minutes but well worth the listen.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Within the podcast Rob from Jetwhine says at one point:

"If they want people to stop saying bad things about them they need to be more honest and forthright."

He also says:

"I think Eclipse is going to look back on this in a few months and realize this was probably a dumb move on their part."

Amen brother Rob.

I really like Jetwhine BTW, the IAGblog is a solid aerospace source as well.

Good on ya' boys.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

baron95 said...

BricklinNG said...
Did anyone notice that Diamond and Garmin announced at Sun 'N Fun that the Diamond DA40 would be the first aircraft delivered with synthetic vision?


This came as a complete surprise; no forewarning by Diamond or Garmin or any of us know-it-alls.

Diamond (IIRC) was the first to offer G1000 cockpit and has a close working relationship with Garmin. While Cirrus, Columbia, Piper were all on Avidyne's camp, Diamond bucked the trend and picked the winner by choosing to work with Garmin on the G1000 certification. Mooney, Cessna, then Columbia (as an option) quickly followed, the rest is history, with G-1000 becoming the de-facto Glass cockpit standard for new light GA.

Also, in typical fassion, Garmin only annouces new products when they are fully backed and have an OEM customer - ditto for Synthetic Vision. Lets just hope that Garmin is doing it right (at least as good as Chelton), and that HITS is actually optional (i.e. possibly disabled by the pilot).

When the full G-1000, CFC-700, Synthetic Vision, TWAS-B, is implemented, particularly with 3pannel, dual ADHRS (like in the C510/TBM), Tlight GA will be nearly on-par with big iron, and actually ahead of most airliners flying, when it comes to avionics frieendliness to the pilot.

I think it will be a real demark in aviation. Pre/Post Glass/IFC/SyntehticVision/Sat Weather.

Unfortunately, The EA500 seems destined (or should I say condemened) to stay on the wrong side of the divide, while DA-40s, C172s, etc will be ahead of it.

Can you immagine that? A 50 year old C172/Bonanza having significantly better avionics capability than a jet certified in the latter years of the first decade of the 21st century???!!!???

I guess that qualifies as a "break from the dinasours" and "disruptive thinking".

forest said...

Dave provided the site below in a previous post. All of the following information is from open/public records.

New Mexico State Investment Council (provided financing to Eclipse, so releases public reports related to Eclipse):
I wonder if the members of the SIC have received a copy of the CharterX article yet? Or have they only read what is being put out by EAC?

The members of the SIC (as of 6/30/07) are:
Gov. Bill Richardson
State Investment Officer Gary B. Bland
State Treasurer James Lewis
State Land Commissioner Patrick Lyons
DFA Secretary Katherine Miller
Public Member David Harris
Public Member Andrew Davis
Public Member Jim Rutt
Public Member Paul Blanchard.

Telephone: 505-424-2500, Fax: 505-424-2510
A Mr. Brian Birk, adviser with Sun Mountain Capital, handles the New Mexico Private Equity Program.

In October, 2007 [(SIC minutes are open record) Mr. Harris asked Mr. Birk to give an update on EAC. Mr. Birk reported that based on press reports ... Mr. Birk said ... in talking with EAC Mr. Birk learned ...

I didn’t fill in what Mr. Birk reported because it is very similar to EAC press releases.

A couple of interesting statements from the minutes are:

"Responding to questioning from Mr. Lewis, Mr. Birk said Eclipse plans to stay in its existing facility for the next two and a half years, giving them enough capacity to produce about 600-700 aircraft per year, and then they will need to find another facility to accommodate a larger production line. He commented that he thought this a very realistic approach."

"Mr. Lewis asked if Eclipse has any pending litigation, and Mr. Birk responded that they do not."
You ask what is the point of the above?

1) The Investment Council manages investments for twenty state client agencies from around the state. Several of these client agencies have more than one account with the SIC.

The SIC has a fiduciary duty to the agencies whose money it invests as well as the taxpayers of NM. Definition of fiduciary:

"Fiduciary is someone who has undertaken to act for and on behalf of another in a particular matter in circumstances which give rise to a relationship of trust and confidence."

2) It appears that the SIC receives reports from Mr. Birk who regurgitates press releases and only information directly from EAC. It is also obvious that Mr. Birk has not consulted an independent aviation specialist in regard to engineering, production, etc. to provide a more balanced view.

Is the SIC upholding its fiduciary duty to its clients and the taxpayers? [It appears the blog is more accurate than what the SIC is hearing from Mr. Birk.] Would the SIC serve their fiduciary duties more effectively by reading the blog as well as receiving Mr. Birks reports.

Is the SIC in a position to discuss concerns with the EAC BOD? Would the SIC serve its fiduciary duties more effectively by working with the BOD to transition to a more credible, balanced CEO?

Are the SIC and Mr. Birk purposely looking the other way, keeping the blinders on? Might undue political forces in NM account for this? After all, NM politics are run on a patronage system. And Gov. Richardson is on the SIC.

Will their plausible deniability hold up... if/when all goes south?

Is everyone in CYA mode at this time?

Does the SIC condone EAC’s treatment of their employees and threats to their families?

Does the SIC condone EAC’s assault on first amendment rights of bloggers (most who’ve never had any kind of relationship with EAC)?

FYI, the SIC open records have not been so open lately. They have not posted any monthly meeting minutes since October 2007 on their website. It is possible that within the more current meetings the appropriate questions are being asked and actions being taken. If this is occurring they may not want to post the minutes of the meetings.

Disclaimer: All of the above is open records. Any questions, thoughts, ramblings are NDA-free.

Dave said...


Following up on Forest's post:
A Mr. Brian Birk, adviser with Sun Mountain Capital, handles the New Mexico Private Equity Program.

It turns out that Eclipse Aviation is a portfolio company of Sun Mountain:
There seems to be a major conflict of interest there.

The comments Burk made in October of last year seem very troubling given what has happened since then with litigation, production, funding, etc. Neither the self-interested fund manager nor the politicians have bothered to actually perform their fiduciary duties to the NM taxpayers.

Now that Vern has decided to shine a spotlight, hopefully the media will turn that spotlight to investigate Eclipse as well as those who have enabled Eclipse.

Dave said...

Further evidence of self-dealing in New Mexico. First here's a link to the defition of self-dealing along with a detailed explanation of conflicts of interest:
"The general rule stands upon our great moral obligation to refrain from placing ourselves in relations which ordinarily excite a conflict between self-interest and integrity. . . . It therefore prohibits a party from purchasing on his own account that which his duty or trust requires him to sell on account of another, and from purchasing on account of another that which he sells on his own account. In effect, he is not allowed to unite the two opposite characters of buyer and seller, because his interests, when he is the seller or buyer on his own account, are directly conflicting with those of the person on whose account he buys or sells."

Now it turns out that New Mexico's SIC manager appears to have done a string of self-dealing deals including Eclipse. Another that I've found is Advent Solar, which is another Sun Mountain portfolio company that the state of New Mexico funded based on the advice of Sun Mountain:

It turns out that NM has also put money into Exagen and Lumidigm, which are also on the Sun Mountain list of portfolio companies. This isn't looking good...How could all the fiduciaries at the SIC not know that self-dealing was going on - or were they turning a blind eye?...

Gunner said...

Thanks for the link to the interview from IAGblog. This is truly one damning indictment of Eclipse and Vern; and one helluva endorsement of the Blog.

Both commentators note the fact we've called Eclipse's bluff and mounted a legal response; and how this wedges the Vernster in a corner that his investors and PR advisers probably want him out of yesterday.

You'd think anyone capable of BLOWING $1.5 BILLION on a non-finished product, should have enough money to silence a few anonymous Bloggers without it blowing up in his face? But this isn't anyone, after all. This is the same man that has actually celebrated the longest succession of "missed it by that much" failures in modern history.

Oopsie....another tactical error, Vern.

easybakeplane said...

Just looking at a 'PUBLIC' website tonight showing E500's for sale, and here's some of the information presented by prospective sellers:

Year: 2009 TTAF: - S/N: 500-0878
Reg: - Price: Make Offer
Location: USA

Year: 2008 TTAF: S/N: 487
Reg: N504EA Price: $1,495,000
Location: USA (3rd qtr 2008 del)

Year: 2008 TTAF: 0 S/N: 522
Reg: Price: Make Offer
Location: NM, USA
(Feb 2008 delivery!)

Year: 2009 TTAF: S/N: 832
Reg: TBD Price: Make Offer
Location: USA
(3rd qtr 2009 delivery)

Can someone remind us of where EAC is in terms of delivered s/n and comment on possible inaccuracies in the seller's delivery dates? Is anyone else out there warning prospective buyers about the 'truth' of EAC production numbers?

eclipso said...

A prelude to Dallas?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


Great question. According to Flightcentre's delivery sheet which is itself based on publicly available FAA registration and delivery data shows that as of the end of April Eclipse had pushed 69 incomplete IOU laden preemie jets out.

Everything that follows is based on publicly available info and we should recognize that the FAA database lags as much as a week for most OEM's, for Eclipse however it has not shown a new CofA since some time in December, almost 5 months ago.

To recap, Eclipse has made 69 'deliveries' in 124 days or almost 18 weeks. This is roughly 3.8 deliveries per week, or about 16.5 'deliveries' per month. Another way to look at this is Eclipse is making .5 'deliveries' per day, compared to Bill Bonder's January 4 letter to vendors committing 1 per day in April and 2 per day by the end of 2008.

At this current rate, Customers with delivery positions beyond #300 will not see their aircraft 'delivered' this year.

Using the '6 month' progress payment concept, airplanes beyond #284 should not have been foreced to make a progress payment, but we have been given to understand Eclipse called for those deposits, and more, about a year ago.

Of course there have now been the two 'special one time offers' where other customers may have elected to make an early deposit.

If #522 were the final 'delivery' of 2008, Eclipse would have to complete 354 aircraft in the next 241 days. That is about 1.5 aircraft per day, each and every day, for the rest of the year. In other words, this company that has demonstrated about .5 'deliveries' per day year-to-date needs to more than triple it's production rate, TODAY in order to meet that expected 'delivery'.

This for a company that cannot exceed 16 'deliveries' per month with regularity, and it can only achieve that by pushing a partially functional incomplete preemie jet out the door that then needs to be flown to a service center at an undefined 'later date' and significantly modified in order to provide the promised functionality.

There has still been no public report on the ETT and Avio NfG mod airplane, S/N 028, registration N963JG. It has not been seen departing the Service Center in GNV since flying in 194 days ago (according to Flightaware). Eclipse's promise was 8th of February in the letter from John R. at Eclipse.

It may have flown out VFR, but it is not currently blocked on Flightaware so it begs the question, is N693JG still in GNV. Any planespotters down that way that can give us a report?

You would think that given Eclipse's past history of issuing press releases whenever Vern went potty by himself, that the successful completion of the first ETT mods and the swapping of Avio for Avio NfG would have made some news - personally I was expecting a Verngasm headline from Darth Campbell at the Eclipse Southern Media Relations Office formerly known as Aero News Network.

Maybe one of our owner's in the know can share this with us, unless of course Eclipse has NDA's that cover the development of one's own opinion based on a conversation with another owner about the condition of one of his posessions that he paid a million dollars for.

If S/N 028 is still in GNV, the Avio NfG Mod is 3 months behind schedule.

One wonders when the long suffering customers, employees and vendors will call BS on all these shenanigans and revolt?

In the back of his head I wonder if Vern realizes that people sometimes fight back against the bully, and his time is coming?

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

Dave said...

The lack of full FAA vetting might explain why DayJet has had all sorts of service problems with Eclipse 500s. No wonder Ed has publicly talked about using other aircraft besides the Eclipse. Not looking good for Eclipse's order book...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Cold Fish Comes Clean – Identifies Self

4 May, 2008

By Darth Campbell

SECRET UNDERGROUND LAIR, Parts Unknown (ANN) - After weeks of speculation and no less than two subpoena’s, infamous Eclipse Critic Blogger and junior part-time moving company packer the mysterious ColdWetMackarelofReality finally sat down with this intrepid reporter and discussed his true identity.

Darth Campbell – So, you are the famous ColdWetMackarelofReality?

ColdWetMackarelofReality – Infamous please, titles are very important to me.

DC – So why the change of heart about identifying yourself?

CWMoR – Well I realized there wasn’t much point in anonymity if everyone who knows who you are don’t really know who you are, you know?

DC – Ummmmm….

CWMoR – You see, I never intended to become a famous blogger.

DC – Don’t you mean infamous?

CWMoR – Yeah, infamous. Anyway, what fun is there pointing out failure after failure, missed schedule after missed schedule, unmet promise after unmet promise, and doing it anonymously. I mean, how much cooler would it have been for the Founder Fathers of America to have used their real names rather than ‘Publius’, ‘Cato’, or ‘Agrippa’? What is the worse that could have happened?

DC – King George would have known who they were, dispatched the Redcoats and locked them up or had them killed?

CWMoR – Exactly. So I decided I may as well come clean and what better way to do it than to provide you with exclusive first rights at all stories about me Jim. That way I ensure that you will always treat me like I walk on water, or, being a fish, under the water.

DC – Are you suggesting that by giving me exclusives that you think you can ensure good treatment by me?

CWMoR – Seems to work for Vern.

CWMoR - Anyway, the details of my life are quite inconsequential... very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. At the age of twelve I received my first scribe. At the age of fourteen a Zoroastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.

DC – Okay……so who are you really?

CWMoR – I am Spartacus.

DC – What?

CWMoR – I am, I am, I am Superman, and I know what’s happening.

DC – Who?

CWMoR – I am the Walrus, koo koo kachoo.

DC – Huh?

CWMoR – I am Ironman.

DC – You are just kidding me right?

CWMoR – I am woman hear me roar.

DC – Now you are just mocking me.

CWMoR – OK, I am sorry, you really want to know who I am?

DC – Yes, my master, I mean Vern, I mean the readers want to know, who is the ColdWetMackarelofReality?

CWMoR – You really want to know?

DC – For God’s sake yes, please tell us, I mean me, tell me.

CWMoR – I am John Gault, and I challenge Atlas, the time has come to lay down your burden and let the looters and moochers try and make it without you. Rescind your sanction of the victim and join my in Galt’s Gulch. You know who you are, and you know who I am.

eclipso said...

LMFAO.....It would be interesting to know just how many people just googled "John Gault" (including myself)....LOL...That was great!!!!

a37pilot said...


I can't believe it, I read an 1100 page novel when I could have just checked this blog? All that wondering "Who is John Gault" Thanks for clearing that up.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Turboprop_pilot said...

Business Week this week: "The Dark side of Web Anonymity"

It is available on the web at the BW site if the URL above gets cropped. An interesting article that describes pitfalls of anonymous postings- appropriate with our disaggrement with Vern.


Shane Price said...

I'm in a slightly impish humour this evening, after an excellent meal in the same Chinese where I was when I got that 'famous' Google email.

So when I opened the fortune cookie and it said:-

"You are the source of wisdom and strength to many people"

I just had to share a few thoughts....

As with all aircraft, the E500 attracts nicknames. Two that have come to my attention are

1. 'Fisher Price Jet'


2. 'Barbie Doll Jet'

I have therefore decided to carry out a straw poll for the 'offical' nickname. Entries to the usual address,, with '1' or '2' in the subject. The winner (announced on Friday next) will become the de facto term to be used in all offical blog correspondence.

Some of our friends in the wider aviation world have been active on our behalf, and it's impossible to list everyone. Thanks to one and all.

But the one person who has done more than anyone else to raise the profile of the blog recently is a bit harder to offer praise to.

OK, I'm a big boy, so I'll have to say it.

Thanks Vern, I never thought you would do so much for us.


airtaximan said...

I vote for "revolutionary air taxi jet"

airshogun said...

Don’t mean to spoil the idea but I get a little bit off-centered ball feeling from the Eclipse jet nickname selection as proposed 1 and 2. I speak for myself but the connection isn’t so striking and appealing.

Would it be better to let other bloggers to submit their favorite Eclipse nickname and let the bloggers vote and decide the final one?


ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

I am partial to 'preemie jet' myself.

chickasaw said...


I thought the 500 had a nickname already; doesn't VLJ stand for Vern's Little Joke.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Chickasaw, now that is one funny double entendre right there.

VLJ - ha ha ha ha ha ha.

airtaximan said...


you on the list, yet?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Paul Bertorelli at the AvWeb Insider's Blog posted a fantastic article about the pressing issues at Thielert.

If you replace Thielert with Eclipse and Centurion with 'Preemie Jet', I believe you have a peek about 6 months into the future for everyone's favorite little jet non-OEM from Albuquerque.

The questions being asked, warranty exposure, product support issues, parts, and the need for crisis management communications are spot on comments, not just for Thielert and Diamond, but for Eclipse.

Great article Paul, very well done.

airtaximan said...


ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

I am curious if we have any NATCA members who can give us an update on the complaint about the Eclipse TC and the request for legal protection for the FAA staff in the event of an accident with the Eclipse?

In order to look at the NATCA grievance database you have to be an NATCA member (they filed the grievance for the FAA staff). Thanks in advance.

Also looking for any planespotters in the GNV area who can confirm whether or not N693JG is still at the Eclipse Service Center.

airtaximan said...


in case I forget... remind me never to piss you off....

baron95 said...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Paul Bertorelli at the AvWeb Insider's Blog posted a fantastic article about the pressing issues at Thielert.

CW, thanks for the link - a good read indeed. There is a tangential, but not insignificant, link between diesel pistons and VLJs (particularly the under 6,000 lbs, SEJ/TEJ, that are really "very ligh"). Wide use of aerodiesel pistonsis important, particularly in the USA, to extend Jet-A availability into more (and smaller) GA airports.

It is also very important internationally, where AVGAS (end even auto-gas) is extremelly expensive and getting more so.

The best way to insure the long term viability of the owner-flown GA fleet is to move it into a Jet-A economic cycle from trainer to VLJ as soon as practicle (next 20 years or so).

Lets hope that Diamond's Autro engine does better than (SMA and Thielert).

I'd love to hang a pair of 350HP, FADEC-controlled, autofeather, single-lever control, turbonormalized on a G-600 updated P-Baron. That will give some competition even to the EA500. ;)

If fuel prices keep increasing, we may see piston diesels back in vogue for high-performance planes.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


Like I said before, unless you plan to try and drag me into a failure totally of your own making and destroy the industry I love in the process, you have nothing to worry about.

Simple fact of the matter is that Vern and Eclipse have been making a mockery of the processes, the traditions, the mechanisms and the ways of doing business that have kept this industry and the travelling public remarkably safe for the past 6 decades.

They have taken 10 years and more than a billion dollars to create a premature abomination of an airplane that had so much promise, and they have devastated a team that had as much potential as any in recent memory.

The 172 now has more, and more advanced, avionics functionality than the Eclipse - the F'ing Skyhawk.

NATCA filed a grievance on behalf of the FAA staff involved in the certification of the Eclipse claiming violations of FAR Part 21 and Part 23 and seeking legal immunity for the FAA staff on the program, engineers and pilots, who claim their safety concerns were overruled.

That is more than labor vs management barbs, that is unbelievably pointed and damning.

There is the appearance of 'self-dealing' with the NM taxpayers dollars by Sun Mountain Capital and Eclipse.

There are the unprecedented number of Service Diffuclty Reports at the FAA database for some fairly significant failures and malfunctions including trim runaways, binding flight controls, loss of air data, landing gear malfunctions, autopilot failures, display dropouts, and more.

The pattern is clear and obvious, it does not take a rocket scientist to put it all together.

This appears to be a fundamentally flawed company that is producing at best an incomplete airplane, at worst a dangerous product.

The type and number of failures and malfunctions reported indicate to me that there is a significant quality issue at Eclipse. The end user is not supposed to be the quality inspector for any product. For toasters or software it is an inconvenience. For airplanes it is nothing less than abject incompetence or the result of unprecedented poor leadership.

Either way it is unforgiveable.

Yes, it pisses me off - it should never have happened and the responsibility lies squarely at the feet of one man.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


I'd like to see a 350hp turbo-diesel on the Malibu/Meridian - it would finally have the engine it deserves, and the range would be incredible.

I have always held out hope against hope that Thielert and SMA would make it in the certified world, and there is Deltahawk in the Experimental side.

I see it as flawed marketing, uncompetitive pricing, and lack of attention to the details in product support.

Just goes to show you that as with entire airplanes, new technology and good ideas are not enough. If the plan is not well developed, if there is no clear vision communicated from the top, if there is inadequate (or nonexistant) focus on the customer (pilots and OEM's) a good idea in and of itself will fail.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Another interesting read, or lack thereof.

Mike Press has not added a new newsletter entry since January where he predicted Eclipse would have delivered through aircraft 200 by now - a prediction he said was not based on Eclipse.

SPJets also shows 20 positions through 2010, many with very small if not non-existant premiums.

Among the interesting points made in his last entry, 4 months ago now, was the then 'imminent' FIKI certification, and the expected improvement in Avio NfG functionality, both expected before the end of Q2 '08.

Well, we'll always have Paris.

ASPCNDA Disclaimer - No NDA's were harmed in the development of this opinion/satire. All opinions/satires appearing to place NDA's in danger were simulated.

airtaximan said...

ya know... on the Mike Press issue.. I hate to be a pr*&k, but...

I thought this guy was terrific and had such balls. He was described here as beynd reproach by many faithful, and others.

I guess he's a decorated hero fighter pilot... OK, here's my beef.

What happend, Mike? When the going got tough, you bailed?

You painted a pretty rosey picture, couched as "realistic" for quite some time. Yu cozied up to eclipse, and finally, when you boght a share or two, and they provide you some real information under NDA... you posted confirmation of some distasteful facts you "suspected" before the intel was provided/confirmed by Vern..

You tols us they were running out of cash, and I believe were on the brink... last summer.

The eclipse went to the market, and tried to TAKE away your business by going after the aftermarket in a big way... you posted one or two more reports... then...poof?

Did Vern get to you?
How come you still have 20 listings? Did VErn fail at obliterating your aftermarket business, as well?

And finally, where the report. CW points to you being (conveniently?) WAY off the mark (pun intended) with your last report. Rosey, rosey...
Have you give up, or, are you on the hit list?

If your not, perhaps YOU should be? You were supposed to have the "inside scoop"...

nothing personal, just want to know why you stopped writing. I personally loved your opinion on things.

gadfly said...

Gentlemen, and ladies,

A Google search for anything “Eclipse Aviation” in the past 24 hours yielded the following from eBay:


“This was the giveaway item at the May 2nd, 2008 Isotopes minor league baseball game.

It is an Eclipse Aviation Eclipse 500 plane in a bobblehead style (a bobble-plane, if you will).

I am looking for it in very good condition (no paint [c]hipping or chips in the ceramic, no broken pieces, etc).

I have a search term set up for bobble-plane, so if you list one for sale, please use "bobble-plane" in the title so my ebay search will find it.


(end of quote)

It would appear that this advertiser on eBay may very well win Shane’s contest for the name of the “E500" (“E-five-uh-oh”) . . . (and I quote), “Bobble-Plane”. At first, I was confused, thinking the poor man actually wanted the “real thing” and/or it was a new method of increasing the “order book”, until I read further.

“Bobble -Plane”? . . . why not?


(For those from other parts of the world, the old farm team name was “The Dukes”, named after the “Duke of Alburquerque, Spain, for whom “Albuquerque, NM”, was named. The new name is now, the “Isotopes” . . . or in other words, “Get a Half-Life”. And, no, I did not miss-spell “Alburquerque”.)

John said...

There are a number of other EA500's that have flown in KGNV but do not show an exit flight.
S/N --Tail -- notes
5 --N504RS --flight to Gainesville 3/14 on sale w/ 40 hours TT
11 --N777VE --several Gainesville loops 2/13 on sale $1,649K
15 --N515MP --to Gainesville 4/23/08
38 --N112EA --to Gainesville 3/20/08
42 --N168TT --Gainesville 3/29/08
80 --580WC --to Gainesville 2/23/08

Black Tulip said...

The Not Yet Jet

FreedomsJamtarts said...

...decorated hero fighter pilot...

That also describes Hermann Goering!

Copernicus said...


Here are 3 suggestions:

Wimpy or Wimpy Jet

Not that the jet is wimpy, but named for the world's most famous questionable promiser, who stated "I would gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

Schubert or Schubert 8

This is inspired by the most famous unfinished work of art, Schubert's Unfinished Symphony. Perhaps the FAA would change the ATC code for the airplane to SH08. Blog could adopt G clef, 8th note or some other music-related item as official symbol.

45 or 45 jet

This comes from "The 45" of Scottish/English history where the English beat the Scots in in the Jacobite uprising of 1745. So "the 45" was a would-be revolution that turned out otherwise. This nickname would provide critics with a de facto official beverage: Drambuie. Look at the label--it says, "a link with the 45", because it was the favorite drink of the leader of the failed revolution.

gadfly said...

Black Blossom

You're a genius . . . 'just take what you said, add the Russian connection: "Nyet Jet"!


airtaximan said...

Cessna is delaying delivery of the
172 TD models in light of the crisis at Thielert, according to AVweb.

I wonder if they were smart enough to demand non-refundable deposit money released from escrow just before this announcement?

Black Tulip said...


It sounds even better in Russian.

Dave said...

Eclipse touting single pilot commercial operations now:
It's not like the Eclipse doesn't have enough problems the way things are - might as well make "air taxis" even more dangerous.

Dave said...

Federal government shows DayJet is DOA:
A federal government press release from last year saying that DayJet would have 100 aircraft by the end of 2007.

There must be some really bad news that Eclipse wants to hide as per the alleged Vern letter, it was about DayJet...

Shadow said...

To be fair, the JPDO "news" of 100 aircraft was off by a full year. DayJet hopes to have 100 aircraft by the end of this year (2008), not 2007 as implied in this story.

Last I heard, DayJet is due to take deliveries of Eclipse 500s this month. If that doesn't happen, then something's going on. Either DayJet didn't get the additional funding it's been seeking, it's refusing to take delivery of incomplete E-500s or both.

Dave said...


The FAA is forecasting a *total VLJ (including Eclipse as well as all other VLJ manufacturers)* of between 400-500 per year:
"At the October 2006 TRB/FAA workshop, industry experts suggested the market for new VLJs could add
500 aircraft a year to the active fleet by 2010. The relatively inexpensive twin-engine VLJs (priced
between $1 and $2 million) are believed by many to have the potential to redefine the business jet segment
by expanding business jet flying and offering performance that could support a true on-demand
air-taxi business service. The actual number of VLJ deliveries in 2007 fell short of our assumption in last years forecast (143 vs 350). However, the current forecast assumes that they will continue to enter the active fleet at a rate of 400 to 500 aircraft a year, reaching 8,145 aircraft by 2025."

Also from the same document:
"Utilization rates for VLJs will vary by mission. VLJ air taxis are expected to average
approximately 1,500 hours per year, shared ownership users about 525 and private use 375. By 2025
the annual utilization rate for all VLJs is forecast to be 1,014 hours. Traditional (non-VLJ) turbojets are expected to average approximately 397 hours per year by 2025, as VLJs are expected to have a greater share of their use in on-demand air taxi than the traditional turbojets."

Eclipse Aviation is built on high volume production and the FAA says the volume isn't there...

airsafetyman said...

"VLJ air taxis are expected to average
approximately 1,500 hours per year..."

On what planet?

Speed Racer said...

Word on the street today is that Dayjet made a round of layoffs. No details yet regarding the number of employees or positions affected.

As of 12N PST, there is no mention of this layoff in the press.

Minority Report said...

James Fallows seems to think that everything is going extremely well at DayJet.

Here's his article from the most recent Atlantic Monthly.

John said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
forest said...

Kudos to the NM State Investment Council for updating it's website through the first 2 months of 08.

Interesting read on Eclipse from the Private Equity Investment Advisory Committee.
This group advises the SIC.
From November 26, 2007 meeting


This is OPEN RECORD information.
Highlights ....
"On the financing side, Mr. Birk said Eclipse closed a $200+ million financing round in June at very attractive terms for new investors; as a result of those attractive terms and the kind of coverage provided, it was actually lower than what it had been marked up to in the past (although not lower than the cost basis that the State had invested originally), and consequently there is a valuation markdown because of the mark to market guidelines that are appropriately applied."

"He stated that Sun Mountain is
currently in the midst of an assessment process to understand exactly what that potential is. He said the original premise of Eclipse was that they could produce in sufficient quantities to drive economies of scale and lower pricing from their suppliers, and thus be able to make a jet that costs only about $1.8 million rather than $2.5 million. He commented that this is an extremely compelling premise; and as the Committee knows, Eclipse is back-ordered nearly four years, and that amounts to billions and billions of dollars, and that validates this price point and market premise."

"Mr. Birk continued, “But I can’t tell you today that I’m one hundred percent convinced that everything’s going to work because, number one, we’ve had some issues around getting access to some of the information we need to really do this work, and that revolves around a nondisclosure agreement. "

"Mr. Enloe asked if there is any action that the PEIAC or SIC can or should take to enhance the viability of Eclipse, keeping in mind that the State is a relatively
small investor. Mr. Birk responded that part of the purpose of his trip to New York is to further flesh out what their options really are, and Sun Mountain is working with Mr. Bland and staff to lay out a potential plan that will bring some of the larger investors to the table to try to drive things in a positive direction.
Mr. Bland added that, with the various changes in investment bankers, therehas been a change in attitude with respect to shareholders’ rights and the debtholders’ rights, and staff has had a couple of difficult discussions with the company and the investment banker over their sharing of information and their forthrightness. He said the SIO is exploring alternatives.
Mr. Davis commented that what he finds disturbing is that a company that the SIC has invested in and has supported through good times and engine troubles and now manufacturing difficulties “is not coming to us with truly pertinent

The is a lengthly discussion. Only some highlights are presented above.
Looks like some hard questions are being asked. Albeit a little late.
Again, it is clear that an independent, aviation consultant/ engineer was not consulted during the due diligence process. If one was consulted they were either a) not independent, or b) incompetent.

gadfly said...

‘Looking to see any “new-News” as reported by “John”, concerning “464PG”,I noticed the Cessna ad on “Flight Aware” that says: “Mr. Spine say hello to Mr. Tingle.”

‘Sorry, Cessna, but this time me thinks that Eclipse has you beat. What might be going up and down the spines of surprised flight crews of our little “Nyet Jet”, these days? (And to think that the “potty” was offered as an option.)


Technical question: When the plug is pulled, do the assets of a company go “clockwise” or “counter-clockwise”?
Oh, and a word of advice to the SIC . . . keep this as far away from that fan as possible. It ain’t goin’ to be pretty!

Dave said...

Some more info from the forest's post regarding SIC:
"He added that Eclipse had a handshake deal with Dallas-based Highland Capital, and that deal fell apart at the eleventh hour; as CEO Vern Raburn has publicly stated, the company was hours away from Chapter 11 filing — but they were able to pull together this $200+ million financing in order to keep the company moving forward in order to meet production targets."
I believe this is new info. Vern had never been so explicit as to say Eclipse was hours away from Chapter 11...

"He commented that this is an extremely compelling premise; and as the Committee knows, Eclipse is back-ordered nearly four years, and that amounts to billions and billions of dollars, and that validates this price point and market premise. He added, however, that Sun Mountain doesn’t yet have access to information that would allow it to determine whether Eclipse can actually achieve those production points, although Sun Mountain believes they can based on the progress the company has made in recent months. He said that, in looking at the ramp-up, there has been clear, demonstrable and material progress in terms of throughput and quantities achieved."
Did Burk bother checking with the FAA projects (or any other third parties) or does he simply regurgitate what his portfolio company tells him? It seems like a complete lack of due diligence that Birk *ONLY* spoke to Eclipse about production projections.

"Mr. Birk continued, “But I can’t tell you today that I’m one hundred percent convinced that everything’s going to work because, number one, we’ve had some issues around getting access to some of the information we need to really do this work, and that revolves around a nondisclosure agreement. And number two, we have not had an in-depth dialogue with the current note holders, who really hold all the cards in this kind of situation.” He stated that he and partner Sally Corning plan to meet with the note holders in New York later this week and an investment bank that has been retained to help attract some additional capital for the company. He said this information-gathering trip should help them get their facts aligned to the point where he will be able to be more definitive."
Eclipse went for public financing, so why is keeping the taxpayers in the dark even an issue. Shouldn't disclosure been a necessary part of obtaining taxpayer financing?

I believe one of the reasons for this change (aside from Eclipse being downgraded) is that the SIC has new leadership. Hopefully they will actually do their fiduciary duties and not let anyone double-talk, hide or obfuscate from them in preventing them from protecting the taxpayer's money.

baron95 said...

CW said... to create a premature abomination of an airplane

Ouch!!! Aren't we exagerating just a tad here? Other than the avionics, there is nothing terribly wrong with the plane. performance, range, handling, etc, seem to be OK and better than many jets.

baron95 said...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

I'd like to see a 350hp turbo-diesel on the Malibu/Meridian - it would finally have the engine it deserves

The Mirage/Meridian airframe needs more than 350HP, unless you are talking about 350HP continous opps. That airframe needs 450HP to push it through the air. Maybe the new Merceds 4.0l diesel block can be pushed out to 400HP reliably.

airtaximan said...


I like your posts, FWIW...

I often find myself a litle over the top regarding eclipse, but that's the fun of the blog. Frustrations emerge, and of course there's always the dino-hating man in the corner to make your blood boil.

CW knows a lot, and I would think his comments illuminate one basic fact - the claims were way off, the jet is having serious quality issues, and the plane is not finished... which IS a big deal if one remembers all the BS from ABQ.

Cessna just put the diesel 172 on haitus for a while... did they demand non-efundable depsoits just prior to announcing engine supplier issues?

Case in point

Thanks for the level...

gadfly said...

Here’s an interesting thought:

All you folks that came into New Mexico, “The Land of Enchantment”, to work on the little jet, are now “tax payers” . . . at a rather high rate, in fact, to a state that “claims” to be “business friendly” (yes, I know it’s a joke, but let’s keep it serious for the moment). If for no other reason, you have a “right” to know how your “tax money” is being spent (let me re-phrase that, “. . . how it was spent”). You invested your hard earned tax money in this project . . . insist on accountability. The moment the little bird factory accepted public funds, they accepted the responsibility of “accountability” to the tax payers . . . and that is “you”, and me.

It shouldn’t be a painful process . . . other companies have followed the rules . . . many chose to “leave” after they learned about our state, but that’s an entirely different story, for now. For the moment, you, the “tax payers”, need to know what’s going on, and you have a “right” to know. And if you think that everything is “OK”, then we need to know that, also. After all, “Fair is Fair!”

‘Nuff sed!


(If you hadn’t noticed, we have some media in our midst . . . radio stations, . . . one is heard across the entire Southwest, and a newspaper that is read “state wide”, and beyond our borders. Anyone with a mind to, can give their opinions far and wide.)

chickasaw said...

I am not on the list. Although I have been reading the blog since last August, I only recently started posting.

By the way, I started reading the blog as soon as I was told it was not a good idea to read it.

Dave said...

Here's some more self-dealing by Sun Moutain advising that $15 million be put into vSpring fund, which invests in Aspen Avionics - Aspen is a Sun Moutain portfolio company but Sun Moutain doesn't advise of this conflict and how this is self-enrichment for Sun America:

There's some friction between the internal SIC managers and those outside:
Perhaps having only state employees and not self-dealing outside companies would result in a quicker resolution to Eclipse.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


I base that determination on comparison of the promised vs available functionality, and the promised vs real world reliability.

During the timeframe that the Eclipse racked up 83 Service Difficulty Reports, the 737-300 had 81.

Where the Eclipse had flight control bindings, trim runaways, autopilot failures, display failures, air data failures, etc., the 737 saw minor floor cracking and small patches of corrosion.

Where the Eclipses had on average under 100 hours TT, the 737's had 50,000 cycles and near 70,000 hours.

Where the Eclipse has about 40 in commercial service accounting for those reports there are over 1,100 737's.

Vern has trumpeted the WeeJet as being a mini-737, ready for high-utilization commercial service from day one (with apologies to the Clinton campaign).

This thing is an abject failure at the primary mission we are to believe it was designed for.

I stand behind my characterization.

Gunner said...

I do so wish you'd stop mincing words and tell us how you REALLY feel. ;-)

Great summary of Vern's accomplishments to date.

gadfly said...

Up until now, I cannot recall a single comment or compliment on this blog site, or the one before it, praising/defending the quality, or integrity, or . . . whatever, of this company. Now, that seems most strange! Most of the companies for which I have worked seemed worthy of praise . . . at least “small praise” . . . or at least a comment, now and then. For 1,600 employees to be “silent” strikes me as being “mighty strange”. And my suspicion rises to great heights. And, by the way, I am a taxpayer in the State of New Mexico, and want to know, publicly, how my tax money is being spent.

Here we are, in sort of a “lull” between promises not kept, and promises that . . . why is there a dead silence, just now? Anyway, we find ourselves in a “lull” . . . and here is a clear opportunity for any and all to express their support for the working environment of the “little bird” from Albuquerque. Here is a wonderful opportunity for someone . . . anyone, to speak up on behalf of “Eclipse” and the wonderful daily achievements being experienced out at the “Albuquerque International Sunport” . . . and . . . silence! Come on, folks, this was the company that promised to be “open”. OK, we’re “Open”. We truly wish to hear about the wonderful little bird. ‘Keep it “vague” (we’re not after technological secrets, but just an assurance that the employees are “happy in their work”, and that our “tax money”, spelled “TAX MONEY”, is well spent. Often, a “happy worker” makes for an excellent product.

You see, if Eclipse succeeds, Albuquerque succeeds, and all of us in the surrounding manufacturing community succeed, either directly, or indirectly. And even those “at the top of the taxation pyramid” succeed. (What? Did I say something I wasn’t supposed to? . . . oh yeh, “pyramid”, . . . I’ll try to avoid that term next time. ‘Not to worry . . . the governor is out-of-state, just now . . . Kentucky Derby, Political Campaigning, “Gay Rights Award”, failing to tell the “Lt. Governor” that he would be gone, for awhile . . . all that sort of thing . . . “Sunday Albuquerque Journal” Front Page . . . it’s OK to quote those facts, right?. . . most everyone read all that, and then turned to the “funnies”, or “Parade”, or the ads . . . ‘having seen nothing unusual in the headlines. Oh yeh, I forgot to ask how he got from “here to there”. You’d think that having supported the “little jet” in Albuquerque, he would have used the taxpayers funds to fly in an “E500" . . . to show his firm support for the little aircraft, in which he invested our tax money . . . but then, he has much finer aircraft available . . . and with his “challenged size”, the “Eclipse might not have gotten him to the “Derby” and back in due time.) The original point was that we want to succeed, in order to pay those “state income tax” bills.

There are many issues, far beyond the understanding of a simple ‘gadfly’ . . . such things are beyond my intellect.


For you scientific types, let me know when we achieve "critical mass". After all, New Mexico is where all that sort of thing first took place. In light of that, the "nyet jet" seems somehow, sort of anticlimatic . . . sort of a "fizzle", rather than a "boom".

Dave said...

Here is a wonderful opportunity for someone . . . anyone, to speak up on behalf of “Eclipse” and the wonderful daily achievements being experienced out at the “Albuquerque International Sunport” . . . and . . . silence!

Eclipse has claimed that "rumors and lies" are very aware of what's posted here, yet completely fails to do any sort of rebuttle. In the court of public opinion "silence means consent" and in the court of law Eclipse isn't "mitigating damages" because this board isn't causing any damages - Eclipse has consented this board is too accurate and it's the accuracy that is damaging Eclipse, which SCO can't stop except through attempts at legal intimidation.

baron95 said...

There is really nothing particularly bad with Eclipse or the EA500 other than they way the CEO of the company chooses to communicate. From being insulting to the existing players, to boasting of game-changing, to stretching the truth. That is really the only problem. All else is par or better.

Missed deadlines, revised schedules, missed expectations is the norm in this industry, not the exception. For those who take exception at this comment, look at the largest of them all: Boeing. Executives going to jail for fraud. 6-month delay, after 6-month delay, after 6-month delay on the 787 project. KC767 tanker delayed for years, etc, etc, etc. And that is with all the mature processes, experiences, CATIA databases, etc.

Change the CEO communication tone to one of modesty and straight communication and it is an above average aviation startup, with above average funding, above average product.

It is just too bad that some folks here can't seem to separate the CEO's flaws from Eclipse's achievements, which are not insignificant.

gadfly said...


Many who read these comments agree with what is said, yet haven’t the courage to step into the “fray”, and take a stand. And although I am not surprised, I am disappointed. You see, to “take a stand” might require a “cost” . . . and that has too much intimidation to most. But “having been there, done that”, the overall rewards far exceed the immediate price paid to self and family. And as an “old man”, I can say that in the long run, there are rewards in standing firm for the right principles, that go beyond this life. But, hey, what does a “gadfly” know?


(When a “fly” hits the windshield, you know, of course, the last thing that passes through his mind? . . . (in aeronautical terms) his empenage!)

Gunner said...

Baron said:
"Change the CEO communication tone to one of modesty and straight communication and it is an above average aviation startup..."

I disagree completely. Change the CEO communication tone to one of modesty and straight communication and you'll have about 200 Depositors demanding their Progress Payments back, a dozen or so Vendors heading for the Courts in recognition that 10 cents on the dollar is better than nothing, a couple hundred more Depositors demanding their initial Deposits back, a few key investors suing the company for fraud, an FAA Investigation of current and past practices that would probably ground the fleet and a few hundred more Would-Be Depositors refusing Eclipse's phone calls.

Comparing this company to Boeing (or the EA-50X "project" to the Boeing 787) is such a farce as to demand a null response.

Dave said...

Comparing this company to Boeing (or the EA-50X "project" to the Boeing 787) is such a farce as to demand a null response.

I took the message to be that Vern can expect criminal convictions and prison time. That wouldn't surprise me. Vern isn't directing anyone from Eclipse to "mitigate damages" by challenging what's posted on this board, so it probably means that nobody at Eclipse wants to be fitted for an orange jumpsuit if they don't have to by making false official statements on behalf of Eclipse.

Eclipse's silence on this board is deafening. All Eclipse can do is attack this board, but cannot refute it and in so doing is acknowleging that what's said her is correct.

Mr. Big said...

Another great resource

airtaximan said...

Gadfly, I fear you are wrong on this one my friend. I have repeatedly priased Vern for being able to raise money... over and over... and this IS Eclipse aviation. Its not a plane and its not game-changing technology nor is it a "value proposition". Its money... a big fat ATM feeding a dream.

Its a money raising machine. Vern's at the helm... without him, his friends and his "talents".. there is no Eclipse. That's why he is still there. The BOD knows it...and he just keep fueling the dream.

You are completely wrong when you say there's nothing bad about Eclipse except for how the CEO communicates.

- the PRODUCT is a farce compared to what was promised
- the plane does not meet the standards set out by THE COMPANY when they sold it to customers
- THE COMPANY failed to meet its pricing, production, quality and performance goals - again and again.
- The promised game-changing technologies supposedly embedded in the product are gone or diluted to negligible value... nothing left, move along

You comment that one man's communication skills is responsible for ALL the companies woes is tough to swallow - this would mean that despite Vern, there's somehow a culture of qualty and integrity, and a product that is simply fantastic in there somewhere... but it's hidden from the public.

Vern is at the helm, and he IS responsible... but, I would say that the whole product and production machine is badly broken or was misdesigned... the premise of Eclipse (high rate and lower cost) is a complete disaster. A complete fabrication, in order to forward price the plane - a tactic that failed miserably.

The have no real product offering without higher rate and lower cost. EAC cannot meet the production rate needed for B/E... and, what ever for?

There is little demand compared to what is needed, except for Phantom sister-company (euro Ed, and Ed) orders.

True Vern is a disaster... magnifying the problems instead of solving them. But, I can't help but think...

If they had a real product with real VALUE at a price that makes sense based on real world volume... all his blustering would be of little consequence.

gadfly said...

With apologies to the taximan, as I had "assumed" this blog site to be "mostly" about the "product" and "company", rather than the "man" (of whom I know next to nothing):

To borrow something from Scripture, “I’m neither a prophet, nor the son of a prophet”, but in regard to the “Nyet Jet”, I think that in the not-to-distant-future, regardless of the outcome of “Eclipse” finding the identity of those who “dare” to criticize this operation, and/or seek to know the facts surrounding the use of “public funds” in promoting the “little bird”, the results will bring to an end the operation as it now exists. Maybe someone will find this pathetic design a thing to “resurrect” . . . and continue the advances of aeronautical technology, with a fifty year or so, handicap.

My own father owned a Duesenberg . . . actually “two” of them. As fine as they were, it’s time to “move on”. Maybe, someone will at some distant time in the future, rebuild one of these little jets, “for old times sake”, but for what purpose? They “flew” . . . they were “fun” for a few hours . . . and created a few “thrills” (did they ever!). OK, now what? (In anticipation of your thoughts . . . no, there is not the slightest connection between a Duesenberg, the ultimate in technology of the time, and the little bird . . . only that adjusting for time, there might be a connection . . . they both used aluminum.)

Predictions: . . . ah, maybe I better leave that to you, you have enough information to fill in each and every blank . . . and you all know the outcome. Congratulations . . . you are all “prophets”.


(Jay Leno should live so long! . . . to restore an antique E500 . . . anything is possible, if he can find the parts.)

Dave said...


Here's another website for obtaining public information that is damaging to Eclipse:

Specifically here is Eclipse giving money to fiduciary members of the NM SIC:,%20Vern%20&name=&fname=Vern&mname=&lname=Raburn&zip=87119-9648
(the members are State Treasurer Lewis, Commissioner of Public Land Lyons and Governor Richardson)
Is it any surprise that the SIC is so slow to act in investigating Eclipse and providing the taxpayers with the information they deserve?

If nothing else this gives *the appearance of impropriety*, particulary with the SIC being so slow in actually performing their fiduciary duties in regards to Eclipse. This is further compounded by *the appearance of impropriety* with the SIC's advisor self-dealing in recommending Sun Mountain's own investments.

Is Birk incompetent or unethical in not revealing to the SIC the FAA study on the total size of the VLJ market (400-500 per year annually across all VLJ manufacturers)? Why are there no disclosures in the SIC minutes revealing to the fiduciaries that Sun Mountain is self-dealing on numerous investments recommended to the SIC? Why did these fiduciaries accept money from Eclipse given that they have a fiduciary responsibility to the New Mexico taxpayers? This might only be scratching the surface on something Eclipse wants to remain buried...

gadfly said...


In other words, I, as a taxpayer, have donated to the man whom I have voted against?

You have got to know, "that's goin' to leave a mark!"


"Ouch!" . . . and how in the world do you remove that sort of thing? . . . and all in the public record.

Dave said...

Eclipse has recently made a big deal about getting certification in Australia. Well, it turns out Australia only did it based on the FAA:
So the Australia certification is just an extension of the FAA certification:$FILE/A00002AC.pdf
Rather than something separate.

The same would appear for India with its bilateral agreement with the US:

airtaximan said...


No sir, you happen to be correct. I was wrong, in that I referred to positive comments I made regarding Vern, when you are correct - he is not the company... which was my next point... imagine that juxtaposition..

Perhaps I should resort to writing PR for Eclipse?


gadfly said...


You is got me all confused . . . this little bird is in what kind of position? . . . juxta what? . . . 'Seems to me you got it right, somehow, so I'll just let you rip on it, and when it's all over, we'll have a good laugh.

You's a good man, I can tell!


airtaximan said...

see, I told you you are right

easybakeplane said...


You say there is nothing 'bad' with the EA500 or Eclipse and that everyone misses deadlines, thereby trying to equate the EA500 with other bizjets, but there are problems making that comparison.

1. Boeing may have missed their deadlines and underestimated production difficulties, but they have actual, verifiable customers and they are a publicly held company that is not going to fold if there are problems with the 787 EIS.

2. HBC/Raytheon may have missed deadlines and performance on the Horizon, but the FAA didn't give them a free pass when they asked for it, in fact quite the opposite.

3. Cessna may 'underprice' some of their aircraft as compared to others, but it is usually because they are using existing designs and the pricing power of their whole product line, not fictionial production rates that scam vendors.

4. Then we have Eclipse: missed deadlines, missed performance, questionable certification, fictionial business case/pricing, unethical vendor/customer/investor $$ issues and on top of that a CEO that brags he knows better than everyone else.

I could go on...

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

Here's a follow-up online posting to the Atlantic Monthly Dayjet article mentioning that Dayjet is competing with prop planes for those who would otherwise be driving:

Also here's photos of a DayJet trip along with narration:

Also here's some elaboration on FAA forecasts by someone in the California Department of Transportation:
"According to Barrie, the FAA forecasts that 70 to 75 percent of all very light jets will be used in air taxi services that will operate out of general aviation airports and there is money out there to make it happen."
That means that Eclipse is going to have to convince commercial operators that their plane can withstand high utilization...the FAA records should give pause as to whether Eclipse or some other manfacturer's jet should be used for commercial operations. If the Eclipse isn't seen as robust enough for commercial operations, 75% of their market dries up.

Ecliption said...

Gadfly, what was the issue with 464PG?

stan said...

From the Eclipse "Hot Jobs" posting:

Director, IT Operations
Reference Code IT#001

An excerpt:

"At this point the help-desk function presents an impediment to continuing good relations with internal customers. They display a poor attitude and are not as responsive as they should be. This is a priority and needs to be remedied quickly."

gadfly said...


As with most of us, I have no more information than the reports from open sources in the media and the internet. I, too, am curious to know.


Gunner said...

Management is obviously missing the mark, again.

"I sit on a man's back, choking him and making him carry me and yet assure others that I am sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all possible means--except by getting off his back."
Leo Tolstoy


Ecliption said...

Gadfly, I meant to ask what was originally posted here about it. You made a comment on John's post but he removed the post so I didn't get to see what was originally said.

gadfly said...


Following the link to "Flightaware" at the time, the plane was on a trip "east", according to flight plan, and turned back to ABQ. Further information was not given . . . and I remain in the dark, with you, as to anything after that.

It's gettin' to be like the old cowboy that couldn't remember whether he found a piece of rope or lost his horse. You have to look hard and fast.


Shane said...

I wonder if this can be true? Several sources tell me that a large, Florida based airtaxi company are in the process of 'correcting' previous overestimates. I understand that both staff and aircraft will be seeking alternative employers.

Not sure who should be more worried. Vern or his long suffering investors, sorry, 'position holders'....

I'm reliably informed that the web sites will be buzzing with all of this later today. But then, what would I know? I'm only a thick Irish lad, with a blog that seems to predict the future of a certain New Mexico based aircraft 'assembly' operation.


John said...

Clarification on 464PG

This craft turned back to Roswell. It was clear from its later flight, that a large squall line was the issue.

I had checked Albq weather and got VFR, but evidently the squall was east of ALBQ at that time.

Gunner said...

Your talents for understatement are remarkable. Hope nobody missed it!

Dave said...

Be aware that when researching Dayjet sometimes they use their old name - Wingedfoot Services LLC:

Shane said...

Stand by for an important announcement, which I'm pretty sure will rate a new thread.

As a preview I will state that, for the record, Vern has just lost almost 1,400 'orders'.


gadfly said...

'Maybe you should rent an upstairs flat on a backstreet in Belfast, where you'll be safe.


Gunner said...

That GetReal guy sure knows his stuff. He's the one that reminded us how far out front of us all Shogun Vern is. I see it now, too late. Vern intends to distract us with loss of $3 BILLION in revenues, while he quietly rolls out the truly Verntastic ConJet...."the plane we should have been building all along".

Brilliance worthy of the corner office holder.

Dave said...

Hopefully James Fallows of The Atlantic wasn't lied to in his article that came out yesterday when he took a DayJet flight with Eclipse employee Bruce Holmes:
And there are the other perils that can affect any start-up, especially in a field with the life-and-death risks of aviation. Maybe the Eclipse airplanes will prove to have some flaw. (In part for this reason, DayJet has always intended to add other kinds of jets to its fleet as they come on the market. The next promising one is from Honda.) Maybe there will be a crash or a terrorist threat. Maybe as the company triples its workforce within a year, it will have trouble maintaining its can-do culture. Maybe something else will go wrong.

So is that DayJet is abandoning Eclipse (in which case wouldn't make those who gave Fallows info to be liars) or is Eclipse not tripling staff as Fallows just reported yesterday? I gather that Fallows has worked with Holmes for years and if what Fallows reported turned out to be false, that could result in a breach of trust...

gadfly said...


'With bated breath, and whispring humblenesse.', (we await the news from afar).


(With apologies to Shakespeare, 1596, “Merchant of Venice” i. iii. 125)

Gunner said...

I think Hamlet's soliloquy is more appropriate just now.
To be or not to be, that is the question.

Shane Price said...


Belfast is now a charming place to visit, with lots of interesting places and really nice people. You can see where the Titanic was built, take an open topped bus ride to see the excellent (and unique) open air art that is the wall paintings, eat some truly remarkable food and stay in some of the best hotels on these islands.

Hard to believe that only 10 years ago is was a battleground in one of the hardest fought civil conflicts, ever.

Today we saw history written, when our own Prime Minister met with the 'First Minister' of Northern Ireland on the historic battlefield on the River Boyne, to open a heritage centre for ALL the people of this green and lovely island.

But I digress, and I've just put up a new post (as promised) which you should all now read.


airtaximan said...


since almost the beginning of the blog, a few points were made regarding EAC.

1- the plane competes with props.
2- there is no appreciable time savings using eclipse for short flights
3-it an expensive alternative to a prop, especially a single prop
4- the limited load makes a prop a beter choice for air taxi in many cases
5-e500 was not designed to withstand airline type use... despite the claim it was designed as a revolutionary air taxi jet

- you may find these statements prophetic... given what is now being reported