Thursday, February 12, 2009

Love it, loath it.

We've been so tied up waiting for news from Moscow that I've been slow to update the headline post, but I've also been working with a number of owners and/or pilots to provide a 'warts and all' review of the FPJ in the real world. It's fair to summarize my findings with the headline above, as it's clear to me that the aircraft is like the mythical 'little girl'. You all know the story, which goes like this:-

"When she is good, she is very, very good. But when she is bad, she is horrid"

So, with that in mind, herewith a mixture of quotations (in red) and my own contributions which remain in good old fashioned black. It's a very underrated colour in my humble opinion, but I digress.

The basics
Most of us have never flown an FPJ, and it's probably fair to say that few of us critics would embrace the opportunity were it ever to present itself. Across the range of replies I've had, the common theme is that the bird flies very well, and meets (or exceeds) it's performance numbers. A typical comment:-

"Aerodynamicly they got the airframe design and engines right, they are a well blended match producing the performance numbers that were advertised. So Eclipse actually did meet that promise. The jet is very simple to fly, and the Avio NG system, although full of bugs, has a great display presentation and very logical interface to all of the aircrafts' systems."

Avio, both versions
It has some fans. Pilots like the presentation of everything in one style and they like the Crew Alerting System (CAS) popping up in plain view. They like the fact that you select one 'TO Configuration' and pretty much avoid the simpler ways to kill yourself on takeoff.

"The Avio NG system, although full of bugs, has a great display presentation and very logical interface to all the aircraft systems. For most this will be their first exposure to a crew alerting system. The CAS really reduces the workload and keeps you well informed on the health and status of the jet."

What drives everyone mad is due to the level of integration which tends to alert you a lot. Most pilots report that the audibles are too loud, to the point where they can interfere with ATC. The problem here is that there is no way to 'save' your preferred volume so that each time you fly you end up adjusting it again.

Startup, taxi and takeoff
A common thread with the FPJ is the GPU 'requirement'. It seems that any sort of hot weather at all makes the cockpit too uncomfortable to work in, so a number of pilots insist on starting the aircon first, which naturally ties you to the GPU. After doing the normal checklist, which is straightforward enough for a twin jet, it's time to taxi away. The size of the tires is blamed by several for what's claimed to be a rough ride, and the turning circle means you need to stay on top of your game out to the runway.

"Acceleration is fairly quick, inside is amazingly quiet. There is a nuisance alarm that can occur at warm ambient temps giving the occassional engine Warning message but other then that its APR armed, Airspeed alive, and at VR hands off the thottles and pull back on the stick. I wasn't sure if I would like the side stick, but after using it, I love the fact that you're wide open in front of you, perfect if you want to use your laptop or read something. At 400 feet flaps up, set max continuous thrust, and yaw damp on, 1000 feet auto pilot on, heading select, and the next check is 10k for recognition lights off and look for a delta P on the pressuization. To date all delivered E500'a are raw data, VOR DME aircraft. Autopilot is only good for pitch and roll. I have yet to fly an Eclipse that doesn't roll left and right 3 to 5 degrees when in heading mode."

So far, so good. The bird starts, taxi's and takes off without huge drama and in commendably short order. The takeoff distances are praised and the 'feel' of the aircraft also gets high marks.

Climb, cruise and descent
The Autopilot has its' limits, which many pilots have observed. While good in calm air, it tends to bug out in anything other than light turbulence. Range and payload are better than you would think, in large part due to the very low specific fuel consumption. This is clearly a tribute to the basic design, as well as the job P&W did on a 'clean sheet' engine. But there are 'real world' issues that you don't expect.

"Another downside to the autopilot is when commanding pitch changes in an NG aircraft. It sometimes takes up to 20 seconds or so before the input gets processed by the computers. My technique is to dial in 4 to 5 clicks of the wheel and resist the temptation to dial more if there is no initial response. Wait it out, eventually it will happen. In pitch mode the autopilot does a terrible job of maintaining a steady rate of descent, and it requires constant attention. I actuallly think it would be less work load to hand fly the descents."

ATC still don't quite know what to make of the FPJ. Over time this will probably go away, but only if the FPJ stays alive long enough, in numbers, so that the slower speed becomes more familiar to the controllers. To mix it with the jets at higher FL's also requires range limiting 'max thrust' settings, and there are issues with static interference on the radios cause by ice crystals. So, the comfortable range flight of about 850nm is coming to a end. What happens next?

Final approach and landing
Distractions from the 'high volume' audibles during final are a pain, as are the speed expectations from ATC. Our old friend of tyre wear makes a welcome reappearance on the blog. Remember when all we really talked about were simple things like that? Anyway, a concluding quote from an owner/pilot.

"Descents and landings are straight forward, although you will soon find that the slow speeds on approach used in the Sims create road blocks in the real world. Because a lot of ATC controllers aren't familiar with the Eclipse, they know you are a jet and sequence you into traffic accordingly and are expecting jet speeds. I usually fly the approach around 120 to 115, and slow as I approach 200 feet AGL. The jet lands easy, and as long as you touch down close to VTD, braking or tire blowouts should not be a problem. The tires do not wear well at all, and it is not the landings that take the toll. Any time the jet rolls on the ground, you can see black marks on the pavement, proof that the tires are leaving behind lots of rubber. And they wear on the outside near the sidewalls, not in the center."

So thats a pretty nice summary of the general performance of the aircraft, with details supplied by those who fly it. Naturally, there is more.

Living with the 'issues'
Naturally people are reluctant to be identified when there is still a remaining chance the original service centers will be around. They don't want to be scapegoated for drawing attention to the problems they've experienced so I'll have to be a bit vague in collating this section and avoid direct quotations.

The CAS system does exactly that. It keeps the crew alert by streaming plenty of false messages into the cockpit. All pilots who've contacted me report the same 'heading disagree', 'attitude disagree' and 'stick pusher fail' messages which come and go at a whim. The general experience with the earlier birds is worse, but even the Avio NG craft deliver master cautions and warnings of a spurious nature about one flight in four.

Mechanical failures abound, sadly, with door seals, air conditioning, rudder and elevator trim 'issues' very common. All owners report difficulties with water getting into places it shouldn't, which is bound to happen when you're away from your home base with it's nice dry hanger. Most people also report interior trim falling off or not being fitted properly in the first place. There is a thread running through most of the report I have about difficulty communicating problems to the service centers. The staff themselves generally perform trojan work, but parts can take a long time to arrive from suppliers (I wonder why...) and often take several attempts to fix the underlying problem. At least one of my correspondents thinks this is due to the high level of integration within the aircraft, which means software problems with Avio are confusing the mechanics and (to some extent) vice versa.

So, there you have it. An up to date report, complied from many sources, on the current state of the FPJ, as an aircraft. As mentioned on the top of this post, we await news on the Chapter 11 outcome for the company, both from Moscow/ETIRC and the Bankruptcy Court in Delaware, where an appeal was lodged yesterday.

Spring approaches, as does the anniversary of the NG version of this blog. I'm just beginning to wonder if company (any version) will survive to help us celebrate the event, which takes place on Monday!



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bill e. goat said...

"silly, ridiculous, idiotic..."

Thanks for the compliment!
(Oh, you were talking to Fred- sorry).

And thanks to those who indulged my mis-statement about reverse pitch with old Cessna twins- constant speed props, but no reverse pitch, I'm told. (re: stopping on an icy runway).

fred said...

Billy ...

don't worry , i take this as compliment , as well ...

for a few seconds , i thought it was a ex-girl-friend talking to me ...

then i finally understood " Do not play with Baron's toys !" ;-))

bill e. goat said...

Hi Fred,
My foreign language tutoring has been mostly limited to variations of

(Spoken with a certain verve and gusto, I might add... :)

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

well , you know :

IT is NEVER too late to do good !

silly me , we are on the Fpj blog ...

well anything has got to have at least one exception !! ;-)

btw : i love when peoples call me stupid ... much less work to surprise them ...! ;-)

and if i don't want to surprise them , they do not bother me ...

i only want a simple life with simple thoughts with a simple happiness ....

FreedomsJamtarts said...

What other people think of me is none of my business.

Anonymous said...

It is Tuesday in Albuquerque.

Anyone have any insight into status of the deal?

Anyone ...

Anyone ...

Buehller ?

bill e. goat said...

Hi Fred,
I agree- complicated thoughts are sometimes so distressing.
I like to watch "Happy Days" reruns and think about lunch.

Along those lines, of making life as least complicated and unpainful as possible...I find myself with a need to learn both French and Brazilian Portuguese.

I believe both you and Baron are multilingual, any suggestions on which one an English native language speaker should learn first?

(Which, translated from lazy-man speak into English: If I only learn one, which one would be more appliacable to the other?

Similarly, if one were to learn German and Russian, which one would you recommend learning first?

When I draw color pictures, is there some prefered color for Europe (in the USA, it's "rose" :)

Jackrabbit said...

It was more than money supply manipulations that got us into this mess. In fact, it may have been the least responsible. Poor fiscal policy (tax cuts for the rich as we fight a war?!) and lax - many would say "permissive" - government regulation (spurred on by "crony capitalism") were also responsible.

Government is supposed to be a check on commercial interests. What happens when there is no (effective) check? "Runaway capitalism" with exploitation of workers (like immigrants), investors (like Madoff), and consumers (like Eclipse depositors).

TBMs_R_Us said...


Your explanation for (a) the reason M3 isn't published, and (b) why the gold standard was bad, will go down in blog history as two of the lamest head-in-the-sand comments ever made. When your dollars inflate to toilet paper, as they will have to, you will be glad you went out and bought some gold coins this week so you can buy bread.

The US has gone from being the largest creditor nation twenty years ago, to the largest debtor nation today. So having the largest economy simply means we'll have the largest bankruptcy. The unfunded obligations of the US gov't amount to perhaps $50T or more (including current debt, social security, medicare, etc). The demographic bulge of the baby boomers will bankrupt social security. There are only two possible fixes: do away with social security, which won't be possible politically, or print money to pretend to make the promised payments. Then lie about inflation, so those payments don't go up too much, while inflating the hell out of the dollar just to come up with the cash.

So yes, hiding M3 is symptomatic of a broken system, not symptomatic of a measure no longer meaningful. The only possible reason it could be no longer meaningful is that we have chosen to live with an inflating fiat currency that has no value. You talk about the US being the largest economy, but it's an economy with a huge trade and current account deficit, and debt to foreign countries growing by leaps and bounds. You speak of a $13T GDP, but easily 35% of that is made up of hedonics and imputations (such as the amount you supposedly pay yourself as rent for living in the house you own, and the amount you don't pay your bank because they give you free checking). Hedonics: you wrote about the price of computers falling, but do you know that if the CPU speed doubles, then the government says that the computer is worth twice as much as the one it replaces, and counts it that way in GDP?

So our country has a fictitious GDP and real inflation running around 10% or more, and a government actively misleading people into thinking they had more wealth in their home equity, so they could borrow more at artificially low interest rates and buy Chinese imports so as to have the better life, while the government borrows back those dollars from the Chinese. Hogwash! What happened to savings? They all got spent and then some. What happened to production? It all got replaced by services, almost none of which can be exported.

Fun ride ahead!

fred said...

billy ..

sit down and hold tight the ramp , i am going to try an elaborate answer for you ...! ;-)

you need to learn french and portuguese :

first , you should know that languages are working per "groups" once you know one in a group , others in same group should be easier (more or less same mechanism ...)

french and portuguese are together in the latin group with spanish , italian , romanian and moldavian !

which means that someone with practice of french will very able to read spanish (we write about the same , or romanian and moldavian...) but understand italian when talked ... without any academic knowledge of any ...
(off-course , it depends on the person as well !)

German is in anglosaxon group with english and dutch ...(the reason why dutch peoples are so good at english and german ...)

Russian is a bit more tricky = it conjugate in a way like the Latin of the roman empire (being close in that to German ) but it is an analytic language ( place of words in a sentence have no really much importance ) like asian languages
but with lots (really lots) of french words into it , with their original meaning ... (The star's court in St Petersbourg used to speak french ... as a touch of class ... weird idea !! ;-) )

if you want to learn french , i would give you the advice of spending some times into the country , as the "perfect french" is a pain in the bum , and almost no one speak it on a day to day basis ...
unfortunately this is the one which is taught in school , even if in france "may be" a few hundreds (tens?) use it ...

if you want to learn fast , forget about school , be courageous and put yourself in a position where you won't have any option out ... it is doing wonders , when you are lost in "the middle of nowhere" and have to ask in local language for your basic needs ... as soon as you'll hungry (no , not hungary ) you'll learn very fast !!!

i did learn Hebrew this way , very efficient !!! even if i was helped by knowledge of arabic ...!!

fred said...

Tbm :

excellent ! why don't you are the new finances minister ? "they" would stand a chance ...!!

jack :

yes , money manipulation was only a part of today's problems ...
it is more an accumulation of bad-habits , no-savings , self-blindness and lots of mistakes ....

but no one country is immune to this ...

bill e. goat said...

Hi Fred,
Thanks for the great advice.

I can read just a bit of Latin-based languages (enough, say, to deduce there is a story about a man and a dog. But I cannot deduce which one bit the other :)

I don't mean to pry, but I think many are like me and are wondering (with some astonishment!); how many languages do you speak ?!?

fred said...


i speak a "few" different languages ...

but i have a trick ...

i don't know any language 100% !

like i can have a talk in japan with locals ... off-course , they will probably laugh their asses off ... but i would know between man and dog who is the one to be suffering ...:-)

as long as i can get my way in and out , for me it is enough ...!

languages are meant for communication , not about showing off with knowledge of tenses !!

Shane Price said...


When I draw color pictures, is there some prefered color for Europe (in the USA, it's "rose" :)

That would be COLOUR and PREFERRED.

Our flag is 'reflex blue' with yellow stars to represent the (original) states. However, reflex blue has a d-Max above 1.8, so it's unsuitable for use in optical applications.

Opaque, in other words.

Which is a pretty good thing, as no one bothers to read our treaties or legislation for three very good reasons:-

1. No matter what agreement is signed in Brussels, the French do their own thing.

2. The Germans decide our interest rates and therefore control the economic output of the entire eurozone. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves.

3. We have an 'elephant in the room' which nobody will touch, called the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP for short) which attempts to support farmers. All it does is distort the so called 'common market' by setting unrealistic prices for commodity food products, which generates surpluses that in turn get dumped on the world markets. This impoverishes farmers everywhere and leads to endless arguments at GATT talks.

So, basically, everyone does their own thing and hopes to evade scrutiny from Brussels.

PS Learn Chinese. There are many more of 'them' than there are of 'us'.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Fred,
Your modesty is exceeded only by your intellect and good nature!

And to those desiring "simpleness", I am "amused" (!!) that they might take exception with your very correct observation;
"languages are meant for communication , not about showing off with knowledge of tenses"

Well, it's lunch time again.

I'm going to go get a bite of a hot dog!


Shane Price said...


Fred is being modest. I seem to recall 'count' at one time that listed 7 he was fluent in, plus a few more he could get by with....

Fluent means read, write and speak.


baron95 said...

EDT, very good economic post. Your facts are mostly right on, but you (and Fred) fail to understand that the US and its currency are different than any other country/currency.

Look at it this way. Lets say you could print a 10-year IOU note paying essentially ZERO interest and use it to buy a car from your neighbor, and your neighbor had no ability to enforce payment of the note (because you have more power than he does), and your neighbor depended on you buying his cars to feed his family. Wouldn't your print an endless collection of those notes to buy cars, clothes, planes, computers, etc to your neighbors?

Well that is exactly the position the US in in. We can print bills, notes, bonds paying virtually ZERO real interest rates, and China, Japan, Brazil, Russia, etc snap them by the hundreds of billions, in exchange for tangible assets like cars, clothes, bricks, cement, etc that build houses, roads, bridges in the US.

Why the heck would we want to put a stop to that? That is the best pyramid scam in the world going.

Who has the balls to put a stop to it?

baron95 said...

If there are no tangible news from ABQ soon, we'll have to rename this blog the US Economy Critics.

baron95 said...

Foreign governments and private investors in December purchased a net total of $34.8 billion in long-term securities held in the U.S.

China remains the biggest overseas holder of U.S. securities with $696.2 billion, up $14.3 billion from November. Japan is second with $578.3 billion, the report said, followed by the United Kingdom at $355 billion.

What can they do? What options do they have? Are they going to kick the door in and repo my Jag? ROTFL.

fred said...

baron ...

let me explain you this :

5000 years ago the first experiment of paper-money was done in china ...

in chinese , china is symbolized by a square crossed in the middle by a I, because the emperor of that time thought that china was the middle of the world ...

this money failed because this emperor was greedy enough to print as much as needed , on the pretext that "everybody wants to have trade with us " ...

you history repeat itself !

what would be better :

that everybody observe the same rules at the same time for the same reason !

i believe that the time where one could squeeze all others for its only benefits has come to an end ...

i hope so or we are all doomed !

Shane Price said...


In the year I've had the pleasure of being custodian of our blog I could have renamed it a dozen or more times. A few examples for your consideration:-

1. The First Amendment Defense Blog

2. The Friction Stir Welding Blog

3. Ken Meyer says Eclipse are fantastic Blog

4. Ken Meyer says the FPJ is fantastic but the company are crap Blog

5. The ex EAC employees Blog

6. "I'm a depositor, how come I was shafted" Blog

7. E5C, alternative Blog

8. "I'm a supplier, how come I was shafted" Blog

You get my drift.

Actually, one of things I think this blog manages very well is the seemingly endless ability to find it's way back to Eclipse.

Right now it's focused on the business aspect. But we've also had a big FIKI discussion in the past 24 hours, along with a series of 'why is the windshield heater collared' Q & A.

OK, maybe a lot of Q and very little A on that last subject, but interesting all the same.

What you DON'T see is the inbox. Some real gems in there, of which more later.

Right now I have a few meetings to do go.
Catch ya'll later.


eclipse_deep_throat said...

Baron said,
Why the heck would we want to put a stop to that? That is the best pyramid scam in the world going.

Who has the balls to put a stop to it?

LMFAO!!!! The stock market is moving between negative 240-270 as I type this and we are dangerously close to the November low of 7552 . China has at least 28 million unemployed last time I saw the news report on the subject; the US is at 4 million. Last week CNBC'c Becky Quick made the point that we need to "blow up" about 1 million homes sitting idle on the market. I suppose we need to do the same thing in the labor markets to eliminate millions of redundant labor around the globe...

The financial world is ALREADY putting a stop to our blatant misuse of financial power. They ARE doing this by withdrawing all FOREIGN capital from US banks, which means the US banks can't / won't underwrite our consumption. Can you refinance your house right now? If yes, you are the exception not the norm! With 28 million of its own people unemployed, do we really think China will keep buying US debt like nothing has changed? That is nuts! My crystal ball says they devalue the yuan soon to improve the relative position of THEIR exports against all others. With 70,000 factories in China closed over the last year, I'm betting on them to take actions that improve their self-interest before they do anything that might 'help' us. And if North Korea has any delusions of grandeur, do you really think the Chinese military needs OUR help? They buy our debt in order to gain access to our market, to put product on Wal-Mart shelves, not because they need our military. China is not Japan.

On the flip side, it would almost be funny to see the State of CA try to issue its own currency. If the Fed's keep messing this up, it wouldn't be all that surprising. It didn't help the Confederate States of America during the civil war since their fiat currency was eventually worthless by the end of the war ...LOL, and the 14th Ammendment refused to acknowledge or assume the debts of the southern states. Hmmmm, I wonder if they could try something similar today and prohibit any Federal obligation to the $42 billion in California debt; **I** sure as hell don't want to pay for their follies. Can the State of CA file for bankruptcy?? Guess they won't buy any EA500 jets any time soon .....nor anymore Toyota Prius cars.

No, they won't try to repossess the Jag you have now. But try buying or leasing a new one today and see what happens. I hear that even people with a perfect FICO score are being told to expect a $500-800 PER MONTH payment now. I know, I know, that doesn't jive with your recent Prius purchase. Consider that an outlier, not the norm.


eclipse_deep_throat said...

Fred said,
EDT, are you an economist ?

Um, I think I was in a past life. No one listened to me back then either!!


Dave Ivedorne said...

In the year I've had the pleasure of being custodian of our blog I could have renamed it a dozen or more times. A few examples for your consideration: ...

9. The New Mexico Navy ( Underwater Division ) Blog.

10. The Abnormal Psychology / Amateur Psychiatry Blog.

11. ( on the overnight ) The Fred and Julius Blog.

12. The I Am Not A Lawyer But ... Blog.


TBMs_R_Us said...

Like most Ponzi schemes, the US currency pyramid scheme can come crashing down once the dogs stop eating the dog food. When foreign governments decide that the dollar isn't such a good bet as it devalues, and they place their bet somewhere else, then the dollar crashes. The market for dollars seeks its own level with abundant supply and no demand. The free market can and will determine the value of it. The currency of a country deeply mired in debt, with a huge and growing balance of trade deficit, a government that can't shoot straight on economic matters (no matter whether it's Bush or Obama), locked-in (politically) government driven inflation (to finance things beyond our collective means, like social security), two wars backed by tax cuts -- this currency is the one the world is going to continue to support? Why? Because everyone wants to emulate our disaster?

The conditions that lead to the Bretton Woods agreement, where the US Dollar was designated The reserve currency of the world, no longer exist. The US economy no longer dominates the world; no longer are we the creditor nation with a gold backed currency. Now, we're a debtor nation with a fiat currency, falling further and further in debt with an ever weakening currency. Truly a position of strength (NOT).

Our present currency scheme is a 38 year old experiment (1971) which is failing. Next???

Black Tulip said...

To paraphrase H. L. Menken,

Economists like Puritans live with the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

bill e. goat said...

Was that guy in customer service at Eclipse ?

airtaximan said...

problem is, in a house of cards, one guy pulls his, and they all come down.

I would think, in the global market, everyone is in the same sort of boat. Perhaps China could pull a stunt, but I think the global retribution would be very damning.

I am impressed with how most major world markets have come to realize they need to bolster their economies, and stave off a "worse" global crisis. Is it working? WHo knows... it might be working to make things better than they would have been.

Is it going to work? In this I mean how bad will things get before they get better?

I ahve two ball, neither are crystal - so I refrain from predicting.

Just like EAC, I refrain from trying to anticipate how long before insane cash incineration actually stops.

You guys seem to know more about economics than me, and I like a simpler view.

We were riding too high, and we'll sink (ossilate) to the same level low.

How we meter this in the future, will be a real trick. I've seen some graphs where this wave has been getting bigger on the high and low side since 1930.

I do not know how you stop it. I am not sure its a good idea to try.

And yes, the major problem was funding 2 wars ith debt, and poor planning regarding that whole mess coupled with the downturn.

I believe the world will from now on, try to mitigate exposure to the US. Just a hunch that in a few months, when things begin to look a little better, someone begins to examine ways to moderate reliance on the US, especially the US banking system.

One final note: I do not see a wholesale impossibility to get financing for cars and homes - in fact, I think the range of people in trouble in below 10%.

Everyone is just sitting on the sidelines (consumers/investors/businesses), in case this becomes a 1030's type depression. Who wouldn't... you do not know where it will bottom out.

bill e. goat said...

"Like most Ponzi schemes, the US currency pyramid scheme can come crashing down..."

"problem is, in a house of cards, one guy pulls his, and they all come down."

Well, I think we've all wondered when the house (US financial system) will come crashing down.

But, I heard an interview a few weeks ago, someone in the state department, who said, yeah, that's a concern we've had for years about China (being able to pull strings in the US). But the reality is, the more of us they own, the less likely they are to want to see the US economy collapse*. Same with other nations we're indebted to.

(*I suppose they are even more interested in their own economies collapsing, so this argurement might only go so far...)

Sort of like the old Mutual Assured Destruction international policy- any malevolient action on anyone's part, and everyone looses.

That system did not seem very "stable" to me, mostly because it depended on rational and stable personalities. But it worked, or we got lucky- I'm not sure which- probably both.

I think we are in the same predicement with the global economy. And like the cold war, we just kept adding warheads ---I was going to say, this would make things less stable, but I guess I can't say for sure that it raised the risk, but it did raise the consequences, which some might argue lowered the risk.

But, rational actors (as far back as Prez Ike) tried to cut warhead count- I'd say it's up to rational actors now to reduce the deficits.

The sad reality is, like MAD, once the situation starts, it might be impossible to stop.

I'd liken our present situation to more of a limited excursion from status quo- but status quo isn't stationary- the waterline of the sinking ship keeps raising- I see us "bobbing up", but not able to stay afloat any longer. And history has shown once we "bob up", more tax cuts (which we politically CAN do something about) and ever increasing spending (which, politically, we CAN NOT do anything about- despite decades of rhetoric during my life time) will just make the hole in the ship larger, so our next excursion will be deeper. I am fairly confident we can handle this excursion, but I'm not so sure about the next one.

airsafetyman said...

"The Germans decide our interest rates and therefore control the economic output of the entire eurozone. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves."

The Germans are coming up with a new name for the 27 state Economic Union. Know what they want to call it?


bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

Well, maybe that was a little political- it wasn't meant to be- instead, it was posted as pure economics.
But, I decided to remove it anyway, to keep us "focused".

bill e. goat said...

To heck with it.
Here's the chart.
It's not posted for political purposes, so don't get riled up.
It's posted for economic purposes.
We're all big boys, if the nomenclature offends you, ignore the words, and just look at the picture (thats what I do :)
I hope our leaders are "looking at the picture" too.
Debt Increases

ea500s said...

Jet's broke, I'm bored, so lets play a little game.

Eclipse driver extordinare Ken needs to fly from Chino to Reno this afternoon. But his jet is not approved for flight into known icing. Radar, airment, pireps and 6 hour icing charts are linked below.

Ok bloggers, so what's the deal, is Ken's plane going to be the little jet that could or the little jet that could't. All bloggers are invited to play. but lets keep it on topic icing only.

Icing Airment



6 hour forecast one to five thousand

6 hour forecast five to ten thousand

6 hour forecast ten to fifteen thousand

6 hour forecast fifteen to twenty thousand

bill e. goat said...

1) The question you are asking is:
whether the Eclipse could do it versus a Mustang.

I would say, a better question in the bigger picture is:
2) Should you do it in a 30 year old C340 versus could you do it in an Eclipse.

The answers to question 1 are not applicable to question 2- the questions are different.

bill e. goat said...

Thanks for posting the links to the weather- I think we're all more keen observers of it lately- I know I am.

Hopefully, this will keep us all safer too.

Dave Ivedorne said...

One final note: I do not see a wholesale impossibility to get financing for cars and homes - in fact, I think the range of people in trouble in below 10%.

I think you underestimate - either that, or are using a different definition of "in trouble" than I am. I think the range of people who are at risk of losing their homes in the near term exceeds 10%.

Go back a couple of years. There was a small percentage of the population that absolutely could not get financing for a car or a first home. I'm just going to guess that that number is five times higher right now ( moreso for cars than homes, but I'm no expert ). Okay, I'll stop pulling numbers out of my ass.

I'm in the business of servicing a ubiquitous type of durable good, and have noticed that I'm being asked to repair stuff that I wouldn't even have seen two years ago - when something that old breaks, two years ago you just replaced it. And if you didn't have the cash on hand, equipment manufacturers offered cheap ( often free ), easy financing. Today I spoke with my "partner" in the "replace it" portion of the industry - the bottom has fallen out. Turnover is down 80%, and what work he does get is at little or no profit. He's cut staff by 2/3rds, and the people left are not consistently working full time. I could go on & on, but there's actually a point in here that's relevant to the prospects of the Little Bird Of Dreams Company in ABQ...

I've been saving up for an airplane for a number of years now. A few years back ( and behind my back ), my wife "pre-qualified" us to finance one - which I refused to consider based on an "if I can't afford to lose it, I can't afford it" approach to luxury goods [1]. We "qualified" for an FPJ or Mustang at that time - if we wanted to be irrational about such things.

Despite having weathered the stock market crash pretty freaking well, and business being great in my little niche ( for now ), I could not conceive of that still being the case. I'd guess it's now a case of Skylane/SR20, no problem; FPJ or Mustang, no way.

What portion of Eclipse's order book was made up of the irrational version of me? ( I say "irrational" for context, not to characterize somebody whose finances resemble mine, but was determined to follow their dreams through Albuquerque. ) And how might that affect RP's ability to raise money at this time?

Credit is tight right now - unless you don't need it.

[1] - Besides which, I'm perfectly happy with the rental options available to me. A wise man once said, "Airplanes are like women. Below a certain level of utilization, they're a whole lot cheaper to rent than own".

Pull up to the couch - you'll be sleeping on it tonight,

baron95 said...

Just ask yourselves this question.

If you had lent/invested in Eclipse, Lehman or Fannie Mae or Lehman, what would you end up with?

See, being a creditor sucks when things go bad.

Did you read a few posts above?

Foreign governments and private investors in December purchased a net total of $34.8 billion in long-term securities held in the U.S.

China remains the biggest overseas holder of U.S. securities with $696.2 billion, up $14.3 billion from November. Japan is second with $578.3 billion, the report said, followed by the United Kingdom at $355 billion.

The only hope for these countries to recoup their "loans" from us is to keep on pumping more and more money. Just like ETIRC/Roel/Mann have been doing/are trying to do with Eclipse.

The second they stop, they lose everything.

China, Russia, Germany, Japan, UK have a vested interest in continuing to prop up the US$ and our notes/bonds. The pain that they'd go through if they stop will make the current recession feel like boom.

baron95 said...

EA500, what is the big deal with your problem? There is no forecast icing in the climb in the LA area or the descent in Reno. In between the EA500 would clearly be on top.

Am I missing something. Looks like a flyable mission (though I confess I didn't look closely at the forecast/charts).

And even if it were not, what is your point? That there are some mission, some days that are not flyable? Particularly a day where the weather in CA is making the national news for wickedness?

Dave said...

The only hope for these countries to recoup their "loans" from us is to keep on pumping more and more money. Just like ETIRC/Roel/Mann have been doing/are trying to do with Eclipse.

The second they stop, they lose everything.

China, Russia, Germany, Japan, UK have a vested interest in continuing to prop up the US$ and our notes/bonds. The pain that they'd go through if they stop will make the current recession feel like boom.

Baron by equating our economy to investing in Eclipse, you've done a very good job in getting me worried about our economy.

bill e. goat said...

I accept your analogy as perfectly correct.
(!! We agree !! :)

And, I agree with your proposition that they will indeed continue to prop us up, like Mr. Mann continued to prop up Eclipse.

But Eclipse eventually had to file BK.

Many are suggesting that is the most prudent thing for the US to do, and start over with a clean slate.

I don't think that will work without dramatic consequences. But like Eclipse, it just can't keep going on forever. Either

1) We do indeed reach a "turn around" point, and start paying down the debt
2) Other countries come to the conclusion they are throwing good money after bad, and decide to "go with the hurt" now, rather than "go with the worse hurt" later.

Option 2 is the financial doomsday scenario- BK on their terms, instead of ours.

Your thoughts?

Ken Meyer said...

EA500S--are you familiar with the new definitions of "known icing" and "known icing conditions" recently put out by the FAA Chief Counsel? The FAA has backed away from the previous definition of known icing conditions based upon visible moisture and cold temperatures.

Here is a portion of that interpretation that contains all the information one needs to make the determination of whether a flight is appropriate in a non-FIKI aircraft:

"Pilots should also carefully evaluate all the available meteorological information available for a proposed flight...If the composite information indicates to a reasonable and prudent pilot that he or she will be operating the aircraft under conditions that will cause ice to adhere to the aircraft along the proposed route and altitude of flight, then known icing conditions exist. If the pilot operates the aircraft in known icing conditions contrary to the requirements of FAR 91.9(a), the FAA may take enforcement action...

"...flight which results in the formation of ice on an aircraft is not the sole factor the FAA will use in determining whether enforcement action is warranted in any particular case. In determining whether enforcement action is warranted, the FAA will evaluate those actions taken by the pilot (including both pre-flight actions and those taken during the flight) to determine if the pilot's actions were, in fact, reasonable in light of FAR 91.9(a), 91.13(a), and 91.103. The FAA will specifically evaluate all weather informatoin available to the pilot and determine whether the pilot's pre-flight planning took into account the possibility of ice formation, alternative courses of action to avoid known icing conditions and, if ice actually formed on the aircraft, what steps were taken by the pilot to exit those conditions."


baron95 said...

And EA500, since your question was to Ken's personal situation, with the assumption he paid about $1M give or take for his EA500, the question would be:

If Ken had to fly that mission (your premise) what new plane he could have acquired in late 2007/early 2008 for about $1M would he be safer in? A Malibu? A Seneca?


TBMs_R_Us said...

The second they stop, they lose everything.

You make it sound as though their economic well being depends on us, and on their investment in US bonds of part of their SURPLUS trade account funds.

Get real, they could write off the $700B and not even notice it. They actually PRODUCE stuff, and they actually SAVE, unlike the US.

Wow, this is simply the greatest strategy for a country I've ever heard: The rest of the world will keep on financing a losing proposition because it's a losing proposition, and propping it up is better than facing reality. With those beliefs, our nation can go a long way and be really prosperous.

Buying an Eclipse makes more sense than that!

bill e. goat said...

Yes, thanks for modernizing my list of options.
(No slight on the Cessna 340 at all).

baron95 said...

Eastern Europe triggers rush for safety of US Dollar and Bonds

Financial Times Published: February 17 2009 21:58 | Last updated: February 17 2009 21:58

Fears of banking turmoil in eastern Europe caused global investors to rush for safety on Tuesday, with warnings about European financial institutions provoking a stampede into the dollar and US bonds.

When would it stop, please, please stop buying our currency and our bonds. You are spoiling us.

Please buy a piece of useless yellow metal with totally made up value that can be dug out of the ground at will. It is sooooo much safer. Help us, please, please.

airtaximan said...

well, actually the point of my post on this subject was:

"The rest of the world will keep on financing a losing proposition because it's a losing proposition, and propping it up is better than facing reality. With those beliefs, our nation can go a long way and be really prosperous."


IMO, eventually the music stops, and someone is running out of the lake looking for their underwear...

airtaximan said...


well, actually, we do not know the answer, becasue NO ONE knows how UNsafe the EA50 is.

No one.

TBMs_R_Us said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TBMs_R_Us said...

Or, for another flavor:

Gold rises to seven-month high on flight to safety

airtaximan said...

the funniest thing about this whole GOLD vs US dollar argument, is:


Its like arguing about which music to play, in a game of musical chairs.... it doesn't matter one bit as long as everyone agrees to get up and walk around while the music plays, and try to find a seat when the music stops.

Same damn thing.

Dave Ivedorne said...

Please buy a piece of useless yellow metal with totally made up value that can be dug out of the ground at will.

I thought zinc chromate primer was green, not yellow.

Wait, you're still talking Eclipse, right?


baron95 said...

Exactly right ATM.

Dig more gold out of the ground or issue more notes/bonds. Same principle.

baron95 said...

Except one is a lot more messy and polluting and less "green" than the other. ;)

ea500s said...

Barron95 I think you are missing the whole point of my post. This was not and is not an attack on Ken or the Eclipse so your reference to what is my problem is not really valid.

My motivation for posting this is to help bring awareness to others, to spark discussion and to possibly learn something here that may make us safer and more aware aviators. Rather then attack others for having opinions that don't necessary agree with yours. I posed a simple question and to make it fun I selected Ken to be an example of a typical pilot being "reasonably prudent" about whether or not known icing conditions exist. Ken at least gets it in that he is sort of on the right track by knowing and understanding the FAA's interpretation of known icing.
I will even concede that known icing exists under the new interpretation of the FAA, but my question remains, can Ken legally fly his Eclipse from Chino to Reno based upon the current conditions that existed at the time of my original post. Ken, dig a little deeper here you are very close to the answer :)

baron95 said...

Good one DI.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...


I am not a member of the Ad Hoc comittee. Do I necessairly have to be to recieve your updates on the status of the company?

airtaximan said...


funniest post on this blog by FAR!!!

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Seems like you guys don't know shit at this point. I am sick of shanes doom and gloom bullshit.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


Would you say that RP's failure to close on the CH11-363 sale for a month now is other than doom and gloom?

How would you characterize it?

airtaximan said...

neither do you... and you own one of those darn things...

airtaximan said...


I can only imagine how comfortable it must be to have to rely on...

Dave said...

Seems like you guys don't know shit at this point

So you're saying the Bradley group is lying in their legal filings?

Ken Meyer said...

EclipsePilotOMSIV asked, "I am not a member of the Ad Hoc comittee. Do I necessairly have to be to recieve your updates on the status of the company?"

Yes; the Ad Hoc Committee's regular updates are only going out to those who joined.

However...there is much going on, and, as an owner, we're counting on your participation--you can and should be a part of what comes next. Email me at for more.


airtaximan said...

"we're counting on your participation"

OH Brother... no wonder Ken and Vern were so close...

Dave, I must have missed something - what is Bradley saying?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Just throw good money after bad, that's the ticket.

OMFG, you have to be kidding me.

Who could this be??? said...


Any view on this:

"We're not talking days or weeks, we're talking *months*. As in 36% of EA500s haven't flown in 90 days or longer.

I gather you feel there isn't an AOG problem, and lack of FIKI isn't an issue, then what do you make of it?


ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Omsiv, I believe I can save you some money.

Whether or not you join Brother Ken and the remaining faithful, you can and will be a part of what comes next. The only difference is how much it costs you to learn next to nothing.

And to all the faithful out there once again dreaming of owning the dream factory - remember, how do you make a small fortune in aviation?

Start with a big one, or combine a bunch of small ones into a big one.

TBMs_R_Us said...


"made up price" Made up by who? What happened to your belief in markets setting prices? What does that price actually mean? You can trade dollars for it. Hmmmmm.

Dave said...

Dave, I must have missed something - what is Bradley saying?

The Bradley Group talks about all the insider dealings Roel did and how much he stonewalled in discovery. It documents how Roel is trying to buy Eclipse with money he owes to Eclipse - we knew this general, but the filings detail the specifics.

airtaximan said...

just in case anyone missed this little advert for the EAC promoters club.

airtaximan said...


have they filed a suit?

bill e. goat said...

"I am sick of shanes doom and gloom bullshit."

Me too.

Shane, please stop sugar coating things.

Dave Ivedorne said...

Seems like you guys don't know shit at this point.

I do know that Eclipse is on the 'POINTY' end of a John Doe lawsuit ( those of us with PACER accounts can just check the BK docket ):

Docket 09-50109
In re:
et al.,
(Jointly Administered)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
and JOHN DOE 1 THROUGH 1,000,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x


17. In 2002, the Plaintiffs entered into an agreement with Eclipse for the purchase of
an Eclipse 500 Aircraft (the “Agreement”). Pursuant to the Agreement, the Plaintiffs provided
Eclipse with initial deposits of $75,000, which was to be held in escrow pending the
development and production of the E500 aircraft (the “Initial Deposit”). Upon information and
belief, the Initial Deposit was disbursed to Eclipse prior to the Petition Date, under the terms of
the Agreement, when the Debtors reached certain benchmarks in production of the aircraft.

18. By letter dated June 6, 2008, Eclipse notified the Plaintiffs that the purchase price
for the E500 aircraft had increased substantially. This price increase constituted a “refund event”
under the terms of the Agreement, which entitled the Plaintiffs, at their election, to a return of
their $75,000 deposit.

19. On June 11, 2008, Eclipse sent an email to one or both of the Plaintiffs, offering
“the opportunity to move into one of the 16 . . . aircraft positions to be delivered between
October and December of 2008.” The email message further stated:

Eclipse Aviation recently announced an increase in the price of the Eclipse
500®. Customers who have not paid their 60 percent milestone deposit are
affected by this increase. However, customers who successfully move up to a
2008 aircraft through this special offer will not be subject to the price increase.

You are eligible to secure one of the 16 delivery positions if you are scheduled to
receive your aircraft in 2009 or beyond. This offer is open only to customers who
have not been invoiced or paid for their 60 percent milestone deposit. Please note
that all customers scheduled for a delivery in 2008 have been invoiced. The
customers that took advantage of our December 2007 price offer are not eligible
to participate.

If you are interested in this limited-time offer, the process is simple. Eclipse
Aviation will assign the 16 positions, which start in October 2008, on a “firstdeposited,
first-served” basis. Because milestone deposits paid to date have been
at least $700,000, we require that any customer interested in this offer fund an
additional $650,000 toward one of these positions. The remaining balance can
then be paid at aircraft delivery. If more than 16 customers fund the required
deposit, Eclipse Aviation will promptly return the $650,000 deposit in full to
those customers who did not fund in time and they will retain their current
( my emphasis - DI ). Partial deposits will not be allocated toward any delivery position.

A true and correct copy of this email message (the “June Email”) is attached hereto as Exhibit A.

20. On information and belief, the June Email was intended by Eclipse to induce the
Plaintiffs: (i) not to request a refund of their Initial Deposit in the amount of $75,000, and (ii) to
advance additional cash of no less than $650,000 to Eclipse.

21. On information and belief, the email contained material misstatements, Eclipse
knew of such material misstatements, and Eclipse intended to deceive and defraud the Plaintiffs
through such misstatements.

22. Specifically, on information and belief, Eclipse never intended to give the
Plaintiffs one of the purported sixteen “aircraft positions to be delivered between October and
December of 2008,” and never intended to “promptly return the $650,000 deposit in full to those
customers who did not fund in time.”

23. In good faith and in reliance on the accuracy of the representations set forth in the
June 11 Email, the Plaintiffs promptly paid the Deposit via wire transfer in the amount of

24. Thereafter, Eclipse informed the Plaintiffs that they were not one of the first
sixteen customers to make the $650,000 deposit and were not eligible to purchase one of the
sixteen E500 aircraft.

25. In late June 2008, Eclipse and the Plaintiffs discussed the possibility of apply the
Deposit toward an E500 aircraft to be delivered in 2009, but no agreement was reached.

26. In July 2008, the Plaintiffs sought a refund, but received the “wrong paperwork”
from Eclipse for a refund of the Deposit.

27. Despite subsequent inquiries and requests for return of the Deposit, to date, the
Plaintiffs have not obtained a refund of the Deposit.

28. On information and belief, as of the Petition Date, Eclipse was holding the
Deposit or the proceeds thereof in an amount of no less than $650,000.

29. The Deposit is not property of the estate and must be returned to the Plaintiffs.

First Cause of Action
( Fraud )
( against Eclipse )

30. Each of the foregoing paragraphs is incorporated herein by reference.

31. On information and belief, as discussed above, the June 11 Email (attached hereto
as Exhibit A) contained material misstatements and false representations by Eclipse and was
intended by Eclipse to induce the Plaintiffs: (i) not to request a refund of their Initial Deposit in
the amount of $75,000, and (ii) to advance at least $650,000 of additional cash to Eclipse.

32. On information and belief, Eclipse knew of the falsity of its statements and
representations, and intended to deceive and defraud the Plaintiffs through such material
misstatements and false representations.

33. The Plaintiffs justifiably relied upon Eclipse’s statements and representations
without knowledge of their falsity or Eclipse’s intent to deceive and defraud the Plaintiffs.

34. As a result of the foregoing, the Plaintiffs have been damaged in an amount of no
less than $650,000 to be determined at trial.

Second Cause of Action
( Conversion )
( against Eclipse )

35. Each of the foregoing paragraphs is incorporated herein by reference.

36. Under the terms of the offer set forth in the June 11 Email, the Deposit was to be
returned “promptly” and “in full” to offerees who wire transferred funds but were not one of the
first sixteen to do so. See Exhibit A.

37. Eclipse asserted that the Plaintiffs were not among the first sixteen offerees to
deposit the required $650,000.

38. Eclipse has failed or refused to remit the Deposit to the Plaintiffs.

39. The Deposit was never Eclipse’s property, and at all times after the Plaintiffs wire
transferred the Deposit to Eclipse, the Deposit was being held in trust by Eclipse for the
Plaintiffs, pending its return to the Plaintiffs.
40. By failing or refusing to remit the Deposit to the Plaintiffs, Eclipse has retained
possession of the Deposit without authorization.

41. By failing or refusing to remit the Deposit to the Plaintiffs, Eclipse has unlawfully
exercised dominion or a right of ownership over property belonging to the Plaintiffs.

42. Eclipse’s acts to use, control, encumber, transfer, and/or subject the Deposit to the
competing claims of creditors and noteholders, including the other Defendants, constitute
attempts to unlawfully convert property owned by the Plaintiffs, which damages the Plaintiffs.

Irony's a bitch, no?


bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave Ivedorne said...

Seems like you guys don't know shit at this point.

I know that this afternoon's BK hearing was cancelled. Seems EAC withdrew it's application to retain and employ KPMG LLC as Auditors and Accountants to the Debtors a few days ago.

What do you know, EclipseBagholderOMFG?


bill e. goat said...

Dave I.,
"I thought zinc chromate primer was green, not yellow."

No offense to our owners friends, but THAT is clever :)
(I tried to think of that, but couldn't put it together- jolly good show!)
"Please buy a piece of useless yellow metal with totally made up value that can be dug out of the grounf at will. It is sooooo much safer. Help us, please, please."

I find when I feel nervous and anxious, holding my pet rock (brick) calms me down and soothes the stress out of the day.

And if that doesn't work, I throw it at somebody.
First Cause of Action (Fraud )
Second Cause of Action (Conversion)

Well- it is ABOUT time !!!
I would remind our gentle readers/bloggers that:
1) It is ill advice to throw pet rocks, or bricks, if you live in a glass house
2) you can't squeeze blood out of a (pet) rock. Or a brick.
You CAN try squeezing blood out of Wedge's brain, but being the size of a thimble, and density of a rock, I doubt if it's worth the effort.
On the other hand, it might be fun to put him in a glass house.
Or the "big house".

Anonymous said...

Ken wrote ... Yes; the Ad Hoc Committee's regular updates are only going out to those who joined.

We know that you (reported to have) signed an NDA.

Did every member of the Ad Hoc sign an EAC generated NDA as well?

Anonymous said...

Gadfly -

Are you available to do a "random" opinion and perspective survey at ABQ tomorrow?

No news is no news ... and that is not good for those employees desparately needing to hear something.

Folks should demand this week's pay in cash ... or get to the bank immediately to ensure there is ETIRC gold backing the EAC paper.

Dave Ivedorne said...

If more than 16 customers fund the required deposit, Eclipse Aviation will promptly return the $650,000 deposit in full to those customers who did not fund in time.

I fully expect Eclipse's response to be along the lines of the Mike Tyson Defense: "Anybody who is aware of our history would know that our definition of 'promptly' - especially when it comes to their money - is 'when we feel like it, if we feel like it'".

Pay at the first window ( if you feel like it ),

gadfly said...


My information comes in bits and pieces . . . usually long after the fact. I have no sources of whom I can get direct information. And in all the time I have watched the events unfold, I have only spoken “eyeball to eyeball” with two individuals that were inside the organization . . . the most recent was many weeks ago. (In that case, we spoke of the low quality of the work being done . . . confirming my earlier opinions that the engineering staff did not know how to design and build tooling that would be free of twisting/flexing/variations, etc.)

The rest of my information, specifically about the finances, is purely anecdotal . . . with stories from supply companies whose customers were not being paid by Eclipse.

In Albuquerque, most important information “comes in the door” by being patient. And this method will do little to satisfy the needs of the employees, this week or next. And, believe it or not, my work-days are full . . . retirement has “passed me by”.


(‘Best guess is that Eclipse will only pay suppliers “just enough” to get a few more parts, without coming forward to pay any invoices, complete. And by the same token, they will probably string along employees . . . just enough to keep them hanging . . . “better a little” than nothing. It’s an old trick, but seems to work with some.)

baron95 said...

TBM - short hand misspeak. Long version is that the price of gold is based on a artificial desirability factor that is subject to fluctuations based on tastes. Yes, there are a few industrial uses for gold and diamonds. But the price for gold and diamonds can fluctuate wildly based on fashion, desires, whims. Not a very good commodity to tie your currency to.

Look at oil. Something that should have a purely industrial/utility price. Yet in 2 years it went from $35 to $145 and back down to $35. You can argue that oil is probably the best commodity to tie a currency to. Can you imagine the dislocation with swings like that.

Totally silly to tie currencies to oil, let alone gold.

Yes TBM - the market dictates the price. But for the US$, I want as wide a market as possible, where multiple companies and nations bid vigorously bid the price of the US$ up or down.

I don't want it tied to a single commodity. Least of which one whose value is based primarily on "desire" and constricted supply, not utility.

In short, a "made-up price".

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Dave I,

Good big of reseach to find that fraud suite against EAC.

I bet that reaming left stretch marks.

Some of the Wedge's team really had talent, unfortunately of the Enron variety.

fred said...

yes , baron ...

BUT if we are to agree on your "made-up price"

you will have to agree that THEN USA richness is a "made up " one ...

others sweat , you print and consume ...
what i hear from different places in our world is that less and less "population" see anything good in theirs politicos and bankers sending the fruit of theirs labor for "just" printed paper ...

like Germany is now thinking about NOT sending any "sweat-produced" to any country NOT part of E.U. ...

stupid ? not that much , as stated by Monsieur Shane , Germany (by the strength of its eco.) can more or less dictate the way things are evolving into E.U. , not out of it !

Germany is the SECOND biggest investor in USA (in term of capital , dev. , etc...)

and Germany can swap for China : instead of "goods against papers" it would be "goods against others goods "
not as " supposed to be good" as before , but between headache and plague , what would you decide ?

Forget about the U.K , they are only copying your deed , but since they carry their own problems for a longer time , it is only worse ...(the U.K. Eco. is even more relying on the same collapsing items than USA ...)

i've heard noises and sound coming from a Gulf-country who nearly bought a US-bank , not long ago : "they are f@^##gly annoyed by all the cash that has been WASTED since they came in ...." it occurs nothing real good , i guess

and 34Billions of long-term-papers have been bought ...
yes BUT :

it doesn't even cover the trade deficit of the same period !
so it is a status-quo , nothing else , nothing to really applause ... (where you will need XXX time more to make situation just "look" better ....)

yes Gold isn't the best system , the best system remain to be invented ...

Economy is mainly a story of "BALANCE" that has to be found with conflicting arguments and conflicting feelings ...

i guess the said balance has been corrupted when foreigners found out that all the "Value and Richness" proposed and shown as a guarantee of final payment by USA was faked , over-valuated and a proof that the balance is now voided by :

* the subprimes : now not a single person Abroad having a TV cannot say that he doesn't know that in USA if you are poor (less than 1M$ per year) , the banks will help you ONLY to become even POORER by lending you foreign money to buy over-priced anything for the only benefits of very few inside USA , foreigners and banks themselves ...

*the 2 or 3 Trillions which are needed to maintain the US Banks afloat ...

* the 787 Billions recovery plan :while it can be evident to anyone that this is fake money (newly printed notes , if you prefer) , it only say this to foreigners "We , the peoples of US of A represented by our elected ones , hereby acknowledge that our Country and Economy has been so badly managed in the last few years (decades?) that we have no other choice than to make it public , we desperately need to : try to have decent school , try to have decent roads , try to have decent health-system , try to have ...., try to have ... , etc...etc...etc... so help us God , this time we really need it ..."

the balance has been corrupted ...
confidence is gone ...
do not expect too much from others (at least NOT more of what you can expect from yourself ...)

would you trust Politicos would can set the speed of the printing-machines as they want ?

or would you trust a little bit more something than you can hold ,knowing that wherever you go , you can exchange it ...
(even if in that $paper is probably , you can start a fire with , not with gold ....! ;-) )

not forgetting that almost everybody on earth NOW knows that USA is the place where all theirs "sweat-fruit" was send and therefor a good reason for their own misery-state ...

it is a misleading statement , but Politicos abroad are and will be SO happy to use it to deflect the blame on somebody else ...
(when i was in Morocco few weeks ago , not a single one older than 6 wasn't saying anything else than this :" it is crisis and misery ! Bush and USA are responsible !" )

voiding the "good old " agreement USA had in past , therefor voiding your theory of "IF they stop , they loose all previous ..."

remember : politicos will betray you as soon as they see it fit ! someone has to be the scapegoat !
(not you , billy ! ;-) )

FreedomsJamtarts said...

I once long ago (~1990) came in contact with the timeshare industry, and remember the argument for fleecing the prospects was that the advertising was targeted and optimised that only greedy, impulsive people show up for the presentations.

There was an attitude of "if they are greedy, impulsive people, and have enough wealth to buy the crap product, then better get their money quick, because the next salesman definitely will."

It was a very predatory environment.

The people I met who were involved in that industry would have had a field day with the Ecorpse customer list.

How does a guy get to have enough money to put up $725K on a toy without having enough business sense to put at least the $650K into Escrow (since by then the warning signs were all on the wall)? How do you get to have $775K of fluff money without having a lawyer, and a tax accountant who can advise you on these basics?

With the general speeding up of innovation, it seems "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations" is heading towards "broke to riches to broke in three years".

fred said...

bonjour , freedom ...

yes , it always amazed me to see how efficient EAC was to find gullible ones ..!

if they would have been only a tenth as good as to produce anything ...

Fpj would be such an amazing plane !

you see , there is nothing new or "disruptive" in this , still the old "too much confidence kills the confidence !"

just sad that too many fell in the trap !

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Hi Fred,

Has anyone else noticed that the standard financial units are now Trillions and Billions?

I remember when a Billion was a big number but now it's just cents to the Trillion!.

The US bail out plan is 787 Billion in some media, but 789 billion in the economist. Since when was $2 000 000 000 a rounding error?

I don't see where the increased accountablity should come from at present.

fred said...

ohhh yes ...

i noticed !

to the point that i feel it deserve the clarity of the speech about economy ...
when average Joe hear that a trader has played and lost 50 Billions = no wonder why some if not most feel dizzy ...!

i experienced myself 2 weeks ago the same , with a colleague we were on our way to the Atlantic Ocean by car , when we stopped in a very tiny village , in the local pub to have a coffee ...

the TV was on and it was news , they were saying thing about Zimbabwe and its rate ...

so naturally , my colleague said something as a joke about the few hundreds % inflation raise its value every days ...

the woman serving at the bar asked us a simple question " How is that possible that a said money may loose more than 100% in a single day ?"

so the guy tried to explain this "mystery" ...

the woman couldn't understand , so i tried by explaining that we are in a very crazy world in a time even more crazy ...
I happen to say something about Trillions , the woman starred at me and asked me "what is this ?" so i explained again with a pen and a paper ...

her conclusion was perfectly right , i must say that i really like when "Normal" peoples can put peoples having a rounding mistake of 2B , straight in their own shoes ....

she said : " you are all completely nuts !! " ;-))

Shane Price said...

Anyone else notice this?

With the exception of the 'sale announcement' all the Eclipse Aviation press releases have been deleted from the web site.

I first noticed this a few weeks ago, thought it strange and waited to see if it changed.

But, as you can see, it's still blank.

Anyone got any ideas why 'they' did this?


FreedomsJamtarts said...

I saw a post that a court appointment due a couple of days ago was postponed.

When is the next BK Court appointment?

I can't imagine the judge just sitting back and waiting till something does or doesn't happen?

Can Dave or Baron or someone else with experience in this area give us a bit of an idea what happens next in a Ch 363 if:

1/ The tooth fairey brings Roel the loot, or

2/ The tooth fairey stays home, protecting her assets.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

I would have thought Eclipse would have tried to clean out this media stuff earlier.

There are loaded guns in these earlier press releases, as we can see from the fraud suite brought by the guy who is trying to get his $650K back based on public and private statemetns from Ecorpse.

Black Tulip said...


Regarding the removal of Eclipse press releases, this is a new government edict. The Democratic administration under President Obama has decreed that any reference to failed policies and unsuccessful programs during the Bush era be erased from public consciousness. Thus we are better prepared for a bright new tomorrow.

fred said...


are you going to wipe-out the entire 8 last years ?? ;-)

in the case of Ecorpse , if they did such a move for preventing use of statements , it would only show a little more theirs amateurish status .... (if any had still any doubts ?)

there is plenty of "way-back machines" on the internet , where anything needed can be tracked ...!

fred said...

if any needs :*/

bill e. goat said...

I hope the failed practices of the last 8 years are erased from public consciousness as well as public policy.

Now if we could just erase the $5T in additional debt accumulated in the past 8 years...somehow, I don't think that left us "better prepared for a bright new tomorrow".

bill e. goat said...

...but numbers are so...complicated.

Let's just say I'll feel better if we don't double the national debt.

FlightCenter said...


I should have mentioned that the crazed windshields resulting from the improper duty cycle of the windshield heat was observed on E500 aircraft prior to the delivery of the first E500.

It was one of many reasons for the delay of the first E500 deliveries.

It is also a reasonable answer to ATM's question as to why windshield heat wasn't approved as part of the original TC.

Dave Ivedorne said...

When is the next BK Court appointment?

At this time, it appears that no hearings are scheduled. There are a handful of objection deadlines that hit in the next week and a half ( the one I checked out was an application for compensation & reimbursement of expenses for December by Lead Counsel for the Unsecured Creditors' Committee ).

I can't imagine the judge just sitting back and waiting till something does or doesn't happen?

Hard to say. It's not as if a Delaware BK Judge isn't backed up with non-Eclipse cases. The other case I've been watching has been dragging on for well over a year now, with no end in sight.

Moving forward is really up to the parties at this point. RP tried to ram it through quickly so's nobody'd notice, early in the game. Now, pretty much anything goes.

The DIP funds are pretty certainly dried up, so maintaining the appearance of a going concern becomes problematic. I don't think it'll take too long before the number '7' starts crossing Judge Walrath's desk.

But mind you, I'm not even a fake lawyer, never mind a real one specializing in bankruptcy proceedings.

Would you like that popcorn buttered?

airtaximan said...


Thanks, makes sense. Strange, this is unknown to Ken who seems more knowledgable than most...

I was asking an innocent uestion, becasue it just seemed very strange to me...I have no inside scoop... just thinking and asking.

Looking back on the string of answers, you can see the various "thinking" on this. Again, some just blind faith in a company that deserves none, IMO.

Known cracking winshield peoblems, exacerbated by windshield heat, kep a secret, resulting in users stating the heat works fine, and admitting some have been know to turn it on, eventhough it is not properly certified and collared for safety reasons.

One interpretation is that if the heat is always on, the windscreens are more suple and more resisteant to birdstrikes... and omits the that it also cases windhield cracking.

I know someone is going to say this problem is long past... or now, under FIKFI its been certified... BUT this remains an example of my concern with EAC all along.

They hide important safety related issues. A little thing like collared windshield heat was never even explained? Why not?

I guess embarassement that the windshields crack when the heat is on?

Not worth the potential hazard, IMO. Actualy, the whole plane is not...IMO.

fred said...

oh yeah Dave I.

i would guess that IF DIP isn't fat enough to meet Mrs pay-roll , we may end-up with a funny situation :

everybody squeezed + what is left of employees suing the Bod or the CEO ...

interesting times , indeed ...

airtaximan said...

I wonder if AL MAnn detrimentally relied on RP and provided the DIP financing based on false claims RP had the Russian money?

airtaximan said...


thanks for the low down on the fraud suit.

I just do not see the irony, though. I see the tip of a berg

Anonymous said...

Freedom wrote … When is the next BK Court appointment? I can't imagine the judge just sitting back and waiting till something does or doesn't happen? Can Dave or Baron or someone else with experience in this area give us a bit of an idea what happens next in a Ch 363 …

The routine admin hearing scheduled for Tuesday was canceled because the three agenda items had either been resolved or deferred.

EAC no longer needs KPMG as an additional auditor/accountant, as they already have a retained accounting firm, are paying Greenhill Financial big bucks to sell the company, and the various other creditor committees have attorneys and financial advisors capable of auditing the process.

The response date on the Vermeer Manufacturing action has been extended to next week, so a hearing this week was unnecessary.

From the record, Vermeer asserts that their airplane that was on static display in Oshkosh as the “first production NG 1.6 FIKI aircraft” has been flying for months and therefore is not part of the PLG/WIP, but rather a finished aircraft that should be delivered along with Gulf Coast’s SN 260 at closing.

The Judge will not (likely) act if one of the parties does not approach the Court. It is not their role to handhold the parties, but the will hold counsel accountable to act in the best interest of the estate within the law.

If the money arrives, the sale closes and everyone exclaims “WedgeCo is Dead … Long Live WedgeskiCo”

If the money doesn’t arrive, or if the two disinterested members of the Eclipse BoD have lost confidence in RP, the Debtors convert the process to Chapter 7.

All the existing adversary actions then run their course, along with likely suits against ETIRC, RP, etc. as entities separate from Eclipse

Jackrabbit said...

Gold Standard - Fiat currency.
There are valid reasons for not tying a currency to gold. Floating currencies allow countries to have policy flexibility and continuous (smoother) adjustments. It is difficult to do justice to this subject in a few blog posts.

US as the world's reserve currency
The US$ enjoys this privileged position because of a complicated mix of technology leadership, large internal market, legal and market structures, and stability (civil and military). While there has been some talk about replacing the US$ by a basket of currencies, the recent flights to the US$ demonstrate the the US$ is still viewed by the markets as the safest store of value.

Neither Policy makers nor ordinary people in the US are blind to the harm done to the US reputation by Bush, Madoff, subprime, etc. And while the many warnings about things like the low US savings rate and high trade deficit and other structural problems were ignored for a long time, the current crisis has prompted a re-evaluation and the political will to make some much needed changes.

We have a BIG problem that is measured in Trillions but that should be put into perspective. US GDP is over $15 TRILLION. And borrowing, and/or printing money (= incur inflation) allows us to work out the problem over several years instead of incurring a massive disruption all at once. It is not the same kind of borrowing that got us into this mess.

fred said...

jack ...

i am sorry to point this out :

15T GDP ?

ouucch !

you have first to believe statistics ...
which i believe are grossly worked-out !!!

something around 10/12 would seems to be closer to reality (if it exists !)

don't forget the part meant by consumerism , which represent at the same time a chunk of the problem , the cure and a big chunk of why it did happen to be like it is now ....

fred said...

even if you are right on the nature of this problems ...

they are really extremely inter-dependent ...

i would think that a basket of currencies would be the best solution until the US have fixed their problems ...

off-course , it would mean a revolution-like in the USA ...

no more "buying what you don't need with money you don't have "

Back to savings

Complete end of Politicos-cow-boys

and , probably the most problematic = giving-up all that bad habits linked with the "advantage of having $" ...

without succeeding in those is only to put a plaster on a wooden leg ...

as soon as things will be better , a politicos will promise you the moon ... for free ...!

and more than 50% of voting persons would agree = it is so nice to be acknowledge as a "special one" ...

back to old "bad" practices :
rely on all other for a high standard of life
tutti quanti

until next crisis !

airsafetyman said...

"Stanford, a 58-year-old Texan running the firm [Stanford International Bank]that his grandfather founded, has denied any wrongdoing, but his location remained a mystery."

Don't know why this caught my eye.

fred said...

asf :

may because 8B$ are gone with the guy ? ;-)

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Where's our international man of mystery at present?

During the subcommitte hearing he went AWOL.

Then he went boating.

My guess is he's gone skiing.

Anonymous said...

Question of the Day --

When the EAC BoD pulls the plug on RP, what will the grey-water do going down the pipe?

a) Swirl clockwise IAW coriolis forces

b) Swirl counter-clockwise IAW the FSW specification?

c) Go straignt down ... because even Mother Nature is tired of this circus.

airsafetyman said...

"My guess is he's gone skiing."

Or skating?

fred said...

no , you whole lot don't get it ...

he is gone to ski at sea on a skate named BS ...

but i am not sure of the words orders ...! ;-)

airsafetyman said...

Memo to Roel's yacht crew:
Get paid BEFORE you leave the dock!

fred said...


you would say that WHEN the DoB
will plug RP , they will ask a question

why didn't we do it before ?
it feels like such a relief ...

fred said...

Memo to Roel's yacht crew 2:

even if you have been paid , don't go at sea !
use BK instead ...

TBMs_R_Us said...

We have a BIG problem that is measured in Trillions but that should be put into perspective. US GDP is over $15 TRILLION. And borrowing, and/or printing money (= incur inflation) allows us to work out the problem over several years instead of incurring a massive disruption all at once. It is not the same kind of borrowing that got us into this mess.


Can't buy your argument that "it is not the same kind of borrowing", because borrowing is borrowing and gets you deeper in debt and weakens your currency, irrespective of the reason for it. Of course, you'd like to think that with this borrowing there is light at the end of the tunnel, but we are a long way from knowing whether it's the light of an oncoming train or daylight. With unfunded obligations of the US Gov't running to the tens of trillions (social security, medicare, etc.) my guess is we will see the train before daylight.

As Fred points out, $15T is a "how to lie with statistics" number, with 35% imputations and hedonics.

I think a lot of people, like those who are losing their homes and/or jobs would say that there is "massive disruption all at once" going on right now. How massive and abrupt does it have to get for you?

The sad thing is that 99% of people in the US don't understand an iota of what Fred said in his post about our economy, why it is doing what it is, and the implications of it in international markets and politics.

One last thing: The social security trust fund's assets are what? US Gov't Bonds! So, the US Gov't wrote a note, and gave it to itself, and calls it an asset. Since when is a promissory note that you write to yourself an asset?

eclipse_deep_throat said...

Jackrabbit said,
And borrowing, and/or printing money (= incur inflation) allows us to work out the problem over several years instead of incurring a massive disruption all at once. It is not the same kind of borrowing that got us into this mess.

Ok, that makes sense. But I'm still sick to my stomach the last few days.

I found this link:

And an MSNBC site mentioned that some of the debt is owned by the Social Security trust fund managers, etc., leaving only about $4T in the hands of the public and/or foreign govts. I thought it would be much higher...

One local car dealer, Zangara Dodge, closed up the other day while the owner, Ken Zangara, desperately tries to sell the dealership. Mr. Z apparently lost his primary lending source. If the DEALER can't get financing to carry inventory, what does that suggest for the consumer? And if they can't sell cars - what does that imply for the GA market?

Baron said,
The only hope for these countries to recoup their "loans" from us is to keep on pumping more and more money. Just like ETIRC/Roel/Mann have been doing/are trying to do with Eclipse.

The second they stop, they lose everything.

OK, I think I am **starting** to understand what Baron is saying. China, Japan, Roel Piper, whomever, are paying X dollars in exchange for a future series of payments. We could call it "income" or "dividends" or whatever. So if I exert a few brain cells, I guess it means that China doesn't expect to literally get back $696.2 billion with interest. They are expecting to get a stream of income, and that future income will compensate them via the "time value of money" and all that.

I understand the metaphor with 'borrow $200k from the bank and they own you ...borrow $2 billion and YOU own the bank.' Sort of like how Trump always manages to get on top whenever he needs to file Chapter 11 and reorganize, LOL, which just happened yesterday. The problem is the stopping part. That is, IMO, what is happening now since in its most simplest form, a recession is a reduction in economic activity. Not as many willing buyers and sellers at a given price point...

But things DO close up, like our Zangara Dodge, when the guy/gal running the show decides they have lost enough money. This is when SUNK costs come into play, and it will eventually affect Roel. We still don't have any 'proof' positive that he got the $$$ from the Russians. Still, Roel will also have that epiphany only after he can no longer visualize getting whatever (net) income stream he expected from EjAI in the short-term. Sure this is just speculation, but how much net income will they likely be able to generate 12 months from now? Best case and worst-case scenarios??

I would bet that EjAI would still be at negative net income in Feb 2010 even if the market recovers and they can sell EVERY plane they can build for $2 million each.


fred said...

TBM ...

i think that i read somewhere that a "correct" (but not at all politically ) estimations of US debts overall in the long-medium to long term was roughly estimated at :

45 to 60 Trillions ...

ok , call me names , now ! ;-))

you see i think this is something "inside the beast" ...
pres. Obama made a speech for arabic listeners ...
there was a very nice pearl into it , a pearl which say very long on the size of the problem ...

he said : " We , USA , have never been colonialist ..."

but he forgot about a few places (Philippines being one of them ..) and forgot that USA has military bases , presences or both in 135 different countries in the world ... omitting that the 2 biggest colonialists countries (France and U.K.) never reached that much ...

you see , it is very sad for me to feel that some can live with a pole in th eyes , and that the pole has been in place for so long ...that they just forgot about ...!!!

Jackrabbit said...

The problems are deep and systemic. And not just in the financial system but in the social system (i.e. cultural).

We should pay for as much of the restructuring as we can today (lowering taxes just means more borrowing), but as is often the case with many debtors, we need time to workout these debts. Taking a big hit all at once impairs out ability to do so and ravages the rest of the world as well.

The money that is raised is being used, essentially, to restructure the US economy. It is not being used to purchase cheap chinese consumer goods, expensive homes in the suburbs/exurbs and big SUVs to get to commute to those homes. (NOTE: Yes, some $ will find its way to less productive use because there is still some demand for cheap consumables and some people live in those exurbs, etc.).

It will take time. It will take a lot more money. It will get ugly. But we have to start somewhere. Maybe, because we are such smart guys, we can fashion a workable, realisitc plan to save America and the world. Lets try to do it in less than 10 posts. I have dinner plans.

fred said...

yes , jack ...

the problems (with a lot of S at end!) are multiform , very various and most problematic VERY deep ...

saying that today downturn is only a financial crisis would be like saying " 10 minutes before he died , he was still alive ...!"

it has to be taken from a certain point = that is already a big change , not long ago anyone saying so was labeled "terrorist, anti-american ,etc..."

will it become ugly ? yes , that is probably one of the only thing which can be promised now ...

will you get over it ? yes , surely , with times , lots of efforts and a massive dose of humility ...!!

where we disagree : while so many were congratulating themselves of being in the only place worth being in , and being so clever ...

the world has evolved ... a lot !

to the point that i am not sure the rest of the world see the salvation of USA as the salvation of the world ...

kind of : you need us , we need you ... we can do without you , can you ?

have a good diner ...! (hope she is real cute !!! ;-)) )

stan said...


What happened?

Forget your golf clubs?

Ken Meyer said...

No, it was the Colombian coffee.


FreedomsJamtarts said...

Actually the EA500 would be pretty useful for other columbian exports.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Ken I have to give you kudo's for such a good natured and damn funny response. I am still laughing out loud.

Jackrabbit said...

Fred: where we disagree while so many were congratulating themselves of being in the only place worth being in , and being so clever ...

I didn't disagree with you. In fact I recognized that the problem has a social/cultural dimension.

to the point that i am not sure the rest of the world see the salvation of USA as the salvation of the world ...

Yes, the world economy is less dependent, and many resent the US but I'd bet that the world is still dependent *enough* that a US recovery is necessary for a world recovery.

There has been a lot of talk of "decoupling" of US and world economies and a move away from US$ as reserve currency yet the deep US recession has pulled down in the rest of the world and 'flight to quality' is still into USD (even if many see that as nonsensical). So I think that this time around a US recovery is still necessary for a global recovery. Maybe it will be different in the next recession.

She's out of my league. But I like a challenge. It would help if I could tell her how we have saved the world today!

GettingReady2FileSuit said...


What happened?

Forget your golf clubs?

February 18, 2009 9:21 AM
Ken Meyer said...
No, it was the Colombian coffee.


No, i figure its more likely fear of the federal police arresting Ken for arriving in Mexico with a full "bacon strip" application due to a complete failure of the PFD/MFDs.

airsafetyman said...

"Meanwhile, the brash, 58-year-old financier sought to get a one-way flight out of the U.S. to Antigua, CNBC reported Wednesday. Citing an unnamed source in the private jet industry, CNBC said Stanford contacted a private jet owner Tuesday and attempted to pay for the flight with a credit card, but was refused because the company would only accept a wire transfer."

These dudes never fly coach, do they? Or stay and face the music. The Stanford bank was a big supporter of the yachtie race week every year in Antigua.

airtaximan said...

at least he's being honest... the coffee made him have to pee...

Shafted Again...! said...

Eclipse closed the doors today, laid everyone off. They were told that they would get paid this week for the past two weeks but this week was a freebie... Saw it coming a long time ago.....
As usual, the blog was right on "AGAIN"....

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...


If true I am very sorry to hear that, even though it has been totally expected.

Disruption of so many lives has always been the danger lurking in the nearly assured failure of this venture.

I know I speak for the majority that we wish those effected nothing but the best.

As I have offered before - if any are looking for work I am happy to provide what assistance I can if Shane can work as intermediary.

GettingReady2FileSuit said...

Like the death of someone you knew, whether you liked them or disliked them, its OVER. With the spirit of a person that shared a beautiful life with the world, rememberance will live forever in a positive light. With ECorpse, all that will remain is hatred, hatred and more hatred. Towards the Wedge, RP, MM, PB, et all.

No service, no parts, no company. Ken, take your "trophy" airplane and realize that it was no trophy.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Rather than push things through Shane, I've setup an e-mail for any former Eclipser's looking for potential work.

I may be able to make recommendations for contract houses as well as being aware of specific positions at various programs around the country and internationally.

Jackrabbit said...

Well we're getting close to my self-imposed deadline for solving the world's economic problems. Since no one has offered THE solution, I will offer my own.

After careful consideration, calling upon years of experience, it is clear to me that the 'Critics' blog hosts a hidden resource that the world desperately needs. Ken, I humbly beseech you shrill ..uh, evangelize on behalf of failing companies everywhere.

Ken, we 'Critics' stand in awe at your powers of (self) persuasion and we can no longer selfishly monopolize your talents when the fate of the world hangs in the balance. Banks, Autos and other companies NEED your support.

Fred, as budgets are tight, perhaps you will consider translating Ken's message of joy to the world.

PS Ken, the Obama administration is preparing your nda.

eclipso said...

Confirmed by my former lead in NM....he will be calling from his house in an haour or so and I will gett more particulars then..

baron95 said...

In typical Eclipse post-Tuesday fashion...

That puts them under a 1-2week time pressure before the 363 unravels definitively.

Tough Break - Too Bad!

Question is, will the creditors have the balls to press for liquidation or will they agree to be strung along, and along, and along by RP.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

There may be some significant business opportunities now to provide ongoing support for the preemie jet fleet, such as it is.

Owners will be scrambling for assistance with parts, service, repairs, information, etc. This will require engineering, manufacturing and procurement experience from Eclipse, connections with the various suppliers/vendors, etc.

Yes, I am serious.

Who out there might be interested in doing this the right way?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Wow, new e-mail is humming.

I am truly very sorry for everyone effected directly, unfortunately, the inderect effects will continue for months.

For those already in the inbox, I am balancing current client work with checks based on your backgrounds - keep the faith, there ARE jobs out there.

Delbert Grady said...

Me thinks our friend Ken was driven back home this morning by something other than the coffee. Maybe he got wind of the news and thought better of sunning himself down Mexico way while Eclipse is imploding....again.

baron95 said...

Why have there been 3,000 cars abandoned at the Dubai airport?

Autoblog by Dan Roth on Feb 18th, 2009 at 10:58AM

You had to know it was going to end. Dubai's storied boom is starting to falter as the worldwide economic woes catch up with the nation's real estate and financial services-fueled good times. Abandoned cars are beginning to pile up at Dubai International Airport as overextended expatriates flee. Dubai throws debtors in the pokey, and if you lose your job, they yank your visa; two good reasons to drive to the airport and leave your maxed out credit cards on the passenger seat with an "I'm sorry" note. 3,000 cars are reportedly stockpiled at the airport so far, and with reports of 1,500 visas a day being cancelled, there may be a lot of dusty, cut rate luxury cars available for closeout prices.

Dave said...

I'm trying to understand what exactly this was...was it Eclipse saying "we're out of business" or was it Eclipse saying "go home for now because we can't pay you, but you're still an employee" (what Eclipse did last time there was financial troubles)? From the various posts it sounds like Eclipse didn't shut down but rather said go home for now...though in the end I'm not sure if it will make a difference. It's too bad for the employees and the customers as well as the suppliers.

gadfly said...

Let the dirge begin!

How ‘bout “Requiem for a Fallen Bird” . . . in “b flat”, minor.


(“C” sharp, or B(e) flat!)

(or “Ode to Everybody, without any cents!”)

Shane Price said...

New post up.

Be mindful of ALL the people involved with EAC, many of whom will be saddened by todays' events, and please show due respect for their feelings.


Jackrabbit said...

Sorry everyone, my humorous post was put up before I knew of the terminations.

Adam Hunt said...

In case anyone is interested the story is now up on AvWeb:

Report: Eclipse Workers Sent Home "Till Further Notice"

Eclipse Aviation told its workers in Albuquerque on Wednesday to go home and not to come back until further notice, a local news station,, has reported. Another site, Eyewitness News 4, says a photographer reported that he could see from the street workers leaving the Eclipse plant carrying boxes. Calls to Eclipse for confirmation or further details have not yet been returned. The assets of the company were sold last month in a bankruptcy court proceeding to EclipseJet Aviation International, a subsidiary of ETIRC Aviation, for $28 million in cash plus $160 million in shares and 15-percent equity in the company for secured shareholders. When the company filed for Chapter 11 protection last November, it was estimated that Eclipse owed more than $1 billion to a long list of creditors. Last October, Forecast International, an aerospace market think tank, said it expected the company would likely cease production early in 2009. In September, the company announced the Russian government had approved construction of an assembly plant there. AVweb will post further details as they become available.

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