Updated 23rd July at 20.14 hrs, GMT.
Since this post went live, I have been in contact with the original author, who tells me he had posted his comment to a 'Members Only' blog, and did not wish to have his words available in a public arena. As I have no desire to increase the pain which is all too familiar to those unfortunate enough to be in direct contact with Mr. Raburn, I am happy to comply with his request and have therefore deleted the original content of this headline post.
However...
Many, many other comments from others in the same position have come to my attention in the past few weeks, which I outline below in my own words.
Almost all those who took the opportunity of taking a refund (rather than a position on the ConJet) have had similar experiences. Despite there being no mention of the need to use Eclipse supplied forms, any request for a refund which did NOT arrive at EAC using the appropriate paperwork was ignored. When the correct paperwork was submitted, the company decided to delay the return of funds until the contracted 30 days had passed.
Ah, you enquire, when this clock start? Not, it would appear, when the forms arrived at EAC. Oh, no. The company started the clock when it opened the package, read the forms, confirmed they were filled in correctly and THEN passed the request on internally. In at least one case, this took 8 days, from the date the courier company got a signature for the package.
Now it gets interesting. Several position holders got annoyed (as you would expect) at getting this type of run around. While some were dealt with in an appropriate manner, others were passed from one harassed junior to another, all the time getting more and more agitated. After several weeks of being messed about, a few extracted promises that money would be returned on the 19th of July. That's four days ago now, but what's that if you have waited up to EIGHT years for your aircraft.
So the latest, latest, bang up to date news is....
Without fail, just in time for Oshkosh, money will be sent out on Friday next, the 25th. I'm not holding my breath, but I would hope that for once, and against all previous experience, Vern Raburn delivers what he promised.
In summary, I will convey to you all the sense of frustration that the original author expressed, when he requested I delete his comments. He would still buy the FPJ, at $2.1 million, in it's current condition.
But not from Vern.
That is a telling comment, and should be taken very seriously. This man has waited YEARS for the product he paid a substantial deposit on, and has given up on Eclipse, not the aircraft.
One last time, don't forget your 'Top Ten Shortcomings at EAC', by emailing your top five to me. I'll collate the results later this week and publish the 'final vote' afterwards.
Shane
269 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 269 of 269Not only that, but Eclipse employees are not returning calls to people who have been promised their deposits, not following up on emails, and Vern is being silent on the matter.
How many people is it confirmed have gone through and completed the process with their checks clearing? If the story about the bounced check is reliable, I think something like that would be a good piece of evidence for an involuntary BK petition. I believe those seeking refunds may have different legal standing from those depositors who are just waiting for their planes...IANAL.
The two new dayports KSRQ and KJAX announced just after the layoffs benefited from a half price special that likely boosted initial passenger traffic. It appears traffic is steadily falling off at the end of the month. (Week 40 was July 4th holiday)
Period .. KSRQ .. KJAX
Week 34 .. 3:25 .. 1:32
Week 35 .. 11:13 .. 10:20
Week 36 .. 16:06 .. 9:11
Week 37 .. 17:09 .. 12:14
Week 38 .. 13:47 .. 7:44
Week 39 .. 12:42 .. 12:04
Week 40 .. 6:12 .. 5:22
Week 41 .. 10:36 .. 7:40
Week 42 .. 8:18 .. 8:49
Week 43 .. 4:59 .. 6:49
The highest hour fields other than KGNV and KBCT are KTLH and KAPF. There traffic pattern in more erratic in this period.
Period .. KTLH .. KAPF
Week 34 .. 6:12 .. 2:31
Week 35 .. 8:14 .. 9:36
Week 36 .. 8:08 .. 4:14
Week 37 .. 7:00 .. 11:53
Week 38 .. 6:09 .. 5:49
Week 39 .. 11:49 .. 7:55
Week 40 .. 9:43 .. 7:44
Week 41 .. 5:47 .. 3:34
Week 42 .. 3:36 .. 6:53
Week 43 .. 3:13 .. 5:54
"You are correct - I also heard the deposit refund check from Eclipse bounced."
Anybody else curious as to why ETIRC is based in Amsterdam but ETIRC Aviation is based in Luxembourg? Could probably refund a lot of deposits with the rent on the Luxembourg digs. But that's not Roel's style, is it?
Anybody else curious as to why ETIRC is based in Amsterdam but ETIRC Aviation is based in Luxembourg? Could probably refund a lot of deposits with the rent on the Luxembourg digs. But that's not Roel's style, is it?
ETIRC Aviation was formerly Eclipse Aviation Europe.
ETIRC appears to be no more than a newly-formed branch office of Eclipse in Europe. Eclipse has tried to make it sound like ETIRC is some well-connected European company that has a huge market for Eclipse's. Adding Roel Pieper, another computer company excecutive, to the mix makes ETIRC sound more credible than it probably is.
Do a google image search for ETIRC - all you will see are pictures of people and Eclipse 500's. No infrastructure. Sounds fishy. Yet I read in a article ETIRC Aviation is headquartered in Luxembourg and has offices in Moscow, Istanbul and Cyprus.. Really? Where?
I wonder if ETIRC is really any more than just a mail drop, a website and a few phone lines. Has anyone ever seen their operation?
The whole thing sounds bogus, just like everything else Eclipse does. More big talk and lies from a company that can't even live up to their commitment to issue $150,000 refund checks for order cancellations.
PS - speaking of cancellations, how do you Eclipse holders that are waiting for a refund feel about Vern committing YOUR money to his attorneys so that they can chase bloggers, fight lawsuits against position holders seeking refunds, and prosecute his former employees?
If I were you, I'd be more than just a little upset!
My guess is that only a few that sue Eclipse NOW are likely to see any refund at all.
Dave and Niner Zulu,
If you go to the ETIRC Aviation website there is an address listed in Luxembourg: 16 Rue Jean-Pierre Brasseur, Luxembourg. When you do a Google Earth search the address comes up as a very comfortable house on a corner lot in a residential area. The web site also says they (ETIRC aviation) have offices in Russia, Cyprus, and Turkey. They only give the additional address for the Russian "office" and it is in Moscow. The ETIRC website (not ETIRC Aviation) doesn't give any addresses but states that ETIRC's home office is in the Netherlands and with other offices in Russia, Turkey, and Israel. My question was, since Eclipse's purse strings are controlled by ETIRC and they can't make the monthly rent payment on the Gainesville Service Center or make refunds to customers, why do they need so many European offices?
9Z, I agree, the whole operation is more than fishy; it reeks. I am beginning to think the only real office of ETIRC or ETIRC Aviation is the house in Luxembourg.
9Z, I agree, the whole operation is more than fishy; it reeks. I am beginning to think the only real office of ETIRC or ETIRC Aviation is the house in Luxembourg.
I smell dot com bomb 2.0. ETIRC isn't just involved with Eclipse, but they also claim to be doing a billion dollar hydrogen power project. Unless ETIRC has a massive amount of employees we aren't aware of, it looks like ETIRC has bitten off way more than it can chew...and done so on a very massive scale. Roel Pieper might be capable of managing a large organization (unlike Vern Roel's resume supports that), but just doesn't look like he has one. My impression of ETIRC is that it would be better suited as a VC than as an industrial company.
NEWSFLASH - "ECLIPSE DIEHARDS ON ENDANGERED SPECIES LIST"
Hey Alexa, Ken, M00, ex421 - by now all of you realize both the EAC and EACNg blog were pretty much right on. Maybe you didn't see the truth then but you must certainly see it by now. If we aren't all on the same page now, then we never will be.
You've got to admit it is pretty disheartening to see your fellow believers getting their dreams pretty much shot to hell. The glitches with the aircraft, the empty promises from Eclipse, the fear of not knowing if Eclipse will be around long enough to give you the aircraft you were promised or service it afterwards.
What is sad here is that a lot of the critics and the diehards are too scared to post for fear of ending up at the end of one of Vern Raburn's desperate and pointless lawsuits. So Eclipse is pretty much getting a free pass to say whatever they please, do whatever they please, and you guys have to bend over and take it.
Grab a new moniker and come back. It can only help and besides...we miss you! ;-)
Since the “critics” often seem to have knowledge of facts beyond the control of the little bird factory, I came across something of major interest in the area of fluid dynamics (aero dynamics comes under the heading of fluid dynamics, for those who may be new to the term) . . . that could have affected the “disruptive technology”, had is been known a few years back.
Do a “Google” search for “bumpy whale fins aerodynamics” . . . specifically, new discoveries about the intelligent design of the “flippers” of the humpback whale, that are already having an effect on airfoils design.
The leading edge bumps, once thought of as “accidents of evolution”, turn out to be a precise contour, to allow sudden tight turns . . . allowing a fifty foot animal to maneuver in pursuit of small “food”.
Already, possible applications are being considered, and studied in wind-tunnel testing, for wind turbine, helicopter, and other control surfaces.
The next problem will be “how to incorporate” the 3D surface, into a wing, or control surface.
There you have it!
gadfly
(But, of course, the E500/400 series are designs that need no help.)
Already, possible applications are being considered, and studied in wind-tunnel testing, for wind turbine, helicopter, and other control surfaces.
I read about it in HHGTG. The whale had about the same areodynmaic properties as a bowl of petunias.
Look for C-level employee leaving EAC within the next couple of days. Also, confirmed that customer deposit checks AND employee reimbursements checks have bounced.
Dave
That is truly amazing . . . 80,000 bowls of petunias, each weighing almost forty tons, migrating 15,000 miles every year, besides their side excursions to breed, play, and catch food . . . I had no idea that “bowls of petunias” were so . . . “aero” . . . or is it, “hydrodynamic”?
gadfly
(And they even have time to “sing”. I’ve spent countless hours under the waves, listening to their songs on passive sonar . . . and they could easily out-run our submarine . . . even at the “half-hour rate” of “flank speed”, over 20 knots.)
Look for C-level employee leaving EAC within the next couple of days
That could only be one of three employees. Only one of those employees is "at will"...
Also, confirmed that customer deposit checks AND employee reimbursements checks have bounced.
Not paying employees is worse than not paying depositors. If this is going on, fireworks could happen.
That is truly amazing . . . 80,000 bowls of petunias, each weighing almost forty tons, migrating 15,000 miles every year, besides their side excursions to breed, play, and catch food . . . I had no idea that “bowls of petunias” were so . . . “aero” . . . or is it, “hydrodynamic”?
I suggest you read Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy or see the BBC miniseries.
Flyjet,
Not sure who you are, but your info seems to coincide with what I am hearing from Eclipse position holders.
By the way, I spent Friday morning with a deposit-holder. All he has to show for his deposit is a model in his office - he hasn't asked for a refund on his deposit. He is a the type of person who does deals on a handshake and expects others to do the same. I'm afraid he misplaced his trust when he signed with Eclipse.
It really pisses me off when I see really bad things happen to really good people.
E - Eclipse
T - Trying
I - Ignorantly to
R - "Reorganize" a
C - Company
...Im sure we can come up with more ways that ETIRC got its name.
...Im sure we can come up with more ways that ETIRC got its name.
ETIRC is considering changing its name to FUBAR.
You engineering and/or designer types, who read this blog, now have another tool in your bag of tricks . . . for truly disruptive technology. Dealing with Reynolds numbers (laminar and turbulent flow), Euler numbers (cavitation), and all that sort of thing, empirical testing may show better control in these areas, . . . things that often spell the difference between excellence and mediocrity, in aircraft design. This “whale front-flipper thing” is nothing to pass by without careful notice. Who knows, it could even find a place with the little bird . . . if it were to survive.
Somehow, me thinks we’ll see certain applications in aircraft, and in turbine blade design . . . even in small engines. Already, expensive studies are underway.
gadfly
(Assumptions, especially in fluid dynamics, have spelled disaster for many aircraft manufacturers . . . the little bird from ABQ is not the first. Although, that seems to be the least of their problems at the moment.)
(“Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy” and the BBC . . . what great sources of scientific whizdumb! Too bad Douglas Adams, 1952-2001, isn’t around any more, or he, and we could all watch the little bird “evolve” into a “real” bird, given enough time and money . . . Hey, that’s right! That is the business plan in ABQ . . . brilliant!)
Niner - Zulu,
Sorry to hear about your acquaintance. Many people, like myself, have misplaced their trust with this organization.
Luckily, I was able to mitigate my damages.
Well, let's do some investigating.
I googled Etirc Aviation, and came up with their website: www.etirc.com. Here's what it says: About ETIRC
European Technology and Investment Research Center (ETIRC) was founded in 2004 by a dedicated team of Entrepreneurs, with a key objective to leverage Russia's and the CIS's wealth of knowledge and resources into the West and vice versa, while keeping The Netherlands as their Gateway.
With our own Investment and Research Center, we are able to provide our partners with reliable and independent investment services and access to a range of high calibre projects and businesses in Russia. While simultaneously providing access to investment opportunities as well as knowledge to Turkish, Russian and Eastern European corporations we create financial structures and legal advice for the companies that we support. We also offer access to Investment Strategies and Research Data from a variety of reliable sources.
Since it's inception in The Netherlands ETIRC has opened further offices in Russia, Turkey and Israel.
And this...ETIRC Aviation S.a.r.l. is the principal driver of the VLJ industry in Europe, enabling jet networks for airlines and aviation entrepreneurs across the continent. This will provide Europe’s business community with affordable, on-demand, point-to-point jet travel that drives productivity.
ETIRC Aviation will offer a full range of white-label VLJ services to jet taxi operators, including a real-time scheduling and operations system, fleet financing, VLJ leasing, business consultancy, pilots, training programmes and VLJ maintenance centres.
Wow. Sounds a lot like the same BS coming out of Dayjet, just before they effectively went TU.
It's hard to find an address at the ETIRC website - there isn't one listed under "Contact Us". Silly me for checking there! But when I clicked on the tiny words "Site Map" I did come up with an address which is:
ETIRC B.V.
Dreef 32
2012 HS Haarlem
The Netherlands
Tel: 31 23. 512.1400
Fax: 31 23. 512.1411
info@etirc.com
Further checking of the address on Google, and I learned that Haarlem is the city in the Netherlands. Dreef 32 is the street address. Double-checking this address against Google and I came up with - and I kid you not - Executive Health Services!
Here's the link, check for yourself: http://2miljoen.nl/details-24333377-0000-0000/Executive_Health_Services_B.V.
OK, so maybe ETIRC holds meetings at their health spa. I can't fault them for that.
I'll do some further checking and report back. Come to think about it, I thought they were supposed to be in Luxembourg! Either they are lost, or I am!
Roel, come out, come out, wherever you are.....
;-)
Looks like Airsafetyman was right: according to the 2/20/08 press release from Eclipse, ETIRC Aviation S.a r.l. has its principal place of business at 16 Rue Jean-Pierre Brasseur, L-1258 Luxembourg.
Guess things got a little to steamy at the health spa?
ASM was right - the international headquarters for ETIRC Aviation does appear to be in a home in a residential neighborhood, but I suspect it is an "office services" firm since several businesses are registered to the same address, namely:
Bank Leu AG, specializing in "Offshore finance, secret bank account, tax haven, shell companies". Here's a picture of the house http://www.transnationale.org/upload/leu_lux.jpg
Akila Finance S.A
Office Space Luxembourg (http://www.officespaceinluxembourg.com/?view=officeDetails&officeID=2865)
Anyway, you get the idea. Can you spell "shell company" as in zero assets? Where is that $200 million coming from, again?
ooooh guys ....
i wrote it before (on other blog )
i worked for about a year in Luxembourg ...
i spent more than 10 years just across the border...
i work in finance and money matter for the last +/- 15 years ...
ok , that said , there is something all must know about Luxembourg-ville (town in contrary to the country of the same name = Luxembourg is at the same time a country and a town !)
the adress specified is a service-adress (somewhere you can rent a mail box ) this is designed to get the best out of the tax policies of Luxembourg ( very , very relax toward personal and business tax )
Etirc is an empty shell on that point ...
REAL finance world in Luxembourg is a very small microcosm ...
which is a bit of a non-sens , peoples usually go there for secrecy , but the one REALLY involved in doing Business FROM LUX. are a handful , and we know each other or we have a friend who them ... (not talking about the one who have ONLY money deposited plainly : it is one of the best way to end-up in Jail to break the Bank-secrecy ...!)
so Etirc doing what it say ??
very unlikely !!! at the same time , to obtain a cent of loan from a Luxembourg based bank is like asking a politic for honesty and sincerity ... it MAY happen , but you've got to work on it ...!!! :-))
and for subject to get a loan or bank whatever on something as fuzzy as the Merry Band ...
if it happen , i would consider changing the place for my dosh ...!
ALL banking activities in LUX. are under the control of Luxembourg banking authorities ...
believe me , they start to smile ONLY when they burn themselves to the third degree ....!!!
Avidpilot,
a lot of major (or even all major) E. U. banks have subsidiaries in Luxembourg because the laws are a little bit different to those of the other E. U. member states. But this will be changed in some more years...
So Luxembourg is something like a save haven for certain types of money businesses.
I do not know where R. Pieper has stored his money. He made some money with H & L.
I do not imagine any type of ROI worth about 10 M per year resulting from normal business activities of EAC, which could explain R. Piepers investment in EAC. - But that's my deficit!
julius
Avidpilot, Thanks for the photo of the Bank Leu offices/mail drop in Luxembourg. Bank Leu was a particularily sleazy bank that recently was merged with three other banks to form "Clariden Leu"
with headquarters in Zurich. What is curious is that the Clariden Leu website does not show an office anymore in Luxembourg. Which is not to say that they don't have an office in Luxembourg, just that it is not listed on the website. Curiouser and curiouser. Can you imagine the speed at which depositers checks at Oshkosh will find their way to Clariden Leu? Faster than Gadfly's whales! Much faster.
Avidpilot,
Thanks also for coming up with a street address in the Netherlands for ETIRC even though it was a health spa. So if the ETIRC offices in Holland turn out to be a health spa and the ETIRC Aviation offices in Luxembourg turn out to be a mail drop for a sleazy Swiss bank, just where are the ETIRC/ETIRC Aviation places of business?
Gad:
I read some of the articles on the whale tubercles and was reminded of a similar use of bumps in 1977. I was the chief engineer for an America's Cup mast and rigging. An English engineer, Peter Ebbetts, developed a tape with small bumps that was placed on the mast to encourage turbulent flow and keep the flow, newly energized, attached to the mast, and improve the mast/sail system's L/D ratio. makes me wonder if their patent wouldn't run afoul of this prior art?
Still in WiFi range. The madly bouncing checks sure sound like the death rattle of Eclipse sinking ship (to keep with the nautical theme).
Turboprop_pilot
Vern at OShkosh:
1- there's a problem with EAC checks
2- sometimes, they experience a bouncing condition, to be clear, this is a rare occurance, and only occurs on the ground
3- to be clear, this is not a financial issue, its a problem with the accounting system... it is not a safety of flight issue.
4- we've known about this problem for some time now
5- we've been working quietly on a fix with a world class supplier for months and months now
6- we expect to cut-in new checks, on Tuesday
flyjets said...
Look for C-level employee leaving EAC within the next couple of days. Also, confirmed that customer deposit checks AND employee reimbursements checks have bounced.
If this is so, I'm not sure if it is good news or bad news.
On the positive side, it would signal (hopefully) then end of the Vern Chapter of Eclipse, a possible CH 7/11 filing and a chance for a new, more measured begining.
On the other hand, it is always sad when customers, suppliers, employees are suddenly left holding an empty bag and we see another GA aviation startup fail.
I have one (slight) hope, that all that is is the final Vern squeeze/cram down from ETIRC and that it is, in fact, Vern who is being forced out as CEO, that Peg will stay, ETIRC will put more money, employees and depositors will be played and Chapter 3 of Eclipse will start. That would be the least traumatic development at this point.
Lets wait and see.
Keep us posted flyjets.
employees and depositors will be played
I think you meant paid, but unintentionally accurate when describing Eclipse.
I think the Fat Lady has just hit the first high note.
airsafety :
where is the place of business for E-trick ?
it is totally virtual , that's why they were/are looking to make "a virtual network" ...!!:-))
when i see some writing "etirc will pump some more money into the thing "
1° i laugh ...
2° i still laugh
3° then what is supposed to my brain start to whisper to my ears " you're stupid ? what for? anyway to throw money in , you've got to have it in the first place ..."
julius : Luxembourg is not a place for fraudulent money ...
in fact Luxembourg are really tough when it come to anything unethical , too shadowy and forbidden in the law ...
they comply to E.U. laws , with only a few differences in the form of tax system = as soon as you have a firm with a central office in Luxembourg (incorporation) you benefit from both European and local system , so if you pay your tax in Lux. , you cannot be asked an other time in the rest of E.U. thru a system called "non-double-tax" ...
that is the main point ! since the Lux. authorities knows that you are not actually going to work there , they accept you to pay tax in a very low amount , give a tax certificate ,because they know otherwise you wouldn't care about the place ... so sometime (often it depends) you can negotiate your tax yourself with the authorities ...
but as if it is going to change soon :
NO , all politics have accounts in Luxembourg and all other E.U members bank have branch there , for tax reason , again : instead of paying too much home , they miraculously made a chunk of their profits in Lux. ;-))
the best example remain milk : the E.U. "producing" (+processing) the most milk in E.U. is there ...
not because of cows , only because of firms dealing with milk ...
and it is the only place i know , where it is clean money (mostly , no one can be too sure ) with a total population of +/- 175.000 inhabitants (around 110.000 in capital town ) but with more than 3000 financial entities ...
(Monaco is an other example , but in the latest inquiry made by E.U.(? or something like!) , the title of report was "Monaco = 20 % glamour , 80 % laundering !" ...!)
the biggest lender to the E.U. institution is Luxembourg ... so as for a change , not soon , my friend ... not very soon ...! ;-))
Can someone name even ONE employee of ETIRC?
I am thinking that the press has been duped into believing ETIRC really exists, when it does not. I think it's nothing more than 3 or 4 guys in different countries, looking for something to do, but unable to put anything together.
Check out ETIRC's main business this time last year...
Based in Netherlands, European Technology and Investment Research Center (ETIRC) will help convert all Sochi’s busses to use hydrogen fuel. Contract with all the details will be signed by the end of this month, reports Max Media Group. The Dutch specialists will provide the technology to convert diesel and gasoline powered engines to use hydrogen fuel, and will build reservoirs and fuel stations around the city."
Were any buses ever converted to hydrogen fuel?
Hmmm....didn't think so.
Just as the rise of the internet has allowed charlatans to magnify their presence to project a sense of legitimacy and solidity, it is the the role of bloggers to use the power of internet to call them to task.
Great effort Avidpilot.
Hey "Die hards", how do feel about Eclipse being "rescued" by this outfit. Make you sleep better at night?
Can you imagine how the Adam position holders feel now that the Russian outfit bought the assets for $10M? How much more is a dead Eclipse worth? Can you see 'em lining up for that great new ConJet built by ETIRC? Which will there be more of, A-700s or E-400s??
I am thinking that the press has been duped into believing ETIRC really exists, when it does not. I think it's nothing more than 3 or 4 guys in different countries, looking for something to do, but unable to put anything together.
A handful of employees is all I've seen mentioned. ETRIC does mention that it is hiring:
http://www.etirc.com/cms/page/171
I'm still not seeing a multibillion dollar business there. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop with DayJet announcing that it too is in with ETIRC and is providing the "real-time scheduling and operations system" for ETIRCs white label aviation service:
http://aviation.etirc.com/
This page lists the heads of ETIRC Aviation:
http://aviation.etirc.com/page/3
ETIRC's partner for Turkey has a website here:
http://www.inovo.nl/index_en.html
His biggest claim to fame was that he was aide to Tom Lantos in the US Congress. ETIRC/Eclipse/DayJet are just so tied up in hiring people politically connected...its like they think if they hire enough political connections, they then have a company. No wonder these companies are doing so poorly.
I pop off for a few quiet days on the boat and look what happens:-
EAC have written to those seeking return of their deposits saying that 'a new round of financing' has not closed, making repayment at this time a no no. Instead, they are offered 6% interest.
I might be a bit old fashioned, but in my book, 6% of nothing is still, well, nothing.
We've all heard the 'new round of financing' line from EAC in the past. Before Roel got involved and offered some immediate cash for 51% of the company, Vern felt he was days away from BK.
Why ANOTHER round? Who is out, or more correctly, not in? Ask yourselves these questions. I have.
In the immortal words of 'Deep Throat' in "All the Presidents Men", when Woodward meets him to ask for directions in moving the Watergate story on:-
"Follow the money"
Guys (and girls) this is now a 'story' about money and the money is running out.
That's endgame.
On a serious note, a number of depositors have contacted the blog. You know who you are, and I believe that you would benefit from talking to each other directly.
As time is now of the essence, you might want to email me to agree a method whereby direct contact between you is established.
Shane
EAC have written to those seeking return of their deposits saying that 'a new round of financing' has not closed, making repayment at this time a no no. Instead, they are offered 6% interest.
That's also not in the agreement. I'd recommend that any depositor contact a lawyer before signing any piece of paper from Eclipse and it might be in the depositors interest to form a class if they are considering litigation.
It should be interesting to see the political fallout. Lets not forget about the Eclipse IRB that will come due next year. The ABQ mayor (who is in Eclipse's pocket) said that there was no risk:
http://daystar2.cabq.gov:81/Attachments/5311.doc
Eclipse and politicians are as thick as thieves and have gotten so much corporate welfare, that Eclipse failing has got to show how horribly run Eclipse was.
Speaking of not being able to find additional funding, here's a link to the latest humor from DayJet. I love how the article starts out:
DayJet, the per-seat, per- flight business air carrier may or may not have a workable business model, but the company seems to have the marketing concept down pat.
http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080727/BUSINESS/807270323/1003/business
Then the articles goes on to point out that the only person Eclipse could dredge up to support them in Montgomery was someone who flew on a DayJet once six months ago. It looks like the media is starting to take off their rose colored glasses...
Fred,
perhaps Lux was selected just by chance as a third country for a transaction - but already 2006, before ECA gave up its own european branche.
You know Roel is not an "aviator" but a "sailor" (look for "Pieper Favonius" - Favonius Ventures internet homepage showed the boat "Favonius" -
http://www.sail-world.com/europe/Favonius-leads-maxis-at-Rolex-Capri-Sailing-Week/44676
).
Thus I can imagine that enthusiasm
for aviation is not the main incitement for his engagement!
julius
Hey, Roel, Nice Boat! Maxi Class and all, too! They don't come cheap do they? Guess we know who put the wind in your sails. They are standing around in the mud at Oshkosh, Roel, and they are not happy campers.
Hey, Roel, Nice Boat! Maxi Class and all, too! They don't come cheap do they? Guess we know who put the wind in your sails.
There's an article written back in 2000 just on Roel. I found this part about him interesting:
Among many Dutch businesspeople, the bold approach Mr. Pieper advocates is considered a quick fix for troubled companies but not a formula for building sustainable businesses. Mr. Pieper has made a career of jumping from company to company, they say. But he has never developed one firm through prolonged effort. "The general impression of people who work with him is that he's good at turnaround, but then he doesn't really build something -- he sells it," says Lex Kwee, principal at New Business Associates, a Dutch management consultancy.
http://www.redherring.com/Home/9347
Clearly Roel hasn't [sufficiently] turned around Eclipse and that might be because of Vern's self-described skillset where Vern also isn't good at managing companies but instead was after the quick sale:
He does not believe any competition will come from larger competitors, who would not be able to make the production leap necessary to make a lower-cost small VLJ. “Cessna cannot come after us,” he says. Whether Raburn himself is around to see that new family is uncertain. He hopes to organise an IPO in the next few years to pay back his equity investors. “I need to be the guy who takes Eclipse public,” he says. “But whether I continue to be the chief executive of a company employing three, four, five thousand people...probably not. It’s not my skillset.”
http://www.eclipseaviation.com/index.php?option=com_newsroom&task=viewarticle&id=1010&Itemid=347
Seeing how Vern was so completely wrong about Cessna (and that was only two years ago), that would seem to further show that this guy shouldn't be CEO. Then again, things are so screwed up, it might take either a BK reorg or BK liquidation to right things...no CEO might be able to get out of the mess Vern created without going to BK. Vern might be good for a startup small company that employs less than 100 (though I question his actual abilities since his only skill seems to be raising money and that might not be so good if he lies through his teeth to get it)...Vern doesn't seem to have the "skillset" to manage a large company, particularly a large manufacturing company that requires precision manufacturing and is in a significantly regulated industry.
This recent NTSB report involving loss of attitude information on an A320 might give some EA500 operators and regulators food for thought:
http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2008/a08_53_55.pdf
or
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5fd9bl
Perhaps there are times when an airplane can be too integrated.
Roel has a history of being friends with frauds and being taken in by crackpots.
I just found this on the Sloot Digital Coding System and Jan Sloot:
http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/p.spronck/Sloot.htm
http://crackpottheoryoftheweek.blogspot.com/2007/04/jan-sloots-data-compression.html
Here's a good video with Roel in it talking about SDCS:
http://www.liveartists.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=8
This company for some reason seemed to remind me of Vern, Ed and Roel:
http://www.smartcomputing.com/editorial/dictionary/detail.asp?guid=&searchtype=&DicID=18573&RefType=Encyclopedia
Perhaps there are times when an airplane can be too integrated.
There's nothing inherently wrong with integration, it's just a matter of having indepedent backup in case that integration fails. Eclipse just seems to want to get rid of safety to make their aircraft cheaper. There are cars that are very integrated, but if the system fails, its much less hazardous than being in a vehicle at high speeds and high altitudes...you can't just pull over to the side of the road in a jet. The whole philosophy behind Eclipse is screwed up because a high speed, high alitutude jet is way different than a stationary Dell computer or a 60 MPH car. The FPJ (along with the Frankenjet) have their underlying design as the problem by actively discouraging the installation of backup safety equipment. Like how many times did we hear Vern snear about steam gauges? Look at how cheap he went with the Garmin 400 instead of the G1000...but if he had the more expensive G1000, that would mean there were steam gauges to provide safety for customers, but safety is too expensive to Vern.
It seems like the the few $100K difference between the Mustang the FPJ doesn't make the FPJ worth it with all the ways Eclipse is always trying to screw people and turn out unsafe products.
I can only imagine the discussions with financiers...
Fs: so what happend to Dayjet?
Vr: they are the last thing I'm losing sleep over
Fs: how many order do you have on the books?
Vr: 2700 give or take
Fs: next....
TBMs_R_Us said...
Can you imagine how the Adam position holders feel now that the Russian outfit bought the assets for $10M? How much more is a dead Eclipse worth?
I'd say about 30 times as much.
Adam: no jet TC, Eclipse: Jet TC/PC
Adam: no jets delivered, Eclipse: 200+ jets delivered (captive support market)
Adam: 1 piston plane/ month production rate, Eclipse: 1 jet plane/week day production rate
Adam: Planes substantially overweight with ZERO full fuel payload, Eclipse: Planes substantially meet performance guarantees.
Adam: 200 Employees, Eclipse: 2,000 employees.
Add all that, and I think the Russians overpaid for Adam, unless they really needed a carbon fiber tooling set for something or another. Either way Eclipse ought to fetch about 30x what Adam fetched.
Dave said ... it might be in the depositors interest to form a class if they are considering litigation.
Humm.... litigation against a company that you are convinced has no funds and many here content has no assets of value and I content has the investors as totally secured creditors of any assets many times over!!!
I doubt any reputable lawyers would take this on contingency and paying legal fees to pursue this is useless.
Humm.... litigation against a company that you are convinced has no funds
Where did I say that?
I doubt any reputable lawyers would take this on contingency and paying legal fees to pursue this is useless.
Like I said, if they were considering litigation, they might be better off doing it as a group. A despositor might prefer to be a secured creditor through judgment lien rather than being a de facto unsecured creditor. Depending on the nature of the judgment, it couldn't be dischargeable in BK court and so would be an impairment. As you've said before, a post-BK Eclipse would be valuable and judgment liens would reduce the value of a post-BK Eclipse, but not to the point of making Eclipse worthless. As far as who already has liens and what the liens are on, that can be obtained - most likely with the help of a lawyer - by getting a copy of the UCC filings in Eclipse's name. Until you've seen said UCC filings don't assume. It would cost someone very little (and a very small amount when done in a group) to see what assets Eclipse has under lien and estimate what assets aren't covered by existing liens. There's also tax consequences and other such things to consider and so people should seek advice of professionals and it would certainly seem to be cost effective to split the costs between depositors as much as possible.
The official “2008 Airventure Oshkosh EAA” website says there are a few minutes more than 11 hours in the countdown (by T+Tissot Swiss Watches since 1853) . . . until the event begins. Some of you will be “privileged” to ask pertinent questions . . . maybe even embarrassing questions, at the “Eclipse Booth”, until August 3, 2008.
Please do so . . . and report back!
And I’ll put in a “plug” for the Swiss Watches: They do what they claim, reliably, year after year. I replace the alligator bands every couple years or so (in a machine shop they get some abuse) . . . and I wonder how many alligators does it take to supply the needs of a single Swiss watch. ‘Would that the little bird from ABQ could claim even a tenth of that reliability . . .
And speaking of “alligators” . . . they are no longer on the endangered list. But the same cannot be made of a certain little bird, that nests on the eastern bank of the Rio Grande.
gadfly
(It’s Ten PM in Albuquerque. Do you parents know where your little bird is?)
(Apologies to all the "English Majors" out there.)
Vern apparently is unconcerned about what is going on with Eclipse. Things are apparently going so well at Eclipse, Vern has time to be involved in distractions:
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=f3dd9802-67ff-448e-ae5a-04d0e037ff06
Dave
Vern is very much concerned, and that is the reason for the distraction.
gadfly
(Is there a hidden message here somewhere? . . . "I Con?" . . . a 'Freudian slip', as it were? . . . 'just a fleeting thought that crossed my tiny brain. Nah! . . . couldn't be!)
Also on the DayJet front I was going through some old articles as well as the relatively recent article about the so-called credit crunch stopping DayJet. Prior to DayJet taking customers, DayJet said they needed a fleet of 25 for the network effect to kick in:
Gruen-Kennedy says that at 25 aircraft, the operating model will prove itself as the “network effect” sets in; he compares the DayJet model to a network like a telephone system that requires numerous users to be useful.
http://www.dayjet.com/News/recentArticles/AviationWeekandSpaceTechnology_07022007.pdf
However, after Eclipse got going and had more than 25 aircraft (they have 28), they then say they needed even more aircraft:
Since receiving its first Eclipse EA-500 very light jet in July 2006, the DayJet fleet has grown to 28 EA-500s...Iacobucci’s e-mail stated, “Our projections have always indicated a network of 30-50 ’line’ aircraft serving 20-30 fully developed DayPort markets was needed to reach critical scale.”
http://www.dayjet.com/News/recentArticles/AviationWeekandSpaceTechnology_07022007.pdf
So DayJet wants the world to believe they only needed two more aircraft and then they would have been raking it in, but since they didn't have 2 more aircraft, they had to mothball half their fleet. Oh, also in that 2007 article I found this:
Iacobucci says the
business model and optimization engine have an upper limit of 1,200-1,500 aircraft.
So back before DayJet started commercial operations, the "upper limit" of their projections was 1200-1500 jets. If there is anyone out there who still takes Eclipse's order book seriously, that has got to give you pause that the Eclipse order book size is based on the most optimistic of optimistic projections of DayJet. DayJet themselves never took that order seriously...not that they've said so outright, but its just another nail.
Vern is very much concerned, and that is the reason for the distraction
I wonder how long until Eclipse/ETIRC/DayJet all call the aircraft the new new thing and perfect for air taxis. Afterall the forward priced ICON costs about the same as the depost on the FPJ. Hey! There's an idea...aside from offering FPJ depositors to switch to being depositors for the Frankenjet, why doesn't Vern offer depositors ICONs in exchange for their deposit?
b94.5
#I doubt any reputable lawyers would take this on contingency and paying legal fees to pursue this is useless.#
this is where you're wrong ...!
on my side of world , it is called "to have ethics" ...
if you accept that any scumbag roll you in the mud ,if you accept your side to be a jungle where some can play with far-away legit it is up to you ...
here it is not working this way ...
so if screwed depositors want to screw the screwer , here is my 1 cent :
take the case to Luxembourg financial authorities ( it is free !) , you may not get your money back , but you'll know about the reality of the money in E-trick , and who is officially behind ...
costs = nothing !
results = no more lies possible from the "Merry band" ...
at the same time , E-trick is supposed to be owner of at least 50% of all paper (TC.PC.CERT.) so are you going to accept that some Kleutsack (flamisch term it is better you don't know) got your money , and now can go freely under other skies to do it again ?
i am not 100% sure , but it seems to me that if Luxembourg is in the line of a scam , they won't let think go smooth ... (they protect the core of their business [secrecy] quite efficiently ...)
so in the case of a "programmed bankruptcy" (to collect the assets for 0 and dump creditors) it might be of some good to check if a post-bk scam can be killed straight in its egg ...!
(the banking laws of Luxembourg concern ONLY banking secrecy ... , they usually deal very tough with all other aspect of business ,example : when the First New York bank got into their nets for laundering , they didn't get a pass ... before this event , only to start to talk about opening an account in Luxembourg branch , the minimum of immediate deposit was 2 million $ ...)
at the question , how many staff should a billion+ $ firm should have as employees ?
the question is wide , it depends on how the business is organized ...
Coca-Cola is notorious for the very few staff they have in their main office ... Nestlé is notorious as well for same reasons... (franchised)
but , nonetheless , they have more than E-trick ...(which is , in my knowledge = 0 )
my main office is in Lux. , i am not dealing with Billions and darkened skies but i have 2 employees working for only me , in my own firm office ... not in a dropping-mail/answer-calls kind of office ...!!
Did anyone see the lead article on Aero-News today? "ANN Lead Sponsor, Eclipse Aviation, Soars Into Oshkosh 2008"
"The company has opened an Eclipse Service Center (ESC) in Albuquerque as well as Gainesville, FL, and is in the process of adding additional ESCs in Albany, NY and Van Nuys, CA. Eclipse currently has more than 1,300 employees, nearly 2,700 orders for the Eclipse 500 and over 400,000 square feet of facilities available to ramp production up to as many as four jets per day."
Guess no one told ANN that Eclipse isn't exactly paying its rent on the facility it already has, let alone opening new ones.
2,700 orders MINUS the 1400 orders Dayjet effectively cancelled, plus all of the customer order cancellations since the price increase.
"...as of right now, over 200 completed airplanes have Certificates of Airworthiness."
Actually, the correct total is zero completed airplanes.
ANN has just lost all of it's credibility with me.
julius :
nothing wrong ...
i was just pointing out that (since i know Luxembourg) most of the "strangely dubious" peoples that i met were always talking about this place suggesting it is somewhere where connections , money or influence can let you do almost all that you like ...
the reality is very different , they are as tough as protecting the banking system as they are tough to fight the ones trying to take others for stupid , with their country being in the middle ...
and peoples from Luxembourg are VERY good for one thing = Do Everything as written in the book ...
nothing less and nothing more , not exactly what it seems to be here ...
so Lux. for tax heaven = yes no problem !
Lux. as a place to organize whatever activities to screw some others = you face the laws , both Europeans and locals ...!
i smell (only a personal opinion ) that E-trick chose Lux. for all the shadow that all bandits can create into the imagination of others ...
Adam = 0 deliveries
Employess = 200
Eclipse = 0, NADA, NO deliveries
Employees = 2000
PAID employees = ??????
i have just been in front of building referenced as Etirc-Russia address in Moscow ...
as one can expect (be careful i did not get inside the building , but will find a way to know ...) it is nothing special ...
one of the many old buildings "sliced" into a galaxy of small rooms rented as offices ... usually one or two rooms ...
but nothing like office for Billion(s)$ investors...
moscow is the temple (in Russia) for showing your financial wealth , so a business that want to "darken the sky" having such , may be regarded as ....!!!
on top of that , in Russia IN ANY bank , when you want to do something with them (business , loan , credit card backed with bank account ) the first thing they check is : what you ALREADY possess on russian soil that they can take , if things go wrong ...
off course , they give you only a fraction of the value (usually about 60/70%)
so the natural question is :
if you have nothing , what can you borrow : answer : nothing !
where are the 100 millions $ coming from ? (for the plant in Ulyanovsk) a bank-loan ? very doubtful ...!!
So Roel ALSO has another venture capital firm named "Favonius"? The same name as his Maxi yacht. How precious! The address of "Favonius Ventures" is listed as: Mollaan 1a, 2061 CR Bloemendaal, the Netherlands, on their web site. It looks to be in a neighboorhood that is a mix of so-so businesses and houses. Google Earth shows the address to be 2.3 nautical miles north of the address listed for ETIRC, which turned out also to be a health club. Not to be confused with ETIRC Aviation which turns out to be the address of the Luxembourg offices of a Swiss bank with a singularily bad reputation. "Favonius Ventures" also has a London address listed. I'll tell you, that Roel is one busy dude. No wonder he can't be bothered to write refund checks, especially with the Maxi race season getting underway and all. Just be patient about the refund checks; will next Tuesday do?
Fred,
You are right about Luxembourg. Years ago we used to fly cargo into LUX and dealt with Cargolux a lot as they flew the same type of airplanes then as we did. Everything was on the up and up with Cargolux, the handling agents, and the airport authority, and anyone else in Luxembourg we did business with.
airsafety :
most of my deposits are in Luxembourg , i am not as crazy as i may sound ...
but "honesty and down to the point" is in the genes of peoples from Luxembourg ...
some like it , some don't !
just to give you an occurrence of this "state of mind" :
last time i have been to my bank , i withdrew some cash ...had a talk with manager then i left
to do some shopping in town ...
after 600 or 700 meters , i heard someone walking fast behind me , had a look back and saw one of the clerk working in bank , attracting my attention with a discreet sign of the hand ....???
she went after me , because when i left the bank , some coins dropped ( one "10 cents" and one "5 cents")
she saw it , asked what to do , and went after me ...
i asked her , why didn't you call me ? answer : because yelling at peoples in streets is not polite !
why you didn't keep it for next time i'll be around ? answer : because we would have no idea on what line of accountancy we should put it on till your return !
i phoned the manager to thank them , and was happy to offer a hot chocolate to the clerk ...
i tell you : they are nuts ! but in the good way ...
Fred,
I agree. Cargolux and the company I worked for would send airplane and engine parts worth quite a bit of money back and forth across the Atlantic with only a phone call, and, except for the customs paperwork, take care of the details later.
"Raburn Out At Eclipse; Pieper Named New CEO".
It's about time.
Hopefully Pieper will turn things around, or at least provide enough liquidity to Eclipse so that a few wise position holders will have have the opportunity to bail out and get their deposit back.
Gunner - where does this leave things with the subpoena?
New post up, and I promise you its worth reading...
Shane
Flyjets said: "Look for C-level employee leaving EAC within the next couple of days."
Great call, Flyjets. The only hope now is for Roel, if the sun hasn't fried his brain on his Maxi yacht, is to find a retired aviation manager of proven performance, integrity, and leadership ability, to run the show. If such a person would even work for Roel is an open question.
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