ECLIPSE
125
Fairchild
St.,
Suite
100
Charleston,
SC
29492
April 24, 2009
VIA: E MAIL TO CUSTOMERS
TO: ALL ECLIPSE 500 OWNERS AND DEPOSITORS
FROM: MIKE PRESS (S/N 4) AND MASON HOLLAND (S/N 473)
At the request of our fellow owners and depositors (Customers) we are pleased to provide the following update on our progress.
We continue to work towards our goal of acquiring the assets of Eclipse Aircraft Corporation (EAC) and immediately restarting service, modifications, and limited production of the Eclipse E500 aircraft.
In the past three weeks, both Mike Press and I have visited over 30 cities across the country and presented our plan directly to those aircraft owners and potential investors who have a sincere interest in our shared vision. To date, we have given our presentation “face to face” to over 300 aircraft owners and prior deposit holders. We have also given over 50 individual WebEx presentations for those we could not reach in person. We have adapted, and continue to adapt, our plan to meet the collective needs of our fellow customers and our investor group. Based on our meetings, we have well over 95% acceptance of our plan.
Why are we doing this? Well, it needs to be done. What we have is a situation where over 1.5 billion dollars was spent in developing a product, creating a company, building a manufacturing line, and most importantly; the successful production of 260 jet aircraft that are the most fuel efficient twin-engine jet aircraft in the world today! However, these 260 planes are not complete, someone needs to do this! The vision is not complete, this plane deserves to be produced, and someone needs to do this! We are going to do this!
Sometimes unfortunate turns in our economic cycles produce rare opportunities. Due to the lack of investment funding currently available in traditional forms and due to the current worldwide credit crisis there are few, if any, qualified bidders raising their hands to bid on the assets of EAC. Therefore, we believe there may be an opportunity to acquire these assets in a cost efficient way.
Why create a profit-making entity for this effort? Well, because without an incentive for profit, customers and investors have no one to hold accountable for their actions. It is a simple fact, if we do not produce a product of value for the customer (which includes fair pricing, timely service, and quality products), then the customers will not pay us and we will not have the opportunity to earn a profit. We then will be held accountable to our shareholders who trusted us and put their investment dollars at risk with us.
Our group is prepared to purchase the EAC assets for the right economic terms. However, if other bidders “price up” the assets past our value of the assets we will have to make a tough decision. It is simple economics. If we pay too much for the assets then we have a larger basis in cost that needs to be serviced by the ongoing entity in order to achieve a fair investment return. We will not purchase the assets at a price above the point in which we would have to charge what we believe would be above market rates for aircraft or services.
In our view, the big losers if we do not win the bid for the assets are the current plane owners. We are the only viable bidder raising our hand and offering our investment dollars at risk to immediately provide service, immediately begin modifications to complete the existing fleet, and prepare for the start of limited production when the markets allow for more product.
If you have not done so, please reach out to us and view our plan. We continue to offer individual interactive presentations either in person or via a WebEx presentation/phone call. In the mean time, in the pages attached to this letter, you will find more detail on the status of the asset bidding process and a series of FAQ’s and our replies as they relate to our plan and progress.
Our tag line is “Customer First” and we mean it! We will complete your product, we will increase its value in the market place, and we will continue to develop this fantastic aircraft and complete the vision of the world’s most fuel efficient jet!
Sincerely,
Mason Holland (S/N 473) Mike Press (S/N 4)
Thanks for that, Mike and Mason. As mentioned on the blog yesterday, your entire missive is a bit long for the blog (yes, it really is a thorough update) so herewith the highlights:-
Sincerely,
Mason Holland (S/N 473) Mike Press (S/N 4)
Thanks for that, Mike and Mason. As mentioned on the blog yesterday, your entire missive is a bit long for the blog (yes, it really is a thorough update) so herewith the highlights:-
Enclosures: Official Status Report as of April 24, 2009
DATE: APRIL 24, 2009
SUBJECT: STATUS REPORT RE: OUR BID TO BUY EAC’S ASSETS
THE BANKRUPTCY
EAC’s Ch. 7 Trustee has not announced a plan for the sale of the assets (the Assets) of Eclipse Aviation Corporation and its subsidiaries (collectively, EAC), and we are not aware of one.
EAC’s principal secured creditors effectively control EAC’s bankruptcy insofar as they must consent to waive their liens on the Assets in order for EAC’s Trustee to sell those Assets.
EAC’s principal secured creditors are the collection of hedge funds that own EAC’s secured senior debt (the Note Holders) and Al Mann (Mann), who is both a Note Holder and furnished EAC its debtor-in- possession (DIP) debt. The Note Holders hold almost $600M in EAC secured senior debt, and Mann (separate and apart from his interest EAC’s secured senior debt) holds approximately $10MM in EAC DIP debt.
EAC’s principal secured creditors effectively control EAC’s bankruptcy insofar as they must consent to waive their liens on the Assets in order for EAC’s Trustee to sell those Assets.
EAC’s principal secured creditors are the collection of hedge funds that own EAC’s secured senior debt (the Note Holders) and Al Mann (Mann), who is both a Note Holder and furnished EAC its debtor-in- possession (DIP) debt. The Note Holders hold almost $600M in EAC secured senior debt, and Mann (separate and apart from his interest EAC’s secured senior debt) holds approximately $10MM in EAC DIP debt.
EAC’s Ch. 7 Trustee can, among other things, choose to dismiss the bankruptcy and allow EAC’s principal secured creditors to foreclose on their liens, or he can sell all or substantially all of the Assets; provided that EAC’s principal secured creditors are willing to waive their liens on the Assets. We expect the Trustee to eventually do the latter.
OUR BID
In the last 30 days, we have travelled to more than 30 cities and visited with more than 300 Eclipse 500 (E500) owners, depositors, vendors and other potential investors. Further, we have spent hundreds of hours trying to reach some form of agreement with the Eclipse Owners Group (EOG) led by David Green and Kevin Padrick, among others, to ensure that the owners’ interests are properly reflected in our plan of operations (our Plan) and in an effort to win the EOG’s support for our bid. We have had good success in building a consensus for our Plan among the hundreds with whom we have visited. We have been unable to reach a consensus with the EOG on anything.
OTHER BIDS
Others are rumored to be interested in fielding a bid for the Assets. The EOG proposes an evolving plan that calls for a not-for-profit service cooperative and relationship with
Hawker-Beechcraft to provide service; however, we believe it will be very difficult for the EOG to assemble the capital required to win in an open bidding process. Based upon our current information, we believe EAC’s principal secured creditors are asking for a significant amount of cash (far in excess of the EOG’s expectations). Further, Daher-Socata, a French company and a Chinese company are interested in the Assets. We have met with both of them as has the EOG and other potential bidders. What we have been told, is that both Daher-Socata and the Chinese company want majority control of any partnership and could move the entire factory overseas. We do not believe giving control of the IP or the assets, to a foreign company is in
the best interest of the Eclipse customers; owners and/or deposit holders. Further, there is Phil Friedman (Friedman Plan) and Peter Reed. We are aware of the Friedman Plan update letter that went out to the owners on April 10th 2009. We believe that this letter was an attempt by Friedman to demonstrate to the owners that his plan was more favorable than the EOG not-for-profit plan.
In the last 30 days, we have travelled to more than 30 cities and visited with more than 300 Eclipse 500 (E500) owners, depositors, vendors and other potential investors. Further, we have spent hundreds of hours trying to reach some form of agreement with the Eclipse Owners Group (EOG) led by David Green and Kevin Padrick, among others, to ensure that the owners’ interests are properly reflected in our plan of operations (our Plan) and in an effort to win the EOG’s support for our bid. We have had good success in building a consensus for our Plan among the hundreds with whom we have visited. We have been unable to reach a consensus with the EOG on anything.
OTHER BIDS
Others are rumored to be interested in fielding a bid for the Assets. The EOG proposes an evolving plan that calls for a not-for-profit service cooperative and relationship with
Hawker-Beechcraft to provide service; however, we believe it will be very difficult for the EOG to assemble the capital required to win in an open bidding process. Based upon our current information, we believe EAC’s principal secured creditors are asking for a significant amount of cash (far in excess of the EOG’s expectations). Further, Daher-Socata, a French company and a Chinese company are interested in the Assets. We have met with both of them as has the EOG and other potential bidders. What we have been told, is that both Daher-Socata and the Chinese company want majority control of any partnership and could move the entire factory overseas. We do not believe giving control of the IP or the assets, to a foreign company is in
the best interest of the Eclipse customers; owners and/or deposit holders. Further, there is Phil Friedman (Friedman Plan) and Peter Reed. We are aware of the Friedman Plan update letter that went out to the owners on April 10th 2009. We believe that this letter was an attempt by Friedman to demonstrate to the owners that his plan was more favorable than the EOG not-for-profit plan.
While we agree that the Friedman plan is better than the EOG plan, we still believe that it contains fatal flaws and bad assumptions. For one, it still spreads the NRE burden over the current fleet of owners for the first two years instead of capitalizing the company initially with the vision of an earlier production ramp-up and spreading these NRE costs over future production.
OUR PLAN
Our Plan champions the interests of both the E500 owners and depositors. After we buy the Assets, we intend to promptly resume service and support for the fleet (S/N 1-260) and begin preparations to resume production (with S/N 261). We have spent hundreds of hours working with former EAC employees and consultants determining the most efficient methods to resume service, support AND production, and we believe our Plan reflects best practices. We cannot provide specific pricing for our goods and services until we determine the price we’ll be required to pay to buy the Assets and the cost to us for the materials and labor required for us to resume service, support and production. However, we have assembled a group of trained Eclipse personnel and are in the finishing stages of the development of the modification process documentation. As soon as we purchase the assets of EAC we will be able to perform the first upgrades and validate our pricing and labor estimates. We stand committed to pricing work for modifications with margins well below industry averages for comparable parts. More importantly, we will spread any additional engineering burden for those modifications over a much larger fleet number than the current fleet of 260. Our investors consider this an investment in the company to keep these prices as low as possible and spreading the engineering burden cost over the anticipated future fleet size.
OWNERS
Our Plan includes a series of priorities for E500 owners –
Service and support are our 1st priorities – We are prepared to promptly provide service and support related goods and services to the fleet through the existing Eclipse Service Network (ESN). Further, we are currently in discussions with veteran European service organizations who wish to join the ESN. Upgrades are our 2nd priority – We are prepared to promptly begin upgrading the current fleet, including the DayJet aircraft. ESN personnel are working today to complete the upgrade documentation (Service Bulletins) to perform ETT, AvioNG, FIKI, AvioNG 1.5 and EASA upgrades. The ESN is currently hiring some of the most experienced E500 technicians available in the market to position themselves to perform these upgrades at the lowest, reasonable material and labor costs to the owners. Production is our 3rd priority – Once service, support and upgrades are back online and well underway, we will turn to resumption of production. We intend to complete the E500 aircraft on the production line as our first step in validating the feasibility of resuming production. These aircraft will be completed to EAC’s current production specification and sold with a full factory warranty. We will offer these aircraft first to the Production Line Group members who contracted with EAC to buy them, and, if they do not determine to buy them, then to others. Actual full production of new aircraft will begin as soon as market conditions warrant; we anticipate sometime in the next 12 to 24 months. New production will expand the fleet and thereby (1) build the E500 brand and each owner’s market liquidity and value and (2) reduce his direct operating costs. The owners will enjoy material, immediate benefits from an expanding fleet. By contrast, in the absence of an expanding fleet, the owners will suffer as the E500 will be relegated to the status of a failed and discontinued aircraft, and its (1) brand, (2) market liquidity and value and (3) direct operating costs will move against owners.
Our Plan includes a series of priorities for E500 owners –
Service and support are our 1st priorities – We are prepared to promptly provide service and support related goods and services to the fleet through the existing Eclipse Service Network (ESN). Further, we are currently in discussions with veteran European service organizations who wish to join the ESN. Upgrades are our 2nd priority – We are prepared to promptly begin upgrading the current fleet, including the DayJet aircraft. ESN personnel are working today to complete the upgrade documentation (Service Bulletins) to perform ETT, AvioNG, FIKI, AvioNG 1.5 and EASA upgrades. The ESN is currently hiring some of the most experienced E500 technicians available in the market to position themselves to perform these upgrades at the lowest, reasonable material and labor costs to the owners. Production is our 3rd priority – Once service, support and upgrades are back online and well underway, we will turn to resumption of production. We intend to complete the E500 aircraft on the production line as our first step in validating the feasibility of resuming production. These aircraft will be completed to EAC’s current production specification and sold with a full factory warranty. We will offer these aircraft first to the Production Line Group members who contracted with EAC to buy them, and, if they do not determine to buy them, then to others. Actual full production of new aircraft will begin as soon as market conditions warrant; we anticipate sometime in the next 12 to 24 months. New production will expand the fleet and thereby (1) build the E500 brand and each owner’s market liquidity and value and (2) reduce his direct operating costs. The owners will enjoy material, immediate benefits from an expanding fleet. By contrast, in the absence of an expanding fleet, the owners will suffer as the E500 will be relegated to the status of a failed and discontinued aircraft, and its (1) brand, (2) market liquidity and value and (3) direct operating costs will move against owners.
DEPOSITORS
Our Plan includes a series of priorities for E500 depositors –
Coupon Program – We are prepared to offer each E500 depositor credit (a Coupon) toward the purchase of new E500 at our then-market price. We will have a certain number of Coupon-eligible aircraft in production at all times, and we will sell and deliver those aircraft to E500 depositors who wish to apply their (otherwise lost) deposits to the purchase of a new E500.
Factory Reconditioned Aircraft – Further, we are prepared to purchase aircraft from current owners, recondition those aircraft so they comply with EAC’s current production specification and then sell those aircraft with a full factory warranty. For example, we are prepared to process the DayJet aircraft in this manner. This program will (1) enable owners to reasonably exit their aircraft, if they would like to do so, and (2) provide E500 depositors and others an immediate opportunity to own an E500. Like new production aircraft, we will have a certain number of Coupon-eligible reconditioned aircraft for purchase by depositors from the “old Eclipse”.
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Our Plan includes a series of priorities for E500 depositors –
Coupon Program – We are prepared to offer each E500 depositor credit (a Coupon) toward the purchase of new E500 at our then-market price. We will have a certain number of Coupon-eligible aircraft in production at all times, and we will sell and deliver those aircraft to E500 depositors who wish to apply their (otherwise lost) deposits to the purchase of a new E500.
Factory Reconditioned Aircraft – Further, we are prepared to purchase aircraft from current owners, recondition those aircraft so they comply with EAC’s current production specification and then sell those aircraft with a full factory warranty. For example, we are prepared to process the DayJet aircraft in this manner. This program will (1) enable owners to reasonably exit their aircraft, if they would like to do so, and (2) provide E500 depositors and others an immediate opportunity to own an E500. Like new production aircraft, we will have a certain number of Coupon-eligible reconditioned aircraft for purchase by depositors from the “old Eclipse”.
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Will you charge an “access” fees for service?
No.
No.
Is Roel Pieper still your partner?
No.
No.
Who are your partners?
There are three “founders,” although our family is growing daily, as we continue our diligence and structure our bid to buy the Assets. Our Founders are Mike Press, Mason Holland and John Cracken. Our friend Raul Segredo has returned to his day job as the owner and president of Avionica in Miami, FL. While he supports our efforts, he has elected not to continue as a partner.
There are three “founders,” although our family is growing daily, as we continue our diligence and structure our bid to buy the Assets. Our Founders are Mike Press, Mason Holland and John Cracken. Our friend Raul Segredo has returned to his day job as the owner and president of Avionica in Miami, FL. While he supports our efforts, he has elected not to continue as a partner.
Who will manage the new company?
We have retained the services of a highly respected aviation consulting firm who will aid in our transition process during the first year of our operations and with their help we have also sourced our lead candidate for the CEO position of our company. The timing is great. He is finishing up another venture and is excited about being a part of the continued vision of the EA500 VLJ. He is well respected in the aviation community and has deep experience in leading a large company responsible for the manufacturing, production, and service of jet aircraft. In addition, we have assembled a transition team of 15 highly respected aerospace industry professionals, many of whom will be placed in key management roles within our organization.
We have retained the services of a highly respected aviation consulting firm who will aid in our transition process during the first year of our operations and with their help we have also sourced our lead candidate for the CEO position of our company. The timing is great. He is finishing up another venture and is excited about being a part of the continued vision of the EA500 VLJ. He is well respected in the aviation community and has deep experience in leading a large company responsible for the manufacturing, production, and service of jet aircraft. In addition, we have assembled a transition team of 15 highly respected aerospace industry professionals, many of whom will be placed in key management roles within our organization.
CONTACT INFO
Please feel free reach out to any of us at your convenience if you have questions or if you would like to schedule a presentation of our plan –
Mike Press – mpress@spjets.com
Mason Holland – mason.holland@benefitfocus.com
John Cracken – jcracken@croinc.com
Please feel free reach out to any of us at your convenience if you have questions or if you would like to schedule a presentation of our plan –
Mike Press – mpress@spjets.com
Mason Holland – mason.holland@benefitfocus.com
John Cracken – jcracken@croinc.com
Well, that's a pretty big post, and I've left out several pages, which went into forensic detail which I felt the blog would not be interested in. I wish these chaps the best of Irish (luck, of course) and hope that whoever ends up with the assets is able to rescue something from the ashes. Other bidders continue to promote their own plans, which I'm sure will get somewhere, eventually. The 'security detail' of 19 'ex Eclipsers' are still getting paid to keep an eye on the plant, which is good news, and the 'Nuclear Option' of forcing the note holders to release the IP to owners directly might even achieve an early end to the sale process.
All in all it's been an interesting week. My own feeling is that there is at most a month left before final dispositions are made for what remains of EAC, but I have been wrong before, in part due to my ignorance of bankruptcy practice in the U.S.
At that point I believe our blog naturally faces a crossroads. We all need to think about direction(s) 'we' might take. I would welcome suggestions to the usual address (eclipsecriticng@gmail.com) which will be included in a forthcoming headline post.
If, of course, I get any.....
Shane
331 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 331 of 331Fred THANK YOU. As the US leaders seems hell bent on it’s march from capitalism and towards some new Social, Marx, Commune---ism we have a lot to learn about protecting what we have earned so it is not taken from us. Those of you that have lived thru it are much better prepared at that than we are. Thanks for the advice and any ideas you have please let us know. Shane knows how to get a hold of most of us. Maybe you could put together a news letter for us members so we can learn from others mistakes!
After all this FPJ blog started out all about a little scam in ALB and this is just a new scam being run on the private people of the US. We were all trying to help others out and look out for their best interests.....
uglytruth, Fred, et al,
Check out what Peter Schiff has had to say about the economy. Or you could read his book, Crash Proof. He basically predicted what is happening some time ago, and is predicting the same thing that Fred is concerning hyper-inflation.
And Ford just outsold Toyota for the month of April.
The Ford Fusion is apparently kicking the Toyota Camera's ass. Or is it a Camry?
Just shows what difference a good CEO (ex-Boeing) makes, compared to that lame excuse for an executive Wagoneer (or was it Wagoner) at GM and the sorry asses of Roberto Nardeli and LaCerdo at Chrysler.
Maybe the Eclipse backers could have spared say $500M of their $2B and Paid Mullaly to run the joint for a year.
Gad, you are over complicating the math.
Hint: Just calculate the average acceleration necessary for your half pound gas cap to accelerate from ZERO relative velocity to 100MPH relative velocity in the 4 ft or so that separated the initial gas cap location from the windshield.
We have mass, v0, v1, distance.
Work out time and acceleration.
If you choose, you can even change it into a grade school equation and fix time assuming a constant 50MPH (deltaV/2) over the distance.
Come-on. You can do it.
What was the acceleration needed in Gs?
baron
No, you do it! I've slept since then, and admit that I cannot do it, then or since.
gadfly
(When numbers get beyond ten, I begin counting on my toes . . . and look twice as smart.)
LOL - OK using average speed of 50MPH, which is way, way, way in your favor and 4th grade math, it would be about 85 Gs, give or take.
Using real math, which I'm too lazy to do, prob like 200 Gs.
That is one devilish gas cap - LOL.
Only thing I've seen accelerate faster is ex-wife reaching for a credit card ;)
Baron, if I remember mechanics properly, the acceleration of the gas cap would be about 819 m/s^2 or about 83 g's assuming 100 mph final speed and 4 feet of distance
Reality is correct. I did the grade school math using 50MPH as the average speed and it is in fact 83Gs average acceleration.
You win the blog prize - a used Eclipse gas (err kerosene) cap.
Congrats.
Now figure out what force would need to be applied on the 1/2 pound cap to achieve that acceleration.
And explain how that force could possibly be generated, given that the gas cap was:
a - likely in the low airflow boundary layer.
b - shielded from the slipstream by the cowling hump
c - in the relatively low airflow wash near the centerline of the propeller.
Or you could just call it the night and go have a beer.
Your choice ;)
As for me, I have to decide between:
a - a cold beer
b - a warm meal
c - a hot body
d - censored
Uglytrhuth :
1° you're welcome !
2° protecting yourself in USA is a lot more difficult than it is for us ... as soon as you get a US passport , your bend to pay tax to IRS whether you live in or out ...!
something totally different in European system , where you pay tax (as income , richness [yes , it does exist]) only if you are making in the country and basically speaking 2 completely set of mind about tax : the countries in which you pay where you actually make the money or other countries in which you pay where you are actually living (6 months + one day a year) like france ... since this is EU , we have lots of treaties against double tax and for freedom of circulation for money ...
3° as for any kind of newsletter :
sorry i am not really interested ...since i don't want to make a kopeck (and don't need as well) on such ...
on top of it , it is against my own belief !
do you know who is the best person for deciding what to do and how to protect yourself ?
A: YOU and nobody else !
it is something i have been fighting against in my job ...
no one needs a Guru , the best is to be your own guru !!
especially with money ...
we are (mostly) in the now situation BECAUSE too many was blindly (and foolishly , sorry) following some self-made or proclaimed Guru ...
4° in the current situation , Hyper-inflation is almost sure to happen ...
i use "almost" because there is a small possibility that H.I. does not occur :
it is where Timothy won't succeed into blowing enough hot-air in inflation in order to make it "Hyper" ...
nothing really out of the hat , or need to be extra-clever to understand ...
what is the worst problem of USA , now ?
A:its Debts ! (especially the ones in hands of foreigners )
what is the most simplistic way to reduce the effect of that mass ?
A: Hyper-inflation , since almost all debts debts in USA are libeled in US$ , the value would be greatly reduced ...
at same time it present mostly advantages for the administration (there is no politic into this = Electors want results , not for next generation , for feeling some relief now ...this is where "politic maturity" is utterly important : someone putting you deep in the shit , is not always against you , even if it sounds a bit crazy = sometime , it is a real gift !)
if there is H.I. :
peoples would feel like "money is flowing again" even if it is only an impression ...
debts would have a lesser value against foreign counterpart ...
Foreign made products will become a lot more expensive : one the US problem what peoples buy is mainly made out of country , hence the "crazy chinese triangle" (they lend you money to buy their product , to cash in the profits they will lend you again to buy their products and again and again ....)
etc... etc...
i would risk a "wild analyze" , i wouldn't be surprised the "Chrysler-Fiat" deal would be about the fact that your "big-heads" know that rough-times are ahead and that after buying "MonsterCar" for a long time , now the Purchasing-power is going to fall therefor the majority would be able to buy "cheap-cars" ...
they cannot proclaim they know , so they act !!
Fiat is a specialist of this type of product , USA may become a very juicy market for them ...
Fiat could produce in USA , currency spread problem and uncertainty are gone , if made inland ...
you see only advantages !!
at same time Timothy was Head of N-Y Fed's when the biggest bubble in human history was Blown just under his window by Allan&Ben ... he didn't see it !
so if you conjugate this elements , future say Hyper-Inflation !!
PS: in France Fiat means "Féraille invendable à Turin " rougly translated :
"metal scrap that wouldn't sell even in Turin" (the origin town for Fiat)
;-))
Gad,
Are we still referring to the gas cap seeking Eclipse owner at Aircraft Spruce asking for a gas cap for his Eclipse, and being told that it would no longer be a fair trade considering the current state of affairs?
“ . . . wee”
No, . . . actually they told him to "put a lid on it!”
gadfly
After a dearth of press coverage of Eclipse goings on, some interesting articles in the past day or two on AIN online, enjoy the reading
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/demise-of-eclipse-opens-the-field-for-mx-service/
excerpt: Demise of Eclipse opens the field for mx service
By Matt Thurber
May 1, 2009
The current status of the 259 Eclipse 500 very light jets that were delivered before the manufacturer went bankrupt in February remains tenuous. Any airplane that is airworthy can fly, whether or not its type certificate is abandoned or belongs to a bankrupt manufacturer, but maintaining airworthiness becomes increasingly difficult when no parts are available, maintenance and engineering data is locked up in bankruptcy proceedings and previously ignored problems continue occurring.
.....
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/owners-search-for-way-to-keep-eclipses-flying/
Owners search for way to keep Eclipses flying
By Matt Thurber
May 1, 2009
Although a number of proposals have been floated to buy the assets of bankrupt very light jet manufacturer Eclipse Aviation, none has attracted enough support or interest from the bankruptcy court to receive final approval. The efforts include: Eclipse Jet, founded by Eclipse 500 owner and reseller Mike Press as well as depositor Mason Holland and former Eclipse chairman Roel Pieper; Eclipse Services and Support, a non-profit cooperative effort launched by Eclipse operator Linear Air; Eclipse Owners Group, another non-profit co-op created by Eclipse 500 owner David Green and management company Jet-Alliance; and New Eclipse Acquisition, backed by Phil Friedman, CEO of Harlow Aerostructures.
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/eclipse-investor-bankrupt/
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/eclipse-embroiled-in-legal-actions/
Eclipse Embroiled in Legal Actions
By Matt Thurber
May 1, 2009
...Another recent legal action was launched by a coalition of law firms–Steve Siegel Hanson, Herrold Herrold, Sneed Lang and Malloy Law Firm–that hopes to file a lawsuit against officers and directors of Eclipse Aviation. The complaint would address the Eclipse leadership’s “grossly mismanaging the company and for taking down payments on aircraft that the company had no reasonable possibility of delivering and using these deposits to fund past debts rather than to build the aircraft on which the down payment was made.”
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/delayed-vlj-deliveries-allow-time-for-transition/
Delayed VLJ deliveries allow time for transition- interesting comments from E500 sim mfg.
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/epic-launches-pair-of-twins-1/
Epic Launches Pair of Twins
May 1, 2009
Business Aviation
Bend, Ore.-based Epic Aircraft launched a pair of turbine twins at the Sun ’n’ Fun Fly-In in Lakeland, Fla., last month....
Epic CEO Rick Schrameck dubbed the $5 million Elegance a “next generation King Air 350,” while he called the $2.2 million Genesis “an Eclipse 500 killer...
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=795880&category=ALBANY
HondaJet flight plan moved back
Groundbreaking for facility at airport now delayed until 2011
By ERIC ANDERSON
In a motion filed yesterday, the trustee for the Eclipse bankruptcy proceeding again declared his intent to "sell the Eclipse Assets as soon as possible" but needed a 90 day extension to sort thru all the issues.
During this extension, he would continue all contracts and leases to preserve the value of the company.
Originally, the trustee had 60 days from the March 5 filing of Chapter 7 which would yield a May 4 deadline...the 90 day extension runs the date out "to and including August 3, 2009".
He further stated that:
"Non-disclosure agreements have been executed by representatives of potential purchasers and site visits have been provided and/or provided in the very near future. Bids for the Eclipse assets are being accepted."
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/04/28/325735/business-aviation-briefs.html
LINEAR APPROVAL
US air taxi operator Linear Air has received Federal Aviation Administration approval to provide Eclipse 500 very light jet pilots with required recurrent training. ...The recurrent training programme includes computer-based systems training, classroom training and flight ...
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20090428/ARTICLES/904289995/1003/NEWS?Title=Gainesville-airport-gets-new-tenants
Gainesville airport gets new tenants
Tuesday, April 28, 2009
The Gainesville Regional Airport has landed a couple of new tenants, including an air ambulance maintenance service and a concessionaire, and will receive partial rent payments from an outgoing tenant that had stopped paying after declaring bankruptcy.
Air Methods Corp...opened a maintenance center in the former hangar of the defunct DayJet air taxi service..It will pay an annual rent to the airport of $52,746, the same as DayJet.
...
The airport also will receive lease payments for the Eclipse Aviation service facility after reaching an agreement with the jet maker's bankruptcy trustee. The agreement includes a month-to-month lease of $44,000 a month, 75 percent of the original lease, according to airport spokeswoman Michelle Danisovszky.
The 60,000-square-foot factory service center still houses aircraft and equipment, she said.
Several companies were formed to take over Eclipse's assets, and Danisovszky said the trustee is expected to decide which one relatively soon. The airport does not expect the winning bidder to use the Gainesville facility, she said.
So, the Trustee has asked for more time, through August 3, now. Interesting since the deadline for filing claims was already in August.
For the calendar challenged, August 3 is 13 weeks, 3 months away.
Assuming everything transferred on August 4th (a Tuesday, how fitting), how soon does anyone believe anything could be flowing from the 505?
How long to re-establish vendor relationships, re-establish credit agreements, restart vendor production lines, rehire key engineering staff?
How long to wade through all the data to determine where things are, what state they are in and what can be done?
How long to complete fixes that were in development when the lights out?
This is like watching someone getting dragged to death, behind a tortoise.
In the case of Mann v. Pieper filed with the New York Unified Court System #600849/2009 to collect on the $10m Note from Pieper (the monies were used to fund the DIP activities):
On April 17, Roel's attorney filed a motion to dismiss based on the notion that improper methods had been used to notify Pieper that he had been sued (Service of Process).
On April 21, Mann's attorney responded by citing the Promissory Note signed by Pieper that specifically "waived their (Etric & Roel's) right to process of service, and instead accept service pursuant to the e-mail notice provision in the parties agreement".
Mann's attorney further stated:
Etric and its millionaire Dutch Chairman (Mr. Pieper) have essentially delivered the following message to Plaintiff: "We're not paying you back. Too bad for you. Try to find us in Europe if you can."
To be continued........
This is like watching someone getting dragged to death, behind a tortoise.
This has to make the top ten list!
Coldfish,
Keep in mind, the trustee and his staff are on an hourly rate.
They're not going to close the books til the milk runs dry.
Understood Stan, the interesting thing is that all the various would-be EAC 3.0's are out trying to make it sound imminent, better hurry, special if you order before midnight tonight, I am waiting for the Billy Mays late night infomercial.
The simple fact of the matter that nobody else is saying is if the owners want needed parts and fixes before this time next year they need to start right now, on PMA's and STC's - and that takes money.
Is their money better spent travelling to 30 cities to talk to owners or in seeking PMA?
Is their money better spent on press releases, webinars, LLC or other business entity formations that may never be able to do what they are formed to do, or in working with willing vendors and other partners to begin on needed STC development?
Mann getting shafted by Pieper and ETIRC should show clearly that no matter how good the contract or the agreement, lying down with dogs pretty much always gives you fleas.
It also clearly illustrates why any potential partners will require money upfront - the carnage left in the wake of this failure continues to mount and takes a while to sink in, like radiaton poisoning.
It is really too bad about what is happening to Mann. By all accounts he is a good man who truly believed in the vision and always championed the cause of the rank and file at EAC.
How naive, unequipped and idiculous can Al Mann be?
Is he one of those guys that by circumstance made money in one industry, and convinced himself that he is a "super-investor"?
We have a long list of these types: Al Mann, Paul Allen, etc. All of those guys have gone from disastrous investment to disastrous investment while their "fortune" shrinks and shrinks.
But Al Mann, come on that is tops.
Did I understand the deal correctly? Al Mann and RP agree to put $10M each in DIP. Except that RP doesn't really put the money, he give Mann a piece of paper instead, and Mann puts all the money. This after RP's repeatedly false claims of being able to come out with funds.
How ridiculous can this guy (Mann) be? Doesn't he have any business sense?
That is why I have a heck of a lot of respect for Vern. He had the vision/dream, he lined up the investors, he lined up buyers, he lined up the pieces of the hype (DayJet et al).
But he was disciplined. He did not start (AFAIK) throwing his good money into the bad money pot, chasing it.
Al Mann, OTOH, threw ever increasing sums of money chasing it.
Whatever faults Vern may have, communications style, circle the wagons quirks, etc, he showed drive and discipline. I respect that. Mann appears to have been just Vern's and RP's lap bitch.
We have a long list of these types: Al Mann, Paul Allen, etc. All of those guys have gone from disastrous investment to disastrous investment while their "fortune" shrinks and shrinks.And they've all got Vern to thank in turning their big fortunes into small fortunes.
Baron,
"That is why I have a heck of a lot of respect for Vern"
Me too !!
.)
Q: Do you suppose politics could be a factor?
Raburn: Sure, and blame me for that. When Netscape, Sun and others couldn't compete in the market against Microsoft, they called in political favors. I saw my friend Bill Gates get attacked by the FTC and Justice Department as a result. I didn't want that to happen to Eclipse, so I spent a lot of time in D.C. trying to make FAA, Congress, NTSB and everyone else understand what we were trying to do. The program got a high profile and Marion Blakey put Eclipse on her dashboard because she thought it was important to the industry. So now the liberal left and unhappy government employees are teaming up to get at FAA management and are using the Eclipse to do it. If I don't remain in aviation, it's because of crap like this.
Q: That high profile has been drawing unfriendly attention for some time.
Raburn: There's been some personally nasty stuff said about me. Several people have even called me liar. That bothered me because I've never said one thing that wasn't vetted internally and didn't have a good shot at achieving. Some people have a difficult time distinguishing between taking a risk and failing, and saying something you know you couldn't do. To succeed with a new aircraft from a new company, you have to set your sights really high to compete; it has to be so much better for people to accept the risk. We did that and accomplished a lot – we've developed and certificated an very innovative aircraft, built a factory, training center, three service centers and delivered 250 aircraft so far – but not as fast or as much as we had hoped.Vern Raburn, Without ApologyVern says he never lied to anybody and when he plays politics it's OK, but when others do, it's bad. Does anyone disagree with Vern?
Yes, Dave. I forgot to add one other thing he lined up - political support and cover from Bill and Marion and all.
You have to respect the guy. He did EVERYTHING right upfront. It was only when Williams and the Avionics partners couldn't deliver that things started to unravel.
Sure Baron, lots of folks end up being billionaires, literally one of the top 300 or so richest human beings on the entire planet, by accident. Happens all the time.
Mann has donated more money to two universities than Pieper or Raburn have ever been, or will ever be worth, collectively.
He puts his name, his connections and his money out there - what did these frauds put out there of their own?
Where the hell is your oft vaunted respect for guys who take risks and put themselves out there - Al is the real deal, RiP and Wedge are pretenders by comparison.
Mann makes Pieper and Rayburn look like total pikers.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the link to el Wedgo's Aviation Week interview.
-----------------------------------
Wedge:
"I dedicated 11 years to the project".
I do admire him for his, er, dedication.
Indeed, I most sincerely hope el Wedge becomes reassociated with the program.
"Q: And to where or what will you be moving?
"A: It will be six months before I know. I know that whatever area I choose, it will be fun, challenging and hopefully I'll make positive changes."
Some sort of Eclipse think thank, I suppose... (I don't want him to rush- I hope he has LOTS OF TIME to think).
The only bigger joke than Vern Raburn is Aviation Week. The horses have bolted the barn; the barn has burned to the ground, and now Aviation Week decides to do a puff-piece on a Jim Bede on heavy steroids. Politics? How about "Hey Vern, how did your two repair stations, you know the ones in FLORIDA and NEW YORK get to be managed out of the NEW MEXICO FAA FSDO?". Or, "Vern, how on earth did the DayJet operating certificate ever get assigned to the Dulles FSDO in VIRGINIA?" Or, "Did DayJet ever pay for the airplanes they were flying? If not, why was the arrangement kept secret in as much as the heavy DayJet order was what influenced so many people, who lost millions and millions of dollars, to place their own order?" What a disgraceful joke of a publication.
"You have to respect the guy. He did EVERYTHING right upfront."
Off your medication again, I see. I dont have to, and I cant. When the going gets tough, one often sees the true measure of the man. Hard to respect sleazy business practices under any circumstances.
ASM, the rest speaks for itself but you can manage satellite locations under a single 145 certificate if the necessary info is in the Ops Manual.
"It was only when Williams and the Avionics partners couldn't deliver that things started to unravel."
OK, you would have to believe his intial price of $779,000, and his intial delivery date, and his intial specs, and his intial fleet partner Nimbus, to think he did everything right...
BTW, he was an "integrator"... and this means his basic job was to choose the right systems and component suppliers.
He failed miserably at this...
So, he should be pictured with a dunce cap on the walls of the reception area where the Collier Trophy resides.
He fooled a lot of people, but my sense is, he tried to fool a lot more, and failed at this too... BUT, I have always said, he was great at rasiing the money - man... was he ever good - because the rest of the situation was so thin...
- right product? NOPE
- right market size/price? NOPE
- right suppliers? NOPE
-right mix of personal and financial community connections, political connections, PR, advertising, dishonesty, grandiosity and BS...
yup
congrats.
Baron,
I have to admit- while sometimes we agree, and sometimes we don't, this topic has certainly added some zeal to the blog !!
:)
------------------------------------
I would say, while Wedge is quite an aviation enthusiast, I think he was about as qualified to run an aircraft company as a 10 year old kid that builds model airplanes.
(Maybe less qualified- a 10 year old knows lying is wrong).
Nothing wrong with a 10 year old (or, any age) kid building model airplanes- I just wouldn't think it prudent to give one $3B to "play with"- might as well give 'em a book of matches too.
Wait a minute- that's what happened !!
----------------------------------
As far as investors go, the top five reasons to invest in Eclipse were:
1) Wedge used to work for Microsoft.
2)
3)
4)
5)
BTW, he was an "integrator". WOW ...
ATM , you are closest to the best description on the whole plot ...
this guy (Wedge) had a bad-trip on the Microsoft times ...
never really came down on earth !
so , as any good looser/follower , he tried to reproduce what he has been the most successful in :
taking "Electronic circuit on PCB" and mixing them together to obtain a computer ...
only one flake : if in PC it works quite well (one circuit doesn't work = throw it away and change for other one )
in some other matter , especially plane it seems, it doesn't work that way ...
too bad he had this "cheap" pc integrator mentality ...!!
as for respect to his deed : i have about the same for rocks on a road ...just before i kick them ! ;-)
"you can manage satellite locations under a single 145 certificate if the necessary info is in the Ops Manual."
Good point, but why would you want to when the original service center at ABQ was brand new and had exactly NO track record at all? The awarding of the repair station certificate by the FAA was under the same cloud as the TC and the PC. Giving satellite authorizations to Albany and Gainesville was just the FAA poking itself in the eye, again. Thank heaven the FAA has apparently pulled all three (or one, depending on how you look at it) repair station certificates.
Bill Wilbur – Sterling Capital Management: I don’t know whether you folks – I was late to the call too. Not by my choice. I was on hold for 14 minutes. I don’t know if anybody else experienced that problem, but did you mention anything in your statement at the beginning about Eclipse, where that is.
Craig LaBarge: Yes. But we did not mention anything about Eclipse. Eclipse is still – the future of Eclipse is still kind of hung up in bankruptcy court. It was converted from a Chapter 11 to a Chapter 7 and it’s still hung up there.
There are several groups that have come forward with statements that they would like to acquire the intellectual property. I think at least a few of them have the -- appear to have the ability to raise the money or produce the money when the time comes. But I do not have a schedule.
I don’t believe the court has established a schedule for any kind of an auction of those assets. I say we continue to feel that were well positioned to benefit to some degree from that when it finally happens because we were the supplier and are the supplier of record on the cable assemblies and wiring harnesses on the aircraft. Some of which will require replacements in order to implement the necessary upgrades on the 259 planes that the Eclipse did deliver.Bill Wilbur – Sterling Capital Management: Craig, are you more or less optimistic today than you were say 60 or 90 days ago that you will realize something out of this?
Craig LaBarge: Well let’s see. 60 or 90 days ago I was – about 90 days ago we were expecting that the Chapter 11 restructuring was going to go through. So I have to say we are more probably optimistic then. However, I’d say we’re more convinced then ever that we will realize some – we will see some real opportunities. We will have some revenues involved in the upgrade and retrofit of those aircraft that are already out there. Not as optimistic about any kind of resumption of production on that aircraft in the foreseeable future.
Don Nonnenkamp: And then let me add that we are not optimistic about any recovery from the estate.
Craig LaBarge: Yes. Any recovery we have will come from sales to those parties that are operating the aircraft, at least for the foreseeable future.LaBarge Q3 Earnings Transcript
Coldfish,
Further, if there is a suit filed against Vern and his merry band of robbers for “grossly mismanaging the company and for taking down payments on aircraft that the company had no reasonable possibility of delivering and using these deposits to fund past debts rather than to build the aircraft on which the down payment was made,” expect further delays in the resolution of the BK matter.
Both the plaintiff and defense will petition the BK court for access to all company records.
With discovery and depositions, the process would not likely be completed even by the end of this year.
While IANAL, it is hard to imagine the BK judge turning the company over to the new owners who might contaminate or destroy evidence.
Plus, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of criminal fraud which would require full access to all of the company documents.
All good points Stan.
I am encouraged that the individual owners seem to be coming to similar conclusions - the BK will take months to settle, and every day with no effort underway on workable, real-world solutions is another day planes either go or remain AOG, another day the planes remain incomplete, another day without the needed fixes.
Stan and CWMOR,
I see Vern Raburn in a basement shredding documents. He’s using a jury-rigged Williams EJ22 engine in start mode, but is only able to do a few pages at a time due to starter duty-cycle limitations.
And its is NTSB official - contributing factor to Mustang C510 crash at Carlsbad was a "flickering PFD display", inop electric pitch trim and other electrical fault indications.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=LAX08FA117&rpt=fi
And surprise, surprise, the same FAA employee union that was complaining of improper certification process for the Eclipse, is now, in typical fashion, complaining about the certification standards/process for the B787 certification.
The jets, change, the industry changes, but industrial unions never do.
And, in case anyone missed, another one goes to Asia as Bangkok-based
Imprimis acquired Piper.
And, according to Aboulafia, only Embraer (6.3%) and Dassault (1.9%) will gain market share in biz jet market in the next decade, compared to previous decade.
All others lose share.
Very nice job, our trade unions (both at OEMs, FAA, etc) and Washington politicians and press are doing demonizing the industry and making it very, very hard for anyone to do business here.
Keep it up.
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=28759
For those dreaming of G1000s on their EA500, Elliott aviation complete the first G1000 upgrade to a B200 in April.
Cost: $375K+labor ;)
Before and after pictures here
Or $375K installed - conflicting info on it.
A bargain, either way. Add some $65M in certification costs, divided by 260 planes, that will only be another $250K per EA500 upgrade.
Caveat, ALL owners have to agree to the upgrade upfront and sent their $250K to P.O. Box 255, Dreamland, NM.
Hi Baron,
I'm glad you're back from the weekend stint in community service- must be the police union that has you all stirred up.
( ?? :)
(re: unions- a "spirited response" will follow for the amusement/torture of our fellow bloggers when time allows mid-week or so- I enjoy the debate).
Now that I'm out of weekend lockup for the workweek too...
ASM,
"Any repair, whether by an individual or service center has to be done in accordance with FAA-approved data. FAA AC 43.13-1B is an entirely adequate resource to quote for minor delamination repairs to a fairing."Paul,
"43.13 is not 'approved' it is acceptable."Goat,
I disapprove of the distinction between "approved" and "acceptable", and find it an unacceptable attempt to confuse the issue (!! :)
(I don't need any more confusion that I already have !! )
FAR 43.13
Or CFR blah blah. I'm going to call them FAR's until the cows (or goats) come home.
----------------------------------
Fairing delaminations, I think, are not too worrisome-
Thanks to Kathy for providing details on the wingroot fairing issue-
"the wing to body event was caused at least in part by not using the conical washers (EAC calls them grommets) under all the screws holding the fairing in place."Soccer Dad
"our components were not structural components and would be relatively easy to repair any delaminations."My thoughts also-
But then I read Kathy's response:
"BUT...the SRM states that damage limits haven't been determined and to contact EAC for repair instructions."That's understandable legal coverage for EAC until they had time to address the issue- but leaves the owners in a bit of a theoretical pickle right now.
But in practice, I imagine most shops will use past experience as a determiner for whether they choose to repair a minor crack or try to find a replacement from a grounded airplane.
Additionally, Advisory Circular 43-18 seems to provide some relief.
In particular, "Approved Data...include...maintenance instructions approved by an FAA designated Engineering Representative (DER)".
I had not thought of it before- but I guess EAC could become a profitable "shell" company, just by acting as a middleman distributor for spare parts, between the fairing manufacturer (etc) and the operators, even if they didn't have a single engineer or mechanic on staff- maybe even from an Indian telephone center (!?!) and a small warehouse and shipping department in the states, with a couple of QA inspectors.
(Just wait until those Indian telephone service centers unionize!!)
Baron,
Thanks to you and CWMOR for the reminder re: Piper (CWMOR noted it on Friday 11:10 AM post)- I hadn't heard anything about it myself.
A couple of months ago I read Piper might discontinue the a couple low-end models, a single and a twin (can't remember which ones), guess we'll see.
----------------------------------
Also, about the Mustang crash you mention:
April 19, 2008
Carlsbad, CA
"The airplane (Cessna Mustang) crossed the threshold 15 knots fast...and touched down past the midway point of the (4900 ft) runway." Too slow to go, too fast to stop, he elected to do a ground loop and the gear collapsed.
Autopilot had disengaged.
Trim inop.
Both left and right PFD's flickered.
Encountered IMC during descent.
Sounds like an (understandably) pretty frazzled dude - I think he did a job - the ground loop was rather creative solution to avoid "the downsloping cliff" at the end of the runway. Nobody hurt, airplane damage "substantial" (but probably repairable).
Capricious one,
Regarding the Mustang incident, the pitch trim was not inoperative. The electric trim may not have been working, but the manual pitch trim wheel was working perfectly. If he was flying the airplane out of trim, with "heavy flight controls", it was because he didn't trim it out manually.
According to the NTSB report, the only PFD that malfunctioned was the copilot PFD. Even without an autopilot, he would still have had a flight director on the pilot PFD. If that PFD had failed, he would still have the standby altimeter, airspeed and attitude indicator.
I'm glad nobody was hurt, but there's really no excuse for this pilot's poor performance.
As to the delamination issue, it's pretty clear that the issue is not fairings, but engine tail cones. They're made of carbon fiber and have had delamination problems all along. A hotter-than-usual start, even though short of a hot start, is enough to blister the inside of the tailpipe.
As far as I know, there is no field repair for these parts.
Re: 787,
If Boeing is 2-3 years late with first flight- do you think they *might* be tempted to ah, rush, things a little to catch up?
Poor configuration control and documentation got 'em where there are now- I have my reservations whether that has been properly addressed yet.
Oh, wait a minute- I think this is the issue Baron is referring to.
By the way, how much money does the union make by insisting Boeing adhere to the rules??
Ah, none. Boeing fighting the EXISTING rules has already "made work" for the FAA, and cost the tax payers money.
How much money does Boeing make by breaking the rules- I don't know, but you can bet it's easily a $100M or more in delays and redesign. That's would buy a LOT of lobbyists- and influence- even if it's the same price, the results are much quicker.
FAA loosens safety rules for 787
Interesting to note the article states "the move has stirred intense opposition inside the local FAA office from the technical specialists — most of them former Boeing engineers"
"The national union representing about 190 Seattle-based FAA engineers this past Tuesday submitted a formal critique to the agency, calling the new policy "an unjustified step backward in safety."
"In a lightning storm, the critique said, the less stringent rules could leave a commercial airliner "one failure away from catastrophe."
FAA management, contradicting its own technical staff...
I am DARN PROUD of the FAA certification foot soldiers for not rolling over.
"The critique submitted by the FAA certification engineers' union, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association union (NATCA), acknowledges that the existing regulation is strict.
"It may have to be revised in some way, said one FAA certification specialist, who, like other agency engineers interviewed for this story, asked not to be named to avoid retribution".
This "union issue" isn't about pay, it's about protecting safety enforcement.
But it IS a money issue- PROFITS for Boeing.
I'm all for that- but the Boeing arguments- AGAINST impartial safety EXPERTS- sounds just like their lame defense of the 737 rudder actuator- for years they fought that one.
So, thanks for bring the matter to my attention. I'm going to "pass along" the news, and encourage everyone else to do so too- I'm tired of this roll over for industry crap- these guys work for the tax payer, and they know it- it's time for the FAA administration to realized the taxpayer funds the FAA, not industry !!
Contact your Congress
Contact the GAO
Contact the FAA
The Seattle Times reporter covering the story:
Dominic Gates:
206-464-2963
dgates@seattletimes.com
And, although she's probably a place keeper soliciting a lucrative lobbyist job in industry after retirement, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and let her prove herself; demand her resignation if she doesn't support the Seattle ACO engineering staff:
Lynne A. Osmus became Acting Administrator
(I've found it's helpful to enhance accountability- put the GAO and FAA and your congressman on the spot- let them know, you are contacting ALL the other parties, with their names, the issue, and what you want them to do about it, and when you contacted them).
-----------------------------------
Those darn safety-oriented public servants. Always worried about stupid stuff, like 15,000 gallons of high level nuclear waste.
Hi RonRoe,
Thanks for the correction on manual trim (I wasn't sure if the Mustang had manual trim- why the heck didn't he use it??), and only copilot PFD flickering (Left PFD "flashed a warning", but did not "flash"/flicker).
I was thinking the same thing about extra degree of safety offered by the standby instruments in the Mustang, especially with IMC (sounds like in this case, it was brief, and the pilot had good visibility for the landing).
Shane elaborates on the engine tailcone delamination (May 01, 7:30 AM "Eclipse designed, and was nearly ready to field, an improved tailcone with an aluminum insert"), too bad it hasn't been released yet.
Like panning for gold, every now and then a nugget shows up. And RonRoe has presented us with a “nugget”. If, what he says is true, then the use of any kind of re-enforced composite in the near vicinity of the tail end of a turbine shows a short-cut that should be disturbing . . . in my personal opinion. Personally, I would think that any material used should be able to withstand above 1,000 degrees F. Yes, I’m prepared to be called stupid or unknowledgeable or worse . . . but at least such discussion is valuable in stimulating further thought for future design.
gadfly
(And I like it when someone actually discusses the main subject of the blog . . . i.e., Eclipse!)
Baron,
Thanks for the King Air pics- I think the Garmin upgrade is a good deal for $375K+, but fear it might be more involved- and expensive- on an Eclipse, due to the more heavily integrated Avio suite.
You're right about development costs being a bite. I think it's going to take some deep pockets to have a happy ending- either a substantial investor, with the deep pockets to restart production and amortize the avionics R&D over future production, or deep pockets on the collective part of the current owners, to pay for the R&D amortized over the existing fleet.
Hi Gad,
I've come to the conclusion you are right about the gas cap.
And I think right about the tailpipe too.
"I’m prepared to be called stupid or unknowledgeable or worse"
(Me too- I take all the compliments I can get !!)
.)
Goat
In my ignorance, I put in a weight of 4 ounces and 4 square inches on the “gas cap”, as a rough guess. It might have been six ounces and 12 square inches of cross sectional area (which would have skewed all the numbers, greatly) . . . but who knows, and at this point, who cares. Bayles died as the result of something that happened fast, and un-expected . . . often a domino effect in rapid succession.
Many times, I have been privileged to have good teachers, who respected even the “ignorant” questions, and in the process led me on to an understanding of the issue, that was far more important than the immediate answer. And as I have taught many classes, myself, on many subjects, I have remembered those valuable lessons . . . and have been privileged to help others understand various subjects . . . equipping them to go on to greater accomplishments.
It’s easy to “put someone down”, but far more rewarding to assist another to a greater level of understanding and success. (And provides real reward to the “teacher”, I might add.)
gadfly
(“Ignorance can be fixed, but Stupid is forever.” And . . . “Ignorance is a condition, but Stupid is a choice.” Or, for the medical types: “Ignorance is (often) acute, but Stupidity is chronic.”)
Hi Gadfly,
"Or, for the medical types..."
I'm glad our pal Dave I. is recuperating from his bad experience:
"I was bedridden for days earlier this week after consuming a pork tailcone taco"(That's one thing about those axial flow engines- things go straight through !! :)
"UN for the HILLS!!! FPJs are TEEMING with INFECTIOUS DISEASES!!!"At one time, it was infectious enthusiasm- but as Gad points out:
"Ignorance is (often) acute, but Stupidity is chronic."
(I think most of the patients are recovering nicely, with only mild irritation at times :)
Speaking of stupid- I wonder what Wedge would do differently if he were to start all over, with another $3B...
Dave I,
"Would you like a Wing Fairing Fajita with that?"I wanted to add fiber to my diet- that's probably a better choice than the Tailcone Taco- as RonRoe reminds us that is carbon fiber (great for dental floss, but maybe not such a great diet supplement...)
.)
Maybe I'll just have the Laminated Dessert instead...
Ok Maybe I can help, or maybe not, please don’t let me overstep my lines.
You know last time I talked with an FAA Inspector or three, each and every one of them told me that the 43.13 was "approved data" on several different occasions during our meeting. That conversation took place, Um? Yep! Last Friday, and the AC is still dated 2008.
To clear things up I have read so far in this post of comments. There are a couple things I found a little off.
There is Seven busses on the so called FPJ.
PMA issues are being worked on every day, I know of several companies on the verge of FAA approval. not to mention those that already are like Astronics.
Garmin can be integrated without changing any of the hardware on the Aircraft. And Avio 1.5 does absorb the problems with the autopilot.
The de-lam is not an issue of hot start so much as it is from differential pressure from maintenance procedures, sometime (very seldom) operating. If you truly are following the maintenance procedures and your ground crew is paying attention the de-lam can be avoided. Our crew blistered about 30 - 40 in production till we figured out what was causing the issues. I discussed this and how to avoid it, in what I call a Maintenance Tid- bit. This recent publication was launched about two months ago. These issues are surfacing now that more Mechanics are working on this AC outside eclipse SC's.
If you would like more solid information about these off the blog send me a post with your Email and I will add you to my list of contacts
I would like to take a moment to quote one of my very favorite authors.
"There are three Kinds of lies; Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. " Mark Twain.
I hope this Helps.
Hmm, install G1000 but don't rip out AvioNfG, I bet that is a real payload winner of an idea.
I bet Garmin is just dieing to get involved in sorting the interface issues there.
FJT,
You assume too much, sir. Nobody said anything about installing a G1000 without replacing Avio.
When Shawn said "Garmin can be integrated ...", he was talking about installing a GPS400W (similar to a GNS430W, but without COMM or NAV radios) connected to a discrete CDI. Not exactly integrated, but it apparently works nicely.
There are several E500's with this mod flying now. By the way, the GNS400W substitutes for DME, allowing flight above FL240, and into DRVSM airspace, assuming the plane and crew are otherwise qualified.
I didn't know about differential pressure delaminating the inside of tail cones, but I do know that service centers smoked one from time to time.
Another cause was starter-generator problems. If the S/G was not working properly, it would cause a slow start and almost always blister the tailcone.
There is a difference between "acceptable" data and "approved" data. An example of "acceptable" data would be an unapproved repair manual. When used as a basis for repair AND when the FAA Form 337 is signed by the FAA, it becomed "approved" data, but only for that one installation. FAA Advisory Circular 43-210 goes into detail. Advisory Circular 145-6 goes into detail concerning major composite repair by FAA certified repair stations. Both are available on the FAA website.
Hi Shaawn,
Thank you for the information on the tailcone delams- and the kind invitation to be added to your email list.
(Regarding the number of busses- are Byteflight and/or FlexRay among of them?)
FJT,
I thought the same thing, about combining Avio and Garmin- rather seems like it would be making like things more complicated, rather than less. More supportable though.
RonRoe,
Thanks for the details of incorporating the Garmin GNS400W with Avio-Now.
(Baron mentioned "For those dreaming of G1000s on their EA500, Elliott aviation complete the first G1000 upgrade to a B200 in April", and kindly posted pics of the conversion, a 1995 model, I believe).
ASM,
I gratefully accept and humbily approve of your helpful deliniation of "acceptable" data and "approved" data.
:)
Bill E.
To answer your question yes byte flight is among these but, Flexray? not so much.
To go into futhur detail about the delam. The slow starter was probably not the cause, if I had to guess, but I am sure it really appeared that way. The reason I say that is beacuase, I felt the same way for some time. The engine appears to have a slow starter becuase N1 is dragging. Keep in mind that the Generator is not connected to N1. What is occuring is the N1 is a free floating fan with about .010 movement forward to aft. Walk out to any eclipse jet and tug lightly on the N1 blades, You will feel them move fwd and aft. (Please don't do this break somehting and then Hold me liable; if you choose to do this use all common sence). The Gap between the blades to the Blue Ice on the inlet is between .008 and .015 so when you light N2 and the engine expands the n1 drags the inlet just enough to direct all exhaust in one direction long enough to delam the Tail cone. Keep in mind this is only After several start stops the engine has two temps an internal and an external. So please have a ground crew at least in the uncertain times while starting your favorite FPJ and have the watch closely the engine you are starting, because if the Fan drags or stops you do have enough time to stop it if your hand is on the Engine control panel.
Good Luck Happy Flying.
When Shawn said "Garmin can be integrated ...", he was talking about installing a GPS400W (similar to a GNS430W, but without COMM or NAV radios) connected to a discrete CDI. Not exactly integrated, but it apparently works nicely.
There are several E500's with this mod flying now. By the way, the GNS400W substitutes for DME, allowing flight above FL240, and into DRVSM airspace, assuming the plane and crew are otherwise qualified.
Thanks for clarifying that we were talking about the halfarsed lobotomised G400 Installation rather than a real EFIS with FMS.
Obviously back when the Position holders were on an I.V drip of kool-aid, that G400 kludge looked like a first temporary , then permanent "solution".
You have to admit, it is a bit of a joke to operate a nearly new jet with G400's.
Is there any other country than the USA which recognises this "Synthetic DME" nonsense? No european country does. ICAO doesn't either.
BEG, the point of posting the NTSB report on the Mustang accident, is that the critics here go on and on and on about "the Avio NG unreliability, bad design, an accident waiting to happen, blah, blah, blah, look how much better the Mustang is, blah, blah, blah, blah".
And here, we have an NTSB report, with electrical/avionics/G1000 PFD failures found to be a contributory factor to an actual accident.
And not a peep from the critics. Some humility and balance is needed. But that is just my opinion.
Baron as I recall we talked about Blinky the Wonder Mustang before. As the NTSB stated, this was a pilot-error issue, with avionics contributing. Are there AD's for this? No.
FWIW, we have also talked about avionics issues as regards Scarebus and Boeing incidents, even the F-22. In the end though, it is apples and oranges.
Where is the Mustang equivalent of the Midway incident? Where is the Mustang equivalent of the carbon/coking issue and FL370 restriction? Where is the Mustang equivalent of the as yet unmet promises? Where are the Mustang AD's? Where has the Mustang fleet been grounded?
This is the Eclipse Aviation Critic, you could start a Mustang Critic if you wanted to, you might even have something to write about, by 2015.
No 'additional' humility or balance is required here IMO - at least not of the critics.
Mr Kettle, I'd like you to meet Mr. Pot.
CW, this is all good.....but.....FACT remains....there is one NTSB report pointing to aircraft failures on the Mustang contributing to an accident and there are ZERO NTSB reports with any aircraft faults contributing to any EA500 accidents.
That doesn't make the EA500 better than Mustang in all the areas that you mention. But the record is the record. And as of now, the EA500 has a better aircraft-systems-related accidnet record than the Mustang. Period.
Meanwhile, SPX is inches away from 900 and DJI is hovering around 8,400, close to 2000 points higher than when the bottom was called on this very blog.
Not bad. Lets see some more plane/jets purchases.
Baron, you know I love you man but that's a pretty myopic way to look at this don't you think? There are two accidents/incidents involving Eclipse 500's for which the probable cause has not yet been determined by NTSB, the PA overrun and the Midway incident. Both have reported issues involving control/shutdown of the engines.
The FAA issued an immediate grounding AD following the Midway incident, so to suggest the EA-500 is somehow safer than the Mustang, for which there are still, years later now, no AD's is just cherrypicking a little too much I think.
I mean, there's picking nits and then there's picking nitz man.
And as of now, the EA500 has a better aircraft-systems-related accidnet record than the Mustang. Period. may be that is related to numbers actually flying ?
what would you prefer :
one that seldom flies , so doesn't have bad tracks (but don't look too close ...)
one which fly a lot , hence the tracks looking like worse ...
blinding yourself is not an answer to problems ...
it is only "ostrich policy" ( see no problem is no problem at all)
a bit like the current situation in markets : something directly related with illusions (and all the billions injected)
US banks are still going bankrupt = the crisis is not over !
btw , i was reading a comment from Head of Dassault : the guy is quite clear , Golden years for private are over ...
at the question "do you think you will see it again ? "
A: "Not in my career and probably not in my lifetime ...!"
that leave you to wonder ...
may be that is related to numbers actually flying ?
I thought about the same thing, unless you know total hours flown it is impossible to compare. If you compared between two "normal" biz jets you could probably be not far off limiting the scope to age and number of aircraft however the case of EA500 is so "abnormal" and utility of this aircraft over last years is so suspect that we may be comparing apples with oranges.
"one NTSB report pointing to aircraft failures on the Mustang contributing to an accident"
Actually, it was the DISTRACTION of the pilot that was cited as the contributing factor. It does help to read the report.
Sorry CW, I don't mix incidents with accidents. Nor, as I said, am I implying that the EA500 is "better" than the Mustang or has better systems.
I am stating the record. ZERO accidents for the EA500 implicating any aircraft feature/systems/failure. ONE accident for the Mustang implicating aircraft systems failure as a contributing cause.
Nothing more nothing less.
And Michal, I'm not talking about accident rates either.
This is purely anecdotal and part of the law of small numbers. No conclusions can be derived from it, other than there is documented electrical/avionics failure on the Mustang contributing to an accident. And none for the EA500.
Some time this blog has difficulty with simple statements. Some always seem to read implied meaning.
"Baron said there is a record of zero and one, so he is saying that one is better than the other blah, blah, blah.... lets argue ALL the reasons why the EA500 is bad over and over again".
It is a SINGULAR AND SIMPLE statement, derived from the NTSB accident record of the two aircraft types. Why can't you guys take it as it is. If I wanted to make another point, I'd make it.
Now, how about celebrating an event that will do more for GA/BizAv than anything discussed here lately.
SPX closed above 900 on its way to break 1000 by summer.
Cool, right. Fred, pop a cork, all others, uncap a beer.
Boy, the schooling of Obama in the Chrysler Bankruptcy court began in earnest today.
I mention this here, because, though stale now, it is an interesting read applicable to the previously proposed 363 sale of Eclipse assets.
In the motion below, the lawyer for the Chrysler's non-TARP-taker secured creditors opposes Obamas 363 sale (or should I say gifting) to the UAW and Fiat as "Not arms length" and "not in good faith".
He then further shows why it would be in violation of the 5th amendment to the US constitution, to strip the secured creditors of their collateral property to gift them to the UAW, Fiat and the US Govmt.
This is the full text of the oposing motion
This is the summary of the argumentsNow lets see if this is still the USA or if we have been turned into a full banana republic where the chief can do as he pleases.
"..if we have been turned into a full banana republic where the chief can do as he pleases."
No, that was George Bush and Dick Cheney. Our new president taught Constitutional law and seems to venerate the separation of powers in the Constitution.
I am stating the record. ZERO accidents for the EA500 That's OK, anecdotal or otherwise but such statements are not very interesting since they tell us basically nothing of value. I could lock my car up in the garage and claim I have ZERO repair or maintenance bills and it will be equally interesting ...
No, that was George Bush and Dick Cheney.Who said this was mutually exclusive? Violating the Constitution seems to be a bipartisan executive branch sport.
Our new president taught Constitutional law and seems to venerate the separation of powers in the Constitution.Then the administration should leave it to judicial branch to determine what the secured and non-secured creditors should receive. I don't have Baron's dislike of the unions, but I do find it highly distasteful that the executive branch is trying to control a bankruptcy that particularly benefits a lower ranking creditor in a bankruptcy, particularly when the beneficiary of the executive branch involvement is a politcal supporter. Such actions set themselves wide open for abuse by opening the door to the politicians in the executive branch getting favorable treatment for those invovled in bankruptcies. The executive branch should leave the handling of creditors in bankruptcies to the judiciary. I'm not a fan of hedge funds, but I found the remarks about what the hedge funds did (trying to protect their own investors, which they have a fiduciary responsibility for) in rejecting the executive branch's interference to be wholly inappropriate.
Re: Chrysler.
What Obama was trying to do, is preserve manufacturing capacity in the USA, and 35000 direct jobs, and probably 3-5 times that many indirect jobs.
Believe it or not, I can remember when that was considered a good thing.
-----------------------------------
"But court documents filed by Chrysler in New York on Thursday showed that Chrysler’s re-emergence from bankruptcy could take until Aug. 28, or four months from now. Bankruptcy always contains some element of unpredictability, and the minority of debtholders who oppose the new arrangement could argue in court that the company is worth more to them in liquidation.
"But administration officials said they believed that it was highly unlikely that a bankruptcy court judge would side with the minority when those holding 70 percent of the debt had signed off on the arrangement."
NYTimes May 01, 2009
----------------------------------
Sometimes it's helpful to look at who is talking.
"Thomas Lauria, who accused the White House of threatening the creditors with humiliation..."
So, Who's Thomas Lauria ??
Let's see- he's been involved in:
Washington Mutual, the largest bank failure in US history;
Mirant Corporation, one of the largest producers, generators and marketers of electricity in the world (can you say- racketeering ??)
Adelphia Communications (?telecom meltdown?)
WCI Communities, one of the largest home builders
Corporación Durango, the largest paper and wood products company in Mexico.
The Williams Companies, Inc., one of the largest pipeline and energy companies.
The IT Group Inc., one of the world's largest environmental and remediation companies.
This guy is an industrial-class ambulance chaser.
Whitecase Law Firm
----------------------------------
Reckon he's the same guy ?? :
Surgeon General Urges Banning Cigarette Ads Aimed at the Young (Circa 1994).
"The Surgeon General renewed her criticism of the R. J. Reynolds Company's use of Joe Camel cartoon promotions and challenged the Federal Trade Commission to act on several petitions filed in the last two years to prohibit the ads. She noted that the cartoon camel was recently joined by a female partner, Josephine, which, she said, was aimed at encouraging girls to smoke. I feel that both Joe Camel and Josephine Camel are not in the best interest of our citizens or our young people," she said"
Thomas Lauria, a spokesman for the Tobacco Institute (an industry group):
"There is no science behind the accusation that advertising causes smoking initiation...We don't need to target kids and we don't."
Thomas Lauria
What Obama was trying to do, is preserve manufacturing capacity in the USA, and 35000 direct jobs, and probably 3-5 times that many indirect jobs.
Believe it or not, I can remember when that was considered a good thing.But we are talking about seperation of powers. I made no statement whether the ends were good, but rather was commenting on the means. This has to do with seperation of powers and that shouldn't be violated as an means to accomplish some end no matter how good the end is. It really bothered me with the public vilification of the creditors by the President as the creditors were only doing their job. How would you have liked it if Bush publicly vilified the organization that your 401K was in heavily because the organization was trying to do its job protecting your nest egg? How would you have liked it Bush if interfered in a BK where Haliburtion was a creditor and Bush saught to cut a deal for them and then vilified the creditors who objected to this? All this interference is wholly inappropriate and there are already thoroughly well-established procedures for dealing with different classes of creditors in bankruptcy as this is a judiciary matter. If you let the executive branch do something because you think its ends are good this time around, that can turn around and bite you because the next time around under a different administration they can do that same thing for ends that you don't think are good. I can see very bad things happening with the executive branch interfering with bankruptcies, particularly when the creditors involve political supporters - it just begs for abuse over and above the seperation of powers matter.
When you can't understand what is being said, look at who is talking.
Re: Constitutional Abuse.
I agree with ASM ("a full banana republic where the chief can do as he pleases").
The Cheney/Bush Presidency was the most secretive in my lifetime. So far, Obama's is very open- I say that is a good sign.
And as our industrial manufacturing base further erodes, banana farming might be the only vocation left.
------------------------------------
Hi Dave,
"I do find it highly distasteful that the executive branch is trying to control a bankruptcy"
Actually, they were trying to AVOID a bankruptcy.
"particularly when the beneficiary of the executive branch involvement is a political supporter"I am sensitive to the topic of political abuse of power (VERY sensitive). If there were an election coming up within a few months, I'd give the "buying influence" argument some heavy consideration.
But- there isn't, and this isn't about "buying influence"- it's about buying food, by those affected by shuttered plants. Some of the Chrysler guys will get by okay for a while (80% salaries with government DIP), but the many times more suppliers affected will be affected.
The "Federalist Papers"
For those of you that "think" you know the intent of the constitution framers and those of you that "think" the constitution is a "living" document.
Read and heed well what is said in them. There in lies the explained and detailed discussions and REAL intent of our framers of the constitution......That is if you are educated enough to understand them.
Full compilation is available online....They are the thorn in the side of those who attempt to subvert and twist the meaning of the constitution. You will be amazed and the surprised at the intellect of our forefathers in their recorded discussions.
This is specifically for: B.E.G., A.S.M., and Fred....enjoy, it is a long read!
Hi Dave,
"I can see very bad things happening with the executive branch interfering with bankruptcies, particularly when the creditors involve political supporters - it just begs for abuse over and above the separation of powers matter."
I agree completely.
Bush's Wall Street Bailout
Freedoms, flew in a Garmin 400 equip. jet last week. Not what he was promised but sure solved two problems. Filed direct and data base is upgradeable and therefore you can go back to the mid 30's. A must in the little jet. All for only 20K. What a bargain. The guy in houston doing it is busy and in and out in 5-6 working days. Gotta do what you gotta do.
Hi FlyBoyMark,
Thank you for the reading recommendation:
The Federalist Papers.
It does seem like a long read- so in the interest of a timely response: what is your point?
(Specific examples please).
If there were an election coming up within a few months, I'd give the "buying influence" argument some heavy consideration.
But- there isn't, and this isn't about "buying influence"- it's about buying food, by those affected by shuttered plants. Some of the Chrysler guys will get by okay for a while (80% salaries with government DIP), but the many times more suppliers affected will be affected.I didn't say this time there was. I'm saying if you let it be done once - no matter how noble - then for all future times with the precident set, then it is ripe for abuse. I'm talking about the principle of this where you can take a similar scenario involving a BK and a political supporter and it can be very bad.
I agree completely.
Bush's Wall Street BailoutI've opposed all the bailouts. I'm actually on record on another message board opposing it at the time it was happening and saying that it would lead to bailouts in other industries and would run into the trillions.
The "Federalist Papers"
For those of you that "think" you know the intent of the constitution framers and those of you that "think" the constitution is a "living" document.I think the Federalist Papers are informative historical documents, but they don't reveal the intent of all those involved in passing the Constitution and making it the law of the land because it only represents a certain subset of them. Ever since the Constitution was around, there has been debate as to what the actual intent was as different ratifiers had different itents and different interpretations. This dispute can be seen most clearly with the slavery matter where notherners had one interpretation and southerners had another, which this ended up leading to the Civil War. I don't believe that the Constition is a "living" document (except when it is changed by amendment), but I also don't think the Federalist Papers speaks for all the Founding Fathers who ratified the Constitution.
You will be amazed and the surprised at the intellect of our forefathers in their recorded discussions.That I am. The US would have died in infancy if it wasn't for the brilliance of so many of our Founding Fathers.
FBMark,
"There in lies the explained and detailed discussions and REAL intent of our framers of the constitution... That is if you are educated enough to understand them".
(Hey Kettle, there is someone I think you should meet :)
Somehow, when someone tells me they "Really know what someone meant, but nobody else does", I get a little "Skeptic"-al (NG or not).
Do you think that perhaps our President has read them, and has the intellect to understands them, better than any of us??
"Obama entered Harvard Law School in late 1988."
"He was selected as an editor of the Harvard Law Review at the end of his first year"
"and president of the journal in his second year."
"After graduating with a Juris Doctor (J.D.) magna cum laude from Harvard in 1991, he returned to Chicago."
"For twelve years, Obama served as a professor at the University of Chicago Law School teaching constitutional law."
Perhaps it takes someone familiar with Harvard and the University of Chicago, to understand just what a stunningly capable individual he is, whether you agree with his "politics" or not.
Barack Obama
Our President. I can say that with pride, for the first time in many years.
He wasn't my first choice, or even my second, or third. But I'm pleasantly surprised at what the intellect, honesty, purpose, and openness he brings to the office.
Dave,
Well said !!
ASM said... No, that was George Bush and Dick Cheney. Our new president taught Constitutional law and seems to venerate the separation of powers in the Constitution.
-----------------------
Is that the same President who now fires and appoints CEOs of American corporations and decides who/when/how those companies file for bankruptcy and how he wants the assets divided, with the vast majority of them going to an organization with no standing who just happened to have been one of the largest donors of money and time to his and his party's campaign?
What would you say if Chaves did that in Venezuela?
Obama is attempting to take assets that belong as collateral to the secured creditors to gift them to reward the UAW, an unsecured creditor with no standing.
And he is doing that by using the full power of his office to pressure the creditors AND THE JUDGE into accepting his favoritism. Not that in his filings, he makes political arguments (save jobs, etc), when that is totally irrelevant to who owns the proceeds. And, like Mr Roel Pieper, he is the seller, the DIP and the acquirer of a 363 sale.
There a few things the US govmt has attempted that are more disturbing.
Not = note
Hey BEG, that are LOTS of rights that we could do away in this country to preserve jobs.
Think about it. If we say prevented people to sue corporations, that would make them more productive, competitive and they'd hire more people. Heck, jobs would even move here from overseas.
If we executed every convicted felon, that would save prison money and taxes.
The rights to assets in bankruptcy proceedings are protected by the 5th amendment to the US constitution.
That right was put in that amendment, PRECISELY, because that right would be unpopular at times. Just like the other rights in that amendment are unpopular -e.g. right against self incrimination.
You should be very, very careful, when you stand up in favor of taking property and eliminating a constitutionally protected right, because "it will save union jobs".
For all you know, some of the mutual funds you own may be holding secure debt in Chrysler.
That = There - too late to type.
"Hey BEG, that are LOTS of rights that we could do away in this country to preserve jobs. Think about it. If we say prevented people to sue corporations, that would make them more productive, competitive and they'd hire more people. Heck, jobs would even move here from overseas."
Hey Baron, guess what- I have already thought about it- a lot. I'm glad YOU agree- legal costs are killing the country. And the lawyers the speculators hired are part of that very problem.
Matter of fact, I'm totally in favor of putting a cap of $100K per life on lawsuits. And limiting legal fees to $100 per hour. And making it impossible to sue a hospital or doctor.
"If we executed every convicted felon, that would save prison money and taxes."
Baron- guess what- we agree again. I think we should start with everyone hiring illegal immigrants. And every CEO who maintains an offshore headquarters to evade US taxes.
I am DEAD serious."The rights to assets in bankruptcy proceedings are protected by the 5th amendment to the US constitution."
Oh please. This isn't about the constitution- it's about a bunch of speculators trying to bleed the system.
"That right was put in that amendment, PRECISELY, because that right would be unpopular at times."
You are referring to:
"nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation".
The government was offering just compensation, in my opinion. Nobody took anything from these guys. Due process IS being pursued. I think they are just posturing with hopes of being "bought off", and they are willing to ruin the lives of a hundred thousand to satisfy their greed for near-term profits.
"Just like the other rights in that amendment are unpopular -e.g. right against self incrimination."
?? Say what ?? Who is talking about the other rights?? Protection against self incrimination- why of course. I mean, to make someone give that right up, why, you'd practically have to waterboard them. What tyrant would do something like that ??
"You should be very, very careful, when you stand up in favor of taking property and eliminating a constitutionally protected right, because "it will save union jobs".
Baron, nobody is "taking" property. An offer was made to buy property, it was rejected, now it's in the courts.
And will you please tell us what your pathalogical obsession with unions is??
I want jobs preserved period- union or otherwise. Assemblers, machine operators, painters, drafters, engineers, accountants; mechanics and sales people at dealers across the land; workers at supplier factories; and at convenience stores and restaurants and hotels outside all those facilities; and at schools where teacher salaries are paid by property taxes collected on businesses that are open.
"For all you know, some of the mutual funds you own may be holding secure debt in Chrysler."
And if they are, I would have been MUCH BETTER OFF if Chrysler would not have been FORCED into bankruptcy by these hedge fund squids trying to pimp the system.
-----------------------------------
(I won't worry about your typos if you excuse mine ! :)
Those old boys cover a lot of ground for one amendment:
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation"
Fifth Amendment
"For those of you that "think" you know the intent of the constitution framers and those of you that "think" the constitution is a "living" document."Fifth Amenment, Bill of Rights, Hmmm...
FBMark,
Here's an extra points quiz:
What word do the first five letters in the "Amendment" spell ??
BEG, read the link I provided above. You will see, how the US Supreme Court found that FDRs attempt to prevent creditors to foreclose farms in bankruptcy proceedings was found to be in violation of the 5th Amedment to the US Constitution.
FDR made the exact same arguments - good of the country, etc...and lost.
You still haven't explained why it is necessary to gift 55% of New Chrysler to the UAW to save a single job.
Why not gift it to the thousands of 401Ks and pension funds and mutual funds that invested in Chrysler secured debt?
Why should grandma who invested $1,000 in Chrysler secured debt donate $710 of that $1,000 to the UAW and Fiat and the US Govmt? Why not let grandma get as much as the property securing her investment can fetch in a sale?
Why should grandma be happy that Obama is selling, financing and buying that debt and decided that she only deserves $290 and the UAW VEBA and Fiat and the US Govmt can take over here $710?
Please explain that to us.
By the way, in case it is not obvious to you, how grandma owns Chrysler debt, it goes like this....
Hundreds of thousands or millions of individuals TO thousands of mutual funds, pension funds, 401Ks, etc TO dozens of banks and hedge funds to Chrysler, backed up by first liens on Chrysler assets (buildings, factories, inventories, receivables, brands, etc).
But the Chief says, I don't even want anyone to try to value or sell those assets. I want to donate them to FIAT (for free) and to the UAW (in exchange for debt that would be discharged by the courts at ZERO or close to it) and to the US Govmt. Screw all the grandmas that have secured interest in those assets. I want to give it to Fiat and the UAW. And I am the Chief. If you object I'll take you down.
Lets see if the Judge has balls to stand up to the Chief.
And by the way, I am the chief, and like Chief Roel Pieper from the great Dutch Tribe of Eclipski, I follow his innovative approach of being the seller, the buyer and the DIP financier of the transaction.
But, I, as the Chief of the US tribe, declare this 363 transaction, to be an "arms length" transaction.
And I further declare that those who oppose this arms-length transaction be declared traitors of the tribe, and disposed of in a manner of my choosing.
And I further declare that medicine man Gonzales approve this sale with only 15 hours for the traitors to voice any objections, since we KNOW that there can't be any valid objections to the will of the Chief.
All hail the Chief.
Re the Mustang crash April 19, 2008, Carlsbad, CA
Nobody hurt, airplane damage "substantial" (but probably repairable).
Second hand, word on the street:
Much to the owner's chagrin, the aircraft was repairable and damages weren't enough to total it out.
Cessna Sacramento came down, removed (and tossed) the wings.
Trucked the remains up to their shop in Sacramento, new wings, new main gear, some body work, and she was as good as new.
Of course not able to say "NDH- No Damage History" on that one.
Supposedly about $1.5 million was the bill.
Oh, and as the Chief, I further order medicine man Gonzales to take more money from grandma to immediately pay taxes and to the tribal council AND to pay 80% of salaries for the UAW-tribesman to STAY HOME DOING NOTHING, while the tribal council pays the remaining 20% of salaries.
I order that, even though grandma lost here job. An UAW tribesman has priority over a non-UAW tribes grandma. Screw her if she does not qualify for unemployment. If she does, she can get, on average, 15% of her salary. F$@#% grandma. We need to make sure the UAW tribesman gets 100% of salary for staying home during this proceeding. The tribe does not like grandmas. We like UAW-tribesman, because they can get out the vote and they give more money to the Chief than grandma. F$@# grandma again.
Hail to the Chief and the brave UAW-tribesman.
Supposedly about $1.5 million was the bill.
-----------------
If you can't sell new planes, next best thing to do with your factory and workforce - rebuild wrecks and bill the insurance company.
Just like Pratt loves hot starts.
Ka-ching, Ka-ching.
I want to donate them to FIAT (for free)
they do not get it for free ...
in exchange , a US firm is getting the "Know-How" they should have been acquiring long time ago (Building small efficient cars) if they wouldn't have been blinded by their own importance ... (the top-brass US cars makers !!) and the "Need" for much too big cars consuming too much gas ...
if the US public (a chunk of it) wouldn't have been pushed to believe they were the ones to be able to do as they wished despise the world situation ...
they could have see the models presented by Car-makers had no future ...
as well as it seems (to me) that you are grossly misrepresenting the current situation :
They got (GM) in the red BECAUSE of Health-coverage and Pensions to elder employees , last time that GM borrowed a big sum [ was it 13 or 16 Billions $] not a single cent was meant for better product or/and better productivity ...
when was that ? under Bush administration !
what was the NORMAL role for the Govt then ?
A: raise the hand and shout madness at this...
did they do it ?
No , it was comforting too much their own ideas of being the "blessed Nation" !!
so , you see , the REAL role of a state administration is to make SURE everybody plays with the same rules ...
for 8 years , the rule was : We are great = no need to think about future ...
we are great = no need to respect any other ...
we are great = so we have the "god right" to be different ...
problem : no better , no worse , absolutely no different !
whatever excess has been committed in those 8 years has to be repaid now ...
so on this , i would be with Billy: When was the last time the vast majority of US citizens could say "i am proud of our president"
without bringing laughter in foreign lands ?
let see :
GW Bush : hahahaha ...
Clinton : you know the story : bill and hilary go to petrol-station , while the guy fill-up the tank , bill say to his wife "can you imagine , if you would have married this guy , you wouldn't have been living in the White-House now !" hillary answer :"bill , if i would have married him , HE would have become the President !"
Bush Senior : "read my lips..." is it enough ?
Reagan : in his time , a german (i think) newspaper published a little comic of D.R. ...
Reagan was presented the list of current problem by his vice ...
the dialogs was "holy cows , i won't have enough bullets for all this !!"
so , to see someone who seems to have a functioning brain in the Oval Office came as a good sign ...
Is he going to be any good ?
(in the long run ! any one can have immediate effects = just print more money !)
much too early to say ! and it is 150% true that the situation left by few of his predecessors is so chaotic , that only to be willing to do something is already an act of bravery !
PS : if we have been turned into a full banana republic where the chief can do as he pleases
once again , you are misrepresenting situation ...
this has been done when one of your president had a LAW voted with ONLY ONE Representative actually reading it ... He was the ONLY one to be against this LAW (sorry , i don't remember name)
the Time : 2001
the President : G.W. Bush
the Law : patriot act !
(anyone that can be labeled terrorist loose all civil rights , without precision on "what is actually a terrorist" )
how about separation ?
Billy :
if you are looking for "how" was seen your last President abroad , this is from french TV satirists
(it is subtitled )
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=7784507626310506999&ei=TwAASorlOMbN-Qat0LGxDw&q=les+guignols+de+l%27info+%2B+bush&hl=fr
By the way, in case it is not obvious to you, how grandma owns Chrysler debt
may be "grandma" should have been warned that giving her money to incompetent bosses to maintain inefficient factories to build inefficient products would NOT make her old days safe ...
NO ?
"Is that the same President who now fires and appoints CEOs of American corporations and decides who/when/how those companies file for bankruptcy"
Yep, that's the one, our President. Those companies thought it was quite OK to receive taxpayer funds to keep themselves afloat after they ran themselves straight into the ground. They thought it would be a no-strings gift of billions and billions of dollars from the federal government. Surprise! Somebody is actually looking out for the taxpayer and holding the CEOs feet to the fire.
"Somebody is actually looking out for the taxpayer and holding the CEOs feet to the fire."
Hope springs eternal!
"But I'm pleasantly surprised at what the intellect, honesty, purpose, and openness he brings to the office."
Well, maybe, however, his socialist agenda sucks!
Fred so what you are saying is we are back in the late 70's. In a word "uncompetive". 1980's credit card bubble. 1990's dot com bubble. Late 1990's Y2K bubble. 2000's was low interest rates after 9/11 to create the housing bubble. Not it's time to pay the bills.
ASM :
yes , you're totally right ... but you know : old habits are hard to kill ...! ;-)
Uglytruth :
i don't know if it is time to pay the bills ...
nonetheless , on thing is sure ;
the problem with "manipulating" : you have to make it bigger and bigger ...
(a bit like a junkee , to feel the same effect , the shoot has to be more and more strong ...)
until one day , you cannot make it bigger anymore ... (or it kills you)
the problem now ; since none of the bubble's bills you mentioned have been repaid ...
it is time to go to the exist , do not forget to pay before leaving and to switch off the light , if last one ...!
Whytech :
i wouldn't call Obama's agenda a socialist one ...
(if you want ... we still have some rare specimens here , we can ship them over ...on the ONLY condition you never send them back ...! ;-) )
at the most , it is Social-democrat ...
most countries in E.U. are in this !
it is quite good , as soon as you understand it ...
one of the biggest difference :
Big corporation do not play political men (& women) to make billions ...
political peoples make money themselves ...! ;-)
Btw , i was reading a report about the "TARP effect" (the funds tax-payers gently put at disposal for those worthless CEO)
it was quite funny ...
some firms wants to get out as soon as possible from the scheme ...
to the question " is it to protect Tax-payers interests ? or to protect the liberal system ?"
A: "not at all ! when a corp. is under TARP agreement , salaries and bonuses are closely monitored and therefor limited!"
some peoples will NEVER change ! ;-)
Baron, you seem to be well versed on the topic- so please do me a favor, and post links to the best presentation of the opposing arguments (to which you disagree).
I am sure you have read and considered both sides of the debate.
Thanks.
Can we please get back to airplanes, I throw up into my mouth a little bit whenever someone puts Obama, Constitution and Scholar in the same paragraph.
New post up.
Sorry, in advance, for the wordplay in the title, but sometimes the headline gives' me more grief than the content....
Shane
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