Thursday, April 2, 2009

Current affairs, future outcomes?

It's been a month since Eclipse Aviation Corporation joined the ranks of 'ex companies' in Chapter 7 bankruptcy. At that time it was anticipated (mostly by owners of the aircraft) that there would be a queue of willing, cash rich bidders, who would make quick and decisive offers, allowing all their problems to vanish, post haste.

Oh, how the scales have fallen from their eyes. Instead of a rapid sale and the normal 'business as usual' messages, all they are hearing from the various groups that form, dissolve and reform is waffle. What must be really disturbing for the senior note holders (who do, after all, own the assets) is the quixotic nature of some of these bidders. So far, not one 'real' company has stood up and said they WANT to buy the assets, with REAL money.

A few 'straws in the wind' for your consideration:-

1. Controller lists over 30 Cessna Mustang aircraft (or positions) all of them in or about the published 'asking' price. 27 Embraer Phenom 100 positions are on offer, several of which use the word 'sacrifice' in their offer and yet the FPJ manages only 11 ads, ALL of which are for existing aircraft and NONE even approaching the last 'list' price of $2.15 million. An earlier 'snippet' which noted several FPJ's changing hands in the $600k range has since been reinforced by reports of similar exchanges. This tells me the market for FPJ's has tanked.

2. The 28 DayJet aircraft (which most people seem to have forgotten) are about to hit the market as the finance company which owns them seeks some recovery. Word is that these aircraft are valued well below a million dollars each, and will be sold promptly. This is bad news for anyone thinking of 'restarting' production, since the DayJet birds represented a potential source of revenue, as well as providing potential customers with a cheaper alternative.

3. Once they were 'free' of EAC, numbers of people have contacted me with interesting historical details. It seems the real cost of building the FPJ never dropped below $2.3 million dollars, even during the 'volume' days last summer. Current best estimates are that the bird will cost something like $2.5 million to build in low (1 per week) numbers, possibly dropping a little if the rate rises. The killer appears to have been the totally unrealistic number of build hours being spent on each one. Consensus is about 4,000 hours per aircraft, without fixing squawks. No matter which way you try to do this, you need to sell FPJ's at something north of $2.5 million to make a profit, and closer to $3 million to offer an ROI to the moneymen. I submit that this will be very hard work, even for ex Chairman/CEO of EAC, Roel Pieper, who's joined in Mike Press's mini owners group.

4. Current press coverage of the 'revival efforts' are overwhelmingly negative, even from former supporters, some of whom ended up as (unpaid) creditors. Most find it hard to make the numbers add up or feel the much hyped market for the VLJ's has now evaporated. This has to influence prospective investors, who are also readers our discussion. One thing is clear. The fantasy of volume production and sale of a 'cheap' twin engine jet is truly a busted flush.

5. The only 'good news' concerns the 19 'caretakers' employed in ABQ, who are still getting paid.

To conclude, it appears to me that some people (especially FPJ owners) are still not getting the message. I'm reliably informed that the note holders will sell, by whatever means, very soon. It could even get to an auction on the steps of the Courthouse. I hope that's not the final outcome, but whatever happens I'm very reluctant to promote the idea that FPJ 'production' can restart in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Whatever chance there is of this it will have to be at a) a much reduced labour cost and b) without the endless cycle of trying to fit together parts that simply don't.

Spring has arrive here in our Emerald Isle. My thoughts naturally turn to exploring the many secret places dotted around, especially those where one can retire of an evening to a convivial local pub for a pint (or three...) of our very own Guinness. Remember that you can always contact me on the blog email, eclipsecriticng@gmail.com, with any view, opinions or information relevant to our discussions.

Shane

342 comments:

1 – 200 of 342   Newer›   Newest»
Jim Howard said...

I rode my bicycle around your wonderful Republic back in 1974! At that time I saw only one other ten-speed during the whole month I was there. I bet things have changed.

Coming from Texas, I was looking forward to hearing some Irish music, but every pub I visited played only Country and Western.

I still have the bike, I ought to try it again someday.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Perhaps now is the time for everyone to petition the note holders to surrender the TC to FAA. It should be obvious by now that there are no real plans with real money to resurrect production and even if they could, the new party would only last a few months to a year before it is deja vu all over.

The TC is not a gold mine, and will never be one.

If the TC is surrendered to FAA the effort to develop and certify any upgrades falls to the STC and PMA format, providing for profitable enginering and production work on as needed basis as directed by the owners or a service engineering entity supporting them.

Surrendering the TC is the only shot at a win for the note holders, there are after all 260 birds in the wild that will need support - surrendering the TC shows the note holders who happen to be vendors as truly interested in long term support.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Well Shane it seems you are taking Zoom's april fools day article pretty serious. You even manage to refer to him in your post and jack his reference to that Don we all have read about...

Kathy said...

Ken try getting ATT3 info on either PFD. Won't happen. Please don't take offense but you missed the whole point rather conveniently.

Mr. Meyer could you explain how the article mentioned is sourced from "Eclipse Aviation Corporation". I ask you since you had made it known that you were working with the mentioned group.

Thanks, Kathy.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

I seem to recall a discussion here a year or so ago, where the ADAMS TC sold for about $10M, so the EA500 TC was "worth about $200M.

The the EA500 TC is basically worthless.

Sorry.

fred said...

Kathy :

Damn ... !

Please don't take offense but you missed the whole point rather conveniently.

are you trying to say that our Kenny is missing the point on purpose ...?

Damn (again) , if you keep on that path , soon you will say that Wedge was lying !!!

;-)

Ken Meyer said...

Kathy wrote, "Please don't take offense but you missed the whole point rather conveniently."

Actually I thinked you missed your own point.

You seem to be saying that there is something amiss with the Eclipse backup system since you can't put ATT3 on the PFD.

But of course that is irrelevant. Either AHRS can be put on either PFD, and ATT3 is available for display on the MFD. If AHRS1 fails, AHRS2 is automatically displayed. If AHRS2 fails, AHRS1 is automatically displayed. ATT3 is available separately on the MFD; if ATT3 fails, AHRS2 is substituted.

You need to lose *both* AHRS1 and AHRS2 or *both* PFDs PLUS either the MFD or ATT3 to lose all attitude information. If you'd like to point to an SDR where that has ever happened, I'd be most interested; I'll wager you cannot.

On your other question, I haven't a clue. Your comment "you had made it known you were working with the mentioned group" is not factually correct.

Ken

Dave said...

Your comment "you had made it known you were working with the mentioned group" is not factually correct.

Yes, it was McRoeljet who [falsely] said the EOG endorsed them, not anyone from EOG.

RAD3 said...

Nice to see Ken back on the Blog!

Ken, I'm curious to know why you decided to block you're jet on FlightAware? I always enjoyed tracking your flights.

Kathy said...

Mr. Meyer there may be so SDR's but I can absolutely assure you that I've seen it happen in my dealings with the jet in post production testing. On several occasions whether due to a byteflite issue or APC failure the MFD would blank and ALL attitude info was lost. ATT3/ADC3 fail CAS would NOT be displayed I just found it very odd that the "last man standing, ATT3/ADC3" was not able to be displayed on either PFD. No need to mention how rare these events are. There are single fault modes that can affect many systems at the same time.

As for the question about the source of the article cited as EAC I apologize if I was wrong implying your involvement is the group.

Thanks Mr. Meyer.

ea500s said...

Ken Meyer, I must of slept thru that part of training, although I must admit I really don't remember falling asleep in class, but I just cannot remember for the life of me what an ATT3 is. Could you by any chance be referring to ADC3 or is it in referenance to the ADI on the MFD Thanks for keeping me informed.

Kathy said...

E500s when you have a chance take a gander through your AFM. Specifically description and operation, EFIS and ISS. It's all there.

Shane Price said...

Jim,

You would not believe how much things have changed here since 1974. It's just a pity that not all of the changes meet with universal approval....

EclipsePilotOMSIV,

Who's Zoom?

Coldwet,

I think the note holders will hold the IP until times improve. Too many aircraft companies for sale out there right now.

Shane

Shane Price said...

Company for Sale Snippet

I've been asked to remind everyone that AAI (Adams Aircraft, A500 certified centerline twin, and A700 twin jet, in process) was sold out of Chapter 7 early last year for $10 million. This included everything to do with the program and had some rather attractive expertise in composites thrown in.

That last line is a bit of free advertising, as the company is back on the market....

Shane

ea500s said...

Kathy apparently i didn't fall asleep thru this in class as it was not discussed. Best I can interpret ATT3 is the optional third AHARS and ADC3 presentation on the MFD, is that correct?

Kathy said...

E500s correct. RAD3 people like you are why many folks are blocking their flights. Are you serious? You can't tell me that you actually enjoy tracking peoples flights!

WhyTech said...

"that AAI (Adams Aircraft"

Shane,

Forgive me, but I am a stickler for accuracy: its ADAM not ADAMS - no S. Everyone does this - must drive Rick Adam nuts.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

The issue about selling the IP/TC is this, neither Columbia nor Adam had liabilities anywhere near that of Eclipse.

AAI sold for about $10M with one TC, one development program, and less than a dozen fielded planes.

Columbia was bought for about $26M with two TC's, a PC, and many more fielded aircraft than Eclipse.

The TC for EAC is nearly worthless IMO when considered in context of the fielded fleet size and the outstanding liabilites.

RAD3 said...

Hi Kathy!

I actually do have fun tracking flights on FlightAware...not just Ken's. As an armchair pilot I like to see how actual conditions compare to a flight plan, look at the way-points and other fixes on a chart, and generally "fly" along with the aircraft being tracked. I don't care where a plane is going just how it gets there. I have no ulterior motive in doing this nor do many other folks who use the FlightAware service in the same way. And yes I don't get out much :>)

baron95 said...

If it is true that EA500s are changing hands for $600K, I find it astounding that there are buyers.

If I owned one, I'd sell it for $600K in a heart bit.

Remember that since the market bottom was called here, that $600K would be over $750K by now and climbing.

Pretty soon, it will be a nice chunk of money to put as a down payment on a DJet, when they fly (or not) next year.

I'd not be holding unsupported aluminum at this time.

baron95 said...

beat even.

Black Tulip said...

AIN just announced a special deal offered by Randall Sanada of Jet-Alliance, an aircraft charter and management firm. He has suggested that the 60-percent depositors, who’ve otherwise lost everything, should pony up part of the remaining 40-percent in return for a share of a used DayJet Eclipse 500.

There are so many aggrieved parties that deserve reparation, it seems unfair to me to favor Eclipse depositors. How about the Japanese-Americans who were interned during World War II? How about the American Indians, so harshly driven from their lands? And then there are the descendants of slaves, cruelly taken from their homeland. Don’t they deserve a shot?

I’ll grant you the Japanese-Americans have been paid $20,000 redress each and the Indians have their casinos, Rolexes and Mercedes. But the Compassion Committee of the blog needs to weigh this question.

Kathy said...

RAD3 to each their own I guess. Who am I to judge anybody anyway?

Black Tulip that's funny! I wonder how many folks know that 3 of the DJ planes have a damage history from a windstorm last year. Yep. They were all parked close together outside in N.M. and 3 planes jumped chalks. Minor damage but hopefully it's recorded. They all had C of A's at the time so it's not like an "in production" mishap. Needs to be logged.

gadfly said...

Dark Blossom

From the sublime to the ridiculous . . . it was the descendants of my very ancestor, namesake, and King of Scotland (1300 AD), that gave the world the bagpipe (an ill wind that no-one blows good) . . . and golf (a continuing war of man against a puckered ball, waged with a funny looking stick, attempting to make the thing go down a gopher hole). But since both bring big bucks, I think it only fair that I should be entitled to some of the profits.

gadfly

airtaximan said...

folks... I know I keep posting this, but Djet is in BIG trouble... laid off many folks a few days ago... no notice...

comments?

Shane Price said...

The DayJet FPJ's had an 'internal' nickname.

FFM's

This was short for 'Flying Failure Modes'. One of my reliable sources passed on the following:-

Two of our crews had "cascading avionics failures" that caused all of the screens to go blank. One spotted an airfield down below and landed there. The other managed to restore his avionics system, restore communications with ATC and found himself close to Freeport Bahamas. His first officer quit working at DayJet, as a result of this.

So, if you are a REAL thrillseeker, and fancy your chances over water, at night, with no instruments....

... buy yourself an ex DayJet FPJ.

They are very easy to recognize, what with the beaten up exterior and the worn out interior. Oh, and that 'antique' Avio (not the IS&S glass) with all sorts of bugs. Don't forget the smaller tip tanks and (on some of them) the lack of those all important aero mods.

But hey, go ahead. Be like The Faithful and buy into the future of skies darkened by thousands of VLJ's shuttling millions of people from small runways everywhere.

Or something like that....

Shane

Shane Price said...

WhyTech,

Sorry...

Adam Aircraft it is. I should also put my hand up and say that I considered the A700 for a while, before I realized the payload might not have been up to the job.

Or the speed. While we're in 'critical' mode, the range wasn't up to much either.

And it looked a bit odd. I never quite got the twin booms, even if I'm a fan of the P-38.

But other than these minor gripes, I liked the idea.

Shane

airtaximan said...

fc,

I love you man...

I promise, I saw all the oofers for avionics for VLj (type) craft in the $190-$290k range... based on volume.

Did they offer at volume knowing it would NEVER happen - my guess is YES.

BUT, truth is, there were very viable options, and the idea Vern chose NOT to go with proven companies is, the dumbest thing he did, IMO.

airtaximan said...

shane,
check out the carnage at Diamond....

gadfly said...

taximan

If a company with a long history of successful aircraft is in deep trouble these days, what hope is there for something of the sort that was thrown onto the landscape of Albuquerque by a software salesman, barely knowing the difference between a bit and a byte? You keep bringing up your good questions . . . and some of us still hold to the prognosis of complete failure of the little bird by the Rio Grande . . . with about the same future as an adobe brick in a storm drain.

gadfly

TBMs_R_Us said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
airtaximan said...

Gad,

precisely.

Also, imagine a blog knows the industry... and there's no noews on the Djet program (likely delayed a year or more) and big layoffs at Diamond.

Folks, its common knowledge the reporters (whom I love BTW) are (a little) slow to uncover bad news...

Folks, the Djet is in jeopardy... also, things at Epic are sketchy... another rumor, but probably true...

we need corroboration...

RonRoe said...

Looks like our ol' friend Gunner is the kiss of death! First Eclipse, then Diamond, now Epic.

You sure know how to pick 'em, Rich. I hope that you never buy any of my company's products, because financial ruination is sure to follow.

bill e. goat said...

Hello Ron,
We are enjoying the blog right now, because Rich hired a lawyer, at his own expense, with no "dog in the fight", just to preserve this forum.
His actions were pivotal in getting Wedge's sorry ass thrown out of Eclipse, and insuring the information provided here continued to be available, which has keep dozens of potential Eclipse customers from throwing away hundreds of thousands of dollars apiece, and helped thousands of employees and prospective employees make more informed decisions in their personal and professional lives.

So, in other words,
Have a drink on me

Black Tulip said...

Howzit taste Ron?

michal said...

check out the carnage at Diamond....

Ok, could you elaborate, sources, etc?
I can't find any bombshell about Diamond Aircraft, these days pretty much everyone announced layoffs, including the latest round at Cessna.

RonRoe said...

LOL. Thanks for the link, Bill. I'm sure I can find a use for that in the future.

Black Tulip, I see that your originality is unimpaired, as usual.

As to Saint Gunner, do you imagine that his actions were what caused Roel to drop the suit? Any sane CEO would have closed that one out immediately.

I think Gunner's effort was noble in his mind, and the minds of you fawning bloggers, but ultimately futile. The result would have been the same with or without ol' Spiny Norman (apologies to Python fans) on the case.

I did find it amusing to see all you little cockroach bloggers scatter when Vern tried to find out the real names behind your nom-de-vermin. By the way, Vern did not sue the blog, nor did he sue any of the posters on the blog. He filed suit against Google. Anyone who felt threatened by the Vernster's actions was as deluded as Raburn himself.

But, we do have freedom of religion in these United States, so anyone who wants to worship at the altar of Gunner the Great is free to do so. Just don't look down -- those clay feet of his have ingrown toenails.

P.S. Don't take advice from Gunner on which airplane to buy, either!

Dave said...

I hope that you never buy any of my company's products, because financial ruination is sure to follow.

What is your company?

RonRoe said...

Dave,

We provide consultative services to financial firms whose products are valuations of credit-default swap contracts as well as other derivatives.

bill e. goat said...

"I did find it amusing to see all you little cockroach bloggers scatter"

Now say "RonRoe", I think

"We provide" is a little bit...cockroachish.

How about your full name, and the name and website of your business?

Some of us are find it more comforting to our customers that we remain anonymous- but you seem to disagree with that sentiment, so whaddasay??

We're all just...curious.

Thanks- it's a good chance for you to get some...publicity.

Unbelievable said...

After a year of entertainment watching this blog, finally a reason to post, laughing so hard I couldn't sit in my chair and shut up---

Oh my friggin God, Kenny-Boy the idi*t is back!

Still defending your "great little plane" .... made by the bankrupt mfg that blew $2 billion and screwed hundreds of honest aviators with a ponzi deposit scheme; founded and managed by incompetent executives who were idiots, liars and thieves; who screwed the State of New Mexico, City of Albuquerque and several thousand dedicated employees; to design and build an aircraft with substandard avionics (less functional than a G1000 Cessna 172, Diamond DA40, or a SR20); no FIKI; restricted altitude; crappy brakes; worn out tires; dripping & corroding PhostrEx fire suppression system; life limited airframe (max 10,000 hours, 10,000 cycles, and 10 years); that costs more than $2.5 million in mfg to build, not including overhead (WAY more than a Cessna Citation Mustang or Phenom 100); and takes 4,000 hours to produce? Lets see, $2 billion lost, 250 jets = $8 million lost per delivered FPJ, each owner could have had a new much more capable Phenom 100 plus $5 million to spend on the extra fuel!

And how much will it cost per flight hour to maintain if and when the bankrupt company comes back, if it ever does, with new management that exists and invests only to service (oops I mean screw) the 250 owners, Kenny-Boy? Your "great little jet" that now sells used for $600K even with Avio NfG, 45+% less than you paid, not even counting your lost deposits on FPJ#2 and FPJ concept jet!!! With your ba*ls solidly in the grips of the hands of trustworthy aviation geniuses such as "Col. Miiaake Preeess," RP, & the honorable Mike McConnell, who collectively are now your best hope, leading the EclipseJet offer after their great judgement and work on Eclipse v1.0????

Exactly when and why did you pull your head out of your a** to rejoin this blog? And blocking your E500 on FlightAware, since it is AOG, to save face ??? This is friggin hilarious!!!!!

Kenny Boy, you just made our day!!!

bill e. goat said...

And Ron,
Just to close the loop a bit, on an earlier post (My you are long winded- me too!!):

"As to Saint Gunner, do you imagine that his actions were what caused Roel to drop the suit?
No, I think that Gunner's actions are what caused Roel to drop Wedge.

"I think Gunner's effort was noble in his mind, and the minds of you fawning bloggers"
If you mean, trying to stop fraud, harassment, intimidation, illegal search and seizure, first amendment violations, and saving millions of dollars and (at least) several dozen marriages, then YES!!: I consider it VERY noble too!!

"but ultimately futile. The result would have been the same with or without ol' Spiny Norman (apologies to Python fans) on the case."
Are you as delusional as you are insulting? Are you aware of the suit Wedge initiated against Aspen Avionics (and lost)? Or the suit he initiated against Brian Skupa (and lost)? How many tens of thousands of dollars did Wedge burn on legal fees, and cause others to burn on legal fees? He tried to drive Aspen out of business, just out of vindictiveness. He tried to ruin Brain Skupa's career, just out of vindictiveness. The facts are, Wedge would have spent millions of dollars, just out of vindictiveness, and force everyone on the blogger suit list to expend tens of thousands of dollars in defense fees.

You are wrong: "Any sane CEO would have closed that one out immediately.".
It wasn't a matter of being sane, it was a matter of being honest. The suit was about controlling the press (Google, and the then the blog). The legal fees were "an investment", just like advertising- controlling public opinion (suppressing negative discussion regarding Eclipse).

"I did find it amusing to see all you little cockroach bloggers scatter when Vern tried to find out the real names behind your nom-de-vermin."
Well, I assume you have a reason for insulting bloggers who helped save the aviation public and tax payers millions more in wasted money. But I don't know what it is, and don't really care.

"By the way, Vern did not sue the blog, nor did he sue any of the posters on the blog. He filed suit against Google."
Thank you for explaining the obvious, and being too self absorbed to recognize the convenient "short hand" used when referring to the suit.

" Anyone who felt threatened by the Vernster's actions was as deluded as Raburn himself."
No, sorry: that is a lie, and you are lying intentionally.

Wedge spent tens of thousands of dollars on the suit, and his express intention was to cause as many people, as much pain, as he could. To refute that is to deliberately lie.

"But, we do have freedom of religion in these United States, so anyone who wants to worship at the altar of Gunner the Great is free to do so."
We are not worshiping Rich here- but we are honoring him: AND RIGHTFULLY SO: he did the flying community A GREAT SERVICE.

Really, I just don't get how anyone can be so CLUELESS as to not fully grasp that.:

1) Wedge's actions intimidated the EAC workforce in to silence.

2) THIS BLOG was the only consistent source of reality to counter the hype out of EAC.

3) Wedge spent tens of thousands of dollars AS A START in trying to harass and intimidate bloggers here. He would have spent HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS if Google would have provided him names- think about it- 29 names x 30-50 $K each, or more.

And Google WOULD HAVE PROVIDED information, had it not been for the SUCCESSFUL legal defense Rich paid for.

AND NOT ONLY THAT: Rich paid even MORE to make sure Wedge did not try any "end run" legal machinations in the future. He could have gone for an "easy victory", but he didn't:
RICH WENT FOR A COMPLETE VICTORY.
For the benefit of the blog, and the bloggers named in the suit.

And WHO BENEFITED??
EVERYONE !!!
(Except, Wedge, that is)

Eclipse was going to implode anyway- Wedge was just trying to stall it until he could pawn it off on someone else in an IPO.

How many SUPPLIERS were being to be duped by the absurd Eclipse Press Releases??

How many CUSTOMERS were being to be duped by the absurd Eclipse Press Releases??

How many TAXPAYERS were being duped by the absurd Eclipse Press Releases??

How many EMPLOYEES were being duped by the absurd Eclipse Press Releases??

How many CUSTOMERS were being duped by the absurd Eclipse Press Releases??

How many INVESTORS were being duped by the absurd Eclipse Press Releases??

REALLY, thousands of lives were affected -for the better- by this blog, which Rich alone paid to defend.

THAT's NOT HYPE: THAT'S FACT
----------------------------------

"Just don't look down..."

Ron, don't worry- when it comes to Rich, we look UP!!

bill e. goat said...

"Kenny Boy, you just made our day!!!"

Well, I'm happy Ken is back too!!

Still defending your "great little plane..."

Hey, Ken tried to buy MORE of them- how much more sincerity do you want from the guy ?!?

Btw, I think it's a great little plane too!

And after getting swindled out of hundreds of thousands of dollars on deposits, I am SUREKen would agree with you (and me) about
"a ponzi deposit scheme; founded and managed by incompetent executives who were idiots, liars and thieves; who screwed the State of New Mexico, City of Albuquerque and several thousand dedicated employees"
(Say, that was pretty eloquently put!!)

"And how much will it cost per flight hour to maintain..."
Well, Ken is taking it upon himself to minimize that- again, what more can you expect from the guy ?!?

Ken, I hope there is a successful outcome to the current proceedings. Personally, I think the best outcome would not be the coop, as I fear it it is doomed to be underfunded, but rather, a significant domestic entity take it over, and run it for-profit. In the long run, I think this would be the best way to minimize costs (especially if they restart production).

Another good idea I think, is a vendor swap- maybe back to a mature Avio, as someone suggested (on the previous thread). Or engineer a swap-out to Garmin (I would suggest even the factory take that approach).

I'm pleased that we are graced with several owners today: Ken, EPx, and ea500s. (And maybe some others?)

Thanks also to Kathy for promoting the discussion on the third attitude logic, and the owner's inputs on that.

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
I'm reading (and writing on a side bar) as fast as I can !!
(Thanks for the tips!)
.)

bill e. goat said...

Unbelievable,
Welcome to the blog- I'm glad you're posting- I look forward to your insights.

I think you have picked a pretty apt "handle"- the EAC story really is pretty "unbelievable"- spectacular in a garish sort of way!!

:)

RonRoe said...

Bill,

Is it not ironic that you, the champion of free speech that you are, posted a link that told me to "shut up"? Is the free speech that you believe Gunner defended only for those you agree with, then? Tell me again how your trying to silence me is different from Vern's feeble attempt to silence his critics.

But, it's always been that way on this blog, hasn't it? The critics can dish it out, but they can't take it. They won't hear anything that contradicts their own narrow, ill-informed points of view.

By the way, if Eclipse lost the lawsuit against Aspen, why was Eclipse awarded one percent of Aspen's stock? That's probably the most valuable asset Eclipse has left, don't you think?

As to this blog affecting thousands of lives for the better, do you have any evidence of this? Or are you falling for the same kind of self-important hype that Eclipse's victims swallowed?

Really, Bill, I used to have a lot of respect for you, based on your prior posts. I thought you were one of the few gentlemen on the blog. I thought you had a sense of humor. With just a couple of posts, you've disabused me of those notions.

As to Gunner being your hero, well, that's your right, but a man of your intelligence can do much better.

bill e. goat said...

CWMOR,
"Surrendering the TC is the only shot at a win for the note holders, there are after all 260 birds in the wild that will need support - surrendering the TC shows the note holders who happen to be vendors as truly interested in long term support."

Good point.

I hope the Excel jet project is coming along well.

Dave Ivedorne said...

RonRoe demonstrated an ultimately believable amount of ignorance when he bleated:
Vern did not sue the blog, nor did he sue any of the posters on the blog. He filed suit against Google.

BZZZTT!!! Wrong, Ronniebaby. Vern sued the blog, in the case ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, a Delaware Corporation vs. JOHN DOE, blah, blah, blah, No. D-202-CV-2008-02624, ( filed under seal ). The Google subpoena lawsuit was filed subsequent to - and in its entirety, based on - that.

More ignorance:
I did find it amusing to see all you little cockroach bloggers scatter when Vern tried to find out the real names behind your nom-de-vermin.

Did you find it amusing that even more bloggers gathered? And dug? And dug, deeper and deeper into publically available information about Wedge's supposed "secrets"? That the subpoena raised the profile of the blog immeasurably higher than before it?

RonRoe bragged:
We provide consultative services to financial firms whose products are valuations of credit-default swap contracts as well as other derivatives.

I presume you have some experience with that? Nice job - by the way - on that whole collapse of the world economy thing...

Pay at the first window,
DI

Kathy said...

Mr. Cushman seems to be quite fair and honest. Don't quite understand the perceived hostility. He gave his personal info. That's honest transparency in my eyes. I know of a couple ex EAC that DID scatter like cockroaches when the suit was filed with google. The blog was their only way of getting info and expressing distress, albeit often in such ways to only make themselves look bad for still being there. The 'Skupa firing' company wide memo published by Mr. Raburn infuriated but also intimidated many employees. So when the suit came after google I can't blame them.

BilleGoat, I appreciate your kind words about the 3rd AHRS/ATT info but it's straight from the AFM, and experience with the jet. I deserve no thanks.

Mr. Meyer, again I meant no disrespect and again apologize if taken as such. I admit I felt your response was a bit guarded but I guess I got what I gave. The EAC source citation from the article that I questioned came from seeing your name in the mix at the bottom of one of the proposals. I only asked you that question since I figured if your name was there, that you could shed some light on the subject. I can only assume, and yes I know what an assumption can turn out to be, that Mr. McConnell is still EAC hence the source citation. I certainly express condolences for any financial losses you may have assumed if you did indeed have outstanding deposits. I don't know that you did, it's just info picked up from this blog. I wish you nothing but safety and joy with your plane. It IS a terrific aircraft. The only reason I felt the need to talk about the 3rd ATT issue not being able to be displayed on the PFD's is because that discussion caught my attention. I'd wager that your plane is NOT AOG and you hopefully are getting fulfillment from it. I've flown one right seat and it's a joy, especially for an "old Lady"! I honestly wish you the best.

Dave Ivedorne said...

Don't quite understand the perceived hostility. He gave his personal info. That's honest transparency in my eyes.

You've fallen for his subterfuge. RonRoe provided the street name of one of the bloggers - and one who's a stand-up-and-be-counted guy at that ( it's the blogger who consented being identified for contesting the Google subpoena - do we detect a pattern here from Mr. Roe? ).

That's DIShonesty, in my eyes.

RonRoe has a problem with Gunner to boot. If you get in the Wayback Machine and revisit Gunner's first posts to the blog, you'd find that he enunciated - with a level of detail that would seem prophetic two years yon - the pitfalls of dealing with Eclipse. RonRoe was probably one of the chihuahuas who attacked Rich at the time, and who doubtless lost PLENTY as a result of his dance with the Wedge. In a nutshell, he blames Gunner for his own stupidity.

( In response to Stan's supposition, I believe that time has demonstrated Gunner to be the "Smartest Duck in the Pond". RonRoe - not so much... )

DI

Kathy said...

Call me naive. Well deserved. Why would he do that?

bill e. goat said...

RonRoe,
I'm a bit confused.

Dave I,
You are one smart boy.

Tomorrow will be an interesting day!!
:)

If I'm eating crow, well, I think I'll do it with green chiles!!
:)

bill e. goat said...

Since I spent an hour preparing this, before I read the last few comments by Ron and others, and at the risk of eating (more!) crow, I'm going to go ahead and put it up anyway.

Ron, could you kindly email Shane tomorrow, to authenticate your contact information- (Shane, may I impose upon you to forward it to me?- thanks).
-------------------------------------

Ron,
Sorry if I offended you with the link- it is crude, and was -sort of- meant as a joke.

But the facts are- this blog was preserved by Rich. At the cost of tens of thousands of dollars.

To post here, and scoff at his misfortune for things beyond his control, and relish the prospect of him potentially suffering financial misfortune of the same magnitude which his efforts in preserving this blog have prevented multiple times, is an insult to his good deeds.

And is done with an agenda, which appears to come from experiences outside the blog.

Nobody is trying to silence your opinions- in fact, just the opposite, but I confess I was trying to silence your insults. The same way I try to silence anyone taking joy in someone else's misfortune- whether it is an EA500 depositor, or a Diamond depositor, or an Epic depositor.
-----------------------------------

"Is it not ironic that you, the champion of free speech that you are,"
Actually, I'm more a champion of truthful speech, than free speech. It is when I see something untruthful, and especially when I think it is being propagated with knowledge that it is untruthful, that I object.

"Tell me again how your trying to silence me is different from Vern's
feeble attempt to silence his critics."

Well, I appreciate your interest in the difference; The difference is, I'm not trying to ruin your life and career, nor cheat you out of millions of dollars.

Wedge's attempts were NOT feeble- it took tens of thousands of dollars to
fund the Google quash motion.

"But, it's always been that way on this blog, hasn't it? The critics can
dish it out, but they can't take it. They won't hear anything that contradicts their own narrow, ill-informed points of view."


Unfortunately, yes, there are a log of stubborn ill-informed opinions stated (and restated) here. But, usually they are stated in sincerity. If I think they are wrong, sometimes I object. If I think they are stated with the intent to mislead, I ALWAYS object.

"By the way, if Eclipse lost the lawsuit against Aspen, why was Eclipse awarded one percent of Aspen's stock?"

The answer is very simple: Wedge knew he was wrong. And an out-of-court settlement of 1% was the cheapest way for Aspen to "make him go away". Why
else would Wedge have settled for only 1 % ??

"That's probably the most valuable asset Eclipse has left, don't you
think?"


Well, I guess that depends on what Aspen is worth. I think the TC is worth about $100-200M, and the facilities are worth about $200M. So if Aspen is worth 30-40 $B, then at 1%, I'd agree.

(Frankly, I'm amazed that nobody has bought Eclipse- I think RiP put in
around $100-200M already, and wanted to put in another $200-300M, so at least some folks agree(d) with my estimates).

"As to this blog affecting thousands of lives for the better, do you have any evidence of this?"

Why yes I do. Over the months, I have come across over a dozen former EAC employees, and at least two dozen guys who declined to accept EAC offers, who are now gainfully employed at a variety of companies, who ALL- EVERY ONE OF THEM say they were reading the blog, and it let them know what was happening, way before it happened. They got their resumes out, and found jobs. And those that didn't, at least were not taken by complete surprise when events unfolded as they did. That foreknowledge had to be a HUGE psychological advantage, compared to getting cold cocked by an empty jug of KoolAid.

A dozen is not thousands- but the uniformity of their responses, makes me comfortable with the "sample size" and extrapolations. I'll even give it a +/-30% margin of error, and it's STILL thousands.
-----------------------------------
"Or are you falling for the same kind of self-important hype that Eclipse's victims swallowed?"

No.
------------------------------------

"Really, Bill, I used to have a lot of respect for you, based on your
prior posts."

Thank you.

"I thought you were one of the few gentlemen on the blog."
Thank you.

"I thought you had a sense of humor."
Thank you.

"With just a couple of posts, you've disabused me of those notions."
Thank you.

.)

I'm Sorry, but the undisclosed agenda against Rich, on the very blog site
that Rich paid dearly to defend, was sufficient to prompt me to evaluate and (perhaps mistakenly) accept the down side of the response I chose. I
apologize if my response was crude and ungentlemanly (it was). I considered it a roughly reciprocal response to the ungentlemanly, uniquely ironical, insulting, and unjustified attack on Rich.

But, two wrongs don't make a right. So, I apologize. But not enough to
take it down (at least not yet), because it was made with an element of dark humor rather than meanness.
-----------------------------------

"With just a couple of posts, you've disabused me of those notions."

Well, rats, there goes my good reputation. (Disabusement was my only chance!).

(But I fear there might suffer a more grievous notion- that while I am
easily fooled, not so easily cajoeled, nor tolerate unfairness).

I had to check, just to make sure I knew what it means- there's a lot of
letters in this one:
disabuse
Hmmm, "to free from error, fallacy, or misconception". Sounds like
liberation of sorts.

I'm glad Wedge did not liberate you of your consulting clientele.
"We provide consultative services to financial firms whose products are
valuations of credit-default swap contracts as well as other derivatives."

(I don't know what that means, but it sounds important!! Hmmm...sounds kind of like what Rich was doing at one time, if I remember correctly... :)

I'm glad Wedge did not liberate you of your tax dollars.

I'm glad Wedge did not liberate you of your previous job with tales of
spectacular opportunities.

I'm glad Wedge did not liberate you of the second mortgage on your house for a down payment on an EA500. Or EA400.

I'm glad Wedge did not liberate you from supplier investments in tooling and inventory.

Yes, such "liberation" is a bad thing.

I rather support those who combat it. Those such as Rich.
-----------------------------------

"As to Gunner being your hero, well, that's your right, but a man of your intelligence can do much better."

Rich fought to keep the blog free from Wedge's legal tactics, and did so with gracious humility and modesty. It was months after the fact before we found out just what extra lengths he went to to make sure it stayed defended.

In addition to all the good that did for society, it deeply impressed me on a personal level- that is the kind of selflessness and dedication to purpose that I will try to emulate in all my en devours.

(And I think he, and almost everyone else here- is a lot smarter than me! :)
-----------------------------------

So, Ron, please accept my apology- peace and truce, brother !!
:)

I would ask that you please don't relish the financial misfortune of others.

I would ask that you please don't refer to me and others here as "you little cockroach bloggers".

I would ask that you please desist with the disparaging comments about
remaining anonymous ("nom-de-vermin").

I rather insist that you desist with the persoanl attacks on Rich. I'll
grant you have some undisclosed beef with him. And I'll grant you might
have some reason for the beef. But I don't like it when we come here to
settle grudges. If he has posted something on the blog you disagree with, do elaborate (although he has been a lamentably infrequent poster lately!).

Same with any post- including the good evaluation you did on mine.

And, I will not post any more crude dark-humored links. Nor accuse you of falsehoods. Nor wish you get locked in an elevator with Wedge.

And since you are using the blog, and Rich spent tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to keep the blog running (I assume you are a long enough time reader to be aware of the pressure that was put on Stan and Shane), I would encourage you to consider an appropriate contribution- it doesn't matter if you "like" Rich or not- Rich didn't base his actions (and expenditures) on whether he "liked" individuals here or not- it was a matter of principle:

Richard J. Lucibella
Group One Enterprises, Inc
5011 North Ocean Blvd
Suite 5
Ocean Ridge, FL 33435

(I hope I'm a big enough man to live up to the fine example Rich set, if and when the time comes for me to "stand up" as he did- Thanks Rich!).

fred said...

Do not worry Billy ... ;-)

it is the first time in my (too long) career that i see someone willing to say :

"i am the one who opened the Zyklon B kanisters ..."

Ron , if you are really into advising on CDS , may i offer you an advice ?

i take your non-answer as a yes ...

take a sleeping bag , a tent , a good hunting knife for nourishing yourself ...

and go hide in a lost spot in Alaska !!!

when the Public opinion will understand fully what means those dreaded letters "CDS" , it will be time for you to think about a career-re-orientation ... ;-)

fred said...

and i must add :

there is extremely few persons in this world who i would trust with my life ...


Monsieur Gunner is among them ...

as Billy wrote , not because he liked some here , not because he liked to pin on EAC , not because the whole EAC management should consider Brain-transplant ...

just because of HIS principles ...!

that's make a world of difference , you may like or not the guy ...
at least there is ONE thing you can be sure of : Principles !!

fred said...

billy :

i forgot ...

do not thank me for the tip on reading schumpeter or chomsky ...

and bear in mind that there only ONE good experience :

your own !

julius said...

RonRoe,

Bill,

My real name and address is:

R...
Q...
A...
T...


that is your address???

There is
"... engeneering..."
at the same address?

You posted to Dave:

Dave,

We provide consultative services to financial firms whose products are valuations of credit-default swap contracts as well as other derivatives.

Both fits together - but in a strange way.
I need some real good explanations
- finding some other info's -
to explain you link to "..."
otherwise my impression is that you are using "non anglo saxon language" all the time !!!!!

I think you have a problem that must not be solved in this blog.


Julius

RonRoe said...

Mr. Goat,

Dad gum it! Just when you were getting my dander up, you make that eloquent post and more than redeem yourself, in my tired old eyes.

Your gracious apologies and generous truce offer are accepted, and your wise suggestions will be followed. I will no longer talk about Mr. Gunner.

I would also like to apologize to you and the other bloggers. If I had a point (Did I have a point? I don't remember), I should have made my point without insulting anyone. For that, I am sincerely sorry.

Our regularly scheduled programming will now resume.

RonRoe said...

Dave I. said:

"Nice job - by the way - on that whole collapse of the world economy thing..."

Yes, that was me. My bad.

BricklinNG said...

news on D-jet

I understand Diamond has told customers that the development process will slow down but continue with certification in mid 2010. They say that they are flying test jets constantly and think they may get 334 kts eventually but 315 at first with derated engine. Price will increase 25% for new orders so that would make it around $1.75 or $1.8 million. Their overall message seems to be that they must match their spending with their resources.

I do not know if these changes are a refund event for the depositors. If so, then they will need to decide whether to keep the faith and have a discount price as a reward or to take their money back and be relieved. Sound familiar? At least Diamond is an honest company making an honest effort. The USAF trains in their products.

Separately, I understand that a Cirrus official has said that their jet price will significantly exceed the hoped-for $1 million.

Dave said...

If a depositor paid 60 percent of the $2.15 million price, then by paying 50 percent of the remaining $860,000, he could buy a half share in a used Eclipse 500, although these are not formal Jet-Alliance pricing quotes. Jet-Alliance would manage the jet and place it on its Part 135 certificate to generate revenue.
Jet-Alliance Offers Plan for DayJet Eclipse 500s
Didn't Jet Alliance accuse others of being "predatory"? $860K for the privilege of become a Jet Alliance customer. Nice to see that Jet Alliance has been abusing their role on the customer committee so that they can grow their business by over 500%. No wonder Eclipse has had such problems as there are always those who try and take advantage of the situation which ends up undercutting long-term sustainability.

Black Tulip said...

Had considered posting the following:

-

Ron said, "We provide consultative services to financial firms whose products are valuations of credit-default swap contracts as well as other derivatives."

Ron, what would your Mother think if she knew you were doing that for a living?

-

But peace and tranquility has returned, so there is no reason for such an insult.

fred said...

dave :

am i understanding right ?

depositors paid (mostly ?) 60% on old price ...?
so : how about the price of 2.15 M$ ?

or is that , 50% of old price (860.000) to be paid to own a share of old DJet's Fpj ???

in both case : who could be stupid enough to buy junks at this price ?

fred said...

BT :

peoples dealing in collateral financing DO not have mothers ...
or they sold them long ago ...
can't remember !!! ;-)

but as you said ... peace !

eclipso said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
eclipso said...

"I did find it amusing to see all you little "cockroach" bloggers....."

Shane,
Are you back on this darned blog again?


Vern?...oh Vern????...is that you

WhyTech said...

"who screwed the State of New Mexico, City of Albuquerque and several thousand dedicated employees;"

Keep in mind that it takes at least two to screw. All were consenting adults.

I dont condone EAC's business practices in any way, but point out that they had willing "victims."

gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
airtaximan said...

OK, now I am curious...

Michael Turner said...

RonRoe,

I know and respect Mr. Cushman. He would never involve himself in CDS as you suggest. You are NOT Mr. Cushman. Please have the decency to delete your post claiming to be him.

Michael Turner

Dave Ivedorne said...

ATM:
Djet is in BIG trouble... laid off many folks a few days ago... no notice...

Is this rumor? Or even "snippet grade" news? I've been digging around a bit, and find no corroboration even at the newspaper in London, ON ( which DOES mention the big layoffs at Bombardier ). The gloom-and-doomiest I could come up with was this Flight Global article from a week ago:
"2008 was the year the shine came off Diamond Aircraft's success. "It was a disaster, a horror," admits Christian Dries, owner and chief executive of the Austrian airframer, which was hit by at least a triple-whammy of events."

EVERY airframer is cutting back ( including Gulfstream, IIRC ) or slowing things down, so delays and cutbacks in the D-Jet program would not exactly be "Man Bites Dog". On the other hand, if Diamond is facing imminent insolvency, that would be different...

DI

airtaximan said...

DI,

heard a credible rumor dozens of layoffs at end of business a few days ago, directly off the djet program.

it is hat it is... I am confident it is true, but I was not there.

it will come out soon, I imagine

Ken Meyer said...

Kathy--

Thanks for your kind comments. No offense was taken. I regret that my response to you was a little too curt.

I'm glad you like the plane. Owners certainly do. Mine is working great, and I'm enjoying flying it very much.

There is much going on behind the scenes, and for the moment, I can only drop in here from time to time.

Ken

bill e. goat said...

Hello RonRoe,
Thank you for accepting my appology for the courseness involved in my ill-attempted humor.

I hope you will be encouraged to continue participating. (I do hope you would delete the erroneous address posted though).

Robert Cushman, (whoever you are :), all I can say is, take solstice in the Hollywood axiom:

"There is no such thing as bad publicity".
:)

I got curious about that quote, and this is one of the things I found:
Success by Scandal
I would say in this case of this "Mr. Cushman" individual- just the opposite is true!!
Irony is pretty ironic...

An extrapolation of my proposition:
There is no such bad thing as bad publicity, except:
"There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary."
-Brendan Behan

I think maybe Shane had posted about this rather colorful Irish character before:
(In)famous quotes from Brian Behan

Life and times of Brian Behan

Shane Price said...

Identity Snippet

As should be clear by now, an attempt has been made to vilify a leading member of our Honor Roll, Gadfly.

Clearly I will be using the 'delete' button shortly.

Shane

Shane Price said...

Roel Gets Sued Snippet

Al Mann would very much like to nail down Roel, who seems to have gone missing with a considerable amount of his hard earned money.

Think in the tens of millions of dollars...

Or so papers filed in the Supreme Court of the State of New York are claiming.

Which reminds me, someone else went 'missing' with Al Mann money last July. I wonder what's happened to our very own 'simplest tool'?

You worried yet, Wedge?

You should be....

Shane

Shane Price said...

Mike McConnell Disowned Snippet

Colonel Michael Press wishes me to tell you that while he IS involved with one dodgy ex member of the Executive Team at what was EAC, he's not having anything to do with the former VP of 'everything except ethics' at EAC, Mike McConnell.

I'm sure you are all relieved to hear that Roel is considered better value....

Shane

Dave Ivedorne said...

Al Mann would very much like to nail down Roel, who seems to have gone missing with a considerable amount of his hard earned money.

Think in the tens of millions of dollars...

Or so papers filed in the Supreme Court of the State of New York are claiming.


Well, 10.2 million dollars, anyway.

The Courts' website is here.

Case info is:
Court: New York Civil Supreme
Index Number: 600849/2009
Case Name: MANN, ALFRED E. vs. ETIRC AVIATION S.A.R.L.
Case Type: Contract
Track: Expedited
RJI Filed: 03/20/2009

Six documents are filed - and the first one is Recommended Reading.

DI

airjet said...

Follow the EclipseJet on Twitter. New Twitter site set up to follow this blog and other new about Eclipse - Signup now...!

https://twitter.com/EclipseJet

Dave Ivedorne said...

Which reminds me, someone else went 'missing' with Al Mann money last July. I wonder what's happened to our very own 'simplest tool'?

You worried yet, Wedge?


I note that in the case of Pieper, Mann filed an expedited Request for Judicial Intervention. RiP is, after all, a world traveler.

Apparently similar measures weren't needed in the case of Wedge - saddled with an FPJ, he doesn't present as much of a "risk of flight".

Thank you very much, I'll be here all week. Try the veal. Seriously, try it - it's delicious!

DI

Black Tulip said...

Dave,

Does this mean Roel should be preparing to avoid:

Manhattan restaurants

Broadway shows

Connnecting flights through JFK

Shadow said...

Dave I,

The only things I detest more than veal is Wedge and Roel.

RonRoe said...

Dave Ivedorne sez,
"BZZZTT!!! Wrong, Ronniebaby. Vern sued the blog, in the case ECLIPSE AVIATION CORPORATION, a Delaware Corporation vs. JOHN DOE, blah, blah, blah, No. D-202-CV-2008-02624, ( filed under seal ). The Google subpoena lawsuit was filed subsequent to - and in its entirety, based on - that."

Daveybaby,

Thank you for pointing out my mistake. I stand corrected.

Black Tulip said...

"The only things I detest more than veal is Wedge and Roel."

Any remote chance that Raburn and Pieper could be housed in a small cage like a growing calf.

RonRoe said...

I apologize to anyone whose identity I may have accidentally misappropriated. I've been so busy wrecking the global economy that I got momentarily confused as to which blogger I was. I'm all better now, honest.

Shane has kindly deleted the post for me, so the secret location of our back-to-school headquarters is safe for now.

Deep Blue said...

MHO:

This thing is beyond dead. As for advice to the living dead (the owners and depositors) one might suggest a password protected Eclipse Critic Blog with a usage fee of $250. per inquiry and $500 per response batched in tens.

Why keep giving out free information and advice?

Dave said...

Six documents are filed - and the first one is Recommended Reading.

This is actually very revealing in how that it was publicly shown like Roel and Mann each put up DIP financing, but in reality it was only Mann who put up the DIP financing. This also raises the issue for the McRoeljet plan as Roel was one of the financiers of it, so McRoeljet is already on unsteady financial grounds. I don't see how Mann can expect to collect on this, but it does put a monkeywrench in any futures business dealings Roel wants to have in the US.

I think Shane should post the email exchange between Roel and Mann. The exchange in in the exhibits documents. Roel is quite a piece of work! It looks like Roel really shafted Mann as clearly he's decided to "enter the Chapter 7 discussion" as witnessed by the press releases. You'd think that others wouldn't want to take part in shafting Al Mann as that would bode ill for Eclipse 2.0 if they won the bid not to mention threaten the finances of Eclipse 2.0 as Mann could go after Roel's share.

Dave said...

This thing is beyond dead

Slugs like Roel keep things very lively. Perhaps the Favonius will get repoed and will be renamed the MannKind. I'd love to see Roel's boat taken away from him.

Dave said...

I think Roel has crossed the wrong person (or people). Perhaps there will be some justice finally as I believe until now Roel has been able to dodge bullets (Computer Associates comes to mind), but Mann can fight Roel with both PR and in the courts. The secured creditors might also feel the same as Mann, just it looks like Mann is taking this personally.

Black Tulip said...

Overheard in Albuquerque:

Hugh Jarse of the New Eclipsoidal Flying Machine Company, “Roel, you will have to show us more regarding your guarantee of payment. I read the email interchange between you and Al Mann.”

Roel Pieper, “I am a man of impeccable credentials and reputation. Are you telling me that my signature alone is insufficient to bind this transaction?”

Hugh, “We will accept small unmarked non-consecutive American bills in a brown envelope.”

Roel, “Consider the consequences to Eclipse employees, owners and depositors...”

Hugh, “We will accept small unmarked non-consecutive American bills in a brown envelope.”

airtaximan said...

so, Mann got conned by Vern and then Vern was kicked out by Roel, and Mann got conned by Roel.

amazing

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Al Mann should be sainted for his support of the preemie jet and those who tried to make it - it was he and he alone who reportedly provided several critical bridge loans to make payroll many times before the final bow was taken in ABQ.

With Mann I think these other guys will end up looking like the pikers many of us suspected them to be for the last manny years - and better yet, he has the resources and connections to make their lives miserable, poetic justice for once.

I can't say much about his choice of partners, but hey, many of us were taken in by the idea at one time or another, but Mann was a true believer and unlike so many other shmucks, he actually put HIS money where his mouth was.

Good on ya' Al, and Godspeed!

Dave said...

Al Mann should be sainted for his support of the preemie jet and those who tried to make it - it was he and he alone who reportedly provided several critical bridge loans to make payroll many times before the final bow was taken in ABQ.

With Mann I think these other guys will end up looking like the pikers many of us suspected them to be for the last manny years - and better yet, he has the resources and connections to make their lives miserable, poetic justice for once.


I tend to agree with that in that it looks like Mann made investing mistakes, but that he didn't personally did anything unethical in this and in fact did things to protect employees. Until now I've been slow to give Mann credit as I thought Mann and Roel were co-conspirators, but now I'm warming up to the idea Mann tried to do the right thing and wasn't thick as thieves with Roel.

RonRoe said...

Dave,

There's something you should know about Al Mann. He's the one who fired Vern Raburn.

The last time (before BK) that they ran out of money, Al said, in effect, "Vern goes or I don't provide the money."

bill e. goat said...

RR,
(Thanks for the details):
"There's something you should know about Al Mann. He's the one who fired Vern Raburn."

As CWMOR said:

"Good on ya' Al, and Godspeed!"

bill e. goat said...

Goat (to all),
"I would ask that you please don't relish the financial misfortune of others."

Shane (to all),
"I wonder what's happened to our very own 'simplest tool'? You worried yet, Wedge? You should be...."

I think I will allow one exception.

HA HA HA HA !!!
.)

bill e. goat said...

(of course I qualify that exception, with the restriction of loss only to the degree of apporpirate equivilent restitution).

Wedgie sold his Connie: if all the jilted suppliers, investors, employees, customers, and taxpayers, get reimbursed, I'd be happy if Wedge gets his Connie back.

Wedge's excellent former ride
Of course, one more caveat- it must be retrofitted with Avio-NG 1.0

:0
---------------------------------
It sounds like the current operating expenses of Wedge's EA500 are about the same as for the Connie...

michal said...

Maybe someone will educate me about such "guaranty" loans? What worth is such a guarantee, even signed in blood, when a debtor doesn't have funds to repay? Unless loan is somehow secured by tangible assets it is inherently risky. What did Al Mann think? Perhaps I am missing something.

Dave said...

Did Eclipse Jet not know that Roel owed Mann $10M? If they did know, why did they with Roel and if they didn't, that doesn't exactly speak well of their due diligence.

gadfly said...

Apology accepted to all concerned. And the goat will also probably throw out that earlier thing he was chewing on . . . it no longer matters. Wouldn't it be great if all matters were so easily reconciled?

gadfly

(It is always good to leave these things behind, and get on with more worthwhile matters. And "sometimes enemies" are sometimes our best future friends.)

WhyTech said...

"Wedgie sold his Connie:"

This particular acft wasnt all that cool. I've been inside. In rough shape and was at one time used as a sprayer - smelled like malathion.

Dave said...

Maybe someone will educate me about such "guaranty" loans? What worth is such a guarantee, even signed in blood, when a debtor doesn't have funds to repay? Unless loan is somehow secured by tangible assets it is inherently risky. What did Al Mann think? Perhaps I am missing something.

My biggest problem that I see with it from a legal standpoint is that Roel is a foreigner in a foreign land and not on US soil.

Given this new information how that Mann put up all $20M of the DIP, that makes me think that if Mann wanted to, he could just demand all the Eclipse assets be turned over to him as repayment of the DIP...he could even use the press releases and statements of the other bidders that the Eclipse valuation is at or below $20M. That might be the best thing anyway.

baron95 said...

Can someone succinctly explain what just happened regarding vilifying Gadfly?

I've been very short of time lately and feel left out. I need to find out what side of the fight to join ;)

Or I can just go out and have a drink instead, but which side should I toast?

gadfly said...

baron

Someone got carried away in their enthusiasm . . . nothing new about that. It got "fixed", and the tempest in a teapot is over. The good part is that maybe it will end up being a friendship, rather than a tragedy . . . that's the good part. 'Not to worry. I like things that can end on such a positive note. Don't you?

gadfly

(Now, hopefully, a whole bunch of us can use the weekend as a time of rest, and contemplation over important issues, as God has provided since creation.)

Dave said...

Now, hopefully, a whole bunch of us can use the weekend as a time of rest, and contemplation over important issues

I will contemplate shoes and ships and sealing-wax-Of cabbages and kings-And why the sea is boiling hot-And whether pigs have wings.

gadfly said...

And baron

If you must drink a toast, do it at home to both sides . . . that will be sufficient.

gadfly

And, Dave, they "do" have wings . . . the thing flew . . . and then ate up a huge amount of dinero. 'Have you not heard of "El Eclipso Puerco de la Ciudad de Albuquerque"?

bill e. goat said...

Gadfly,
Well said! Have a nice weekend. (Especially the part about past conflicts leading to future friendships! And God making the weekend for rest.

Dave,
First Fred, then Julius, now you- giving me homework this fine weekend!
The Walrus and the Carpenter
by Lewis Carroll

Baron,
"Or I can just go out and have a drink instead, but which side should I toast?"
May I suggest a toast to Rich, for his good deeds in preserving the blog?

Dave Ivedorne said...

Does this mean Roel should be preparing to avoid:

Manhattan restaurants

Broadway shows

Connnecting flights through JFK


BT,

Having just read the email exchanges, I'm of the opinion he should probably avoid commerce of any sort, west of Belarus, east of the Pacific Ocean, and north of the Equator ( though Cuba, Venezuela, and Sudan might be "safe" in that regard ). Given the likelihood that he's similarly "charmed" influential folks в России, he may just wish to head directly to Zimbabwe forthwith.

DI

Shadow said...

Wait until the Russian mob comes looking for Roel. They don't file lawsuits to get even.

Dave Ivedorne said...

Tick, Tock, etc.

March 4th 1:34AM
Al to Roel:
Ripster, What up? Say, you appear to have failed to honor our little agreement ( payable four days ago ). I got plans to make and things to buy - get with the program!
-----------------------------------

March 4th 3:25AM
Roel to Al:
Al, baby, stop harshing my buzz! This one's for the investor group, and there's no telling what they'll decide. If they leave me holding the bag, it's Food Stamps for me, baby! So chill a for a bit; maybe they'll decide to swoop in for a little Chapter 7 action.
----------------------------------

March 4th 6:24PM ( typo? swequentially, this would likely be 6:24AM )
Al to Roel:
Investor group, inshpestor poop. You personally guaranteed it, and it's time to fork it over. If you're trying to say that you were jiving me, you just met Big Trouble.
-----------------------------------

March 4th 10:31AM
Roel to Al:
I already said everything I'm going to say. They said they'd back me up.
"It is what it is."
-----------------------------------

March 4th 2:01PM
Al to Roel:
Yo, Peepster, what you're saying is utterly dissociated from what you're obligated to do.
-----------------------------------

March 8th 10:19PM
Dear Mr. Pieper:
We are the attorneys for Al Mann and the Al Mann Living Trust ... As you know, you are presently in willful default of your payment obligations ... we understand that you have told Mr. Mann that, in violation of your representations and warranties under the Guaranty, you allegedly don't have adequate funds or assets to meet your overdue payment obligations...

Accordingly, demand is hereby made that you immediately provide us with all financial or other information necessary to assess your personal assets and liabilities. For the avoidance of doubt, the information requested covers not only "your" direct or indirect holdings, but also those you control for any family member, charitable trust, government or foriegn entity ... your most recent U.S. tax return; any other tax returns outside the U.S., monthly bank account statements, statements reflecting stock or equity holdings, 401K statement or other pension plan, documents to disclose any real estate holdings ( including deeds, mortgages, PSAs, boats, automobiles, planes, etc ), contracts that entitle you to payment, and everything you've bought sold or thought about - ALL INCLUSIVE - in the last twelve months.

Same for your wife. And your little dog, too.

Don't f*@k with us - we'll return the favor, a hundred fold.

Sincerely yours,
The Lawyers You'll Wish You'd Never Met

( Some liberties may have been taken with the transcription here )
DI

Turn-And-Burn said...

Shane Price said... The DayJet FPJ's had an 'internal' nickname. FFM's. This was short for 'Flying Failure Modes'. One of my reliable sources passed on the following:-

Two of our crews had "cascading avionics failures" that caused all of the screens to go blank. One spotted an airfield down below and landed there. The other managed to restore his avionics system, restore communications with ATC and found himself close to Freeport Bahamas. His first officer quit working at DayJet, as a result of this.


Shane you are so full of shit. What ever happened to the report scripted by you about the incident of the engine that fell off during taxiing, and skidded across the taxiway. Any more "reliable" stories or sources?????

Dave Ivedorne said...

What ever happened to the report scripted by you about the incident of the engine that fell off during taxiing, and skidded across the taxiway.

T&B:
Remember when the blog recognized that sometimes news would come across the transom of something, but it hadn't been verified or corroborated? Sometimes it remained unverified, and sometimes it turned out to be true.

We call those sorts of items "snippets". Maybe the term hadn't come into use by the time an engine supposedly fell off while taxiing.

Oh well.

You really should stop by more often - maybe once or twice when you're NOT in a foul mood. And I realize that the side effects are debilitating, but you really should try harder to stick with the schedule on the Risperdal. These outbursts are actually a bit unflattering to you.

( For the record, I am not a psychiatrist or medical doctor, and therefore not competent to diagnose the sort of conditions of which I "speak", or to prescribe meds for whatever it is that ails you. I'm teasing your ornery ass. )

Would you like the Xenazine cocktail?
DI

Kathy said...

What became (who was paid) of the $106M contract with CSC for IT and SAP support deal announced around 10/14/2008?

Niner Zulu said...

What would be really interesting is to see a count of the number of FPJ's that are AOG. Or DOA. I think it's pretty much the same thing at this point as AOG is likely to be a permanent situation if, or when, it happens.

Maybe we should put a "FPJ health meter" on the blog - kind of like the ones you see in a video game. The bar starts out green - i.e. all FPJ's flying - and shrinks as planes go AOG. Eventually the bar turns yellow - warning - and then red.

Most video games allow for "resurrection", otherwise no one could play the game after they are killed the first time. I wonder if the same would be true for the FPJ?

It would also be fun/interesting to have an "office pool" where everyone could bet on how soon Ken and Mike's FPJ's stop flying. My quarter says they have 6 - 9 months before they are AOG permanently.

Dave Ivedorne said...

What became (who was paid) of the $106M contract with CSC for IT and SAP support deal announced around 10/14/2008?

BK document 584 lists unpaid post-petition debts ( 1300 to 1400 entries ). CSC is listed on three entries totaling around $1.8 million, for approx 6 months "service". I believe they're the largest post-petition creditors listed other than Al Mann & ETIRC with the DIP funds ( just checked - yup. BK attorneys Allen & Overy come in next at $1.55 Million ).

DI

Dave Ivedorne said...

My quarter says they have 6 - 9 months before they are AOG permanently.

Which is about 23 cents more than they'll be worth when that DOES happen.

Dave Ivedorne said...

Kathy,
Oops. I meant 4 months, not 6.

H.M.E said...

Don't know if this has been posted before.

There is a coalition of law firms led by Stueve Siegel Hanson LLP (Kansas) who intend to go after EAC top management.


source: http://www.stuevesiegel.com/CM/CurrentCases/eclipseaviation.asp

quote:

" ... We are currently investigating potential claims against the officers and directors of Eclipse Aviation, Inc. for grossly mismanaging the company and for taking down payments on aircraft that the company had no reasonable possibility of delivering and using these deposits to fund past debts rather than to build the aircraft on which the down payment was made...."

It seams they are offering to do on no-win-no-fee basis.

Dave said...

It seams they are offering to do on no-win-no-fee basis.

Even if they do win, I think it would be like trying to get blood from a stone. That isn't to say it wouldn't be worthwhile, just don't expect there to be a lot of money.

RonRoe said...

Dave,

EAC had millions of dollars in D & O Insurance.

Law firms may overestimate their chances of winning a case, but they don't take a case where there's no money to be had.

H.M.E said...

I think that the customers who paid their 60% for early serial numbers (261 - 300) may not get anything. Similarly for the 10% deposit payments.

But the customers who entered into purchase agreements and paid the 60% for latter serial numbers may have a claim.

If the lawyers can convice the court that EAC managerment knew that they had no chance of delivering the planes contracted for in Novermber 2008 (christmas special) and those contracted for in May 2008, then we are talking about 200 customers who are entitled to maybe 160 million.

I do agree however that even if the court obligates the BOD and top mamagement (CEO, CFO, etc...) to collectively return those payments from their private estates, the customers may end up with very little after the legal fees.

But at least, if I am a customer, it would give me some satisfaction to drag their ugly behinds in front of the judge and watch them go BK even if I only recover 10% of what I have paid.

Serves them right IMO. They must have known the bad financial situation in Fall 2008. Yet they stood by and watched, while Wedge signed illegal contract agreements and collected customers' money.

At the end of the day, if these lawers are willing to do it on a percentage basis, I don't see why not. I don't think there is any other alternative post chapter 7.

Shane Price said...

Turn-and-Burn,

Shane you are so full of shit. What ever happened to the report scripted by you about the incident of the engine that fell off during taxiing, and skidded across the taxiway.

Same thing that happened to the company that would build thousands of twin jets for $889,000.

Shane
PS I may indeed be 'full of shit' but at least I right, most of the time. Unlike you...

WhyTech said...

" ... We are currently investigating potential claims against the officers and directors of Eclipse Aviation, Inc. for grossly mismanaging the company and for taking down payments on aircraft that the company had no reasonable possibility of delivering "

Now we are getting to the good part!

airtaximan said...

"They must have known the bad financial situation in Fall 2008. Yet they stood by and watched, while Wedge signed illegal contract agreements and collected customers' money."

there were many misrepresentations, ommissions of fact, etc...

- bogus order book numbers: in order to make it seem like the plane was indemand, the delivery-positions were worth something, and the hugh volume business model was viable

- first flight with ej22: was a stunt designed to take deposit money eventhough they knew the engine was going in the garbage and would require a 3 year delay and redesign

- calling 500 progress payments: as if they really believed they could produce hundreds of planes in the first 6 months or so - they produced almost none in the first year.

** one could make the argument that we were able to see all this was bogus, so why not an investor? Is this even important? Misrepresentations are misrepresentations, and these were clearly designed to relieve depositors of their money.

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

EAC had millions of dollars in D & O Insurance.

Law firms may overestimate their chances of winning a case, but they don't take a case where there's no money to be had.


I didn't say that there was no many to be had, but that it wouldn't be a large amount. Even if there's $10M in D&O, I think that's a small amount compared to the size judgment that could be received. Also there's a fine line in what D&O will cover, which for instance it wouldn't cover fraud on one hand while on the other hand a certain degree of mismanagement is generally allowed under the principle of the business judgment rule. I think the best claims are for fraud (like with the depositors), but it is those claims that wouldn't be covered by D&O. I also think the best claims could be made against Roel, but I think actually collecting money from him would be the most difficult. Eclipse is a Delaware corporation and Delaware gives corporate directors and officers wide lattitude in how they perform their jobs as long as they aren't fraudulent. I of all people am not saying there isn't a case against the directors and officers, just that as far as actually collecing the money goes, I'm not seeing it as being a large amount avaiable to collect compared to the judgment that could be received.

bill e. goat said...

Turn & Burn,
As an honorable (?) member of the "Honor Role", a.k.a., Wedge's Christmas Card list (in fact, I note you are at the very TOP of the list); I am wondering, what is your angle on this Eclipse stuff?

Shane properly qualified remarks about the Dayjet incident, and in fact, as I recall the post was more an inquiry for information regarding the particulars of exactly what happened, rather than a declaration of events.

I remember seeing you stop by from time to time, but don't recollect what theme you are advancing (other than insulting our gracious blog host of late).

Kathy's previous post on this thread confirmed the avionics failures on the ground, that the DJ crews noted in the air.

So, those specific items aside, I assume (I'm going out on a limb here) that you are an intelligent fellow, and have something to say beyond blurting insults. I encourage you to state and develop your proposition here.

For only a few examples; mine is that EAC was run by rabid weasels, and enabled by customers and investors who willingly suspended reality in hope to get something that was otherwise too good to be true. Ken's is the airplane is great. Gadfly's is morale bankruptcy preceded financial bankruptcy. I am curious what your proposition is- I assume you have some observations which substantiate your thoughts, so please join the fray and contribute more than insults.

I don't say that to be flippant: I reckon as a long time blogger here, you have a lot to contribute, if you would do so. By backing up Ken if that is your proposition, or giving Wedge some *DESPERATELY* needed support here, if that is your proposition, or elaborating on technical, financial, metaphysical aspects of EAC. At any rate, I figure you have something substantial to share, and I wish you'd do so, rather than drive-by-snipes, which I believe don't do anything to advance your proposition (and only serve to confuse what that is).

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

Another view of how "squirrely" top EAC management was?
Rabid Squirrels
(Nah, these little guys are WAY too intelligent :)

Well behaved weasels
Maybe with proper therapy, there is hope...

WhyTech said...

"I'm not seeing it as being a large amount avaiable to collect"

Dave,

Mann, Kresa, Pohling, etc must have substantial personal assets. Vern probably does not. Are you saying that these are not exposed in such a suit, or that the likely judgment would be so large that these assets would be insignificant?

fred said...

Whytech :

Yes ... indeed !

you may be so right that i start to wonder IF Roel's move to south of france (instead of staying in his own country ) is related to the storm which is going to follow ...

if He did the right arrangements , whatever is the size or value of his house there , it may be almost next to impossible for any creditors to only cast an eye on it ...

Damn rat !!

fred said...

Billy :

morale bankruptcy preceded financial bankruptcy

billy , i am really sorry to make you notice that your words are so obvious , that they almost become a non-sens ...

IF Financial Bankruptcy can happen for a myriad of reasons to almost any of us ...

Morale Bankruptcy leads ONLY to the second one , one way or an other ... ;-)

this is where it is important to remember " Money = a great tool , but the worst goal !"

Dave said...

Mann, Kresa, Pohling, etc must have substantial personal assets. Vern probably does not. Are you saying that these are not exposed in such a suit, or that the likely judgment would be so large that these assets would be insignificant?

I think those most exposed have the least assets. Mann, Kresa and Poling could probably demonstrate that their actions fit within the business judgment rule based on what information Vern supplied to them and basically put it on Vern. These guys can probably be shown to have made some bad judgments, but that's not enough to get a verdict against them. I see those most exposed for personal liability to be the officers (as in Vern) and Roel, but that group has less personal assets or personal assets that are harder to get at than the rest of the directors. Based on what I know now, I don't think there would be for instance a $100M judgment that would be enforced against Mann's personal assets while I could see that happening to Vern with Vern obviously only being able to pay pennies on the dollar.

H.M.E said...

Let us consider for the moment that the first flight incident and the bogus order book, the disruptive technology claims, the high production rate etc... were publicity stunts or truth stretching for propaganda purposes, i.e. border line unethical but maybe not 100% illegal.

But if we focus on the last 12 month activity prior to CH 11 filing i.e. from mid November 2007 till mid November 2008:

We now know that the company is 1 Billion USD in the red. The question then becomes: what was the financial situation at the time of the Christmas special and afterwards?

As I understand it, company delivered about 180 unfinished articles (sn 80 - 260) and collected final payment of about 90 million
Add to that new investment of ~ 150 million (winter 2008), then the total legal cash inflow is about 210 million.

On the other hand, company employed 1500 persons for a year. Their wages including overheads would be about the same, say 200 million.
Even if we subtract another 200 million for the amount of money owed to suppliers for the ordered parts used for the 180 deliveries + 30 inventory, it is obvious that most of the 1 Billion deficit has accumulated before 2008.
For all purposes, the company was officially bankrupt at November 2007, even with inflated book value of the IP assets.


Maybe I am wrong, but it seams to me that the BOD did not stop The Tool from entering into bad faith contracts (definition) on three separate occasions:
50 Delivery contracts in December 2007 for 30+ million
150 Delivery contracts in April-May 2008 (while the blog was kept busy with the SLAP)
16 Delivery contacts (BK customer replacement) in summer 2008
Not to mention opening the order book to the public for a new phantom product !

After downloading the BK documents that Dave linked to, my gut feeling is that the company future cash flow projections must have been in the red to the tune of at least 600 million in December 2007
There is no other possible way to accumulate all that debt just in the past few months after signing these purchase contracts.

I confess that I have not been following this blog in detail, but I do recall that it was general consensus in summer 2007 that BK was expected before end of 2007.
Some even predicted at that time that there would not be a chapter 11 for this company but it will go straight to chapter 7.
I think that anyone who ran the numbers understood this to be the only logical outcome at the time.

But I (and the blog) were wrong and this did not happen. Why? Because we (at least myself) were assuming normal ethical practices.
We knew that The Tool was "creative", but in no way one would have expected that red lines would be crossed so badly.
I even recall bloggers giving The Tool credit for his ability to raise money based on his powers of persuasion.
But what the spread sheets could not account for was the possibility of outright fraudulent activity that might have taken place.

I am not a lawyer. But I think that this kind of activity, (i.e. potentially entering into bad faith contracts) may be illegal under the law.
I understand that the investors are immune (being an LLC) and this is fair.

But how about those in charge ie BOD and the VPs?
Surely they could have put their foot down in December 2007 and said enough is enough after looking at Q4 balance sheet. THey could have fired the CEO to protect themselves and the customers, but they elected not to. Why? Stock options? IPO? Believing in miracles? Something else?

In conclusion, and at the risk of sounding politically incorrect:
In other places, illegal activity of this kind do not go unpunished.
The "LAW" makes sure that a person who was found to have engaged in dishonourable behaviour, would not be able to dip his hands into other people pockets ever again (or his own pockets for that matter).

Can the US DA charge the management and BOD for misconduct if the facts warrant it?
Why did he not even investigate? Did any of the customers file a formal complaint alleging misconduct?
Can a criminal case be brought against guilty parties or is it too late after BK? What is the time limit?

It would be very unjust if people who may have been engaged in such shameful behaviour can just walk away into the sunset and keep their bonuses / severance pay.
If they are found guilty by the US court, then at least they should be stripped from their financial assets.
Otherwise, there will be another similar fiasco, and there will be a lot of other unsuspecting victims.

Those 216 customres (60% progress payers) may not collect their ~200 million or even 10% of that. But it does not mean that legal justice should not be served.

Just an opinion.

Dave said...

But how about those in charge ie BOD and the VPs?
Surely they could have put their foot down in December 2007 and said enough is enough after looking at Q4 balance sheet. THey could have fired the CEO to protect themselves and the customers, but they elected not to. Why? Stock options? IPO? Believing in miracles? Something else?


I think much of this could be traced to what Vern told them as well as past performance of Vern in getting funding. I believe the directors had a reasonable expectation that Eclipse would keep on getting funding if not actually turn around. The directors might have made bad decisions, but I think it will be very challenging to show that this was beyond the business judgment rule and that the blame couldn't be placed on Vern for providing misinformation, omissions or outright fraud to the board.

bill e. goat said...

WT,
Where did you come across Wedge's Connie? (Oshkosh?- I think John Travolta owns it now?).

Oops- nope- the other way around!
"The second Constellation to join the airshow circuit was Vern Raburn’s “MATS Connie”, C121A N494TW. This aircraft is an ex-USAF VIP transport, which was converted to a sprayer in the early 1970’s. An interesting note on this aircraft is that she was owned by the actor John Travolta for a short time during the mid-1980’s. Vern purchased her in 1987 and restored her to flying condition. She made her debut at the 1992 Oshkosh airshow and thrilled the crowd by performing a close formation fly-by with Save-A-Connie’s L1049H"
The Few, The Proud, The Connies
(Sure is a pretty airplane- can't quite imagine it as a crop duster- that must have been an IMPRESSIVE spectacle to watch!! :)

If it was used for malathion spraying, it was probably the only contrivance he has ever been involved with that had a real dedication to getting rid of "bugs".
,)
-----------------------------------
For those gentle bloggers not familiar with it (I don't know diddly about it either), and perhaps familiar with the "fruit fly spraying" controversy in California (I don't know diddly about that either, except that it was extraordinarily noisy on both sides), here's some dope on it. I think it is/was used for aerial mosquito control too.
Malation

Turboprop_pilot said...

What can we do to help the lawyers go after Wedge and Roel? Should we assume that they know of the blog? Any we can help in nailing these crooks would be satisfying (imagine the repossession of Wedge's FPJ).

ex Turboprop_pilot

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
"Money = a great tool , but the worst goal"
THAT is a wise observation!!

I sure wish our Wedge had had that sentiment...before both forms of bankruptcy were manifested.

WhyTech said...

"I believe the directors had a reasonable expectation that Eclipse would keep on getting funding if not actually turn around. "

Maybe, but these are highly experienced managers and directors. No doubt that Vern is the prime mover, but these guys were far more experienced than he in running a business and manufacturing complex products, and it could be argued that they had a fiduciary responsibility that went beyond just the info supplied by Vern. What did they know (what should they have known) and when did they know it? If this ever got to the point of a jury trial, my bet is that these fat cats would get little sympathy from the jury.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Interesting that Zoom has not commented on the Mann-RiP suit yet - that would seem to be big news re: the RiP-Press show and the overall BK situation.

I mean if someone of Mann's character and resources is going after one of the five principals of McRoelJet would that not rate a news story?

I would be interested to hear from the owners as to what they rate McRoelJet at now vs. a week ago? We already know that McRoelJet inaccurately described tacit approval or endorsement of the EOG - talk about your strange bedfellows. One of the five leaders is bringing with him the destraction and exposure of a suit seeking what will probably be $11M by the time it is done.

In his e-mail to Al, Roel suggests that he will be bankrupt without his investors.

Newsflash Roel - if you WILL be bankrupt without OPM, you are ALREADY bankrupt.

I reiterate my offer to the owners, you need support, and in order to hit the ground running when the next big development in the BK proceeding occurs, someone needs to be working now on the plans and strategies.

ColdWetMack@gmail.com

Dave said...

We are becoming the United States of Enron complete with SPEs for off-balance sheet transactions to get around regulations and reduce transparency. Acting like Enron but on a trillion dollar scale is not the way to save the economy.

Dave said...

Maybe, but these are highly experienced managers and directors. No doubt that Vern is the prime mover, but these guys were far more experienced than he in running a business and manufacturing complex products, and it could be argued that they had a fiduciary responsibility that went beyond just the info supplied by Vern. What did they know (what should they have known) and when did they know it? If this ever got to the point of a jury trial, my bet is that these fat cats would get little sympathy from the jury.

I think there are any number of legal defenses. One thing that has come to my mind is that the NM SIC has been a parallel fiduciary with Eclipse much like the board and it is a matter of public record that they too believed what the Eclipse execs told them. Also I believe this case would be in the Delaware Chancery court where there are no juries and if not there, Delaware law would still apply in whatever court this ended up at. I think the case would be very difficult against those who have the most personal assets while it would be easiest against those who have the least personal assets. Directors and officers of Delaware corporations get wide lattitude for how to conduct business as long as they operate in good faith.

fred said...

Dave :

you remind me of a colleague who was with me the other day on the train from London ...

his mother is form USA , when the passport-control guy came , he asked "Where do you come from?" (meaning : do you hold an European Passport ...) the Colleague answered "I am from Ponzi-land !":-)

before the situation got "out of control" he explained that it was some humor ...

fred said...

and beside , if any is kind enough to divide the total sum of grants to Banks , failed businesses and others credit-firms up to now (on tax-payers) by the numbers of souls living in USA ...

USA GDP = 76% consumer's spending !

do you need a little sketch to figure out how to save economy ? ;-)

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Good point Fred.

The extended cost of the Obama/Congress Spendapalooza for the next few years is approaching the annual GDP of the US, $11T and counting.

As I said to RiP I say to the uh-uh-uh-uh-President and his cohorts in the Congress, if you are bankrupt without OPM, you are already bankrupt.

For those looking for what is coming in the not too distant future I recommend the following:

http://tinyurl.com/c36kmz

bill e. goat said...

Hi Fred,
"you may be so right that i start to wonder IF Roel's move to south of france (instead of staying in his own country ) is related to the storm which is going to follow ..."

This got me to wondering...re" Roel's move was partially for family safety- his wife was stabbed- but I never heard if it was "attacked" or "murdered".
RP per Wikipedia

I am happy to note she survived.

But in surfing around for that good bit of news, I came across this:
Premier of Netherlands ??
Well, Duke of Albuquerque perhaps...

H.M.E said...

TP said:
"...imagine the repossession of Wedge's FPJ.."

I don't think he owns it. It appears to be a lease.
From the Exhibit document filed in law suite AM vs RP (required reading guys, lots of good info):

Asset purchase agreement of EAC by EAI (ch 11):
Schedule A-1: Excluded Contracts:
59. Aircraft Lease Agreement between EAC and VR, dated as of August 27,2008.


So ETIRC would not be honouring the lease of VR for his plane post ch 11 sale.
I think he must have returned it by now.

fred said...

ClodWet ...

thanks ... but you know the other day , i was in the "observers" in LondonSummit ...

what a fuc***g big waste of time !

i was wondering when they would all touch each other asses to make jokes !!

in french there is a saying for this : " The mountain has gave birth to a tiny mouse !"

big lack of ambition : The Monetary Fund is getting an other T = wow , what an exploit !!! it is printed money ... so why not a Zillion while we are at it ??? ;-)

and those "Tax-heaven" even more hilarious ...
3 countries are on Black-list , most are on a grey-list ...

to me ,that sounds like saying to a woman "are you Fully pregnant or just a bit ?" !!

fred said...

Billy


the Wikipedia on roel is very mild , i my opinion ...

you see , roel was supposed to have masses of cash with him ...

=He didn't have any ...

He was supposed to have no-knowledge of EAC finances abyss before becoming CEO ...

=in , fact there is no way he couldn't know !

he was supposed to have direct access to Russia PM offices and have him to grant whatever to a production-plant ...

= In fact , no ! but i hope to be able to give details on this soon , seems to be very weird and somehow funny ...

He is supposed to have moved to France for family-safety ...

= ???

you see some peoples present things under a certain light , while they do in reality the opposite ...

but i am sure you know about !!! ;-)

WhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WhyTech said...

"as long as they operate in good faith."

I would also assume that they would have to be seen as not being negligent in performing their duty as directors.

This would seem to be the crux of the matter. A smoking gun (email) or two could be quite influential in tipping this to an unfavorable outcome for the Board.

airtaximan said...

since day one, most of use said, either:

1- these guys are a bunch of idiots who know very little about aviation and aiplane making

or,

2- these guys are a bunch of dishonest thieves

I think we are still debating, and WT is correct - one or two smoking emails will decide... with the looming legal action contemplated by Mann, we might just have a forum for the kind of finger pointing that results some evidence coming to light.

Stay tuned

Shane Price said...

Email Interchange Snippet

From Al Mann, early Wed March 4 To Roel, Subject: DIP

Roel, apparently you have not honored your obligation for the DIP loan that was due last Saturday and you have not even responded to my earlier notices. I need that money for another obligation of mine. Please tell me when you will pay. If I do not hear from you I will have no choice but to turn this over to my lawyers and this would then cost you much more.

Al Mann


Response from Roel (via his PA) later the same day:-

Al,

As I mentioned this is a matter for my investor group and not me personally. They are avoiding the matter, and I have no control over their decision. Personally I will likely go bankrupt if my investors abandon me and don not back me as they had agreed they would. I hope to hear from them as they look to decide to enter the chapter 7 discussion or not.

Roel


From Al to Roel, later the same day:

Roel, your investor group certainly has the primary obligation regarding the DIP but you personally guaranteed it and I look to you for payment. If you are now saying that your guarantee was bogus then that would be dishonest and you would face a heap of trouble. If I do not have your commitment for prompt payment I will instruct my lawyers to take all measures available.

Alfred E. Mann.


Response from Roel later again:

Al,

My email contains all I can say. There was nothing bogus or dishonest. I received confirmation that they would back me up. If they don't, I am in trouble as I indicated. It is what it is. if we come back into the chapter 7 situation, things could be different again, but I don't know that for a few more days.

Roel


Concluding reply from Al, that afternoon.

Roel, your response does not comply with your obligation. I insist that you honor your guaranty. Since you have implied that you will not I have no choice but to proceed to protect my interests.

Alfred E. Mann.

airjet said...

Investigative report - Looking for Eclipse pilots to interview. Please email us7000@gmail.com

Follow the EclipseJet on Twitter. New Twitter site set up to follow this blog and other news about Eclipse - Signup now...!

https://twitter.com/EclipseJet

Dave said...

1- these guys are a bunch of idiots who know very little about aviation and aiplane making
or,
2- these guys are a bunch of dishonest thieves


It isn't mutually exclusive and I think there's a mix. Vern and Roel I think were both, while I think with Mann he was just #1. The same probably also applies to Poling and Kresa. I look at the former VP of the manufacturing who came from Ford and that probably had something to do with the board, but that bad hiring was because of #1 not #2.

Dave said...

Email Interchange Snippet

Thanks Shane!

WhyTech said...

"Email Interchange Snippet"

Wow!!! We are REALLY getting to the good part!

H.M.E said...

In addition to the email exchange posted by Shane (and paraphrased by DI), the filed documents also has the email from AM lawyers to RP (Exhibit F).
Pretty scary letter. RP is in trouble.

In case some readers find it difficult to locate the documents (took me some time to figure it out), here is the step by step method::
1) go to http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/webcivil/FCASMain
2) type in the funny characters in the box then click on Submit
3) Click Index search
4) Enter 600849/2009 in the index number, then hit Find Case(s)
5) Click on the Index number link to get a popup
6) At the bottom of the popup, click on Show eFiled Docs

Two pdf files are of Interest:

a) Summons: Gives a good summery
b) Exhibit: Has LOTS of eye opening info.

Dave said...

) Click Index search
4) Enter 600849/2009 in the index number, then hit Find Case(s)


Doing Party Search is easier. Just search for ETIRC.

WhyTech said...

"We are REALLY getting to the good part!"

I am thinking that what is coming on multiple legal fronts will make Vern look like a wuss when it comes to being litigious.

H.M.E said...

Thanks Dave.
I am not good in Internet surfing.


Dave said: "It isn't mutually exclusive and I think there's a mix."

Maybe also just a bunch of the new bread of executives who were having a wet dream of a quick in-and-out IPO. They really didn't care less about building a real company, just a one off product.

Maybe they saw an opportunity for first-to-market a high tech product that may make them $$ million each in a couple of years and went for it.

But for the life of me I cannot figure out the Ford guy. Unlike Wedge who is from IT (dot com), he comes from manufacturing and surely knows that this being a manufacturing company it would take decades to aquire the know how from within.

Then wasn't there another guy from Northern Grumman? What was his role?

Turn-And-Burn said...

Shane Price said... Same thing that happened to the company that would build thousands of twin jets for $889,000.

Shane

PS I may indeed be 'full of shit' but at least I right, most of the time. Unlike you...


As usual, doesn't seem so. The Eclipse was NEVER offered for $899K. $837,500, yes. But never $889K. Wrong again.

Dave said...

Then wasn't there another guy from Northern Grumman? What was his role?

I believe you are talking about Kent Kresa who got promoted to Chairman at GM since Kentyboy did such a good job with Eclipse.

WhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WhyTech said...

"I believe you are talking about Kent Kresa "

Who had lots of experience building airplanes - just not cheap ones.

baron95 said...

"But if we focus on the last 12 month activity prior to CH 11 filing i.e. from mid November 2007 till mid November 2008", fraud, blah, blah, blah,....

What an useless exercise. All they had to show is that they were working on additional source of funds/financing, which they were, to show that there was a reasonable basis to believe they could build the planes.

Next.

bill e. goat said...

WT,
re: Kent Kresa,
Also lots of experience:

1) Wild cost overruns,

2) Delivery schedules meet years late,

3) Operating costs that grossly exceed predictions

4) Real-world production rates of about 10% planned.

5) Program management shrouded in secrecy and isolated from overview.

6) Sole source supplier for on-going retrofits.

7) Failure to perform in alternative markets (YF-23).

Yikes- I thought the guy was just a drooling idiot- I just didn't realize he was so exquisitely qualified to implement his unique business acumen at Eclipse.

But hey, the Dolt Club awarded both Kresa and Wedge Collier trophies, so I guess they really DO have a lot in common.

WhyTech said...

"I just didn't realize he was so exquisitely qualified"

Billy,

From your list it seems that he was supremely qualified to anticipate similar problems at EAC, and help the Co. avoid them - what diligent directors are supposed to do!

bill e. goat said...

T&B,
Come'on, if you're going to bother posting, post something substantive.

"As usual, doesn't seem so. The Eclipse was NEVER offered for $899K. $837,500, yes. But never $889K. Wrong again."

Thanks for the clarification. But Shane's point was, Eclipse widely missed their price mark. You just reinforced his proposition.

I'm still waiting to hear your proposition. I suspect you are reluctant to post it, and worried about criticism. Me too sometimes. But like I said, if you're going to post, make it something worthwhile.

(And it would help if it were at least occasionally good natured :)

bill e. goat said...

T&B,

I note you elected not to comment on the first 14 words of Shane's 16 word sentence:

"Same thing that happened to the company that would build thousands of twin jets"

???
.)

airtaximan said...

Baron,

I would agree - but somehow, I think they misrepresented the business to potential investors, as well.

But, you make a good point - these guys were a start up. An 11 year old start up, with a lot of capital blown, but nonetheless, a startup.

So, the way you remain in business, IS to attract capital, in most cases.

What is your opinion about the other issues that appear to have been misrepresented?
- first flight stunt
- bogus order book
- 500 scheduled delivery progress payment

Also, I am still curious about Peter Reed's timely departure at the end of 2006 was it? This was the point in time where hundreds of deliveries were promised, and NONE were made. This appears to relate to the 3rd issue above... a good reason to leave, IMO.

Dave said...

I would agree - but somehow, I think they misrepresented the business to potential investors, as well.

But you have to define "they." I think "they" are primarily Vern and secondarily Roel and some of the VPs. I don't think "they" is the set of all Directors and all Officers. I think different people have different liability and in most cases no liability at all. I think there has been a lot of mismanagement, but that isn't something legally actionable, particularly for a Delaware corporation.

airtaximan said...

bill...

try $779,000

airtaximan said...

T&B,

I am sure there are many offered for $889k, nowadays... just no takers.

;)

bill e. goat said...

H.M.E.,
Thanks for the titillating news:
"We are currently investigating potential claims against the officers and directors of Eclipse Aviation, Inc."

I never wanted EAC to go BK, but just didn't see anyway it could be avoided.

But I AM THRILLED at the prospect of those RESPONSIBLE for the largest ponzi scheme in GA history be held ACCOUNTABLE.

ALL OF THEM. EVEN THOSE WHO LEFT THE PARTY EARLY.
(How do YOU spell W-E-D-G-E ??)
------------------------------------

Dave,
"I'm not seeing it as being a large amount available to collect compared to the judgment that could be received."

True, regrettably, but still, I concur with H.M.E.'s sentiment:

"But at least, if I am a customer, it would give me some satisfaction to drag their ugly behinds in front of the judge and watch them go BK even if I only recover 10% of what I have paid. Serves them right IMO."

And, more satisfying than that, it would serve to "raise the bar" of ethical conduct by others in the future, should they be tempted to replicate the Eclipse "business model".

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

You guys should ask the day jet boys what happens to the engines if you turn off the battery masters. Have fun...

bill e. goat said...

I was going to say "fraud and ponzi" scheme.

Can I do that?

Can I say

FRAUD

FRAUD

FRAUD

I'm not sure- If it's nice to say

FRAUD

FRAUD

FRAUD

or not.

Opinions on whether it is nice to say

FRAUD

FRAUD

FRAUD

anyone ??

airtaximan said...

Firm's jet lacks sky-high price tag

Article from:The Boston Herald

Article date:March 13, 2000 Author: McLaughlin, Tim More
2000 Boston Herald.

"A start-up aviation company run by a former Lotus Development executive plans to build a business jet for less than one-fifth the cost of industry leaders.

In a bid to revolutionize air travel, Vern Raburn said his company, Eclipse Aviation Corp., will build and deliver by 2003 a 6-passenger, twin-engine jet for $775,000. The Scottsdale, Ariz., company recently received $60 million from a group of wealthy investors that included Bill Gates, chairman of Microsoft Corp.

"What the PC did for computing, Eclipse can do for mass-market travel," said Esther Dyson, a technology analyst for EDVenture Holdings."

airtaximan said...

nice snippet, Shane.

I cannot imagine Al Mann took RiP at his word... and did not look to specific assets to back a "garantee"...

trusting guy, I guess.

Regarding RiP's claim he'll go BK - if he's saying it, it must be bogus.

bill e. goat said...

Hi EPx,
I'm all in a dither about the battery master switches- if the FADEC's were in the nacelles, they typically have generator power available, and I suppose would go to flight idle (much like Wedge's brain).

Being mounted in the glove box, or wherever they are now, I'm not sure.

A massive black hole is created?

(I think Al Mann would concur with that last one).

Dave said...

True, regrettably, but still, I concur with H.M.E.'s sentiment

I agree with it too. I think there can be a lot of personal satisfaction, just I don't think there will be much in the way of financial satisfaction.

airtaximan said...

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/
flights/2009-03-03-eclipse-
jet-legacy_N.htm

more on the $775,000 price

'nuff said

airtaximan said...

I can imagine a lot of retribution... not enough, but in this case, pay back might be a bitch.

I sincerely believe we will all be amazed at the testimony... given peoples distain for VR... I can imagine him getting roasted by the truth.

bill e. goat said...

Hi ATM,
"nice snippet, Shane."
Right-o!

"I cannot imagine Al Mann took RiP at his word... and did not look to specific assets to back a "garantee"...trusting guy, I guess."
Right-o! I'm afraid that if Al got taken on this one, it's his own doing.

I AM curious how "fireproof" Wedge is in regards to Al though- that seems to be who was at the rudder when most of the "damage" was done.

Maybe the relative recovery prospects, from an asset point of view, dictate otherwise. (It WOULD be rather poetic justice if Al wound up with Wedge's FPJ though...)

"Regarding RiP's claim he'll go BK - if he's saying it, it must be bogus."

Regarind RiP, I have to confess, I have always considered him to be a rational actor. Maybe an actor, but rational, and even predictable. (Certainly, the same has never been said of Wedge).

I would suspect RiP is reasonably correct in his protestations here. I don't think RiP profited from any misrepresentations, so I hold him, while perhaps not blameless, I would say from a practical (recovery) standpoint, unaccountable.

Dave said...

I cannot imagine Al Mann took RiP at his word... and did not look to specific assets to back a "garantee"...

I don't know that Roel has anything in the US in which could be taken from him. If an asset isn't in the US, I think it would be difficult to get Roel to hand it over.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Dave,
I've wondered the same thing- funny how the Eclipse saga might see more "regulatory" action in European courts than it did with EASA!

airtaximan said...

from the cited USAtoday article above:

PRICELESS

"Raburn said aviation industry suppliers prevented Eclipse from producing aircraft as quickly as it would have liked.

"One of the big mistakes that I made was assuming that the aerospace supply chain could function in the way that all other supply chains in the world can function," Raburn said. "It's fraught with fraud and dishonesty. It has massive inefficiencies."

But Doug Royce, an aerospace analyst for Connecticut-based Forecast International Inc., which had forecast last fall that Eclipse's production would end this year, said other aviation companies have been successful with those same suppliers.

"Other companies manage to deal with the suppliers he's dealing with and make it to production," Royce said.

Royce said he thinks Eclipse suffered from being overly ambitious in promoting a new way of building an airplane, which attracted a lot of nay-sayers who focused their criticism on Raburn.

"The promises for what he could deliver didn't match reality," Royce said."

Imagine Vern saying: "
"It's fraught with fraud and dishonesty. It has massive inefficiencies."

Ya think Vern defrauded anyone or was dishonest...C'mon this sort of BS has been hi MO since day-one.

H.M.E said...

baron95 said: "...All they had to show is that they were working on additional source of funds/financing, which they were, to show that there was a reasonable basis to believe they could build the planes..."

They would have to convinve the court that they had a reasonable chance of obtaining the necessary funding which they would not be able to do in the first place.

Without the funds they would not be able to deliver even if the company had the know how.


This is my understanding:
1) summer 2007, Wedge obtained 200 million from an investor after agreeing to devalue the company. The investment was at the 11th hour. EAC was at the verge of bankrupsy, yet the original investors did not step in to raise their investment. Wedge stated publicly that this would be the last investment needed.

2) November 2007: In an act of desperation, Wedge went cap in hand to the customers to raise 30 million before 15 December sacrificing vital furture revenue. Investors have already thrown the towel.

3) At the same time EAC was negociating with ETIRC to sell them about 45% of the company for ~ 100 million dollars. The agreement was signed on the 15th of December after sucessfully collecting the 30 million from the customers.

4) December 28: After paying a certain key supplier, EAC was out of funds again. Had to obtain a 90 days bridge loan but had nothing to offer as collateral except ALL EAC intellectual property.

5) March 14 2008: Regulatory waiver obtained. ETIRC transfers the ~100 million funds. EAC IP was brought back from the abyss.

6) June 2008: After collecting the 40% final payments for delivered A/c and collecting 60% progress payments from nearly 200 customers, the company had run again out of funds and stopped paying it's key suppliers.

7) August 2008: RP and AM inject additional 50 million taking control of the company (68%).

7) During the latest attempt to obtain financing (UBS) RP clearly stated that the company stands to loose about 500 million dollars over the next two years before turning to profitability based on the new $2.15 miilion price and 500 A/C per year (never achieved)

So what is the probability that EAC BOD would manage to supply evidence to the court that shows that in November 2007 (tight capital market), with the company already oweing $600 million (my estimate) and a cash flow forcast of nearly 1 billion in the red that they had any reasonable chance of obtaining new financing that would cover the deficit generated by their existing obligations let alone enter into hundreds of new loosing cotracts?

What kind of balance sheet, income statement and past evidence of performance can they produce to back their claims up?


In simple terms: If I have an annual income of 30K per year and annual obligations of 60K per year (cash flow is in the negative) and already have 100K in credit card debt, what are my chances of qualifying of a $2 million home morgage in December 2007 if I don't have considerable free assets to use as collateral?

Answer: no chance.

But I can show you 50 applications that I have submitted. I am working on obtaining the funds/financing...

Serious?

I understand that sometimes people may like to post for amusement. Please excuse me if I fail to see any amusement in this disgusting situation.

airtaximan said...

PS..

as if all supply chains function the same...

what an ASS

airtaximan said...

HME,

OK, you got my attention - how do you know all this?

I am not asking who you are... but, man...

the financial synopsys since 2007 is pretty detailed - did you compile this from news?

You can just say: I have inside info, I work for Al MAnn, I work for UBS... I am Roel...

Seriosuly, how do you know all this?

Thanks for the post

bill e. goat said...

ATM,
Quoth the Wedge
"It's fraught with fraud and dishonesty. It has massive inefficiencies."

!!!!!

I guess I really CAN say

FRAUD

FRAUD

FRAUD

FRAUD

FRAUD

FRAUD

After all.

RAD3 said...

Fascinating stuff coming out of the Mann lawsuit.

Now for something a little off topic. I believe someone mentioned Epic as maybe having some problems and maybe they are but they have finally up-dated their "news" page and have seven owners who have recently recieved CofAs on LT's(some nice photos...damn I like the looks of those planes). I wonder if Gunner/Rich's group is one of them? Gunner...if you're still reading the Blog...send up a flare!

http://www.epicaircraft.com/news.html

Ray

bill e. goat said...

H.M.E.,
Thanks for the running events log.

ATM,
I think most of that was chonicalled on the blog, in varying degrees of detail- HME fills out the picture nicely.

I reckon with $600M in debt, we see why the went BK.

And with a forecast loss of $500M per year, why nobody is buying them.
-----------------------------------

"Seriously, how do you know all this?"

I believe all material posted here is intelligent speculation based on limited observations of public events.

Dave said...

So what is the probability that EAC BOD would manage to supply evidence to the court that shows that in November 2007 (tight capital market), with the company already oweing $600 million (my estimate) and a cash flow forcast of nearly 1 billion in the red that they had any reasonable chance of obtaining new financing that would cover the deficit generated by their existing obligations let alone enter into hundreds of new loosing cotracts?

What kind of balance sheet, income statement and past evidence of performance can they produce to back their claims up?


I can tell you what they can provide - the Eclipse-related minutes from the NM SIC meetings. They can show that Vern told them that Eclipse was on the way to profitability once production ramped up to 500-1000+ units per year. I believe that Vern was fraudulent in that regard (and as such Vern has substantial personal liability), but that doesn't mean that the board as a whole is liable for that. The high production rate combined with the low price was Eclipse's business model afterall. Vern continued to make excuses and blame others and the board can show that such issues as the finances were discussed at the board level and Vern showed them how Eclipse was on a path to breaking even. Vern of course could have been lying through his teeth, but the board isn't personally liable for Vern perpetrating a fraud on the board.

WhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

RAD, I understand Gunner's plane is making progress and is essentially on schedule - if he cares to provide more detail I am sure we will hear from him here.

I saw it back in October when it came out of paint - very nice with a minimum of touch-up.

The LT is a beautiful plane, extremely capable, very nice to fly, and simply provides the most bang for the buck in terms of any available aircraft today IMO, certified or experimental.

The Epic team is extraordinarily resourceful and they do a lot with a (relatively) small team - I am very impressed with them.

airtaximan said...

bill-e,

sometimes one just smells reality when its in front of them... and HME seems like the real deal.

I have not seen anyone post a synopsis of the financing of EAC like he/she did.. so I ask... are you in the know?

If not, I am impressed... if its accurate.

WhyTech said...

"Vern of course could have been lying through his teeth, but the board isn't personally liable for Vern perpetrating a fraud on the board."

You are letting these guys off the hook to soon. Directors have a responsibility that extends beyond rubber stamping the CEO's assertions. Especially directors as experienced in business and the board room as the "big three" at EAC. I could see it differently if Vern or others were cooking the numbers, but we are talking about matters of management judgment, where the Board had more relevant experience than Vern. After all the missed milestones over so many years, you would expect the Board to have little faith in anything Vern told them, and to be on high alert.

airtaximan said...

whytech,

I would imagine the truth will come out - WHEN everyone gets sued.

Once you put lawyers in the mix, all rational business ceases, and they look to blame anyone who can pay.

So, I expect Brian Berents to show up in some action, and be a critic of Vern and anyone else who insulates him from responsibility.

We'll see - and that's the GOOD news!

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