Thursday, April 2, 2009

Current affairs, future outcomes?

It's been a month since Eclipse Aviation Corporation joined the ranks of 'ex companies' in Chapter 7 bankruptcy. At that time it was anticipated (mostly by owners of the aircraft) that there would be a queue of willing, cash rich bidders, who would make quick and decisive offers, allowing all their problems to vanish, post haste.

Oh, how the scales have fallen from their eyes. Instead of a rapid sale and the normal 'business as usual' messages, all they are hearing from the various groups that form, dissolve and reform is waffle. What must be really disturbing for the senior note holders (who do, after all, own the assets) is the quixotic nature of some of these bidders. So far, not one 'real' company has stood up and said they WANT to buy the assets, with REAL money.

A few 'straws in the wind' for your consideration:-

1. Controller lists over 30 Cessna Mustang aircraft (or positions) all of them in or about the published 'asking' price. 27 Embraer Phenom 100 positions are on offer, several of which use the word 'sacrifice' in their offer and yet the FPJ manages only 11 ads, ALL of which are for existing aircraft and NONE even approaching the last 'list' price of $2.15 million. An earlier 'snippet' which noted several FPJ's changing hands in the $600k range has since been reinforced by reports of similar exchanges. This tells me the market for FPJ's has tanked.

2. The 28 DayJet aircraft (which most people seem to have forgotten) are about to hit the market as the finance company which owns them seeks some recovery. Word is that these aircraft are valued well below a million dollars each, and will be sold promptly. This is bad news for anyone thinking of 'restarting' production, since the DayJet birds represented a potential source of revenue, as well as providing potential customers with a cheaper alternative.

3. Once they were 'free' of EAC, numbers of people have contacted me with interesting historical details. It seems the real cost of building the FPJ never dropped below $2.3 million dollars, even during the 'volume' days last summer. Current best estimates are that the bird will cost something like $2.5 million to build in low (1 per week) numbers, possibly dropping a little if the rate rises. The killer appears to have been the totally unrealistic number of build hours being spent on each one. Consensus is about 4,000 hours per aircraft, without fixing squawks. No matter which way you try to do this, you need to sell FPJ's at something north of $2.5 million to make a profit, and closer to $3 million to offer an ROI to the moneymen. I submit that this will be very hard work, even for ex Chairman/CEO of EAC, Roel Pieper, who's joined in Mike Press's mini owners group.

4. Current press coverage of the 'revival efforts' are overwhelmingly negative, even from former supporters, some of whom ended up as (unpaid) creditors. Most find it hard to make the numbers add up or feel the much hyped market for the VLJ's has now evaporated. This has to influence prospective investors, who are also readers our discussion. One thing is clear. The fantasy of volume production and sale of a 'cheap' twin engine jet is truly a busted flush.

5. The only 'good news' concerns the 19 'caretakers' employed in ABQ, who are still getting paid.

To conclude, it appears to me that some people (especially FPJ owners) are still not getting the message. I'm reliably informed that the note holders will sell, by whatever means, very soon. It could even get to an auction on the steps of the Courthouse. I hope that's not the final outcome, but whatever happens I'm very reluctant to promote the idea that FPJ 'production' can restart in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Whatever chance there is of this it will have to be at a) a much reduced labour cost and b) without the endless cycle of trying to fit together parts that simply don't.

Spring has arrive here in our Emerald Isle. My thoughts naturally turn to exploring the many secret places dotted around, especially those where one can retire of an evening to a convivial local pub for a pint (or three...) of our very own Guinness. Remember that you can always contact me on the blog email, eclipsecriticng@gmail.com, with any view, opinions or information relevant to our discussions.

Shane

342 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 342 of 342
Dave said...

You are letting these guys off the hook to soon. Directors have a responsibility that extends beyond rubber stamping the CEO's assertions.

I'm talking about liability that can be proven in court. There's a very high threshold to establish personal liability for a director of a Delaware corporation. I think as a legal defense the SIC minutes as well as saying they were conned, made mistakes, etc would be sufficient. I by no means think that the NM SIC did their jobs, but I think in a court of law that would make a strong defense by saying NM's fiduciaries saw things the same way as they did and because of that the corporate veil can't be pierced. I have no respect for Governor Richardson, but in court saying that a governor who was acting as a fiduciary acted the same as they did would be a difficult defense to overcome. Courts and reality don't always converge. I do also believe that the board can show that they did more than rubber stamp in that the saw that action was taken on the production line (like I believe the VP of Manufacturing who came from Ford was related to active board engagement even though that was a terrible hire) and that the board verified how Vern was working on getting new rounds of funding, etc. I'm not remotely excusing the members of the board as having done alright, just I see it as extremely challenging to get a personal legal judgment against the board members who would have the greatest ability to pay. Like with the Mann v Roel lawsuit, I think Mann wont ever see the full $10M even if he wins the judgment. Roel is an individual board member who I see as potentially having very high personal liability, but I don't see all the other board members as being in the Favonious with him.

Dave said...

Once you put lawyers in the mix, all rational business ceases

When has Eclipse ever been a rational business?

WhyTech said...

"I by no means think that the NM SIC did their jobs, but I think in a court of law that would make a strong defense by saying NM's fiduciaries saw things the same way as they did "

The NM SIC and similar bodies elsewhere are not exactly highly regarded for their investment acumen, and I doubt they had the relevant management experience and same access to the Co. and management as the directors, who were, figuratively if not literally, on the scene. But, the law works in sometimes unfathomable ways, so I guess we'll just have to see what develops.

Anonymous said...

Dave said: "...I can tell you what they can provide - the Eclipse-related minutes from the NM SIC meetings..."

I agree in principal and I understand that this is an LLC. The SIC being a minority investor has no knowledge of what was going on behind closed doors. Representations were made to the SIC by their own investment consultant.

But a BOD is a different matter. They do have access to confidential information including financial statements. They vote and authorise every loan / bond. They know the production rate and cost data....

Agree with you that some of the VPs may not be resonsible. Cannot blame IT or HR for example.

But there can be no doubt that in November 2007, the main investors and the BOD knew that the game was up. No fancy representation or massaged data that showed a way forward.

In the end, they could have pulled the plug and called it a day but they elected not to do so and approved the ETIRC deal towards the end of the year instead.

The BOD have a fuduciary duty to look after the share holders interest. They are there to provide stearing guidance to the top management / CEO with the aim of maximizing profitability within the limits of the law. If the company top management becomes a liability the BOD have to recommend a change to the shareholders if they cared about their interest.

With that said, now that the company is going into chapter 7, it will be very difficult to obtian records of MOM, old financial info, etc... I think that there is no legal requirement to pass this info to the winning bid. So time may be running out.

As to a CEO's personal responsibility, let us say that in the unlikely event that such person had made inaccurate representations to potential investors or financial institution they may have a recourse now that the picture is clear. Whether they elect to act or not would depend on whether there is any potential recovery beyond legal fees. I think probably not.

You definitly have a point with regards to the difficulty the DA would have. But maybe in a civil suite with sympathetic jury, things may be a bit different. Reading your post, I really do not know if it is worth a try or will it be a waste of customers / suppliers time.


airtaximan said: "I am not asking who you are..."

:)

And you are most welcome.

Anonymous said...

""...There's a very high threshold to establish personal liability for a director of a Delaware corporation..."

And this is another point that makes it very difficult indeed.

Dave said...

The Business Judgment Rule is why I'm seeing it as very difficult to bring a successful case against Eclipse's board in general, but not Roel in particular. I think it is very easy to overcome the business judgment rule with Roel because it is easy to prove there was self-dealing/self-interest in what he did, but without being able to show the self-dealing/self-interest by the other board members, there is a very high burden to overcome. I expect this burden can be overcome with certain directors and officers, just not with the those who have the greatest amount of personal assets. Like I think it would be highly unlikely that there would be a judgment against Kent Kresa...the guy who got promoted on GM's board after his role in Eclipse's BK. As a pratical matter think of the gravitas that Kent Kresa will have with his resume showing his board promotion at GM post-Eclipse. Kresa might have a lot of money, but I don't think anyone is going to touch it because of Kresa's board performance at Eclipse.

BricklinNG said...

Do you want the soy sauce with that?

bill e. goat said...

ATM,
"I have not seen anyone post a synopsis of the financing of EAC like he/she did.. so I ask... are you in the know?"

Heck no- I'm an idiot. And rather happy at it! (In fact, I'm practicing for my Senior Idiot exam- I expect to succeed in failing it).

"If not, I am impressed (by H.M.E.'s intelligent speculation based on limited observations of public events)... if its accurate.

ATM, I agree with you completely (as usual) !!!
It sounds like a VERY intelligent interpretation of events.

(My only point is, poorly made, if I had one- as RR said: sometimes I forget :), like tracking Ken's airplane, I think there is a degree of privacy which should be extended to our fellow bloggers, such as our new pal H.M.E.).
-----------------------------------

WT,
"Directors have a responsibility that extends beyond rubber stamping the CEO's assertions. Especially directors as experienced in business and the board room as the "big three" at EAC"

I think so too- after all, they were presumably selected "for their expertise".
-----------------------------------

Dave,
"but I think in a court of law that would make a strong defense by saying NM's fiduciaries saw things the same way as they did and because of that the corporate veil can't be pierced. I have no respect for Governor Richardson, but in court saying that a governor who was acting as a fiduciary acted the same as they did would be a difficult defense to overcome."

Well, I agree- I think the NM state board was bamboozled, but to their credit, they probably are not assaulted with this degree of flim-flam artistry very often. And they might be smarting over Billy Gates going to WA state, and probably were unduly influenced by the "another Microsoft" argument. The only thing true about that is Wedge's brain- very Micro, and very soft.

"The guy (Kent Kresa) who got promoted on GM's board after his role in Eclipse's BK."

Good point. Seems like with his track record of disaster, he ought to consider entering politics.

Unknown said...

How does this affect the CH7 valuation?

WhyTech said...

"Heck no- I'm an idiot. And rather happy at it!"

Billy,

You are one squared away goat!

Unknown said...

I have no clue what you mean. Anyway this blog is different from others.

Maybe Gadfly can elaborate on this:

http://www.hampson-machining.co.uk/files/File/Hampson-India-Press-Release.pdf

EAC was sending machine work from N.M. to India. Hampson and EAC were the same company at this point.

The reason I mention you Gadfly is because of the RonRoe ID of your machine shop. The prices of the India stuff was amazingly high and It usually didn't work. Meaning useless in an aviation environment. I'm sure you could have done better.

Unknown said...

Here is another strange one:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_31/b4044416.htm?chan=innovation_innovation+%2B+design_top+stories

Unknown said...

Here is another:

http://www.hampsongroup.com/files/File/IMS%201%202007-08.htm

Unknown said...

And stranger yet:

http://www.accord-soft.com/pdfs/nexnav%20chosen%20by%20eclipse%20aviation.pdf

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Kathy, don't get confused by anything in this saga not making sense - that seems to be about the only constant, well that and questionable decision making.

bill e. goat said...

WT,
Thanks- I like to focus on my "Core Strengths"
.)

bill e. goat said...

Hi Kathy,
Thanks for your links- I've gone through them- interesting reading!

"EAC was sending machine work from N.M. to India. Hampson and EAC were the same company at this point." I'm not sure if this is a figurative observation- but EAC and Hampson were never the same company. Perhaps Hampson had people on site, as most vendors do, which created that impression. There have been reports that the Hampson product was substandard, but others contend it was due to the poor quality tooling supplied by EAC- so I'm not sure about all that. Hampson DID sue Eclipse, for past due payments, about one year before BK. In response, The Wedge said, well who cares- his lips were moving so he was lying.

From the article, Hampson is building automotive turbochargers in India.
Note that Hampson has 1600 employees, 1200 in the UK, and 400 in the USA and India- there was a Hampson factory near Dallas, TX to build the Eclipse empennage- I don't think any Eclipse structural work was sent to India.

Hampson
-----------------------------------

Thanks for the article about the Ideo design firm making cockpit layout suggestions. Not necessarily a bad thing, but, things are usually the way they are, for a reason- seems like Wedgie would have simply hired someone from Cessna with Citation experience.
"Eclipse made the unusual move of hiring a firm from outside the aerospace industry—the innovation consultancy Ideo. "This strategy enabled new design concepts that would not have been considered without a fresh perspective from an outside firm," says Mike McConnell, Eclipse vice-president for marketing and sales."
------------------------------------

This Hampson Interem Management Statement seems to have been issued at the end of 2007Q2, sort of like a quarterly report in the USA. Sounds like they are adjusting to the ramp-up delay that Eclipse announced earlier in 2007, I forget, "only 600" for 2007, or some crazy such).

"Production of the Eclipse 500 Very Light Jet is starting to increase progressively although it is likely that deliveries of aircraft to customers by Eclipse Aviation in 2007/08 will be lower than previous guidance. The Group has in place processes to mitigate the financial consequences of any such shortfall. The Eclipse order book remains strong and is reported at just under 2,700 aircraft, including orders and options."
-----------------------------------

The link about the GPS receiver is interesting, Specrtralux seems to be a shoestring shop in DC area (makes portions of control panels), using an India software house, to develop a WAAS receiver. Odd- there are a lot of press releases in 2007, and only one in 2008, none in 2009- sounds like vapor ware to me. To get am idea of there activity level, a check of the employment tab shows "CURRENTLY NO OPEN POSITIONS". One of the 2007 press releases says "selected for the L3 Smartdeck", but a search of the L3 website for Spectralux and NexNav comes up blank.

Eclipse supplier list

L3 Smartdeck, Flying Magazine
(Interesting last paragraph: "L-3 traces its roots all the way back to Bill Lear who founded the company in the early 1960s to build gyros, instruments and autopilots for his Lear Jet and other airplanes. The company was later purchased by BFGoodrich, and in 2003 was acquired by L-3, a large aerospace conglomerate."
Guess Billy Lear was playing with avionics and twin jets, as well as our dear Wedge. Lear Astronics, I think- man, does it get convoluted over the years, maybe now:
Marconi Astronics

Lear AStronics
Seigler
BAE
BFGoodrich
Marconi
L3
blah blah blah- anyone know the timeline?

WhyTech said...

"The link about the GPS receiver is interesting, Specrtralux seems to be a shoestring shop in DC "

Spectralux/NexNav were reportedly supplying Chelton with a Beta 3 capable GPS WAAS receiver for use in the Chelton Flight Logic EFIS/FMS (and repacing the previously used FreeFlight receiver). AFAIK, this is happening (currently mentioned on Chelton website).

bill e. goat said...

WT,
"50-100 employees, $1-10M business."
Spectralux
(Make that Seattle, WA suburb, rather than DC suburb- Redmond, not Richmond).

Spectralux is an established minor supplier- I am aware of the name from their work with lighting panels, which I suspect is the more profitable product line.

One press release (with 9 words in the body) in over 17 months makes them sound pretty lame. (The Chelton gig is mentioned in their March 01, 2007 PR.)

Maybe I'm just jaded by the PR handiwork of Wedge during EAC's prime
:)

bill e. goat said...

Chelton is pretty energetic in the PR department, with 14 PR's during this same 17 month period.

Interestingly, one of them is from Nov 26, 2007:

"Boise, ID - Cobham plc, parent company of Chelton Flight Systems, is pleased to announce that it has reached agreement to purchase S-TEC Corporation from Meggitt plc for a cash consideration of US$38m on a debt and cash-free basis payable on completion. The purchase is anticipated to complete before the year end, subject to regulatory approval.

(But, like Spectralux, "Currently We have no Job Openings").

My, how things do change (mergers and acquisitions):
Chelton Flight Systems
Cobham History

julius said...

H.E.M,

And this is another point that makes it very difficult indeed.


The main problem is that most investors are not interested to show that they made a wrong investment and did not control the usage of their money.

Even Col. M. Press who declared himself as an investor in EAC lost the overview inspite all his contacts. If he could tug RiP/wedge into a court room - which financial or business advantage could he expect?

AL Man just learnt that RiP is reluctant to invest his own money (if has some own money). He prefer to declare himself BK (nice for Col. P!). So his relationship is a case in NY...

Julius

TBMs_R_Us said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

WT busted me (Rats-again!)- this time on my "vaporware" proposition regarding the Spectralux GPS-WAAS receiver.

I think in the fairly recent past, as it was issued from Mineral Wells, TX (where their HQ moved to in 2008), Chelton issued this Press Release (which I've condensed):

"Based on this STC amendment, pilots considering or currently using ...(the) Chelton FlightLogic Synthetic Vision Electronic Flight Instrument System (EFIS-SV) configurations are now approved to install the following upgrades:

* Chelton Software Version 6.0B
* Chelton Beta III GPS-WAAS
* Chelton Remote Bugs Panel (RBP)
* Spectralux NexNav GPS

"Pilots flying aircraft covered by the amended STC will realize numerous benefits, including:

* Chelton’s software version 6.0B delivers over 40 end-user upgrades from version 5.0C, such as WSI weather support or ADS-B Data Link, the ability to create a holding pattern at any fix or waypoint, and vertical deviation indicator for RNAV profiles and approaches.

* Chelton’s lightweight GPS-WAAS Beta III system will meet the requirements for a primary navigation receiver for en route and approach guidance.

* Chelton’s Remote Bugs panel features dedicated controls for frequently-used functions including the autopilot, controls for selecting and setting display parameters, and a Night Vision Goggle (NVG) Mode option.

* Spectralux NexNav GPS sensor installation enables advanced Nav features such as vertical navigation (VNAV).
-----------------------------------

That sounds pretty impressive! Rather exciting to see such impressive features. (I think the night vision goggle thing is a bit inconvenient, compared to an airframe mounted enhanced vision camera, but maybe is oriented to the helicopter crowd for police work, or the black helicopter gang, etc.

But my extensive experience watching a cork float on the Ercoupe makes me ill prepared to understand the difference between the two GPS receivers mentioned for the same STC:

a) Chelton Beta III GPS-WAAS
b) Spectralux/Accord NexNav

Any body want to help me "uncork" this mystery?
Thanks!

WhyTech said...

"Any body want to help me "uncork" this mystery?"

I'm not an authority on the subject, however, based on a conversation with Chelton personnel at the HAI show in Feb, and other sources, the Chelton Beta 3 Receiver is a specific packaging by Chelton of the Spectralux receiver, which Spectralux offer as an "unpackaged" printed circuit board to avoinics OEM's.

michal said...

I could bet my mortgage that nothing will come out after attempts to go after former Eclipse board members. You would have to have some smoking gun that would prove that fraud was involved. No district attorney would take this case and in civil courts - no lawyer (IMHO) is going to take this case on the contingency basis.

Dave said...

I could bet my mortgage that nothing will come out after attempts to go after former Eclipse board members. You would have to have some smoking gun that would prove that fraud was involved. No district attorney would take this case and in civil courts - no lawyer (IMHO) is going to take this case on the contingency basis.

I agree with you in general, but I do see Roel in particular facing potential problems both civilly and criminally given his unique position. Civilly I don't think much would happen unless there was also evidence of something criminal, in which case Roel could be extradited to the US. If there's no criminal extradition, I see little chance for any civil suit to result in any kind of substaintial collection - even if a large verdict is rendered against Roel. I do think Roel has engaged in criminal activities, but as far as how the rubber would meet the road it is a matter of "what do we know, what do we think is known and what can we prove" - with the proof being the hard part. I expect the BK process has presented a wonderful opportunity for all sorts of incriminating evidence to become "lost." My hope is that this will damage people's business reputations as I don't see much happening in civil or criminal court...but things could change (Mann providing evidence against Roel, Roel providing evidence against Vern, etc). The Mann lawsuit shows that there are still some major wildcards out there and there are potentially hundreds of ex-employees out there who could have incriminating evidence against execs and/or board members.

gadfly said...

A note to "Kathy":

The "gadfly" will get back. This thing about manufacturing excellent aircraft parts is not a simple thing of simply putting together some clever computer CAD/CAM programs with some "whiz kids" fresh out of college . . . here or India or China or right out of MIT. It has to do with "art forms", and native ability, and just plain old hard work as an aprentice, etc.

So, let's explore some of these things . . . the simple quick solutions do not apply, especially in the design and manufacture of excellent aircraft.

Since the mock clucked stridnight a mew finits ago . . . and Prinderella just slopped her dripper on the Stalace Peps . . . the merry fodgother has pulled up in her pumpkin . . . you get the picture! We'll deal with this tomorrow.

gadfly

fred said...

Dave :

Roel could be extradited to the US

Do not even dream about it !
that kind of thing will never happen ...

this is one of the reason WHY Roel might have moved to France ...
in our constitution (like in many others in the today world) Extradition of citizens is IMPOSSIBLE against the citizen wish (whatever has been done , they are NEVER sent away , trialled and in prison in the country at the most ...)
for foreigners = if they are claimed by their own country , if the said country doesn't use death penalty and have some standards rules of justice = extradition is possible ...
in the case of a foreigner sought by a third party country (RiP being dutch , it would apply very well since he hasn't got a US passport) at the best and after quite lengthy proceedings , he may be sent back to his own country ... where the same limitation about constitution applies ...

so all in all , the proceedings would take so long that most parties would be dead before getting a kopeck !

i see this as a pride-thing or a way to put some distances between parties ...

the huge fiasco that is EAC may push "some" to seek culprits and aim their "REAL"cash ...

Vern is Broke ...
Roel is "probably" broke , and if not = he has shown in the past a master-knowledge on how to dodge bullets ...
just the multi-national sort of any court-case is a very good sign of it ...!

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

Hi WT,
Thanks for the info on the Spectralux deal with Chelton.

Wow- you get around!

(I found this on the net concerning next year's Helicopter Association International show, to be held in Houston, Tx in Feb 2010; sounds like fun!).

bill e. goat said...

Michal, Dave, Fred,

I'm sure you guys caught H.M.E.'s note about "potential" civil action

"...We are currently investigating potential claims against the officers and directors of Eclipse Aviation, Inc. for grossly mismanaging the company and for taking down payments on aircraft that the company had no reasonable possibility of delivering and using these deposits to fund past debts rather than to build the aircraft on which the down payment was made...."

By the firm Stueve-Siegel-Hanson

It is notable some of their specialties are:

Breach of Contract/Warranty
Fraud
Breach of Fiduciary Duty
Securities Litigation
Consumer Fraud

-and-
Racketeering (?? :)
Burn Injuries
(Wonder if anyone was injured stoking the incinerators? "Franklin Inhalation" poisoning?)

I suspect they are mostly fishing to see what's available, and then will harrass until an out-of-court settlement is reached to "make them go away".

I do hope our favorite Wedge is included in that fun.
-----------------------------------

Odd, Al Mann isn't going after Wedge. Maybe Wedge was slippery enough to have some "protection" written into his going away clause, anticipating these developing events.

It makes you wonder why customers didn't file class action suit to liquidate Eclipse a year+ ago. I think it does illustrate how a Ponzi scheme works- the records are hidden, the results are "too good to be true", and people are eager (or greedy) enough to go willingly to along with it. "The Ponze" produces just enough product/profit to keep suckers "on the line", but everyone really knows it's unsustainable- but go along hoping it doesn't collapse until after they cash out.

It REALLY does make one consider the dangers of dealing with a privately held company, with closed books.

bill e. goat said...

Make that a privately held company, with no track record.

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
I think American society might be better served if we leave RP to his own devices in Europe- sorry- good luck with him!
:)

fred said...

billy ...

thanks for your wishes , if it would be up to me :

i would have him be wrapped in gift-paper and sent to JFK ...!
;-)

or simpler , shot in the backyard , but then others would call me barbarous !!! ;-)

i am not really happy about constitution and laws being abused by such lousy son of their mothers ...it is always the same story 99,99% would respect it , the rest would use it to claim benefits they shouldn't even think about ...!!

fred said...

Odd, Al Mann isn't going after Wedge. Maybe Wedge was slippery enough to have some "protection" written into his going away clause, anticipating these developing events.

either Wedge had a "quitus" when leaving or this was part of the smoke-and-mirrors ...

smoke-and-mirrors that would have had EAC go BK in USA , for the merry-band to continue production in Russia without any of the past (especially the financial one )

to me as well it is odd : Mann is going after the worst possible scenario ...
(RiP being a foreigner from a country A , acting as CEO of a firm from country B , living in a country C , being sued in a country D , etc...each of those having more or less conflicting legislations with one an other ...)

Dave said...

I'm sure you guys caught H.M.E.'s note about "potential" civil action

That's what got the whole conversation going. I don't see there as much of a chance to collect. Those who are most liable don't have much money while those with the most money, it would be most difficult to win against them (such as winning a case against Kresa). I think for instance huge judgments could be gotten against Vern and Roel, but Vern doesn't have much money relative to the size of judgment that could go against him and Roel is a foreigner in a foreign land.

fred said...

but Wedge's furnace alone would be a very good reason why Helicopter-Ben was and is printing "Franklins" 24/24-7/7 like a mad ...

this kind of furnace is weird : the more you put in it , the more it need ...

just a shame customers didn't notice before ....

bill e. goat said...

Dave,
I agree- do think there is any satisfaction to be had (enough to break even on legal fees with an out-of-court settlement) by "squeezing" the domestic culprits?

I agree, RiP is probably too out of reach, and the fact Al M. is "squeezing" him is probably just satisfaction in "doing something", even if it is ultimately unsuccessful- I reckon Al can afford to "squeeze" him just for the pleasure of running up RiP's legal bills.

A tactic much employeed by Wedge. I hope he is given some "attention" too.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

I'm no lawyer (so this is likely a dumb question) but wasn't it a bad idea of AL Mann's to sign that promissory note with Rip as having a Jurisdication of NY? ( Apart from it being a dumb idea to give RiP $10M - but that is another story)

Would it not have been a better idea to have had the Jurisdiction as Holland? That is where the Rip has his assets isn't it?

fred said...

freedom ...

as far as i know RiP is having his "supposed to be" assets in Luxembourg ...

if it would be Holland , it would be quite easy to track down ...

if using some dark-spot ( sorry , now they are called grey) the task become a lot more problematic ...!!

so you're right in the part about Holland , but RiP is not a bird of the day ...!!

bill e. goat said...

Hi Fred,
"Just a shame customers didn't notice before ...."

I think some of them did- but subscribed to the "greater fool" theory, and hoped everyone else hadn't noticed yet.

I really can't think of a bigger scam in General Aviation.

fred said...

Billy :
(to give a light view on this mess !)

if you are wondering where the money is gone :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WhN6nlwAts

are man enough to handle it till the end ? ;-))

TBMs_R_Us said...

Yesterday I heard some very odd exchanges between an Eclipse pilot and a large city approach controller. Out of courtesy, I've omitted the details that would identify the aircraft/pilot in question. It started when the Eclipse popped up on frequency announcing they had just departed a local airport and wanted to do some "practice RNAV" approaches. That's odd, because the Eclipse in question does not have RNAV capability (files /W), but these would be VFR practice approaches, so weird, but ok. Does make you wonder why the guy would want to practice something he can't legally do.

The controller gave them a squawk code and the local altimeter setting, and told him to maintain VFR at or below the floor of the Class Bravo airspace. About 20 seconds later the controller said to the Eclipse, "say altitude", which got a response of "er, standby". Say what??? Next the Eclipse pilot explained that the Eclipse altimeter automatically sets itself and they he was resetting it. Say what???

Next, the approach controller told the Eclipse that before he was assigned his squawk code he had been squawking a discrete code instead of 1200 as he should have been, and that he had violated the Class Bravo airspace. The Eclipse pilot replied that the Eclipse altimeter had automatically set itself to 2992, and that he had reset it and was correcting back to the assigned altitude.

Makes me think that it will be a good day when these contraptions masquerading as aircraft are grounded once and for all.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Pretty funny that Pieper uses an MSN address. Surprised somehow that a guy of his class doesn't us a hotmail address :)

WhyTech said...

"Maybe Wedge was slippery enough to have some "protection" written into his going away clause, anticipating these developing events."

It is not uncommomn when a senior exec departs under presssure for the termination agreement to include "release" language (often mutual) that basically says "I wont come after you if you wont come after me." This is often included as an inducement to go quietly.


"Wow- you get around!"

Not really. As a helicopter owner with a Chelton system installed, this is of particular interest to me. The HAI Heli-Expo show is sort of NBAA and Oshkoh combined for the helicopter world. Most instructive and entertaining!

Re getting a significant dollar award by suing the various EAC bad actors: it may well be that hard dollar rewards are few, but the psychic rewards from engaging a junk yard dog lawyer to harrass these guys have got to be priceless.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

TMM's R Us - That is obviously a lie, and you a damned lier. We all know that EA 500's, have no issues with transponders resetting, no problems with the airdata systems, no problems at all really.

Please post you private home address so I can post you a bar of soap to wash your filthy mouth out :)

Dave said...

I'm no lawyer (so this is likely a dumb question) but wasn't it a bad idea of AL Mann's to sign that promissory note with Rip as having a Jurisdication of NY? ( Apart from it being a dumb idea to give RiP $10M - but that is another story)

Would it not have been a better idea to have had the Jurisdiction as Holland? That is where the Rip has his assets isn't it?


I don't know. There seems a lot wrong with the contract, but it sounds like Mann made the big mistake of trusting Roel. If Mann didn't trust Roel, I think Mann would have done it all completely differently. I would think the best place to do this would be where Roel has the most assets and given Roel's international nature, I don't know where that is. About the only thing that doesn't seem to be crashing down on Roel is his boat, so that should have been a secured asset. I don't think Roel has a $10M home and ETIRC doesn't really seem to be worth much.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Yeah TBM we have a few planes out there now which have a Garmin 400 mod, they can legally fly RNAV approaches so that would explain why that was going on. As far as the altimeter I don't have a clue. That has never happened to me.

WhyTech said...

"but it sounds like Mann made the big mistake of trusting Roel."

Have you read the guarranty agreement? Sure doesnt read like "trust" to me. If there was trust in this case, their might not have been the request for a personal guarrantee.

fred said...

Dave :

etirc is an empty shell ...
nothing to be found in it !!

as for RiP Home = may be at the best a million € (i doubt it )

even a luxury flat facing the sea at Antibes-Juan-les-Pins doesn't cost that much ... (10 M.US$)

Dave said...

Have you read the guarranty agreement? Sure doesnt read like "trust" to me. If there was trust in this case, their might not have been the request for a personal guarrantee.

It seems very poorly done, like Mann just went through the motions. Roel told Mann that he'd personally guarantee it, so Mann just drew up basic paperwork rather than paperwork that reflects Roel's international nature and also has something to secure the loan instead of being unsecured. The personal guarantee seems pretty worthless as far as actually being able to collect on it via cort goes and Mann had to have known that.

TBMs_R_Us said...

we have a few planes out there now which have a Garmin 400 mod, they can legally fly RNAV approaches so that would explain why that was going on

EclipsePilotOMSIV,

Not this one. All of its flights are filed /W (this aircraft is not blocked on FlightAware). If he had the Garmin upgrade, he'd file /L. Maybe he's practicing flying an approach using the 496 for guidance.

TBMs_R_Us said...

EclipsePilotOMSIV,

I take it back! Starting yesterday he filed /L. So he must have just had the mod done in the past couple of weeks. Is that possible??

Maybe he filed an ASRS to cover his ass for yesterday's sloppy flying.

fred said...

dave :

if you want to have a look at RiP home :

in Goggle-earth = 43°34'56.83"N ; 7°7'41.42" E

nothing in area in the price range to make it worth the lawyers expenses ...

so, yes anyone can guarantee anything with a big enough mouth ... ;-(

bill e. goat said...

WT,
"his is often included as an inducement to go quietly"

Regarding Wedge's (disappointingly!) quiet departure, it seems so. He was so noisy the rest of the time, I had rather anticipated a "scene" when he left. After getting duped for years, Mr. Mann must have had some degree of satisfaction in telling him to leave. Perhaps some melancholic remorse as well, although, I rather doubt it. That WOULD have been a rather interesting conversation to have "snippets" from though...

Thanks for the info on your helicopter activities- maybe you got a peek at this nifty contraption from Sikorsky? I think (?) it was unveiled at HAI 2008. It would seem to be an exciting development- pretty cool. I think much more practical than the tilt rotor 609. Although, I'm not so confident that a coaxial rotor is economically viable- I like everything else though. (?Maybe a coaxial rotor is necessary, to have high forward speed?).

Sikorsky X2
(27 August 2008 first flight)
X2 360
(I think it really is STILL pointed in the same direction afterwards:)

fred said...

BTW :

it has been so easy to find the address of Pieper in france , that it TOTALLY discredit the "meaning " of going there ... (to protect his family ...)

so , as usual presented as one reason , but in reality not at all for that reason !!

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
That girl gave me motion sickness just watching!! (I hope there was a good chiropractor on standby!!)

Shadow said...

Maybe Mann is just trying to preempt Roel from getting any of the secured DIP funds when the Chapter 7 sale goes through? The judgment Mann is seeking might be that he gets the first $20M when/if the sale happens, and Roel gets zip.

WhyTech said...

"(?Maybe a coaxial rotor is necessary, to have high forward speed?)."

I think more to deal with "disymmetry of lift" or "retreating blade stall" issues with a single rotor, and to eliminate/reduce the need for anti-torque system ( tail rotor on a conventional single main rotor helicopter). But I am no helocopter aerodynamicist, so my WAG.

Dave said...

Maybe Mann is just trying to preempt Roel from getting any of the secured DIP funds when the Chapter 7 sale goes through? The judgment Mann is seeking might be that he gets the first $20M when/if the sale happens, and Roel gets zip.

That's about the only way Mann is going to see any money related to Roel, however, I don't think he'll see the full amount. What I do think Mann could do is say that the Eclipse assets should be turned over to him because all the DIP financing actually came from him and the assets aren't going to be sold for more than $20M. That might be OK for all involved, though I think Mann would still be overpaying for the assets.

WhyTech said...

"I think more to deal with "disymmetry of lift" or "retreating blade stall" issues "

Yes - these are potentially speed limiting issues.

airtaximan said...

regarding thr DIP money,

Mann was told RiP had Russian money... and for this, he agreed to continue.

Either he was assured he would be paid back by RiP/Russians, or he would be partners.

Its more BS... and more, give me money now, I'll gladly reward you in the future...

only question in my mind is, if RiP was so sure... why didn't he just fund the DiP himself? What convenient excuse did he use, one where a guarantee is better than his own cash?

WhyTech said...

"Mann was told RiP had Russian money... and for this, he agreed to continue."

Mann's behavior in this respect is somewhat puzzling. One would think that wih all his experience and success he would say to RP "Show me the money!" Perhaps time pressure caused him to accept more risk than he might otherwise have done.

fred said...

atm :

you are putting your finger on a sensible spot ...

a start-up = ok ...
a "visionary" product developed by Mr pennyless = ok
need for investors (Investors , not Clients !!) = ok ...

then when the investor (RiP) appears and claim to be Mega-Rich (Etrick was supposed to invest 2 or 3 Billions $ in russia ...)

he is so convinced by the said product that he doesn't put his own money on the line ...
( The 100M$ was a bank-guarantee , probably paid around 5% of face-value and probably on borrowed money ...)

COHERENCE = still the best trick to find out if real or not ...

airtaximan said...

I will surmize, RiP showed Al something... just my imagination at work...

some correspndence..
some assets

something...

Also, the del must have been rish for Mann.. he must have been getting something pretty good.

I just LOVE it when RiP says his investors let HIM down... and that's where Mann should look to the guarantee. This is so bogus.

Otherwise, you points regarding why Mann just put up the money, makes him look like a fool. I do not think he is... so he must have been e-tricked.

bill e. goat said...

WT,
I was thinking more simplistically (as usual! :), about lift being a function of "disc size/loading". With two discs (albeit coaxial located), the discs can be smaller because the load is split between the two of them. With lower load per disc, perhaps you can spin it slower, so there is more margin on the advancing blade tip + forward airspeed, to stay subsonic. This would help avoid retreating blade stall too.

While all that is true, it does nothing to help with asymmetric lift of the advancing-vs-retreating blades, as you note concerning disymmetry of lift. I find that I was expecting high-speed lift to be handled by stubby wings- but- gulp- there aren't any! So the rotors provide 100% of the lift, and disymetry of lift would be quite an issue, which the coaxial counter rotating scheme addresses rather elegantly.

Rats- busted again!
:)
-----------------------------------

(From a complexity issue, maybe it's a wash between single main rotor + tail rotor, versus the coaxial main rotor scheme).

Talk about complexity- this thing has GOT to rival Wedge's initial goals. Count the number of blades, engines, control surfaces, wings- it's...Verntastic !!
Sikorsky X-wing
(I actually saw it once- doing a runway test. Like the Boeing X-35, pictures don't do it "justice"; it was even uglier in real life.)
More Sikorsky S-72/X-wing stuff

I was also thinking about the Boeing small UAV helo, which also has short stubby wings.
Boeing X-50
(This one get's an honorable mention for "most moving parts" too- makes the Sikorsky X2 seem like an increasingly elegant solution).
------------------------------------

Hmmm, "The X-50A is one of two projects funded by DARPA in its "Heliplane" program"

I think the other one was the MUCH hyped Groen Brothers gyrocopter on steroids (and Franklins):
Groen Brothers Hawk 4

Latest stock quote, from Groen- very stable: $0.01
Groen Brothers

Looks like NM state isn't the only "avid supporters" of aviation startups:
Utah to use Hawk 4
(circa 2000 press release, state of utah, where Groen is based, to buy some Hawk 4's- I had trouble getting this link to open too).

I'm sorry to see this, despite the circus-like press releases, it was an amusing story to watch- and I'm sorry for those affected. DARPA funding kept this thing alive- don't know who had deeper pockets and more patience- Al Mann or DARPA- I'd say Al's adventure was more successful from a technology point of view, which, ah, isn't saying too much)
Groen Brothers Aviation Announces Retrenchment
(May 30, 2008- about the same time as EAC started stopping production...)

I think this ought to be in the running for "most moving parts" as well- it builds on the rather elegant twin-rudder concept of the Ercoupe, expanded to three vertical tails with the Constellation, and augmented by the "ruggedly handsome" lines of the C-130 (or butt ugly, LOL).
Super-Duper Malathion Sprayer
(one rudder per engine- makes sense to me! Horizontal engine, that is...)

Smithsonian I-max film
(Features the Groen Brothers Hawk 4)

fred said...

yes E-Tricked ...

Mann was probably not the most stupid , but at his time , RiP was playing "I have Russian PM in the pocket " song ... together with "if you stop now , you loose all previous ..." couplet ...

with the apparency of having lots of dosh at disposal , pressure and the exhausting way of EAC business plan (from deepest abyss of despair to the highest arrogance , up , down , up , down ...)

it has probably been enough to brake the defense any normal person can have ...!

if the whole thing is a scam , then there is at least a crook ...
crooks are always manipulators who induce you in their way of thinking ...

Dave said...

Borat plans on starting a business with ex-Eclipsers. Raymond Barratt was the guy who wrote the report for the blogger lawsuit. Here's what he intends to do:
"I've been CIO for three global companies for the past 20 years," Barratt said. "I've reached the point where I would like to be master of my own destiny." Despite the global recession and the credit drought, Barratt plans to take as many as 30 or 40 of his old Eclipse employees with him into a new company that will provide information technology consulting and services to manufacturers.

WhyTech said...

"While all that is true, it does nothing to help with asymmetric lift of the advancing-vs-retreating blades, as you note concerning disymmetry of lift. "

Dissymmetry of lift is dealt with on many helicopters/gyrocopters via flapping hinges, either real or virtual. Not sure if this is used on a coaxial rotor helicopter, but probably.
Re disk loading, I think you are on the right track re two rotors , but the lower rotor sees the downwash from the upper rotor and this makes the efficiency less than one might expect due to all the distrubed air the lower rotor deals with.

As far as the practicality of dual main rotors, there are at least two in production currently (both have been around for a long time in some form: CH47 Chinook and variants (tandem rotor) and Kaman K-Max (synchrocopter). (homework assignment!) Other coaxial rotor helos have been developed, but AFAIK none have made it into production.

airsafetyman said...

"Barratt plans to take as many as 30 or 40 of his old Eclipse employees with him into a new company that will provide information technology consulting and services to manufacturers."

This is a joke, right? The Vernster, with his cadre of IT superstars, was supposed to forcast the development costs of the Eclipse within a few hundred dollars and the certification date within a day or two. They screwed up by an unimaginable amount and now they want to bring that expertise to others? But wait! Maybe "information technology consulting" is reading the order screen at the local McDonald's. I'm not real sure they could handle that.

airtaximan said...

Boratt's plan is the same as Dayjet Technologies...

Pretty hysterical

- I have on occasion run into ex-eclipsers, now at other aviation companies... Its always no surprise to find out they came from Eclipse - I am not joking... they are a certain breed, from what I have seen... sorta like the customers are a certain breed.

and, no, they are all not "the same"...

Dave said...

This is a joke, right? The Vernster, with his cadre of IT superstars

It's actually worse than that. Eclipse outsourced their IT. If Borat was so good at managing it, Eclipse having someone else do it isn't exactly a vote of confidence.

Baron95 said...

Looks like Textron is in play today - So Cessna may soon be part of Lockheed or Raytheon.

Baron95 said...

TBM said... Makes me think that it will be a good day when these contraptions masquerading as aircraft are grounded once and for all.

Are you sure fault lies with aircraft and not the pilot? It sounds like he had the squawk code and altimeter setting from a previous flight. Had already violated an FAR by departing VFR with an invalid squawk code before even getting in the air, and most likely just lied to ATC.

Anyway TBM, what was the local altimeter setting? Was it substantially different than standard to account for a large variation of altitude to even justify the 300ft or so bust necessary for an ATC call?

WhyTech said...

"Other coaxial rotor helos have been developed, but AFAIK none have made it into production."

Turns out that there have been a number of coaxial rotor helicopters which have reached production status - by Kamov in Russia.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Baron,

I was thinking of asking the same things you just did, but I just wanted to avoid the bullshit from TBM. But they are good points.

TBMs_R_Us said...

Baron,

I think you're right, that it was the pilot, and that blaming his aircraft was just a lame excuse for his carelessness. The altimeter was quite high, high enough for him to bust the altitude by 300 feet. I toured this Tracon once, and one of their pet peeves are VFR guys who climb up close to the floor of the Bravo. They have IFR traffic cleared to that altitude on both departure and arrival, and they don't want to mess with VFR traffic. The Eclipse pilot had no business being within 500 feet of the floor of Bravo absent a clearance (I know the regs don't say that, but they do say that VFR traffic should be at x,500 feet, not y,000 feet). It was fairly comical hearing this on frequency, because those Tracon controllers are pretty professional, and I've never before heard them bust somebody so blatantly. Maybe the controller reads the blog ;-)

Guess the pilot was excited by his new toy, a real GPS.

WhyTech said...

"but they do say that VFR traffic should be at x,500 feet, not y,000 feet)."

This only applies at or above 3000 AGL. Dont mean to start a fight, but its not always possible to be 500 ft below the floor of B or C airspace without introducing other unhappy complications. Seems to me that ATC ought to issue clearances to IFR traffic with a modest buffer above the floor, say 200 ft minimum. I'll check the controllers handbook on this.

TBMs_R_Us said...

Of course, maybe he busted the guy because he knew he was making up an excuse, rather than just owning up to the mistake. We all know what "say altitude" means. "When in trouble, confess on the double," usually works with ATC when you've made a mistake.

Baron95 said...

Unfortunate that the Pilot (if our assumptions are correct) chose to lie.

Best course of action was to immediately correct the altimeter setting/deviation "We are correcting to x,000, having operational difficulties, we'll call when on the ground to explain".

A busy TRACON frequency is never the time to go into lengthy explanations as to why you don't know how to operate your plane - particularly if you are lying.

Everybody can make mistakes, but I have no tolerance for those who choose to lie instead of taking responsibility for their actions.

I mean, doesn't this guy even check his altimeter setting and compares to field elevation before take off? But then again, Comair flight crews don't check their runway headings either. So maybe that is the standard that people operate their planes to these days.

Unfortunate.

TBMs_R_Us said...

WhyTech,

You're right of course. Nevertheless, this guy evidently climbed right to the floor-of-Bravo altitude on takeoff, which coincidentally is the standard initial altitude on an IFR clearance from this airport.

WhyTech said...

"Nevertheless, this guy evidently climbed right to the floor-of-Bravo altitude on takeoff, "

I am tempted to comment that this is what one might expect of an Eclipse pilot, but I know that this is not 100% the case, and besides, it would be politically incorrect, so I wont make such a comment.

Shane Price said...

EAC sale Snippet

Word reaches your humble correspondent that the 'floor price' for the assets seems to be rising, ever so slightly.

Several initial offers in the '$10 million' range have been dismissed out of hand by the note holders.

Now I hear rumblings that something closer to $50 million is (pardon the pun) flying around.

Hmmm...

There could be life in this yet. One of the bidders, Socata (maker of the TBM 850) appears to be only fishing for the customer data. They are, after all, trying to make a business case for a 'twin engined but slightly bigger' TMB.

However, there are at least two other groups out there claiming to have a business plan which MIGHT (sort of) work.

We shall see in due course, as it appears 'we' always manage to.

Shane

airtaximan said...

shane,

wasn't soctata recently sold?

Shane Price said...

ATman,

Yeph, that's part of my 'logic' in being skeptical they are viable bidders.

Another is that the TBM has a fine reputation as a solid and dependable aircraft, and I just can't see them allowing association with the FPJ muck that up.

Finally they have made it clear that their next 'project' is an enlargement of the TBM 850 with a couple (possibly four) more seats and probably two engines.

They are being coy about which SORT of turbine they'll use, but everything points to turbo PROP rather than FAN.

Shane

Dave said...

However, there are at least two other groups out there claiming to have a business plan which MIGHT (sort of) work.

I might be taken to court for violating NDAs, but the name of the business plan is "The Other Other Operation." Seriously, if a major OEM does buy up Eclipse, I do see that as having the best chance. It should be interesting seeing what the further advertures of the Haarlem Globetrotter are.

gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

“Kathy”

Not to leave the day without comment on your questions, although maybe I have missed the point.

Manufacturing aircraft, or any excellent device, is never based on throwing warm bodies at a problem, no matter how well educated in schools . . . even at the “high levels” of academic achievement. Manufacturing/machining/assembling/fabrication, etc., is not a science, no matter what you may have been led to believe, but an “art”, using formal education as a tool, and never as an “end” in itself.

We often get applications from individuals who claim to be “machinists” . . . and during an interview, they are not machinists, but “machine operators”. Anyone with an “opposing thumb” can operate a machine. Sometimes such folks are even “educated” with a liberal arts degree. But a “machinist” is an “artist”, understanding and even “feeling” the material with which he(or she) works . . . having not only an education about the physical properties, but an understanding at the “gut” level, of the behavior of the material.

No “CNC” machine, no “CAD” system, can substitute for the human element . . . the “artist”, any more than a Yamaha* or Steinway piano can make a composer of fine music. Learn all you can about music, learn its history, study the life of all the great composers, their methods, their philosophies, etc., but if you can’t carry a tune in a bucket, or understand what makes a Dvorak symphony touch the heart, give it up.

Such knowledge can never be pushed into a brain, but must be a combination of aptitude, desire, training (“mentor”-ing), and education . . . in that order. It is folly to think that any company can suddenly throw a bunch of college graduates and/or warm bodies together, and have a successful operation, producing a superior, or even “average” product. These things take time, and should only be attempted by those who place value on employees . . . and are willing to invest personal time in a genuine motive to help employees become excellent at their chosen work.

It’s the thing that Deming promoted . . . forget his fourteen points . . . but get a handle on his underlying philosophy. When I finally read his books, I said to myself, “We’ve been doing that for years!” . . . and it works.

You want cheap? . . . send it to China . . . to India . . . to Albuquerque. You want it right? . . . spend the time, build the organization, and carefully select the artists . . . and then, only then, you can use the “machine operators” with opposing thumbs. Even then, treat the ones with the “thumbs” with excellent care, and maybe . . . ‘just maybe, you’ll find a future Kelly Johnson in their midst. We did just that, and found such a one!

gadfly

*Yamaha is a major manufacturer of fine pianos . . . over 50,000 per year . . . and for over a century. The Yamaha symbol is three tuning forks . . . long before they produced a motor cycle. Their quality is second to none . . . except for some die-hards that prefer a Bösendorfer . . . but at $100,000 . . . I’ll have to settle for my Yamaha.

bill e. goat said...

WT,
Thanks for the homework assignment (re: coaxial rotor helicopters)!
You beat me to the answer, but I was working on it- lots of interesting side tracks.
-------------------------------------

I found an excellent article in Wikipedia:
Wikipedia: Coaxial Rotors
Very good discussion- except for the "angular momentum" bit- seems more like torque than momentum to me. Also mentions "Dissymetry of lift"- I was vaguely aware (hmmm, that's one of my defining characteristics I think:) of the concept, but wasn't familiar with the term (until WT used it above)- and didn't realize the significance- I always thought the tip speed of the advancing blade was the limiting factor in forward speed- but nope- it's the Dissymetry of lift.

Militaryphotos.net blog
(Short but interesting discussion of Russian military helicopters)

I was familiar with the K-max inter-meshing rotorcraft (and thought Kaman made a coaxial helicopter too, but nope).

This Kamov navy helicopter, with coaxial rotors
Ka-25

seemed to have a U.S.Navy counterpart,
Kaman HH-43
(Okay, so this is the USAF version- I picked this picture because it shows the tabs on the rotor blade trailing edge, which leads us to this somewhat (maybe, totally?) unique control technique:

The Servo Flap Controlled Rotor
(I'm no aero guy either, but for some reason this tab business seems familiar- I did some reading about it a while back- but can't remember why...)

What is notable about the Kaman intermeshing rotor, is the lateral stability it provides (rather unusual thing to say about a helicopter!:) Seems like it's been used in fire fighting for decades. The reading material for the current production Kmax also mentions controlability advantages:

Kaman K-max
(Hmmm, 13 of 38 are unflyable or writeoffs. Looks like it uses the servotabs on the main rotor too).

I think we are all curious about relative safety of heliocopters versus GA: only 30% penalty. Lots of room for interpretation (turbine, operations, etc.)
Helicopter Safety Statistics
(Note; there is a good reference listed, with a link- a bit heavy reading):
International Helicopter Safety Symposium, 2005

Boeing 347
Don't know what this was about- the 4-bladed rotors are a fairly recent thing- this was some early test bed.

U.S.Army Aviation Museum, Ft. Rucker, AL
(Looks like only a small subset are on display, as marked in red)

Chinook CH-47D
(MTOW=50000 lbs, empty=23400 lbs; cruise speed = 130 kts, range = 400 nm, service ceiling = 18500 ft, 33-55 troops, 28000lbs)
Everyone is aware of the USAF tanker competion fiasco, the Combat Search And Rescue contract is being contested too:
"Last November, Boeing’s HH-47 tandem-rotor helicopter, derived from the venerable Chinook, won out over Sikorsky’s HH-92 Super Hawk and the Lockheed Martin-led US101 as the Air Force pick for CSAR-X. The losing competitors immediately protested the decision to the Government Accountability Office."
CSAR-X contract

Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne
(Another "most moving parts" candidate- three rotors/props on this thing).

Looks like the Chinook formed the basis for the Boeing Model 301 HLH Heavy Lift Helicopter (XCH-62), which was never flown- also at the army museum.
Boeing HLH

Piasecki X-49
(This is a tweaked SeaHawk, with a pusher fan. Piasecki sounded familiar- he's the guy who founded Vertol, before it was Vertol).

bill e. goat said...

Hi Gadfly,
I thought you'd enjoy this:
World's oldest company
Economic conditions forced it to sell out in 2006, after over 1400 years!!

Unknown said...

Well said as usual Gadfly.

I wish I could remember the name of the firm in Bangalore but I can't. When I mentioned that Hampson and Eclipse were basically the same BTW I meant that there were some strange happenings going on.

Maybe someone with better internet surfing abilities than myself can link Bangalore to EAC.

Then again maybe it was just a way for EAC to get engineering and machining done without paying for it...if that's what happened. I am witness to a set of tooling that was made by them that were found to be useless. They were just North of $200K. They sat in their nice crates for months after a simple repeatability study found them to be basically off the charts for the variances that they were designed to measure.

Then again I ask myself what was the tooling used for (would have been used for) in the first place? To measure the relative incidence of FHI wings so that they could be "matched" to aircraft. Well why would anyone need to do that? So they would fly straight. It started around SN 32 after a couple roll issues caused the replacement of wings. This is why some EAC jets have tabs riveted to the outboard aft edge of a flap. Usually it would be the left flap since most planes had a tendency to roll left. At one time a production test pilot Chief called them "Nascar planes". Really.

WhyTech said...

"Thanks for the homework assignment (re: coaxial rotor helicopters)!"

A+

bill e. goat said...

Flash- Learjet Sold !!
...To Bombardier, in 1990, for $75M

Using the latest in ant-enhanced inflation adjustment computer technology, that comes out to about $125M in 2009 dollars.
Ant-powered inflation adjuster
I would reckon back then, Learjet had roughly about five times the intellectual property, facility, and customer base Eclipse has now. So, should Eclipse be going for$125M/5 = $25M??
I think Learjet was bought because it was a bargain- and apparently, bankrupt at the time- sound familiar?

One reason Learjet going for $75M compared to -maybe- $50M for EAC now, is: by 1990, GA had been hurting for 10 years. We're less than a year into the "hurt" this time.

EAC-wise I mean.
Most recent Bombardier quarterly profits

Bombardier time line

gadfly said...

Kathy

Some time back, Honeywell (the one on Bluewater Road NW in Albuquerque that made home thermostats and energy management systems) called me about one of my machines. “It needs to be re-designed” . . . they said. It had been on the “line” for thirteen years, without maintenance, but our guarantee has no time limit. The problem was not the “design”, but modifications of the pneumatic logic, performed by a Honeywell engineer. We gave the machine its first maintenance in thirteen years, returned the “logic” to its original design, and it went back into service . . . putting those little “LCD” displays into place (five days per week) that you look at in your home.

Next thing . . . “Give us a quote for three more machines!” . . . which we did. Then, “You forgot to include a complete set of working drawings with your quote!” “I don’t think so,” says I. About three months later, Honeywell packed up the entire operation and went to China. (By now, I’m sure they “reverse engineered” my design . . . but at least I didn’t give it to them.) “Vintage Honeywell!”

And “Goat”: Shucks . . . we were so close to being the oldest, with our 1,397 year old
“Anasazi brand” (registered) adobe brick plant, using the finest re-enforcing alfalfa straw, “organic” water from the Rio Grande, and fresh Sandia mountain-goat poop! At least it was Japanese, and not Chinese.

gadfly

(Funny thing about adjusting wings . . . or any other thing. If tooling has any adjustment, "it will be adjusted". For that reason, our designs have no adjustments . . . and do not need adjusting . . . so for thirteen years, and counting, the machines did not need adjusting. We have other machines with equal time, and much greater production . . . never once adjusted.)

Unknown said...

The US military is tracking a stolen single engine Cessna that entered the US from Canada. Check the news all!

bill e. goat said...

Gadfly,
I'm glad you didn't give Honeywell your drawings- they sound like real sleezeballs !!

Think those adobe bricks could be used to ah, say, build incinerators? (I'd say ABQ is becoming a "center of excellence" for that technology :)
-------------------------------------

Kathy,
It looks like Bangalore is the center for Indian aerospace, with two organizations,
Indian National Aerospace Lab
and
Hindustan Aeronautics

Looks like NAL is working on a nifty twin pusher prop:
NAL Saras
14-seater.

WhyTech said...

"I think we are all curious about relative safety of heliocopters versus GA: only 30% penalty"

Not so sure that this is the case (that we are all curious) but you may want to look again. Helicopter safety has improved considerably since the reference you cited, and for 2008 is at about 3.67 accidents per 100,000 hours. This is actually substantially better than the GA overall accident rate of around 7.1 per 100,000 hours.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Looks like IS&S hasn't quite bailed on us Eclipsers. Thanks for playing.

gadfly said...

Kathy

'Not sure 'just what you seek, but here are some of many references to "Eclipse" and "Bangalore", etc.:

http://www.accord-soft.com/pdfs/nexnav%20chosen%20by%20eclipse%20aviation.pdf

http://www.hampson-machining.co.uk/files/File/Hampson-India-Press-Release.pdf

http://express-press-release.net/31/HAMPSON%20GROUP%20ESTABLISHES%20STATE-OF-THE-ART%20MANUFACTURING%20FACILITY%20IN%20BANGALORE.php

http://www.andhranews.net/india/2006/November/16-Hampson-Group-Establishes.asp

My "Google" search used simply "Bangalore Eclipse Aviation".

gadfly

bill e. goat said...

WT,
What has happened in the helicopter world to make such a HUGE safety improvement (going from roughly 30% worse, to 50% better, than fixed wing GA), in only 5 years?

(Assuming fixed wingers didn't suddenly get legalized booze- until AFTER they landed :)

fred said...

wow ...

50 Millions $ for this mess ...

i am amazed !

seems that some are having more money than brain !! :-)

desinformation ? or real offer ?

billy : i am sorry to point out this to you , the world's oldest business ; Catholic Church ...
in action since 2000 years+ , probably the richest corporation , not a single day since beginning with a loss ...!

FreedomsJamtarts said...

$50M for the Ecorpse? No way.

What are they buying? A plane design with no customers, no growth potential, no organisationsal knowledge, a terrible reputation, a luxury niche product at the start of depression.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Given that it took Cessna about $300M to develop and produce the Mustang, why would a manufacturer pay anything for the dubious priviledge of owning the Ecorpse IP, when they can bolt the PW 610 onto a clean sheet, own design for less than it will cost to finish the EA500 and restart production?

No pre-pissed off customers.
No crap reputation
No loaded guns lurking in 260 partial completed A/C flown by high risk tolerance, poor decision makers.
No unknown knowns hiding in some of the hundreds of thousands of lines someone elses code.
No systems based on dubious assumptions like "Hey, I have a great idea, lets cross link the engine control systems in an abnormal way and then not mention it

GA has always been a self cleaning oven. Every cycle, weakest get knocked down.

Who needs the return of the night of the living dead III, resurrection of Ecorpse?

RiP!

fred said...

yes , freedom ...

to take all the sloppy downsides of Eac/Eac1.5 /Etirc/Etrick ...

is one thing !

but to pay for getting it is actually pure madness ...

due to all the minus of the saga , whatever is the amount of money put into = it is too much !! ;-)

Shane Price said...

Fred, Freedom,

I have to 'declare' what may not be obvious to everyone reading the blog, especially those who are new to us.

'Snippets' are typically single source bits of information, the sort of data that is not easy to cross check or confirm. Think 'water cooler' chat in an office. What normally happens is that I get an email, which leads to a further exchange that might get upgraded to a telephone call.

Then I might get another, different viewpoint, sometimes from a more trusted contact, possibly by picking something up here in Europe.

So now I 'know' that both sources are seeing (from different perspectives) that things are moving in a specific way. That's when I write my 'Snippet', and typically get a reaction.

Very often, the 'non denial, denial' (see "All the Presidents Men" with Robert Redford et al) helps validate what I've felt was going on.

Now for a little history lesson. After Stan vacated the chair (so to speak) I was concerned that others would get suckered into the EAC 'scam', just as I might have been. To repeat what I said at the time we were sued by Wedge, I smelled a rat.

So, I tend to trust my instincts on this. I'm probably wrong, quite a lot, but fundamentally I believe the blog serves a useful purpose in illuminating this disaster.

Yes, $50 million is probably too much to pay for the assets. But remember that Wedge raised 20 times that from investors, and burned through all of it (and more) before the end. There is no rational explanation as to why this happened, but it did....

I've actually been assured that there is MORE than $50 million being spoken about, but not in cash, which is what the note holders seem to want.

What will happen next? A proper offer, from a real company, probably from outside the United States, is likely to put a floor price in place. The note holders will tout this number to the remaining bidders and see if it's worthwhile having a 'private' auction. Presuming they can get another viable bidder (or two) to compete, then we'll hear an outcome by the end of the month.

If that does NOT happen, then we'll see a 'public auction' of the assets that the note holders decide to dispose of. They may choose to exclude things like the TC or even the IP behind Avio.

Either way, by the end of this month we should have a definitive outcome.

Shane

WhyTech said...

"What has happened in the helicopter world to make such a HUGE safety improvement (going from roughly 30% worse, to 50% better, than fixed wing GA), in only 5 years?"

Not sure that there is any one thing that accounts for this. Two significant factors: 1)The helicopter industry some year ago became concerned that accident rates were not improving, and took the initiative to establish the International Helicopter Safety Team (IHST), with a goal of reducing accidents by 80% over a 10 year time horizon. THis initiative has greatly raised awareness re safety issues. 2) The highest accident rates for helicopters are in the piston powered category, where Robinson helicopters have had among the highest accident rates. Robinson some years ago initiated their own safety program which seems to be working, although piston helicopters still have more than twice the accident rate of turbine powered helicopters.

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Shane,

You are correct of course. Rational decision making has never been a big factor in the Ecorpse saga. Why should BK change anything.

Maybe there is a bigger fool out there sipping the cool aid, dreaming of the skies darkening.

fred said...

Monsieur Shane :

(for explanation as well = some peoples deserve to have the vocable "Monsieur" before their name or what stand for their name ...)

i completely agree with you on the "added-value" of the snippet ...

what i was meaning (sorry if anyone misunderstood...) this very blog seems to be the most lively part of the (still alive?) beast ...

so it is easy to presume that one could feel tempted to have others to react , and to get this result do some buzz on the blog (or better have someone to do it , if it is someone with high regards , only better ...)

a kind of "I found someone to buy my car , so if you want it , you'd better hurry ...!"

i suppose you remember Monsieur Stan's Blog and the nearly comical statements made by some bloggers ( Like Kenny or "i remain amused " ...)

a proof that right from the beginning this blog was sought to be a way of manipulating others or at least try to misinform them ...
(if not trying to shut the critics )

so to your "hunch" that it would go for around 50M$ , if this sum is made mainly in promissory-notes : it could be ok (since the notes would be linked to a good outcome) ...

but i do not see the point for Notes-Holders to exchange some notes against some other Notes ...

cash is king , but i doubt any normal person with average intellectual capacities would put any in this sinking boat ....

would you be please if a dead horse would be left in front of your home door ?

would you be so pleased that you would actually pay for getting it ??


so yes , a definitive outcome ... it could be that nothing is auctioned , but left to rest for a while in hope of better economic time and times passing by , may be in a while "some" will have forgotten about this fiasco , greed helping on the way , they will try to "darken the skies" again ....

Shane Price said...

Fred,

I gather the note holders have made it quite clear that they've had enough 'promises' from people like Roel (and Wedge) to last a lifetime.

It's a cash deal, black and white, no 'ifs buts or maybes'...

They have no interest whatsoever in shares, convertible loan notes, bonds or any other form of 'promise'.

Can't say I really blame them, can you?

Shane

fred said...

Monsieur Shane :

oh no !

i don't think anyone who has been close to Wedge or RiP can be blamed for trying to run away ...! ;-)

i just don't see any sane person putting 50M$ cash on a table to buy this shamble ...

to keep the one already made flying for as long as possible might be something ...

but to buy the "whole lot" (i understand that the high level of integration may link the 2 things together) especially for such a high sum ... is , for me, a proof that current Notes-Holders have no desire to see reality !!

they have been done , more than one time ...
now it would be better (my opinion) to thigh the whole story to a big rock and to drop it in a deep lake ...

just to be able to have the satisfaction , in a while , to say " EAC ??? sorry ... never heard of ! "

so , in this scenario , 10 M$ is already nearly a miracle , 50M$ almost nirvana !!

airtaximan said...

Shane,

interesting comment on the notes/future promises.

Did they learn their leson regarding promises from the likes of Vern,

OR

did they figure out the business is DOA and any promise of future payments based on EAC success is probably bogus?

bill e. goat said...

Hi Shane,
I think we all relish the "snippets". Whether they pan out or not, they provide an intersting peek into the financial and industrial world's thinking, whether particular scenerios play out or not.

Thanks for "snipping" for us!
.)

bill e. goat said...

WT,
Thanks for the info on the fanstastic, really- almost Verntastic! (never thought I'd use that term and mean it! :) improvements in helicopter safety.

It is a mature industry, so I had figured training was pretty well ironed out, but such an impressive improvement in only 5 years makes me think the fixed wing world ought to take a SERIOUS look at what was implemented in the rotory wing world, and strive to come up with some equally dramatic improvements in training and pilot licensing. (And, industry sponsored safety seminars).

Shane Price said...

ATman,

It's a combination of both, in that they are already facing a write off of most (if not all) of the money they put up AND severe doubts about the whole GA business right now.

I think it's also fair to speculate that they are up to their necks in other problems, and really just want to see the back of EAC.

The disappointment they feel is perfectly understandable, in that no realistic bid has emerged from a US based GA company. Its not that long ago that Cessna were quick out of the blocks to buy Colombia Aircraft, who were making mere propellor driven, almost 'amateur' aircraft.

Clearly, the promise of a twin jet has not generated the value some people expected.

Shane

fred said...

atm :

DOA is more likely ...

buying this can serve (very?) remote hopes for any return ...

but it is quite surely a promise for :

more to be spent ...

dealing with angry already owners ...

handling pissed-off depositors ...

work with "don't give a damn" furnishers ...

all medias , even the ones who praised a day before ...

regulatory agencies ...

if any does any business it is either for money return (very doubtful !) or fame ( shame is no fame ...!)

in the case of the Fpj , one is highly uncertain and other a subject of embarrassment !

DOA

airsafetyman said...

I kind of liked Col Mikes and Roels original plan. We will charge each of the owners $200,000 or so just to be in our presence; then we will use the money to buy the parts, after which we will sell the parts back to the owners for ten times what we (they?) originally paid for them to begin with.

bill e. goat said...

Sumpin to think about,
In 2007, a businessman from India invested $200M for Epic, when they only had 140 employees.

Figure the Eclipse facility was large enough for 2000 employees, and had a TC, I'd say he would have easily sunk several times more than that in EAC if he would have had the resources.

I really do think it is a $400M+ facility, with TC and processes and workforce in place.

Oops, sorry about that last one- rather erroded of late. I still think it is "worth" a lot more than $10M (or even $50M).
But, timing is everything- it's the worst time to sell.

(Or maybe not- things seem to be getting a bit worse- I heard "snippets" which confirm Baron's news about Textron- maybe they are anticipating a further decline in market conditions...).

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
You are right about the Catholic church.

Unlike Wedge, I don't think I want to get THAT CEO irritated with me though!

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
You are right about the Catholic church.

Unlike Wedge, I don't think I want to get THAT CEO irritated with me though!

WhyTech said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

Billy :

maybe they are anticipating a further decline in market conditions...

it might be ...!

the Summit has been nothing but a good show ...

the ONLY ones who can put some money on the table without printing first , the B.R.I.C. are already pushing their plans ahead ...

When they succeed (not IF) you can wave goodbye $ as international currency ...

then the past debts will have to be paid in a money that won't be easy to print without any control !!

fred said...

Unlike Wedge, I don't think I want to get THAT CEO irritated with me though!

don't make the usual confusion between CEO and Owner ...

one is protecting a secular business , the other a question of faith !

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
The two kind of got combined into one activity at EAC :)

airtaximan said...

"In 2007, a businessman from India invested $200M for Epic, when they only had 140 employees.

it never happend, IIRC.

Also, I suppose Epic has a product line and a rational plan to make money with the products. Not so with EAC.

Not even close.

bill e. goat said...

ATM,
I'm not sure what happened to the deal (somewhere, I read about $120M, and he wanted to license build the Epic jet in India, as well as the USA). This is one deal that DID sound pretty Verntastic (in the usual context).

Here's the link to the Indian business guy, "the King of Good Times".

(Why didn't Wedge use a sporty title like that? The Human Torch sounds so- menacing!)

fred said...

The two kind of got combined into one activity at EAC :)

sorry , i read it as such :

Wedge tried to build a secular business ONLY on faith ...! ;-)

it's called "the God's like"

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

BEG, Johnny Storm would have something to say about that moniker. ;^)

RAD3 said...

$50 Mil for Ecorpse"assets"? Sounds completely gaga to me too!
And it's no surprise that an established airframer would not be interested. Lets face it they would have to spend a ton of $$ just to finish the thing to a standard that would compete with other offerings available at the price they would have to charge. I mean a couple of Garmin 400s do not a state-of-the-art panel make these days. Then there are the engine "coking" the brakes, tires and on and on not to mention the 10 yr. sell by date. Too much stuff to fix for an AC with a limited customer base.

As for that Indian deal for Epic I'm 99% sure it did'nt happen.

bill e. goat said...

RAD3.
"As for that (Russian) deal for (EAC) I'm (100%) sure it did'nt happen."

Mr. Mann's line.
:)

airsafetyman said...

Capt Zoom says Hawker Beech may be teaming up with the Eclipse owners.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Don't be fooled ASM, non-binding LOI, for maintenance support, IF, EOG buys the assets.

An interesting development, but from what I understand HBC is not in the position to devote any capital to this. Besides, EOG keeps the TC and has the support and certification burden with FAA - beyond currently excess service capacity at HBC due to lower utilization of HBC products, this does not make sense to me on the surface, but I will do some digging.

Without HBC funding things, someone else will have to fund it, hmmmmm, who might that be?

Who might pay for fixes, likely in advance, especially if they have just put up tens of millions to buy the assets?

Hmmmmmm.

Who can it be now?

bill e. goat said...

CWMOR,
I think Honda is the only name that has not been mentioned.
It makes utterly no sense, so in keeping with EAC protocol, that is probably what will happen.
.)

Dave said...

EclipseJet Corners The Market In Alphabet Soup. So there's Eclipse Jet LLC, Eclipse Jet LP, Eclipse Service Network LLC and Platinum, Gold, Silver and Fleet Service Centers.

WhyTech said...

"So there's Eclipse Jet LLC, Eclipse Jet LP, Eclipse Service Network LLC and Platinum, Gold, Silver and Fleet Service Centers."

It seems that there will as many categories of service centers as there are acft in the fleet. How about an "Iron" service center to wash and clean the acft?

I see that Col. Press has been reading the blog and has elected to drop the "Col."

airsafetyman said...

"So there's Eclipse Jet LLC, Eclipse Jet LP, Eclipse Service Network LLC and Platinum, Gold, Silver and Fleet Service Centers."

I couldn't wade through all Col Mike's happy BS. Seems like a desperation move to counter the owners possibly going with Hawker Beech. If you read it carefully, everything is "going" to happen - as in Roel-speak.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

All posturing and pre-emptive BS to try and drive the competition away - kinda reminds me of 7th Grade on the playground.

I am announcing a change to my plan as well - it will now be the CWMoR Titanium edition (TM), all the same realistic possibilities at the same rational value, only fresher and with a hip urban edge - look for Jessica Alba in upcoming ads on AvWeb and in AOPA Pilot.

Forget worrying about what the sharks are up to, the Mackarel is an apex predator in its' own right.

WhyTech said...

"look for Jessica Alba in upcoming ads on AvWeb and in AOPA Pilot."

I dont own an EA50 but sign me up!

julius said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
julius said...

RAD3,

I mean a couple of Garmin 400s do not a state-of-the-art panel make these days.


that's also gaga like $50M ,if there is a company /brand with an accepted name.
The company would not jeopardize its brand because of the fpj.

Even a start-up cannot begin with these garmin 400s!

How much money is needed to modify the fpj so that it becomes a complete aircraft?

The Garmin 400s are show stoppers for Cessna, HBC,...
The current owners might long for them - but a potential owner would not accept that type of glass cockpit!

If the owners offer enough - more than $0.2M /fpj - for the development and the new TC then there might be a chance that HBC, ... will start to ponder.

But what happens in case of hidden bugs in the airframe etc...

DOA!

Julius

Shane Price said...

New post up.

I really enjoyed this thread. I've learned more about helicopters in the three days than the previous 40 years...

Shane

Dave said...

I couldn't wade through all Col Mike's happy BS

It reminded me of Herbert Hoover's
"A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage," but instead its "An upgrade for every aircraft and an eclipse service center in every city."

If you read it carefully, everything is "going" to happen - as in Roel-speak.

Yes, it was more Verntastic vaporware than even was generated by Eclipse as Eclipse at least owned what it generated vapor about. These guys are generating vapor over something they don't even own.

NexNavGPS01 said...

Just need to help clear up the EAC GPS questions and comments.

The NexNav GPS, supplied to EAC replacing the FreeFlight Systems GPS, is fully certified and based on the civil aviation industry's FIRST and ONLY GPS receiver certified to latest US FAA certification standards, TSO-C145c/ DO-229D Minimum Operational Perfromance Standards.

This is TWO certifications beyond the TSOs held by even Garmin, Collins, FreeFlight, etc. These avionics suppliers are way behind when it comes to FAA GPS standards.

Eclipse has the most advanced civil aviation GPS reciever on the planet, NexNav GPS receiver. How NexNav GPS is used on the aircraft is another question. The navigation functionality was an Eclipse issue. We just provide the aircraft systems/navigator the GPS position, velocity and time via our NexNav GPS receiver.

The NexNav GPS technology has a heritage that goes back to 1992 as used in land transportation applications such as on Volkswagons, Skodas and many trucking applications.

Spectralux Corp of Redmond, Washington, USA, was the licensed production entity and holder of the original NexNav FAA TSO authorization. In addition to Eclipse, NexNav receivers have been supplied to L-3 Communications Avionics Systems for their SmartDeck avionics suite and Chelton Flight Systems (now Cobham Avionics Integrated Systems for their electronic flight instruments. The NexNav receivers already delivered via Spectralux will be fully supported.

A new NexNav businiess entity has been created to take on the development, production, support and bring the latest versions of NexNav to market. The new entity is Accord Technology LLC of Eagle, Idaho. More information is found at www.accord-technology.com.

Hope this helps.

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