Tuesday, November 11, 2008

Circling the wagons

First I'm glad to report that Black Tulip has been active again. You can enjoy the latest missive below.

Second a general statement on the 'state of the nation' at EAC. Needless to say I've had multiple inputs, from within and without the company over the past couple of weeks. It's now time to reduce these to a form with we can all discuss.

Finally, I commend those who've stood up for the company on this blog. It's hard to defend the indefensible at the best of times, but with the rather bleak economic outlook right now it must be causing sleepless nights. I sincerely hope that the outcome meets some of your needs, even if I doubt that the structures currently in place will continue.

Current position at EAC
1. Training activity has tailed off. Recently a group were sent home during a course, without convincing explanations being offered. We also know from the Eclipse Flyer that owners are being encouraged to pay for extra pilots.

2. While AvioNG 1.5 has been certified, for all practical purposes it's not available to current owners as it's installation can require extensive works. The 28 ex DayJet aircraft seem to be getting priority in this regard.

3. Significant numbers of senior staff are in the job market, looking for alternative employment. Stop leaving those updated resumes on the printers, please, its' demoralizing the troops. And stop passing your personal cell phone number around 'just in case'. You know who you are, and if you're not sure, contact me and I'll let you know....

4. Last post I mentioned the 'FOQA' software that hides inside Avio and feeds data back to the spooks in EAC. Seems some pilots have been very naughty (acrobatics, anyone...) and have been getting nasty letters from ABQ, which is all in the name of safety you understand. Oh, and stop running into reserve fuel, it's bound to get you a ticking off. Or flying overweight. Or ruining your tires or.... Remember, you are not paranoid, Big Brother IS watching you.

5. I mentioned the following on the last thread, but no one seemed to pay much attention. It's significant in that it's the first time I'm aware of that a customer has sued having already flogged off his FPJ and realized a true loss. Clearly this suit joins those seeking return of their deposit, which also grind their way through the courts.
Atlantic Marina Holdings LLC v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation 11/3/2008
"Unfair Trade Practices. Defendant was negligent in its sale and manufacture of a $1.8 million jet aircraft that was delivered to the plaintiff with several deficiencies that were never adequately resolved. After pouring an additional $128,000 in the aircraft, the plaintiff sold it at a substantial loss."

We move, on a lighter note, to the latest from Black Tulip.

OBAMA FOCUSSED ON ECLIPSE AVIATION

Albuquerque, NM - November 11, 2008 – President-elect Barack Obama met with employees and reporters today at Eclipse Aviation headquarters. In a surprise visit Obama announced, “Eclipse Aviation will be the poster child of my new administration. In the past you may have heard the phrase ‘too big to fail’. From now on that is obsolete. The byword of my Presidency will be ‘too good to fail’.”

“I know a winning business strategy when I see one, and Eclipse has it. If the company had not been unfairly treated and betrayed, it would a powerhouse in New Mexico, providing thousands of good-paying union jobs. I reject the idea that Darwinism has brought Eclipse down. Survival of the fittest is going to be replaced by hope and change for the next four years.”

Obama continued, “It is the robber barons of Wall Street that have denied the wrench twisters of Main Street their well-deserved success. The former will see their assets reallocated, so the latter can succeed. My first act as President will be the creation of the Corporate Restoration Action Program.”

“I intend to spread the Corporate Restoration Action Program far and wide. I will create a new government cabinet to dispense the funds. Note that cabinet heads, formerly called Secretaries, will now be referred to as Ministers. I haven’t picked the Minister of Transportation yet but I know she will have a particular affinity to Eclipse Aviation.”

Obama concluded, “Well, it is time to get back on Air Force Zero Point Nine and head back up North. I want you all to keep the faith. Several hundred million dollars each for Eclipse, DayJet and Pogo should not be a problem.”

As usual, I'll remind our readers that the tulip mania peaked in the Netherlands during the 1630s. The black tulip was the most sought after, until found to be biologically impossible.

Shane

178 comments:

Dave said...

2. While AvioNG 1.5 has been certified, for all practical purposes it's not available to current owners as it's installation can require extensive works. The 28 ex DayJet aircraft seem to be getting priority in this regard.

Roel still planning on taking the aircraft to ETIRCland in refurb condition just as he originally proposed to do? It wouldn't surprise me if right before BK when Eclipse has EASA that those former DayJet aircraft are the only aircraft this side of the Atlantic to get it and then get shipped overseas with Roel subsequently refusing to hand over the DayJet fleet sale price to Eclipse creditors (namely depositor holders and the like).

Shane Price said...

I want to draw your attention to the 'Atlantic Marina' suit.

"Unfair Trade Practices. Defendant was negligent in its sale and manufacture of a $1.8 million jet aircraft that was delivered to the plaintiff with several deficiencies that were never adequately resolved. After pouring an additional $128,000 in the aircraft, the plaintiff sold it at a substantial loss."

The way I hear it, this is the first of a number of such actions heading for the courts. While the 'additional $128,000' is sore, the 'substantial loss' adds insult to injury.

No wonder most of the offers on Controller are now in EACs' name. Anyone else knows they will take a beating....

And another thing. Rumor has it that the reason training was cut short unexpectedly was that the company sub contracted to do the work lost it's certificate. So know, even if you do buy an FPJ, you can't get type rated to fly it.

Sure to do wonders for the resale value of aircraft...

Shane

Dave said...

The Dutch are now saying Roel is going down:
Mayday! Roel Pieper going down!
This just shows how hard it is to keep things secret from other parts of the world. With the internet news just spreads.

Shane Price said...

Dave,

Thanks for the link but be a little careful with the 'circular references'.

Your new Dutch friend has a link back to here as the 'experts' on EAC....

Shane

Zed said...

BIG BROTHER

Any Eclipse 500 owner who does not know that they signed a data-rights agreement should be taken to the woodshed (normally reserved for those that signed it without complaining).

Part of JetComplete maintenance awareness is the accumulation of operational data. Engine data gets stripped and sent to PWC, tires, brakes, avionics data, etc. to feed into life cycle support cost and periodic maintenance estimates.

At least that was the plan, when they could afford servers in the DJS designed datacenter.

LITTLE FRIEND

bill e. goat said... I have been whining about the world needing a 2/3 scale Caravan for quite a while now …

Check out the Quest Kodiak (questaircraft.com). Really nice airplane, especially on floats. Well designed cockpit. Initially designed as a C206 killer, it will eat into the C208 as well … especially since it hauls more, faster, and farther. Oh, and for those that care, it has G1000, with SynVis of course.

HIGHER POWER

The Eclipse training partner, Higher Power Aviation (eee.jetcrew.com) is a great outfit that has been conducting type rating training for major airlines for a long time.

Word is that following AC 61-137 being issued on 26 September, HPA must revamp the curriculum before conducting any check-rides. With the Eclipse 500 specifically called out in the first substantive paragraph of the AC, the FSDO POI was likely spring loaded to the “strict adherence” position.

Given the dearth of available cash, and continued reorganization within training and customer support, halting training was a good decision amid many bad ones. Heaven forbid they have multiple versions of semi-trained pilots out there hoping to fly the multiple versions of semi-complete airplanes.

JEEPERS PIEPERS

Interesting article.

It either didn’t translate well in my browser, or it was written by Fred.

:}

airtaximan said...

from the "dave" article...

"...In short, there are no more rational motives to invent an Eclipse to buy"

Couldn't have put it better, myself!

Plastic_Planes said...

Can't quote it here, but check out the top article about Eclipse on ANN.

The most pressing Zoom article yet...

Shane Price said...

Zed,

It either didn’t translate well in my browser, or it was written by Fred.

I thought you knew...

'Fred' is, in fact, AvioNG. Hence the frequent error messages, sudden unexplained 'disapperances' and highly critical view of EAC in general and the FPJ in particular.

Shane
PS Fred, you know I'm joking!

Shane Price said...

Plastic Planes,

Zoom must be one of those suppliers who were promised payment, only to be let down at the last moment.

Again.

Still, he's still carrying advertising for EAC, so he clearly has at least has some hope of getting paid.

Unlike the depositors seeking a refund, who seem resigned to their fate.

Shane

Dave said...

Thanks for the link but be a little careful with the 'circular references'.
Your new Dutch friend has a link back to here as the 'experts' on EAC....


That is actually my point about how interconnected things are now. What happens in the US gets to Russia and Europe and vice-versa - the flow of information is circular and you can't just say "The Eclipse brand in the US is damaged, so we'll go to Europe" (which is a paraphrase of what Roel said).

eclipse_deep_throat said...

Wonder if UBS is really in a position to help Eclipse lately. Things have been so quiet the last few months...

e.d.t.

From CNBC:

Indictments Could Come in UBS Offshore Inquiry

A federal investigation into UBS concerning its sale of offshore private banking services to wealthy Americans is concentrating on senior and midlevel executives and bankers, and could result in one or more indictments, people briefed on the matter said on Monday.

Investigators are sifting through more than 70 names and related account details of American clients provided by UBS over the last few months to the Justice Department, which has passed the details to the Internal Revenue Service for further scrutiny. The Justice Department and the I.R.S. plan to build both civil and criminal tax-evasion cases against some of the clients, these people said.

The developments put new pressure on UBS, the Swiss banking giant, which is struggling under heavy subprime losses, and on Switzerland’s centuries-old tradition of banking secrecy. The tradition is being intensely scrutinized by the United States and Europe to determine if it helps clients evade taxes illegally.

Amid the credit crisis propelled by the subprime collapse, the Swiss government has extended to UBS a $60 billion bailout and taken a 9 percent stake.

Prosecutors suspect that UBS, which is based in Zurich and has extensive operations in the United States, illegally helped American clients hide $20 billion in secret offshore accounts, thereby evading $300 million a year in taxes from 2000 to 2007.

While tax evasion is legal in Switzerland, it is not in the United States, a difference that has put the bank at odds with American regulators and authorities. UBS no longer offers the services, which it calls cross-border private banking services for United States clients.

The Justice Department has not yet determined how it will handle its criminal investigation of the bank itself. The most severe outcomes could include an indictment, a deferred-prosecution agreement or a plea by UBS of wrongdoing. The Securities and Exchange Commission is also investigating the bank, which owns Paine Webber, over possible violations of securities laws.

In a shift, both the Justice Department and the I.R.S. are pursuing audits of the American clients while the criminal investigation into UBS unfolds. While the agencies recently acquired the power to do both simultaneously, they have not traditionally done so. The I.R.S. and Justice Department declined to comment on Monday.

The scrutiny of UBS could potentially put pressure on the bank through the Federal Reserve, which controls special credit lines to banks through its emergency-lending window, according to the persons briefed on the private banking investigation, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity. They declined to comment further.

UBS disclosed in third-quarter financial statement on Nov. 4 that “the investigations are ‘focused on the management supervision and control of the U.S. cross-border business and the practices at issue.’”

In its most recent quarterly filing, UBS said that Robert M. Morgenthau, the New York district attorney, had issued a subpoena to the bank for the names of all United States clients who carried out wire transfers from their UBS accounts based in America to their UBS accounts based in Switzerland in recent years. The 70 names that UBS turned over were covered under that subpoena.

“We have not breached Swiss banking confidentiality,” said Karina Byrne, a spokeswoman for UBS, adding that the bank had not provided what she said was “Swiss-based client data.”

http://www.cnbc.com/id/27631055

fred said...

Monsieur Shane & Zed :

i take it as a joke !
(anyway it takes a whole lot more to have me raising an eyebrow ...been working in Russia for much too long , already ...! ;-)) )

but since we are with a specialist of idioms ( yes zed , i am talking about you ...)

this is something special for you :

الذي هل تعتقد أنك؟ (sorry it should be starting on the other side , but i don't know if it possible ..)

this is about the same , in case ...:
これと言う人ですか?

ok , i stop the joke before displaying the blue screen of death ... ;-)

mais , je peux recommencer si vous le désirez ...!

airtaximan said...

I think Black Tulip found a way to get Zoom to post one of his satires on ANN...

No way Zoom put that up...

har, har...

fred said...

EDT :

i know you didn't write the article , still the one who wrote this (in CNBC) should look twice at his belly-button and stop doing it after ...

Tax Evasion is NOT legal in Swiss !

like in Luxembourg , it is NOT sustainable in a court if the origins of the tax evasion are not linked with crimes such as drugs, weapons , human trafficking ...

on top of this , it is an hilarious situation (i have a weird sens of humor ...)

the Swiss laws prescribe that anyone breaking the Bank secret can be brought to justice ...

that any bank doing loose its license ...

the US laws stipulate that , since USA is such a wonderful place , as soon as you have a US passport , you MUST pay tax to the US revenues whether you made the money in or out of the country , even if you are living out of USA ... (to my limited knowledge , it is the only country doing so !)

question : when the swiss banks arrived in USA , what did the FED's expected ??

isn't it the very good case of hypocrisies ?

Shane Price said...

More Bad news about Roel from a Dutch website, translation kindly supplied

MyGuide, the company started in 2007 by a.o. Roel Pieper to compete with TomTom and Garmin, is in trouble.

The company has been busy dismantling the European oraganisation, although Roel Pieper promoted the company as the answer to TomTom and Garmin after he participated in the company only a year ago.

According to Pieper the market for these electronic products completely collapsed. The German affiliated company filed for bankruptcy last week and the Dutch and Italian companies will follow shortly. Pieper blames the current financial crises, as banks are no longer prepared to finance orders.

German rumors point to the reduced financing provided by Roel Pieper's investment company Road Group. Pieper expects opportunities in Russia for MyGuide.

Pieper also recently pulled the plug from Opinio, a weekly paper that lacked support of subscribers, and declined to provide the last salaries. The Dutch newspaper ´The Telegraaf' reported recently the demise of his company that would merge clothing and navigation on mountain slopes.


That sounds pretty dire from where I'm sitting...

Shane

Shane Price said...

ATman,

I think Black Tulip found a way to get Zoom to post one of his satires on ANN...

No way Zoom put that up...


Your right, he didn't.

His credit controller did, instead.

How's the cash flow Captain Zoom? Must hurt not to get paid for the advertising after all those endless fawning 'advertorials', the breathless interviews with Vern, the 'inside scoop' on the ConJet et cetera et cetera....

Shane

Dave said...

Pieper expects opportunities in Russia for MyGuide.

Where have we heard that before.

Pieper also recently pulled the plug from Opinio, a weekly paper that lacked support of subscribers, and declined to provide the last salaries.

He refused to give his customers refunds. If he wont give refunds for magazine subscription, don't think that he'll give refunds for a jet.

´The Telegraaf' reported recently the demise of his company that would merge clothing and navigation on mountain slopes.

Yes, the Navjacket. It reminded me of Avio...

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
You're not the "professional idiom" that has stirred up B95 are you? If so, please desist!

BTW...Baron is quite correct about the difference in scale between Epic and Eclipse infrastructure.

I would think a nice in-between would be...Lancair (!). I don't quite get what went wrong with their finances- if their product was a "loser", why did Cessna pick it up? Obviously, not a loser product- quite capable.

And if their facility / infrastructure was "a loser", Cessna would have move it to Wichita, which they didn't.

The economy was still pretty good when they folded, so I suspect their sales were at least stable then.

Anyone know "what went wrong"?

fred said...

Billy ...

i am sorry to remind you : i am not from the US ...

so here , Idiots CANNOT be professionals ... and they cannot become president as well ...! ;-))
(but read above , it is an other bug i found in myself ...!)

Monsieur Shane :

after careful thoughts , i decided to feel offended by your ability to misspell my name ...

I am AVIO NG 2.1 beta !

so since you gave us good service keeping the blog , i live the choice of weapons to meet on the field ...!

but it has to be restricted to WW1 rosalie or 200MM mortar ...

baron95 said...

Ken Meyer said...

Yep, Baron, that's exactly right--how it works is that you do all your setups, get your ATIS and clearance on the systems battery. Then after you turn on the start battery and initiate the start, the electrical system reconfigures such that the start battery is only running the aft busses (principally the starter/generators and a few other items). The systems battery is running most everything else including the avionics. The electrical system is split into two totally isolated halves during the start to prevent the avionics from seeing the voltage drop of an engine start.

That is why the checklist calls for you to check the systems battery voltage before you commit to the start sequence. There has to be adequate voltage to run everything for the 18-35 seconds it takes before the first generator comes online.


Ken, thank you for taking the time to explain. It is very hard to discuss these items without access to the flight manual.

I guess it is an OK design in that the battery that powers the controls "system battery" is not being drained by the start sequence.

I'd still feel better with a fail-safe way to shut down the engines, but I guess we all have to start getting used to computer-only control of things.

KEN - the one thing I'm still puzled by is that EAC said this situation happened a number of times.

The explanation you gave would lead me to believe that it would be a very rare event - i.e. have the system battery go below 18V exactly in those 30 secs or so in between commencing the start sequence and generators going on-line.

Perhaps pilots were really trying hard to flick the "system" on with a tiny bit of charge and hitting start. Who knows.

Lets see if the EAC buletin puts and end to the practice.

baron95 said...

Zis said ... Because of this arrangement, you need at least 20 volts to turn OFF the avionics buss. The danger is that with a lower voltage, the avionics buss will be connected to the battery buss, and transients coming from a ground power unit could harm the avionics.

Zis, similarly, thanks for taking the time to post a complete explanation. I still think there is little chance of damage to the avionics from a power cart connection (engine off). And if you were worried, you could still pull out the individual avionics breakers just in case.

But, the manual is the manual. Either way, you'd have to run the engines on the ground for a long time to insure safe levels of battery charge for flight. Might as well remove, recharge and fly later.

Ken Meyer said...

Baron--I'm aware of only one occasion when it has happened, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised that there are others.

The gist of the problem is that pilots were under the (mis)impression that they only need to check the START battery for adequate voltage (23 volts) prior to engine start.

The episode I'm aware of involved a careful, diligent, very capable pilot who ran the avionics a long time while he waited for the fuel truck to arrive and while his plane was being fueled. After the fueling was finally completed, he checked the START battery and found adequate voltage for engine start, so he proceeded without paying attention to the fact that the SYSTEMS battery was very low.

You can't do that, but it wasn't crystal-clear to all of us prior to these episodes that BOTH batteries have to have adequate voltage (after all, logically one would assume that only the START battery is important because it is what drives starter/generator). The whole purpose of the CPC was to make pilots unmistakably aware of this important point. It was actually already buried in the checklist, but was not adequately emphasized previously.

Ken

airtaximan said...

correction to Ken's post...

"The episode I'm aware of involved a careful, diligent, very capable pilot who ran the avionics a long time while he waited for the fuel truck to arrive and while his plane was being fueled, AND FOR A WHILE LONGER UNTIL I RETURNED FROM THE WASHROOM."

KIDDING!!!

Thanks for the explanation Ken. Glad to see you are still posting real world owner data about the plane.

Be safe.

baron95 said...

Where is the confirmation that Avio NG 1.5 has been certified by the FAA?

There is nothing on the EAC web site about it.

bill e. goat said...

Fred,
(I do hope you caught the "M" rather than "T" in my reference to "professional _ _ _ _ _ .)

So, how's Avio 3 coming along?
:)

baron95 said...

Ken, a couple more questions if you don't mind (this has prob been discussed on the owners forum)...

If the system shuts down during the engine start process (system battery depleted), does the start process continues with no control? Or is fuel introduction immediately halted?

I understand that if the engine manages to start, with the system battery depleted, there is no way for the generator to go on-line and charge the system battery and/or enable you to regain the computers and engine control functions, right?

Otherwise there would be no harm. Either the engine start is aborted or it starts and generator goes on-line and you regain function.

baron95 said...

bill e. goat said...
(I do hope you caught the "M" rather than "T" in my reference to "professional _ _ _ _ _ .)


Very subtle and clever BEG - I only caught it now, myself, after your alert.

Fred, if you keep this up, I'll end up liking you - so we'll have to arrange a AMG vs R8 race. Cannes to Monaco anyone?

baron95 said...

B.E.G. re Lancair/Columbia vs Cirrus...

They do have many advantages 10 KTS faster, utility category, better safety reccord, G1000 and Turbo model launched sooner, etc...

BUT, they were perenially low on cash and got tatally outclassed on marketing.

Cirrus sold planes based on BRS-chute, colors, interior appointments, a great Web site, a great owners/pilots club (that EAC copied), and a marketing program of demo/mentors going around the country. In addition, they had an entry-level/fleet option to pay the rent in the SR20.

Lancair also cought some bad breakes, like having to suspend shipment for a while because of G1000 bug and getting several completed planes caught in a hail storm on the ramp.

They also made a couple of bad decisions, like insisting for a long time on EVADE anti-ice - that piece of crap never worked and when it turned on it melted the fuselage, not the ice. Cessna, rightfully scrapped that and is about to offer TKS (not FIKI).

So ALL their problems were instantly fixable by the Cessna acquisition. Stable funding, better (not great) marketing and financing, support, all on an airframe and factory that are basically very sound.

So it should do well under Cessna and it is a good counter to Cirrus to keep their prices in check.

If Diamond ever gets the DA50 certified, and in production, it should outclass both though.

Turboprop_pilot said...

B95:

With Lancair's pressurization experience in the IVP, I'll bet the 400 could be pretty easily pressurized and be a very real competitor to the Mirage and DA50.

I flew a Malibu for 4 years and think its cabin layout, pressurization and FIKI make a nearly perfect plane. Too many wings have come off and a piston at FL250 doesn't last very long however. The Meridian with the new wing from the Piper Jet- now there would be a really good plane- much stronger wing, more span and much more fuel so the range would finally be acceptable.

My favorite plane would be a small version of the Piaggio- 6 place (w/lav) with two P&W smaller engines and RVSMed to mid 30's and 350 kts +.

On the subject of single engined turbines, did anyone read "What I learned.." in this month's Flying- landing at sea in a Jetprop Malibu conversion from a flameout during decent?

Turboprop_pilot

Turboprop_pilot

Dave said...

Iacobucci Speaks and speaks some more! Ed hasn't said whether or not he's refunded his customers or if he's just shafting customers by shifting assets between DayJet entities. Between the two reporters one says that Ed sold some of the IP while the other says that Ed is a minority owner, though they could both be right with Ed having sold some of DayJet Technologies and is now a minority owner because of the sale.

WhyTech said...

"Cannes to Monaco anyone?"

Paris - Dakar more interesting, in which case my money is on the R8.

Ken Meyer said...

Here you go, Baron:

1. "If the system shuts down during the engine start process (system battery depleted), does the start process continues with no control? Or is fuel introduction immediately halted?"

According to Eclipse, if the systems battery voltage drops to 18 volts, the system will disable numerous avionics functions including the aircraft computers. You need an ACS to abort the start; without it the FADECs would continue autonomously until they hit whatever their minimum design voltage is. At that point, the engine will continue at present fuel flow.

2. "I understand that if the engine manages to start, with the system battery depleted, there is no way for the generator to go on-line and charge the system battery and/or enable you to regain the computers and engine control functions, right?"

You need both an ACS and the R/L forward ECBs to work in order to complete the post-start electrical reorientation (which puts the systems battery and forward busses back online with the aft busses and therefore permits power from the generator to reach the systems battery).

So, this is really analagous to the situation in my 340 wherein you have to have 18 or 20 volts in the battery in order to access external power. In the case of the Eclipse, you need 18 volts in the systems battery during the start or you will not be able to access either external power or generator power for the systems battery.

The 23 volt minimum for engine start provides a big safety margin so that you don't get down to 18 volts during the start. But if you don't follow the checklist, bad things can happen.

Engine start is a unique time period for the Eclipse electrical system in that it is the only time when the systems battery powers the avionics by itself. That's by design to shield the avionics from the voltage swings of an engine start. In flight, the avionics can be powered by either of the batteries or either of the generators. During engine start, however, the design is vulnerable to single-point failure if the pilot permits the system to go into the engine start electrical configuration with very low voltage in the systems battery.

Ken

Turboprop_pilot said...

Ken:

As an engineer, I'd say that is a bad design decision- first, a mechanical fuel shutoff is clearly needed and is an AD worthy flaw. Second, a filter on the power and the ability of the greater voltage to re-energise relays so either the engine generator or external power can access the computer bus and batteries so control can be regained.

This looks like software engineers being in charge and looking down their noses at lowly EE/MEs with airplane design experience.

Turboprop_pilot

Ken Meyer said...

"a mechanical fuel shutoff is clearly needed and is an AD worthy flaw."

The FAA doesn't think so. The remote fuel shutoff was scrutinized during FAA type certification. And, reports I've seen from the EASA certification effort indicate that EASA isn't requiring a mechanical fuel shutoff either. There is no talk of an AD.

The merit of the Eclipse design is that no fuel lines enter the cabin (and there is no mechanical linkage to an external valve to fail). Keeping the fuel lines all outside the pressure hull is a clear safety advantage.

The disadvantage of the Eclipse design is that the fuel valves depend upon some portion of the computer system functioning. That's acceptable because of the high level of redundancy in that system.

I imagine the first fly-by-wire aircraft designs were greeted with skepticism, too :)

Ken

julius said...

Ken

You can't do that, but it wasn't crystal-clear to all of us prior to these episodes that BOTH batteries have to have adequate voltage (after all, logically one would assume that only the START battery is important because it is what drives starter/generator).


does this mean, the system battery is a single point of failure during the start sequences?

Perhaps you remember (2007?):
A DA42 with Thielert engines had a drained battery. It was startet with via external power supply which does not load the battery.
Contrary to FM the a/c was started,
the legs were to be collected and the engines failed. The a/c made a controlled landing after the runway with some material damages to the a/c.
Reason: The LG needed more power than the generators could deliver. The engine electronics (at that time without batteries) collapsed and the engines stopped.
Obviously, it was a poor design of the electic system.
Actually the change to electronical controlled engines was a paradigma change with regard to the electrical system.

Julius

Shane Price said...

Whytech,

"Cannes to Monaco anyone?"
Paris - Dakar more interesting, in which case my money is on the R8.


Since Baron challenged Fred to an AMG v R8 race, I'm going to stick an oar in.

For Paris - Dakkar I would insist on a G55 AMG, or even an ML55 AMG.

The R8 would be toast as soon as we hit Morocco. Or rather its' suspension would be. Or the front air dam. Or the sump.

You get the (sand) drift.

No, give me a big, 4 wheel drive Merc (with a supercharged V8 of course) for this challenge, any day....

Shane
PS For the second time today, sorry Fred, or should that be, sorry AvioNG 2.1....

Dave said...

The disadvantage of the Eclipse design is that the fuel valves depend upon some portion of the computer system functioning. That's acceptable because of the high level of redundancy in that system.

I would imagine that it doesn't have to be one or the other and I also don't think there can be a high level of redundancy when you depend on one system. It is a matter of record that engines have locked up for a variety of reasons, so theoretical high levels of redudancy don't matter (as we learned with the throttle quadrant Eclipse hadn't considered engines being locked up that way, nonetheless the real world trumped the theory). I would for instance imagine that there could be an electronic kill switch separate from Avio if nothing else.

airtaximan said...

"Engine start is a unique time period for the Eclipse electrical system in that it is the only time when the systems battery powers the avionics by itself."

Really?

Keep thinking

WhyTech said...

"even an ML55 AMG."

Had one of these. What a dog! Would barely get to my office without problems, let alone survive PD. Since you are changing the rules, I'll take a BMW R1200GS in PD trim and leave you in the dust!

Shane Price said...

Snippet(s) time.

1. Higher Power Aviation, don't list EAC on their clients list which might be because no one at EAC bothered to pay them. These are the people who have not been very busy type rating new pilots in the past couple of months.

2. Senior EAC people were overheard today, for the first time, talking about 'the end'. It seems the board of directors are in almost constant meetings.

Hmmm...

Captain Zoom goes from lapdog to Rottweiler, the type rating company heads home, Roel's empire appears to be tottering due to multiple business failures and now even the 'leadership cadre' are muttering doom and gloom.

I'm not sure exactly how this will pan out, for the benefit of FPJ owners and position holders.

Perhaps Ken can explain it all for us?

Shane

Zed said...

Interesting discussion on engine circuits.

Almost 2 decades ago I flew a military "type" airplane where the DEC, fuel valve, igniters, and start switch were on a dual circut ... normally powered by the Emergency Battery Bus, but powered in parallel by a mini-generator on the accessory gearbox. If the engine was turning then the engine circuit has power.

On start, the APU or Huffer turns the engine, the engine generates the juice, which then makes everything work.

As long as there was ~8-10% RPM the circuits would work even without battery power. In reality, a very simple system.

airtaximan said...

Perhaps Ken can explain it all for us?

Of course...

""Engine start is a unique time period for the Eclipse electrical system in that it is the only time when the systems battery powers the avionics by itself."

That pretty much says it all... together with Ed's comment about needing $5 Million to keep the daydream alive, and the ea-50 was the only plane available at that LOW acquasition and "projetcted" (projected is my words) operating cost.

I think the REAL issues are prety clear.

julius said...

Ken,

The disadvantage of the Eclipse design is that the fuel valves depend upon some portion of the computer system functioning. That's acceptable because of the high level of redundancy in that system.


the level of redundancy might not be the problem, but the total system must resist more gs than the engines! And this must be proved!

A separate (electrical?) switch does not look nice but is easier to certify!

Julius

Zed said...

Higher Power ... Part Dux

(that was for EnnGee Too Point Won Beta aka Fred)

A while back I had a great conversation with Mark Stearns, President of HPA. They were excited to be onboard, and reportedly built their side of the business on Vern's throughput projections. (Recall that this was in the wake of United Training walking away for unstated reasons.)

A short time later my brother-in-law completed a 737NG type at HPA during an airline step-up. He reported that HPA had a great, but ultra focused team ... no extra folks hanging around on overhead.

His class rumor-control implies that HPA wound up with more instructors than needed, is getting stiffed on payments like the rest of the vendors, has had to lay off folks recently, and is in no position or inclination to help Eclipse.

Supposedly they declined to attend a short-notice FAA meeting, and the FSDO POI (rubbed raw by DC bosses in the wake of Congressional Hearings) decided to yank their Eclipse training approval.

Shane Price said...

Snippet(s), again. Things are moving quickly now....

1. Seems suppliers have started repossessing items, including tools, a fuel truck(?!) and even the security fencing from sections of the factory.

2. Loose lips sink ships but it appears there is talk of EAC V2.0. They are however, struggling with a name....

I think it's our duty to help. Useless (who's mad enough to have a second go at this mess?) suggestions to the usual address:-

eclipsecriticng@gmail.com

The prize, as always, will be decided by your humble custodian.

And before anyone else mentions it, I'm ruling out FPJ Inc, as we've used it here already.

Shane

bill e. goat said...

Baron95,
Thanks for your comments on Lancair.
Thinking about it, I remembered, (well, then I forgot, but I re-remembered) something I overheard a while back about airplane manufacturering.

The proposition was generally this: you don't make any money upfront (selling the airplane), you make your profit on aftermarket support*.

(*In the case of Eclipse, I suspect this "aftermarket support" will be mostly handled by lawyers :).

The reason I mention this is (well, I forgot that too, but it came back to me)- the reference you made to "stable funding".

(I don't think anyone would have made a reference to Vern using "stable", and would generally do anything it took to avoid a discussion with him about "funding"# :).

Perhaps if a company has enough backing (Say, Cessna supporting their Lancair subidiary), it can afford to sell the airplanes at essentially zero profit (or might be forced to, by competition**), but make an overall profit with spares and support infrastructure.

But if a company never gets enough planes out there to reach that "critical mass" (Lancair?), or they have so many airplanes out but under warranty (Eclipse?), the "payback" with aftermarket support never works out.

----------------------------
**competition: one of the things I disliked about the Eclispe (original) price structure was the pressure it put on other "legitimate" manufacturers, particularly Cessna. It's good for the public when competition forces product upgrades.

But bad for the public when it forces other companies to cut already slim profits to match a startup's loss-leader sales.
---------------------------
# Regarding funding...maybe "ole Ms. Karen" could show up with a bulging briefcase with some bills sticking out, and ask a few questions under the guise of a potential investor?

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

It is funny to see ken try to explain things to you guys. With the exception of baron it is always met with scrutiny. Shane himself even jests that ken can explain everything... Ken keep flying your plane man, don't waste the energy in your externsor pollisus longus, lumbricles, etc. (If you remember Gross Anat, good times...) Anyway I get it man, they never will, nor do they have too.

Shane Price said...

Whytech,

Two can play at that game.

I'd choose a camel. I'll loose a lot of time in France and Spain, but come the Sahara and your BMW (with two wheels missing) will be under real pressure.

Agreed on the ML. A lot if it has to do with where it is built!

The G-Wagon however, is STILL built by the 'original Germans'.

In Austria, of course...

I'm tempted by a GL, but I'm not sure if it's really big enough. What do you think?

Shane

airtaximan said...

A few things to ponder...

Imagine if Eclispe actually delivered the plane (even in the sorry unfinshed state) in 2005 or so as planned.... details...details... who cares about the details - Vern can dream, Ed can dream, the Quebecer landing gear suplier can dream, and so can I...

Here goes: Flash back to 2005 and EAC begins deliveries... the market place is on fire, no "burst" in site - credit and cash flowing... happy days.

Step-1 "deliver" 100 planes
Step-2 IPO with fantastic BS smoke and mirrors numbers

by then, its EAC blowing $300-$400M per year OPM, of course

*** Repeat (Adjusted for enter into service instead of deliver... for Dayjet, also blowing OPM to the tune of $200M per year

See Ed and Vern on their yachts, right next to Pieper in Antibes...

Now, its 2008... all the IPO dough is gone, Vern and Ed have executed their plan, and the rest of the story is exactly as it is today -

2 failed business models and plan, back to back... blaming the "economy"....

On today, two guys are out there saying "what if...what if... the timing was a little differnt?

Personally, I think the delays cause some "cosmic justice"...

I can only imagine if Ed and Vern made off with buckets of cash from an IPO... and everyone else was left holding the bag.

Come to think of it, this is Pieper's MO, right?

He is not fairing so well, this time, it would appear, either.

bill e. goat said...

Ken,
Thanks for spelling out the info on starting!

Julius,
Thanks for the reminder (ah, what did you remind me about...oh yes):

The 2007 incident with a DA42- I kept thinking this sounded familiar, but couldn't pin it down.

Zed,
"the FSDO POI (rubbed raw by DC bosses ...)"
Well, that rubbed me- the right way! Good for them !!

I don't think everyone fully appreciated the dedication of the FAA cert guys that filed their suite. In private industry, if you make waves, and make life hard for your management, and get "blowback" for it, you can always move on to a different company. The FAA guys are certainly talented enough to be snapped up by industry, but most are where they are, because the like the job, and serving the public interest.

For them, "moving on" is not the same as "moving over"- it's more a case of "moving out".

I am very proud of them for taking the risks and standing their ground.

Shane Price said...

Bill.e Goat.

Could you check your inbox please? If nothing has reached you, you might contact me at the usual address.

Thanks.

Shane

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

I just read our chum EPx's comments.

Ken, you suck and are a liar.

There, that ought to satisfy EPx.

.)

---------------------
(Just kidding of course. I've appreciated both Ken's insights, and patience, in staying with us!!).

WhyTech said...

"I'm tempted by a GL, but I'm not sure if it's really big enough. What do you think?"

Big enough for what? My limited exposure to this vehicle has me wondering why anyone would pay the asking price. Perhaps the beauty is there and I havent discovered it yet.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Shane,
Thanks for the "back channel" info.

I never would have guessed it would be that soon. My guess would have been about-

hey, wait a minute- somebody's at the door...

airtaximan said...

and... no one is telling me?

Thanks

Dave said...

and... no one is telling me?

You really don't know?

bill e. goat said...

btw,...
Just kidding about that "back channel" stuff- rather, Shane had some blog "administrative details" to confide.

(Turns out I've been so obnoxious, he's raising the monthly fee he charges to allow me to participate).

And those two intimidating looking hoodlems at the door? Just a couple of investment bankers panhandling for a few Billion bucks. I told them trick or treat was over.

(To which they responded: "You ain't seen nothing yet!")

-----------------------------
I would wish our friends in ABQ to sleep well tonight, and thank them for all their hard work for the customers. Yes, times are challenging, and yes, it is good to be prudent. The blog really IS a great source of information, but I would caution them, while informed observation is demonstrable, informed speculation is still...speculation.

And I'd like to thank the academy for making this moment possible.

baron95 said...

The first light GA design I'm familiar with that had electrical control only of the fuel lines was the Aerostar. And that fuel system was the subject of multiple ADs. In the end though, after proper training (mandated when the insurance underwriters woke up) solved the fuel mismanagement problem.

As I said before, it is a worthy design goal to keep fuel lines away from the cabin.

In the end, it maybe that after the latest pilot communication buletin, there will be no more low bat start attempts on the Eclipse and it will be problem solved.

A middle ground, which would be my preference, would be to have an emergency-only power source (dedicated battery), which can simple command an engine shutdown.

But after Ken's more detailed explanations and the EAC CPC, I feel it should be simple for the pilots to avoid this situation.

Time will tell.

Re Paris Dakar, I'll respectfully decline and insist on my selected course. I have no interest in driving through desert with sand up to by eyeballs, cammels and the like.

I was proposing a civilized lunch in Cannes, followed by a mid-pm (moderate) dash to Monoco for coffee. Winner pays the bill. Beautiful people on both ends and a good chance to collect the ocasional Lambo, 430 or GT2 along the way.

P.S. the 6.2L is the first engine (AFAIK) completely built by AMG (vs supercharging derivatives). It is in a different class from the junky MB engines. But it does run *hot* enough to slowly cook the hoses under the hood ;)

baron95 said...

Or at least it cooked the after market ECM bits I had under the hood ;)

fred said...

Baron :

#Cannes to Monaco anyone? #

i know that you are pretty much in the dump , on the other side ...
but such an offer ?

Cannes to Monaco ?

let me guess ... Monaco = because in the US it is a place known for its one time princess ?
and Cannes = for its festival ?

ok : i know that you are probably broke or on the verge to be or it will be very soon anyway ...

but a race on less than 39 kilometers (in straight line) is that what the crisis has left in your pocket to buy some gas ??
as well as the car , LIKE the Fpj :

buying it is ONLY a fraction of the problem !!

i would propose you a Munich to Berlin ... a bit more like a race with some portion still "speed free" (unlike the french "provencale" highway , probably one of the most speed-checked in France , due to the fact that too many "lunatics" come to Monaco and for impressing the local girls(the typical post-soviet Ukrainian 6 feet tall blond bitch scaling her own interest in you on the size of your wallet!don't say anyone but there , on riviera, they call them "chichoune" which is "low class prostitute" in provencal slang) , have a little run on the highway ...)

as well as less than 39Km , i am not even sure the engine would be enough to have the engine reaching the right Temp° ...

that would be too easy for me , you on German highways ... not used to the way of German drivers ... would be some kind of comical ...!

as well as you could check directly with Daimler-Benz that you DO NOT NEED to call to know the name of the one who tuned your AMG engine ... ;-))


NO , i would propose you an other race ...

you and me , strictly alone , without any exterior help, no assistance whatsoever , no electronic, no translator with each one in a 2CV ...
to do the Paris-Dakar , mentioned here ... not very difficult only from Paris to Spain then Morocco then Mauritania then Senegal ...
with a fixed amount of money when we start and no credit-card ... let's say the money for Gas + 1 Euro per day for all other expenses ...

it is ONLY about 3.000 Miles race (poor Kenny it would take him about 2 years to finish ! ;-) )

will you take it ? ;-))

fred said...

Kenny :

#reports I've seen from the EASA certification effort indicate that EASA isn't requiring a mechanical fuel shutoff either #

you are perfectly right ...!

they insist on other aspect on the problem ...

which is : They (EASA) wonder HOW you can do anything with the Fpj when high-up on level XX to do anything with the aircraft ...
since the redundancy is controlled by a software which MAY experience some difficulties to properly assume its function IF the problem is NO MORE POWER ...!

have you ever tried to start your computer WITHOUT plugging it before ??? even with the proper device ... it doesn't work , even if computer are programed to be "clever" on energy consumption !


this is where instead of trying to pretend that "FAA doesn't care so why EASA should ?"
(just a hint :with the fiasco Fpj/Faa cert. has been , i would guess EASA is not giving a damn shit about what FAA think on Fpj !)

it would be better (or at least more constructive) to stop pretending to not care about this issue (once again EASA don't give a plum for EAC : NO Fix = NO Cert.)
or that they can fix it (where it is VERY difficult as it would need an extra-battery ... in which case : if shari decide to fly , you have no real other choice than to drive due to weight factor)

a suggestion (if any can be made to the master of masters of design: EAC) try to put a Manual Emergency Stop for engines ...

it wouldn't fix all problems in itself ...
but would be a little more constructive than the present (and past) habit from Etirc/EAC :
(which is , for memory , in case)

"EASA wants something done on our master achievement ? Ah ...Ah ...Ah , FAA is not asking , so why should we care ?"

fred said...

Monsieur Shane ...

Once again , you insult me ...!

my name is AVIO NG 2.1 BETA !

do not forget the "beta" as it is an important phase of my dev. ...!

just for a reminder ,geeks are used to call with Greek letters all the versions of their UNFINISHED work !
(unless they already don't know anymore what is going on "inside the beast" and hide this fact behind those letters ...)

Alpha
Bêta
Gamma
Delta
Epsilon
Dzêta
Κta
Thêta
iota
Kappa
Lambda
Mu
Nu
Xi
Omicron
Pi
Rhô
Sigma
Tau
Upsilon
Phi
Khi
Psi
Oméga


I suppose that reading this alphabet , you understand WHY it is so important to REMIND you of the "Beta" ...

we are still quite far from being finish (what do you expect anyway with the Merry Band) as beta is only the second phase of dev. !

as for any implementation of a finished form of the software making me , some of the geeks working on me are spreading the word that "they are looking for a job" not that i am too bad or too imperfect , but they use a terminology that my interface cannot apprehend :

"even horses have to be shot , sometimes"

i don't understand why they compare me to horses ...?

julius said...

Fred,

bonjour!

Beta

Oui, c' est chiade avec "beta"!
En logiciel ca veut dire "en essai" - ainsi il y a deux chances: accepter (sans beta) ou terminer , nous allons commencer a une autre fois et nous somme en retard - ou oublier tous!

Je crois, Ed, RB, RP et les femmes (quelquefois) aiment une autre fois alpha, beta.... ,omega!
Mais les epargnents - peut-etre jusqu'à epsilon comme IPO!

Bonne chance au sable ...!

Julius

fred said...

guten morgen , Julius ...


thanks for your wish ...

but i really wonder what would be the most scary for Baron ...:

driving on a German Highway with someone coming at 300KM/h in your retro visor ...

being overtaken by a Polizeî car while himself being at 300Km/h and NOT being arrested like the public enemy N°1 ...

or to find out that in the desert , a simple 2CV would do fine ...!

fred said...

as for software :

one of the things that always amuse me with Geeks ...

politeness is an absent word (they do multi-versions ! why not doinf the proper one in the first go of selling ?)

excuses are called with the weird name of "Patch"

for this , EAC seems to be no different ... so many patches to be applied on so many things ... from so many suppliers ...

sometime i wonder if Vern wasn't french , somewhere in his head ...

as in France , it is something known by all :

"What is the fun of making things simple , if they can be complicated by and for pleasure ...!"

fred said...

as for women :

why do you think i have learned the Japanese alphabets ?

= Hiragana + Katakana + Kanji ...

julius said...

Fred,

sometime i wonder if Vern wasn't french .

no - perhaps he tried, but he didn't manage to pass the Belgium
border!

I think if you haven't driven a car with more than 200 km/h on the autobahn (2 lanes, feel some gravitation) without any stress you will not understand it.
I have seen a MB car, than won Paris-Dakar and that car had comparatively small tires
(relatively the same seize of 2CV). The Sahara doesn't consist only of sand dunes...

If Baron doesn't speak at least a little bit of french then he has no chance to understand the fench savoir vivre. Reading or writing doesn't replace the normal way of communication - speaking, listing , and looking...

RP is really proving the rejudices about his capabilities to build up a company.
But is he going to lose some money - i am not sure!

Julius

eclipse_deep_throat said...

An interesting tidbit: 31 positions for sale are of Eclipse 500's. Wonder who, if anyone, is buying. I don't see the market clearing on Controller. Cheapest one there is s/n 60 for $1.4 mil...

e.d.t.

Pre-owned Bizjet Inventories Continue To Climb
By Chad Trautvetter

November 11, 2008
Business Aviation

Pre-owned business jet inventories rose by 10 percent last month and are now 57 percent above year-ago levels, according to a report issued yesterday by UBS Investment Research. “Used inventories have been building steadily since the end of 2007 and in October reached a fourth consecutive all-time high at 2,564 aircraft,” noted UBS aerospace analyst David Strauss.

Most concerning, the increase continues to be led by aircraft less than 10 years old, a category that rose by 18 percent between this September and October, taking it to more than double the number in October last year. At 15 percent of the in-service fleet, total pre-owned business jet inventories are approaching the 17-percent peak of late 2002, “with young used already well above prior peak levels.

New-aircraft delivery positions for sale last month were up 19 percent from the previous month and were four times the year-ago levels. Thirty-one of the 176 delivery slots on the market are for Eclipse 500s, most likely influenced by several industry analysts’ prediction that Eclipse Aviation will fold early next year.

However, UBS believes that “the increase in delivery slots available for sale [also] reflects a combination of reduced customer demand and difficult financing conditions as the run-up in aircraft values that had driven many of the recent listings is reversing.

http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/pre-owned-bizjet-inventories-continue-to-climb/

fred said...

julius ...

you understood me ...

the first time i had stark-terror while driving a car was on Autobahn (Frankfurt/München , if i remember well)

i was over-taking an other car , the other was doing something like 150 , i was at something like 180 ...

suddenly in the back , i saw someone using his flashing high-beam to push me out of the second lane ...

he was at more 240 , smelling of it !

the first time , it is quite a shock ...
so i try to imagine our Baron , used to 55/65 Miles/hour on a German highway ...

=Priceless ! ;-))

fred said...

billy :

#I am very proud of them for taking the risks and standing their ground.#

off-course !

this is where i believe in individuals of quality ... but much less on country's qualities (whatever country it is ...)

countries are made of peoples ,a country can turn out bad or/and a joke for the others , very fast and very easily ...
it needs only a very few ones in the right places ...!

julius said...

Fred,

driving in Germany stress free means for me stay on the left lane!
Naturally those who want to drive faster get their space to overtake!

And what about driving in consruction areas with 80 km/h - trucks on the right in the reach of your pax's arms - a nightmare if you are used to broad roads!

BTW: ED (AIN Nov 10 2008) still believes that his companies could have survived with about 35 tickets sold per day instead of the realised 15.
Furthermore he claimed the credit crisis for the failure of his airtaxi business.
I have learned: If a farmer cannot swim it's because of his trunks...

Julius

Zed said...

Fred -

Now that we are all on Death Watch … psi*… I imagine that exchanging stories of cars, (completed) airplanes, and good beer is an acceptable blog pastime.

My first experience on the Autobahn was in 1992. Flying in from the States with my oldest son Space-A on a C-5 and C-141 (troop seats), I had reserved a nice Audi, but when we got to the lot at 0200 only a sad Ford Festiva remained.

I literally had the gas pedal pegged on the floorboard the entire time (it could not in any way be construed as an -accelerator- pedal) and while I pondered whether the engine would explode, the -real- automobiles passed me like I was standing still … because, I was almost so.

Having flown tactical jets for more than a decade at that point, the closure velocity was not a shock. Seeing cars appear in the rear view and then almost immediately their tail lights vanishing in the windscreen began to get comical. I was certainly a hazard, but had no alternate route.

To this day, even the fastest drivers on US highways fail to generate that “holy c—p, here comes another one” feeling.

Zed

* poor attempt at geek Greek humor

fred said...

ZED :

Pardon , je suis désolé mais je ne comprends pas ...!

ok , that was bad humor (on my way of poorly writing english ...off course !)

you get the idea , it is quite fun to see this effect on non-used-to-it for the first time ...

i have a good buddy from the states , who came once to see me , we went on autobahn to go to one of his relatives in USAF based in Germany ...

i viciously proposed him to drive , off-course he accepted then he pulled-over at the first parking place asking me if everybody was mad or what ...!


Julius :

oh , yes trucks on autobahn , what a disease ...

but one of the thing i find very good on autobahn : when speed is free = it is up to everybody but when it is limited = most stick to the rules ...

where in France it is much slower , but if there is "special limitation" (works , etc...) nobody gives a damn ...!

Schwein Franzosen !! ;-))

fred said...

zed , reading again your post :

if we are to discuss of completed aircraft ...

i am afraid Monsieur will have to change the blog's name ...

Completed + Eclipse in the same place = there is at least one thing too much ... ;-))

Zed said...

Fred

If ... OK, when ... Eclipse goes BK we can discuss the 250+ completed aircraft of 250+ different variants produced in ABQ.

I say completed becuase their current state will be their final state. Maybe I should use the term "terminal" instead of completed.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dave said...

Forbes has an article on the Eclipse lawsuits. The content of the article isn't notable but rather the publication is. Eclipse made a big deal to get lots of worldwide publicity and if you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Oh and surprise surprise Eclipse has ANOTHER lawsuit:
EPAC Aviation PTY, Ltd. v. Eclipse Aviation Corporation
However, this sounds like a new class of lawsuit separate from depositors, 60%ers and former owners as EPAC was an Eclipse DISTRIBUTOR:
Eclipse 500 paves way for Australian fractional ownership scheme
This is only for the refund of a single deposit, but this was touted as a distributor rather than just a buyer:
The purchase of the individual Aircraft was to be part of a larger business relationship between the parties. Based on Defendant/Seller’s representations that it had the financial resources, management, viable distribution model/strategy, and commitment to expand distribution in certain distant overseas markets, including in the Asia-Pacific Region, Plaintiff/Buyer extensively worked with Defendant/Seller for Plaintiff to become the exclusive distributor of Defendant’s products and services in Australia and New Zealand and to enter into an exclusive distribution agreement and fleet purchase agreement. Defendant’s representations were false. Defendant did not have the necessary financial resources. Defendant did not have a viable overseas distribution strategy; instead Defendant simply wanted to book overseas fleet orders because of dwindling U.S. sales, and had engaged in initiatives and policies which were antithetical to any viable overseas distribution strategy. As a result, Plaintiff has suffered damages, including, but not limited to, out-of-pocket expenses it unnecessarily incurred related to advertising, marketing and other activities.
This isn't all they say and they sent a nastygram to Roel about how badly done Eclipse's steps toward international sales has been...they say Eclipse cluelessly just made it up as they went along rather than having any sort of planned international strategy. JetGroup is the parent company.

fred said...

9Z :

i believe you didn't get a little nuance , here ...

yes , i agree money is needed to starts the engines ...

what money cannot get you : a completed aircraft !

as said by zed :

a terminal state of incompleteness !

baron95 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
baron95 said...

Well, things must have changed in the Cote d'Azur in the past couple of years.

I remember the Cannes to Monaco run being more like 50 KM or so, and I had no prob having fun on the A8.

This is actually quite revealing. You offer the French/Europeans the home court advantage, and they still come up with all sorts of excuses not to show up for a "friendly" drive.

Back to aviation and Eclipse...

Where is the confirmation or retraction (Mr. Shane Price) that Avio NG 1.5 has been certified by the FAA?

fred said...

dave , good link (as usual !)

definitely true ! if you live by the sword , you'll die by the sword ...

Forbes being the "paper of the rich 'n famous"
i think a year ago , vern would have sold his mother to have an article in it ...

now if even Forbes present Eclipse as looser ...

I wonder what owners (the speculators , not the flying-lovers) are feeling for being left holding the bag ...?

fred said...

baron ...

Monaco is NOT France ...
and
Germany is home , for me , as well !

then

who told you i was friendly ? ;-))

fred said...

and I think it was KennyBoy who wrote about FAA Cert. for Avio-Ng ...

Zed said...

So ... do we possibly have a new word in the Eclipse vern-acular?

Is an incomplete, complex aircraft "incomplex"?

fred said...

as for the changes on Cote d'Azur ...

i wrote "in straight line" exact Kilometers are unknown to me ...
i don't really like the area , too much vanity for me ...!

what has changed a lot :
speed-enforcing ! now if you're french or with a french driving license you loose 4 points for speed-ticket , you have 12 for 3 years ...
if you are a foreigner , you pay on the spot a dire fine or they keep the car ... or you won't pass the border anymore ...!

with 2 exceptions : Luxembourg and Germany , which accepted to merge theirs matriculations systems together , enabling the french (or any other) state to sue you directly in your country for speeding ...!!

airtaximan said...

Baron,

I think they said FDA

fred said...

FAD ???

like a drug ???

now , lots of things are self-explanatory ... too many got stoned on EA500-high !

Zed said...

Hmmm ...

FDA

Name Brand Drug
Eclipse 500 in the 16.6 Perf/$ version is $2.15M
PREPAY Only
Refills not Advisable
Parts not available
COPAY = Immeasurable Completion Costs and Devaluation
Mentor Required
Training requires intervention of a Higher Power

Generic Alternative Drug
Mustang in the 20.7 Perf/$ version is $2.4M
Parts available at your local A&P
No Co Pay
Coverd by most insurance

Zed said...

Fred –

Reportedly Mike McConnell also ascribes to the Greek alphabet.

When confronted with customer concerns, he reportedly exclaimed “I don’t care one iota”.

Omega … I mean Zed

Dave said...

Eclipse 500 in the 16.6 Perf/$ version is $2.15M
PREPAY Only
Refills not Advisable
Parts not available
COPAY = Immeasurable Completion Costs and Devaluation
Mentor Required
Training requires intervention of a Higher Power


Who knows how much the final price will be to get it to spec. Even though people on the surface have paid less for the FPJ, the final bill to get the aircraft to the promised condition could push the price above the Mustang...assuming that there's someone around to do the retrofits in the first place.

fred said...

#the final bill to get the aircraft to the promised condition could push the price above the Mustang #

Woaow ...
what a good deal !
someone to remind me who was stating over and over a 40% difference

The Real Mike Is Back said...

I'm indifferent about the election - they're all the same. But that Obama thing is so stupid. Grow up.

Turboprop_pilot said...

Real Mike: Are you sure you are in the correct blog??? We talk about airplanes here.

Turboprop_pilot

Black Tulip said...

Real Mike,

Peter Pan promised me that I won't have to grow up.

bill e. goat said...

Zed,
I find your comments informative and witty.
"Are you sure you are in the correct blog??? "
:)
-------------------------------
Avio 2.1 BETA,
(I mean Fred),
I would take being compared to a horse a compliment, if it were only the front half.
Probably much confusion due to being a four legged creature...
Noble Creature
(find the little "expand" button to capture the full effect).
Such a magnificent beast. Obviously, a creature of ingrained sophistication, class, and discriminating taste. (Oh EPx, how I do go on! ;).
I would note this particular variety, with it's rugged and handsome looks, is Irish, a rather fitting tribute to our host Shane!).
Four Legged Creature of Beauty
(in the eye of the beholder, one supposes...)
--------------------------------
Speaking of "the back half", what's going on with "the back half" of the Elcipse?!?
(e.g., has a replacement wheel chock for the bus, I mean vendor, been selected to replace Hampsons?
-Thanks.
---------------------------------
This vendor situation is about the only reason I can figure Eclipse has gone into the "go slow" (ah, well, relatively speaking, that is) mode, but not furlowed everyone. To wit; they must anticipate production resuming "soon", so one would look for a reason that is "soon" rather than "immediately" or "never", and that a vendor is in the works. (Or, they are tooling to do it themselves).

I hope all our friends in Albuquerque will have paychecks through the holidays, and trust they will*.
-------------------------------
Regarding checks, and those NOT in the mail...
What's up with suit business? If say a dozen (or so) purchasers want their money back, why not do it?

I think the blog figured a while back that it takes around $20M/mo to keep the doors open, and about the present level of activity (No, that's not a good choice of words, but you get the idea).

If 12 guys want 60% of $1.5M back, then that's only (hey, I'm starting to sound like a Wall Street banker now!) about $10M, or half a month's activity. Not chump change, but cheap insurance to keep the rumor mill tuned down.
--------------------------------
*Speaking of the rumor mill, Mr. Goat has been hearing ill rumors throughout the industry, of late, and would remind our viewers that "the early bird catches the worm" when it comes to relocation in a down market.
I don't know what's going to happen at Eclipse, and certainly don't want to contribute to the already "elevated" (above 5300') anxiety level there.

I will humbly share my observations about the "pulse" of the industry of late:
the good news, it's still beating, the bad news, it's slowing down some. My SWAG: "ginger" hiring thoughout 2009. Accompanied with "less than ginger" events in certain arenas.

If anyone can contribute news, postitive or negative, that would help our friends in ABQ plan for their future and rest well throughout the holiday season, I truly exort them to be forthcoming. Anything we can do to "help the troops" in ABQ is appreciated.

It makes me sick to think of the rollercoaster ride they've been on for years. Let's hope Mr. Pieper's impressive business credentials and connections are sucessful in restoring order to the situation.
-----------------------------
And thanks to all the US Troops, a belated Veteran's Day wish!

Shane Price said...

Whytech,

.... My limited exposure to this vehicle has me wondering why anyone would pay the asking price. Perhaps the beauty is there and I havent discovered it yet.

I never pay the asking price, for any car I've ever bought.

Right now, in my local Merc dealership, there's a black GL 320 CDI, fully loaded with all the toys, which I'm pretty sure could be mine for less than 50% of it's list price 14 months ago.

Now, if I wait just another 8 weeks, I figure they will drop to 35%.

Isn't depreciation, combined with a good old fashioned recession, just great for people with plenty of cash?

Speaking of cash, its....

Snippet time!

I pop down to the south (Cork, to be exact) for a day and the inbox is BURSTING.

1. Another depositor has issued suit. The crazy thing is that they paid their deposit in MAY. Yes, this year. Never heard of the INTERNET chaps? I'm sorry, but these guys are prime candidates for the (financial) Darwin Awards, so I'll spare their blushes and not tell you that it's an Aussie company called EPAC Aviation PTY.

2. It seems senior management at EAC have totally clammed up, causing already scared people at the factory to 'freak out'.

3. Several sources now confirm the Zed has a good handle on the HPA 'situation'. Basically, they weren't getting either the promised volume or their bills paid. What would any sensible business do?

There are also more rumblings about 'credit cards' and '$200 million owed to suppliers' and 'senior managers looking for jobs'. Oh, and there was a pretty serious exodus on Friday last.

Or so I'm told.

Again.

And again, and....

Well, you get the picture.

Shane

stan said...

Cessna Announces Plans to Lay Off 500

by Eyewitness News (kwch.com)

Cessna will be laying off 500 Wichita employees, the company announced Wednesday, in addition to 165 employees in it's Bend, Oregon plant.

Spokesman Doug Oliver said the layoffs will come after the new year.

Due to the number of layoffs, this is a WARN (Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification). Workers will receive their notifications in the coming weeks. The WARN gives workers of a 60 day notice.

The 500 job cuts will come from all departments in Wichita. Cessna employs roughly 12,000 people in Wichita. Cessna employs roughly 450 people in Bend, Oregon; 165 jobs will be cut there.

Cessna is asking for workers to volunteer for the layoffs. This will help reduce the number of involuntary layoffs that occur. Employees who leave voluntarily will get a severance package and can leave immediately. This voluntary layoff programs are open to all employees as well.

Dave said...

Due to the number of layoffs, this is a WARN (Worker Adjustment and Retraining Notification). Workers will receive their notifications in the coming weeks. The WARN gives workers of a 60 day notice.

Other aircraft manufacturers WARN, while Eclipse just gives the finger.

Dave said...

Here's someone who says they were an early stage investor whose investment has been diluted into nothing (but back in February they still talked Eclipse up):
Ben Rosen Blog:Eclipse Takes Off

WhyTech said...

"Cessna Announces Plans to Lay Off 500"

Something of a surprise as I just read that Cessna has someting like an order backlog of $14 billion, apparently about 3 years of production.

AlexA said...
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Niner Zulu said...
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d said...
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centers1012 said...

I just got home from work,Eclipse Avation, and we were told that our checks are going to be bouncing. They told us that they don't know when money will be issued, but they are working to get funds. Just wanted to share.

centers1012 said...

Needless to say, Im done with Eclipse. Pretty much all we got was the finger.

torn said...

tonight eclipse announced it would not make payroll for 11/15/08. it is over.

fred said...

billy , thanks for providing a photo of yourself
(kidding , off-course!but if you feel like being offended , the 200 mm mortar is still available ! ;-) )

it helps me greatly to put a face on a name ...!

fred said...

for the ones who are in the " frying pan" named Eclipse ...

i do feel it must be some kind of ]¤€~#{[|` to find oneself with celebrations of end of year in sight ...

as usual with Eac (pointed out by Dave) , you gave sweat , time and efforts , if your paycheck are bouncing what they pay you back with is a "raised finger" ...

i am shared between two sentiments , the first = to tell "what did you expect ?" ; the second = hope the ones who had not a leading role in this nightmare to recover soon (for the leaders , i wouldn't write anything as some would probably faint reading me ...), and not to suffer too much from this situation (specially if there is young kids home !)

so all my wishes for those specified ones ...

keep in mind that the end of something is ALWAYS the beginning of something else !

fred said...

if it is the end :

i suppose the money coming from Vnesheconombank (VEB) ( the one that was ALREADY in the pocket ...)
in fact never arrived !

or it is the very point in the knowledge of foreign idioms (no , billy NOT foreign Idiots !;-) even ii I accept the fact that you "know" me ... )

as what i see here is the "confusion" roel had about one acronym with two different meaning : VEB ...

it is real treason to have a bank who chose such a name ...

VEB can be Vnesheconombank or Volkseigener Betrieb ... ;-))

Bloody Russkiis !!!

julius said...

Fred,

bonjour,

VEB

you might be right if Volk = Vladimir!
Although some Russians have datschas in Antibes, is it a good place to live for Roel? His high risk games might cause some problems for his neighbours, too.

Anyhow EAC managed to deliver an a/c - congratulation, but only if it is complete (autothrottle,.... are standard!) one and not the standard FPJ.

Interesting: ABQ-journal (Nov 11 2008) posted an AP article starting with Eclipse "Aviation Faces 4 Lawsuits over Refunds" and ending with the hint, that a FAA certification was rewarded on a Saturday despite internal objections. I think Heather Clark knows how people are reading newspapers...
One brick less in the wall...

Julius

Dave said...

tonight eclipse announced it would not make payroll for 11/15/08. it is over.

If this is correct, I'd suggest anyone planning on taking legal action do so now before Eclipse enters into BK. The less action you've taken prior to BK, the more the courts look down on you and the harder it is to make a claim. If for instance you were planning on suing Eclipse because the resale value dropped due to the aircraft being incomplete, you might find yourself completely shut out of court unless you filed your case pre-BK. Depositors are more clear-cut, but depositors shouldn't sit and wait either as courts don't like that.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

If the payroll story is accurate my heart goes out to all those effected, the timing, as usual at Eclipse, sucks going into the Hoidays.

My experience has been that these things have a way of working out.

Some sites that may be useful are:

www.ceweekly.com

www.pdstech.com

www.butler.com

If/when the other shoe falls, apply for unemployment right away as some states have up to a week of wait time and if they are dealing with a thousand new applicants there could be some disruption.

Good luck, be there for your families first and be prepared to branch out a bit if need be.

uglyabq said...

I hear from a friend of a friend that it's true. The parking lot at SP9 looks pretty empty. It's usually filling up by this time of morning.

julius said...

dave,

tonight eclipse announced it would not make payroll for 11/15/08. it is over.


maybe, it's correct. Anyhow it's also not new anymore (naturally not in terms of exact date).

If a company turns into "money conservation mode" with zero press release - apart from lawsuits, lay-offs, "next financing round" rumors - then everybody may expect TU.
At the end the nices words of the boss of the bosses are unfortunate misunderstandings, blah, blah ....



Julius

eclipse_deep_throat said...

It is official as reported by the local Channel 4 station; it just showed up on their web site:
http://kob.com/article/stories/S659886.shtml?cat=500

Employees are being told to call a 1-800 number to see if they will get paid "later in the week." But I count Friday, tomorrow, as the end of the week. Clearly, they had to have some knowledge ahead of time that they would not be able to make this payroll date. I would be surprised if Peg, Roel, and Todd didn't get paid today.

I'm checking with a few of my friends and other contacts for more details. The local station is also reporting that employees are concerned for their vacation time and 401k; there is no clear answer as to how or IF those monies will be paid. Personally, I'd count that as theft and I can only hope some good local attorneys can get the wheels going to ensure people are paid for what they have earned. What EAC Management has done is criminal, IMO. My hart goes out to all my former co-workers who are affected by this mess.

E.D.T.

bill e. goat said...

:(

Dave said...

I'd count that as theft and I can only hope some good local attorneys can get the wheels going to ensure people are paid for what they have earned. What EAC Management has done is criminal, IMO.

In this case it might be, though I am not up on employment law, particularly in NM, but I do know that employees are a special class and there are things you can do to other debtors that you can't do to employees.

One thing that comes to my mind is about the taxes owed on those wages. Are the employees liable for all the taxes on their wages even though they apparently aren't getting paid? I would think such areas could lead to real hot water.

Black Tulip said...

EDT,

Many states have laws to protect employees when operations cease. Officers may be protected by the 'corporate veil' from vendors and other creditors. However, payroll and payroll taxes must be paid, or officers may be subject to criminal penalties. What are the rules in New Mexico?

Niner Zulu said...

E500 values were probably cut in half today.

My heart goes out to the workers and their families in ABQ who are the real victims of this tragedy.

As for the buyers/owners of E500's - is there really anyone who didn't see this coming? Although I've been pretty hard on Eclipse here on the blog, I hope those who were offended by any of my past comments can now understand why.

Dave said...

This is what I thought. It is a federal crime failing to pay employment tax:
Examples of Employment Tax Fraud - Fiscal Year 2007

Zed said...

Tulip -

While they don't have to pay payroll, unless they fire the employees, they do owe Uncle Sam, Cousin Bill, and Brother Marty the full tax burden (FICA, SS, etc.) on the payroll DUE.

The guvmint isn't happy when you don't pay employees, but do take considerable offense when you don't pay them.

Their contribution schedule may be monthly (but likely weekly) ... so this will play out fairly quickly, or the leadership team will be liable to the feds, state, and city.

Somebody call the G Men !

Zed

bill e. goat said...

I must admit, I'm still perplexed that Roel didn't trim (temporarily) the workforce in half weeks ago.

Alghout it sounds a bit "detached" in light of most recent developments, I prefer to take this as a good sign- that he had/has some realistic expectations of getting funding soon- I'm sure he saw the on-hand cash dwindling, and knew when it would run out.

If he had expected that the funding would not be approved, I would have expected him to have trimmed work force then.

I don't think he's a "go long or go home" idiot like Vern was.

His plans might have been overtaken by the world financial events of recent weeks, but I would like to think he still has some plan in the works.

(That said, with the western world's credit crisis, and oil prices crunching Russia, it is certainly a "challenging" environment. Still, I think he would have arranged for a gentler landing if he thought it really was hopeless, so perhaps there still is hope for the coming weeks).

If there is anything that makes me feel uncomfortable with this optimism, is that perhaps Eclipse was trying to bluff the EASA guys- delaying BK until they got the EASA ticket; while the EASA guys were dragging their feet hoping Eclipse would just go away before they got their hands dirty handling it (no doubt there is some sentiments along the lines of "we won't get played like the FAA was", and were aware of the financial peril Eclipse faced). Kind of like both sides trying to out-wait each other.

The infrastructure Eclipse has is impressive, and a TC is a valuable comodity. I hope if Roel's funding comes through soon. Mr. Mann has been a pinch hitter for a long time, don't know if the upcoming Christmas season will bring out a few weeks of good will (and furhter sacrifice) on his part. He's been a saint, or a sucker. I think mostly a saint.

I give Roel credit for getting rid of Vern. Regretably it's probably beyond his ability to get rid of them, but there are two other total losers that have directly led to the present lamentable (and avoidable) situation:

Poling and Kresa

This two stooges are poster boys for what's wrong with business in the USA.

fred said...

is there any workers with us ?

there is one possibility to scramble that Roel of yours ....

In Luxembourg , not paying your staff is consider almost like a crime ... (make sens , they are so tough and strict!)

if any is interested , i can use my connections to see if there is anything left in Etirc account ...

as in Lux. the responsibilities-chain CANNOT be broken ... ! (if a firm enroled in Lux. buy a firm who owe money to its staff , then it becomes Lux.firm task to pay out ...!)

fred said...

billy :

like you i do not have too much optimism on situation ...

In Russia , right now , it is a bit messy ...

they are thinking about the point of devaluating the Rubble !

the VEB i was talking about earlier , is getting orders to re-finance all finance sector RUSSIAN first !

sounds like an earthquake reach them ... BubbleGreenspan , what have you done with the world finances ??? !!!

fred said...

but i do not really understand your meaning about "poling and kresa" ...

poling ? = the guy who was trying to develop transatlantic business ?


kresa = ???

Dave said...

Per the KOB link:
Some employees attending the meeting say that company officials told them that they stayed up into the early morning hours trying to find a way to assure the workers would be paid but were unable to do so.
Even if that is true, doesn't that point to Eclipse's overall problem of poor planning? Somehow normal companies of Eclipse's size are able to give 60 days notice, yet Eclipse by their own statements decides at the very last minute that they wont make payroll. Taking it as red that they did stay up all night, shouldn't they have done this months ago and had a plan in place?

julius said...

bill e.goat,

is EAC BK?

I do not think so!

RP defintely will pay all taxes,
unless he is out of reach of US -
or everything got screwed up!

Perhaps he treats his employees like his customers just trying to get time, postpone the BK.

Dave or D. I. stated that in case of an "early" BK RP must pay if too much money was returned to his pockets.

Julius

P. S.: This was the very last call to look for another job!

metal guy said...

Well, there was plenty of warning, that’s for sure.

Ken, it’s great to know that the efficiency of the Eclipse Jet is .03567235001 better than the Mustang right about now. Thanks for all of the relevant input.

I must admit, I'm still perplexed that Roel didn't trim (temporarily) the workforce in half weeks ago.

I’m still perplexed that they did not substantially trim the work force when DayJet went under.

Like down to 100 people type trimming - in a controlled fashion. If they had, they would still have quite a bit of cash to figure out a new model, preserved core people, and even perhaps preserve some of the investor’s interests.

Now it’s all toast and will grind through bankruptcy for sure.

Longbow said...

Fred said, are there any workers on here.
Yes, there are. And, as usual you guys here on the blog were right on the money with your predictions. We knew also that it was just a matter of time. Now, no vacation paid, no insurance paid, no paychecks.....

Dave said...

Dave or D. I. stated that in case of an "early" BK RP must pay if too much money was returned to his pockets.

It is very difficult to do once the assets leave the jurisdiction of the United States.

However, this raises the issues of what Governor Richardson and Martin Chavez knew or should have known regarding Eclipse's financial status. I expect these guys will say they were clueless, which might be true, but wouldn't be an acceptable answer.

fred said...

i just had a phone talk with a friend who happen to be a Lux. Lawyer ...

he is going to look on what can be done from overseas ...

even if he has been very clear that such kind of firm are regularly without any big cash on account ...

he stated that it could do some good to do a "triangulation" ( if money is gone , it is either in Luxembourg , Holland or Russia )

fred said...

Julius :

yes , it could be a move to postpone a bit having to pay employees ...

or to see until where he can go too far and with what kind of reaction ...!

anyway , i believe he is like a snake (all his previous affairs seems to make him difficult to catch his pants down ...)

Dave said...

For someone who was personally not paid by Eclipse, it might not hurt to file a report here:
NM TAX FRAUD INVESTIGATIONS DIVISION
Also this would seem real fishy given how Eclipse has recieved millions to pay employees for training. That would seem like a separate fraud matter if those employees aren't getting paid.

nateihazone said...

I work @ the Gainesville service center. Seems the dayshift was sent home. We've been told that supposedly the money is there, just has not been released to the company. hoping to hear something definate in the next day or 2. But as of now, no paycheck.

AvidPilot said...

I heard the Gainesville service center is locked up, no one answering the phone, with customer's Eclipse jets inside.

Shane Price said...

NEWSFLASH

Multiple reports reach me that local radio and TV stations in ABQ have spoken to staff leaving EAC in the past few hours. These employees were told by the company that their paychecks would not be honored this week.

The reports, together with a flood of emails from suppliers, customers and staff to

eclispsecriticng@gmail.com

lead me to conclude we have reached a critical point.

As soon as there is some definitive statement from the company or a reliable alternative source, I'll put up a new headline post.

Shane

Dave said...

I heard the Gainesville service center is locked up, no one answering the phone, with customer's Eclipse jets inside.

If that is true, that may be Conversion on Eclipse's part in regards to the customer's property.

airsafetyman said...

When the Gainesville, FL, service center was behind on the rent the money eventually came from ETIRC or ETIRC Aviation (Roel either way). Where has the payroll money been coming from, both in the past and currently?

Dave said...

Where has the payroll money been coming from, both in the past and currently?

I'm guessing depositors. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

gadfly said...

All that whistlin’ and shovelin’ . . . and no pony!

Does this mean there won’t be free turkey’s for Thanksgiving?

gadfly

(Total production of complete jets remains at “Zero” . . . who could have guessed?!)

Zed said...

Is this syzygy?

The point of maximum darkness at the totality of the Eclipse?

julius said...

dave,

It is very difficult to do once the assets leave the jurisdiction of the United States.


that's right - what happens if RP is "wanted" (for US) and arrives in f.e. UK?
Sitting with his money in France for the rest of his life - that is not his target.


Julius

Dave said...

DayJet looking for $5 million to restart:
DayJet To Resurrect Itself

Dave said...

that's right - what happens if RP is "wanted" (for US) and arrives in f.e. UK?
Sitting with his money in France for the rest of his life - that is not his target.


If Roel is wanted criminally that is different than purely civil matters. Roel could find himself in world of hurt in that case even if he is in europe.

Black Tulip said...

As the mouse said when his tail was caught in the trap, "It won't be long now."

fred said...

Nateihazone :

#We've been told that supposedly the money is there, just has not been released to the company.#

i am sorry to tell you this :

IT DOESN'T EXIST !

i have been working long enough in finances to tell you that even the world worst bank (french ones ,but don't tell anyone!) will NEVER do such ...

you see , as soon as the transfer is confirmed the receiving bank is much more relax with its debtors ...

some do a kind of overdraft facility to be able to charge the client then after ...

any way as soon as the transfer is confirmed , the funds are to be released to the beneficiary in one way or an other ...
(think : you just won the Jackpot in a lottery , some hundreds M$ , do you think the bank is going to refuse you pocket-change , if you prove them you are the winner ?)

on the other side , there is rumors in Lux. that our "friend" Roel is close to be broke ... too many "disruptive" deals and projects ... and that Roel's friends aren't going to move a finger to help him out ...

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

Hi Fred,
Long time Board of Mis-directors:
Poling (Ex Ford Mo Co)
Kresa- Ex Northrop
Did nothing except attend meetings and smile.

I always thought the board of directors, was supposed to...well, direct things. These morons just sat in the corner and smiled while the plane (and plan) was going down.

They didn't have the effectiveness to direct anything. I'm not sure if it's because they are stupid, or lazy. They don't even have the gumption or self-respect to resign.
--------------------------------

Julius,
I don't think EAC is BK either (at least not yet). That's what makes this so weird. Usually a company goes BK to hang on to workers and capital to carry them through a difficult period.

EAC has not filed BK,
1) trying to get the EASA cert first, or
2) really didn't think they'd need to (which, might be a good sign, of at least what Roel did expect to happen).

I don't think Roel is trying to drain Eclipse of funds, otherwise he would have laid everyone off and run with the bank reserves.
----------------------------

Metal Guy,
“I’m still perplexed that they did not substantially trim the work force when DayJet went under”.

That, and the fact they have not (yet) filed BK, makes me hope “the check is in the mail” for continued operations. It might not arrive for a few days, but I hope it's coming.

I think Roel has been sincerely trying, not necessary because he believes about the long-term viability of EAC, but more it serves the long-term interests of ETIRC.

(And, I will give him the benefit of the doubt, and do believe he really is trying to meet payroll obligations, as best he can, in this difficult climate).
November 13, 2008 9:28 AM

fred said...

dave :

#Roel could find himself in world of hurt in that case even if he is in europe. #

well , i am not so sure ...

lots of countries within E.U. are adept of "hot potato game"
(ie : we haven't seen you but get the f***k out of here , now!)

the places where (in Europe) Role could feel safe are :

Russia (they don't give a damn about other countries claim , which is a just return :those countries never agree to RU justice demands ...)

and some other minor countries like Ukraine (with the mess CondoRice and GWB has done there , it is not anymore double or even triple standards , but multi-level standards ...if you have cash , you buy anything!)

Belarus (who would like to go there ?? they are still under Stalin-times )

Moldova (even worse than Belarus ...)

or Holland ( they do not extradite their own citizens , but then Roel would be stripped ...!)

Matthew said...

i didn't know where to post this but i have been reading this site for a while as i was enrolled in an eclipse manufacturing training program. Today they sent us home with two days left in the class with only one explanation, eclipse is closing its doors... this a bit off topic is this post i know but this looks to be the most active, it still hasn't hit any news sites that i can find but I'm sure it will soon.

Dave said...

I don't think Roel is trying to drain Eclipse of funds

I agree in that I think it is about getting the IP for ETIRC Aviation. I think all the money has gone for EASA (as Eclipse said it was doing).

airsafetyman said...

"NOBODY goes down market,"

EVERYBODY is going downmarket in the current environment! Cessna (I believe) is missing the boat by not bringing back the Conquest!

fred said...

thanks for your explanation Billy ...

i guess a "foreign idiot"(yeah , me! kidding ...) is going to bed less dumb tonight !

the board seems to me like the story of 100 monkeys = if you leave in a close room with type-writer , after a certain amount of time , you'll end-up with the complete work of Shakespeare ...

but i suppose they(board) are not even going to be worth reading ...!

Dave said...

Neither Eclipse nor DayJet should be able to get away with blaming their failures on the economy.

baron95 said...

My sympathies and best wishes to the EAC employees. It is a tough time of the year and a tough economic environment to loose a job.

As for all the talk of fraud and criminal behaviour, could you guys please stop? It is NOT a crime to run out of money as a company.

It is indispensable that companies can fail without personal liability to investors and managers. That is why more companies get started in the US than any other country.

Have been part as an investor and officer of start-up companies, it is pretty par for the course to work hard trying to close the saving big sale or finding the saving big investor through the last second and the last dime.

There is likely no crime here and no evil intent from the management - they are also losing their jobs, their options, their reputation.

This commie talk is just misplaced.

It is a start up company. They tried to do something in a "different" way, they made mistakes, they failed. Duh, as expected in 9 out of 10.

Thank god this is (still) the USA and we let 9 out of 10 fail gracefully so we can have the next Cisco or Intel or Google or NetJets or JetBlue.

Dave!!!! Please give it up on the criminal charges. This is a start up story. We've had enough of criminalizing business failure in the US already.

gadfly said...

Matthew

This has been on news sites beginning at about 6:30 AM, Mountain Time, on KKOB 770 AM radio. Since ABQ no longer has an evening paper, you won't read about it until tomorrow morning in the Albuquerque Journal. But it will be on local radio and TV stations all day.

No wonder our "governor" (our "G Man") wants to be appointed to the next president's cabinet . . . it may not be safe (politically) for him to stick around New Mexico, with his close association to Eclipse.

gadfly

(Now the fun begins with the "blame game" among the local politicians. I'm looking forward to a politcal cartoon by "Trever" in the ABQ Journal . . . he's truly good and usually get's it right.)

julius said...

Fred,

anyway , i believe he is like a snake (all his previous affairs seems to make him difficult to catch his pants down ...)


I always believed snakes catch their victim, digest it, wait and then start the next project....

Anyhow EAC is not TU.

Seems VR and RP have at least one common hobby: cash burning!

Julius

fred said...

baron :

#It is a start up company. #

waoow !! after 10 years + ?????
i wonder WHEN a firm stop to be a startup ...


#Thank god this is (still) the USA and we let 9 out of 10 fail gracefully so we can have the next Cisco or Intel or Google or NetJets or JetBlue.#


unfortunately , i believe this time is GONE !

the current situation (worldwide) is primarily e result of TOO MANY schemes aiming at spending TOO MUCH for nothing of a REAL VALUE ! (as in effective terms , not speculation and in productivness , which has been declining steadily over the years in US)

Dave said...

As for all the talk of fraud and criminal behaviour, could you guys please stop? It is NOT a crime to run out of money as a company.
It is indispensable that companies can fail without personal liability to investors and managers. That is why more companies get started in the US than any other country.


Perhaps you should follow the link that I provided. The IRS doesn't like it when you don't pay them and will do anything (including putting you in prison and holding you personally liable) to get paid.

Dave!!!! Please give it up on the criminal charges. This is a start up story. We've had enough of criminalizing business failure in the US already.

I will give up on it when you disprove that the IRS doesn't prosecute people for failing to pay payroll taxes. Even if your own post telling me to give up on it, you yourself cannot categorically deny that criminal activity may have happened:
There is likely no crime here
Stomping your feet and telling me to drop it does nothing to disprove this:
Examples of Employment Tax Fraud Investigations - Fiscal Year 2009

airsafetyman said...

"There is likely no crime here"

I'm not so sure. Pumping up the order book with phony orders from DayJet to lure investors would seem to be criminal to me. DayJets touting their low costs of airplane aquisition as a factor in attracting investors would also seem criminal. Especially as they never paid for the airplanes in the first place. Dudes from Enron are in the pokey for much less?

fred said...

airsafety :

yes , you're right !

there is no crime , but when you consider that the three have been manipulating things , institutions and good business practices to lure customers, furnishers and bankers ...

sure it is not a crime ...

but that will be ULTIMATELY be supported by the community ...

Niner Zulu said...

I heard Eclipse sent all of it's employees home and told them to stay there "on administrative leave" until further notice.

I doubt the "further notice" will be good news.

Eclipse has effectively closed their doors, and are out of business until further notice.

The fat lady hasn't sang yet, but she's already warmed up and headed towards the stage.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
airsafetyman said...

When someone posted that a "training class" had been cancelled, I thought it was a pilot training class. Apparently it was an employee training class!
Why would Eclipse be conducting an employee training class with so much of the work force laid off, unless it was a scam having the taxpayers pay the trainees' salaries? Which the trainees will not now receive!

Turn-And-Burn said...

They're just trying to get rid of all the disloyal employees. Then will reopen with a new lean and efficient company.

FaithFul said...

Turn-And-Burn said...They're just trying to get rid of all the disloyal employees. Then will reopen with a new lean and efficient company.

It is the LOYAL employees WHO ARE STILL AT ECLIPSE. Everyone else has jumped ship. It is the LOYAL, BELIEVERS who will not get their paychecks. Who will not be paid for their LOYAL work these past two weeks.

julius said...

baron,

don't mix up EAC with any other start-ups.

As you stated, it is not an easy way - but there are some obligations: No "Nimbus"-type orders,... you will know it better than me. How many stunts are acceptable?

Was there anything against any legal rules - we will see!

I think there are good reasons to believe VR, RP and perhaps ED already knew in 2006 that EAC needed a complete financial restructuring and that the FPJ had a wrong price tag!

Julius

Zed said...

Dave,

Until we know that Eclipse has missed their IRS commitments, and failed to comply with the many get healthy provisions in the law, it is premature to worry about the IRS.

A proven CFO tactic to buy time is to fence money for the taxes, and not pay salaries. The guvmint is happy and they leave you alone. If you overpay you get it back on April 15.

But, what they do in the next few days and weeks will be telling. They could restructure paydays for at-will employees, buying even more time. Lots of purely legal and well worn tools in the bag to stave off the reaper.

Right now, anyone not directly related and contributing to EASA is dross. Ability to mass produce is not a criterion during cert. If the few folks left can get that (includes paying IS&S for the s/w mods) then the investment remains a possibility.

Dave said...

Until we know that Eclipse has missed their IRS commitments

You are right. There are many things besides this we don't know. Because we don't know things is not a reason to categorically close the doors on them being an impossibility. Until we know things for sure, I'll leave that line of inquiry open.

Dave said...

They're just trying to get rid of all the disloyal employees

What a huge insult you give to all the employees who stuck with Eclipse through thick and thin.

fred said...

zed

i would almost agree with you ...

but the EASA come with a deferent :

you have to prove your ability to build to standards (EAC/Etirc CAN'T now) to maintain ( with what center?) and to guarantee it into times (need more $$)

Dave said...

Does anyone know if ETIRC got the licensing money from the Russians? Eclipse acted like they did. Any idea what would happen to the licensing money if Eclipse goes under without EASA?

anonymous avionics engineer said...

Loyalty be damned, most people still need to pay bills. My guess is that it is the STUCK people who are still at EAC.

Tell me, who in their right mind would hire ANY manager from EAC after being complicit in one of the largest attempts to circumvent the usual airworthiness inspections in the history of the US?

If I were an FAA type, the mere presence of certain names on a company employee roster would make me look 3 times as hard at the data presented.

Dave said...

Tell me, who in their right mind would hire ANY manager from EAC after being complicit in one of the largest attempts to circumvent the usual airworthiness inspections in the history of the US?

I would say the further up the food chain, the more responsible someone is, but most of the people at Eclipse are ones who are at the bottom of the food chain and aren't responsible for the shenanigans Eclipse engaged in.

Shane Price said...

New post up. Events will move quickly now, and I'll do my best to keep up.

Shane

Dave said...

This article might explain some of Eclipse's financial problems. Roel in his infinite wisdom has Eclipse being the main sponsor of a Dutch basketball team:
EclipseJet where Pieper also directs, is the main sponsor of Basketbalclub in Amsterdam.
Basketball Week is continuing despite problems sponsor
Here's the team's website showing Eclipse as a "strategic sponsor":
Amsterdam Basketball
Now we know where some of the money went...to Roel's pet projects. How many people ordered an Eclipse because Eclipse was a strategic sponsor of a Dutch basketball team?

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Where is Roel sailing this weekend?