Sunday, September 28, 2008

ECLIPSE AVIATION DISCLOSES DETAILS OF RUSSIAN PLANT


Albuquerque, New Mexico - September 28, 2008 – Last week Eclipse Aviation announced financing by the Russian State Bank to build a factory in Ulyanovsk, Russia to assemble the Eclipse 500 Jet. CEO Roel Pieper said, “Today we are pleased to provide details on our new and exciting Russian venture.”

The plant manager for this state-of-the-art facility is newly-hired Vladimir Kochoff, a retired Russian Navy Admiral. “There has been some little confusion about the relationship between Albuquerque and Ulyanovsk and I would like to mostly clarify this here, now today,” said Kochoff.

“Eclipse has described how the components of the jet will be packaged in a ‘kit’ and sent to Russia for final assembly. Our crack team of Russian specialists travelled to remote Northern New Mexico to somewhat finalize the details. They found that the reusable shipping container and shipping costs to transfer the kit halfway around the world were very expensive.” stated Kochoff.

“We eliminate those costs by spending a few more hours, completing the aircraft and we fly the ‘kit’ to Russia,” he continued. “The sky will finally be darkened by the Eclipse. If you step outside your house in Bangor, Maine at six o’clock every evening, you will see two or three contrails – those are Eklipse-Kits on their way to the homeland.”

“At the Ulyanovsk factory is where the real work begins,” said Admiral Kochoff. “Russians read news that aircraft had problem with fasteners so we took action. First the little plane does not look very Russian with too many flush rivets so we drill all those out and replace them with button head rivets. Now it look beautiful. Also no global airplane should have English fasteners so we replace with metric screws and bolts. We pick the closest size and you just have to turn the screwdriver or wrench harder.”

“We also read about many, many problems with Avio avionics. This does not surprise us if you would know the meaning of the word ‘avio’ in the Russian language. We replace all of this with tried and proven Russian electronics. This also improves the operation in known icing in cold Russian winter as the vacuum tubes provide useful heat.”

Kochoff continued, “We tinkered with the engine controls to expand the range for fuel usage for economical operation. Since trans-fats have been banned in many United States cities we see Eclipse operating costs coming way down, but it also is difficult to find good French fries in States. I set the FADEC myself and, if it is a liquid composed mostly of carbon and hydrogen we can go.”

“Finally, Russian government has asked us to add hard points under the wing so external stores can be carried. They are sending some Eclipse jets to Georgia but we do not know why.” concluded Kochoff.


As some of you will no doubt have realized, Black Tulip has been writing again. I really like the bit about 'vacuum tubes', as I've done quite a lot of work myself with 'valves' and can attest the heating benefits they bring to a cold workshop.

Can I also thank you all for your kind words over the past week. My next post will now benefit from a lighter touch, as my mood this week was a bit dark....

Shane

234 comments:

1 – 200 of 234   Newer›   Newest»
Jeff Bethel said...

Baron, per your previous post, “I would not hire these guys if they were the last avionics engineers in the world.”:

Being in the same small group for a number of years, I worked directly with both Dewey Colvin and Steve Krattinger at Eclipse.

They are (by far) two of the most talented, hardworking and dedicated individuals that I have ever met in the industry.

They, and a few other dedicated individuals like them, are the only reason that anything at all was accomplished at Eclipse.

Jeff Bethel - Aspen Avionics Inc Co-Founder

airtaximan said...

jeff...


any insight into how they screwed the pooch so badly over there?

Not Colvin or Krattinger... EAC

thanks

fred said...

bt :

a retired Naval admiral ???

are suggesting EA500 will make a good submarine (on its way to become an anchor!) ???

now , i understand why Mr gad is around ...! ;-))

fred said...

as for the hard-point under wings , due to limitations ...

the "Divine Wind" pilots (Kamikaze) carry about 2 hand grenade at each flight but rarely succeed dropping more than one at a time ...

Shane Price said...

Snippet time.

Position holders/depositors are getting very restless. Seems EAC are playing 'hardball' with them, in an effort to avoid bankruptcy proceedings.

I gather that this is now the 'company line' to anyone owed money. The old 'there's no point in going to court as you will lose everything' argument, used by dodgy businesses since time immemorial.

However, there are several ways to nail these people. Here in Ireland, company directors have been held personally responsible for debts when their actions were shown to have been perverse or fraudulent.

I'm sure it's the same in other European countries, and can't be unheard of in the US.

Another snippet. Seems there was more than one bidder was interested in the DayJet fleet, but one of them can't seem to get a straight answer from Ed.

This reinforces my opinion that the 27 FPJ's grounded at Gainsville, FL last Friday week actually belong to EAC. After all, if Ed owned the fleet, you'd think he would be keen to flog at least a few, wouldn't you?

Fred,

Look carefully at how 'we' would pronounce 'Kochoff'...

Finally, I'm happy to welcome Jeff Bethel to the blog. He goes back a long way in this whole saga and can probably illuminate where a few of the bones are buried.

So, if he has a high professional opinion of Dewey and Steve, we should all listen carefully.

Shane

fred said...

shane :

you're right about "dirty businessman" ...

In France as soon as something is fraudulent in a BK , the CEO loses his right to form an other or to be part of a board ...

if the BK is "regular" you loose your right for up to 5 years ...

i don't know about other U.E. countries , but since it is coming from "Good Old Code Napoléon" ( a basis for legal system that was in its time very much in advance with its time and as served as example in many countries ...)
something more less on the same way should/would exist ...

i am quite sure it is the case in Belgium , Nederlands and Luxembourg !

eclipso said...

I'm trying to research it, but I think, since so many deposits were transferred interstate, perhaps a couple of depositors can show not only a breech of contract, but maybe even wire fraud. Or at least enough to start a federal probe.
Because I'm no longer in NM, I don't know what can be done, but if enough NM taxpayers wrotr to their congressmen and media, maybe something would happen before this POS gets out of the country.
I still feel Vern, Peg, Ed, Bill Richardson and anyone one else at the top level should be investigated and held accountable.Roel should be denied access to the US....just me thoughts on these thugs

eclipso said...

sorry for the typos, Gad...just feeling like Eddie Chiles again

Dave Ivedorne said...

a retired Naval admiral ???

are suggesting EA500 will make a good submarine (on its way to become an anchor!) ???


Fred -

In the previous thread, somebody suggested that Christopher Columbus would have preferred an FPJ over the Nina, Pinta & Santa Maria for his voyage of accidental discovery.

My first thought was that the distance was too great, and the FPJ would have been pressed into submarine duty. Just a suspicion: it wouldn't have done very well...

Pink, blue, yellow, white, or tan?
DI

Dave said...

However, there are several ways to nail these people. Here in Ireland, company directors have been held personally responsible for debts when their actions were shown to have been perverse or fraudulent.
I'm sure it's the same in other European countries, and can't be unheard of in the US.


It is called Piercing The Corporate Veil (and separately there is holding ETIRC/Roel personally liable, which that can be done without piercing the corporate veil):
Wikipedia Entry On Piercing The Corporate Veil
Wikipedia Entry On Respondent Superior (a potential defense)
WisBar article with some parts relevant
I do think that Eclipse/ETIRC has done many things to open itself up to this, but ulitmately it would be up to the US courts and most likely other courts as well as to if it actually would happen and there would be any teeth with the judgments.

Black Tulip said...

If a company goes bankrupt, the transfer of assets out of the company just beforehand receives great scrutiny. A bankruptcy referee will examine these transactions closely, looking for ‘fraudulent conveyance’ – sweetheart deals that violate the rights of other creditors.

TBMs_R_Us said...

since so many deposits were transferred interstate, perhaps a couple of depositors can show not only a breech of contract, but maybe even wire fraud

Repeated pattern of interstate wire fraud = mail fraud = criminal enterprise = RICO

RICO can be charged in civil action = trebled damages

airtaximan said...

Hey Shane,

unless the transfer of the Dayjet planes were protected under an NDA (kidding of course)...

Why do you suspect they belong to EAC? How did this work?

Shane Price said...

ATman,

Several sources at (or about) EAC and DayJet.

1. EAC source(s) complain that DayJet 'owes' up to $50 million, adding to the problems there.

2. DayJet sources tell me that EAC provided what are known as 'buyback' terms to the finance company.

3. Someone clearly instructed that the fleet be flown to Gainsville and parked next to the EAC facility there.

This is where I express my opinion. If I was the finance company boss holding title to 27 aircraft where the lessor had shut down and the company that built them had given me a buyback, I'd exercise it.

I'm not saying it's actually happened. But I am putting two and two together here, and getting pretty close to four. Remember, the bits of info are from multiple, unconnected sources.

I'll put it another way:-

What would you think, if you had all that information?

Shane

Dave said...

EAC source(s) complain that DayJet 'owes' up to $50 million, adding to the problems there.

Eclipse had better not complain too loudly about the creditworthiness of their order book or else it might raise questions as to how solid the order book is. Of course we've known for a long time their order book was bad, but things like this could help everyone else see it that way too. By the way, has Roel shown that he has the financing to pay for the 200+ orders that he made and has continued to use his own orders to hype Eclipse?

TBMs_R_Us said...

Dave,

Following on your logic all along, Roel, being CEO of Eclipse, could just agree that EAC will finance all of the aircraft that ETIRC has put on order. Credit good!

Deep Blue said...

Guys (and Gals):

Are things ever going to normalize at this company?

I'm beggining to think that (we're)fools for spending even a minute per day on this absurd company.

A new proposal:

"The Future of Aviation" Blog.

Much more productive.

Dave said...

Are things ever going to normalize at this company?

Hard to say. Roel was supposed to be different from Vern, but if anything, Roel is even worse. I think the longer Eclipse acts ridiculous, the harder it will be for things to normalize. Perhaps we'll have our answer on 11/1/08. Just look and see what happened to SCO (that Ed had been affiliated with by leading the shakedown of IBM for billions of dollars, which failed), which hasn't stopped acting ridiculous - it is in BK and a once great company is both a shell of its former self as well as a laughingstock.

Black Tulip said...

Deep Blue,

Guilty as charged. After an absence, I spent fifteen minutes this morning writing about Eclipse. I can’t say it was productive.

How about new turboprop engines or geared turbofans as fuel-efficient propulsion systems? Will they find their way to general aviation? The PT-6 and TPE-331 are dated but still don't burn much kerosene compared to 'jets'.

Oops, off topic as this is about Eclipse.

sphealey said...

> are suggesting EA500 will make a
> good submarine (on its way to
> become an anchor!) ???

Well, here is a possible use for surplus E500s:

http://www.citymuseum.org/phototour.html

(no way to direct link, but if you go to the Photo Tour and click around you will find it)

Of course, if every children's museum in the US gets one of these Bob Cassily (founder of the City Museum) might get a bit peeved. And when he gets peeved he tends to take action...

sPh

baron95 said...

Jeff Bethel - Aspen Avionics Inc Co-Founder

Jeff, since you started and now run a startup avionics company that in a very short time has managed to deliver a hot and very focused new product, I am totally inclined to accept your opinion of these folks.

My gut tells me that the results should have been way better, even with upper management negative interference, but, given what you and others have posted, I'll just shut up about this.

I greatly admire your company and the EFD family of products.

I wish you continued success and I'm hnored that you choose to share your opinions here with us.

Black Tulip said...

Jeff,

Can you share with us the number of systems shipped or 'iron gyros' yellow-tagged and put on the shop shelf?

baron95 said...

Shane,

It sounds to me like you are backpadling big time on your affirmation that "the 27 DayJet planes now belong to Roel".

If you were just speculating (which is fine), please just come out and say it. You threw the blog into a 200-post detour trying to figure out how it could be.

There are MANY other plausible explanations and to why the planes were all flown to Gainsville - including the obvious one, that it is the closest EAC facility to DayJet's area of operation.

baron95 said...

BT said ... How about new turboprop engines or geared turbofans as fuel-efficient propulsion systems?

Well, RR is making a lot of noise for their RR500 small turboprops - it has to be the ugliest aviation engine in history, but they are claiming SFC of 0.59 which is only about 50% more than the best GA piston engines (IO-550 operating LOP - and yes, it is better than the diesels). If they can manage that, it could find its way in small GA frames.

Shadow said...

Roel doesn't own the airplanes, but then again neither does DayJet.

baron95 said...

Dave said ... It is called Piercing The Corporate Veil ...

There is no chance at all of this happening in a company like Elcipse, with external investors, a borad, and a founder/CEO that got fired. As a matter of fact, being fired made Vern bullet proof.

Unless you can prove that yu were a victim of fraud perpetrated by an individual (Vern or Pieper) - and failure to execute is not fraud - you have no claim against any individual at Eclipse. For it to be fraud, you'd have to show that Vern or others that made a personal promise to you had no intention od delivering on the promise and that they never tried to deliver and that you substantially relied on those fraudulent promisses (e.g. to buy an Ecipse). Good luck with finding a lawyer that would take that case on contingency.

Dave Ivedorne said...

baron95 said...

BT said ... How about new turboprop engines or geared turbofans as fuel-efficient propulsion systems?

Well, RR is making a lot of noise for their RR500 small turboprops - it has to be the ugliest aviation engine in history


Considering that it creates competition for the PT6, with the downward pricing pressure that represents to customers, the RR500 might be considered the most beautiful aviation engine in recent memory. Likewise with the M601 - GE buying Walter is nothing but good news.

Would you like some more whine with that prop?
DI

Dave Ivedorne said...

If you were just speculating (which is fine), please just come out and say it. You threw the blog into a 200-post detour trying to figure out how it could be.

Baron, I love ya, man - but Shane's contention may have caused you a big detour; just don't lump the rest of us in that with you. I understood plainly enough that it was unconfirmed rumor.

-----------------------------------

"the 27 DayJet planes now belong to Roel"

Roel doesn't own the airplanes, but then again neither does DayJet.


It used to be so easy; prior to this year's Airventure, if we wanted to talk about Eclipse - but said "Vern" instead - no issues were clouded up.

We no longer have that luxury. "Roel" is a monster of a different sort. Roel may be CEO of EAC, but he is also CEO of several different companies named ETIRC - any of which must be considered to be competing with EAC for precious bodily fluids. As far as we know, the only "craft" of any sort that Roel owns is a racing yacht.

As far as a couple dozen possibly repossessed aircraft are concerned, I belive that there are four parties:

EAC - A company that pretended it could mass produce a jet with sub-dollar-per-mile DOCs,

Dayjet - A company that pretended it could revolutionize air travel,

Dayjet Leasing - A company that pretended it could pay for Dayjet's little birds, and last but not least,

A Leasing Underwriter ( name unknown ) - A company that came up with real live money so the pretend leasing company could purchase jets from the pretend manufacturer for use by the air taxi outfit with the pretend business model.

From the sound of it, the Real Live outfit got some sort of buyback guarantee from the pretend manufacturer before providing cash to the pretend lessor of aircraft for the pretend revolution in point-to-point transport. Upon the revolution no longer being televised, Real-Live-Co chose to exercise its guarantee.

Easy as pie.

Would you like that a la mode?
DI

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
baron95 said...

DI said ... Likewise with the M601 - GE buying Walter is nothing but good news.


I agree. But seriously dude, have you seen the RR500 prototype? They painted it old-generator-green - the thing looks like an elevator motor. Need to add some sizzle and over hype it - they need to hire Vern. ;)

baron95 said...

DI said ... Upon the revolution no longer being televised, Real-Live-Co chose to exercise its guarantee.

Easy as pie.


And what makes you think that Eclipse that is either out of money or in severe cas hconservation mode would fork up $27M or so the the "Real Live" outfit, in exchange for a pile of aluminum?

fred said...

D.I.

#In the previous thread, somebody suggested that Christopher Columbus would have preferred an FPJ over the Nina, Pinta & Santa Maria for his voyage of accidental discovery. #

geee

that would be some kind of real "disruptive" stuff ..

a major break into the continuum Space/Time , even Einstein bones must be shaking of envy in his grave ....

some kind of : i don't like my grand-father , so i invent a time-machine , go back to his childhood time and kill him ...

but then , how can i exist ? ;-)

i nearly forgot , we are talking about EAC ...
so expect anything ; dream of the best ; get ready for the worst !

fred said...

9Z

perfect !

as one knows : in order to hide the sour taste , LOTS of sugar is needed ...

you delivered a "low sweet" one ...kind of stuff not for fainting ones or girlie ...! ;-))

fred said...

baron :

#And what makes you think that Eclipse that is either out of money #

WHAT do you need to understand ?

they are either in "cash starved mode" or in "faith denial mode"

in one case , they don't have a clue as how to keep the plot going on for an other week ...

in the other case , they are blatantly ripping-off their customers (past , present and future = past : they got a thing worth a cuckoo ; present : are they refunded at will ? (good firm refund gladly = 1 customers lost and refunded w/o problems =10 new customers that won't have to feel being ripped-off); future : who could be Stupid or Gullible or Mad enough (or any combination of those terms) to loose (at this stage , it is not anymore a question of RISKING but of LOOSING !) more than 1 cent on such ?

in both cases , the final curtain is going to fall pretty soon ...

never heard of the situation : " the battle stopped by lack of combatants ..." ?

Dave said...

There is no chance at all of this happening in a company like Elcipse, with external investors, a borad, and a founder/CEO that got fired. As a matter of fact, being fired made Vern bullet proof.

It is like you either didn't follow my links or just took bits and pieces of the links into a form that doesn't make sense. If you had followed my links, you'd see that having external investors (particularly active ones) is actually one of the ways that one pierces the veil to take action against them. Also by the way, I don't see Vern as a good target because he doesn't seem to have that many assets so even if you win, it really doesn't mean much.

Unless you can prove that yu were a victim of fraud perpetrated by an individual (Vern or Pieper) - and failure to execute is not fraud - you have no claim against any individual at Eclipse. For it to be fraud, you'd have to show that Vern or others that made a personal promise to you had no intention od delivering on the promise and that they never tried to deliver and that you substantially relied on those fraudulent promisses (e.g. to buy an Ecipse).

Again it is like you either didn't read the links or just selectively took bits and pieces to then come up with something wrong. Personal Liability doesn't Pierce the Corporate Veil nor defeat Respondeat Superior, but is a separate cause of action not requiring the corporate veil to be pierced.

Good luck with finding a lawyer that would take that case on contingency.

I agree. I personally think a court would allow action to be taken against ETIRC (thereby piercing the corporate veil), but even with the veil pierced there's a couple of problems:
* ETIRC doesn't exactly seem to have a lot of assets to seize
* ETIRC is a foreign corporation located in another country and even with a US judgment and if ETIRC had sufficient assets, you'd still have to enforce it in another country
I think action could be taken against ETIRC (and even potentially against Roel, but I see that as far less likely), but piercing the corporate veil against ETIRC and ten cents wouldn't buy you a cup of coffee and as such it would take a lot of legal maneuvers along with long odds to the point where few attorneys would take it on contingency.

fred said...

baron

i agree with you on this :
(do i really need to seek doctor advice ? ;-) )

#As a matter of fact, being fired made Vern bullet proof.
Unless you can prove that you were a victim of fraud perpetrated by an individual (Vern or Pieper) - and failure to execute is not fraud #

true !

as much that blunt stupidity cannot be sentenced in court ...!

to take on EAC for failing on so many things would be like shooting in a crate of dynamite four feet away ...

first EAC ( ripping-off ? )
then DayJet ( strange deals ?)
Then Etirc (misappropriation ?)
Then FAA ( invisible hand of ...?)
then Banks(diligence to check?)
Then Gov. ( throwing $ into pit?)
Then SEC (real or fake status ?)
then ...
then ...
then ...

seems like opening the Pandora box to me ...

so it is going all in one go (very doubtful , have you ever seen any political accepting a blame ?)
or Individuals within EAC , but on an Individual point of view = there is nothing really to blame them for , except Roel : but i doubt anything or anyone is going to track him down in his native dutch polders

so , yes , it is so obvious that nothing can be really done that if they did it on purpose , it wouldn't be much different ...!!

fred said...

dave :

you are probably right on a corporate level ...

but it is a question of what kind of limits can you rule with peoples who don't have limits ?!!

so i think that the corporate responsibility is gone to sewage long ago ...

WhyTech said...

"I agree. But seriously dude, have you seen the RR500 prototype? They painted it old-generator-green - the thing looks like an elevator motor. Need to add some sizzle and over hype it - they need to hire Vern. ;)"

They dont need to over-hype it. It has a pedigree that speaks volumes for itself: RR250 series with 200 million fleet hours on 30,000 engines over 40+ years. Its beautiful to me!Trust in RR!

WhyTech said...

"Its beautiful to me!"

Some have described RR turbines as resembling a garbage can with the garbage attached to the outside. It all depends on what one is used to. Too many are stuck in the piston world and anything that doesnt look like and IO-550 looks strange to them.

Dave Ivedorne said...

And what makes you think that Eclipse that is either out of money or in severe cas hconservation mode would fork up $27M or so the the "Real Live" outfit, in exchange for a pile of aluminum?

A court decision for specific performance, and nothing short of it - which obviously hasn't happened yet - but should be trivial to obtain if a valid contract exists that spells out the terms. Which gets us back to the "value" of dealing with Eclipse. If I make a promise, I keep it - I hope the same is true for you. If Eclipse made a promise - hire an attorney.

Would you like to try our res judicata side salad?
DI

julius said...

Fred,

bonjour!

Looking out of my window:
1800 RADZ BR BKN004 BKN010 11/10
no weather for a FPJ!

The visibility is just like RP's "informations":
- ETIRC aviation:
The craft will be produced by Ulyanovsk jets plant which is currently being built by Luxemburg’s ETIRC Aviation. To date some $150m has been invested into the plant.

The plant is to produce the first 50 jets by the end of 2009.

- ETIRC aviation:
VEB announced that it expects to finance the project in full, with a total value of $205 million. VEB and the Ulyanovsk region administration will be among the shareholders of the enterprise....
Production in the factory located at the Ulyanovsk-Vostochny International Airport is expected to begin in 2010....

There are no explanations, no near-term milestones! That's the official way of creating rumors and headcount reductions.

Latest FAA cert still pending or deferred (like DayJets orders), EASA cert depending on FAA cert of "complete" FPJ (AvioNG 1.6/ Gavio/ solution of ADs and speeds)...
Is UBS still looking for investors?
Is UBS paid according to costs or success?

An European airtaxi operator might ask:
When will I get my complete plane (please s/n 100+ from Uly), where are the support and training centers...
Is it in 2011 or 2012?
Then there is no need to go to the bank..who will except a business plan on a jet that is not there?

The Russian FPJ will become the FPJ NT.

The weather in Uly:
21008G11MPS 8000 SCT033 BKN100

Cross wind!

Julius

P. S.: RP is waiting that the remaining bigger airports (260 of 330) get their ILSs

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

D.I.

# If Eclipse made a promise - hire an attorney. #

i would suggest :

you made contracts with EAC , did business with them ???

don't look for attorney , but for brain transplant : faster and less messy ...

as probability of success = they are the same ...! ;-))

fred said...

Gruß Gott , Julius !

yes , definitely too many version of the same story to make any sens ...

if one put into perspective what Etric/lux. publish and what Etirc/RU (Nikolay Nikiforov) publish ...

the discrepancies become so obvoius and "comical" !

#There certainly is a Russian capital share but Russian shareholders of the joint stock company haven't been announced yet. I just can say that the plant will be managed by the Russians. At first American experts* from Eclipse Aviation will consult the managers, and the assembly team will be of local origin; the number of employees will constitute some 1500** persons by 2012***.

The plant in Ulyanovsk will essentially copy the production process in Albuquerque****. The plant in the US is currently producing 1 aircraft per day*****. The plant in Ulyanovsk is planned to produce some 800 aircraft per year.

To avoid the difficulties at the launch of production all aircraft components will be sent as kits from the USA. Engines which are made in Canada and wings which are made in Japan will be delivered to Russia directly from these countries in order not to generate a complex logistics system. #


* American Experts ?? the one who made the production look like a joke ?

** wow !! that much ? do they intent to have FSW made by Russkiis having their hands heating each others by friction ?

*** the plant will produce in 2009 , but will be staffed in 2012 ???

**** copy ABQ ? so everything is saved !!! ;-))

***** in dreams ?


and the story about kits seems to be only for a start ??? so ABQ is closed as soon as UL is fully producing ??? once again , same story , different versions depending on who is supposed to hear it !!!


as you said ...
infos not check-crossing themselves , different versions not according each others , amount invested or/and to be invested changing every now and then ...

sounds really like a big bunch of BS !!

Orville said...

ALBUQUERQUE JOB FAIR - OCTOBER 3RD

Representatives of Piper Aircraft will be interviewing at the
Hyatt Place Albuquerque Airport, located at 1400 Sunport Blvd SE.

To be considered for an interview, please send a resume to jobs@piper.com or call
772-299-2080 by October 2nd. Please include “ABQ Job Fair” in the subject line of your e-mail.

INTERMEDIATE, SENIOR AND LEAD ENGINEERING OPPORTUNITIES INCLUDE:
Airframe Design
Stress Analysis
Electrical and Avionics Design
Mechanical Systems
Powerplant Design
Manufacturing

Zed said...

Regarding DayJunk Aircraft in Gainseville ...

Seems logical regardless of who owns them for several reasons:

1) DJ needed to park them somewhere, so either their leased space at GNV or BCT.

2) DJ has had 16+/- jets parked at GNV since May 08, so either move the remaining 11 there, or those 16 to BCT.

3) IF a situation developed where the aircraft were grounded yet needed to get to GNV for alteration, after the recent Congressional reaming, how likely would the FAA be to issuing 11 one-time-flight authorizations?

Black Tulip said...

Regarding Piper's job fair - in happier days Eclipse engineers might be trying to sneak in through the Hyatt's back entrance. I suspect that will not be an issue on Thursday. The most popular quote will be, "Ah, you're here too."

Shadow said...

BT, I wonder how many Eclipse employees will be calling in sick on Friday.

Dave said...

New article on Eclipse:
Flight International: Eclipse Eclipsed

Then here's a real good new article that is an interview of Roel:
NMBW:Eclipse Aviation CEO Roel Pieper speaks
Of course Roel saying “Eclipse as a new company has never taken the time or effort to re-set itself" is completely false as that is why Eclipse hired Todd Fiero and brought in TPT:
Aviation Week:Eclipse Aviation Turns To Automotive Industry For Inspiration

Here's some other key bits from the latest Roel interview:
“We hope to start ramping back up in November,” he said. “It’s difficult to say how many employees we will re-hire, but in a few years I could see hiring many more than were laid off.”

“In Europe we see an order book at least as big, if not bigger, than in the U.S.,” Pieper said. “Our global order book will easily fill the production capacity at both our factories.”


Yeah right that Eclipse will "easily" have a demand for 2000+ units per year. Let's not forget what the Faithful had said about Vern's comparative meager production rate when it looked like Roel was the sane one:
“That seems very obtainable,” Casson said. “I never believed Raburn’s ridiculous promises of five planes per day.”
NMBW:Eclipse holds on to customer loyalty despite challenges

fred said...

and this one :

#Pieper said Eclipse is primarily focused on reinforcing its supply network because failure to receive key parts on time has crippled jet production in the past two years.#

who said that Roel was worse than Vern ?

at least Vern was blaming one supplier at a time ...

Roel blames ALL suppliers ...

everything is because of them ?
ok , i feel re-assured !

brain transplant i told you ...;-))

fred said...

# " Pieper said. "We're placing a much higher priority on establishing secondary sources and setting up better communications with suppliers. We want to know in advance of a breakdown in the supply chain so we can prepare for it and create inventory." #

deciphering :

we are so much late in term of payment , we have to look for others ...

or

the discount per volume of the past order-book is gone up in smoke , we have to decided if we are to pay more or fool some other
suppliers ...

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

# Investors have pumped more than $1 billion into Eclipse since it formed in 1998, but the company needs another $250 to $300 million in capital, Pieper said. #

Well done , Monsieur Shane , your calculation was right ...

so it is 1°:300M$ + 2°:205M$ + 3°:1300 M$ ... =
1 Billion 805 Millions ..
(1=cash to stay afloat;2=loan to build the RU plant ;3= money already wasted into project ;4= taking care of UNPAID bills ?)

with UNPAID BILLS to furnishers (+/-600M$ )

= 2 Billions 405 Millions

need to sell a real lot of @2.15m$selling price to start paying back ...

PLEASE ,someone to explain Roel a funny concept ( completely Disruptive )

R.O.I. = WHEN ?

fred said...

a simple calculation :

(what has already been wasted + what is needed) divided by (actual order-book) =

everything is fine ...

to make this a neutral ope. (taking consideration that they don't need to make any more profit , just to pay back what has been already burnt )

they need only to make a margin of : 925,000 US$ per plane ...

easy ... !!! ;-))

fred said...

at a 10% margin :
they need to sell an other ...

11800 planes ...

just to pay back what has been wasted ...

on one leg , no problem !;-))

Dave said...

Vern's plans for world domination:
1) Offer Avio NNG as standard equipment:
Pieper's NavJacket
2) Greatly reduce expenses with Roel's superdupercomputer:
Roel's Data Compression System
3) Sell thousands of jets per year!
4) Become PM of the Netherlands

fred said...

dave :

# Become PM of the Netherlands #

tssk ...tssk...tssk...!

Docteur-Président à vie (sounds really like African leader this way!) of the whole world ...

what ? it is too much ? ok ...

of the whole white world ...!;-)))

TBMs_R_Us said...

Dave,

Did you mean Roel's plan for world domination???

From the comments on the jacket:

Piep, Pieper piepst

Dave said...

I found this on the latest minutes. NM has loaned Lionsgate $77 million and only gotten back $4 million, yet they then loaned $15 million more:
On the matter of Lionsgate’s indebtedness to the State, Mr. Dekom explained that, over the course of a motion picture (Employee of the Month) and a television series (Wildfire), Lionsgate has borrowed more than $77 million from the State and has paid back $4 million, leaving a balance of approximately $73 million. He stated that they have also advanced $500,000 to the State against the State’s upside in Employee of the Month. The aggregate cost of this current television series is $30,550,000 and the loan is about 50% of the that total.
NM SIC June Minutes

fred said...

or just offer for free , a whole (working) Avio NG 3.102 for whomever has for name Mr Glloq

(this is a little pick for Monsieur Shane ... spell letters one by one in french ... ;-)) )

TBMs_R_Us said...

About Lionsgate:

An actor friend told me recently that the studios have cooled on using Vancouver as a filming location due to the fall of the dollar. Richardson has made some deals and 2 or 3 major studios are setting up shop in Abq. with major investments. I think some of what Richardson is done are tax incentive deals.

Maybe they can make a comedy about a Dutch crackpot getting Russians to invest in a scam aircraft manufacturer.

fred said...

tbm :

#Maybe they can make a comedy about a Dutch crackpot getting Russians to invest in a scam aircraft manufacturer. #

what a good idea to sink an other few hundreds M$ ...!

scratch ...scratch ... scratch on my head ...

thinking of it , i am not Mr Gad would like it that much ...

if they have to sell his favorite can of beans to pay all those fancy crap , he may become a bit grumpy ...! ;-))

Shane Price said...

Baron (and everyone else)

It sounds to me like you are backpadling big time on your affirmation that "the 27 DayJet planes now belong to Roel".

I prefer to say evolving, as in moving forward with what information is available, rather than 'back'.

Whom owns them is a moot point. Ed clearly has no further interest in them. Roel won't want them, regardless of the terms that Vern may have struck all those years ago when everyone was friends.

Right now, everyone knows they are up for sale. Going cheap. Real cheap. Latest incoming says that the instruction is now sell them fast. As an aside, one offer valued the FPJ's at LESS than $500k each.

So, I still suspect that someone at EAC gave a buyback to help DayJet 'aquire' the FPJ's. Will I ever be able to prove that? Probably. Am I really interested in trying? No, life is too short...

For it to be fraud, you'd have to show that Vern or others that made a personal promise to you had no intention od delivering on the promise and that they never tried to deliver and that you substantially relied on those fraudulent promisses (e.g. to buy an Ecipse). Good luck with finding a lawyer that would take that case on contingency.

I understand that promises were made, specifically on delivery dates, when the people making the promises KNEW there was no chance of doing it. And that proof of this is available, in writing.

You clearly are aware that these depositors and position holders are a) suffering real financial loss and b) being (mostly) fairly wealthy types are not short of a few legal friends to kick the process off.

To summarize, these people have motive (they are rather mad at EAC) and opportunity (they have not received the goods they paid for) They will move against EAC, in the short term.

Lets' agree that it matters not who or when people move against EAC, only that they CAN. That's what's going to be of concern to any potential investor in these turbulent times.

Lets' also agree not to be concerned about who owns the DayJet FPJ's, right now. A much more fruitful discussion would be a) who would BUY them and b) how much they should PAY.

What do you think?

Shane

Dave said...

Lets' also agree not to be concerned about who owns the DayJet FPJ's, right now. A much more fruitful discussion would be a) who would BUY them and b) how much they should PAY.

For the right price I think many would consider it, however, I think the right price is very low. These are high mileage early models full of bugs - a double whammy over and above whatever general problems there are with the Eclipse 500. I can see how it would appeal to commercial operators, but given the whammies, I'd see these better off going to low utilization private use. I also think lacking all the retrofits seriously dimishes their value - particularly with Eclipse not even knowing if the retrofits will ever happen. I also think that whoever considers buying should wait until November to see how much of a going concern Eclipse is and if whoever selling is pressuring for a real quick sale before then, I couldn't see it being wise going for more than a few hundred thousand each (essentially you'd be buying a lottery ticket) given all the unknowns and risks.

airtaximan said...

fraud...

first flight deposit call... with fj22 engines that never worked and would be in the garbage within weeks of receiving all the money - - did they know?

You bet they did..IMO

fred said...

#how much they should PAY. #

a little reminder of the basics :

in market economy , price of things are determined by few factors :

1° it is to be sold !

(like a house you're living in , even if you believe it has a value of XXX , if you're not ready to sell it value=0)

2° potential buyer have to be willing to buy !
(same considerations : if your house which you think has a value of XXX , if no one want to buy it , value=0)

3° this buyer has to be able to pay !
(if i want to buy your house at the value you think it has , if i cannot pay it , value =0 ! exactly where the madness of subprime did happen ...)

so if a Fpj is to be sold for less than 500K$ , then ITS REAL MARKET value is such ...

wake-up time is going to be difficult for the believers of the "value proposition "

how much is a ton of aluminium metal scrap , nowadays ? ;-)

Joe Patroni said...

".....how likely would the FAA be to issuing 11 one-time flight authorizations?"

It doesn't take a whole lot to get a Special Flight Authorization ("Ferry permit")....as long as both engines are installed (and running), the wing and tail is bolted on, and the primary flight controls are still attached (and work), they pretty much let you assume all the risk that you can stomach.....

Typically, they are issued to allow the airplane to be relocated to a maintenance facility. It's a way to legally fly an "unairworthy" airplane to maintenance (unless covered by an MEL, an airplane is considered unairworthy if installed equipment is not functioning).

Moving them to Gainsville makes sense, in that they are parked at the only shop that can work on them (and this assumes they remain open). How humid does Gainsville get? If it gets typical-Florida humid, unless they have an active program to keep those airplanes in some kind of working condition, all those state-of-the-art electronics are going to "go south" in a hurry.

ABQ might have made more sense....but a conspiracy theorist would add that it might have to do with Florida's bankrupcy laws, some kind of effort to keep Eclipse assets out of New Mexico. As I recall, isn't Florida state law "friendly" to bankrupcy filers?

As I learned in my divorce "Possesion is 9/10s ......." :)

As for EASA certification, don't make me laugh. The airplane isn't fully certified HERE yet. And who is going to engineer/implement the changes that those guys are going to insist on? I'm guessing that, like a lot of other people, the EASA folks are going to be "too busy" to get to it.

gadfly said...

fred, and friends

The “gadfly” has better things to do, than to be “grumpy” over people that purchase political power with taxpayers’ money . . . and if they have arthritis, they’ll have double trouble always looking over their shoulder to see who’s coming up from behind . . . seeking revenge, or attempting to take them away to prison. You’ll notice that many “politicos” are haunted by their actions, never remembering what “lie” they told to “whom”. With a morbid sort of curiosity, we watch the show, already knowing how the chase scene will end.

That may be little comfort to the many who have lost their jobs . . . and those who still hang on with great uncertainty . . . never knowing when the axe will fall.

gadfly

(Oh, by the way . . . someone mentioned that a dozen or so “little birds” parked outside at ABQ were damaged by a hail storm. If that be true, what an opportunity to go over each one with a magnifying glass, FROM the INSIDE, checking the condition of each and every “stir fried” weld, wherever the hail may have cause structural damage. This sort of thing cannot be safely pounded out without greatly increasing the possibility/probability of cracking.)

Deep Blue said...

I think Dave has the DJ aircraft valued about right; I would say they are essentially worth the current value of the engines, which in an orderly liquidation is no more than about 200K each.

gadfly said...

fred

Yes, I know it was only an attempt to make a point, but the serious answer about aluminum scrap price would make the “cost” of scrapping out a two-ton airframe about even with the return. In other words, if you could remove the guts, and sell the aluminum, it would bring about a dollar per pound . . . maybe. And I venture, it would probably cost almost that much to “remove the guts” . . . not counting the hazardous material disposal, etc. In other words, the plane is probably worth less than zero (minus the engines) for scrap.

gadfly

eclipse_deep_throat said...

LMFAO!!! they are all geniuses!!! their plan is to get the Federal Govt to buy all 27/28 planes!!! as soon as the bailout provision passes ...the bank can get rid of these "bad assets" and stick 'em with the govt to deal with. brilliant plan!!! better than bankruptcy.

what? the bailout bill didn't pass??? Sssssssssssssshit.
;-)

gadfly said...

“Fun things concerning the recycling of aluminum” . . . and other things:

April 2008 pure aluminum price was about $1.35 per pound. Aluminum soda pop cans may bring about 5 cents each, in some areas, for ½ ounce can ($1.60 per pound). Plus, of course, all the manpower and transportation costs, getting the dirty cans back to the aluminum producers. So, returning aluminum cans is a “political . . . touchy-feely” thing, heavily subsidized, like ethanol from corn. It has nothing to do with reality . . . except it makes some folks get the warm fuzzies.

Aluminum cans are a “known alloy”, so, even though they are returned at a loss, they can be “re-used” at little trouble, other than the higher price than just using pure “raw” aluminum. But an “aircraft” is made of many different alloys . . . easy thing at one time to just “throw it into the pot”, as it were, but no longer economical. And you can’t just remelt it, and make structural stuff . . . it’s an “unknown”, and not easy to sort out back into it’s original elements. (Don’t tell the tree huggers and politicians . . . Al Gore would not like it.)

When Detroit was making big statues and ornaments to hang on every available surface on cars, they used “pot metal” . . . anything they could throw into the “pot”, and melt at about the same relatively low temperature as aluminum . . . even door handles, etc. Pot metal, has been replaced with the many available plastics, made with that terrible substance called “oil” . . . in the end, using less “oil” to produce, etc., etc., . . . you get the point.

But methods are being developed to break down plastics and composites, through proprietary catalytic low temperature methods . . . extracting precious metals from circuit boards, carbon, and hydro-carbons, from composites, even “sweet crude” of “diesel fuel quality” from tires (about 1 ½ gallons per average car tire . . . plus re-usable steel and carbon. “gadfly” is not at liberty to speak more on this particular subject at this time . . . personally involved, you see).

This still doesn’t address the re-cycling of high-strength aluminum alloys . . . they still remain in a high-cost-to-produce area.

Steel remains the king in recycling . . . so make an airplane out of steel. It may not be very light and efficient, but you won’t have any trouble recycling it.

gadfly

Turboprop_pilot said...

Gad:

steel may be a bitch to stir fry though.

TP

Black Tulip said...

"...not at liberty to speak more on this particular subject at this time..."

Gadfly, good thing you dropped the subject before you got to Soylent Green.

gadfly said...

"Turbo"

Actually, the car you're driving is put together with much "less" than stir fried.

A funny thing happened many years ago in ABQ (come to think about it, a couple such things happened in ABQ concerning welding),the local APD had some squad cars made by "American Motors" (remember them?) . . . and one of their cars was involved in a moderate accident . . . and the car completely (almost) came apart. It seemed that about half of the spot-welds in the body were missing.

Then, somewhat later, the bus system used some buses made by . . . memory fails, but it was one of the major aircraft manufacturers (actually, I think I know, but don't wish to break open an old wound) . . . the rear third of the bus cracked clear through. Rather embarrassing, to lose your "rear" in ABQ . . . but prophetic of things to come in the aircraft industries.

gadfly

('Ever at your service!)

baron95 said...

Shabe said... Latest incoming says that the instruction is now sell them fast.

Shane you are doing it again. Latest instruction to whom? WHO OWNS the planes an is trying to sell them fast.

And of course it matters who owns the plane. If you don't know, just say so.

gadfly said...

Dark Blossom of the Nederlands

‘Funny thing about “Soylent Green” (. . . never saw the movie), but the corn crop depends on petroleum to make fertilizer . . . to grow all that wonderful corn, to turn into “white lightening”, with much less BTU’s per gallon, while the “run-off” pollutes “Old Man River” to “kill the fish” and “shrimp” in the “Gulf” where the “oil is pumped” to feed the corn that makes the white lightening that raises the cost of food for the cows that feed the workers that drive the trucks that carry the ethanol that lowers the MPG in our cars and trucks that carry the oil from the Gulf to make the white lightning that makes the fertilizer that grows the corn that makes the white lightning . . . seems I just passed that corner a couple turns back. I’m confused . . . ‘better get one of those GPS thingies that make the little jet get there and back, provided the stir fried welds hold.

gadfly

(‘Bout now, I’m getting hungry . . . if there were an “In-N-Out” close by, I’d order a Soylent Green wafer burger, “Double-Double, Animal Style” with fries, coffee, and maybe a vanilla shake . . . them that “knows” will understand . . . the rest? . . . what can I say!)

baron95 said...

To summarize, these people have motive (they are rather mad at EAC) and opportunity (they have not received the goods they paid for) They will move against EAC, in the short term.

Lets' agree that it matters not who or when people move against EAC, only that they CAN.


I don't agree with that assessment at all. All the current EA500 depositors and owners that we have come into contact have missed all the real chances to get out. They were, without exceptiong appologists for Eclipse, they accepted multiple price increases, they accepted incomplete aircraft delivered to them with no escrow, no guarantee, not even a due date for the IOUs, they signed deposit agreements giving Eclipse full rights to use the funds (again no escrow).

I think it is very, very fair to conclude that the remaining depositors and owners are all push-overs.

There ones that were not, already got out. I thin gunner and/or TP Pilot (if not them some other blogers here) were once EA500 and have gotten out at the first chance.

There is NO QUESTION in my mind that if the EA500 depositors had been more assertive, Eclipse would not have gotten away with treating them like this. They should have gotten together as a group and told Eclipse - "We will not take delivery of ANY incomplete aircraft without an escrow account set up to refund 25% of the plane's price if you don't complete the IOUs within 6 months and 50% if you don't complete them in 1 year." Had they done that, I'd be willing to be the plane would be finished now.

baron95 said...

Shane said ... Lets' also agree not to be concerned about who owns the DayJet FPJ's, right now.

Why? I don't agree.

1 - You brought it up, so obviously you think it is important.

2 - Who owns those planes is critically important to the owners.

For example, if EAC, does in fact own them, they may decide to upgrade all those 27 planes to final config ahead of all others, and sell them for full price after the upgrade. That would be horrible for the position holder - it would delay their retrofit and would severely devalue their planes.

Turboprop_pilot said...

while I'm absorbing a 777 point drop in the Dow, 8 1/2% drop in the S&P 500 (the S&P 425?), WaMu and Wachovia disappearing, the thought comes: "Do we really think UBS cares at all about raising funds for a nearly bankrupt toy plane company in NM?"

Turboprop_pilot

Dave said...

while I'm absorbing a 777 point drop in the Dow, 8 1/2% drop in the S&P 500 (the S&P 425?), WaMu and Wachovia disappearing, the thought comes: "Do we really think UBS cares at all about raising funds for a nearly bankrupt toy plane company in NM?"

They care inasmuch as they'd get a commission on the deal, however, they might see greener pastures elsewhere.

TBMs_R_Us said...

Here's another one????? Came across my inbox.....
----------------------------------------

We have been retained to raise capital for a company bringing a "disruptive manufacturing technology" to the VLJ (very light jet) aircraft market.
Targeted Funding includes:

- $50 million in equity raised through Private Placement.
- $150 million in additional capital including Senior Debt, Subordinated Debt and Equity as necessary.

In the event that your fund may not wish to consider a role, I would appreciate your thoughts and/or referrals to Investors or Lenders who, you think, may wish to explore this unique opportunity.

A highly experienced industry management team is directing the production of a line of executive jet aircraft which will be brought to the market at significantly reduced capital and operating costs. This dramatic sector change will be accomplished through the implementation of a revolutionary manufacturing methodology with an impact reminiscent of that caused by the introduction of the Model T Ford.

I welcome your enquiry and would be pleased to provide additional information.
Kind regards,

----------------------------------------

Can you believe it??? Is it UBS fishing for EAC? Or a whole new set of jokers?

baron95 said...

Watch how Ed, Vern, Roel will use the financial crisis as an excuse for why they failed. "We did everything right, things were fine, and then the financial crisis hit and messed up our plans, therefore we had to shut down." Just watch.

Deep Blue said...

TBMsrus:

It's probably Vern.

Shane Price said...

Baron,

On the subject of who 'owns' the DayJet FPJ's

1 - You brought it up, so obviously you think it is important.

2 - Who owns those planes is critically important to the owners.


Which owners?

I'm given to believe that a certain lender has ordered the sale, PDQ*, of ALL of these aircraft.

Do you mean current owners of the rest of the FPJ aircraft?

If you do, I can understand. Ken and his merry (ok, maybe not as happy as once they were) crew may now feel that paying $1.2 million for an aircraft now worth something like half that is a bit of an issue.

On the other hand, the finance company that says it's selling the DayJet fleet has several 'out's'.

1. Revert to EAC for a buyback (sorry mate, I'm still certain there is one) when they realize their losses.

2. Make a claim on their credit insurance policy.

3. Wait for the US taxpayer to bail them out.

OK, forget about option 3, at least until Thursday when Congress votes (like turkeys do for Christmas) again.

Did anyone notice that the Dow Jones closed 777 point lower today?

UBS, UBS, wherefore art thou, UBS?
(with apologies to William Shakespeare)

Shane
*PDQ = pretty damm quick

Dave said...

Targeted Funding includes:
- $50 million in equity raised through Private Placement.
- $150 million in additional capital including Senior Debt, Subordinated Debt and Equity as necessary.


This is approximately the amounts that DayJet raised.

This dramatic sector change will be accomplished through the implementation of a revolutionary manufacturing methodology with an impact reminiscent of that caused by the introduction of the Model T Ford.

Do people actually take this kind of hype seriously? It sounds like something you'd hear on the home shopping channel.

Shane Price said...

Ooops, I nearly forgot.

I'm told that on Friday last, Linear Air laid off half it's employees.

This pesky airtaxi business model is pretty hard to get right, don't you think?

Especially if you own FPJ's that won't perform over time.

Shane

Shane Price said...

And another thing...

The inbox has been 'interesting' on DayJet for the past week. Being otherwise occupied, I failed (miserably) to pass on a few gems. Herewith one of them:-

The reason why we parked all 28 planes outside of EAC's hangar is two fold.

1. DayJet pays for leases and ramp space in Boca Raton, and Gainesville. No need to do that anymore!

2. Ed was so pissed off at the lies, empty promises, and incomplete planes that EAC provides to us all. They never functioned as advertised.

DayJet has screwed their loyal customers badly. None of us are happy about how we were treated at the end, nor how our customers got the shaft. It's kind of like being thrown into a dumpster.


Pretty much sums it up, don't you think?

Shane

Shane Price said...

Did I mention that one of the Linear Air FPJ's had an emergency landing due to an elevator trim failure?

I really have failed as 'blog custodian' over the past few weeks.

Remind me to shape up, will you?

Shane

Dave said...

Did I mention that one of the Linear Air FPJ's had an emergency landing due to an elevator trim failure?

Wasn't that something that came up during the hearings?

Dave said...

I'm told that on Friday last, Linear Air laid off half it's employees.

This pesky airtaxi business model is pretty hard to get right, don't you think?


Jet Air Taxi Business

gadfly said...

Shane

Back when dinosaurs roamed Southern California, there was an "oil company" called "PDQ" . . . with the symbol of a "pelican". Their service stations were all over the Los Angeles area. They no longer exist. They claimed great things, but couldn't, in the "long haul", produce what they promised.

Ah, the examples of history . . .

gadfly

chickasaw said...

Gad,

This is the first time that I actually got dizzy reading one of your epistles.

gadfly said...

"chick . . . saw"

Yeh, me too!

gadfly

(When I was a kid, about "five years old", my Dad introduced me to one of your relatives . . . "Jig" . . . first time I ever cut my finger on a machine.)

(Yeh, it's been a long day.)

Shane Price said...

Dave,

The reports were of 'trim failures' but not ELEVATOR trim failures.

It's pretty hard to land a jet when it wants to stick it's nose in the air....

And yes, you are correct about 'jet' airtaxi, although I understand that they have 'retired' one of their Caravan's as well.

Oh, and another thought just strikes me. When 28 FPJ's hit the market, who benefits?

Not the private owners, like Ken and his friends.

Hardly EAC, who must compete with them for new orders.

So, if EAC don't control these planes, I have to ask, why don't they?

Come on Roel, tell us how you've failed, once again...

Shane

airtaximan said...

Baron,

"I don't agree with that assessment at all. All the current EA500 depositors and owners that we have come into contact have missed all the real chances to get out."

I hate to disagree... I firmly believe anyone who is just discovering that they have been defrauded many tmime, has a claim.
- by EAC regarding first flight
- by EAC regarding deliveries
- by EAC regarding price
- by EAC regarding modes, fixes, upgrades
- by EAC regarding wuality and safety - this one alone is huge - point to avionics failures and claim an unsafe unfit product, and you have an out, no matter what te timing is
- regarding jetincomplete statements - one tank of fuel at $5 and you have an out
- regarding maintence centers...
- "Judege: they said they had 2700 orders, and I relied on this huge demand, for my plane market value, residual value, the company reputation and sustainability, eyc... when I paid for my plane... it was a hoax!!!!"

Baron, I sincerely believe all bets are OFF regarding this POS... all the lies, schemes and hoaxes... and Pierper is only prolonging the agony - "your honor, they said they has $330Million and a new facotry... It was a HOAX, can I please have my pesos back and please put them all in jail"

gadfly said...

Shane

Somehow, it would seem that a trim failure, “sticking the nose in the air”, might be the least of trim failures.

As a kid, my Dad and I watched the “maiden flight” of the Lockheed “Constitution” (only two were built) coming in for its first landing (Burbank). It had way too much over-control on the elevators, “porpoised” over and over, as a crowd of thousands watched, as it landed from the eastern end of the runway (to the west), and finally got its feet on solid asphalt . . . and came to a safe stop. I’m sure that my Dad was figuring out how to design, or improve his cable tension regulators, that for the next fifty years . . . and to this day, would become the de facto standard on most US built multi-engine aircraft. But watching that huge plane on final was a high point in my young life.

gadfly

AvidPilot said...

Meanwhile, back at the other blog, Ken is trying to talk his comrades out of taking legal action against Eclipse.

The other blog is even censoring some of the criticism coming from disgruntled position holders who can't get back their deposits.

My heart goes out to the guys who have lost so much money on their dream (with the exception of cheerleaders Mike and Ken, who take every opportunity to spread their BS so that they can keep plane values up....good luck on that one!).

airtaximan said...

sometimes, the ones looking for "a real bargain" are the MOST deserate... and can serve as a sort of early warning system, because they are so "on the edge".... the most fragile act on the fringe and present signs.... desperation....

baron95 said...

What is an enquiry? Is that how inquiry is spelled across the pond?

baron95 said...

Shane said ... I'm given to believe that a certain lender has ordered the sale, PDQ*, of ALL of these aircraft.


That is a positive development in my view - it should set the pricing floor for the EA500. I think right now there is no pricing floor, and that is not healthy. It is better to know what the value is, even if very low, than not to know at all - see mortgage-backed securities for proof.

baron95 said...

AT said ... I hate to disagree...

Perhaps you didn't understand the point I was trying to make. Shane stated that the EA500 owners/depositors are "Mad as hell and won't take it anymore", have the means and the disposition to sue, etc...

I was countering that I don't believe so. Not that they don't have the right to, but that they have the disposition to.

The ones that knew when to fold it like Gunner, etc, already walked when Eclipse tried to walk over them the first or second time.

The ones that remain, I'm sorry to say are push-overs and Eclipse apologists. They let Eclipse treat them like their lap bitch (I don't know another expression for that).

Deposit - no escrow. Failure to deliver on time - no compensation. Fake FJ-22 flight to loc in deposits - no challenge. Calling 60% deposits on fake schedule - no demand for money back, instead let Eclipse keep their money. Delivy of incomplete Jet - pay full price, no time frame or penalties for IOUs - that is fine with us.

Come on - how many times can some one be screwed over and still bend over for more. People that behave like this, rarelly have the disposition to "fight". These people have taken it and come back for more.

I hope I made myself clearer now.

P.S. I am NOT blaming the victims here. This is the battered women syndrome - when you get caught in it is is really hard to get out and/or fight back. Eclipse is the guilty party here. Yet, some wmen do get out, some kill the abusers, some stay in for more beating (not their fault). I think it is obvious what group the current EAC customers belong to.

baron95 said...

AvidPilot said...
Meanwhile, back at the other blog, Ken is trying to talk his comrades out of taking legal action against Eclipse.


If that is true, I'll change my opinion of Ken, of being an enthusiastic, but honest supporter, to what Gunner claims - a person acting out of self interest trying to get others to continue the pyramid scheme to his gain. Sad. I'll post again here what the Diamond thierlert users group did shortly. All EA500 owners/dpositors should do the same ASAP.

baron95 said...

Attention Eclipse Owners and Position Holders: This is mandatory reading for you

You should follow on the footsteps of the Columbia and Diamond Thierlert Owners Group. They successfully organized, pooled money, hired a law firm, enabling owners to file their claims against the bankrupt firms as creditors. They exerted a lot of pressure on the Bankruptcy courts, FAA and EASA to enabled their planes to continue flying and to soften the blow of the loass of value/utility in the bankruptcy.

You would do well to read the entire site and copy everything they did PRONTO.

They did (Columbia) and are (Thierlert) fighting for example to prevent the B court to discharge warranty and support contractual obligations on a reaorganization sale.

It is hard to believe that you (the E500 Club) haven't done that yet. But better late than never.

AvidPilot said...

Baron95,

I wasn't saying our friend Ken had an ulterior motive. Maybe he still thinks Eclipse has a chance, that Eclipse should be given that chance, and that a lawsuit is not the best way to bring about a positive ending.

Still, encouraging club members to have patience with Eclipse, not sue, and NOT advertise their planes at this time is, in my opinion, very bad advice.

baron95 said...

avid pilot said...Still, encouraging club members to have patience with Eclipse, not sue, and NOT advertise their planes at this time is, in my opinion, very bad advice.

I agree. I too hope Eclipse will pull through, but there is no reason not to act as a group to protect their interests - It may actually enhance their chances to be a party to any procedings.

Perhaps Ken, like Vern, believe that if "only there was no critic blog" and if "only there were no depositor lawsuits" then all would be all right - no it would not. Critic comments and lawsuits are a symptom, not a cause of Eclipse's disfunctionality (I think I invented that word).

just zis guy, ya know? said...

baron95,

Which bankruptcy court do you suggest that the Eclipse Owners Club petition?

baron95 said...

Ziz said... Which bankruptcy court do you suggest that the Eclipse Owners Club petition?

Well, at this time, they would not be petitioning a BK court as there is no Bankruptcy. If Eclipse files, it would be Eclipse's choice anyway.

At this time, the Eclipse Owners and Depositors, should form a group/class, and file a law suit "strict compliance" with the purchase/depositor agreement, seeking damages for delays, a defective product claim, and punitive damages for negligent or intentional breach of contract, etc...

There are three obvious choices of where to file: a) State where Eclipse is incorporated (is it Delaware), b) Eclipse's principal place of business (NM), c) State where the Eclipse Owners and Depositors Group incorporates.

If it were me, I'd incorporate the group in the most favaurable jurisdiction and the one that would cause the most pain and inconvinience (distance) to Eclipse. I.e. take the initiative, don't let Eclipse choose the battleground. That lawsuit may evolve into a BK proceding against Eclipse.

But that is just my $.02 an experience lawyer may come to a different conclusion.

baron95 said...

Oh, and the funny thing is, the Eclipse owners as a group, would have much deeper pockets than Eclipse - so guess who would be bitch slapping whom around?

The important thing is to file NOW, while Eclipse obviously has money as they are paying at least $10M/month is salaries. As for the court to force Eclipse to set money aside in escrow NOW. Wait too long and there won't be much left to sue.

baron95 said...

This is how EA500s are flying in Europe. This is a high-res picture of the EA500 Avio cockpit with the mods required to fy IFR in Europe. It includes two G430s (not 400s), a GTX330 for mode S/raffic, and a King ADF. Note: this is NOT Avio NG 1.5. This is old avio plus one off Garmins. This particular one is installed on N505EA (cn EX 500-106) which belongs to Eclipse.

Avio European Config

This is courtesy of airliners.net - if for some reason you can't see this without logging in, let me know and I'll post a slighty lower res version.

baron95 said...

And while you are at it, check out the tolerances and beautiful shape of the blades on the PW610-A....

just zis guy, ya know? said...

baron95,

Your plan would be a good one if the owners group wanted to try to force EAC into bankruptcy. Other than that, it would serve no real purpose other than enriching some lawyers.

If someone did force EAC into bankruptcy, the owners and deposit holders would be at the end of a long line of people with their hands out. By the time they reach the head of the line, there will be no money left. You can ask a bankruptcy court to enforce contracts, such as warranties, all you want, but if there is no money left, those contracts are moot. Banruptcy courts cannot create money where there is none, and they won't put unsecured creditors ahead of secured creditors.

I suspect that there enough secured creditors to consume all of EAC's assets, leaving nothing for the unsecured creditors.

So, while bloviation and chest pounding make make some feel better, it would not put any money into their pockets.

baron95 said...

And an interesting picture showing the bare cockpit and how the side-sticks convert stick movement to flight control deflection via cranks and rods.

fred said...

baron :

i don't think KennyBoy has in view his very own interests alone ...

more probably , it can be quite difficult to accept yourself as not as bright you thought and it can be even harder to acknowledge been "being done" ...

so the poor guy is probably not as bright as being not played by Vern and now has "feelings" to be looked at what he has been : a gullible trapped in quite uncomfortable bent over position ...

i feel that it make no real sens to sue Eclipse now ...

it should have been done long ago , now the fate is sealed , anyway ...

a bit like a chain-smoker that has been warned , 10 years ago, to quit by doctors : if he decided to keep on using only one match a day =fine !
but when the cancer strike : what point does it make to stop right away ? you're done , so keeping the bad habit or buying a few days/weeks by making yourself miserable (quiting ) only one question should be in mind :

What for ?

as you stated , the position holders have probably deeper pockets at the time being ...

so the only making a profit in this , would be the lawyer ... for a potential gain , at the best , marginal ...

i am not saying it is better !

just that now , it is quite understandable to consider the whole matter as "lost money" , not to spend a dime anymore onto , and who knows ? may be some surprise will come out ...

baron95 said...

Ziz said.... but if there is no money left, those contracts are moot.

You are missing the point. There IS obviously money - Eclipse has 1,100 ppl on payroll, they are paying electrical bills, some suppliers, etc. The time to act is NOW, while there is still some money. I am not convinced Eclipse would file for BK now based on a law suit from the owners. They clearly would not file if the owners had sued 6 months ago, right? Yes, the window may have closed, but, the only way to find out is to sue - test the system. There is NO DOWNSIDE to filing - none. 250 owners + 550 depositors. If 50% join that is 400 people. If each forks over $100, that is a $40,000 legal fund - you can do a lot with that in this case. At the very least, the Owners would have subpoena powers and be able to assess the real situation at Eclipse for themselves.

fred said...

Mr Gad :

thanks a lot for explanations on recycling aluminium ...

i believe that some "clever" are going to find out soon that "owning" something sometime is a pain in the bum ...

as a house = you have to keep and pay bills ...
as a car = you have to pay insurance and garage ...

for the Fpj , could you please be kind enough to tell us IF your Tire-Diesel can be use to make the Fpj turned into some kind of a bread-toaster ?
(since the only thing that seems to have some value on it are engines ...!)

if not , could you tell us if you have ever heard of a 2-tons-bottle-opener ??? ;-))

fred said...

Monsieur Shane :

#OK, forget about option 3, at least until Thursday when Congress votes (like turkeys do for Christmas) again.
Did anyone notice that the Dow Jones closed 777 point lower today?#

while the Former CEO of Mutual-Washington has made ONLY a mere 783.000US$ for each day of his former (now) job ...!

will they ever learn ?

just zis guy, ya know? said...

baron95,

No, I'm afraid you are the one missing the point.

There is a chance that if Eclipse gets the funding they are seeking that owners can get the upgrades they are waiting for. On the other hand, if the owners sue, the results could be:

a) The owners could lose the lawsuit. The owners would then have wasted the money they paid their lawyers.

b) The owners could win the lawsuit and get a judgement against Eclipse. Eclipse could pay the money, which would likely mean that Eclipse wouldn't be able to do the upgrades or produce any more airplanes. The owners would have some money (a sizeable portion of which would go to the lawyers), but would still have unfinished airplanes.

c) The owners win the lawsuit, and Eclipse responds by filing Chapter 11. The owners would end up with nothing (see my previous post) and the upgrades would be delayed, as would any production ramp-up.

How are any of the lawsuit scenarios a winning situation for any current owner, or any position holder that wants an airplane? They would be much better adopting a wait and see attitude. You just lost 125 of your 400 supposed plaintiffs.

A vocal minority of position holders are venting, and some are mistaking it for the voice of the silent majority. It ain't so.

And $40,000 for legal fees? That's chump change, friend. No reputable lawyer would take a class action lawsuit of that size for such a paltry sum.

Just because Eclipse has some money to operate now, doesn't mean that the owners and position holders can get their hands on it. Do you think the secured creditors are going to allow Eclipse to escrow some of their operating capital? No doubt they have covenants in place that specify minimum cash. If you somehow convinced a court to order escrowing some of that money, the creditors could and would immediately call the notes due and force Eclipse into bankruptcy.

julius said...

Just zis...,
Just because Eclipse has some money to operate now, doesn't mean that the owners and position holders can get their hands on it. Do you think the secured creditors are going to allow Eclipse to escrow some of their operating capital? No doubt they have covenants in place that specify minimum cash. If you somehow convinced a court to order escrowing some of that money, the creditors could and would immediately call the notes due and force Eclipse into bankruptcy.


you know there were already plans how to do the retrofits - everything seemed well prepared!
Are you sure that RP wants to partially fulfill EAC's promises?

In case of more severe questions for money, are the customers really throwing good money/time after bad?
Perhaps RP must keep running ABQ to continue/start the Uly connection. In case of BK he also loses money - perhaps even more than if he would fulfill all current debts. So it's a bigger game.

It's to early for "Rien ne va plus"!



Furthermore don't pass any money to EAC without the appropriate bank guarantee...

Naturally, there is a good reason to force BK: Quite soon, a fleet of unsafe FPJ might be grounded....

Julius
P. S. Ok - "unsafe FPJ" is an example for tautology!

fred said...

Grüss Gott , julius

i think you got it wrong :

#"unsafe FPJ" is an example for tautology! #

tautology ??
no ...

Pleonasm !! ;-))

fred said...

but you're right about one thing :

with Fpj , it is either too late or too early to take any action ...

the best , stop spending , take an armchair , make yourself comfortable to watch the show (sorry , but i cannot think of them in any other terms than "comics")

with a little bit of luck , you may be able to see the fireworks !

fred said...

while , few friends working in or within Russians Banks told me that since a few days , Resumes from "Cleverest ones" form W.S are flooding on this part of the world ...

a friend which is quite high in VTB mngt told me a joke , yesterday evening :
"soon , we will have to take measures to protect "Russians Finance Workers" our new "mexicanos" seems to all want to come from WS , if nothing is done , soon for the price of one Russian we will have 2 W.S. workers wiiling to do the job for half the price ...!"

after considering the matter , i am not sure he was joking ...

Dave said...

Here's a very detailed article on air taxis:
Flight International:Turbulent take-off for taxis
And here's an article on DayJet:
Aviation Week:Market, Aircraft Issues Sealed DayJet Fate
Both articles cite Eclipse's failure to provide DayJet with retrofits. Because of Eclipse's failure, DayJet could only operate 12 of their 28 aircraft in commercial operations. Given how Eclipse treated DayJet, if people aren't taking action against Eclipse because they think they'll be treated better than Ed, I think they'll find themselves sorely mistaken. There would be two upsides to getting a judgment against Eclipse - having the money go in escrow would mean that it was guaranteed and if Eclipse goes into BK because of that then there's a chance Eclipse would get better management as Eclipse can't do much worse now. Also if Eclipse's finances are so shaky that a judgment in the tens of millions would send Eclipse over the edge despite having gone through over $1 billion dollars, you'd probably be safer getting something than left holding the bag and getting nothing.

fred said...

dave :

on your comments , i think the whole matter is to be taken not against one an other (EAC VS DJ) but more in a paralleled way :

i think that the whole plot turns around "who's the owner" ...
there is probably an infinity of variant but :

one fitting very well would be :

DayJet never paid for the planes :
leading for EAC not considering Retrofits as priority ...

in the case of a buy-back deal: EAC is really out of mind to be negligent of serving their biggest customers and be poised to buy back ... (the only way to explain would be = Finance situation at EAC is even worse than thought )

more likely , the planes have never been paid for (as part of the strategy to "flood" the market and to fool buyers/depositors)

now DayJet is/was only playing dirty to put the blame on EAC , due to the repeated failures of EAC , Ed may have figured-out that by blaming them (which is quite a constant , to blame others, in the merry band!) he might be able to get something out ...

as for the "ownership of planes" i am feeling that documents probably exist on this "dark side" of the deal , but the situation being what it is ,Roel has no choice as he CANNOT disclose any terms of ...

otherwise it would be an acknowledgment that the order-book was fake ( wow... what a burning revelation !) and much more important = that he knew about since day one ! =no more possibility to blame the "past" of EAC as he knew about ! then the whole story become really fraudulent ... something Roel has always managed to escape (sometimes only from an atom length ) in all his previous failures ...

that would explain as well why DJ isn't BK yet ...
and why Roel keeps on trying to revive an already dead thing ...!

the last one to stand will be the one !
(what is the 2 most common ingredients of failed ? = Greed and Pride !)

fred said...

i forgot about dayJet :

one thing intrigue me =

if one of the reasons for DJ failure is the unreliability of the Fpj :

why waiting the last second of the last day to say : something is/was wrong with the plane ?

if they had only ten plane good for service , it is/was either :

the last day = shame on EAC (if they can state that it was usual stuff with Fpj)

all the day of DJ = then it become clear , Ed is deflecting the blame ... why not be clear BEFORE ?

in any case , it is a proof of the excellency of management ...!!

flyboymark said...

A novel suit:
Sue to open EAC's accounting for all monies spent and collected. Grounds would be the mismanagement and multitude of additional promises and failures that EAC has failed compared to other aviation industries of the same type. Open books would then be subject to intense public scrutiny that may not be favorable and put "INTENSE" pressure on board members to perform properly.

flyboymark said...

.....it's called sqeezing the balls without poping them... ;)

flyboymark said...

"Fred"...what do you think of that?

Dave said...

A novel suit:
Sue to open EAC's accounting for all monies spent and collected. Grounds would be the mismanagement and multitude of additional promises and failures that EAC has failed compared to other aviation industries of the same type. Open books would then be subject to intense public scrutiny that may not be favorable and put "INTENSE" pressure on board members to perform properly.


Actually that can be done by trying to force Eclipse into involuntary BK. Not only would that throw the books open, but if Eclipse was forced into BK, funds could be pulled back from for instance ETIRC. BK financials give both more detail and are also provided more frequently than even public companies.

fred said...

flyboy

i feel it is much too late already ...!

ok , i am trying to make myself clear :

if you would have your wife to be in terminal phase of cancer , but her not knowing she has only 1 or 2 weeks around ...

would you tell her ? and risk to make the last moments together a misery ?

or

would you spend the last few days loving her even more , taking her to that far away spot , she always dreamed to be ?

i feel (only a personal opinion ) that this is the situation , now ...

to know can be quite good , in normal time ...

but , honestly , now what is that going to change ? reveal to yourself how foolish you have been ?

that is why i think the best is to stop spending a cent on it , consider the whole thing as a loss , take a good laugh about the situation
(underlining this : next time i consider myself(buyer/depositor name) as one of the chosen ones among the ones able to "understand beauty of concept" i 'd better blindfold my eyes and jump in the stairs in hope of breaking a leg ! result is much faster and about the same in terms of ...!)

take an armchair , make yourself comfortable , watch the show ...

who knows what is to happen next ...

fred said...

as for "pushing the board to make proper actions " ...

sounds to me like :

"have you ever tried to ask a politician to stop lying ? "

whatever they say (even if they promise not to lie , anymore ) is that a new lie ?

fred said...

the only one thing , most seems to forget :

when an entity is BK = debts , holes in accountancy , unpaid bills and salary do not vanish under the spell called BK ...

but more likely spread (in term of losses ) across the community ...

(look at the bank situation : anyone to believe the ones who made billions out of situation are going to pay a cent , now ?)

so to call this a novel or whatever is probably one of the best way NOT to try take a lesson out of it ...

and so be doomed doing the same in a while ...

julius said...

Fred,

Actually that can be done by trying to force Eclipse into involuntary BK. Not only would that throw the books open, but if Eclipse was forced into BK, funds could be pulled back from for instance ETIRC. BK financials give both more detail and are also provided more frequently than even public companies.


that looks like a chance for fireworks from ABQ to Uly.

But I think RP will pay - at least the deposit holders.

The others want to have guarantees - he might change to Gavio, and then they feel ugly ...amused...

How much did RP really invest in EAC - not Uly?

Julius

P.S.: Tautology versus pleonasm:
Yes, the FPJ flies and most times landed somehow - it may be called pleonasm.

Deep Blue said...

Another thing to consider vis-a-vis EAC corporate finance and accounting:

It is not uncommon for bridge financiers (and I consider Etirc a bridge financier, if anyhting) to keep the entity out of bankruptcy for 1 year after preference payments are made to insiders, in order to avoid re-payment to the company.

That is, insiders, often when their enterprise is failing (by definition technically insolvent) will start paying themselves (bonuses, deferred comp, personal guaranteed loans, expenses etc).

It wouldn't be suprising to uncover that VR enriched himself greatly over the past few years.

Roel may have also recently. Keeping the company out of BK for 360 days may be their goal.

I've seen several high-profile ventures where persons in control (including board members) paid themselves off and then at day 361, dumped the company into Chapter 7 liquidation.

fred said...

julius :

# How much did RP really invest in EAC - not Uly? #

answer : too much anyway !

i think that is one of the corner of the whole thing ...

Vern invest =0
Ed invest = ? (but definitely more than 0)
Roel invest = officially 100M$ (i believe it's BS)

now they both feel cheated ...

who said that when the river goes dry crocodiles fight one an other ?

Dave said...

It is not uncommon for bridge financiers (and I consider Etirc a bridge financier, if anyhting) to keep the entity out of bankruptcy for 1 year after preference payments are made to insiders, in order to avoid re-payment to the company.

All the more reason to force involuntary BK as it is better to get 10% of something versus 100% of nothing as not only are they running out the clock, they're also depleting the remaining funds as well.

fred said...

dave :

#they're also depleting the remaining funds as well. #

i would fear they vanished away some times ago , already ...!

either in the day-to-day business
(remember the bouncing checks)

or already in Luxembourg or Russia (this one is unlikely : what for ?)

TBMs_R_Us said...

Baron95:

I think it is very possible that the DayJet fleet being put on the market will not result in clarity about the value of the aircraft. As you point out markets don't respond well to uncertainty. Consider the uncertainty that will now be overhanging the market for EA500s:

- Will EAC survive?
- Will the DOT or FAA take further negative action against EAC?
- Will there be a successful round of funding for EAC?
- Will there be EASA certification?
- Is the aircraft safe?
- Will the aircraft be upgraded?
- Which serial numbers were well constructed?
- What are the values for different versions of the aircraft?
- Is the aircraft worth $500K, $850K, $1.2M, $1.8M, $2.15M, or is it worthless?

Most would-be purchasers faced with this much uncertainty will simply sit on the sidelines until there is sufficient clarity to make an informed purchase decision. Adding more aircraft for sale at a very low price (if that's what happens with DayJet's fleet) doesn't add clarity -- it adds further confusion. The absence of a stable market for EA500s is self-reinforcing in the present circumstances. Unlike the financial markets, the total populations of potential buyers and potential sellers is just too small for an early establishment of pricing clarity.

Dave said...

i would fear they vanished away some times ago , already ...!

Only one way to find out.

fred said...

tbm :

yes , may be ...!

but you seems to choose EA500 as a must-buy ...

i would fear that the one with enough real cash and not-too-gloomy perspectives may be thinking twice about buying a EA500 ...

making the price goes even lower ...

as for the "really in " for EA500 , why should they hurry ? not sold today mean very probably not sold tomorrow as well ...

so price is what BUYERS want to pay ...

to compensate the unreliability of so many parameters (and the lost self-respect of buying one ?)
the price has to be low ...extremely low !!

fred said...

dave :

#Only one way to find out. #

yes ! definitely ...

but for that matter : it is a choice of watching the show till the very end
(a bit like going to see a movie , and finding so good that at the end you think "wow ,already finished ?")

or cut the "joke" short at the risk of missing "the best part"

only a question of opinion , i would say it's already too late , so why not look the end of movie ...

as it is not (probably) going to change anything , anymore ....

fred said...

at the same time :

if EAC is BK = asset may be only represented by planes parked and "owned" by EAC ...

that would be a very good way for the FAA to stop any probability of nasty question ...

see no reasons for problems = no more problems !

then what is going to be the value for FPJ ?

we are back to "bread-toasters" or "bottle openers"

the only one thing sure , NM inhabitants will be left to face the bills ...!

Dave said...

the only one thing sure , NM inhabitants will be left to face the bills ...!

Not just NM, but also FL and NY since Gainesville and Albany airports each put up $7 million for Eclipse facilities.

fred said...

# Not just NM, but also FL and NY since Gainesville and Albany airports each put up $7 million for Eclipse facilities.#

well...

i suppose you understood the meaning ...

profits are private ; losses are public !

Dave said...

i suppose you understood the meaning ...
profits are private ; losses are public !


Yes, I did understand it. These guys (Eclipse and DayJet) whine about the credit crunch, but they're the ones responsible for it with their actions. Ed right now is the clearest example of why they shouldn't be able to use the credit crunch as an excuse. Ed wont give credit card refunds, but instead spends other peoples' money on himself and his friends until there's no money left to get back. I think Eclipse is probably doing the same thing - Roel spending money that doesn't belong to him on himself while refusing to give refunds. These guys should never get corporate (or personal) credit again because they'll run out the clock and the funds and leave the creditors holding the bag.

fred said...

by the way :

that the 2 airports put some M$ into the nightmare is totally mad ...

i can more or less understand the point for an airport to pay for company to serve a said airport ...

i can still understand if the company is a low-cost (Ryanair is used to this) they cost money , but brings lots of spending bodies around ...

but about an airport that pay for a company to bring only a maximum of 4 pax /flight , on a plane that they took because it is cheaper ...
(pay for Real corporate may bring in one that would eventually spend millions )

that is beyond my comprehension !!!

fred said...

dave :

#These guys should never get corporate (or personal) credit again because they'll run out the clock and the funds and leave the creditors holding the bag.#

the problem is a bit more subtle !

when i was doing law-school , i had a prof who was constantly saying :

"never blame the one who use the law and its imperfections ... blame the ones who made the law !"


obviously their best quality is to have known HOW to use the system ...

a system that was getting mad at the time ...

i think i wrote it before : I.B.E. (irrational behavior of expectation)

fred said...

in a lighter manner :

i have a friend who is managing a "marriage agency" (mostly dealing with North-Americans)

she called me today and asked a very strange question :

"is the situation in USA is that serious and is it going to last ?"

the reason: " most of the women are calling to have the mention USA stripped-off their profile "
(i didn't know what it was , so i asked= the place where they would accept to find a potential husband !! as if love could be related with a specific place ???!!!)

the friend is worried ... she has never been dealing with anything else than North-American guys , so she is afraid of loosing her business ...

now put this into perspectives of what a Russian bank may think ...about an american product ...

julius said...

Dave, Fred,

VEB wants to spend 205 M$ for the factory (logistic center, assembly hall, paint shop, delivery center, maintenance center, and office areas).
That's a lot of money for that "project"...
How much was spent in ABQ?

What about the import taxes in Uly
rep. the "special tax zone" (I don't remember the right expression), a conditio sine qua non to the project?

Julius

Dave said...

VEB wants to spend 205 M$ for the factory (logistic center, assembly hall, paint shop, delivery center, maintenance center, and office areas).
That's a lot of money for that "project"...
How much was spent in ABQ?


I don't know. Actually now VEB is supposedly claiming $330 million.

What about the import taxes in Uly
rep. the "special tax zone" (I don't remember the right expression), a conditio sine qua non to the project?


I believe Eclipse/ETIRC had said that they see most of the market outside of Russia. The aircraft would be exported to europe. The zone is meant to be an export zone.

baron95 said...

TBMs_R_Us said...
Baron95:

I think it is very possible that the DayJet fleet being put on the market will not result in clarity about the value of the aircraft.


It is very possible. My comments were predicated on taking Shane at his word (kind of dangerous lately) that the owners of the 27 DayJets gave instructions to liquidate immediately at all costs. That will set a floor if they follow through. It may be a distressed floor, but it is a floor. Worst case, the floor is a negative value that the owner has to pay someone to take the plane to desert for chop/chop.

baron95 said...

To ZIz...

1 - Eclipse is already being sued for owners and depositors wanting their money back - i.e. that train has left the station.

2 - The notion that doing nothing (not suing) will make the difference between Eclipse getting financing or not is silly.

3 - The Columbia Owners Group and the Diamond Thierlert Group legal fees were/are LESS THAN $10K. It costs little to draft your claims and file, then get access to all the info via subpoena.

4 - If the owners were to get a judgement, the judgement does not have to be money. They can get a judgement for strict performance (e.g. do the upgrades by a set date, etc). They can even be awarded the tools, drawings, TC, etc, that they can then sell to a support organization.

5 - Eclipse and ETIRC (the funding source) are in a cozy relationship. The only way to split it open is by filing a law suit. If Eclipse takes money from ETIRC with the TC and tools and drawaings as collateral and enough time passes, guess whay, that is all out of reach of the owners PERMANENTLY.

There is HUGE downside to not file and NO downside to file.

Dave said...

There is HUGE downside to not file and NO downside to file.

This is one area where I'm 100% with Baron.

Another thing to consider as a reason that has been given not to do it is that all scenarios are equally likely with the litigation making the difference, but that isn't true. If there is no action, there's no guarantee that either a refund will be given or retrofits will happen and in fact the reasons given to not sue only further actually give reason to sue. If Eclipse is on that shaky of ground, that would only point to a need to take action rather than sit back. Eclipse many times has promised to escrow funds (most recently for the Avio 1.6 funds), but Ecliipse has been shown to not keep their word so the only escrow to trust is that set up by a judge. If setting up an escrow puts Eclipse into BK at least those who took action will get something rather than nothing. The longer the delay, the less funds Eclipse has to put in escrow. Delaying only works to Eclipse's advantage as Eclipse would probably want those who they owe to hold off until after 10/31, so that means taking quick action now is important.

There is little to lose, but much to gain by taking action and the more people who pool their resources, the less it costs each individual. Don't be scared off in talking to a lawyer. Eclipse has liabilities and not acting to protect your interests only puts you further down the line along with there being less assets available.

You can bet Roel is doing everything to get Eclipse's money and assets. Apparently a missed payment to ETIRC lead to Roel taking over. What has Roel done for you since he's missed payments? Made a joke of an offer of saying 6% per annum which you most likely wont see you principle let alone this meager joke of an interest rate. The same goes for retrofits. You have to protect your interest because you can be sure Roel is protecting his and will cut you out without remorse.

gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

Dave

All this reminds me of the "vulture scene" in Disney's "Jungle Book", where the vultures are in discussion (paraphrased) . . . "Well, what we goin' to do?" . . . and they can never quite make up their mind . . . as to 'what they're goin' to do'.

gadfly

(By the time most folks make up their mind, it's a day late and a dollar short. 'Seems that the present frame of mind confirms that old adage. And Eclipse is counting on that fact, for their future.)

Shane Price said...

Baron,

My comments were predicated on taking Shane at his word (kind of dangerous lately) that the owners of the 27 DayJets gave instructions to liquidate immediately at all costs.

Not 'my' word.

I'm trying to feed the blog with a filtered version of what's hitting the inbox.

Where I state something as my opinion, it is just that.

An opinion. Sometimes, I'm right. More often (like most of us) I'm wrong. But I am entitled to it, and so are you.

Read my posts carefully, and my comments also. I'm very careful to distinguish between 'snippets' / 'word reaches me'

and

'Gainsville'.

It's is a fact that the entire DayJet fleet is there.

For some time, 'we' have been aware of the offer for sale of some or all of those FPJ's. Lately (well, in the past 72 hours) I've had multiple contacts tell me that a) someone has pushed to sell the fleet and b) a number of offers were made.

Still not rock solid info. No one has put a 'For Sale' sign up, or published an ad. But 'we' aren't stupid. All here know the DayJet fleet IS for sale.

So, before you question my word, read what I write, carefully. I'm only trying to provide information. I'm not a supplier, employee or customer of EAC. I live 4,000nm from ABQ, on the far side of 'the pond' and have never even SEEN an FPJ.

I'm just a plain ordinary Irish businessman, amazed at how badly EAC treat the people around them.

Even from this distance.

Shane

baron95 said...

Shane said ... I'm trying to feed the blog with a filtered version of what's hitting the inbox.

Fair enough - my apologies. I should have made it clear that it was according to info on Shane's inbox.

Shane, I didn't want to do anything that would discourage you from sharing the portions of the inbox you can share. The comment was tonngue in cheek and meant in good humor not to be critical.

baron95 said...

Shane said ... a) someone has pushed to sell the fleet and b) a number of offers were made.

That ought to set a pricing floor.

Also Shane, I don't think anyone doubts that the 27 planes are for sale - Planes were not made to sit ununsed.

The only question is WHO is selling them as in whom owns them.

gadfly said...

Or said another way, "Who is selling them and who owns them?, "
or "Who is selling them, and to whom do they belong?"

gadfly

(The question is always, "Who did what to whom? . . . and Why?"

Marcus Adolfsson said...

Photo of DayJet fleet at KGNV.

Shadow said...

Marcus, what kind of digital camera are you using? I'd seriously like to know to purposely avoid buying one of those? And is the fog effect filter removable? ;-P

x said...

S/N 232 flew from ALB to KGNV today. This is its first recorded flight. It had been for sale on Controller (starting in May at $1.595M) It is now shown as owned by a leasing bank (as of 9/8/08). Could S/N 232 represent an inspection flight by a fleet buyer taking a look see at the Dayjet flock.

baron95 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AvidPilot said...

Anyone noticed that the number of Eclipse's on Controller has decreased? From 80 down to 64.

I think the reason is that no one is buying. To advertise an Eclipse now is just throwing good money after bad. My guess is the resellers will be out of business soon.

In case anyone is wondering about the Ecilpse(s) being offered for $850,000 cash, I think the broker is Brandon Carlson at JetsAmerica. These are likely Dayjet planes, sitting on the ramp in Gainesville in the hot sun, no covers over the engines, no pitot tube covers, and no screens covering the glareshield. It is sad to see any plane being treated this way.

x said...

Avid says:
Anyone noticed that the number of Eclipse's on Controller has decreased? From 80 down to 64.

Much of the drop can be attributed to a Missouri based reseller eliminating all his ads for the single engine positions. These went up in June after the repricing and position conversions for the single engine positions were announced.

I think that means he believes the single engine model is DOA.

baron95 said...

Did you guys know that Shari Meyer (Ken's wife) organized the Sunriver Eclipse Fly-In event?

From a cached page on the E500CLub Website:

"CONGRATULATIONS to Shari Meyer and her team for all the hard work and effort to bring this first event to a reality. Everyone attending has said this is one of the best events of this type they have atttended. We even had one of the insurance brokers suggest that the quality of this event would potentially qualify for a discount on your insurance."

baron95 said...

And also in the open from the Eclipse 500 Owners website a very interesting article by the CEO of jetAVIVA on the effects of the May/08 announcements on E500 prices. You better get it quick before it gets removed.

E-rival announcements impact on E500 prices

baron95 said...

And the Sunriver invitation flyer for those who haven't seen it...

baron95 said...

And you can get several research reports (not free) on Eclipse Aviation, including a D&B report for $4.00 here

fred said...

baron :

thanks for your links !
few questions arised :
JetAviva Ceo=is he the new Mike Press of the block ? (sounds very much like ...!)
Can anyone offer that guy a plane ticket to come to Europe ? at least once before stating about the "
with
a
real
need
for
regional
travel
between
small
and
medium
sized
cities

otherwise
difficult
to
reach
throughout
Europe,
the
market
for
the
Eclipse
500
and

other
VLJs
is
anticipated
to
be
robust."

some peoples should never sight on on thing :
you learn then you talk ...! not the other way especially when playing with others money ...!
(an other VERY good example of lie put unto some other's brain by comparing , using a reality somewhere , then using this image about an other place , where reality may be a lot different !!!)

Shari : did i read right ? to hear how GOOOOOD is the Fpj and eat pancakes , some had to pay 450$ ?

sounds deliciously stupid !
to me , it is like going to church , if you don't have the faith before entering , then it is boredom you are entering ....!
but if you have the faith where "libre arbitre " ? not inside the church ...!

how many pancakes can anyone make with 450$ , considering that for the speech (s) you can always tune your radio or TV on a foreign sendung that you are not going to understand ...

last link : is that a kind of website where one can buy the publication on financial and official status of a firm ?

what is the point of paying 4$ or 99$ , if enquiry (inquiry) is not made by an independent firm doing its own survey with a total , free and unbiased access to account-book ?

with such a firm (eac) the probabilities of getting "what they want you to think Vs something a bit more real" are so thin that i wonder if it is worth any $ ...

fred said...

baron :

# That ought to set a pricing floor.#

sorry , in market economy the "floor price " is equal to Zero !!

then it is up to anyone "who owns" to decide if they want to sell or not ...!

dream-time is over , Fpj value may be 0 (if they don't sell !)

fred said...

Monsieur Shane :

#I'm just a plain ordinary Irish businessman, amazed at how badly EAC treat the people around them. #

Plain ?? Ordinary ??

are you sure ?

those are probably the last qualitative words that would come to my mind ...!!

fred said...

#2 - The notion that doing nothing (not suing) will make the difference between Eclipse getting financing or not is silly.#

yes ! definitely ...

i would even venture to say :

"the notion that doing something may change the course of events is pure fantasy !"

fred said...

dave

#You can bet Roel is doing everything to get Eclipse's money and assets. Apparently a missed payment to ETIRC lead to Roel taking over#

i thought it was for "Finance Round" reasons ...

but i am quite sure that assets are already gone ...

since when ? i don't know , bear in mind that Roel is not on his first "play" into that game ...(Phillips , Tandy , L&h , ...)

i would almost venture into saying that assets were to be transfered the day "Eclipse Aviation Luxembourg" was renamed "Etirc"

what stands between then and now is only the "funny part" of story ... a bit the same than a magician attracting your eyes on left hand while stealing your wallet with right hand ...!

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

guten morgen , julius !

#That's a lot of money for that "project"...
How much was spent in ABQ? #

answer : Nothing ! as usual it is some others entities who paid ...!
(Nm state , investors , depositors , etc ...)

# What about the import taxes in Uly
rep. the "special tax zone" (I don't remember the right expression), a conditio sine qua non to the project? #


"Special Economic Zones"

conditions sine qua non ? what for ? this is (to me) the cherry on top of the cake ...!

it makes no sens (once again) the said zones are meant for NOT paying tax on profits you manufactured , created , whatever ...
STILL to pay any tax on PROFITS , you have to make them first ...

as for NON-taxation of imported spare-parts , it seems that there is a misunderstanding :

the spare-parts enter the Russian Federation without tax , but they are to be LOCKED-AWAY in a special part of factory under the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF R.F. CUSTOMS SERVICES ...

it exits already for foreign cars makers implanted in Russia ...

it is a very simple calculation :

if the tax is on = the firm is NOT developed !

if the tax is off =it become interesting for makers , but Russian state can be defrauded big times ... (defrauding the tax system became the national sport over the last 15 years ...)

the "middle of road" solution : R.F. Customs designate an (one or few) agent who is going to care about this special part of your factory "Under Customs exemptions" (so strictly speaking a "out of boundaries" like a consulate or embassy is in foreign land ) but has soon as any spare-parts go out of it , tax are to be paid !

i visited such a plant (car plant in Moscow region ) with such "special part" the thing was well made ONLY customs officers were allowed inside( with delivery facilities created in that special zone , the parts didn't have to go in factory then in "tax-free-zone" but straight from trucks to "special zone" ) , workers needing spares had to ask at a desk for this many XXX and that many YYY , then the spares was handed out by Customs , at end of day the total of due tax made and bill presented straight away for payment the day after ...
(if no-payment = no more parts !who said Russians are naive or gullible ? ;-)) )

i talked with the guy of the R.F.C. , a very nice guy , very well aware of implications of job ... i tried to provoke him into speaking about "potential bribes"
the guy answered with a big smile and a " we've got weapons and the right of using them ...!"

fred said...

i forgot (silly me !):

cherry on top of cake =

what is going to be presented to the few remaining gullible as THE TRICK to make profits ...!

the best of the story : the plant does not have to constructed to make them believe that it is going to make any difference ...!

it is nice to avoid tax on profits ...
but in order to make profits , you first have to sell ...
and , if possible , selling with a positive margin ...

that's why it is called "PROFITS" ;-))

julius said...

Fred,

guten Morgen und vielen Dank für die Erläuterungen!

Taxes are not a problem, as long as ETIRC can prove that it acts accordingly....

Russian factories that operate below capacity are ready to assemble Western aircraft. For instance, Eclipse Aviation, which is based in New Mexico (USA), has chosen to serially produce its six-seater Eclipse-500 executive jets at the Aviastar plant in Ulyanovsk (the Urals).

Source:
What the Russian papers say
14:44 | 22/ 06/ 2005

MOSCOW, June 22 (RIA Novosti)

Nezavisimaya Gazeta


Did VR and RP really believe that there is a market for more than 200
FPJ per year and two plants??

There was time to stop the ETIC/Uly connection, why does RP continue this show (if the press info are correct)?


Julius
P.S.: A simple BK doesn't fit to this story!

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

julius :

yes , a simple BK is not fitting !

i see this as more something to "let rot in the sun ..."

one day , some depositors , creditors , owners fed-up of waiting are going to take action ...

only to find out that officially , the finance provided by Roel was in exchange of all patents rights ,pc , tc , the whole lot ...

if nothing really serious can be found against Etirc , what is the risk ?
(off-course , every one knows they have an incestuous relation , but what about proof standing in front of two different country juridic system ??? very unlikely , the US court will claim one version , Luxembourg will answer with something like "stupidity is no crime related !")

up to then , it is better to keep the things as they are (for Roel) and let things happen in a natural way ...


Thanks a lot for your joke =
"is there a market for so many Fpj within a year split over 2 factories ?"

still laughing ...;-))

fred said...

but i wrote about tax , because i feel that Roel is (or had) with the idea of presenting it as a safe heaven ....

something like :

"you see on top of cheaper labor costs , we have as well tax exemptions ...!"

luring peoples between the two system "profit tax" and "import tax"

one is to be paid whatever happen
the other ONLY if there is profits ...

and that is very uncertain that EAC/ETIRC could one day show some profits ...

unless your "joke" about size of market become true ...

but for this they need EASA ...

to have EASA , they need to finish the toy ...

to finish the toy , they need money ...

to have money , they need to sell

such a beautiful vicious circle or in aviation terminology : death spiral ! ;-))

eclipse_deep_throat said...

interesting to find this on the AIN online site. dumb question: if the DayJet fleet sold today, who pays to repaint 'em? i for one wouldn't want that damn logo on MY plane...

UBS Reports Slowing Bizav Flight Activity
By Chad Trautvetter

September 30, 2008
ATC, Government


According to UBS Investment Research’s business jet update issued on Friday, U.S. and international bizjet flight activity was “sharply lower” in August. However, about 86 percent of the flights UBS tracked were domestic flights within the U.S., meaning the international sampling is somewhat under-represented.

Analyst David Strauss noted that total cycles were 18 percent lower than in the same month last year and 8 percent lower year-to-date, “driven mainly by reduced charter activity. Non-charter bizjet activity, however, was only 4 percent lower on a rolling 12-month basis and 6 percent lower year-to-date, UBS figures show.

“While flight activity has declined in all three range classes, short-range aircraft activity has seen the largest year-to-date decline–12 percent lower through August,” Strauss wrote, “while long-range aircraft activity is 6 percent lower and medium-range aircraft activity is 4 percent lower. Meanwhile, a separate UBS bizjet operator survey shows a “worsening view” of market conditions.

“Overall, business conditions are nearly 30 percent below peak levels of last year and have now fallen to below normal levels with our bearish outlook…suggesting that further deterioration is likely,” the survey says.

eclipse_deep_throat said...

and this blurb is also on the CNBC site, but first reported via Bloomburg. if UBS is having its own issues - about to layoff 1900 people - then i wonder how committed they are to helping Eclipse.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=abPJXo3vxIaA

fred said...

e.d.t.

a light correction : the number announced by Bloomberg is ONLY for USA (New-york taking the hardest blow )

UBS has announced to cut jobs (worldwide) by some 8000 to 10.000
(Zurich being the main target )

after losing some 50 Billions $ in the bank crisis mainly due to subprime cataclysm .

2 questions remain :
Was Vern in UBS board ?
WTF do they want to loose even more with Etrick ?

airtaximan said...

is it my imagination, or has this become a non-US blog?

should tell you something about EAC

Black Tulip said...

ATM,

Thank goodness English is the international language of aviation.

fred said...

Bt :

#Thank goodness English is the international language of aviation.#

ah , c'est sur , çà ! ;-))

AT :

i am sorry not being a US citizen if it please you ...

but with the merry band going eastward , i think that making the mistake of (each one) looking at our belly-button will make their path a GOLDEN one ...

and by the way , Monsieur shane is not really to american himself ...

eclipso said...

WTF...I MAY not be American...does Alabama count?

Dave said...

Here's a detailed article on Eclipse as it relates to the congressional investigation:
AIN:Congressional scrutiny proves newest travail for battered Eclipse

Aviation market slowdown coming:
AIN: Market slowdown coming, says forecaster

Eclipske needs EASA:
AIN: Eclipse Gets Funding for Russian Plant

fred said...

something about aviation :

#Forecast International´s new study on "The Market for Business Jet Aircraft,"

Overall, Forecast International projects that 15,936 business jets, worth an estimated $ 223 billion, will be produced from 2008 through 2017. This total includes some 5,600 Very Light Jets (VLJ). The VLJ sector is expected to be a very dynamic portion of the market. VLJs are the smallest aircraft on the business jet market, and include such models as the Eclipse 500 and the Diamond D-JET.#


what 5600 VLJ to be build over the next 10 (ten) years ?

something must be wrong as EAC/Etirc is going to build alone 1200 per year , which make it a mere 12000 units for the period ...

do they intend to capture the whole market ? for ten years ?

fred said...

dave , ain is serving again and again the same news ...

do they have any interest in process ?

but i think i wrote it before :

*in order to save EA500 , they need EASA

*to have EASA , they to finish all

*to finish all , they need money

* to have money , they need to sell

*to sell , they need EASA

and to get money to produce what could be certified by EASA (Russian Bank) they need EASA ...

did i miss something ? or is it going nowhere ?

Dave said...

did i miss something ? or is it going nowhere ?

Eclipse is probably doing the same thing to EASA that it did to the FAA. Putting extreme pressure on them and saying if they don't certify, Eclipse will go under. I think Eclipse has been saying they'd get EASA to coincide with when they'd need it for funding. I think that if Eclipse doesn't have EASA by the end of this month, they'll be in serious trouble.

Shane Price said...

Fred,

We Paddies boast of being 'halfway between Boston and Berlin', both physically and mentally. Plus I'm 3/8 American by birth, and entitled a passport, here or there.

So, yes, there is a European aspect to the blog. This is clearly a good thing. It helps balance some of the more 'rural' concerns voiced by hillbillies from Alabama.

Or New Mexico.

Anyone here from Tennessee? Now, that's a REAL backwater. Ooops, I forgot Kentucky.

And Montana.

Ok, enough with the joking....

Variety is the spice of life as far as I'm concerned. I love Boston, but prefer Barcelona. Chicago is a fun town, but London has a unique buzz. Of course nothing beats a pint of 'the black stuff' in a real Irish pub, but I enjoy a beer in Munich nearly as much.

The wider audience of the blog since our dear departed Mr. Raburn sued, is a testament to the real concerns people have around Eclipse Aviation Corporation.

Try a Google search for 'Eclipse Aviation'. EAC are hanging on to top slot by their fingernails...

And also remember how much news 'breaks' here first. Look at recent headline posts for a wide variety of news, opinion and yes, a bit of fun.

Admiral Kochoff. I'm still smiling at that one....

This blog goes from strength to strength, and enjoys a wider readership that you would imagine, across the globe.

And that's a good thing.

Shane

fred said...

yes , i understood ...

#Eclipse is probably doing the same thing to EASA that it did to the FAA. Putting extreme pressure on them and saying if they don't certify, Eclipse will go under. #

well unfortunately for Roel Easa is no FAA , friendship and backchish are of no real use ...

may be they (EAC) need to get familiar with a legal term in Europe :

PREVARICATION (i don't know if it exist in US law )

this is the surest way to loose a job for a civil servant , no proof to be made about , suspicion are enough to be removed into a far-away locker ...

the problem is that EASA staff are Civil-Servant , of the best (worst?) class ...

as they work for E.U. thing , they get some kind of special treatment (as to pay , tax , advantage , etc..)

so pressure , you say : may be but very unlikely ...!

as for the jobs blackmailing , well factory (ies) is (are) out of E.U. , so why should they care ?

fred said...

Monsieur Shane :

this confirm what i wrote , you are very far from being an "ordinary" Irish (at least for us )

about "admiral Kochoff" : i must admit that it took me a while to get that one ...
especially about your pronunciation !

sometimes i get a bit lost in different idioms , but yes it was a good one !

and , YES , to have a broad audience is for the best ...

as the best way for "our merry band" is to play with misunderstandings , cross cultural differences and so on ...

obviously the more a plot(scam,sting,dirty deal) is known , the less it can be used against unaware persons ...!

fred said...

by the way , dave , where are you from ? (if not a secret!)

i would like to invite you for a tour in Paris ...

for you to see what is a "civil servant when being put under pressure ..."

i am not sure you'll find it funny , but you would be in for some amazement ...! ;-))

julius said...

Fred,

admiral Kochoff

they are commemorting Nikita - NY 1963 shoe (not keys) on the table because of youtwo (also Irish?).

Julius

julius said...

Fred,

Никита Сергеевич Хрущёв

correction - it happened 1960!

Julius

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

kein Problem , julius !

i did'NT remember the date myself ...
(~#{|€¤ keyboard , GRRRR !)

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 234   Newer› Newest»