Basically, the Judge in Delaware granted the Senior Note Holders 'Motion to Convert' today, Wednesday 4th March 2009. 19 employees are retained to Friday 20th March as caretakers. In due course I expect to get full details of the court 'action' which I will of course pass on.
Phil Friedman has already contacted me to say he is preparing a 'detailed proposal' for the current owners, which he will communicate in due course. I expect that any other bidders, including the 'owners group' will also be outlining their plans shortly.
It is in many ways, for many people, a very sad day. The end of a genuine attempt to change almost every aspect of how a small jet is designed, built, sold and maintained or a failed business plan that became a scam. Either way, I'm sure we'll be debating many aspects of EAC for a long time to come.
However, today I ask you to think of those affected, who've lost time, money and resources. Remember the suppliers, depositors and owners who've been through ups and downs which must have put great pressures on people over an extended period. And finally the staff, those who held on, hoping against hope that Roel would come good at the last minute.
The upside is that the new owners, whoever they are, have a totally clean sheet, unencumbered by debt or obligation. They will employ several hundred of those already familiar with this aircraft and, when times improve, may well be able to hire more people with "Eclipse Aviation Corporation" on their CV's.
Best wishes to all.
Shane
532 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 532 Newer› Newest»I would love to see someone like Piaggio aircraft, a company that similiar to Eclipse uses cutting edge and non standard technology to produce aircraft. They took over when the p-180 originally failed back in the 80's and through them production of that aircraft continues. I believe they just recently delivered the 150th aircraft. Now in my opinion a company like that would be perfectly poised to aquire the assets of Eclipse and manage the production of it the way it should have been done the first go of it.
This of course is just my opinion.
That is generally my opinion too in that I could see hope from an aircraft manufacturer taking over, but with the proposals of the smaller groups I'm wary because they are too small. I think it was really too bad that Eclipse was mismanaged from the top and continued to be mismanaged from the top even after Vern was fired, which only caused further damage.
Separate and aside from that I can't wait until Roel's court testimony is posted with him saying the money was in the bag. Now worldwide people get to see that Roel is a lying backstabbing double dealer who will shaft anyone. I think it is really unfortunately what Roel did to Eclipse out of self-interest because he really could have done a lot and went in there with high approval ratings so to speak, but instead all he did was set Eclipse up for him to take it over completely. If Roel had operated differently, I think he could have repaired some of the damage caused by Vern, but instead he put salt in the wound while burning up more money and more goodwill.
ea500: FreedomsJamtarts quoted you as saying:
...but if it was me in that situation and I was a coder for Avio I would have taken a copy of the code and compilers with me before turning out the lights for good. and asked if anyone thought that would be theft.
At first blush, agreed with FreedomJamtarts that it would be.
You seemed to think that you could then distribute the databases that you generated to other owners without impunity because you were: 1) providing it for free, and 2) you don't have assets so lawyers could not collect anything from you.
You focused on the civil liabilities. You seemed to ignore any possible criminal charges that could be brought. I was just trying to make you aware of those.
Of course if you get the DB machine legally, you are free to distribute or free or charge, whatever.
ea500: I see that you said your intention was to safeguard it, not to steal it. Fair enough.
WhyTech:
What about Embraer, even though they were well educated by Douglas way back when.
The lead attorneys for the class-action plaintiffs in Varela et al. v. Eclipse Aviation Corp., No. 09-ap-50265, Bankr. D. Del. (docket listing), are Jack A. Raisner and Rene S. Roupinian, from the New York law firm of Outten & Golden LLP. One of their web pages says:
"If you have been affected by a layoff or shutdown at one of these companies or any company, contact us. ... Eclipse Aviation ..."
(http://www.warnlawyers.com/PracticeAreas/We-Are-Investigating.asp)
The "contact us" link points to: http://www.warnlawyers.com/CM/Custom/Contact.asp
The class for which the case seeks relief is "former employees who worked for Defendant [Eclipse Aviation] and who were terminated without cause, as part of, or as the result of, plant closings ordered by Defendant and who were not provided 60 days advance written notice of their terminations by Defendant" (Complaint at ¶1, March 3, 2009).
(P.S. For the record: in the comment above at 11:12 PST, Bill E. Goat is either joking or else confusing me with Norman Malinski, Esq.. I have never represented anyone but myself in any court, nor have I ever even been licensed to do so.)
Every GA aircraft manufacturer is facing a lot of hard issues just now, and I can't imagine any of them wanting to take on Ecorpse on top of what they already have. Had it been a complete and stable design that only required capital and good management, that would be a conceivable scenario. But with the fleet in shambles, Avio way behind the eight ball, and the manufacturing facility in some unknown but flaky state, Ecorpse would easily become an albatross around any buyer's neck.
Incidentally, the only owners of E500s that I have a problem with are those that went on a crusade making claims of greatness for the aircraft that were simply wrong, sort of mimicking Vern's disdain for everything else out there as being inferior. I do wonder about the judgement of anyone who would purchase one in the past couple of years given the well known history of problems with both the aircraft and the company, but, to each his own. I don't see much point in rubbing further salt in the wound of E500 ownership at this point. What's done is done, and I hope the owners find some way forward.
"What about Embraer"
Was thinking U.S. manufacturers; dont know the Embraer history.
"Bill E. Goat is either joking or else confusing me with Norman Malinski, Esq."
Plan B- apologies !!
(Al, thanks for your GREAT work on the blog documenting the previous procedings, as well as current ones!! :)
"What about Embraer"
Some quick reserach shows Embraer roots in the 1940's, so perhaps my generalizations still hold in this case.
I want to make sure I am not misunderstood here, Jackrabbit sort of hit on it, but I want to complete it.
To make it perfectly clear we are dealing with two seperate issues here.
The first issue has to do with the database cruncher that produces the Avio NG navdata image. I said that if it was made avialable to me ( legally) I would have gladly put in the effort to get a type 2 LOA to distribute it to other NG owners and I would do it for free. I.E. No special self interest here to exploit those in need for my profit.
The second issue has to do with the Avio NG code itself. And Jackrabbit did correctly pick up on that in that I would do that to protect the fleet in the event that someone intentionaly or unintetionaly lost or destroyed that code.
Embraer was a subcontractor for Douglas for years until Douglas management decided to save even more money by outsourcing more work to them.
I'm not sure of the entire history myself, but they were a sheet metal house until the MD80 (I think) stopped production. Then they started on their own aircraft design.
Sorry to interrupt the database talk, however...
People have been mentioning Roel here and there. Shane even went as far to have found him in the Ukraine on MARCH 3rd.
I find this every interesting because he is trying to sell them the same story he sold the Russians. The guy may have let Eclipse slip in the Chapter 7, but doesn't that ultimately mean that he could possibly get the assets much cheaper? I mean he had a great dog an pony show with the 363 sale, however, I don't think it can be overlooked that he might have been planning this all along.
All I am saying is don't count Roel out just yet, he may just be bargain shopping. You know like Wal America?
Embraer is already in the VLJ business with the Phenom.
Piaggio boasts the fastest and most efficeint turbo prop in the world, so why not add the most fuel efficient turbojet to your product line. It makes a good match for a company like Piaggio.
And yes the timing of all of this couldn't be any worse with the condition of the world economy.
But the prospect of picking up a certified aircraft that is almost complete for pennies on the dollar might seem attractive to someone already in the business that has some cash on hand.
I really believe that someone that knows what they are doing can turn the Eclipse 500 into a really good aircraft.
"Piaggio boasts the fastest and most efficeint turbo prop in the world, so why not add the most fuel efficient turbojet to your product line."
They may have something else in common - a very senior acft industry exec tells me the Piaggio is a nightmare from the manufacturing efficiency perspective - sort of made in the woods by elves.
"I really believe that someone that knows what they are doing can turn the Eclipse 500 into a really good aircraft."
I doubt you will get much pushback on this statement as far as it goes. The issue is whether its worth what this will cost relative to market size, competitive position, and capital required?
The guy may have let Eclipse slip in the Chapter 7, but doesn't that ultimately mean that he could possibly get the assets much cheaper?
Yes, you are correct.
I mean he had a great dog an pony show with the 363 sale, however, I don't think it can be overlooked that he might have been planning this all along.
I'm as big into Eclipse-related conspiracies as anyone, but I don't think Roel would have intentionally let the sale fall through...I think he set up and timed the Eclipse BK and did other such things, but having your purchase fall through is just bad.
All I am saying is don't count Roel out just yet, he may just be bargain shopping. You know like Wal America?
I think he's in desparation or else he wouldn't have gone to the Ukrainians in the first place after having literally spent years with the Russians, though I agree with you about not counting Roel out. I think the court needs to rule what rights Roel has so that he cant interfere with a future Eclipse buyer and also I think his super-priority status needs to be challenged.
Whytech: Now you are bringing up a good debate.
TBM sells for over 3 mil it is single engine, and it burns about the same amount of fuel. Maybe smeone here knows the exact price of one and how many they deliver a year. But I would think there is a market for 60 os so Eclipses per year. (and probably more in a good economy)
Now how much is it going to cost to aquire Eclipse assests ch 7
Once production rights are aquired, how much would it cost to complete the 30 aircraft already on the line, and then to create another 30.
If an existing aircraft company picked up Eclipse, couldn't they use existing employees to do some of the support work and such that maybe only 60 to 80 new employees would be needed to get the 30 planes out the door. Avio 1.5 is finished so the aircraft is pretty much complete from an operational standpoint.
The only other debate would be to further develope Avio or create a totally new aircraft based on existing engine and airframe.
I am only posing questions here, the answers to these questions are obviously more obscure
"turn the Eclipse 500 into a really good aircraft.""
We would likley disagree as to what constitutes "a really good aircraft." Far more required than buying the assets on the cheap and banging together the remaining acft.
Eclipse Aviation is now offline?
I really believe that someone that knows what they are doing can turn the Eclipse 500 into a really good aircraft.
I think the fpj is a real small bird - perhaps a little bit too small. Remember the discussion about a Garmin 1000 in the fpj...
Julius
EA500s
Wishful thinking. ISS walked. How are you going to build 30 more EA500's with 60-80 people when you need to certify:
1/ New FADEC installation
2/ New Display suite
3/ New Electrical architecture
4/ New warning/alerting system
5/ New A/P system
6/ New Px controller
Etc....
"fpj is a real small bird - perhaps a little bit too small. "
Right on! Part of my notion of making "a really good aircraft" from the EA 50 would be a pretty good "stretch." Sort of like what Gulfstream did when they morphed the G100 into the G150.
Opinicus (the flight sim people) have filed an adversary case for declaratory judgment related to intellectual property and equipment. I haven't read the complaint.
"my notion of making "a really good aircraft" from the EA 50 "
The acft would have to be useable as a serious traveling machine (safe, reliable, comfortable, efficient, in that order) for business or pleasure, not a Sunday hobby flyer (an L39 would be more fun for this purpose and far cheaper).
Would require (but not limited to):
1. Training from a first tier training provider such as Flight Safety
2. Sufficient service centers so that most owners are no more than 1000 miles from a center - probably a minimum of 3 in the continental U.S.; 5-6 would be better. Provisions for AOG service.
3. Parts readily available at reasonable (for a jet acft) prices.
3. High dispatch reliability
4. Operating/support costs in line with value of acft.
And these dont directly address needed improvements in the airframe/systems themselves. So, a pretty daunting agenda even if the assets can be purchased for $1.
And these dont directly address needed improvements in the airframe/systems themselves. So, a pretty daunting agenda even if the assets can be purchased for $1.
I believe the sum of Eclipse's parts might be worth more than the whole. I would expect that many good things came from Eclipse engineers that could be incorporated in future aircraft. I expect that is true for both the 500 as well as the 400. I think it would be very difficult to restart production of those aircraft, but I think there would be value in taking some of the concepts and designs from the Eclipse programs and incorporating them into future aircraft. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the best ideas didn't make it into the production aircraft, but by buying the rights, you would get all the intermediary steps that went into the final production aircraft.
"you would get all the intermediary steps that went into the final production aircraft."
Well maybe. Remember this is an asset sale out of BK. Who really knows whats there and what you should be getting? If one is extremely lucky, a nice well documented package tied up with a bow. More likely a miscellaneous assortment of "stuff" which requires much sorting out.
"More likely a miscellaneous assortment of "stuff" which requires much sorting out."
The value of IP is greatly reduced if the intellectuals dont come with it!
WhyTech,
I'll get you, and your little dog too!
:)
"Sort of like what Gulfstream did when they morphed the G100 into the G150."
You are as bad as Fred with these homework assignments.
Tell me, fellow propeller head buckaros, how do we go from THIS:
Aero 520
-to THIS:
Gulfstream G150
---------------------------------
Truth is stranger that fiction- and this one is REALLY true...AND, REALLY STRANGE...
Aero 520
(first flight of L3085 prototype, April 23, 1948)
Aero Commander series
IAI Westwind
IAI Astra / Gulfstrea G100
Gulfstream G150
(certified Nov 07, 2005)
---------------------------------
Whew!!
That's 57 years of evolution !!
The data is all there, and a saying many math students are painfully familiar with: "the proof is left to the reader".
Maybe there's hope for "some future developments" of the EA500 platform after all !!
:)
"You are as bad as Fred with these homework assignments."
We dont want you to become bored. You seem to have an insatiable appetite for homework.
(hint: use a mouse right click, instead of left, to ease navigation with these links, I've found helpful- it keeps from being reset to the top of the blog page every time)
TBM sells for over 3 mil it is single engine, and it burns about the same amount of fuel.
This is true.
Now, ask yourself how it is that a TBM is worth every penny of the $3M, and someone would settle for a FPJ? If you understood why a TBM costs $3M, what sort of engineering and manufacturing quality is entailed, then you'd understand why there are so many critics of the FPJ.
With PT-6A reliability as high as it is (MTBF of greater than 120,000 hours), a second engine in and of itself is not much of a selling point. So a crappy aircraft with 2 engines is still a crappy aircraft. Fuel economy is a minor issue, when one owns this class of aircraft. Obviously, one seeking a CHEAP aircraft won't be interested in a new TBM. One seeking a high quality aircraft won't be interested in an FPJ. To each his own!
WT,
insatiable appetite..for details, and nachos.
This illustrates the one downside to blogging, vs B.S.'ing over a beer, where I could listen to someone else fill in the details.
More likely a miscellaneous assortment of "stuff" which requires much sorting out.
The value of IP is greatly reduced if the intellectuals dont come with it!
All that is true, just that pieces of the Eclipse might be worth utilizing in future aircraft even if restarting the production line for the Eclipse itself isn't. I believe there is value in there that is more than $0 or some insignificant amount and yes, it would require a deep dive and analysis to see what exactly you bought, but again if the price is right I think it would be a worthwhile pursuit.
Piaggio aircraft is partially owned by Ferrari. Ferrari, in turn, is owned by Fiat. Both Fiat and Piaggio are long time aircraft manufacturers. Piaggioaero.com is an interesting website and a welcome uplift from the wake for the FPJ.
I new the G150 was based on the G100 was based on the Astra- but wasn't sure it went back further (it does- WAY further).
Extra credit problema:
a) Any one know what wing the G200 uses?
b) Or the G250?
---------------------------------
Answers:
a) Same wing, G100-150-200
b) New wing (made by Spirit Aerostructures):
G250
(" Spirit -- the former Boeing facility in Wichita -- is building the wing for the G250, and the new super-size G650".)
These Spirit guys are kicking butt, even in this downmarket, capturing work on the 787, A350, Cessna Columbus, Gulfstream G250/650- I recommend all our ex-EAC friends with structural design and assembly experience to shoot them your resume).
I can't think of ANY aircraft that has had a more drastic change over time that the AeroCommander/G150- pretty amazing evolution from:
-high wing piston twin, to
-high wing turboprop twin, to
-mid-wing fan jet, to
-low wing fan jet, to
-BIG low wing fan jet.
Amazing!!
"has had a more drastic change over time that the AeroCommander/G150"
IMO, this is the magnitude of change required in the EA50 to become "a really good aircraft."
gadfly:
This one is for you, I bet you would be very much in agreement for the Eclipse jet to become this
*big grin*
Eclipse future
After reading the Nth article about the Eclipse fleet of 260 airframes (including S/N 260) and the revised DOC of flying one of these gave pause to the total number of true customers in the mix.
A small point, were not five of the 260 production serial numbers part of the test fleet which is wearing the Experimental label? This would reduce the number delivered to customers to 255.
Of the 255, one has been scrapped from an incident and 28 are part of the DayJet fleet; leaving 226. This would erode the 260 base by 17 percent assuming the DayJet model failed due to operating costs. If a business model assumes 260 customers with a 300k buy in for support may well turn into; or be 350k.
There are two aircraft, one in Hawaii and one in the UK which would be well outside the sphere of support in regard to a one hour flight to an FBO.
Of the remaining fleet, I can only approximate what percentage belongs to corporate entities which made the purchase based upon economics which are no longer relevant. The unfinished ‘aircraft’ in ABQ may range from lacking engines and paint to complete; to the other extreme of a data plate thrown into a bucket of bolts.
The Beech/Raytheon Starship had an extremely small production of 50 ‘completed’ aircraft. Yet an astonishing 5 (or 10%) remain airworthy without any support from the manufacturer. There remains enough hardware potential to keep any hardcore Eclipse owners airworthy for some time. One of the unique unknowns in this case remains in the incomplete and pseudo proprietary equipment associated with the Eclipse.
Hi Modestan,
(As in, central valley?)
Good points about out-of-service (for now anyway) EA500's
(Which "one has been scrapped from an incident"- I think I missed that incident).
I would expect the DelayJet fleet to be refurbed*, and added to the mix- maybe the same with some of the flight test airplanes (typical practice, except for maybe the first one or two- I think Boeing might even sell the first article, in some cases- I doubt if 787 will be one of these cases though).
I figure around half the assembly line paperweights could be added to the fleet, eventually.
But, you forgot to subtract Wedgie's airplane-somehow, I just don't see anyone wanting to update it very much, except to install an entertainment system (such as: in-flight rattlesnake / angry bees / space cockroach dispenser).
---------------------------------
In fact, the DelayJet represents an interesting opportunity for some mod shop to "buy the bunch", and use them as guinea pigs for home-brewed upgrades, and then recoup some of the development costs by selling the updated fleet: figure they could turn about a $1M profit each (figure buy'em for $750K in volume, sell 'em for $1.75M each in a couple years when the economy is recovering, and the mods are done), which would pay for a LOT of R&D for a small shop with low overhead.
FUN-WITH-NUMBERS experiment:
100 techie people
x
$150K per year
x
2 years
= 100 x 150K x 2 = $30M
Now, say 28 airplanes x $1M = $28M
So, you can almost break even.
Duncan Aviation, are you listening?
Duncan Aviation
("Duncan Aviation avionics installation services are as varied as the products available, which include flight, phone and entertainment systems... ". Hmmm, how 'bout a "Can-O-Snakes"? :)
ea500s
Yeh . . . hilarious! But, no, I don’t think I’d want to see anyone either at 39,000 feet, or minus a few feet, under water, in the little bird. (Especially with the history of the “wind screen” on the Elipse.)
On occasion, we’d take our boat down over 400 feet, “test depth”. And even then, things get “interesting”. Bad stuff happens fast at those extremes, without second opportunities.
On another note: This morning I met with one of the casualties of the demise of Eclipse . . . and confirmed in my own judgement, that Eclipse is not coming back. My only question is “how is it possible to spend that amount of money in that time frame, with virtually nothing to show for it . . . except a few wishes, based on imagined possibilities, and “pipe dreams”? . . . and a collection of artifacts, worth scrap prices.
gadfly
“My oh my!”
Hmmm,
100 techie people
x
$150K per year
x
2 years
= 100 x 150K x 2 = $30M
That's what I figured an avionics upgrade team would cost.
Too bad Wedgie didn't spend THAT money upfront- we would not be observing the current debacle.
It's really that simple, I think.
$30M, versus $3B;
ONE PERCENT !!
Talk about penny wise and pound foolish...
"So, you can almost break even."
Now you "get it!"
WT,
-and- make a profit by selling the upgrade to the other 200+ aircraft, as well as becoming the "Verntastic Intergalactic Experts" on the care and feeding of your EA500.
.)
Tbm,
Personal preference, but I have owned an 850 and prefer my cheap jet to it. The eclipse truely does fly like a dream and some life insurances don't cover you without a second engine. The tbm also was a nice aircraft, but I did not feel as if I had the mission capability that I have with the eclipse. But I am still waiting for those upgrades too...
Bill e. goat,
Yes that’s the right Modesto (hometown). The scrapped airframe was N333MY which had an off runway excursion. I may have been premature in declaring this vehicle as beyond repair. I assumed with the limited factory support and Controller offering the same jet for 900k the actuarial value would have been in play.
You are correct in that I forgot (fill in many blanks) about refurbed planes and former Captain’s of industry. I like your business model the most for the simplicity and transparency. Something the owners of the present fleet should experience irrespective of the ultimate source of service.
ea500s/Gadfly
Regarding submarines...
"On the Beach" was on late-night tv last night/this morning (Encore channel). (Gregory Peck is my all time favorite actor).
On The Beach
Fred Astaire as a race car driver?!?
Good roles by Ava Gardner and Anthony Perkins (of "Psycho" fame)
I was dozing during the film, and thought they were lining up for Iodine Tablets...something a bit darker instead. (It sounds like the book was darker than the movie, as well)
Iodine Tablets
Science has cured many of nature's plagues...and created some replacements.
Hi Modestan,
Nice area indeed.
Regarding my admittedly simplistic biz plan, to elaborate:
To acquire the Delayjet fleet
28 airplanes
750 $K
= 28 x 750 $K = 21 $M
And as above, 30 $M for the staff
That's $51M, gone for 2 years
I am concerned that we've got a bunch of wishful thinkers lining up, without the truly deep pockets to succeed. To "make a small fortune in aviation" as the saying goes...("By starting with a large one").
Much like some argue the airplane is in the "neck of the hour glass" (bigger market for smaller+cheaper, or larger+costlier. but nothing in the middle), I would say suitors are in a similar pinch-point. Either a small shop (60 people) could supply parts, and no engineering; or a large suitor (think, $300M investment) could buy the factory, do the engineering, restart production.
But the in-between suitors ($25M, 200-300 employees) are going have the worst of both worlds- not enough capital to restart production, but too much overhead expense.
Sooooo, my "favorites" to buy out EAC are:
1) RP, with a ton of cash (as EPx mentions).
2) Wedge, with a ton of cash (as, no sane man would mention- er- something like that).
3) Some established mod shop (Duncan, etc), without a ton of cash, but with a steady pre-existing revenue stream
4) Mom-and-Pop operator (60 employees)
5) Well, I don't have a fifth. I
think anything but the above is doomed to failure.
Bill e goat,
I think your simplistic plan has the virtues of allowing average adults to make a decision based upon verifiable information to be relegated to the many rationalizations which represent any customer base. That is…aircraft ownership. If some airframe sucks fuel through a line the size of a garden hose as fast as it will go; remains the decision of the owner. Attention B-25 owners – Thank You!
As you have illustrated, the traditional air business model may not apply. The chances of an organization such as Duncan with a nimble business model and a known (can of snakes) variable seem to have a much greater chance of success. This versus an organization which may purchase 30 aircraft without even knowing the definition of paperweight.
Modestan,
Thanks for the kind compliment- I'm not sure who originated the "hourglass" distribution of sales- but I think it was the aviation industry analyst Richard Aboulafia of the Teal group who brought it up in terms of Eclipse:
"This development in aviation effectively mirrors a broader economic trend—society is moving towards an "hourglass" model. As with retail stores, customers are splitting into a large cost-sensitive element (scheduled air service, which is becoming more Spartan than ever), and a small, price-inelastic element (private aviation).
"There is less and less of a middle market, in between the two. This phenomenon means that the top end of the business jet for sale market will grow faster than the other segments. It also means the air taxi concept is likely to find itself exactly in that no-man’s land between the top and bottom of the hourglass."
(undated article):
Richard Aboulafia
---------------------------------
"Duncan with a nimble business model and a known (can of snakes) variable..."
Regarding the "entertainment system" installations- I wonder if those snakes have to be TSO'd ???
:)
Hello EclipsePilotOMSIV,
(whew! :), I'm glad you find the EPx "handle" enjoyable, in the good natured fashion with which it is intended.
(I think we have an Eclipse_Pilot here sometimes, so to prevent confusion I added the "x" -I don't know what OMSIV stands for so I usually get the letters backwards, thus figured x was okay for shorthand purposes- thanks! ).
"But I would think there is a market for 60 os so Eclipses per year. (and probably more in a good economy)"
OK, I'll bite... at what selling price?
Hint- I guesstimate the cost to build one of the flytaptions at 60 per annum is 2x or more than the prjected cost at the 500-700 per annum Vern stated. Could bump up against a build cost of $3M or more.
If this is even close, you need to sell them for $4M... you'll sell ZERO
EclipsePilotOMSIV says: I find this every interesting because he [RP] is trying to sell them [Ukraine] the same story he sold the Russians.
Dave says: I think he's in desparation or else he wouldn't have gone to the Ukrainians in the first place after having literally spent years with the Russians
Hey, didn't you read the playbook? RP ain't goin' to the Ukrainians for money. The Ukrainians are the new Dayjet. RP needs ORDERS to justify the Russian (and other?) money in these difficult economic times. He's dangling the prospect of a future factory if they play ball. (more homework! how realistic is this possibility and why?)
Fred: How do you say "dayjet" in Ukrainian?
Gadfly says: This morning I met with one of the casualties of the demise of Eclipse . . . and confirmed in my own judgement, that Eclipse is not coming back.
Can you tell us more?
The tbm also was a nice aircraft, but I did not feel as if I had the mission capability that I have with the eclipse.
Could you describe what mission you can do in an E500 that you can't do in a TBM? I can certainly describe the opposite, e.g., FIKI, or 1250 nm range at max cruise with 5 adults plus baggage.
Jack ...
don't worry ... you won't have to spell "Fpj" (фпж if you prefer ... ) in Ukrainian ...
they are broke and worse : the political situation there is so messy , that just the sun rising every morning is already almost a miracle ...! ;-)
they are under cash-perfusion from several International org. (completely wrongly , IMO) European Union (even more wrong !) and Russia (for what they are thankful , i would dump them !)
so i see the last event more as an other attempt in luring some US part to believe that he could do it ...in Ukraine ...
in ,probably , the same way than for Russia = not playing with realities , more with fantasies both sides have or would have about each other ...
a bit the same way than Eastern Women marrying americans = very rarely the guy for himself ... much more for the fantasies he represent !! (it works both ways !)
ATM :
yes , i think you're right !
the fpj has been "designed" for high-rate production ...
if only 60 are sold in a "normal" year , what is the point of FSW ?
about "more than 60/year in good economic conditions " i wouldn't bet on that too much ...
i would love to be wrong on this , but i deeply believe we are in for quite some times ...!
it doesn't need a Nobel prize to see the structure of job-losses means that few are lost in "producing" but a lot more in "services"...
giving away the price to be paid for sending jobs abroad in the last few years ... (the "they sweat , we consume" theory , sounds very nice but last very little ...!)
so in a place (anyone) where peoples are buried under debts , with no savings at all (in average ) meaning no more possibilities to expand consuming ...
in the said place , where the big chunk of employment are services (depending heavily on consuming ...)
if in the same place the state apparatus is totally sinking in all past debts and deficits , that it has no more option than to charge the boat even more (meaning more tax or more inflation or/and more problems )
i wouldn't bet on a fast-recovery !
TBMs_R_Us,
I leave it to you and EPx to discuss the finer points of mission profiles, but so the rest of us can better follow the discussion:
TBM model comparison
Socata TBM
(The "M" is for Mooney, who participated in the project.
"The manufacturer expects to produce 450 units in the 2007-2016 time period." That's about 45/year- good bread and butter for Mooney (who are currently producing, ah, 0 per year- again). Too bad they don't have it in their model lineup
"Beginning with the 2008 model, the TBM-850 is equipped with the Garmin G1000 integrated flight deck as standard equipment".
Nice!
Fred,
"a bit the same way than Eastern Women marrying americans - very rarely the guy for himself ... much more for the fantasies he represent !! (it works both ways !)"
A very wise analysis !! In the "Vern-acular" of the blog- I LMAO. (There is lots of "perception is reality" stuff going around- is that the same as "love is blind"?? :)
Dave:
The IP that Eclipse spent $2-3 billion on was either wasted (FSW, Williams engines, international manufacturing JIT) or has enrichened others- Avidyne's integrated flight deck, Aspen Aviation's brilliant glass cockpit upgrade and the "electronic circuit breakers" that are available for home builts.
There were grains of great ideas hidden within the mess but, in the great American tradition, the entrepreneurial engineers saw the great ideas and took those pieces with them.
The plane itself- nice little Baron like twin jet but with no avaiable engines it was designed for and crippled by it's Avio. No IP here.
The E400- tiny cabin, lies about FL410, that made it look better than other SEJs and "commonality" usually results in far fewer common parts than were planned. At least so little work was done that you're not stuck with Avio, but no IP here.
and remember, in Vernacular, IP stands for Idiotic Property!
Turboprop_pilot
Fred: I know that Ukraine is in bad shape financially. That is why it doesn't make sense to expect that they will be capital providers.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that they put in ORDERS for planes for an air taxi fleet. These orders, of course, would be based on projections, not a real market. To me, that seems to be the "Dayjet model."
The synergy between an Airtaxi operator (ATO) and VLJ manufacturer is that they can work together to dominate the market (whether it really exists or not, is another question).
No one would care much about a Ukrainian COMPANY that plans to establish an airtaxi network, but a Ukrainian government-sponsored entity would have some credibility.
When I think "Ukrainian airtaxi network" I think of a 'network' of one partially functional Eclipse 500 flown by Borat. It is called an airtaxi because it is no longer able to fly but does taxi.
TBMs pedigree
...(the airplane, not our fellow blogger, although I am sure his is equally distinguished:)
This lead to that...
(EVEN MORE HOMEWORK !! :)
Connect your 5-point safety harness to today's lesson in Aviation History !
Having mentioned Mooney (as participants in the TBM design), I did a bit of surfing around:
Mooney 301
Hmmm, powered by a TSIO-540...it would be interesting to know how it would be doing if it had not been morphed into the TBM. Not the "dynamic" nature of the aviation industry in the late 1980's- lots of sales/mergers/spinoffs. I also noted a familiar name in the linked article-
Roy LoPresti
Grumman AA5, Mooney, Beech Starship, etc- pretty fun career, it sounds.
LoPresti was also involved in plans to revive an old ERcoupe contemporary, the Globe Swift (first flight, GC-1A, 1942 (ERcoupe was 1941; both had the C-85 engine, which provided "performance that might be described as marginal", in the slicker Swift (105 vs 95 mph), and maybe "strainingly marginal" in the ERcoupe).
Globe Swift
History of the Globe Swift
LoPresti Fury
Nicely updated instruments- even some LCD's!
"It's hard to know where Roy found his inspiration...(or) being part of the team which built the Lunar Lander...However, I prefer to believe it came from the same hand that inspired DiVinci and Michelangelo. Machine as art". (Andrew Broom, where are you?)
"A timeless classic- The lines of a fighter, the performance of a Ferrari and the comfort of a fine touring sedan".
Well, substitute "dump truck" in all three places above, and you have a fine tribute to ERcoupes.
(But, there are a lot more dump trucks than Ferraris on the road- even more so for ERcoupes versus Swifts, thank you very much :)
Regarding the heritage of the Swift,
"Designed by R.S. "Pop" Johnson in 1940, the fanciful story of a Culver Cadet obtained as a "template" aircraft has now entered into popular mythology surrounding the aircraft's origins..."
Okay, that airplane sounds familiar:
Culver Cadet
(first flight, 1939).
It was an improvement to the Culver Dart
Culver Dart
Both of which were designed by, guess who??
(hint- the "M" of TBM):
Albert Mooney
-------------------------------
Globe Swift Airshow Routine
(It really is a beautiful airplane)
Turboprop,
One correction to what you posted:
Eclipse had nothing to do with the Aspen Avionics line beyond introducing the principals to each other and then treating them so poorly that they decided to leave and form their own company which, unlike Eclipse, is still around.
CWMOR,
Irony is pretty ironic...
Part of the justification for state and local funds going to Eclipse was to "stimulate the aviation industry" and create jobs.
Aspen did, and Eclipse sued them.
Another Futile Legal Antic by Wedgie
NM Economic Development Department
"I can only tell you how fantastic it was..."
Indeed.
"The city of Albuquerque is preparing to begin construction on a five- to six mile-long water and sewer line to Double Eagle. The lines will serve Eclipse and the other aviation business that locate there. City officials say they hope that Double Eagle will be home to about 2,500 aviation related jobs".
Guess Eclipse was an early advocate of shovel-ready spending.
:)
Vern all alone could justify a six-mile long sewer line.
Black,
That was definitely the "quip of the week" and IMHO a strong contender for "zinger of the month"
well, i will go out on a limb here and say that i do hope someone buys the whole she-bang. not for me to get my old job back, but to do things "right." i am also VERY interested to see what happens to a/c 266, the first and only plane with FIKI.
IMHO, the ONLY value Eclipse has is the EA400. i'm saying the ConJet because it really was a cool plane, "sex on wheels" if i remember what Wedge said of it. Vern should have built this plane instead of the EA500. how many single-engine Cessna's are out there? the whole GA market is based on SE designs. BIZ aviation is a different beast entirely...
but if i won the $200 million Powerball (yes, i know that isn't really enough $$$), i'd buy up the assets myself. the "hourglass" model is incidental: people who ALREADY have a plane will spend the $$$ to keep them running, and there is money to be made to support the fleet, no matter what. that is a sunk cost and it is a loss only if they decide to stop spending $$$ to keep it airworthy. like, how many people have a Ferrari 288 GTO in their garage? if they don't have the cash to keep it running in the "proper" OEM condition, they sell it, if they are smart. or else it sits in a garage for 30-40 years until Jay Leno comes in to save it. same thing will likely happen to a few EA500s that, surprise(!), show up X years from now.
i just never, never, NEVER understood the point of Avio or AvioNG. i consider this the same (arrogant) mistake similar to GMs use of a digital IP for the 1984 Corvette. do GA pilots really want all that crap in their plane? i'm not talking about all the bells and blinking lights i see in the 777, 787, A320, etc. could it be done TODAY, to produce an EA400 with only one glass panel for color WX or whatever you want there, and regular tried-n-true mechanical gauges???? i am assuming that a yes answer means the OEM is also smart to get such a plane certified for GA use only, not Part 135 commercial/air-taxi ops. how much money could that save, and then, wouldn't that help keep its cost close to $1 mil each?
i'm one of these 'old farts' that really believes in the basics of Lean Production: KISS, keep it simple stupid. i would even go so far as to try and design as many redundant systems to be mechanical instead of electronic just in case my new company goes TU.
the hourglass or "bar-bell" economy has been around for a long time now. but any logical profit-maximizing firm still has to make products for all price ranges. the EA400 / EA500 really belongs with an established OEM that has the resources to fix the mistakes. how many OEMs need a low-end/high-cost GA plane to compliment their product mix? i can't think of any. but IMO, there is also some psychology involved here, in the minds of the flying public: large planes=SAFE planes, small planes=not so safe; AND that large+expensive planes =SAFE, small+cheap planes=NOT safe at all. whether or not that perception of reality is true or not is moot. it's up to the OEM to overcome that perception in order for the air-taxi biz model to take off. THAT, imo, is a critical failure of DayJet and EAC, on top of everything else they screwed up on. since that perception is incredibly hard/practically impossible (in the short-term) to overcome, they should have focused on just the SE market...
e.d.t.
BT, Screwee,
I concur on the Zinger award!
(Rats-
I'm a victim of my own devices-
Again !! :)
Here's another shovel ready project I'd like to nominate Wedge for:
I hope he didn't hurt the shovel
Screwee,
Your blog handle brings to mind a fine ol’ joke from my Southern heritage. Two old friends meet on a bus.
Dwayne asks, “Whatya been up to lately?”
Bubba replies, “I just got my law degree and I have my first crim’nal case.”
Dwayne inquires, “What kind of case is it?”
Bubba responds, “It’s a rape case.”
Dwayne asks, “Well, is you representin’ the screwee or the screwor?”
EDT, if Wedge thought the Fugly Duckling ConJet was cool what do you suppose he would think of this?
http://www.epicaircraft.com/Victory.html
This is on my short list of dream planes (along with it's steroid abusing bigger brother the Epic LT). I have seen this thing up close and the prototype Victory demonstrated better overall fit and finish than any of the Eclipsii I have seen in the wild - no BS.
320 KTAS, up to FL280 (higher if they get group RVSM), 1200nm range, 4-5 seats and super sexy.
Last time I was out west I think the first customer Victory was coming out of the molds.
The Epic LT is a more practical\capable plane IMO with nearly identical performance and a lot more lifting capacity but the little Victory Jet is the kind of thing mid-life dreams are made of if you can't stand having a 'pilot cooling fan' or two attached to your jet fuel conversion device.
Can't imagine the Eclipse 400 was anything more than a stunt - an attempt to keep the dream alive. Wouldn't the certification costs be prohibitive even in a 'normal' economic environment? I'd be concerned about Darwinism... Eclipse, Diamond, Piper, Cirrus... Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon, Homo Sapiens.
The crime with the ConJet is the reported $20M cost to develop it would have allowed perhaps 10 more EA-500's to have been completed.
Who knows what EAC burned in the lawsuit against the Aspen Avionics guys.
Same goes for the suit against the bloggers.
Same goes for the Beach Boys concerts at OSH.
Same goes for lavish presence at NBAA, SNF, AOPA, etc.
Same goes for free pop and 'communication sessions'.
Understand, I know there is a need for marketing and promotion, but how much is 'enough'?
The amount of money that Eclipse spent frivolously could probably have put 30-40 more planes in the air, or even better been invested to improve producibility, or reliability, or vendor management.
In the final evaluation Eclipse spent money like the current Administration's stimulus efforts, and just about as effectively and with as much transparency.
The sad truth is that it's always easier to spend OPM.
BEG
You bring back memories. In 1981 I bought a Mooney 201 and planned a cross country trip with a stop in San Antonio and Kerrville. Turns out I left the day after the controller's strike but luckily had nearly all VFR.
In Kerrville they gave us a first class tour as a new owner/engineer. The 301 was under construction and they let us into the partially finished cabin. It looked like a perfect airplane and maybe stuck in my mind since I have owned a Malibu, TBM and Meridian! I never knew how the TBM evolved from the 301 and read your link with interest. Thanks.
Turboprop_pilot
Gadfly said:"the aircraft that achieved the highest production of all allied aircraft of WWII . . ."
According to my reference materials...
There were 9,923 P-38s made. This is exceeded by:
Grumman F6F hellcat 12,272
Vought F4U Cosair 12,681
Curtis P-40 Warhawk 13,733
Republic
p-47 Thunderbolt 15, 683
North American P-51 Mustang 15,686
Germans beat all these amounts with the BF109, 35,000!
cx650
You are correct . . . I was wrong. I stand corrected.
gadfly
('Caught in my own trap . . . 'got in a hurry and failed to double check. 'No excuse!)
jack ...
i know that you know ...! ;-)
just wanted to make sure no one could/would claim anything about what was written aftermath ...
you see when someone is desperate enough , ability to hang on the most improbable stuff become greater when the situation worsen !
The situation in Ukraine is not bad , it is catastrophic ...
and if it is related or backed by Govt : it makes things only worse
just for the readers (?) the president (the one who pretend to have been poisoned by Russia ...) is undoing whatever the Prime Minister (the blond with funny hair) and to make good-measure the PM is blocking whatever the president is doing ...
if RiP want to have a Govt-Backed-Order that would be spotless , he should go to Zimbabwe ...
there it would be a problem ...! ;-))
cx650
Actually, the Consolidated B24 Liberator holds the record for greatest number of any American combat aircraft ever produced . . . well over 18,000 units. ‘Not bad for a four year career (six, if you include “first flight”).
gadfly
Fred: Your explanation only strengthens my belief that Ukraine represents an opportunity for Eclipski. The problems in Ukraine are likely to work in favor RP/Eclipski.
If the PM and President are so much at odds they would each be desperate to obtain an advantage. A big project like Eclipsi and AirTaxi has the promise of jobs and prosperity (false promise, but good press).
CW,
The program issues you refer to were designed to raise money... without the appearance there was no chance of raising money - the guys who bought planes and invested were probably really impressed becasue only a crazy fool would blow so much money, unless it was really not significant for them... of course it was, and of course...
Well, you know.
Face one thing, and we all need to admit this - Vern was a world class money rasing machine. Say anything you want about him or EAC, but there was probably no better person to find unsuspecting wealthy tech investors and clients... to buy into his BS. He rasied tons of capital, and I sincerely don;t think anyone could have done a better job at this, than him.
This was EAC's one and only world class competency, and like Madoff, it was a huge double edged sword, so to speak.
Fred and Jack,
I was thinking about your Ukraine discussion, and the merits of a state-sponsored air taxi network.
Plan A:
The federal government sponsor air taxi service to congress and staff, as a cost-based service (charged to the riders, not to the taxpayer).
Hub 'em at Andrews, let them use any military base or civilian airport.
The "carrot": convenience and safety.
The "stick": make it illegal to fly on any lobbyist aircraft.
I figure this would require about 1000 Eclipse-ish aircraft, I should think (Mustang with extended range might be a better fit). The military already provides this service to a large degree- with much larger aircraft and much much larger operating expenses- which we DO pay for.
---------------------------------
PLAN B-
How about- if there was some startup airline, with maybe old DC-9's, and nice interiors- think Midwest Express, in the early days. Hub them at biz jet airports in major cities.
Then, use a fleet of Eclipsi to shuttle passengers to and from other airports in the metro area- use the "heavy iron" to go the 700-2500 mile legs, and then have a fleet of Eclipsi waiting like limousines to complete the journey on the other end (for relatively short "dispersion" trips of 75-200 miles).
Maybe put two a few big hubs in the system, NE, SE, Midwest, NW, SW, run the DC-9's between them.
A round trip would pretty much be an all day affair, so don't use the public terminals, but rather, taxi up to your own facility, with practical and comfortable lounges for relaxing, large and small conference rooms for meetings (enough so, to forgo the need to leave the airport), rental car outlet, good restaurant and coffee shop, sports bar, fax, color laser printing and binding (in-shop Kinko's or something) and broadband service, maybe a florist, etc. Nice enough you'd actually LOOK FORWARD to a layover.
I'm sure about a thousand grad students have already written a thesis on something like this.
Like Ross Perot said, "Washington's full of good plans, we just need to pick one of them, and stick with it".
--------------------------------
As a populist, I cringe at the elitism suggested by this "private terminal" talk- but am comforted that it might force local airport authorities to stop being the incompetent bureaucracies that they are, and force them and the airlines to "improve their service" - literally.
--------------------------------
I think United Airlines was going to do something like this, but was not going to use the biz jets for "mainline" rather than "feeder" service.
United Airlines Biz Jet Service
(This was the ultimate bad idea- they couldn't even succeed in their core activity- went BK, WITH $Billions of taxpayer bailout money
Airline Bailout, 2001
Here is a business model which takes advantage of the demand as defined by the FAA and NASA for air taxi services which were in parallel with Eclipse production. In order to get any government assistance you must begin with a catchy acronym such as SLAP.
Synergized Light Aircraft Pricing (SLAP)
This would involve subscriber based providers (existing air charter) and an automatic, web based flight planner. There seems to be ample although non-standardized air taxis already available at most small airports. Why try to replace these existing services with a fully integrated (jet only) air taxi? If the demand exists as is claimed by the FAA, NASA and DayJet; there must be some local air charter services suffering from terminal customer saturation. I can’t think of an example.
Yet all of these fully licensed, insured air taxis who pay their own rent may be under utilized. Rather than adopting NASA’s model (after all this isn’t rocket science) why not borrow from an industry which offers ubiquitous services through an owner operated network with some standardization maintained through membership?
Something akin to the Best Western chain where each property has to meet some basic requirements and has a star rating system reflecting service levels and amenities.
Realistically, the delta between a jet and a C-172 becomes diminutive at some distance. Having a single crewmember keeps the cost per mile lower and the Cessna does not have nearly as many parts suffering from cyclic fatigue. If flying from Key West to Naples or Boca Raton would FIKI or climbs to FL410 be utilized? What would be the time savings versus a lowly Baron or even a J-3?
Let the customer choose their own flavor of transport based on availability, capability and cost supplied by members of SLAP. The value adds would be from a web based planner and price generating program which could process payments and notify participating air taxis about their respective fare. Hang some sign at each affiliate branch which will become familiar to customers (a winged porcine seems droll and ironic) along with some casual uniform (a la Southwest) to make the operation appear equally coordinated, friendly and legit. The growth could be asymmetric since it relies upon a point to point service which already exists. The fact that Three Toe airport is not networked with O’Hare may not ever become germane.
Build in that loop for continuous improvement. On the web site you could have a button for people to report exceptional experiences (there was a friendly dog for the kids to play with at Three Toe) this could be labeled ‘SLAP’ happy! If the experience was of the nature which should enjoy nothing more than extinction, where a customer feels like Ned Beatty after a canoe trip; then supply a response page titled ‘Squeal Like A Pig.’
I wonder how the Russians feel with Roel going behind their back to the Ukrainians? Here they are talking about Eclipse in Russia and then after that talking about about setting up shop in the Ukraine.
modestan, sonds like you are waking up a bit... nice job
I call the ea50 air taxi plain, meeting the sour spot.
A jet trying to compete with cars is just stupid.
There's been more filings. PW (UT Finance) wants the 28 DayJet aircraft which they say belong to them. Also in the filing it states that DayJet defaulted on its payments in "early 2008," which I don't know if that is new information or not. PW points out that the aircraft are mortgaged for $35 million but are worth "significantly less than that amount" (which works out to $1.25M each). PW intends to sell the 28 aircraft for presumably less than $1.25M each, which they state is the purpose of their motion.
On a separate front the interim trustee made a motion to extend the period to accept/reject leases because the argument is that having such leases might make the estate more valuable. Given the current state of the economy those leases might be worse for the estate rather than better as a better lease might be able to be negotiated, but I don't think it hurts to extend the period to make that decision on the leases.
Modestan,
Um, er...
I for one, would NOT recommend Eclipse pursue a SLAPP-based business plan. Wedgie tried that once, and it seemed to (finally!!!) trigger his undoing as the Divine Emperor of Disruptive Technology
New bloggers (welcome!) might not realize, they came close to not being new bloggers, when the Clown Prince of CEO's (Wedgie) decided to try a SLAPP happy business plan of his own, about 10 months ago.
Checkout Shane's headline post "We Really Should Be Flattered" (Friday, April 18, 2008).
Within days there was good press coverage from Karen Di Piazza (Charter X) and Jan Brill (of the German magazine Pilot und Flugzeug (airplane)). ("Good press coverage"- meaning real journalism, not press release recital by most of the media).
One of the 29 bloggers on Wedge's Christmas card list, David (and Becky) Johnson ("Ringtail"), came forward to be the public figure in the legal action against Wedge's demented scheme. A long time blog participant, and general good fellow, Rich Lucibella ("Gunner"), was incensed with Wedge's attempted abuse of the constitution (and of the blog, the public, the aviation community, the investors, the customers, the suppliers, the employees, the tax payers, well, just about everyone Wedge was involved with).
Rich retained (and paid for, on his own, even though he was not on Wedge's list) an excellent attorney, Norman Malinski, who pursued matters to the utter satisfaction, and betterment, of everyone involved. Not only was the suit dismissed, but safeguards were arranged to prevent Wedge from launching more frivolous actions. A BIG THANK YOU goes out to Rich and Norman for that excellent support of the Constitutional principles involved.
I believe this was a substantial victory- Wedge's reputation as a sue-happy bastard was already known in the press corp, and the media legal departments, so in general no matter how preposterous the Eclipse press release was, it was obediently and servilely regurgitated with nary a whimper, save for the notable journalists I mentioned (maybe some others too that I am unaware of, but by far, it was a case of "news" by Press Release).
Anyway, RP came in, and Wedge was gone, and now EAC is gone too. Along with the investor's money, customer's deposits, and tax payer investments. The good news, maybe half the customers did get their airplane ("some assembly required", perhaps), and many people made friends and acquired skills while Eclipse was still operating. Let's hope it starts operating again, to help finish the existing fleet, and maybe get some of the customer's their airplanes (sadly, probably with no consideration of deposits already made though).
Anti-SLAPP Resource Center
Nice Try Wedge
Al Petrofsky's Eclipse-V-Does blog
DAve,
just how mich money dod Dayjet really have/blow?
They financed the planes, fully as it would appear... did they not claim to be the best air service start up ever, with north of $100M?
Where did the money go?
Some might wonder why some here have such a particular sense of affection for our favorite ex-CEO (Wedgie). Consider this memo, posted here April 21, 2008 (my, how time flies!!)
From other posts, I infer this poor schmo was responding to fellow employee's inquiries about why the customer's airplanes weren't ready. (Wedge wasn't content to have employees lie to customers- he wanted them to lie to each other as well). The victim in question was mentioned earlier in the blog with the high compliments, and about the time this came out, an owner commented on said subject's indications of "burn out" and disgust with the company. Maybe it was time for some counciling ling, a job transfer, or even dismissal. But in no way the sick, punitive tirade launched against him. (Which- was substantiated later in the blog, as fact).
(I have XXXXXX'd out names).
"It is with no small amount of regret and disappointment that I have to inform you of a situation with one of your team mates that developed over the weekend. It is a situation that will serve as a dramatic reminder of the importance for each of you of our confidentiality obligations to Eclipse.
"XXXXX, a member of the Customer Care team, decided he needed to share company confidential information with one or more of his friends outside of Eclipse. This decision was made in spite of the numerous requests I and others have made of everyone in the company to respect the INDA (Invention and Non-Disclosure Agreement) that we each signed. Make no mistake, disclosure of confidential information no matter how it is done: via email (company or personal account), in other written forms, or verbally is considered a violation of the INDA. Eclipse, unlike many other companies tries to communicate openly and often with you on the assumption that the information shared with you will be kept confidential. Failure to do so not only hurts all of us at Eclipse, but also our business partners (suppliers and customers) and their employees. Unfortunately XXXXXXXX did not apparently care about hurting not only you but also our partner, DayJet. In the communication outside the company XXXXXXX made claims (presented as facts) with respect to DayJet that were inaccurate and false. Even though the claims were inaccurate and false, the damage to our two companies has been done.
"So what are the results of XXXXXX's actions? First today he was fired and escorted from the building. Second we are filing a lawsuit against XXXXXXX for his violation of the INDA and the potential damages that have been done. And third, we may be pressing criminal charges against XXXXXX. The price of ignoring and violating INDAs is very high and permanent, as XXXXXXXX is now discovering.
"I wanted to get this information to all of you so that you may have the facts instead of the rumors before you decide you own view of this most unfortunate situation. Eclipse is a game changing company and much of our competitive advantage comes from protection of our trade secrets and other confidential information. That means that we all need to understand the obligations and steps we must take following this violation of the INDA.
"First and foremost, we must all abide by the specific obligations of confidentially we agreed to in our INDA's. Again, it makes no difference whether the dissemination of the confidential information is by phone, face to face conversation, email from your Eclipse account, or email from any other computer. As a general guideline if you are unsure as to exactly what is confidential information then simply don't discuss anything outside of the company. Please take a moment and review the INDA that you signed. A copy of the standard INDA is available in the Document Vault.
"Second, simply stated we must purge from our team all who believe that they are entitled to make their own rules or even worse ignore the agreements the rest of us live by. If you are so unhappy with me, your leadership or this company then please leave. There is not a single person in this company that can not get another job in aerospace almost literally overnight. For those of you that seem to enjoy hurting those around you I once again ask you to stop.
"I will close with a promise. If you are one of those people violating your INDA and do not stop now, you can be sure we will eventually discover who and what you are doing. And as with XXXXXXX, we will use every means available to us to remedy the situation and recover damages done to the Company. And the price you and your families pay for the violation will be very high".
(Signed, XXXXXXX, okay- guess who)
---------------------------
Wedge, If there is ANY justice in this world- YOU are the one who will be facing criminal charges.
I think, in a related context, our chum Gunner summed it up best (and initiated what would become Wedge's new title):
"Hey, Vern....did I mention just what a tool you really are? I really should mention that.
Gunner"
Well Said indeed, Rich !!
Where did the money go?
Much of their operating capital went into ASTRO, which I think was a huge waste of money. That seems to be the problem with DayJet/Eclipse is that the dump a lot of money into high profile "tech" things that really didn't deliver much value. Like with FSW it might offer some marginal benefits, but it certainly didn't cut production time to 600 hours per unit and it was one of the things that had to take time to get certified. The same thing with AVIO. For Eclipse FSW/AVIO stepped on Eclipse's plan to offer affordable aircraft and whatever time/money was spent on them only served to undermine Eclipse's stated goal. Getting back to ASTRO (where about $30 million was spent) that money would have been better spent keeping the company afloat while working out sufficient formulas to do the same thing in something like Excel. Eclipse may have been able to survive had it focused on affordability instead of focusing on flashy-blinky new tech. DayJet on the other hand might simply have been unable to survive period and throwing the money at ASTRO might have just hastened the inevitable.
The victim in question was mentioned earlier in the blog with the high compliments, and about the time this came out, an owner commented on said subject's indications of "burn out" and disgust with the company.
Yes and Vern used discovery from that case in the case against us bloggers trying to link the two. In the Eclipse blogger filing it basically said that employee was basically guilty even though the case hadn't even gotten to trial.
Hi Dave,
I never heard how things turned out with the individual Wedge was trying to BBQ- does anyone know? (I would suspect there was a counter-suit. And, I imagine Wedge succeeded, to some degree, in his larger intentions:
1) Intimidating employees
2) Harassing the public
3) Scaring the media
If Rich Lucibella had not stepped in, Wedge's tactics would have continued- he was already suing suppliers, and former employees, and he would have sued Google if he could have.
(Maybe he threatened to sue the Collier trophy committee too? :)
Nah, I'd give that to Eclipse. With technical leadership supplied by Oliver Masefield, and financial leadership supplied by Al Mann. Wedge's contribution to that- well, he does look good in a black and white tuxedo,
Wedge at Collier Bash
As a matter of fact, I think he looks good in black and white, period.
Wedge's New Flight Uniform
(Hmmmm, maybe that's a "flight" prevention uniform :)
CWMoR said,
The crime with the ConJet is the reported $20M cost to develop...
Yes, yes. And the Victory is nice too. I'm just so mad right now, I can't see straight. Watching a NatGeo program on the Titanic must be doing it to me. Vern = Bruce Ismay??? Hmmmm.... if the Titanic had FSW technology, could that have saved her??!
All of this is just so pointless now. Dare I even say hopeless to think ....pure fantasy, that anyone can (or should) resurrect Eclipse from the ash-heap of GA history. If only Vern did X and not Y. Or maybe A, B, and C. This is one of those metaphysical journies to nowhere: was it simply Fate for Eclipse to fail?
The ConJet pissed a lot of us off at the time too ....because we did ask questions about how/why that money was spent, when we so desperately needed it for other things. Read my earlier rant(s) on our lack of barcodes for SAP...
No, maybe the best thing for all involved -- even the current EA500 owners -- is for this to fold completely and for all 260+ planes to be scrapped. They might end up *saving* themselves additional financial and emotional costs with this money pit. AND, if they are really committed to owning a jet, perhaps HondaJet is the one new GA company to upset the apple cart and push thru some needed advances. But someone else made the point that Cessna certainly didn't spend $1 billion+ on the Mustang ....and I would guess the same is true with HondaJet. The final post-mortem should compare the costs to get all 3 planes to market to really get a sense of the cash bonfire Vern is responsible for...
e.d.t.
EDT,
If only Vern did X and not Y. Or maybe A, B, and C. This is one of those metaphysical journies to nowhere: was it simply Fate for Eclipse to fail?
Surely a top-ten all time line on the blog! Way to go.
I never heard how things turned out with the individual Wedge was trying to BBQ- does anyone know?
I believe it was either settled out of court or dropped. Looking at the NM Court records on the case it was up to Eclipse to file something after 8/08 about restarting the case and nothing has been filed which appears to me Eclipse either paid to make it go away or quietly dropped it.
BEG
You wrote so much about a federal airtaxi service (FATS) that I almost thought you were serious. I think FATS would be a niche application at best with a fairly low ROI, if any. I'm sure Dayjet looked into every possible means of generating airtaxi business. The result --> BK.
Dave says:
I wonder how the Russians feel with Roel going behind their back to the Ukrainians?
What makes you think they are going behind the backs of the Russians? It seems more likely that RP would try to build on what he already has.
As other have suggested, it makes some sense that RP/Russians chose not to complete the Ch11 sale because 1) the economic situation has changed, and 2) they could buy EAC assets for MUCH less in Ch7. Alternatively, if the Russians chose not to join in a Ch7 bid, then RP is certainly free to seek other sources of financing.
RP took a meeting with a guy who came to his neighborhood, probably for some unrelated conference or set of meetings. That's not much of an effort on his part. Ukraine is a big place where an airtaxi service might be appealing to some (even if 'EAC critics' know better), and maybe RP can play on political divisions within Ukraine (as described earlier by Fred) to wrangle some government support/commitment.
In any case, this meeting may be a sign of RP/ETRIC's continuing interest in Eclipse.
EDT: Yes, it's hard to imagine a revival of Eclipse given the competitive environment that they now face.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_very_light_jets
As other have suggested, it makes some sense that RP/Russians chose not to complete the Ch11 sale because 1) the economic situation has changed, and 2) they could buy EAC assets for MUCH less in Ch7.
That's what I think is the most likely thing that happened, just then it is a matter of what representations he was making. Roel stated to the secured creditors as of 2/23 that he was working on completing the Russian deal and I'd find it hard to believe that the Ukrainian meeting wasn't penciled in before then. It is actually my belief that the deal had fallen through awhile ago and Roel was looking elsewhere while making false representations to the creditors and that he also made false representations previously when he testified in court that he had the funds. I can't wait to see the transcript of his testimony since all that I've seen that he's produced to prove he had an executed contract was merely a letter of intent.
In any case, this meeting may be a sign of RP/ETRIC's continuing interest in Eclipse.
I'd be extremely wary of Roel in that what you say might be both true and not true. I don't think there is enough time for the $50M to have any factor in the Chapter 7, so I'm thinking Roel might claim that he already has the rights to manufacture and sell the Eclipse 500 in Eastern Europe and Russia without having to buy anything from the BK court. That's why I've been pressing over and over again that Roel has to be dealt with - both with his super-priority status with the DIP as well as ETIRC's rights going forward. Anyone who has plans to restart the manufacturing of the Eclipse 500 might find their sales cut into by ETIRC unless they proactively get some sort of declaratory judgment against Roel saying that he doesn't have those rights.
Roel is very tricky and would stab his own mother in the back if he thought it was in his interest to do so, so I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this $50M had nothing to do with funds for a Chapter 7 bid and that Roel will claim to have rights to the Eclipse without spending a dime to bid in Chapter 7. It doesn't seem logical that the Ukrainians would hand over $50M in a couple weeks when the Russians took years and Eclipse/ETIRC still hadn't seen a dime...there has to be due diligence, site planning and general beauracracy that at best would make this a matter of months to consumate a deal rather than weeks.
TBMs_R_US said,
Surely a top-ten all time line on the blog! Way to go.
LOL. thanks!! i shouldn't blog when i've had a few drinks, ahem, "adult beverages." BEG is my designated blogger when i've had a few too many...
e.d.t.
dave,
what do you do with EAC after spending $28M (plus notes) into EAC (ch 11 sales 363/ ch 7)?
Sell the parts and rights and hope to get some ROI?
Invest money in a repair shop, design shop, or a production shop
- that means try to "catch" some suppliers (or buy some rights) and lots of money - much more than §28M...
How many owners will drop the fpj,
how many customers will buy a fpj in one or even three years?
The ch 11 (sales 363) or ch 7 were deferred to a point - perhaps - of no return.
Julius
Jack :
about Ukraine , then we agree , RiP could try to use the shamble there ...
as you rightly said it : illusions and false promises ... the Ukraine Budget is already under close scrutinizing from several "lenders" (between "." as i believe , it is a "no hope of return" case) , i doubt very much they would happily see anyone putting theirs hands on the cash needed to keep the country together ...
as for Air-Taxi needs in Ukraine , in a country where you can almost screw any goddess for nearly the price of a soap-box , i think such need may appear one day , but i fear our names will be long forgotten before anything as such !!
peoples have to fix theirs life hardship first ... already most "dream" of taking an airplane once in their life ... so a private-jet or a Fpj ... is not even in their wildest dreams ...!
Dave : i agree with your statement ! where i think that jack is wrong : "may be" he doesn't take in consideration the "thing" that has done so much damages into the whole story : Pride
we have here the worse possible combination :
Someone who is foolish enough to be proud ...
(Pride is good only under 2 conditions = don't overplay it and crucial : deserve it !)
with an Ego that wouldn't fit in outer-space ...
(not very different than Wedge on such !)
with a sens of moral opposite to his Ego ...
(all the previous dirt-juices he has been in before show it ...)
BUT without a hundredth of the cash he suggest he has ...
(that is the real + of the guy = Never saying things : lead you in suggesting what you'll end-up thinking ...!)
as for what Russians "think" of RP , i can tell you : they don't give in too much ...
i said it many times : E-Trick was exactly the opposite of what they need in terms of Dev.
the Pdf you joined is a very good sign of the "state of art" Rp+Wedge used all along ...
"Leaders of aviation companies ..."
i can read E-Trick = what a joke !!
the joke is an empty shell symbolized by a postal-box in Luxembourg ! (where there is some other dozens of such "firms" in the same building ...)
Fred,
bonjour!
pride
That a good hint - why didn't the guys declare bk, when the damage wasn't that big, when all suppliers were on board and not completely annoyed etc..?
It's a little bit like the last ski downhill in the evening - I was a little bit tired:
Should I follow (with less control) or declare my "BK" and slow down just to have my skis under full control?
It's a question of pride: I cannot, sorry (I did, knowing of the danger of accidents although the pists were not crowded)!
It's up the the CFO, to raise the finger or to "follow a new challenge".
Julius
"he does look good in a black and white tuxedo,"
There was a time when his photo in a tux was showing up in various aviation pubs as he made the rounds collecting accolades and strutting. Made me think of Nero.
WT,
Are you saying Wedge didn't like playing "second fiddle" to RP ??
:)
EDT,
I'd be honored to be the designated driver- but would prefer to share the beer and call a taxi!!
"This is one of those metaphysical journeys to nowhere: was it simply Fate for Eclipse to fail?"
That's a "keeper" beyond mere zinger status !!
Dave,
Your ideas about RiP making claims to rights without putting up money are interesting. What happens to the contracts made by a BK company when the estate is sold? In other words, what rights survive the BK?
It would seem at first blush that the whole purpose of BK is to wipe the slate clean of claims that third parties have against the estate. If that's the case then any rights that Roel bought pre-BK should have gone poof in the BK. Otherwise, how would one determine which contract claims live on and which ones don't? How could he possibly have a valid claim enforceable against the purchaser? If he says I have rights to sell Eclipse jets in Europe, how can he force the newco to agree to that? Can't they just say "go pound sand"?
You're probably right about the DIP and his continuing claim there, since that was part of the original BK filing. I guess that's between him and the senior note holders to sort out, as to how the proceeds from an estate sale are dispersed. That shouldn't have much impact on the purchaser going forward except for the issue of employee claims. One would hope that the employee suit would get some traction and end up ahead of the DIP and senior note holders, as would S/N 260 and any other such claims.
It would seem at first blush that the whole purpose of BK is to wipe the slate clean of claims that third parties have against the estate. If that's the case then any rights that Roel bought pre-BK should have gone poof in the BK. Otherwise, how would one determine which contract claims live on and which ones don't? How could he possibly have a valid claim enforceable against the purchaser? If he says I have rights to sell Eclipse jets in Europe, how can he force the newco to agree to that? Can't they just say "go pound sand"?
I agree that I am leaning toward the slate being wiped clean, but I'd be absolutely certain before I put tens of millions of dollars on the line based on that assumption. It really raises questions to me about the Ukraine because I don't think it would be remotely possible for Roel to have the $50M from that in time for the Eclipse BK sale. Given that, what other reason could Roel have for going after the Ukraine other than to claim he already has rights and doesn't need to buy anything from the BK state in order to exercise them.
As to how Roel could pull it off, I think the main thing to keep in mind is that contracts are being written and signed in multiple jurisdictions. If nobody counters Roel, he could claim under the law of the Netherlands, Russia or whatever country that he has rights post-BK based on that country's laws. I would expect that to hold up once the egg has been cooked and a contract has been signed.
I do think that some sort of declaratory judgment from the BK court would counter that if it is done before Roel could get something signed. I say that because it could easily escalate into a diplomatic incident where the Ukrainian government wouldn't want to slap the US in the face even it what Roel is doing is legally permissible by Netherlands or Ukrainian law. If a declaratory judgment was issued by the court saying that Roel can't do that according to the US, the Ukrainian government isn't going to want to ignore that given how politically-charged Eclipse-related matters have been. However, if the challenge comes after the ink is dried and the contract with the Ukraine is signed, then the Ukrainians can blow it off as being a day late and a dollar short.
Dave,
Very interesting! Sounds quite dangerous indeed. The contract may not be enforceable in the US, but if it were enforceable in some other country, e.g. Ukraine, then that could create a real problem for Newco if they wanted to do business in Ukraine. RiP could force them to the table on his terms. Nasty.
Makes you wonder what treaties exist concerning bankruptcy laws. Wiping the slate clean in the US may not apply in countries without some treaty or statutory tie back to a US bankruptcy. If this is true, even a declaratory judgement in the US would not necessarily be enforceable in such a country. Piracy on the high seas!!!
Having said that, I seriously doubt that any Newco would care about doing business in Ukraine!!!
dave :
i think you are overshooting the matter ...!
the "political implications" was more some BS coming along the way than anything else ...
yes etrick had some local officials in the pocket , but those officials were a very local and minor actor in nation ranking (Governor Morozov) ...
Governor in Russia = somebody who bear the blame each time something goes wrong , removed faster than you need to snap your fingers ...!
RiP's genius was to suggest one thing when state-mentality from one place is completely different to an other one ...
transplanting into minds the + of one place without the - in action as "true value" in an other place
...
playing on appearance is sometime very tricky , especially when the appearance fails to materialize !
About IP , i wouldn't be surprised if the papers (like Avio coding , etc) would be already with RP ...
in fact , i am quite surprised that the BK judge didn't have an inventory of EAC property made as soon as possible when the BK filling was made ...
still it would be a very interesting legal case to see who has got what and what rights ...
grab some pop-corn , the fun only started ! ;-)
TBM :
one question , if you do not mind ...
have you ever been to Ukraine , in the last 5 years ?
Having said that, I seriously doubt that any Newco would care about doing business in Ukraine!!!
It would be in all of ETIRC's territory and perhaps all of europe, just would be a matter of what non-US jurisdiction Roel could go to for a ruling. The Ukraine might only be where the units are manufactured, but any number of jurisdictions could rule on Roel's ongoing right to manufacture the Eclipse 500. It would be one non-US country where the units are made, but they would be sold to multiple countries. If for the sake of argument there are 100 units per year possible to sell, I don't think NewCo could afford to have their sales siphoned off with a competing entity selling the same product and having the legal right to do so.
I really think everyone has to remain very suspicious of Roel. Roel isn't advertising that he met with The Ukraine (I checked ETIRC's website and have searched the internet), but it is just the Ukrainians who are saying it, so it wasn't for a PR hype thing for Eclipse/ETIRC. Unless there is something up that Roel is planning, I don't know what other alternative explanation there would be for this...afterall, I don't think Roel could get the money fast enough to have any involvement in the Chapter 7. I guess Roel could do the I've-got-an-LOI as proof of financing, but the court isn't going to be fooled by that twice.
About IP , i wouldn't be surprised if the papers (like Avio coding , etc) would be already with RP ...
That's why I think all interested parties in Eclipse assets need to know what exactly they are and are not getting. Roel if nothing else could work on extortion by threatening to start up a competing plant unless he gets paid off. Roel needs to be taken completely out of the picture or else we can expect years more Eclipse drama.
Dave,
What am I missing here? Why all the foreign intrigue? Isnt Eclipse a Delaware corp? Wont Newco purchase selected assets (and likely no liabilities) from the estate? Is it more complex than this?
As far as knowing what one is getting, this may be a tall order given the slow and disorderly way Eclipse has died. Who knows what has been removed from the premises or destroyed by any number of folks wanting "compensation" for their hardships?
What am I missing here? Why all the foreign intrigue? Isnt Eclipse a Delaware corp? Wont Newco purchase selected assets (and likely no liabilities) from the estate? Is it more complex than this?
I'm saying whoever is interested in buying Eclipse assets better know this for sure and better yet to get a definitive ruling from the court stating as such. Many deals have been done in many countries, which have different laws than in the US, so I'd be very careful as it looks like Roel is attempting something as if the Ukraine deal happened that would be post-BK asset sale and as such wouldn't help Roel buy Eclipse assets.
As far as knowing what one is getting, this may be a tall order given the slow and disorderly way Eclipse has died. Who knows what has been removed from the premises or destroyed by any number of folks wanting "compensation" for their hardships?
All the more reason for a declaratory judgment stating that Roel cannot enter into a deal with the Ukraine or anyone else without the authorization of NewCo. Roel might have documents between ETIRC and Eclipse that are "lost" in the Eclipse files (afterall he was the CEO of Eclipse), but Roel has those files at ETIRC and is ready to go to a Netherlands, Ukraine, etc court to say that he's got the right to manufacture.
Do you have an alternative explanation for the Ukraine thing? I don't see how he could possibly get the $50M before the BK sale, so I've got to think that something else is up and the most logical explanation appears to me that since he'd miss the BK sale that he intends to claim he already has the rights without having to bid on them.
"Do you have an alternative explanation for the Ukraine thing?"
No - I havent been following all that closely.
"All the more reason for a declaratory judgment stating that Roel cannot enter into a deal with the Ukraine or anyone else without the authorization of NewCo."
I suppose that it is possible that EAC has previously entered into a deal allowing RP and/or others to use EAC IP to manufacture outside the U.S. and that this is not yet widely known. If this is the case, my guess would be that these rights will survive BK, and it really gets muddy if these rights were granted on some kind of exclusive basis. It is not unimaginable that Newco could be prohibited from using such IP. I am beginning to see your points.
No - I havent been following all that closely
As of the beginning of this month ETIRC is negotiating with the Ukrainian government to get $50M as phase one of a project that includes building a factory to manufacture Eclipse aircraft. I don't see how this deal could happen prior to the BK sale.
Thought/(Brain Fart) of the day:
Suppose RP already has the $$ needed.
? Better to keep quiet and not show your hand (or run up the bid)??
(I have NO information that supports that- it's just a thought).
---------------------------------
I am perplexed with all this Eclipse bid stuff.
1) I can not believe there are NOT a lot of sources, especially globally, for this relative pittance amount.
2) I can not believe there are that many smart investors out there- there must be SOME stupid ones, somewhere, willing to invest in Eclipse.
3) It also occurs to me that some other state-sponsored players OUGHT to be interested; ESPECIALLY China, and ironically, Taiwan. Maybe Korea too. India as well. Heck- irony of irony, maybe even Mexico (instead of sending jobs there, we'd just send the entire company). Maybe the Poles or Czechs.
Note: these are NOT alternatives I hope for, just observations on what would seem to be logical possibilities.
--------------------------------
Okay, the Brain-Fart-Suppressor / Anti-Spontaneity Filter is reactivated.
Aerospace Jobs going to Mexico
Polish PZL
(Hmmm- bought by Sikorsky in 2008)
Czech Aerovodochody
(Hey- these guys actually have a COOL home page !!)
"I don't see how this deal could happen prior to the BK sale."
Suppose RP had previously negotiated a licensing deal for the IP with terms that made this IP the exclusive property of ETRIC in the event of an EAC BK?
Suppose RP already has the $$ needed.
Better to keep quiet and not show your hand (or run up the bid)??
Roel had better tread lightly with anything he does within the US. That would be an extremely dangerous game to play and would cause RoelJet more harm than good even if the courts let him get away with it. Who is going to buy an aircraft from someone who is so blatantly dishonest? It would totally sink whatever theoretically possible Eclipse sales there were as well as scare off vendors and that itself would prevent manufacturing the aircraft.
"Brain-Fart-Suppressor / Anti-Spontaneity Filter is reactivated."
You can actually turn this on and off? Now there is a business idea worth billions!
Suppose RP had previously negotiated a licensing deal for the IP with terms that made this IP the exclusive property of ETRIC in the event of an EAC BK?
I'm thinking of any of a number of possibilities like that. I think Roel is the real wildcard and nobody will know unless he is forced to show his hand (via a declaratory judgment).
When Eclipse was alive much was made of regional production with two facilities to split demand between foreign and domestic sales. It already seems pre-prepped for Roel to claim that he's got the right to manufacture aircraft for certain regions. As long as he's not selling in the US and there isn't some declaratory judgment against him, he could probably quite defensably say that he's got the right to his factory in the Ukraine or wherever and can exclusively sell to various parts of the world outside the US.
Any number of scenarios are possible with Roel being an ongoing threat without having to bid a dime at the auction. Maybe he isn't, but the Ukraine talks should be reason enough for anyone serious about restarting production to know if they'll have to contend with Roel eating into their international sales. This is a matter of being safe or risking losing your shirt because you didn't do your due diligence. If you are considering tens of millions of dollars getting Eclipse going again, getting this clarified would cost a relative pittance. Then you could either walk away or go to the US courts to prevent this. A stitch in time saves nine.
"This is a matter of being safe or risking losing your shirt because you didn't do your due diligence. "
This is getting more interesting by the minute.
Here is what has been said previously:
Eclipse Aviation president and CEO Vern Raburn announced yesterday that Etirc Aviation is deepening its partnership with Eclipse with an equity investment of more than $100 million, an agreement to add countries to Etirc’s Eclipse 500 sales and support network and the right to manufacture the very light jet within its expanded network area...The agreement makes Etirc Aviation the exclusive provider of sales, customer service, maintenance support and flight training for not only the previously agreed countries in Eastern Europe, Russia, the CIS and Turkey, but also Western Europe and the UK.
AIN:Etirc Aviation Injects $100M+ into Eclipse
So whoever buys Eclipse could have to content with ETIRC selling to all of Europe and elsewhere. All the money that Eclpse spent on EASA only benefited ETIRC. ETIRC could apply a world of hurt to Harlow or whoever buys Eclipse thinking they're getting worldwide rights. I think all sorts of interested parties should be proactively going against Roel because they might find out that they're in for a big surprise. I most assuredly could be wrong, but it doesn't cost much to find out for sure one way or the other.
WT,
"This is getting more interesting by the minute"
"Curiouser and curiouser" !!
---------------------------------
Dave,
Interesting idea about ETIRC having secured, what I assume will be in essence, a licensing fee- I doubt if they actually "want to get their hands dirty".
"Here is what has been said previously:"
And this is only what has been disclosed publicly. One needs to read all the related agreements in detail to understand how big a problem this COULD be.
After a brief absence, its....
Snippet Time
1. DayJet Technologies is still extant and owns the Astro software. Applications outside aerospace are also part of the game plan.
2. The 'Ad Hoc Committee' (basically, the guys who now control the assets) have indicated a pretty short timeframe for the disposal. I'm reliably informed it could all be over by 'our' National Holiday. That would be 17th of March, for those of you unfortunate enough not to have been born Irish...
3. Murky waters ahead for the 'DayJet' birds. It seems that, once EAC went Chapter 7, all bets were off and they are now very much back on the market. This may destabilize several of the plans for buying the assets, as they represent more than 10% of the fleet, and almost 30% of the potential market of upgrades.
4. The EAC website continues to fall apart. First the press releases vanish, then the store simply shuts down. However, they still list 3 positions vacant. Hmmm, hardly what one would call a genuine opportunity.
Shane
And this is only what has been disclosed publicly. One needs to read all the related agreements in detail to understand how big a problem this COULD be.
Reading Shane's snippet Harlow et al better run - not walk - to the court to get a declaratory judgment.
My fear is that Harlow or someone with similar plans will buy Eclipse thinking that they can sell worldwide and then find out that Roel is opening a factory in the Ukraine and will bleed off 30% of their sales. This will damage NewCo severely and those who pre-paid for aircraft and/or upgrades will lose hundreds of thousands or at least go through major turmoil as everything gets repriced even higher.
Between the DayJet fleet and RoelJet still being in play, all potential Eclipse buyers better know what they are and are not getting or else all their calculations could be worthless. I particularly worry about current owners or potential future owners who could get themselves burt due to a miscalculation by the buyer.
"I particularly worry about current owners "
They dont seem to be worried - why should you?
They dont seem to be worried - why should you?
So far the owners haven't commented one way or the other about the Ukrainian developments and also I hate to see people lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Examining the “EAC” Website, I notice that both the “400" and “500" now have highly efficient “speed brakes” . . . both aircraft as demonstrated can come to a complete stop in mid-air and hover indefinitely. Amazing!
gadfly
(“Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice.”)
You FOOLS and DINOSAURS:
Roel has orders that cannot be sustained by a mere two plants, hence to visit to that hot bed of riches, Ukraine. He may have to build plants in many more countries with proven success of DayJetski. I heard that he is on his way to Zimbawi next.
Seriously, I cannot believe that the court would honor any pre BK claims made by such a conflicted crook as RP, who has clearly lied to the court already.
Turboprop_pilot
"I cannot believe that the court would honor any pre BK claims"
If he has a license and has paid for it, how can they not? If he hasnt yet transferred the IP, the court may not help him get it, but otherwise, are they going to reverse a transaction likely completed 6 months ago or more? If so, it would seem that he would be entitled to get any licensing fees returned - who's going to ante up for that?
Seriously, I cannot believe that the court would honor any pre BK claims made by such a conflicted crook as RP, who has clearly lied to the court already.
I expect whoever pursued a declaratory judgment against Roel would get it, but if they try and do this after Roel signs a contract with a foreign government to build a factory I think all bets are off and he'll claim that it is up to the european courts to decide (and they'll decide in his favor). If Roel isn't selling to the US, there's not much that can be done except to pre-empt him from being able to do that in the first place.
If he has a license and has paid for it, how can they not? If he hasnt yet transferred the IP, the court may not help him get it, but otherwise, are they going to reverse a transaction likely completed 6 months ago or more? If so, it would seem that he would be entitled to get any licensing fees returned - who's going to ante up for that?
I think the Eclipse drama will continue long after Eclipse BK is over.
Gadfly,
"both aircraft as demonstrated can come to a complete stop in mid-air and hover indefinitely. Amazing!"
I think you've inadvertently revealed the real R&D expenses at Eclipse- the patented (of course!!) Anti-Gravitator Levitation Beam Propulsion System.
(You didn't really think all that money was going into Avio- did you?:)
All those Russian mathematicians/physicists, what- working on a ticketing system? With a code name like "ASTRO" ?? S-U-R-E.
It is understandable that the Russians want to get this technology back in house- and quick.
(All that flap about Williams versus PWC engines, and the resulting "delay"?? We were all victims of Wedgian subterfuge, masking levitation system delays- after all, Wedge DID repeated say "the propulsion system is holding things up". We just misunderstood what he was really saying, and how accurate that statement really was).
Why didn't the Russian's keep this technology development "at home" to begin with? After Chernobyl, they've become a bit risk adverse- rumors that malfunction could wipe out half the planet. Where better to stage the trials than in the nuclear weapons research center of the western world- New Mexico- any inconvenient loss of half the planet could easily be blamed on "those rambunctious Yankee Imperialist ex-hippies atomic physicists in Albuquerque".
(This might explain why ETIRC only reserved marketing and servicing rights for the Eastern half of the world. Such untoward events would also have done a lot to "wipe out" existing EAC debt).
Since Wedge did NOT destroy half the world (only about half the cash in it), the Ruskies are pulling things back home for further development. (They are still a bit nervous about the "blow up the world thing" though- you didn't think it was a coincidence the "factory" is in Siberia, did you?).
One note of caution to Ken and some high time operators- the euphoric effects noted while flying the EA500, while sometimes erroneously attributed to mild hypoxia, are really the side effects of LRP- Levitron Radiation Poisoning.
Lots of shielding was installed (the substantial EA500 weight gain was never really explained, you know). The good news is, the LRP effects are temporary, and will wear off with decreasing exposure.
In fact, I expect there will be notably less euphoria with increasing AOG/decreasing Levitron exposure.
An independent development, which seemed rather puzzling, for it's peculiarity (ah, well, I guess we are talking about Eclipse) was the PhosTrex conundrum- given it's apparent dismissal by the fire protection industry, but yet it's installation in the EA500 propulsion areas- one can only deduce that it is some sort of Levitron neutralizing agent.
It is all so obvious now!!
Dave,
You've convinced my re the threat of Roel out of the US. Why would a declaratory judgement in a US bankruptcy court affect him outside the US? Back to my question about treaties and such. If he has those rights already, how can any action in the US stop him outside the US? Wouldn't the US bankruptcy court have to say that it has no jurisdiction as to deals done a year ago with a foreign party?
Fred,
No, I haven't been to Ukraine in past 5 years, or ever. But my point wasn't as to the state of the Ukraine economy and infrastructure. My point was, how many Cessna Mustangs are sold to Ukraine each year? But, a Ukraine based factory selling to all of Europe is a different matter completely.
Having said all that, I have to wonder how much of a real threat it is for someone to contemplate establishing a factory anywhere to manufacture FPJs, even in ABQ.
You've convinced my re the threat of Roel out of the US. Why would a declaratory judgement in a US bankruptcy court affect him outside the US? Back to my question about treaties and such. If he has those rights already, how can any action in the US stop him outside the US? Wouldn't the US bankruptcy court have to say that it has no jurisdiction as to deals done a year ago with a foreign party?
As far as a declaratory judgment carrying legal weight outside the US it wouldn't, but another foreign country's government might not want to ignore that that's why I described it as a "diplomatic" matter. If Roel starting a factory up in europe is seen as taking jobs away from the US and the US has already ruled that Roel can't do that, a foreign government might choose to stay away from Roel for purposes of international relations with the US. Private parties in europe could still probably do it, but Eclipse/ETIRC have been pretty big on leaning on governments for money.
As far as if the BK court could rule on that, I'm unsure and I think it would depend on the nature of the document. I believe the BK court can rule on most anything if it chooses to - or more precisely if someone brings a motion before it to rule on. Like right now there's two things before the BK court with the DayJet aircraft that Pratt says belong to them and the temporary trustee is saying that there should be more time to see what leases to keep. Also look at Roel himself as part of his 363 sale where he tried to get certain ETIRC contracts with Eclipse cancelled so Roel's own actions could subsequently be used against him if Roel was to go back to the BK court and say the BK court lacked juridiction. Also based on Roel trying to get certain ETIRC contracts with Eclipse cancelled, I would assume that any or all the ETIRC contracts could be cancelled. If you look at the 363 excluded contracts they go back as far as 1999 and it looks like Roel tried to steal the DayJet fleet as part of his buy. In any event interested parties should act proactively because I think if they act reactively, it would be too late.
Just as a side note it looks like Roel was involved with Eclipse since 1999. There are two documents mentioning June 8th, 1999 involving shareholders. I just noticed that now.
In the 363 sale Roel tries to get the "factory extension agreement" cancelled as part of his RoelJet buy of Eclipse as it would appear to be moot. However, that "factory extension agreement" could serve Roel's interests and he could even claim there's no Eclipse successor so he doesn't have to pay the $200K royalty and if anyone wants to challenge him on that they can go to the Netherlands or Ukraine and file lawsuit there.
Seeing how that Eclipse and ETIRC apparently go back to 1999, I've been digging around some and there was a post made here last year by Minority_Report which states that Eclipse was basically Williams idea and Williams "hired" Vern. This goes to what Steve Reed had said recently, but it still leaves many questions unanswered as clearly Williams got thrown out of the company he allegedly created and Vern has always been called the founder even when Williams was on the board at Eclipse.
All this talk of Roel reminds me of tales told to children about the 'monsters under the bed'.
He's toast, end of story.
Chapter 7, by definition, voids all contracts between EAC and the REST OF THE WORLD. There is no 'Eclipse Aviation Corporation', therefore any contract with that entity is null and void.
The 'Ad Hoc Committee' is the power in the land now, and all they want to do is sell what remains to the highest bidder in the shortest possible time.
Which they will, in the next 10 days or so.
Roel has NO action, against ANYONE for ANYTHING. His DIP money is gone, his original (borrowed) investment in EAC is lost and the time and effort, well, he can chalk that to experience.
The only possible way forward for Roel is to offer the winning bidders money (again) for the 'rights' to sell the bird in some territory, somewhere.
I, for one, doubt that he's that stupid.
Anyone who thinks differently is invited to review the relevant paragraphs in the 'Section 363' sale, as approved by the Judge. ETIRC had until 28th February to complete, which they failed to do. Thereafter, the 'sale' could be cancelled by either party.
The 'Motion to Convert' was not opposed by Roel either, which leads one to believe he knows he'd screwed up and had no recourse.
Roel is an 'ex investor' just like the rest of them, and with exactly the same hope of recovering money.
None at all...
Shane
As Shane says, " The fat lady has sung...."
That's why I've been scarce here....all the talk is jus' suppositions till the 7 sale takes place.
Then I'll be back to raise cane again... ;)
PERIOD
Bird strike problem for a single engine jet is much bigger than I thought.
there is good reason for a twin jet personal jet. I just found out that the certification requirement for the PW 615 is that it not blow up when ingesting a 4 LB bird. there is no requirement for it to keep running. in fact I heard that PW was thrilled when it passed the test .. the main drive shaft broke and the fan came off but it did not depart the engine.
the question is how big a bird can the 610 take and still keep producing substantial thrust? A sparrow? a robin?
A single engine jet will have real problems with safety. thus the market for a small twin jet is a reality at 1.8 million or so.
"All this talk of Roel reminds me of tales told to children about the 'monsters under the bed'."
do you know the 100% cure for this phobia?
(soon, very soon, you'll know what I am all about)
I was thinking "What would I do?" if I came into the owership of the EAC assets, which include the exclusive ability to support and upgrade the fleet. In evaluating any business situation I used my usual guiding thought: What would Jim Fiske or Jay Gould do?
The upgraded, modified and supported EA500 is worth, say $2.0 million. Unmodified and unsupported it is worth zero. Therefore, I would put forth a policy that I would support only those aircraft that had been through my EAC redux modification and "gold seal" used aircraft certification process. No mods, no gold seal, no support. The price of modification and gold seal certification would be set at $1.5 million per aircraft regardless of its present condition.
If an owner did not wish to spend $1.5 m then his aircraft would be worthless. Sooner or later owners would spend the $1.5 m to get an airplane worth $2.0m or they would sell the airplane for up to $500,000 to someone who was willing to spend $2.0m on the jet.
The point is that sunk costs are sunk costs. If Jim or Jay had the power to make the airplanes worth $2.0m in circumstances where they would otherwise be worth zero, then they would charge very close to $2.0 million for their services.
"If Jim or Jay had the power to make the airplanes worth $2.0m in circumstances where they would otherwise be worth zero"
IMO, no chance anyone, including Jim or Jay, is going to make this acft worth $2mm, and no chance anyone is going to spend $1.5mm trying.
"Bird strike problem "
You seem to be obsessed with bird strikes. Yes, there is a possibility, and yes it is remote. Tell me the number of engines, and I will tell you a bird strike scenario that will take them all out. Does 1549 mean anything to you?
Re. Bird strike problem.
My interest is in the viability of the twinjet personal jet aircraft niche.
I do not think bird strikes are necessarily a big problem in reality.
However having done a lot of marketing and sales, customers are not rational and I would much rather be selling a Twin jet at $2 million than a single at 1.4 or so. It is very easy to sell to a customers fears and that is why selling a twin jet against a single will be easy.
According to birdstrike.org there were 5900 bird strikes in 2000 which they estimate is about 20% of the actual number. This is a large enough number when used in a sales pitch will heavily tilt the sale of jets towards ones with 2 engines.
a question is what is the size distribution of the birds and how big a bird will significantly degrade a 610's performance. However I bet at least 20% of the birds are big enough to affect the performance thus 6000 bird strikes or so a year is not an insignificant a number when used in a sales pitch.
therefore I am not really concerned that the lower cost single engine jets will affect the sale of small personal twin jets to any large degree.
I feel that the twinjet personal jet is a viable market niche if it can be positioned correctly relative to the mustang etc. Whether the EA500 can live to fulfill this opportunity, is a good question given the fiasco now going on and the problems with AVIO
In fact if I was designing a single I would try to do an inlet configuration such as used on many turboprops, that would separate out the Birds and other FOD from the air going into the engine. this however will probably impose a drag penalty which will require a larger engine.Perhaps someone on the blog can estimate the penalty.
Whytech,
My point was that whatever the finished article is worth-- $2.0m?, 1.5m? $1.0 -- that would be the monopolist's price for the mods and for the privilege of being supported. The price would not be reflective of the cost of doing the work, rather the maximum that could be rationally extracted from the customer.
The price would not be reflective of the cost of doing the work, rather the maximum that could be rationally extracted from the customer.
It will be interesting to see what the different proposals/bids are. The owners are complaining about being overcharged, but it doesn't mean that they would be good at running the business itself (though it sounds like they are open to outsourcing that, which I was glad to see).
Turboprop_pilot
I'm glad you enjoyed the reading the background on the TBM development- I did too!
As a techy airplane nut, I find aviation history pretty cool. I guess you could call this "pop" history, as the models are fairly contemporary, which adds a flavor of pertinence and relevance- sort of "living history", as derivatives are still in service, and many of the designers are still alive as well.
It's kind of humbling to realize that the fine products we have today "didn't just happen"- but are largely based on the work of others (retirees) amongst us, just a few decades ago, and what thrilling and innovative advances they made, truly in the golden age of aviation, from 1940-1980 or so. (The more recent airplanes are even better, but the year-to-year changes are a bit less...disruptive- er, exhilarating).
Example: A reunion of the Cessna 172 design team. (I believe Obed Wells passed away recently).
Cessna 172 Reunion
(A modest design, but executed so very well).
(If only...)
BriklinNG,
"I was thinking "What would I do?" if I came into the owership of the EAC assets, which include the exclusive ability to support and upgrade the fleet. In evaluating any business situation I used my usual guiding thought: What would Jim Fiske or Jay Gould do?"
--------------------------------
Jim Fiske, Vice President, Advanced Systems
"Jim is currently funded by the National Science Foundation, the Department of Energy, and the Air Force Office of Scientific Research to adapt maglev technology to energy storage and space launch applications."
!!!
You mean I just figured out the secret Eclipse Anti-Gravitator Levitation Beam Propulsion System, using Levitrons, and now THIS guy is going to beat me to market? This is B.S. !!
(...Wonder if I can interest him in some Phostrex??)
--------------------------------
Jay Gould
"Jason "Jay" Gould (May 27, 1836 – December 2, 1892) was an American financier who became a leading American railroad developer and speculator. Although he was long vilified as an archetypal robber baron, modern historians have discounted various myths about him and evaluated his career more positively."
Hmmmm...
"It was during the same period that Gould and James Fisk became involved with Tammany Hall. They made Boss Tweed a director of the Erie Railroad, and Tweed, in return, arranged favorable legislation for them. Tweed and Gould became the subjects of political cartoons by Thomas Nast in 1869. In October 1871, when Tweed was held on $1 million bail, Gould was the chief bondsman.
"In his lifetime and for a century after, Gould had a firm reputation as the most unscrupulous of the 19th century American businessmen known as robber barons.
"Ultimately, he was connected with many of the largest railway financial operations in the United States from 1868-1888. During the Great Southwest Railroad Strike of 1886 he hired strikebreakers; according to labor unionists, he said at the time, "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half."
Yes, with contemporary business ethics, I can see why modern historians have "evaluated his career more positively" (relatively speaking).
:) ... or :(
"You seem to be obsessed with bird strikes...Does 1549 mean anything to you?"
No, but the number -6 does !!
;)
WT is refering to flight USAirways flight 1549, dual engine failure)
But I very much appreciate Beedriver's great post on the PW615 bird strike testing, and don't think it alarmist, and I suspect the marketplace results, and certification challenges, will show a preference for twin engines, but it certainly doesn't spell doom for SEJ's. I would say a typical buyer would pay 70% for a SEJ with otherwise the same specs as a twinjet. (Or, put another way, pay a 30% premium to get two engines. IMHO. This does not mean a twin would be 30% more profitable- I'd say given the added components, probably about the same profit- which would tend to induce manufacturers to "push" SEJ's, so the marketplace will be interesting in a few years)
--------------------------------
It would be interesting to see the engine price-volume curve- if a twin engine VLJ requires twice as many engines, will double the volume half the unit price? (No, but it will have an influence).
BriklinNG,
I apologize if I got your references wrong, which I probably did.
(But these two sounded like such interesting characters anyway :)
The word revolutionary has probably (definitely) been over used for the last decade in terms of general aviation. Oh, composites weigh less so the plane can go higher; or the fuselage is narrower so it can fly faster?! Are you kidding us?
Perhaps revolutionary was code for same ole stuff such as an executive suddenly missing the close esteem of their family before an organization is about to face another ‘challenge’.
Three years ago there was a forum (Vertical Reference) which was threatened with a law suit due to a commenter warning customers of a potential Ponzi scheme associated with flight training. That guy (fry) was treated like a sticky bathroom doorknob because of his posts. Time will tell what happens in the disposition of Silver State Helicopters (CH 7) and some 1700 students who paid in excess of 60k for flight training which was not completed. That excludes any of the collateral damage wrought by a registration number with the suffix digraph of SH (Sierra Hotel indeed).
Prehistoric (before internet) aviation disasters followed the same well worn path of the before mentioned. In 1972, John Luc was sued by the owner of Spectrum Air in response to an article he (John Luc) published about the lack of professionalism demonstrated by Spectrum Air at a local airport. The suit was received by a Marin County court approximately 30 days before a Spectrum Air jet (N275X) slammed into an ice cream parlor killing some 22 people. Some accounts regard this event as the greatest civil air-ground disaster until 9/11.
What does this have to do with the previous events? Spectrum Air was a subsidiary of Holiday Magic Inc., a cosmetics company which achieved some notoriety at the time for being the worlds’ largest Ponzi scheme. The owner was never charged with any malfeasance as he had perished crashing his P-51 at his home airstrip.
Tbm :
i understood your point !
but what i was trying to explain :
a few months ago (7) i went to Ukraine for an European Org. to confirm or dismiss a report made by a colleague on a Factory which was supposed to be build on European loan ...
the first report was quite negative and was speaking of "adverse effects of the many sides of laws practices ..."
so off i went ...
what i found was strange , You and I are more or less used to a certain set of rules and habits , in some places it is called "Laws" or "état de droit" or "Gesetzeskraft"... as A standard (one and only one , anything aside is called "state-security-reason" but not used often , unless off course you open a rights-negation spot like Guantanamo ...)
there , it is quite different : since the country is mainly divided in 2 "Ethnic group" (ethnic is a strong word , but i've got no other at disposal )
as you may know Russia started as such in what is called Ukraine now ... (the first russian capital city was Kiev ) ...
meaning now , about half (to make it simple) the country and its population is Pro-Russian ...
the other part is Pro-European (meaning in that Polish , as the second part used to be ...)
their political system is (as said before : a real mess !) they have a president supposed to be "head of state" for the whole country , but in fact only half of it(being pro-european) ...
and a prime-minister supposed to be "head of Govt" for all the country (again same problem of half/half and being herself pro-european )
as written before whatever the President is doing is blocked by PM , and in return , whatever the PM tries is blocked by President ...
then you have regional authorities who can lean on one side or an other in both matters ( what half of country [pro-russkyis vs pro-europeans] and what political side ! [Pres. vs PM]) often changing with the state of personal relations of the ones within each groups ...
then you have the local level , on which all above have a deciding power and influence on these locals , who in return may choose to apply or not a law , decision , wish , etc... etc... (off course often , they lean toward what is personal advantages for them !)
often such situation is called "Double Standard" situation , the double being what type of law is applied to you whether you are "one of the tribe" or not ...(as opposite in democracy where everybody is supposed to be under one and only one law system)
with Ukraine Triple or even quadruple standards are making more sens ...
that is the reason WHY , when you know the situation , setting a FPJ-plant in there is ...
at the best , a real good joke or a complete lunatics goal !!!
good one RP , make some more of this caliber ... that we can keep on laughing !!! ;-)
Monsieur Shane :
yes , i totally agree with you !
the latest move from RP is out of desperation ...
the Borrowed money to "look like" taking over EAC is long gone ...
only a new stunt to have the "die-hards" believe a last time ...
or in a simpler way , create buzz , make it look like many are interested ...
if many bids are made , the possibilities for getting back his DIP are better ...
so it is important NOT to provoke a study-case into revoking his super-rights in the BK , the best is to keep quiet while looking like trying to find a solution "in good faith" ... (what a joke !)
but make enough buzz around the matter for many investors (New victims) having a go for it ...!
as IF a factory would be created in Ukraine , WHAT would be the market for produced planes ?
Europe = trust in anything coming from there is like ice-cream left in the sun ... the 3rd of august ...!
USA= if the plane is made in breach of BK Judge = what cert. ?
Russia or/and CIS country = with what Cert. (again) not really sure the Fpj has anything of a career there after Etrick sloppy deeds ...
Ukraine itself ? very small country , very broke , not going to be part of E.U. anytime soon and NEVER before an eventual agreement with Russia first !!
(this is where the late Bush's policies made sens : play one against an other = no agreement possible between Russia and E.U.)
the baltics countries are already a painful enough lesson to be learned , not to have E.U. rushing into a bigger mess so soon !!
The whole Russian production/ Ukraine production is not worth getting worked up about. It is all just smoke and mirrors generated by Eturd in a failed attempt keep the scam going!
Even if Roel was given the whole show freee of charge, there will never be an another EA500 to leave a production line in Russia, the Ukraine, or anywhere else.
I will be surprised if even one or two more EA500's dribble out of ABQ, in some half-arsed, doomed attempt to relight the cash incinerator
Bird strikes on single engine craft:
Cirrus is adding a parachute. So there goes you're dual engine marketing advantage.
FJT, couldn't agree more.
All the hype surrounding the so-called Russian factory has had a funny smell since day one. In fact, everything about ETIRC has smelled since day one.
It all goes back to that BS about ETIRC being "headquartered in Luxembourg". That was all smoke and mirrors - nothing more than a mail drop. Along with "team" in Europe. What team? Show me the team! It was Roel, a couple of drinking buddies and some turkey in Turkey. What a joke.
It is possible that a couple more jets could be assembled from existing spare parts, but you'd have to ask yourself "why?" There is no market for them. The parts are probably more valuable as just that - parts.
Other than that, the revolutionary Eclipse can now take it's place alongside the hundreds of other aircraft that will never be built again.
The fat lady has sung. It's over. No one is left in the building but the cleanup crew.
One more thing, has anyone looked at the price of Mustangs lately?
How about a brand new one to be delivered in 2010 for $2.695 asking? Or one with 816 tt for $2.395 asking?
Sub-$2 million dollar Mustangs are right around the corner.
A long and snowy winter enveloped much of the United States. A recent conference on global warming in Washington, DC was hampered by record snow fall.
Could the initial concerns about climate change have centered on activities in Albuquerque? Think about it. The Eclipse cash incinerator has been shut down for some time now. The atmospheric carbon loading should be greatly diminished.
If Roel retains rights to the Eclipse 500 in Europe post-BK, what stops the new company from designating the Eclipse 500 with Avio NG 1.5 as the Eclipse 550? This new model presumably would not be covered under the terms of the agreement for the Eclipse 500.
However, my bet is that the BK judge will void the agreement as part of the Chapter 7 sale.
"One more thing, has anyone looked at the price of Mustangs lately? "
Speaking of interesting listings, here's an excerpt from an EA50 listing (which was just updated this morning):
"I Have $883,000 On Deposit/Will Trade Toward An Existing Plane.the balance owed on this aircraft is to be determined by the new company.current balance owed is 588,000 dolars. /make an offer on my deposit money or
Ill trade toward your existing eclipse"
Where has this guy been for the last 6 months? Hope springs eternal!
Shadow,
Irrespective of what rights RP could have obtained previously, nothing would obligate the purchaser to do business with him or honor those rights. It's a Newco with no ties to EAC's contracts. The only question, which is well answered in earlier posts, is whether or not RP could somehow manufacture FPJs in Europe. Even that would have nothing to do with the new owners.
Don't forget that the bird has pretty small target when it comes to hitting a SEJ engine intake, compared to the airliners wi large Turbofans (which probably provided 95% of the birdstrike statistics.)
Obviously sooner or later there will be an SEJ forced landing for this reason, but the reliablity of turbines, combined with the low stall speed, excellent gliding performance of all expected SEJ designs mean that the total system safety should be higher than the light twins they replace.
Not like any of this applies to the EA400. It was a proof of concept A/C. This means it was a home built built by aviation guys. Don't waste any dreams on this, as it is not even on the first rung of a certifed A/C ladder.
Twin jet economics.
in talking to one group seriously looking at building a personal twin jet the cost for two engines with enough thrust to fly 6 people etc. is not much more than the cost for one larger engine with the same total thrust. however that is not the whole story. The installation requirements for two engines for more parts etc adds cost so the installed cost for a twin engine installation is somewhere around 1.5 times the cost for a single with the same performance. other compensating costs in the other direction are the additional cost necessary to make the single engine airplane meet single engine requirements for stall speed etc. the company I talked to said their best guess for an airplane with the same performance adding the second engine probably adds somewhere around $150,000 to $200,000 to the manufacturing cost.
in addition If you look at the costs for the 610 vs the 615, for the 615 there is competition from the williams fj33 which apparently has slightly better fuel specifics. competition will help reduce the cost for the 615
It also appears that the 615/FJ 33 will be sold in higher volumes than the 610 as the 610 is a stretch to have enough thrust to power a practical Twinjet personal jet unless you try to design a perfect design such as the EA500. It appears that virtually all aircraft designs grow weight wise as they strive to meet their design goals.
as a note on engine thrust requirements, I think I remember that all the single engine jets either started with a larger engine or have converted to a larger engine (Cirrus and Diamond) in order to achieve their design goals.
The only question, which is well answered in earlier posts, is whether or not RP could somehow manufacture FPJs in Europe. Even that would have nothing to do with the new owners.
It would have everything to do with the new owners if the new owners planned on selling worldwide. Roel as CEO of Eclipse put all the focus on EASA, but if the new owner can't sell in europe then that is rather limiting when sales are going to be small enough as it is. This applies to Harlow but not the owners group as the owners group apparently doesn't want to restart production.
I'm not saying that Roel has the rights post-BK, just I wouldn't be absolutely certain that he doesn't have the rights.
shadow ...
yes RP could produce a kind of EA500 like ...
he could even call it "eclipsky 5.5"
but that wouldn't more than if a chinese come to ABQ take a few photos , give some franklin to an ex-employee to get some data ...
then goes to "chinchanchong-town" to try to reproduce it ...
the biggest rocks on the road would be "Image" (EAC destroy it beyond beliefs )
"Market" (unless they sell it for peanuts , where is the market ?)
more importantly : "Certification"
who would cert. this "thing" ?
whatever is the way , you can take the story = it only lead to nowhere !
so IP may exist , but i DO believe it is an Hyped piece of junk !!
who want to bid ???
yes dave , no one can be certain that he hasn't kept the data , code and would claim to have the Rights ...
but if there is one thing to be learned from this nightmare :
making planes is the juxtaposition of many factors and parameters ...
one missing , the whole thing may collapse !
if they couldn't cut it clean when they had money , legal ownership , talented peoples ,federal inst. pushing at the wheel ...
how could he make it on his own ?
pooof , the card-castle has collapsed ...! ;-)
so he will claim everything and anything ,but the result won't change a iota ... nothing + nothing = nothing !
9Z
It all goes back to that BS about ETIRC being "headquartered in Luxembourg". That was all smoke and mirrors - nothing more than a mail drop
i couldn't agree more !
i had the idea of going to see the whereabouts of Etrick ...
both in Moscow and Luxembourg ...
Luxembourg = just a standard place for "all shadowy business" , not a single sign of an Etirc corp. in any other form than a postal box !
i asked the post-man (In Lux. very often they are a "bit disabled" used to do something basic = take letters ; put letters in the box ! so if you know how to take them : you can learn a lot ...) all the "Firms" at this address are not even taken as "addresses" but as a "Box Number" ...
the mail is only sorted once in the office !
Moscow : it is in the kind of Hotel , which has been transformed into office-spaces ...
so on the side of Etirc ( which was at some point supposed to invest about 2 to 4 Billions US$ in Russia ) on the same floor , where is a travel-agency (specialized in Egypt cheap whatever !)
a guy trying to buy and re-sale Computer Hardware "made in China"
and a few other offices in the same ...!
the building itself look to be a "Stalin-era" with a lift deserving the few floors ...
lift probably there since building erection , so it is better to have some faith in anything Before boarding it !!!
but i am writing this ... who am i to say such things ???
RP is so much in connection with Russian Govt ...
that somewhere there is a mistake ! ;-))
Mr. Reed,
What on earth were you guys smoking/ingesting/injecting when you formulated this plan of yours? You are asking customers who were already raped by EAC to assume the position for a second go round. I understand you all have to make money, however you are presenting yourselves as the ghost of EAC past. You gentlemen may say you have the support of some of the customers, however I doubt many will follow their lead, unless of course they are lemmings. You are asking for a lot of faith with a lot of our money being put at risk AGAIN. I don't know if you got the memo, but since EAC went chapter 7 and there are not many staffers left, the Kook Aid plant had to go offline as well. I think you guys are going to have to do a bit better than this or you just may be reading chapter 7 of this very exciting book yourselves. Humbly, of course.
Omsiv, and any other owners, please contact me if you are interested in alternatives to the Harlow plan.
I have been looking into options outside the Harlow or other asset acquisition plans.
ColdWetMack@gmail.com
how do you cure fear of 'monsters under the bed'?
Cut off the legs of the bed
What on earth were you guys smoking/ingesting/injecting when you formulated this plan of yours?
Per Forbes, Harlow is trying to partner with the Owners Group. They also say they don't have all their financing lined up. They also claim that Eclipse Acquisition will employ 400-600, but Harlow itself only employs 200. So yes, be very wary of anyone seeking six figures down (and that includes the Owners Group) unless you have something to show for it first or else you could find yourself deeper in the hole.
I don't know if you got the memo, but since EAC went chapter 7 and there are not many staffers left, the Kook Aid plant had to go offline as well.
EPx,
I considered correcting you on your spelling, until I realized that my preference is for the one you came up with.
Would you like a straw or napkins?
DI
"when you formulated this plan of yours?"
So is there a definite plan which has been presented? If so, can someone post the details?
Beedriver said...
Twin jet economics.
Don't forget liability.
An engine failure in a twin jet is... a maintenance event. This is revenue for the engine maker.
An engine failure in a single jet is... a lawsuit in many cases. This is a burden to the engine maker.
The engine maker will know this and charge to cover their exposure for single engine installations. The airframe maker has to do the same.
Don't apply piston thinking to jets. The advantages of a piston single over a piston twin simply don't translate to jets. There is no compelling advantage to a single jet over a twin one. What marginal benefits may exist in operating cost are negated by operational and safety issues. If the single is limited to FL250 (which is very likely), then it costs more to operate than the twin.
So is there a definite plan which has been presented? If so, can someone post the details?
I think EPx is talking about the $300K down and $1000 an hour.
Assuming there is no NDA involved, I agree with Whytech and would love to see the details of the Harlow offer, although it is easy to guage from Omsiv's response that it was not pretty.
Hopefully Shane's inbox will see something from Friedman himself as it seemed at some point last week that might occur - if not, I bet it is only a matter of time.
I will provide a critique of the plan for free if a copy somehow finds my inbox: ColdWetMack@gmail.com.
"I think EPx is talking about the $300K down and $1000 an hour."
Has this actually been proposed to owners as a "plan?" If so, EPOSMIV's comments are far too generous.
Given all that has happened to the poor owners, I would think that any appealing plan would begin by extending $300,000 in maintenance credit to owners. IOW, dont pay us until the bill gets to $300K.
I am sure one of you guys likes to play on the owners site every once in awhile. You can find and post it. And excuse me DI Kool Aid.
And excuse me DI Kool Aid
I like Kook Aid better too
Flyger, what then of the TBM compared to a C-90 or the PC-12 compared to a B-200?
It is not even fair to compare the Epic LT to any of those - something I counseled a consulting client about when asked about flying a single-engine turbine experimental over moutains or water at night.
I have no fear of the SEJ concept, just as I have no fear of single engine turboprops. Now helicopters, that is another thing altogether but I think the SEJ's will do remarkably well as a step up from the high-end piston products.
I believe operators will accept some of the operating limitations of an SEJ in exchange for ramp appeal (compared to pistons) as well as the speed and range offered by these new designs (compared to pistons).
One of the fundamental flaws of the EA-500 promotionally was comparing it to other established jets and established jet makers IMO. The smart SEJ money will be made as a step-up from piston products, perhaps skipping the turboprop as a transition point.
The PiperJet as an example claims a 17:1 glide ratio, and with all the SEJ's designed to perform like high-performance prop-jobs in the pattern I think we are making way too much out of the birdstrike threat as it relates to SEJ operations.
The real question is which SEJ will actually get certified and make it to market first?
"Now helicopters, that is another thing altogether"
The safety record for single engine turbine helicopters shows an accident rate less than 1/3 the rate for piston helicopters.
I agree WT that a turbine helo is safer than a piston helo, I am only saying I subscribe to the 'more is better' theory when flying an aircraft described as 10,000 spare parts flying in close formation - with apologies to any resident rotorheads.
"I subscribe to the 'more is better'
I used to think this way until I went over to the dark side.
When I moved over to helicopters a few years ago, I trained with two very high time (20+K and 40+K hours respectively) instructor pilots. One had experienced only one incident (and no accidents) in 34 years: a turbine engine failure in a new helo with 17TT - no damage, no injuries. The other has seen and done it all with helos and no battle scars. So, I am making peace with the "parts in loose formation" idea.
Blogger ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Flyger, what then of the TBM compared to a C-90 or the PC-12 compared to a B-200?
Two things:
The turboprops operate at about the same altitude whether 1 or 2 engines. Jets do not as the twins go FL410 and the singles are limited to FL250.
With one engine out, the twin turboprops have significant asymmetric thrust. The twin jets have little asymmetric thrust. This makes the traditional danger of prop twins, engine out control problems, irrelevant in jets.
So a single turboprop has some benefits. A single jet, not so much. The only people who want SEJs are pilots thinking they have the same benefits as single pistons or single turboprops. Now that we are starting to have numbers on things like the SJ50, it should be much more obvious that the SEJ is crippled by being a single.
Not sure I'd say crippled but I understand where you are coming from Flyger. The SJ-50, the D-Jet, the PiperJet, all have specific design points, and they vary quite a bit in terms of speed (250-360 KTAS) and altitude (FL250-350). Where the plane is designed to operate will impact what it costs ($1.5-3.5M).
My point is that there may well be a business space for the SEJ's if they can occupy profitably the perch they would occupy from a performance standpoint, between piston products and multi-turbine products.
All the recent SEJ discussion seems to have been spawned by the notion that someone ( Wedge maybe? ) would be interested in purchasing the ECJ/Eclipse 400 rights at auction. This whole notion is a non-starter at so many levels that it boggles the mind:
- There is no existing fleet with which to extort usurious fees from owners to keep airborne.
- The Frankenjet was a prototype, with commonality to the FPJ limited to wing, landing gear, and AvioNG. Fuji might well rain on the 'wing' parade, and it would be hard to credibly disagree that AvioNG is an albatross rather than an asset.
- A potential investor would be confronted with the cost of not only developing and certifying the aircraft, but also of starting a manufacturing, support, and training operation from scratch - just like Wedgeco 1.0.
And that hasn't gone so well.
DI
Jackrabbit,
"Cirrus is adding a parachute. So there goes you're dual engine marketing advantage."
It would be nice if the parachute came with GPS-coupled steering, to land you at the nearest Cirrus dealership, to expedite replacement of the written off airframe.
Perhaps the chute can be recycled though :)
(The single engine airframes are total writeoffs, I'm told, probably a balancing act- the chute is small enough it won't get ripped off in a higher speed deployment- which is a GOOD thing, but small enough the sink rate is pretty high- survivable with crush-zone structure, but the afteraffects are permanent- for the airplane, not the occupants- thankfully!).
Twin jet economics.
my real point is that there are distinct market niches that can be exploited by a manufacturer if they position their airplane right and The Single engine personal jet is one niche as is the twin engine Personal jet is another. they will appeal to different buyer groups.
frankly I think a single engine personal jet could be my next choice after the Aerostar I am now flying for safety considering everything including price if I bought a jet.
The SEPJ is safer probably than the safest piston twin of which I own one. my Aerostar 602P 700 is the safest piston twin I have flown. it will actually climb with one windmilling, gear down, and approach or departure flaps (20 deg) and will climb on one at 500 FPM cleaned up. It also will not come apart in the air if you hit rough air unlike the Malibu series. The SEPJ will be safer because of the higher reliability and simpler operation of a turbine and you can say the same thing for the TBM.
the next level of safety and capability is probably a jet with two engines.
however if you want the best a piston twin has to offer, the price for a Aerostar 702 with everything to new specs, engines glass panel avionics, etc 6700 lb gross weight that can carry full fuel and six people legally is $700,000 and it will cruise at 220 to 250 knots in the low 20's
Probably however my next airplane will be an Aero Commander 690 with -10 engines assuming I can find the money. It is just fun having two throttles.
Note, I hope Piper is smart enough to build their SEJ strong enough to survive rough air so it can compete with the TBM. The TBM is much stronger you never hear of them breaking up after hitting wake turbulence or in bad weather like the Malibu series.
Beedriver said...
The Single engine personal jet is one niche as is the twin engine Personal jet is another. they will appeal to different buyer groups.
The SEJ appeals to piston twin drivers (like yourself) who think piston economics work for jets.
The SEPJ is safer probably than the safest piston twin of which I own one.
Almost certainly true. But why fly a single when a twin is the same cost or cheaper? Unlike piston airplanes, being a jet single doesn't save you anything.
Probably however my next airplane will be an Aero Commander 690
What an odd choice for someone concerned about in flight breakup.
"Now helicopters, that is another thing altogether"
The safety record for single engine turbine helicopters shows an accident rate less than 1/3 the rate for piston helicopters"
WRONG! This is only true if you consider all the old, crappy, and unreliable piston helicopters. This includes most helicopters. This would include things like a Bell 47 and the experimental ships such as the Rotorway and mini-500s.
If you look at the Robinson helicopters you will find they are FAR more reliable than turbines. Because the engines are derated they are far more reliable. I believe there has been only one reported engine failure in the R44 and that was not an actual failure. It was reported as such because the pilot was simply trying to cover his rear.
If you compare Jet Ranger accident stats to R44 accident stats well....there really isn't a comparison.
Beedriver said... A single engine jet will have real problems with safety.
So could you please explain how a $1.2M-class SEJ like the DJet and SJ50 will be less safe than any other new $1.2M-class pressurized planes?
Oh, wait, as far as new, the only alternative is the Malibu Mirage. Lets not even talk about Malibu and safety in the same sentence, shall we?
"WRONG! This is only true "
First you say its wrong, and then you say its true. Show me the numbers for all and fatal accident rates (per 100,000 hours)for Robinsons.
Beedriver said...
Bird strike problem for a single engine jet is much bigger than I thought.
How big is it? How many jets had a an non-precautionary shutdown of a fanjet in flight after a bird strike that took out one engine, but not the other?
And after coming up with the above figure, that would represent the lost of power probability delta of a single vs twin jet after a bird strike....
Apply a fatal accident ratio for single engine planes after loss of power.
That will tell you the fatal accident rate for SEJ due to having a bird strike and not having a second engine that would survive.
Lets just say that it will be a very small rounding error in the fatal accident statistics and leg go of it, shall we?
Beedriver said... the question is how big a bird can the 610 take
Why is that "the" question?
First, no single engine jet will use an engine as small as the 610 or even the 615. They will have at least a JF33-class powerplant.
Second, I am sure you are aware that when flying through a flock, the probability of ingesting a bird in a a turbofan plane is proportional to the combined area of all fans in the plane and the combine thrust.
Therefore, less smaller fans = a much reduced probability of a bird strike for the same scenario.
In addition, engine placement plays a large role. It is a well documented fact, that the #2 engine of an DC10/MD11/L-1011/etc is much less likely to ingest birds than the wing mounted engines.
I'm quite certain that engine placements like those on the Cirrus Jet will likely prove to have natural bird deflection characteristics.
If I were flying light jets, I'd be worried about taking a bird on the windshield much more than the engine. About 1,000 times more worried.
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