Earlier today, the 'senior note holders' filed a Motion to Convert to Chapter 7, which will give them effective control of the assets of Eclipse Aviation Corporation. This was accompanied by a Motion to Shorten, which leads one to believe that these note holders do not anticipate opposition from ETIRC. This ends the Chapter 11/Section 363 process, which began on the 25th of November last.
There will clearly be ongoing coverage of this, both here and in the wider media. I'll update the headline and provide ongoing information as soon as it reaches me here in Ireland.
Finally, for now, let's remind ourselves of the debt we all to to Stan and Rich, the former for starting the ball rolling and the latter for defending us in our hour of need.
Shane
UPDATED Wednesday 25th 14.25 GMT
Dear Eclipsers:
We are very sad to report unexpected news today. Despite the efforts of many people at EclipseJet Aviation and ETIRC to obtain necessary funding to close the purchase of the assets of Eclipse Aviation, the closing of the sale transaction has stalled and our company is out of time and money. Given the dire circumstances in today’s global marketplace and the lack of additional debtor-in-possession funding, the senior secured creditors of the Company filed a motion today in US Bankruptcy Court in Delaware to convert the Chapter 11 case to a Chapter 7 liquidation. This action, under the circumstances, is being supported by the directors of Eclipse.
What does this mean for each employee? The furlough converted to a layoff effective Thursday, February 19, 2009. Most regrettably, you will not be paid the paycheck due on Thursday, March 5, 2009 nor is any vacation pay available. You may have certain rights to seek payment in the bankruptcy proceeding; you may receive additional information about that from the bankruptcy court.
As it stands today, all benefits coverage will end at midnight on February 28, 2009. COBRA benefits will be available for the month of March if you wish to sign up for medical, dental and/or vision coverage. Later this week you will receive a termination package in the mail which will have information regarding all of your benefits.
The Bankruptcy Court will likely appoint a Chapter 7 trustee in our case within 30 days, at which time the trustee will control all assets of Eclipse and will seek to sell them. We cannot comment at this early stage on any liquidation path that might be pursued or possible interest from potential buyers.
We have times set aside on Wednesday and Thursday for each department to come in and collect their personal belongings in their cubes.
Building Schedule for Employee Access
Ø HQ Wednesday 10 to noon
Ø SP 2 Wednesday 1pm to 3pm
Ø SP 3 Wednesday 3pm to 5pm
Ø SP 4 Thursday 9am to 11am
Ø SP 9 Thursday 9am to 11am
Ø SP 10 Thursday 1pm to 3pm
Ø DEII Thursday 1pm to 3pm
Ø SP 11 Thursday 3pm to 5pm
Ø Gainesville Wednesday 10am to noon
Ø Albany Wednesday 10am to noon
All of the executive management team at Eclipse gives you our most sincere and heartfelt thanks for your tenacity and perseverance in trying to deliver this dream we know as the Eclipse 500. We gave it one heck of a try. We are sorry that it came to this today.
Mark Borseth
Michael McConnell
246 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 246 of 246For any former Eclipser's with 5yrs of Catia/Solid Works experience, a program I am familiar with and like quite a bit is looking for a solid Mechanical Engineer.
Drop me a line @ ColdWetMack@gmail.com
Imagine if one of we luddite dinosaur types could make it work?
You can't.
WCSYCE :)
Herc, thanks I will be looking for Shane to accept and exchange our email address's Talk with you soon !!
Herc,
You (and anyone else who wants) can email me, with the purpose of your contact in the 'subject' line and a brief note of who you wish to connect with, to
eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
Just remember, I'm in GMT, and allow a respectable period for a response.
Especially on Friday nights, when I tend to visit my local pub....
Shane
Here's my kind of 'troublemaker' who clearly want's to shine a light into the darker crevices of Eclipse and the City of ABQ. Hopefully, some of the people who voted for these politicians will read that tasty little piece.
And another thing. My appeal for the 'whereabouts' of our favorite 'ex CEO' provided some fascinating news. It seems Wedgie still fancies his chances in the Very Costly Jet market and is tying to gather support for a re-entry.
Here's hoping he gets some truly deluded people to back him. I can see it now.
'Cockroaches v Wedge, the Final Showdown'.
It'll be a blockbuster, I'm telling ya'.
Shane
Freedom,
Sorry, I only got that much info, nothing more specific. That's one of the reasons it's a Snippet.
If I could nail down 'supplier x' won't be willing/able to furnish parts in future, and I could confirm this, I'd plaster it up as a headline post.
But I can't.
Another supplier tells me that the loss in Eclipse, combined with a general downturn in business, will likely cause closure. They are trying, very hard, to find other work. Do you think I'd name this company, even if I could?
Not a chance. I'm in business myself, and I'd extend the courtesy of keeping my mouth shut to anyone who's making an honest effort in trying times.
They are so unlike the scammers managing EAC, who tried VERY HARD to rob suppliers, staff, customers, owners and depositors of as much money as they could.
And very nearly got away with it.
These guys are properly in the crosshairs of this blog...
Shane
We can supply Structural and landing parts under "owner operator". Also, if drawings are provided we can produced "enhanced" parts under PMA Identicality. There are certain components that just dont make sense due to risk, cost etc etc.. Anyway this may be an avenue for some owners to keep their aircraft flying.
Shane, if they feel comfortable, drop me a line on the struggling supplier(s) - I may be able to connect them to stronger programs/projects.
The Type Certificate is managed by the Fort Worth Aircraft Certification Office which is another reason to move the whole maintenance operation to a good FBO in the Dallas area. They could provide maintenance with a minimal increase in their insurance rates and work closely with the ACO office. A large FBO would have organizational knowledge of how Gulfstream, Bombardier, and Dassault approach the same problems. The Eclipse basic airplane and engine combination seem OK. It is a matter of undoing all the over-computerized systems and replacing them with reliable off-the-shelf items where possible with the blessing of the FAA. After a final usable configuration is achieved and the existing airplanes modified, the restarting of the line could be addressed. It is doable if everyone works together.
Well stated ASM.
ASM wrote:
It is a matter of undoing all the over-computerized systems and replacing them with reliable off-the-shelf items where possible with the blessing of the FAA.
Nonsense. You can't UNDO Avio. The plane was built around it. Look at the panel space. Look behind the panel. Look where the FADEC's are and how they interface with the throttle quadrant. Look where the electrical control is. Look at the warning systems.
Strip all this out. Delete a seat for the avionics cabinet. Botch up a CB panel. Pay PWC to add permanent magnet alternators and make a real EEC. Pay PWC to certify it, and then start your certification flight test program. All this to support <260 airframes, sold to the people who wanted the cheapest jet? No way!
Lay off the Kool Aid people. This parrot won't voom if you put 40 million volts through it.
After a final usable configuration is achieved and the existing airplanes modified, the restarting of the line could be addressed. It is doable if everyone works together.
Nonsense. This is subprime mortgage thinking. If giving money to people who won't pay it back is a bad idea, we'll give lots of money to lots of people who won't pay it back, and then statistically prove it is a rock solid investment. Duh!
Sad for everyone who got caught up in this nonsense, but the smoke machines have been turned off, the curvy mirror are gone.
Get out there taking photos of flying EA500's for posterity. The game is winding down.
Here we have a strange mix . . . and more disconnects than understanding. Through most of the history of the blog, those concerned with the financial profitability far outnumbered those who were concerned with the “mechanical, aerodynamic, and electronic” capabilities of the little bird . . . and the underlying fabrication of the many parts and systems.
Now, suddenly, there are, what? . . . 260 incomplete aircraft out there somewhere . . . in various states of being even safe for a few “touch-n-goes”?
And now, there are owners, suddenly faced with the reality that they haven’t a clue as to the difference between a fairing and a trim-tab, . . . a control cable and a co-axial cable . . . let alone all the other complexities of even the simplest of aircraft. A few more are “owner/pilots” . . . and have at least a vague idea of the complexities of aircraft construction . . . and maybe the difference between 6061-T6 and 7075-T651, etc.
But to get parts for their now crippled aircraft . . . where? . . . and who? . . . and having been cheated by “professionals”, whom does one trust? They are again at the mercy of others . . . and the logic goes on and on.
Bottom line: It’s over! The fat lady sang! (I hope it was Jane Eaglen . . . because she, of all fat ladies, can sing like you never heard . . . “Sense and Sensibility” British production, the background and Wagner? . . . music to die for! . . . but I digress!)
Of the “surviving” invalids, I’d be surprised if ten percent could continue flying for a year . . . and then only if you believe in cannibalism . . . and don’t go flying far from home. Only “starving” A&P’s would work on these aircraft, and then they’d be taking a risk signing off on anything. And manufacturers . . . what can I say, with “liberals” doing everything in their power to destroy the private manufacturing structure of the nation . . . well, some will do strange things in desperation . . . even making replacement parts for a crippled bird.
Yeh . . . I know Dave Ivedorne “borrowed” the text for his contribution, but it’s still bringing tears to both me eyes . . . and great exercise to the stomach muscles from laughing . . . and I “quote” (sorta):
“It's not pinin'! It's passed on! This ToyJet is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, It rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the market it'd be pushing up the daisies! It's metabolic processes are now 'istory! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket, It's shuffled off it's mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-JET!!”
Thanks, Dave . . . There just isn’t any improvement on that summary!
gadfly
AVIO can be undone, or redone FJT, all it takes a large fortune (the small fortune in aviation joke).
I think completing Avio NfG is the best case, but lack insight into the details although I have been contacted by folks in the know and my vision is improving.
ASM's concept would work as well.
Either way it takes cubic dollars, a clearly defined vision, and commitment to the plan.
Yep. Dave I's Parrot sketch parody is worthy of a headline post.
have no fear, VErn will be back, and he will save the whole shoot'n match.
"Hello, Hello: VERN, VERN... it's Ken!!!"
"K-e-n.. Ken who? and why you callin me at 3AM?"
"Vern, its Ken Meyer - thank G_D you are taking Eclipse back over.. I heard it on the blo...."
"The what? I thought I shut that damn thing down? Anyhow, I'll be back, as Arny says! Don't worry Kenny boy".
"Oh great Vern, I knew it was true"
"Ken, I read on the bl.. anyway, you been saying I was dishonest and you welcomed Roel and the new management..."
click.....
I propose that Avio be renamed Albatross
Found this interesting AP News Article: Eclipse says it won't oppose bankruptcy
While fellow bloggers are contemplating the future of supporting the fleet and pilots, I think that most of the frame parts could be provided directly by the suppliers for the right price, assuming they are willing to take the risk. Maintenance shops can service the fleet if the necessary documentation / procedures are available or can be redeveloped (don't know if it is the case though).
But other than the pressing need for a new recurrent training provider, the only MAJOUR problem I can foresee is related to HAL and the cockpit displays due to EAC proprietary software.
So, I have a few simple questions that are nagging me bit. Would appreciate your insight:
1) When the navigation databases expire on the jets, who will supply the next update? Can it be downloaded directly from Jeppson? Can the aircraft be flown IFR with expired db?
2) How do we ensure that all the intellectual property will be intact at the auction? Specifically I am referring to the AVIO source code and executable programs needed to generate / install valid binary images (activation codes are S/N specific?) .
3) EAC may be obligated by law to deliver the IP to the ch7 trustees, complete and intact at the time of change to ch7 status. But what happens in the next few hours till then? Keep in mind that the EAC IP is not currently used as loan guarantee. For all I know, a handsful of EAC personel may be locked up behind closed doors doing serious clean up as we speak...
4) During the typical pre ch7 "cover-your-ass" cleanup operation, what if a few critical files got deleted by mistake together with MOM, emails, financial data, production QC records, internal test results, etc...? Does this leave ETIRC Aviation as the only entity capable of upgrading / maintaining Avio using the only complete / intact copy of the IP (code) that was packaged / transferred to it a few months ago by a subcontractor (cannot recall the name)?
5) I presume that the packaging of all the IP has resulted in the transfer of the Avio source code (an EAC copyright) from EAC to ETIRC, which may be illegal without US government consent. There is a big difference between EAC supplying complete (pre-programmed) boxes (same a garmin or other OEM) vs. smuggling out the source code to sell underground to the highest bidder in a latter time. I am referring to the issues pointed out in the second part of this article. With that in mind, can a bit of arms-twisting be exerted on RP to cough up a certified / complete IP copy without paying him $100K / plane upgrade for each binary activation code? (attention Fish).
6) Alternatively, in the interest of the debtors, can motions be filed with the court to ensure that said subcontractor submit an exact / complete / certified copy of the IP transferred to ETIRC? IMO, this is critical, otherwise the fleet is AOG very SOON and the assets (including TC and patents) have near ZERO value.
==========
PS: sorry for my bad English
CWMR
In absolute terms you are correct. You could strip out AVIO/ AVIOnFg, and convert the plane to OTS components. PWC may be more than happy to do an EEC + PMA for it.
At what cost? Put a number on it.
I would guess the engine cert at $40M, and the rest at another $100+M. WAG's probably way on the low side.
All the time you will be distracted fighting brush fires as venders go TU, parts will have to be reverse engineered etc, the owners will be unhappy customers and will sooner or later turn on you.
All this will take 2-3 years to get certified (if you have a dream team from day one), in the mean time your target market of 260 owners has shrunk to 26 dies hards.
Why on earth would anyone now consider putting millions into a business model based around "helping the EA500 owners". Be hard nosed. Look at the risks, look at the potential rate of return. Look at the diminishing markets. Put you money in something with a future.
If you are disparate to have a flutter on the GA industry, to the tune of $150M, the smartest place to place that bet would be a taking a shot at the twin trainer market, or the Robinsons.
Twin
Your only competition are the Piper Seminole, and the DA-42. One the flight schools don't want as the long term cost and availability of avgas is far from secure, and the other is severely damaged through the association with Thielert.
Robinson
Probably a much tougher nut to crack than Diamond. You'd could only make this work with a different propulsion concept, with all the risk this entails.
"Look where the FADEC's are and how they interface with the throttle quadrant."
Well in my scheme the FADECs and the Micky Mouse throttles would be in the nearest dumpster. Prime examples of bells and whistles you don't need.
If you are going to maintain the airplanes you need to start with an operator's conference with the FAA ACO office and any interested FBOs present. First order of business would be to identify what spares are needed and where they are at what costs. Then identify the known problems and try to rough out a plan.
"I would do things differently. You make mistakes and learn from them. What really killed Eclipse was its inability to achieve production volume.”
I guess he did not learn enough... guess who?
HME
I think that most of the frame parts could be provided directly by the suppliers for the right price, assuming they are willing to take the risk.
Not if they don't have PMA.
Do these vendors have FAA approved quality systems? As vendors, they don't need to, as they fall under Ecorpses quality system. For PMA, they have to step up. Why would they? For the potential of making one trim tab ever three years? It is not the mechanical parts which doomed this project in this short term.
Nav DB? What to tune the VOR's? The plane has no R-NAV, so the navDB can't be an issue. Or is it?
CWMR does Eclipse own all source code? We speculated to some lengths when Ecorpse published the 13 vendor list for AvionFg that it would be an integration nightmare, and it certainly looks like modules were bought as already approved units, so it is doubtful that the IP for the Chelton parts ,for example, are in the Ecorpse liquidation.
What if the IP just gets tied up in a legal pissing match for the next year, while RP tries to get his DIP back and no one else wants him to get a cent?
ASM wrote Well in my scheme the FADECs and the Micky Mouse throttles would be in the nearest dumpster. Prime examples of bells and whistles you don't need.
Do you know what FADEC certification costs?
Obviously PWC have a big headstart hear, as they could just bolt the 615 gearbox to the 610 (to get the PMA) and use the 615 Fadec. (This will trigger a wave of unknown unknowns. In homebuilder language Change one thing, change everything.)
We are still talking a multi- million dollar exercise (Like $40M), which I am sure PWC would be happy to do, on someone else's coin. On there own. No way.
4) During the typical pre ch7 "cover-your-ass" cleanup operation, what if a few critical files got deleted by mistake together with MOM, emails, financial data, production QC records, internal test results, etc...? Does this leave ETIRC Aviation as the only entity capable of upgrading / maintaining Avio using the only complete / intact copy of the IP (code) that was packaged / transferred to it a few months ago by a subcontractor (cannot recall the name)?
5) I presume that the packaging of all the IP has resulted in the transfer of the Avio source code (an EAC copyright) from EAC to ETIRC, which may be illegal without US government consent. There is a big difference between EAC supplying complete (pre-programmed) boxes (same a garmin or other OEM) vs. smuggling out the source code to sell underground to the highest bidder in a latter time. I am referring to the issues pointed out in the second part of this article. With that in mind, can a bit of arms-twisting be exerted on RP to cough up a certified / complete IP copy without paying him $100K / plane upgrade for each binary activation code? (attention Fish).
I think Roel is going to have to tread very lightly. He's made repeated assertions to the court (and we know what his word is worth) that he hasn't done that, but if it later turns out that he did and tries to claim an information monopoly and to profit off it, that could be a very dangerous game. It wouldn't surprise me if he had transfered IP and would try to strong-arm from having abused his position as Eclipse CEO, but I think the risks would be to great and the rewards would be too small.
I am going to be very curious on how everything stands with the Russians. They haven't chimed in so far that I'm aware of and it would be interesting if they were to say the deal is off because of the BK, that the deal was already going to be off, etc. I'm also waiting for a definitive statement that the Roel/Russian deal must be scrapped and that Roel can't continue. Roel could throw a major monkeywrench into the future of the Eclipse fleet depending on what standing ETIRC has to the plans/licenses/etc post-Chapter 7.
Freedom,
The Nav Database issue is complex.
Avio has a pseudo-DME derived from a TSO C145a GPS (The same GPS that was supposed to drive the Chelton FMS, different story).
With this pseudo-DME derived from GPS, Eclipse gained approval for the aircraft to satisfies the requirement for DME (or IFR-certified GPS) at and above Flight Level 240 specified in FAR 91.205(e).
This approval is contingent upon a current Nav Database. (or installations of Garmin 400's, another story we all know too well)
It would be interesting to learn more about on-going database support, as without it (or the installation of IFR-approved GPS receivers), these birds will effectively be limited to operations below FL 240.
-burner
CW,
you obviously read an earlier post of mine, and took it to heart. Good man.
"why help the ea50 owners?"
Becasue you can charge them, upfront and worry about it later - very profitable, and THEY LIKE IT!
Honestly, folks are talking about forming owners groups or whatever... so, they will be going to the owners IN ADVANCE, for coin and support/agreements/ ladida.
Well, I am a betting man, and I bet, if you put a bunch of owners together, you could probably get them to fork over, in advance a few hundred thousand a piece, and you could use their momeny to try to buy assets, inventory, etc... and then with their money, set up shop, and charge them a lot for support. Heck, I'd make them sign 5 year guaranteed support deals at $500/hr, plus, plus, plus...
Not a bad model... CW, go for it.
Two things seem to be the “demise” of many businesses. The first is “pride”, an over-estimation of a person’s position, intelligence, . . . whatever! The second is lack of honesty.
In the case of Eclipse, they both came together, early on, to achieve “critical mass” . . . the rest was the normal result.
After this sort of event, one must be extremely careful to avoid the “radioactive” after-effects. They can be lethal.
gadfly
(The “half-life” of such shenanigans is usually longer than a human life-time . . . sometimes stretching into generations. There is a remedy, but few wish to hear and heed it.)
The ‘Luddite dinosaur’ (ref: CWMR) certainly deserves entry to the General Aviation lexicon as equal parts of irony, an oxymoron and lesson learned.
Pratt & Whitney have been producing power plants since the earth cooled (1925) and have manufactured radials to rockets with HP/thrust ratings from kilo tons to mouse farts. The fact that there may be a pair of chariot ruts leading to their front door should be an endorsement rather than a detractor. The VLJ engine programs appear to be in direct response to multiple airframe companies with a relatively quick turn time.
Cleveland wheel and brake, aka Parker-Hannifin supports a mind boggling matrix of platforms with a focus on continuous inclusion and support; sounds cutting edge. Aircraft varied as the Hunting Firecracker partially financed by Guinness to the ERcoupe which had its TC flutter into the ownership of the municipality of Carlsbad, NM to name a few. Cleveland has a relatively quick manufacturing process which eliminates the need for inventory and enables the support of most airframes. You may receive your wheel while it is still cooling from the foundry. This appears world class.
The throttle quadrant was supplied by Curtiss-Wright. Don’t know much about this company; probably just a couple of guys trying to get their feet in the door of aviation while riding the coattails of the VLJ market.
At minimum, one should marvel at the longevity, continuous support of a myriad of vehicles while supplying a nimble and innovative response to the aviation industry.
If these suppliers are the Luddite dinosaurs, what makes this aircraft face extinction?
This conversation is losing the bubble I think.
If the items are TSO, they are TSO and can be replaced with another item that meets the TSO. Yes there may be form factor, weight and integration issues, but a TSO is a TSO.
If the items are Eclipse-specific, then EITHER the vendor owns the IP or Eclipse does. If the vendor does you either negotiate for their continued inolvement or offer to buy the product line from them removing the liability. If Eclipse owns the spec control drawings, you find a willing vendor, and be prepared to pay up front.
FADEC will not need recertification, but the throttles would (if you can Avio entirely). As I thought has been explained, the FADEC's are actually standalone from the ACS, the only issue being power supply (no PMA) and throttle by electrons which the EA-500 TCDS already addresses in a special condition I believe.
All of the Eclipse generated Avio NfG code and ALL supporting documentation is necessary regardless of which way you intend to go.
My gut says that EAC was probably within 6 yards of the goal line with a 'final' Avio NfG spec - the real question is how far along were upgrade plans and related documentation - how much of the needed inventory is/was in place, etc.
Did the first Avio to NfG transplant ever get completed?
Assuming you get everything you need at auction my best estimate is 3-4 months reviewing the 'final' spec, and then another several months to test and certify it.
At the same time, you find out what the status on fatigue testing was, where the test article is, and pay whatever it takes to restart/complete the tests, get knowledgeable ex-Eclipse structures guys to write the reports and get the life extended - I figure this could be a tough issue IF there are any challenges, otherwise, expect a 20,000 hr/cycle life.
During that time you get tip tanks and FIKI equipment to a singular configuration across ALL planes, and address the basic AOF issues related to flying a plane and slowly wearing it out.
Once Avio NfG 'final' spec is completed, all planes are upgraded.
Now there is a baseline configuration ()hardware/software) with the only variation being options.
I figure 14-18 months to get that done (after the BK and all is settled), probably an average upgrade cost (total) in the $400-800K range depending on initial delivery configuration, PLUS the costs of buying the TC and select tools, tooling and inventory, establishing/re-establishing vendor relationships, consultant expenses, etc., which will probably not be less than $25M (and could be twice as much if key vendors are willing to sell-off the Eclipse unique product lines).
And that is with NO intent to restart the line.
Figure ongoing operating costs, exclusive of fuel, to be in the $300-500/hr range including most of what Jet-In-Complete was supposed to include.
The money to buy the TC and supporting data and tools ($25-30M is my bet now) will be sunk costs, there will be no real opportunity to recoup it over 260 planes, call it a $100K per aircraft ante.
The support business will probably generate maybe $22-25M/yr in revenue off of by-the-hour, with a 6-8% net, the upgrades will yield $120-140M over the first 2 years, also maybe 6% net.
This all back-of-the-napkin stuff but will be within 2-3% IMO.
There are an awful lot of 'ifs' not clearly called out though in terms of vendor continuity, customer participation, etc.
If the owners split into two or more groups as I said earlier, the thing will be die on the vine.
If there is an immediate attempt to restart production of 'improve the deisgn' for a restart in production, it will die on the vine.
I believe at this point that it CAN be done, but only under a very limited set of circumstances, and with only one approach.
I like your post, BUT,
"The VLJ engine programs appear to be in direct response to multiple airframe companies with a relatively quick turn time"
I sorta wrong - in GA, for the most part, and in the VLJ case in particular, the engine companies actually lead the airframers.
There's a decade of development ime behind the PW600 series, for example, leading back to the 1990's. Williams produced prototypes of the FJ33 and FJ22 (previously known as the FJX2, and even built a flying protype "vlj" called the V-jet, years before Eclipse entered the fray. Engine first (usually a military variant or gov't funded tech demo prior to actual engine development, and THEN variants based on specific airframes).
So the class was enabled by the engine guys... there have been many small turbojet (as opposed to fanjet) powered planes in this weight class... since about 40 years.
But, yes, there certainly ARE reputable sub tiered suppliers to the ea50.
I was referring to those of us with that unwanted thing called 'experience' Modestan.
Vern explicitly stated at one point that one of his mistakes was hiring so many airplane people, and he went to great lengths to condemn the dinosaur companies out there, that use the same vendors Vern and Co tossed under the bus saying they were failures who did not know what they were doing.
There are (were) a number of 1st and 2nd tier suppliers on the Eclipse, the flaw was in vendor management, requirements management, and program management - all functions performed by the integrator, in this case Eclipse.
Seems the major debate is .... using/upgrading Avio or tossing it.
ColdWet, you seem to have a good handle on this. Can Avio be decoupled from the FADEC? I know you are in favor of keeping Avio.
Reason I ask is that P&W has said they'd never allow a 3rd party to develop a FADEC again as in EAC's case. This due to all the problems with EAC and their FADEC vendor. The cost for P&W to develop a FADEC for the 610 is $5-6 mil.
I can't really see "all the stars aligning in the correct position" as in ColdWet's scenario for viable support to move forward.
Any plan that starts with an assumption of $500K or more per aircraft is going to get very few takers, IMO. These guys have been badly burned, and I just can't see many of them wanting to take that magnitude of additional risk. There would have to be a very stable environment in place first.
From this mess, that is a stretch, to say the least. If only some of the owners step up, the per-owner cost goes through the roof. Non-starter. DOA
CWMR and ATM,
I’m in complete alignment with your messages. It was the discounting of experience and who brought what to the party and when which I found exasperating. Folks who have been in this industry longer than I have been converting oxygen to CO2 should be equally saluted and recognized rather than given the deep discount of dinosaur!
MH,
Again, anything CAN be done, the questions is how much and how long.
I can't believe that P&WC let EAC have the FADEC development in the first place, speaks to the power of the kool-aid.
I would only favor keeping Avio if it is as nearly 'done' as I suspect it is - if not, then the plane is done and no amount of money thrown at it will keep these flyings more than another 2 years.
You certainly can perform a Hal-ectomy under an STC and replace it with COTS gear, but how much useful load and cabin volume will be left?
I am a big fan of the 80% solution, and that seems to favor completing Avio NfG to a singular spec, bringing the planes to a singular physical spec, and then supporting that singular configuration, plus options, in the fashion jet owners SHOULD be accustomed to.
"in the fashion jet owners SHOULD be accustomed to"
now you're talking...
charge'm in advance
"Any plan that starts with an assumption of $500K or more per aircraft is going to get very few takers, IMO. These guys have been badly burned, and I just can't see many of them wanting to take that magnitude of additional risk."
TBM, you are so right in my opinion, BUT, as someone so aptly reminded me last week,
SOMOEN ACTUALLY PAID $2.5m OR SO FOR HIS EA50... AND SO DID 12 OR SO OF HIS FRIENDS.
So what's another $500k on top of what most of these guys paid? Its still a bargoon...TO THEM!!!
Amazing, isn't it?
CW, I bet you could get $250k from these guys in advance of spending any real money.
-sign some of the suppliers up
-sign on a few higer ups at Avio dev, and a few EAC line guys, support gus, and "promise" to upgrade and support the planes.
if you get 200 EA50-ers, you'll have $50M to play with, before anything has to get done.
PS, I would like 5% for my consulting services provided to you here on this blog!!!
Heck, if only 100 of these guys show, its $25M.
Like you say, THEY ARE USED TO THIS.
Actually, I think they LIKE it.
Hit me again, hit me again, hit me again....
Gad, somoene, pls find out what they did with CWMR? and who is this guy posing as him on this blog?
Just joshing!!!
ATM, I figure you need a solid commitment, in the form of a blind ante of at least $20K each from no less than 85% of the fleet just to figure out what you know and what you don't know.
Given the likely speed of CH-7, I doubt there is adequate time for folks who don't know what they are doing to complete a real due diligence (yes, even if they started with the original CH-11).
Looking ahead I see several groups bidding on the assets, lots of accusations after one of several owner-backed groups gets the pieces, and in the end a likely collapse, 6-12 months from now.
And that discounts the likelihood of another AD. With nobody around to handle the means-of-compliance, they could all be grounded literally at any time.
I would essentially stop flying it if I had one, until there is a clear way forward but my magic 8 ball says 'Reply hazy - try again'.
Coldwet,
Mislaid your email address.
Drop me a line, when you have a moment.
Shane
CW,
take it from me:
1-$20k is not high enough to make them think its seriosu. This is like a vital medication cost 19cents per pill. It just does not make you feel comfy.
2-$20k is not nearly painful enough for these clowns
I suggest sticking with $250k, upfront. Maybe offer a deal: $150k if you pay by midnight tonight!
;)
BTW, if the Linear guy get his program going, it will never succeed. Afterall, he planned an air taxi service based on this plane - this mean, he doesn't have a clue about anything regarding this plane!!!
quickie:
Is PW still supporting the engines? Guys are on MSPs, and PAYG plans... where do your engines serviced?
Blink around here and you miss something...
New post up. Good news for many, hopefully, and a possible way forward.
Shane
Owner supplied parts
To get information on this google "owner supplied parts"
Some locations with information are:
http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=1257
http://showcase.netins.net/web/gregscheetah/Maintenance_files/i%20versus%20We.htm
Another one A letter from the assistant chief counsel for regulations AGC-200 Subject Information Definition of "owner Produced Part " FAR 21.303(b) (2);
type in;
www.bomar.biz/request.php?702
Any problems let Shane know and we can exchange e mails etc.
I just want to comment to the AVIONICS ENGINEER who stated that all of Eclipse Management should be considered untouchable by any "NEWCO". I know many of the management staff personally and not all of them were drinking the kool-aid! There were several that were trying their damndest to help the operators. The biggest problem at Eclipse was a flawed business plan.
If I had to put a number on it I would say theta 50% of the staff really did give a sh%^ and the other 50% were overwhelmed and over paid. If the executive level managers had listened to the lower level managers and staff... the company would still be in operation.
There were several key managers that had no business working in the aviation industry. These individuals should have been terminated long ago but were kept around due to internal political ties.
I conclude by once again asserting that Eclipse Aviation had some damn good employees that were trying to make a bad situation better. Not all of them should be condemned to the boneyard.
Post a Comment