UPDATED 21.00hrs GMT
This from the inbox, giving us the 'official' text:-
Wednesday February 18, 2009
Eclipsers,
We are sure that you have noticed that the sale of Eclipse Aviation is taking longer than
expected. The efforts of many people to finalize the sale of Eclipse to EclipseJet is still
on course but slower than we all had hoped for. Even with the difficult financial markets
around the world, all actions to date allow us to believe that the sale and closing of the
overall process is well within reach. In spite of this optimism, we now find it prudent to
take action to provide us the best possible chance of assuring a sale closing occurs.
We are sure that you have noticed that the sale of Eclipse Aviation is taking longer than
expected. The efforts of many people to finalize the sale of Eclipse to EclipseJet is still
on course but slower than we all had hoped for. Even with the difficult financial markets
around the world, all actions to date allow us to believe that the sale and closing of the
overall process is well within reach. In spite of this optimism, we now find it prudent to
take action to provide us the best possible chance of assuring a sale closing occurs.
To make the company’s remaining cash last as long as possible and give us the most time
to complete the sale, the Board of Directors directed management to furlough essentially
all of the company’s employees effective today. This means you can go home and unless
you are asked, you should not report to work starting tomorrow, Thursday February 19,
2009, until further notice.
to complete the sale, the Board of Directors directed management to furlough essentially
all of the company’s employees effective today. This means you can go home and unless
you are asked, you should not report to work starting tomorrow, Thursday February 19,
2009, until further notice.
You will receive Thursday’s paycheck as normally distributed for work through Saturday,
February 14, 2009. It is our intention that all benefit coverage will remain in full effect.
We regret the need to take this action but we ask that you see the necessity given the
circumstances. You will be contacted at your home address and/or by home phone to
notify you when to return to your job or to provide any additional updates.
February 14, 2009. It is our intention that all benefit coverage will remain in full effect.
We regret the need to take this action but we ask that you see the necessity given the
circumstances. You will be contacted at your home address and/or by home phone to
notify you when to return to your job or to provide any additional updates.
While this is unpleasant and hopefully short lived, we are very thankful for all of the
ongoing support you are giving to Eclipse Aviation. We hope to have good news to
report to you in the coming days.
ongoing support you are giving to Eclipse Aviation. We hope to have good news to
report to you in the coming days.
Roel Pieper
Mark Borseth
Michael McConnell
Mark Borseth
Michael McConnell
The signs (behind the scenes) have been getting steadily worse for the past 10 days or so, with a number of missed deadlines in the Chapter 11 sales process. In the past few days, Roel has also gone 'walkabout', despite the crisis at the company. Various financial types have been deeply involved, trying to plot a way forward. I'd love to say more but I won't because today we need to think about the staff, their families and the supplier community.
I think I can speak for all of us 'critics' that this event, although long predicted, is not one that gives anyone a feeling of joy. My heart goes out to the breadwinner heading home to tell loved ones of hard times and disrupted lives and to the homemaker already struggling to stay upbeat in trying times.
One of the 'Honor Roll' has already offered help with those seeking jobs. I post his 'special purpose' address here, and will be happy to do so for others who's bona fides I'm happy with.
ColdWetMack@gmail.com
Coldwet (well known to all of 'us') is a solid professional, who will do all he can in the situation.
Every cloud has a silver lining, even if it seems bleak at present. Some suppliers are also in a very bad place, but can now at least move forward with other projects. Finally, it's almost inevitable that the next step will see the remaining stakeholders (owners, depositors and investors/lenders) left with little to feel cheerful about.
At least the speculation is coming to an end. One way or the other, this matter draws to a close.
Shane
549 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 549 Newer› Newest»ATM,
"he's here asking...for help, ideas, business plans..."
IF ONLY...
WEDGE HAD DONE THAT.
REALLY.
(of course, our first action would have been to give him the boot, so maybe he's not as stupid as it seems. HA HA HA- who am I trying to fool).
ATM,
EX-MENTAL ??
(oops, more Wedge speak there):
"EXPERIMENTAL"
I've looked at that in some other contexts, and I'm told once it's certified, it takes a special purpose (technology demonstrator, etc) to downgrade/(?upgrade?) to EXp (sorry again- EXPERIMENTAL) status.
(Of couse, some might argue the EA-500 HAS been a technology demonstrator...)
Irony Aviation Corporation, Proven Right on Tuesday since 2006.
Shane, let's have a competition to name my non-existent Eclipse Support Bidness idea.
CWMoR, my entry in the contest:
Critical Flight Support Services, LLC
Ken said,
it's largely a waste of money
And which part of your purchase wasn't a large waste of money?
I was hoping for funnier names Dave, but yours is certainly accurate.
Maybe change the spelling to CRITICal Flight Support Services.
Think like Wimpyburger Hamburger and Aircraft Management and Maintenance International Engineering (WHAMMIE Inc)
'We'll gladly service Tuesday the plane you dropped off today'
or
Tuesday Universal (TU)
'You can't go wrong when you go TU'
still working on how to get FUBAR or SNAFU figured out - those would be funny.
We all need to have a sense of humor about this - the end result was not remotely unexpected, by many here anyway but that does not make the impact any less on those folks who may not have been in the know, or who chose to use rose-colored glasses.
Support for
Highly
Integrated
Technology
'If you've got an Eclipse, you need us, you need our S.H.I.T.'
Special
Technology
Advanced
National
'When your EA-500 needs support call us, call STAN'
Notice to Employees
I'm reliably informed (remember, I'm Irish, so I need this kind of help) as follows:-
Employees fall under an administrative creditor class. But, that class unfortunately falls way down on the food chain.
They should –each- file a Form B10 with the Clerk of Court by Certified Mail. Their claim can always be updated, so file now.
The form is available at: www.deb.uscourts.gov … then the "Forms" link … then "Claim Form"
Case Number is: 08-13031-MFW
They may also want to call or mail the US Attorney assigned to the case, Jane Leamy.
United States Trustee
844 King Street, Room 2207
Wilmington, DE 19899-0035
302-573-6491
From another (employee) source:-
I called the workforce people. Here is what I was told:
- The workforce people are working with Eclipse to pay for Monday and Tuesday
- If we are paid for Monday and Tuesday, we will not be eligible for unemployment this week
- If we are not paid, back unemployment will be paid
- They are asking Eclipse people to wait until Monday to call in
- Meetings are being arranged to handle us in groups, and are recommended compared to calling in
- Meeting times will be announced via news stations, but will be next week.
I hope these items are of assistance to those of you who were affected by yesterday's events at EAC. Please also feel free to correct any part of this information.
You can contact me on
eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
Remember, however, the bit about me being Irish. I'm in GMT which means, right now, it's bedtime for me....
Shane
Maybe change the spelling to CRITICal Flight Support Services.
That's what I started with ( but decided to tone down ). I prefer the CAPS ENHANCED version, same as you.
I'll just run off and have some bacon, I guess.
DI
A name for the Eclipse support company should carry the same mystique yet serve as a representation of the NEW horizon ahead.
JFM is a strong sounding trigraph of consonants. Conjuring a sense of power as in “Just For Men” or perhaps reflection “Jacked For Millions” not to discount the ironic approach of “Jet Flown Monthly” all viable representations of the new corporation. For only those in the center sanctum of this fledgling business will possess the solution to this puzzle.
“Jetson – Flintstone – Magoo”, three sets of cartoons representing what was promised, what was delivered and the customer base served. Of course they are fictional, all the better for overhead – would you prefer dividing revenues among three founding partners?
This being a business fantasy; the first thing needed is a CEO, that’s right a Chief Executive Officer. Realizing the title CEO was typically applied in corporations with diversified services and interdependencies serving a broad base of customers would not stop me from naming one. After all, I’ve come across more than a dozen ‘companies’ with two employees; 1- CEO, 2 – President.
CEO- Kay Serah (she’s probably been employed by more companies than any other person)
V.P. of HR, executive placement specialist- Diogenes (measure the results not the input; yes I considered his actions in the Agora and found no deviation from previous executives behavior)
That should be enough ‘brass’ to get things started. What’s that? They’re fictional characters (prove they don’t exist). Ms Serah is on an extended search for venture capital in Burkina Faso and Diogenes is on a talent search. I don’t know where the best place would be to serve their summons. I’m just an employee here!
OK, got a name, executive staff with plausible deniability; just need a product for the aforementioned to produce. Medusa and Janus would make a pair of fitting nomenclature for this avionics package. Didn’t think you would have to know so much about Greek mythology to start an aviation services company did you?
Medusa will become the codeword for any AvioNG which goes code 3. This will best illustrate to the customer what they have to contend with while satisfying the Federal Truth in Labeling Laws.
My mistake in the second name; forgot to hyphenate! The product is the ‘J-anus’ not Janus! It’s a corruption of the word Jet (the aircraft) and anus (the anus). This best illustrates what the customer will receive in a retrofit and what it will look and function like. As with the Medusa, the J-anus will also satisfy all Truth in Labeling Laws.
two proposals:
Keeping with historical and responsible imagery:
RABURN-MAINTENANCE
(as in "Keeping the Dream Alive")
R-eally
A-bout
B-urning
U-nimaginable
R-resources (rubles) to
N-o end
-or-
Vern-MAINTENANCE
(as in "Keeping the Dream Alive")
V-ery
E-nthusiastic about
R-evolutionizing
N-othing
or better:
VERN RABURN MAINTENANCE
(put 2 + 2 together yourselves, which is what you shoulda been doing for the last 10 years)
Shane, yes, my comments to Bass were tongue-in-cheek.
Regarding Avio, why not just repair relations with Avidyne and go back to Avio 1.0? Avidyne finally seems to have their stuff together now, but is lacking customers for their integrated avionics suite. This would also simplify the avionics: no add on Garmins, etc.
airtaximan you and I are on the same page. I started kicking the experimental category idea around in my head about 4 months ago. I haven't done the research yet, but I don't know what the rules are as far as getting back to orignal category. I.E. do you have to give up one to get the other with no recourse to get normal category back.
I started kicking the experimental category idea around in my head about 4 months ago. I haven't done the research yet, but I don't know what the rules are as far as getting back to orignal category. I.E. do you have to give up one to get the other with no recourse to get normal category back.
Even getting a normal category aircraft recertified as an experimental is not trivial - seriously substantial modification that meets FAA's justification for homebuilts. The one example I'm aware of is the guy who took a Helio Courier, put a PT6 on it, an F-105 nose gear, lengthened the wings, and bolted the horn off a locomotive to the belly ( to clear the runway at wilderness strips ).
The only way to get back to Normal Category would be to either conform with an existing TC, or to get a new TC in the normal category, for the aircraft as modified. "Once you go black..."
But I'm no expert on cert issues.
An additional ( and mostly unrelated ) thing to consider - what progress has been made, and what work/expense still remains, to get rid of the ten year life limit in the current TC?
by the way if you have never watched South Park the "internet money" line might not make any sense...
hmm, so if an aircraft was never finished, per se, and the company supporting it went out of bness...
what's the option?
I know this planes is supposed to conform t a TC... but heck, I think there are about 20 FAA inspectors and DERs that could state "Jimmy's plane really don't conform"...
Joshing a bit, but CWMR, your thoughts?
Limitations?
Practicality?
Pissing up rope, again?
I had a legitimate question in last post.... whoever deleted it.
If the plane is experimental will it be IFR certified or RVSM certified??
IF NOT IT IS A WASTE at this point because the plane is a JET.
I think you guys are calling this game before the end of the fourth quarter by the way. I do not think it is entirely out of the question to think that the deal is taking longer than expected, especially in this economic climate.
FYI,
it's only a matter of time...
no one cares if its today or next week... or next month, or in 6 months... no ones cares
Its inevitable, the issues remain the same, and CWMR is dealing with the ongoing problems... no matter what this will happen, too....
enjoy the show... it may be another week, month, year..... who cares?
I think you guys are calling this game before the end of the fourth quarter by the way. I do not think it is entirely out of the question to think that the deal is taking longer than expected, especially in this economic climate.
Hope springs eternal with these guys! You're right, fat lady is not done singing, and there is still one chapter to go: number 7.
Of course, even that won't be the end of it because (hope springs eternal) someone might buy the carcass out of liquidation and resurrect it. That same party will provide ongoing support, upgrades, coupon issuance, etc.
If the plane is experimental will it be IFR certified or RVSM certified??
RVSM is more recent than when I was looking into Experimental requirements, so I can't competently address that, but IFR cert is very possible.
I don't think your post was deleted per se - its header would still be visible, whether it was you or a moderator that nuked it. Autopilot probably disconnected just after you clicked "publish this comment", and the post is now getting a bunch of confused looks on a gourmet cooking blog somewhere in Googlespace.
Damned turbulence.
Would you like the consomme?
DI
Omsiv, RVSM can be done an experimental, and I believe they can even get a group certification - just have to complete the tests and write the reports and show all units conform to the 'group' configuration.
As for switching to an EXP cert, I would not go that way - way more trouble than it is worth.
As for conformity, once the pink slip is issued the plane is airworthy until it is shown to not be airworthy. That would seem to be a bit punitive if the Feds came after them, but I suspect there ARE conformity issues - there are at almost every airframer.
The challenge for EAC is how bad are the conformity issues? Suspicion is that this could be big.
The thing to remember is there are shops that can perform a complete steam-gauge to EFIS panel replacement in a light jet for about $500K, AND they make money doing it. The EFIS portion of the cost is about $150K using EFIS 50 or Universal 550 glass. Not Avio or 777 integration, but EFIS nonetheless.
I had thought about going back to Avidyne as well for the Avio solution, not a bad idea since it was rumored that Entegra is basically Diet Caffeine Free Avio, paid for by Uncle Vern.
The whole Avio/integration situation is the 800 pound gorilla in the room for any support concept. A phased engagement, dealing with other than Avio issues first, then Avio second, might work, but planes will likely end up AOG due to no-fault-found issues in troubleshooting, common with integrated systems.
I put the odds at RiP coming up with the cash at the last minute as slim to none, but if we have learned anything, never count this dog out.
Assuming however that it does collapse, the question becomes are the owners willing to pony up $12-18K each JUST to figure out what is and is not known and what MIGHT be done?
Are they willing to just be customers, but who are financing these things IN ADVANCE?
Still lots of questions, but getting some answers and some suggestions - interesting times indeed.
Why is everyone making such a big deal about AvioNG?
If the SW for 1.5 and 1.6 is certified, the HW is COTS and available and there is an approved SB to upgrade existing planes to it, what is the big deal?
I realized that these are 3 ifs, but they all seem plausible.
The issue is just someone coming up with the money to get this thing going before the troops and IP scatter woo far.
We'll need to wait at least until next week's court hearings for any substantive info.
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/business/business_contract_scrutiny_delays_eclipse_sale_200902191728
Worth the read, and if you feel like you don't have the time or just don't care as much anymore i will highlight a bit...
"the sale of the bankrupt company is now in the final administrative process.
The money has been approved, but because of the world economy, everyone is combing through the contracts to make sure nothing goes wrong."
Is this the fat lady taking singing lessons??
Stay tuned...
Is this the fat lady taking singing lessons??
Stay tuned...
There are a number of different fat ladies backstage. One of 'em's gonna sing - the rub is: which one, and when?
I wouldn't blame you a bit for wishing upon the EJI option, and will light a cigar in honor of you & Ken & 421 & ea500s & epilot, etc if the deal finally closes. It would make all of your lives simpler.
But you'll forgive me if I view news coming out of Eclipse as being false, until proven otherwise.
DI
Not with that whiny voice and obviously gullible to swallow the lame lines you so effectively highlighted.
I hope this comes to pass.
The EA500 future would look a lot clearer even if Eclipse Jet just runs for and extra 12 months before filing again.
Hey, B.E.G - you removed your post that I was commenting on!!!
And here I thought it was one of your better ones. ;)
Hi Baron
(Thanks- I felt a little sorry for the reporter, and toned my comments down a bit)
---------------------------------
Hi EPx,
Thanks for posting the link to the KRQE article on Eclipse. EPx, I'm not shooting the messenger, thanks for putting it up.
What caught my attention was the line,
"The money has been approved, but because of the world economy, everyone is combing through the contracts to make sure nothing goes wrong."
I have been probably the most optimistic "critic", but when I read a p.o.s. line life that, my eyes roll and I wring my hands.
"The money has been approved"
Okay, by whom???
"everyone is combing through the contracts"
Okay, who is "everyone".
What has "everyone" been doing- for the past three weeks?
"to make sure nothing goes wrong"
Oh.
Like taking six more months to re-evaluate the business plan and market?
I can't believe a "news department" would regurgitate drivel like that- that any reporter would "report" it, that any "editor" would let it pass. This one doesn't pass the smell test- it just reeks of B.S.
After reading this, it seems to me like the only reason the fat lady isn't singing is because she is taking Russian lessons.
----------------------------------
(I thought a deal was close, but when I see Eclipse B.S. parroted in the mainstream media, I am reminded of "the golden age" of Eclipse Press Releases- and my confidence greatly wanes).
Is it REALLY that much to expect the press to ASK A TOUGH QUESTION AND DEMAND AN ANSWER !?!?!
I've given up on 'em. Useful only to wrap fish and line the kitty litter box- and it's a good thing the fish is dead, and the cat can't read, or even they'd object.
(...although they might not seem toned down THAT much :)
Guess I'm not shooting the reporter either- it's just, well, the media is pretty lame. Budget cuts, etc. etc.
I think it just points out what a good job the blog does of...being "critic"-al thinkers.
Gadfly- Has the ABQ Journal done ANY critical (not negative) inquiry regarding ETIRC? They sure never did regarding EAC.
I (sadly) don't expect the radio or television to- after all, if it takes more than 30-60 seconds, it's deemed "too complex" because it might distract viewers and listeners from concentrating on dog food commercials or what is going on in Hollywood.
ZED - There are no Level A systems on the E-500. A caveat in the regs based on gross weight and number of pax.
Avio could be reverse engineered, but THAT would take a lot of time and money.
For those who haven’t listened to the Ecorpse conference call with the press, here are a few gems from Mike McConnell...
employees wont be coming back to the present Ecorpse, only called back to Ecorpse2, assuming a new company emerges from the trainwreck
no idea when employees might be called back
no idea if the sale will actually conclude
no idea if assets will go to Russia
When he tried to spin the situation as “good news..”, and a reporter asked him what exactly WAS the “good” news, he replied “we think the sale will close”. And I swear I heard slurping noises in the background.
Some direct quotes...
“over a thousand on backorder”
“never built our business around dayjet being successful”
“no salary cuts for those still on payroll”, including Mike McConnell.
I’m sure he’s gonna end up being the “real-world example” in a lot of college psychology textbooks. If the drug lords ever switch from pushing cocaine to EAC Koolaid, this country is doomed.
For a name for CWMR’s new business venture...
Zombie Aircraft Parts (ZAP)
Bringing the dead back to life, one electron at a time...
The business theme could be Dr. Frankenstein, the monster, the castle, lightning storms, villagers, etc. An internet home page showing a dead FPJ sprawled belly-up on the operating table, with Dr. CWMR about to throw the switch and jolt the frankenjet back to life.
I’d seriously investigate liability insurance before delving too deep into a possible cottage industry. Assuming Ecorpse is no longer the deep pocket it once was, I’ll bet appropriate coverage would be around a half billion dollars. This guess is based on the $100,000,000 coverage Ecorpse required independent service centers to have 8 months ago, and my belief the smoking hole is not an “IF”, but a “When”. I apologize to owners, but that is my belief.
My impression, from talking with Eclipsers last summer/fall, was that much of the real talent had already abandoned ship. The folks still hanging around as of yesterday, felt Ecorpse was their bet hope for a paycheck in the aviation arena.
I really think the big money to be made from this mess is in the Koolaid, Now THAT is some really incredible stuff, and they are able to generate tons of it.
Imagine the applications...
No need for medicinal painkillers, just a few sips and softly whisper “you feel fine” into a patient’s ear.
Half a cup, and you can convert career criminals into model citizens.
It’s a politicians wet dream. Imagine. Pour it into public water supplies, a few midnight, torch-lit rallies, then sit back and enjoy the support of the entire population for even their wildest schemes. I can hear the goose-stepping already.
Re. TAWS/RADALT.
If you don't have a RADALT, but rely on the AVIO TAWS, what you are actually relying on is your GPS sensors.
Basically the A/C only has two nav signal sources - GPS and VOR/ILS. The GPS signal is a single frequency with the eqiuvelent signal strength as a 60W lightbulb, viewed at 20000 miles.
I would venture that diverse, unrelated navigation sources bring a positive safety benefit.
WCSYCE LTD
W-edge
C-ouldn't
S-o
Y-ou
C-can't have a working plane
E-ither
FJ, to a point. In single pilot IFR flying, there is a lot of competition for the pilot's neurons.
Integrated information, with integrity monitoring, is the way to go. GPS-based graphical TWAS with SVS/Infrared integrated presentation is best - E.g. Cirrus Perspective (full).
I'd be willing to bet that no pilot has ever been lead into terrain based on erroneous GPS-based TWAS information.
Yet, we have several examples of modern airliners with 2-person professional pilots with INS and radar altimeter flying into a mountain. E.g. AA in Colombia.
When certain things like dual receiver WAAS-GPS with integrity monitoring became reliable enough to be at best a very remote rounding error on accident statistics, then adding more cross-referenceable sensors probably has a negative safety effect.
I think I already told this story. When shooting an ILS (or Loc)/DME with markers, the freaking instructor giving me an proficiency check wanted me to program and run a timer as well "just in case the ILS and the DME went out during the approach, you can revert LOC-only and time the MPA".
I refuse to participate in such antics that sound good on paper, but decrease safety. The chances of me missing something by fooling around with a timer on an ILS in hard IFR vastly out weight the chances of the ILS and DME going out. And if I get flags on an ILS with plenty of fuel I am going missed anyway. The guy tried to argue with me - I told him, we'll discuss on the ground. He still was not convinced and was very curt with me whenever I saw him at the airport after that.
Anyway - time to get some zzzzz.
More is not always better when it comes to navigation sources.
"The money has been approved"
Okay, by whom???
Exactly. As far as I know Roel only had an LOI with Russia and no actual approval has taken place. Roel has gotta know the difference between an LOI and an actual contract unless he's just doing this dog and pony show about the approval in order to avoid adverse legal action against him for his representations to the BK court regarding the capitalization of EclipseJet.
"I'd be willing to bet that no pilot has ever been lead into terrain based on erroneous GPS-based TWAS information."
'We
are issuing this AD to prevent certain
conditions from existing when PFDs
display incorrect attitude, altitude, and
airspeed information. This could result
in airspeed/altitude mismanagement or
spatial disorientation of the pilot with
consequent loss of airplane control,
inadequate traffic separation, or
controlled flight into terrain.'
Good comments B95.
The Pilot does not need to see (shouldn't see) raw data. Every real FMS out there can do DME/DME or DME/VOR, maybe even INS position update. The pilot normally has no idea whether the current position is provided by GPS or one of the other sources.
Light A/C have been doing fine with just GPS R-NAV, but they are an insignifcant factor in the whole airspace system.
GPS is a great system, but it's weakness is the single frequency /weak signal. In the US it is not yet a big deal, but other countries (e.g Australia) are folowing Germany down the path of road user changes based on GPS data, which creates a market for jammers.
For a single pilot on a single flight it is easy enough to paint a scenario where back up doesn't matter, but picture the terminal airspace at O`Hare if all SID's and STARs become inactive because some idiot plays with his jammer, and many A/C have the idiotic Eclipse dependancy on GPS as sole source, and no other means of determining postion and mantaining R-NAV capablity (Not like they even got that working after 10 years and Billion or two - how pathetic!)
Ecorpse TU is a great thing for the NAS.
"Freedom's Jam" wrote, "the idiotic Eclipse dependancy on GPS as sole source"
Huh? GPS is not the sole navigation source in an Eclipse.
GPS outages occur every single day and aircraft keep flying using their VOR receivers. Furthermore, you seem to want to fault Eclipse for the very same setup in use by nearly all GA aircraft.
Maybe you ought to make your pitch at the "General Aviation Critic NG" blog :)
BTW, your conclusion that GA aircraft are an "insignifcant factor in the whole airspace system" is just wrong. In the most recent year studied, GA represented 48.3% of hours flown by all aircraft and 79.8% of all departures.
Luckily, only 6.14% of fuel burned :)
Ken
"The money has been approved"
Okay, by whom???
As I reported earlier, the Russian Government set aside $50b to help banks and businesses during the downturn. As of January 29, applications for this money totaled $90b and $11b had been "approved."
AFAIK, this money is supposed to help established banks and businesses. Eclipski doesn't seem to technically qualify. Prehaps they would get $ through a partner?
Also in January, Putin publicly stated that not all companies would be able to get the help they have asked for and that "social coniderations" (jobs, not Kremlin connections) would be the main consideration for Govt help.
We can only speculate: Maybe they were approved but the money will never be dispensed because there are other companies that need it more? Maybe approval is only one step in the process? Maybe they are using the news of "Russian approvals" to buy time?
NOTE: On Feb 5th separate and smaller program was announced to help banks and smaller businesses. RP's "we've been approved" announcement seemed to coincide with the start/announcement of this new program. But that program only allows for about $1b to help smaller businesses so $205m for Eclipse would be a big chunk of that (and very noticeable).
Maybe Fred can comment on this further.
============
I'm not sure how much we can read into the furloughs. Its not terminations. It's *possible* that RP is working on a valid, realistic financing (whether he gets it or not is another matter).
I'm not sure how much we can read into the furloughs. Its not terminations.
They are effectively terminations because Roel says those people wont be brought back unless it is at RoelJet. They wont be brought back to Eclipse, hence they are effectively terminated from Eclipse.
Medvedev Rebukes Government for Slow Crisis Response
Feb. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev criticized the government for its slow response to the country’s worst economic crisis in a decade, and proposed broader state loan guarantees for companies to ease their access to credit.
“We are working very slowly, which is unacceptable in a period of crisis,” Medvedev said today during a government meeting in the Siberian city of Irkutsk.
. . .
“This isn’t a macroeconomic problem or a consequence of the difficulties faced by the world financial system. This is simply our inability to work swiftly and efficiently,” Medvedev said.
Medvedev has previously criticized the government’s handling of the crisis, saying on Jan. 11 that only 30 percent of approved measures had been implemented. The government has earmarked more than $200 billion in emergency funding to help the economy weather the crisis.
Huh? GPS is not the sole navigation source in an Eclipse.
Score one for Ken - As far as I can tell, GPS isn't even an IFR-approved source for navigation in an Eclipse.
Furthermore, you seem to want to fault Eclipse for the very same setup in use by nearly all GA aircraft.
Bzzzt! Score minus one for Ken. Nearly all GA aircraft predate the glass cockpit. For those with GPS, it is a discrete system not sharing any single points of failure ( such as display ) with the VOR/ADF/LORAN hardware north of the electrical buss. Yes, I believe that more GA aircraft are equipped with LORAN-C than a glass panel...
Maybe you ought to make your pitch at the "General Aviation Critic NG" blog :)
Formerly known as the "Marion Blakey's FAA - Interoffice Memo".
BTW, your conclusion that GA aircraft are an "insignifcant factor in the whole airspace system" is just wrong.
A good control for that theory would be to shut down the entire airspace system - which, as Baron alluded to the other night, happened seven and a half years ago. Millions of airline travelers were stranded by it. I would venture that the number who were similarly affected in GA was in the low thousands.
Define "significant".
DI
Wikipedia lists half dozen examples of Stockholm syndrome. Will the blog be example number seven?
Dave wrote,
"For those with GPS, it is a discrete system not sharing any single points of failure ( such as display ) with the VOR/ADF/LORAN hardware north of the electrical buss."
Must be you haven't heard of the best-selling series of combined NAV/MAP/COM boxes--GNS-530, GNS-430, and others where the box IS the single point of failure. The Eclipse has inherently better redundancy than any plane with those combined units.
Ken
Dave: Uh..."effectively terminated" may or may not be true (I don't know the details of the buyout of Eclipse by EclipseJet - if RP gets the financing will employees be called back so they can be terminated?). I think what matters more is whether employees have a job or not.
Yes. They will ultimately be terminated whether RP gets the financing or not. But none/some/many/all (take your pick) can be expected to be "rehired" by the EclipseJet (*IF* RP gets the financing).
AFAIK, this money is supposed to help established banks and businesses. Eclipski doesn't seem to technically qualify. Prehaps they would get $ through a partner?
Also in January, Putin publicly stated that not all companies would be able to get the help they have asked for and that "social coniderations" (jobs, not Kremlin connections) would be the main consideration for Govt help.
The "enterprise zone" at Aviastar-Ulyanovsk is an entity completely separate from Eclipski, intended as a sort of jobs program. It already has massive ( and massively ) underutilized facilities ( the taxiway between the Antonov factory and the runway is six miles long, or so ).
"One girl in a convertible is worth more than five in the phone book" - Warren Buffet
Releasing funds for an Eclipski facility at this time might result in jobs someday, a couple of years nigh. "Rubles For Roel" = "one girl in the phone book".
But in the urgency to get the money out there, oversights are possible.
платить на первом окне,
DI
I hope that the former employees of Eclipse will decide to pick up and move on now, rather than wait for EAC to reopen (under any name). Hope is a good thing, but action will produce better results and take away the stress of waiting day after day for something that may never happen.
The most likely scenario is that the doors to EAC in ABQ are closed permanently.
Ken did one of his usual posts.
The GPS is not sole source for TAWS and the never completed R-NAV capablity? My post refered to R-NAV capablity, not raw data navigation (Which you are probably pretty good at by now :)
As I mentioned, Light A/C are normally insignificant. The do not normally operate in the same levels as the real traffic. The VLJ's and a few CJ1's are the only jets in the upper airways which are dependant on GPS signals for sole source R-NAV capablity.
The best terrain avoidance systems require radar altimeter input.
Vostochny Aerodrome, with the Aviastar complex to the west, Goat-Style.
( for a sense of scale, the runway is 3.1 miles long )
NZ: With the delays and furloughs, the situation for Eclipse/EclipseJet has certainly gone from bad to worse. People will plan accordingly. RP has days, maybe weeks before creditors, employees and others force an outcome. We already know that there is a group challenging the sale, creditors must be getting frustrated (planning for Ch7), and employees (whats left of them) will be spending their time looking for other opportunities.
But 'Critics' should consider the possibility that RP is actually working on something real that HAS been delayed, and that the sale COULD close.
It's not time for www.failblog.org ("bankruptcy fail"??: failure of a failed company) yet (but everyday that passes without a closing feels like another nail in the coffin).
Along those lines, I put up the "David After Dentist" satirical post earlier because so many expect the worst from Eclipse/RP&Co. So much so, that it is almost conceivable that they would market to children. (No I'm not trying to excuse, absolve, or explain the abuses - just sharpen 'Critics' understanding and expectations, and have some fun doing so).
9Z said . . . “Hope is a good thing . . .”
Yes, Hope is an excellent thing. “Hope” is “Desire with expectation of obtaining what is desired, or belief that it is obtainable.” . . . right out of the Merriam-Webster dictionary.
The problem at “Eclipse” . . . the attitude is “wishful thinking”, something far removed from “hope”.
Or, to use a more recent term, Eclipse will succeed . . . “in a pig’s eye”.
gadfly
['Kum wun, kim all, this rock shel fly From its firm base - in a pig's eye.'" From "The Dictionary of Cliches" by James Rogers (Ballantine Books, New York, 1985)]
But 'Critics' should consider the possibility that RP is actually working on something real that HAS been delayed, and that the sale COULD close.
I think he is, but that doesn't change the fact that if that Russian deal closes the money belongs to Eclipse per the royalty agreement with ETIRC. I wouldn't trust Roel to run EclipseJet given how he is picking Eclipse's pockets to buy Eclipse. I hope that if the deal happens that rather than being sold to Roel that instead this lifts the company out of BK.
interesting question...
Does anyone know anything about the aircraft that is currently being upgraded from Avio to Avio NG in a third party shop in LA? Not the city but the state.
In order for investors, from any country, to have any really serious interest in Eclipse, they are going to have to demonstrate how they are going to make a profit and that they have the means and expertise of bringing the company to profitability.
No one has proven that a company manufacturing only one problematic VLJ can turn a profit. Not before, and certainly not now.
Any resurrection of this zombie of a company is likely to be short lived as cash gets tight once again.
It's over. The fat lady is taking the stage.
Jack ...
Russian Credit approval has nothing to do with western ones on some respect ...
i personally know some "approved project" who got the green light years ago ...
but are still waiting the money to appear ...! ;-)
if you combine this and the "worse disease" of this kind of "finance guy" (nothing personal ! i know lots of persons who claim to know how to get finances for project ...what's the name again for those ... hum...huumm...ahh , yes , i remember : dreamers ! they always get the check on the week after ... with a bit of chance : on a Tuesday...! ;-) )
9z,
I basically worte the same post, and it failed to psot and evaporated.
It makes ZERO sense for the Russian to buy EAC now. Especially, since it could be snatched up for 10% of their bid at C7... in a few days ;)
I see this:
75% chance the Rubles never come
10% chance another EA50 EVER gets built and delivered
50% chance the Russians buy some assets at BK
90% chance the ABQ factory never opens again
0% chance they have 1,000 orders
10% chance they have 100 orders
5% chance anyone will ever make a cent producing or supporting this plane
- I almost think this has been a clever plan by RP all along - have the ABQ facotry lights go out, tout 1,000 orders, and goad the Russians into opening a factory in Russia.
9Z
ouuuchh !
don't put your finger into believer's eyes that much ..!
i think you hit the bull's eye !
when the only product a firm can sell is crap ... (mainly because of its enlightened mngt )
what is the future of the said firm ?
Maybe the most relevant aspect of the question of whether RP's financing is realistic is whether he will be allowed to bid at a new Ch11 auction and/or Ch7.
If he has manipulated Ch11 with only an LOI, maybe he will not get a chance at Ch7. If he can show that he was "approved" and had a valid financing lined up, then maybe he and his Russian partners will not be prevented from bidding in Ch7.
Maybe he is now thinking of just buying Eclipse assets need to manufacture in Russia (doesn't need the partially completed planes). Maybe, as suggested by airtaximan, he could pick that up in Ch7 for $20m instead of $205m? After all, this is Feb'09, not Oct'08.
at :
make your first % 99 and we will agree ...!
(99 = in a time and in a fashion subordinated to such use, that it makes sens for it to exist ...!if the money arrive in a year , no use!)
2* = 5%
3* =20%
4*=95%
5*=0%
6*= taking into consideration old deposit =100% excluding depo/new orders (the only bringing new cash ) = 1%
7* =0.1%
jack ...
yes , but it "could be" (IF the Russian money arrive in time : highly unlikely !) that's a new stunt ...
to push every one not already puking on the name (Fpj)
in order to buy out in a Chap7 for much less than 28 , 20 ,15 , etc
the more others are pushed out , the lesser the bid ...
Timing is everything
N513EA @ LMFD:
This airplane landing photographed at sunset, in the same moment that got a punture in it's right tire, without consequences to the aircraft and without leaving the track.
My put on a CH-7 fire sale is the whole shooting match can be had for maybe $10-15M.
But post CH-7 getting anyone to sign on to support the fielded planes will be extremely difficult and will all be COD which makes that extremely difficult.
If it goes CH-7 $20M could probably buy the needed assets, find the necessary talent, figure out what is what, and GET READY to support the fielded aircraft. NOTE- not a production company, purely support for the existing 'delivered' planes.
Maybe could complete the incomplete PLG guys, but not cheaply or quickly.
Still not sure there is a tenable business case insofaras as the owners being willing/able to pay what it takes to consolidate the fleet to a singular or perhaps 2 configurations, and then maintain airworthiness on those planes.
But I am still looking into it.
McConnell has been quoted several places now saying it is just a paperwork issue. If that were true, why furlough everybody? Unless the DIP is dried up payroll for 900 can't be worse than $2M/wk.
I call shenanigans, sounds like more of the same BS - but who knows anymore.
Lying to customers is one thing...
For them to lie to the media, that is quite risky.
McConnell has been quoted several places now saying it is just a paperwork issue. If that were true, why furlough everybody? Unless the DIP is dried up payroll for 900 can't be worse than $2M/wk.
It is a paperwork issue - Roel doesn't have a signed agreement
Lying to customers is one thing...
For them to lie to the media, that is quite risky.
Well, there are lies, and then there are Lies.
Frankly, I consider it FAR worse ( actionably so ) that Eclipse lied to YOU & friends, than that they "spin the truth" ( exactly 179 degrees, as it were ) with the media at this point in time. And historically, it doesn't seem like media make lying to them all that blasted risky.
Eclipse isn't bound under a contract with KRQE or the Abq Journal. If the latter feel lied to, it's incumbent on them to pronounce their skepticism, investigate relentlessly, and release their findings. They don't.
You & yours, DO have contracts with Eclipse. And they've been violated time & again by Eclipse, who then hid behind the shield of Chapter 11 - making it much more difficult for you to be made right. But lying to customers carries considerably more inherent risk than lying to the press.
( I'm sure there are exceptions. For instance, I'd probably avoid lying to the publisher of SWAT Magazine - he's got a track record. I'm just sayin'. )
DI
Notice how the sunrise is reported by the media . . . “It has been reported that the sun came up this morning.” . . . the weatherman said.
Correction: “It has been reported that the sun came up yesterday morning.” (I failed to include the “delay” in reporting, to allow for legal assistance.)
gadfly
(You just can’t be too careful . . . nor are reporters qualified to report first hand facts.)
Baron will be pleased - news is Chealander will be leaving NTSB next week to join Airbus America's.
http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/business_krqe_albuquerque_eclipse_nears_sale_200902201244
Just the title, 'Sale of Eclipse Aviation to another company...' just really riles my dander.
It is not another company - it's the same bad actors - they just found some new suckers (maybe).
Wiping out the loyal-serving minions at the bottom, taking as much as $300M from the owners-in-waiting, and then skating while retaining (some) of the bad actors at the top is not a restructuring, it's a fleecing.
We'll see if they close on the deal or not - at this point it is still just the same words, only from different holes than before.
As ATM and Jackrabbit said, this is going into CH7. IMO, Roel will be 'smart' to buy the intelectual property for pennies. The furlough was the equivalent of locking out the rank-n-file employees from the plant. In November, I had sent of a rant to NM Tax and Rev Secretary Rick Homans. So today the issues won't be about unpaid taxes, I think. In the last 24hrs, I've seen some reports that EAC employees won't be allowed to file because they haven't technically lost their job. Has anyone else firmed up on that, if it is or is not true?
NM is an at-will state, so either side can terminate the employment relationship. Yet if an employee is a no-call/no-show for 3 days, the employer can terminate that person and consider it "job abandonment." So why would the reverse not hold true against an employee that was given a mandatory unpaid "furlough?"
Homans responded to my email right away, saying that yes, my question is better answered by NM Dept of Labor Secy. Betty Doris. I suggested to her that, if Roel doesn't declare the BK done by Monday or Tuesday, she should allow the unemployment benefits to be made avail to all 800. If he can't announce that he will open the plant on Tuesday, then he won't be re-opening Abq plant ever again.
It will be an interesting weekend for some. At least the market closed at only -100 today...
:(
e.d.t.
EPx,
I donno- it sounds like a rehash...
(seems odd one sentence says it's a done deal, the next one says file for unemployment on Saturday. Especially since there is a 2 week waiting period).
---------------------------------
I had to scrounge around to figure this out, and it gets goofed up if I don't post the instructions a few characters at a time below
experiment with hyperlinking by using this, and then do a print preview, and then right click to "open in a new window" to see if it works.
<
a
space
href="
web address goes here
">
whatever you want to call it
<
/
a
>
Or you could copy and paste into browser bar. Sorry I am not up on the details of blogging links... I am not that interested in learning that. Copy, paste works just fine.
No, I get the last word.
Your turn.
And by the way, you're welcome.
Ok. thank you for teaching me something. Now I know. However, I still think copy/paste works fine. Not trying to get the last word, just thanking you for your efforts.
edt
Sometime back, the “gadfly” spoke of something to the effect of keeping the folks on the hook with just enough to make them “hang on”, without actually paying them for their time. (I went back to see what I actually said . . . and came up blank . . . it’s “in there” somewhere, but I have other things to do just now . . . earning a living and other minor activities.) A good fisherman knows the techniques.
It appears that the employees . . . ex-employees (you choose) are in a fix. Eclipse has no interest in paying them for their time . . . NM State has no interest in paying them “un-employment” . . . Bill Richardson has spent us into a “short-fall” of $500 million.
Don’t you love that new term? . . . “shortfall”? . . . It used to be “shortage” (but that was unpopular . . . it implied “blame” . . . requiring a guilty party). Either way, Richardson did something with all that money . . . and just now, he’s not ‘telling.
In line with our new president’s support of “postpartum abortion”, you “ex-employees” are expendable . . . since your “parent” had previously decided that you are “an unwanted pregnancy” (so to speak). You silly people . . . you thought you had a future . . . and you find yourself in a trash can. Eclipse doesn’t care . . . cry your lungs out.
It’s time to get “real” . . . face reality. There is no future at Eclipse. New Mexico is not your friend. It’s a big bad world out there. I would like to express “nice thoughts” such as “good luck”. But there is no such thing as “good luck”. It’s time you spent time with your Creator, and get some real wisdom for your future.
No more silly comments . . . life is not like that. People “hurt”, families are in trouble . . . the future is scary. Yet, there is hope and peace for those who know where to look.
gadfly
DI said... Releasing funds for an Eclipski facility at this time might result in jobs someday, a couple of years nigh.
My reading is that it creates jobs immediately in the building of the factory. You know, construction jobs like the Obaminator likes.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Baron will be pleased - news is Chealander will be leaving NTSB next week
Not really. This sounds too much like a step up. I'd like to see him "removed" from the investigation for having compromised his credibility and that of the NTSB, by mumbling ridiculous assertions that a turboprop with boots is not susceptible to icing.
Hi EPx,
You're welcome- sometimes the cut and paste doesn't work in my browser- if the address is too long, my system does not automatically append the additional lines, but rather truncates it, and I have to do it manually, so sometimes I have to cut and paste several times. The real utility in being familiar with the "a" for adding the tag stuff is, it opens the doors to other useful tools, such as bold ("b") and italics ("i"), (and they can be used in combination). There's probably a bunch of other stuff too, but the a, e, i, o, and u are- oops, sorry, the a, b, and i are the only one's I've used.
For all our friends benefits- I've posted it before- hope it helps if folks want to use it.
Here's a tutorial page that I used to dig some of this stuff up:
http://www.thelivingcanvas.com/guither/webtricks/basichyperlink.html
-or-
click here
:)
Black Tulip said...
The best terrain avoidance systems require radar altimeter input.
Hummm...
What is best for terrain avoidance? The VOR-RNAV/INS/Radar altimiter based system used on the AA 757 that slammed into the mountain in Colombia or the GPS-only graphical TWAS system on a Cirrus Perspective?
Radar altimiter will never help prevent you from flying into an obstruction (e.g. radio tower) or rapidly rising terrain (e.g. The Andes in Colombia or the Sierras in CA).
GPS-based TWAS will. For a fraction of the cost.
I'd rather have an VFR-only Garmin 696 with TWAS database on my lap then the best Radar Altimiter-based terrain avoidance setup.
Ken and EPx,
I am sure RP is trying, and I concede Eclipse's press conference was a sign that they have some degree of confidence things are progressing forward, but have you heard just what the hold up is?
I hope it can be concluded before the end of the month- re-reading the posts above, suggests indeed health care coverage is just provided until the end of the month, then the (expensive) COBRA coverage becomes the only option for, egad, workers-in-waiting.
---------------------------------
Hi Baron,
Good comment on GPS- esp. WAAS improved accuracy- guess it depends on the resolution of the database when comparing it to RadAlt when landing.
Here's a down right spiffy product that might make living with terrain ambiguity, a little more...prolonged:
VistaNav Synthetic Vision
BEG,
You make it so hard:
All you do to put this sort of text into a post without it turning into a link, is use < for each <, to stop it from being used as html
<a href="web address goes here">whatever you want to call it</a>
TBMs_R_Us,
Well, er, yeah.
(what the heck is a "<"?)
(Thanks! :)
p.s.- one other nifty thing is being able to "name" the link whatever you want to, from discriptive, to, ah, "colorful".
Baron,
Obviously you've never flown with a radar altimeter.
Citing the presence of radar altimeter in the Andes accident as something that didn't help avoid the terrain displays your ignorance.
Obviously, radar altimeter is not used for forward terrain avoidance. It is used for situational awareness on approach. Your earlier post about too much information adding to risk on approach misses the actual use of it completely. On an EFIS display (or PFD), the radar altimeter readout is a small numeric display in the upper right hand corner. You set the DH into the altimeter when you brief the approach. Then, it will ding when you get to DH. No work load at all, just a nice chime that says you're 200 feet above the ground (or whatever DH is). If it chimes and you aren't at the MAP (for an ILS) you might want to know that before you slam into the ground short of the runway. I also use it on some visual approaches, where there is higher terrain on the arrival than at the airport. I'm not using it for terrain avoidance, but for situational awareness to be sure that I'm above 1000 AGL. For example, the STAR into KSDL brings you over parts of Scottsdale that over 1000 feet higher than the airport just a few miles north of the airport. The radar altimeter gives me AGL at a glance. No work.
Worth every penny. YMMV.
Baron95,
I repeat,
“The best terrain avoidance systems require radar altimeter input.”
Do a little remedial work on Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning Systems (EGPWS). You will discover that radar altimeter data is used in addition to GPS three-dimensional position. The best systems use multiple sensors for best prediction and warning.
My reading is that it creates jobs immediately in the building of the factory.
Agreed. I was thinking "aerospace jobs" when I wrote it, to which the maybe and someday would apply. Building a factory that will more certainly produce something - and on an ongoing basis - would be a higher and better use of available funds. I daresay that the last thing Russia needs more of, is idle airplane factory space at Aviastar.
DI
I daresay that the last thing Russia needs more of, is idle airplane factory space at Aviastar.
Perhaps the Russians have finally figured out that there's no way Roel is going to build and sell 800 units per year from the Russian factory let alone 400. Even if ABQ shuts down, it will be the same problem all over again and it probably isn't worthwile to the Russians to put up all this money into it for a plant that produces and sells closer to 40 units per year than 400. Without the high volumes and large labor pool, it's not worth it to the Russians compared to where else that money could go. The 800 units per year claims for the Russian factory are Aircraft Factory Pieper possible on the groundstill being talked about in Roel's home county.
For inquiring (or bored) minds,
the "<" sign is,
with some research,
a "less than" sign
(a.k.a., left arrow: < )
...not to be confused with a ">"
Of course.
.)
Things I should have learned in school...
BEG,
It's actually <, as in ampersand lt semicolon.
Just so no-one is mislead, there is likely NO COBRA COVERAGE that will be available from Eclipse Aviation Corporation.
For COBRA to be available, EAC would have to continue to pay the insurers for group medical coverage.
Either way, sale or liquidation, EAC medical coverage will cease to exist and COBRA WILL NOT BE AN OPTION for terminated employees.
Eclipse Jet may negotiate with insurers to continue the same or similar coverage plan for the employees that get re-hired by Eclipse Jet.
I just didn't want the comments here on COBRA to mislead Eclipse employees. When a company goes out of business, COBRA is not an option. COBRA laws only cover laid off workers of companies that continue to operate and maintain a health insurance plan for the remaining employees.
TBM, I'm very familiar with and have a radar alt on the Baron.
And BT, yes having BOTH, on an integrated system/presentation MAY be better.
TBM the question I was addressing is having a TWAS/EGPWS-like system based on GPS with a high res terrain database and obstructions vs Radar Altimeter.
The example you gave, the chime on ILS/DH, the radar alt would save you if and only if you descended below say 200ft AGL too soon - i.e. way past full scale dow deflection on ILS.
I would not save you if:
- There was a tower/obstruction in the ILS path that was more than 200ft tall and you descended into it.
- if you went way past full deflection horizontally and struck another tower or rapidly rising terrain.
- a guizilion other scenarios.
A GPS-based TWAS would start painting graphically yellow terrain on my PFD/MFD would paint every tall structure/tower obstruction in red, and would paint terrain in red that is higher than where I am/will be and will call out verbally the terrain or obstructions to me - not a chime.
You just can't compare the utility of the two.
I often shoot a localizer approach into Danbury Airport in CT. Final approach course is tight between two mountains on each side.
I do not (personal minimum restriction) fly that approach (even night VFR) on any plane, radar altimeter or not, without a graphical TWAS map - if the plane does not have one, my portable Garmin TWAS goes to the panel on the terrain/obstruction page.
We need to move on as aviators. The real safety improvement for night and IFR flight for most pilots will come for graphical terrain obstruction presentation on an SVS-like setup and clear verbal alerts of danger. Not chimes at 200 AGL looking vertically down vs at the path ahead.
Yes, sure, on an analog, non map era, an analog radar alt was better than nothing. Now, it is very, very inadequate.
If I had to send out a low time IFR pilot to shoot a night IFR loc approach to Danbury, I want him to have a terrain-avoidance map with voice call-outs. Not a radar alt chime.
Another example, I never ever came close to landing gear up, but the second that a clear verbal gear up/down alerting system became available for the Baron, it went on the panel. It is not ideal, as it sometimes warns "(female loud "Check Gear, Check Gear") based on flying a couple of knots slower on climb out.
Why is it there? It works, it is cheap. Someday I'm hoping to get an insurance break, etc. But mostly because one day I may be stressed out beyond my breaking point (say low night IFR, one engine failed, turbulence, avionics failures). Who know. Point is, I don't need to rely on beeps that sound like a stall warning or other things. I'll have the same whiny voice telling me to check gear. I had to spend zero neurons to do it.
And boy, you can't miss that voice. She is an EX-WIFE for sure. ;)
Baron,
I never said that radar altimeter is better than TAWS, in fact I said more than once that they are different things. My aircraft has both, and I would not sacrifice TAWS. If I could only have one, I'd choose TAWS. But I like both.
My point about ILS is that when you read the accident reports, people do get below glidepath and impact the ground short of the runway. Don't know if the "ding" would get you to pull up and go missed, and I don't intend to find out.
I do use the situation awareness of the AGL readout frequently.
We are on the same page TBM. Full agreement.
I think sales of radar alt for GA will take a nose dive though.
We do need Garmin (and others) to add AGL readouts on the PFDs/MFDs though. They already calculate it in real time for the TWAS display.
Lets put it front and center in front of the pilots.
Good news for all of you who have been furloughed. Count your blessings! You are close to being freed from what has been a truely abusive situation. Think of all the crap and drama that you have had to endure. Those of you that had the good sense to leave were very wise and refused to be mistreated and used. Those of you who have chosen to stick it out have been used and discarded like a piece of trash. You have been treated like crap. Expectations of you have been off the charts. Cancelled holidays, long periods of trauma filled wait and sees. You’ve have worked ridiculous hours and then were mistreated when you failed to meet unrealistic expectations.
Thank your lucky stars that you are finally released and may have the good fortune of finding an employer who really appreciates and respects you. Time away from loved ones, families and relationships put on hold. Irreparable damage for many. One sacrifice after another. Always a carrot dangled to keep you hooked. Eclipse for some of you has been like a drug. You’re free. Rejoice! You are being forced to reevaluate you loyalties and perhaps understand what is really important in life.
Chalk this up as a learning experience and move on. You’re better than this. Get angry. You’ve been totally screwed over. Tell all the ones you’ve loved and ignored that you are truly sorry.
Mini Snippet
Just in case anyone thinks the weekends are quite around here...
1. Serious efforts continue to close the deal with Roel. Everyone involved seems committed to 'getting it done'. Only one fly in the ointment. Roel does not seem to have any money....
2. A 'critical supplier' of bits for the FPJ is on it's last legs. They need cash, and need it 'within days' or another piece of this complex jigsaw will go missing, forever.
Sorry I don't have any good news, which I'd be more than happy to post. This sad mess is beginning to get even ME down...
Shane
I have been reading this blog for quite some time and the posts have been very informative and quite accurate. Its quite possible that there was some 'monkey business' going on with respect to taking depositors funds, and doing so knowing that the aircraft were not going to be delivered. Also allegedly deposits being accepted while a bankruptcy was being planned. It would be extraordinarily helpful if you were a WITNESS to this sort of activity, and willing to provide details, it would go a long way towards bringing this unfortunate episode to an end by allowing those responsible for these such actions to be held accountable. It is unfair to the hard working employees to have the company history tarnished by the actions of a few in management. If you are willing to do the right thing, please contact me via email:
enronjetvlj@gmail.com
nofpj4me,
you already have what you need... you really do not need witnesses. What would they have witnesses?
Vern rubbing his hands saying "Moo-Ha-Ha, I am going to get the deposit money knowing full well we'll never make 500 planes in yr-1" or, "we'll fly the plane with the bogus engine, take the deposit money, and THEN tell everyone we're looking for another endine, that one is going in the garbage 'cause it didn't work and never had a chance" ??
All someone needs to do it file a suit, based on these two events, and take some depositions.
The record is there. There are a lot of people who don't care anymore about their relationship with say, Peg, or Vern.. and would gladly be honest.
PS. Peter Reed CFO left the company a long time ago... something tells me, he knew everything and just got out early.
http://kob.com/article/stories/S797521.shtml?cat=0
I take this to mean they are elible for UI benefits
TBMs wrote, "My point about ILS is that when you read the accident reports, people do get below glidepath and impact the ground short of the runway. Don't know if the "ding" would get you to pull up and go missed, and I don't intend to find out."
Agree with that. But...
The Eclipse gives a very nice "minimums" callout on every approach. You don't need a radar altimeter for that.
The Eclipse TAWS is the KGP 560 EGPWS. Accuracy with ordinary GPS is within 75 feet vertically; with WAAS input it is typically within 1.5 M. This unit neither needs nor accepts radar altimeter input.
The Eclipse TAWS provides all the usual terrain/obstacle warnings including the 500 foot warning when approaching a published runway. That warning is redundant to the minimums callout and provides an opportunity to confirm final landing configuration.
The system additionally provides an altitude warning if it detects a discrepancy between aircraft altimeter and computed geodetic sea level altitude.
Bottom line: in the Eclipse, a radar altimeter provides little or no additional safety, and is therefore largely a waste of money.
Ken
Ken,
Do you have a continuous AGL readout on your PFD?
"and is therefore largely a waste of money."
Unless, of course, there is GPS outage, (or even a WAAS Loss of Integrity, which I see all the time in mountainous terrain) and then all your TAWS functions (which require GPS input to work) are either TU or working at reduced accuracy.
Ken, my man, I continue to be overwhelingly impressed with the fact that you seem to know everything worth knowing!
"We do need Garmin (and others) to add AGL readouts on the PFDs/MFDs though."
This has been a feature of the Chelton FMS/EFIS system for years. Very useful, especially in a helo. It is sufficiently sophisticated to select the best of up to three available alt sources: baro, GPS, or radar alt, and it dispalys which source is presently being used.
“The best terrain avoidance systems require radar altimeter input.”
BT is bullseye with this statement. B95, do your homework and dont fall into the Ken pattern of knowing it all.
Ken,
OK, have you ever flown an aircraft that has continuous AGL readout in the primary instrument scan?
Once you have, you wouldn't want it any other way. Why do you think virtually every jet out there has radar altimeter? Must be a lot of owners wasting money, lacking your insight.
'Obviously, radar altimeter is not used for forward terrain avoidance'
Right. By the time you see the terrain on the RA, it way too late. RA looks down (level flight). TAWS looks ahead and down based on acft position (from GPS). RA has no knowledge of terrain except what is sees at any given instant. TAWS has a comprehensive built in database of terrain and obstructions over a very wide geographic area. An RA input to TAWS improves the quality of the TAWS advisories.
Its a no brainer that TAWS is the preferred choice if you can have only one, but a TAWS with integrated RA will do the best job and provide some redundancy.
"TAWS has a comprehensive built in database of terrain and obstructions"
Keep in mind that radar alt is an actual measurement. TWAS advisories are estimates based on the GPS position/alt inputs AND the contents of the database. In the US the database accuracy is pretty good for terrain (which does not move around much), and not as good for obstructions, which change relatively often. My TAWS databse supplier spells out a warning on every update that the obstruction data may not be accurate or complete.
Outside the US, where surveys may be less rigorous or non existent, even the terrain data may be suspect.
Years ago,
I had a Radar Altimeter in a Piper Aztec I flew. It was simply a height above terrain read out. What a relief of pressure when I was in "duck soup" and that readout was there in addition to the altimeter on approach.....ESPECIALLY in strange places....That’s my feelings on the need for it.
"that readout was there in addition to the altimeter on approach....."
Right on. Keep in mind that baro alt is no more than an estimate based on what the pressure was at some place some time ago - its not an actual measurement of (AGL) alt. In this sense RA is the only actual measurement of AGL the pilot has available.
y-tek,
no real comments on the current escapades of RP?
What's your read on the financing, ABQ plant, CH7... where this will go?
Law suits?
cheers
A phrase(or similar) from an old movie comes to mind when on approach in the soup at night, all alone:
"..alone, in the dark, by yourself, when no one is there to help you.."
Hi Flyboymark,
...Was that from a...Diehard (!!) commercial?
.)
One might struggle to understand the relationship between ETIRC's funding and EAC ABQ. As far as I can tell there is none. That is, even if RP get's funded, none of that money will go to standing EAC ABQ back up.
TBMs wrote, "Why do you think virtually every jet out there has radar altimeter? Must be a lot of owners wasting money, lacking your insight."
Actually, it doesn't matter whether some TAWS units take radar altimetry inputs or not. That's not a requirement of the TAWS-B TSO, and the Eclipse radar altimeter does not input into the Honeywell EGPWS.
So the argument that some TAWS units use radar altimetry is a spurious one--it doesn't make any difference if your airliner has a radar altimeter input to its TAWS, it won't do that on the Eclipse (or the Mustang for that matter). If a guy wants a radar altimeter because he thinks it's helping his TAWS unit in an Eclipse or a Mustang, he lacks insight and he's wasting his money.
Radar altimetry is not available in the Mustang--not even as an option--that plane uses a TAWS B from Garmin with no radar input. So much for the "every other jet" argument you offered.
So, what then does a radar altimeter do? About the only really useful thing it does is tell you when you've hit minimums. Eclipse already does that. A decent TAWS replaces pretty much all the other cornball uses of a radar altimeter mentioned here.
To be clear--do you think a radar altimeter will help avoid hitting things? To do that, you'd have to believe in look-down terrain avoidance. As the diagram shows your radar altimeter can read 1000 feet just 20 seconds before you hit something!
Ken
"he lacks insight and he's wasting his money."
"he lacks insight and he's wasting his money."
"he lacks insight and he's wasting his money."
"he lacks insight and he's wasting his money."
Keep saying it, and perhaps all your lost eclipse money will come back to you...
Ken,
You are such a tool!
OK, so putting a RA in an Eclipse is a waste of money because the designers of the aircraft never figured out how to do it right.
You've answered, by omission, the question about having a continuous AGL display on your PFD, and the related question about your own experience with same. Now you have this cockamamy post about an RA not telling you you're about to hit the ground while a TAWS will. I guess you'll stick to your ignorance as long as you possibly can!
We can agree on one thing, an RA in an Eclipse is a waste of money. Of course, my position is that any investment in an Eclipse was a waste of money. And your position must be that you are the wisest aircraft purchaser on the planet, and now the best trained most knowledgeable aviator around, who doesn't need no stinking RA.
B.E.G.,
From: "The Haunting"
Diehard may have used it from there too.
Ken,
COOL YOUR JETS...again!
RA is precise real time alt. info, not a navigational device as you are infering. AND it does not depend on a "database" that might have an error or a computer that for some reason jus' did'nt update fast enough from the GPS info. AND it's used in a mannor where you generaly "know" what's there. Jus' a precise simple, reliable, device that backs up a lot of other things(like flakey analog slaved altimiters)
EX: 'Jeese..did set the altimiter? ATC says I'm 100' below glide slope?
(followed by a serious case of roadrash at 70-150KTS depending on airplane)
B95 / Ken,
WhyTech is on track here ...
Great point about the absence of look ahead with RadAlt, but not knowing where you are is what gets you killed. Your GPS TAWS can look great 20 seconds before you realize you cannot outclimb the rising terrain.
It is the combination of systems that provides safety margin.
While I agree that your GPS vs WAAS vertical accuracy observations are the exact reason that LPV approaches can get you lower, it is the algorithmic predictive limitation of the "vertical loop" that established the LPV minima.
If you are 2 dots low (or left, right, high) on an ILS you should be considering going missed, not wondering what TAWS or RadAlt shows.
If you know there is an obstacle on the approach and you allow the airplane to decend below safe limits, then you are a candidate for natural (de)selection.
What percentage of your precision approaches were flown with a RadAlt ?
What percentage of your flight time is in an airplane that requires TAWS-A ?
Just because you have found utility in the recent luxury of WAAS, or that your airplane only requires TAWS-B does not obviate the deterministic advantage of a RadAlt on precision approaches.
Did you know that some of the most accurate navigation systems use only RadAlt ?
Did you know that EGPWS algorithms use the RadAlt vs Geometric Clearance delta to refine the solution ... and that the true value of EGPWS is the look ahead feature?
Did you know that the FAA Boston ACO actually issued an hazard letter regarding avionics that display GPS based AGL ?
Chelton has a TAWS class database, the x95/x96 do not. VistaNav does not.
There are no regulatory requirements for any of those databases to he current, include all obstacles to navigation, etc. Using any of those for anything more than SA is a death wish.
That rant aside ... If your cockpit does not provide a comprehensive electronic map, using any decent EFB or GPSMAP for SA is a must for IFR or mountain flying. Just don't get sucked into the manufacturer's claims, position it within your primary field of view, and REALY understand it's limitations.
And Ken,
Another slip of the tounge on my part;
retired from welding and fabricating and have been a computer systems integrator/reseller and MSCNE for the last 12 years. So I know alot about software, databases, and how the hardware acts. Dependence on a single operating system for an airplane with no true redundency is jus' plain scary to me.......
FlyBoy,
To jump onto Ken's side for a second (ahhhhhhh) ... the KGP-560 is a GREAT piece of gear. If you own a serious GA airplane, you better have at least a KGP system.
Zed,
Second the motion, and the IHAS-8000 is best of all.
Wonderful ZED,
But the Aztec I flew with RA "years" ago is gone and as I said “simple RA” and the 600 Aerostar is still steam gauges too. But the nav system in the 600 is a UPS MX-20 and CNX-80 with all the bells and whistles. We're updating with two Aspen displays soon and looking at a couple of engine analog to digital engine gauge displays...when the money starts coming in again. RA might be added at MY request. What I don’t know, is if interfaces with the CNX-80 and MX-20 and Aspen when we get it put in...hmmmmm, I gotta’ read the manual, you got my curiosity up…
flyboy,
Hook in with Gus Kyriakos at Aspen. He is Chief Engineer there, designed all the radios at Avidyne, and was at Collins before that.
Discuss your installation, and tell them your wants and needs. Gus and John U understand where the market is. Give them a shot at incorporating your RadAlt, etc.
Z
Fly Boy writes, "'Jeese..did set the altimiter? ATC says I'm 100' below glide slope?"
That would be because Fly Boy forgot to do his altitude crosscheck at the nonprecision FAF :)
"(followed by a serious case of roadrash at 70-150KTS depending on airplane)"
Hmmm. I guess Fly Boy doesn't know it's impossible to get roadrash flying 100' below the glideslope on a CAT I ILS unless you also bust the minimums.
"COOL YOUR JETS"
Fly Boy, I'm just an ordinary pilot who pays attention to detail. Maybe when you do, you'll become Fly Man and have jet engines to cool, too :)
Ken
Ken said,
"it's largely a waste of money"
Radar Altimeter is required equipment for Cat II approaches. That is why I ordered it :)
Ken,
Are your minimums based on your non redundant flight system that is already proven to be error prone?
And that covers your final approach fix too.....
The simple analogy was to draw attention to the NEED of RA
A smart guy like you ought to get the drift of the discussion instead of transferring attention to spelling and semantics of the discussion to avoid confrontation of the facts.
Zed,
Could not find anything in the Aspen manuals, blasted an email to them. The UPS manuals are in the plane, will check them tommorrow.
Fly boy wrote, "Are your minimums based on your non redundant flight system that is already proven to be error prone?"
That doesn't make any sense. What the heck are you talking about?
Ken
EA500S wrote, "Radar Altimeter is required equipment for Cat II approaches. That is why I ordered it :)"
Good reason, except that it's wrong.
Ken
Ken,
Maybe I worded it wrong....
If your flight system is in error...you have no idea where you are! Can I make it any simpler?
Ken Meyer said...
EA500S wrote, "Radar Altimeter is required equipment for Cat II approaches. That is why I ordered it :)"
Good reason, except that it's wrong.
Ken
It is if the inner marker is out. :)
You know hate to break up this RA lovefest. And not rheumatoid arthritis...
Anyways i was going through some pics of the NG 1.5 system and I noticed there is only a very rudimentary moving map display. I am sure that it can get a pilot by, however does anyone know if there is/was a plan in the works for like a real color moving map that is similar to what one would see on like an avidyne MFD or like a G1000?
EclipsePilotOMSIV No
EclipsePilot, yes.
A summary of the planned updates was outlined in Eclipse Flyer vol 1 issue 4--full-featured moving map, datalink weather product overlay, approach plates, SIDs, STARs, and autothrottle were all on that listing.
Ken
Ken,
So your aircraft does not have electronic charts? Or geo-referenced approach plates showing the aircraft position on the plate? Or taxi diagrams showing aircraft position on the surface? Or XM weather overlay on your flight path?
And Baron says this is better than what?
TBM,
Yeah we get it. The avionics are not perfect at this point in time. Give yourself a nice pat on the back. Or better yet, go jerk off. Get yourself off like the rest of the young boys.
Hey I just found a great deal....Eclipse Jets has posted an ad on February 3rd for s/n 316. Only $2,095,000!
Is this a joke?
hi,
something to remember RP said last year (2008):
- there is a need of approx. $200M to restructure EAC etc.
- there is a need of approx. $300M to ramp up production to 200+ fjps.
UBS should find an investor...
If these figures are somehow correct - then there is a need for money resp. an investor.
If RP would pass the $28M to the judge he will get back less than $28M - his stalking horse and DIP exepense and then would have to close ABQ.
Under the current conditions of ch 11 it may be according to the rules to reduce the work force to zero - but that is no solution for ramping up production or obtaining a full EASA cert or...
Without investor it makes no sense to pay the judge's bill...
What kind of investor is RP looking for?
The investor anticipates ROI because the full EASA cert and the US resp. FFA regions sales...
RP must find someone - it's also better for his ego...
I do not believe that RP's Russian and European friends will be officially delighted if he reports his failure.
BTW: What about the parts and tools which belong to WESCO - are they still in ABQ?
Julius
P.S.:What is the real value of EAC?
TBMs asked, "So your aircraft does not have electronic charts? Or geo-referenced approach plates showing the aircraft position on the plate? Or taxi diagrams showing aircraft position on the surface? Or XM weather overlay on your flight path?"
Of course it does. Every one of those items. And actually they're better and easier to use than the ones on the EX-500 in my previous plane.
Ken
Ken Meyer said...
Of course it does. Every one of those items. And actually they're better and easier to use than the ones on the EX-500 in my previous plane.
Be honest, Ken, all those charts and the weather come on a portable PC and are not built into the airplane. In other words, anybody with a 172 could have the same setup, so don't leave the implication hanging that this is all part of the EA500, it isn't.
Ken has *no option* to have weather or charts built into the EA500. None. So much for "integration".
I have to get this off my chest: I'm an Eclipse owner and I know I've made some stupid mistakes. But I hope the readers of this blog don't think we are all as stupid and dishonest as Ken. Every time I see that he has posted again I cringe.
The avionics are not perfect at this point in time.
EclipsePilotOMSIV,
A bit testy about it? At which point in time are they going to be grown up avionics? You guys bought a pig in a poke!
Yeah ken that was a bit of a stretch. The 496 is not actually part of avio. Neither is your computer with WxWorx.
Mike (flyger) Ciholas writes, "Ken has *no option* to have weather or charts built into the EA500. None. So much for 'integration.'"
Mike, you know that's not right. That's kaka. You're assuming there will be further upgrade path the EA500, and you don't know that. You're projecting your hope as it were fact and trusting that nobody can tell the difference. That's about as intellectually dishonest as one can get.
In fact, there are plans for all that stuff to be integrated into Avio NG. In the interim, I have weather, approach plates, moving map and the like via tablet, just like you do. I don't see you bitching about how awful your plane is because you're using a tablet. And I don't see you spending the money to get those things in your panel either. If they're all that essential, why don't you spring the money to do it in your own plane? Are you too cheap or too broke? :)
Ken
[Eclpse pilot--I didn't stretch; I said my plane has that stuff. And it does. If the critics profess to know so much that they are qualified to complain about the Eclipse, then they obviously shouldn't need to be spoon fed details of its setup. What you're really saying if you think I stretched, is that the complainers don't know what they're talking about. Now that may be!]
Ken Meyer, be honest now, how many cycles do you have on your Eclipse?
Ken,
I admit, I don't know anywhere near as much about your aircraft as you do.
In fact, there are plans for all that stuff to be integrated into Avio NG.
Ok, I bite, WHO has these plans?
Ken,
You are tryig to make the case for your dishonesty, based on the argument that critics don't know any better...
Problem is, I see everyone disagreeing with you, and you still nit pick your way into justifying your lies.
Like the "I got scammed" guy just wrote... you make both sides of this blog (critics and supporters) cringe.
It is amazing to me, how you can stretch things to try to make yourself feel OK about what you have done, and how you got stuck.
If you are really OK with what you ended up with, you shuldn't have to exaggerate, nit pic or lie.
Calling someone "broke or cheap" just sounds like... well, you know, somepme who risked money and got porked with an incomplete Eclipse-500, or deposits taken with noting in return.
I guess you are bringing both sides, critics and supporters closer together.
Thanks
Julius,
The UBS position on these matters is unclear. One source claimed they had withdrawn and had nothing further to do with Roel and/or EAC. Another said they were still involved.
Either way, EAC needs a truckload of money to get going again. At this stage any purchaser will need to do a 'mini' stimulus package for the suppliers, especially those that 'bet the farm' on the EAC orders.
There are 230 odd '60%' depositors who need something to keep them on the hook, plus 450+ '10%' who represent the next best option for further cash.
And owners need service, parts and some handholding.
Which brings me to this sill discussion about avionics.
When will the rest of you ever learn?
For more than two years now, Ken Meyer has been in denial about his FPJ, both before he got it and now that he's flying in it.
The FPJ is PERFECT. There is not one SINGLE thing that could be done to improve it. The designers at EAC were so far ahead of the field that nothing will come close to it, for at least the next 1,000 years.
Et cetera, et cetera.
You are all fools.
Fools for engaging with a man who's aircraft is going AOG, probably forever, in a few days/weeks/month (delete as appropriate) precisely BECAUSE the guys and girls who designed it were so far ahead of everyone else.
Nobody except the marvelous people at EAC stands any chance whatsoever of understanding these systems, never mind offering support and service.
Ken, however, will never admit this. Even when the FPJ achieves 'warbird' status and is kept going as a curiosity by a few dedicated enthusiasts, Ken will still be droning on about 'lbs per hour' and 'low running costs'.
I can hear the mantra now, in my head.
Whatever happens next, Ken can throw away any ideas of having a cheap aircraft. He's lost one deposit and will probably lose the ConJet one as well. If Roel does win, he will charge Ken and his merry band a fortune for parts and service....
Shane
hallo, Julius...
es ist eine lange Zeit seit Ihrem letzten Posten gewesen ...!
how much is worth EAC ?
A: Kein Geld !
at the time being , it wouldn't be a sign of cleverness to put a cent into something representing more a money-abyss than anything else ...
if anyone compare the good & the bad : one column is going to be full , the other nearly empty ...
is there any need to say which one ? ;-)
on the Russian front , VEB has asked for Emergency Bail-out (as well as many others ) of some 2 Billions$ , so they have nothing left for entertainment such as this saga ...
Zed, and all, this is a circular discussion, but I actually thing everyone is in the same page.
GPS-based (or GPS+other sensors-based) graphical terrain/obstacle warning and avoidance equipment on the pilots PFD/MFD, suplemented by SVS/EVS with continuous AGL display and voice alerts is the optimum set up.
A radar altimeter can provide some benefit, particularly in the planes that don't have all the above.
Perhaps where the difference of opinion is real is the concept of "more is better" that some here advocate vs the concept that a clean and minimalist panel is better for single pilot ops. I am a firm believer that a plane (panel) for personal flying (i.e. single-pilot occasional flights), should have just a clean panel that provides just enough information with simple controls to achieve a target safety level and nothing else. Anything else you add beyond that has, on average, a negative safety impact.
You can see this difference of approach EXACTLY displayed by the last two single-engine flight decks to be certified.
Take a look at the Pilatus PC12 NG glass panel and compare it with the Cirrus Perspective panel
You can argue forever if one is better than the other. It is a difference of approach. The PC-12 APEX has 5 Glass panels and over 400 knobs and buttons - count it - yet, presents a tiny artificial horizon in front of the pilot. The Cirrus perspective presents a huge "synthetic/HUD-like" view smack in front of the single pilot and has 85% less knobs and buttons.
I am a firm believer that the average personal IFR flier will be incredibly saver bedind a Perspective panel than behind an Apex panel. And on top of that, the Perspective panel costs and weights less than 1/3 of the Apex.
So, for me, less is better, but others may disagree. It is great to have choices.
I loved the fact that Eclipse (10 years ago) was attempting to certify a "clean" panel on a jet with just enough buttons and knobs and screens to get the job done, and no more. Too bad they got delayed, but their vision/goal is still the right one. As is Cirrus'.
Shane I think you are being overly harsh again. It is obvious you really HATE EAC and the aircraft. There have been quite a few people on here telling us that the plane is not that bad. I myself think the plane is pretty darn good as well. The avionics are another issue all together. However, the plane still flies with them, and does an OK job. Even now there are third party shops doing work on these aircraft. In fact I know of one doing an UPGRADE on an E500. Vendors are starting to sell parts to customers, more will follow. I know more will follow, you have seen what CWMR has been saying just like I have. I also think Roel is a businessman. Unethical at times yes, however I think he is trying to hold all of this together as best he can at this point. I DO NOT think the guy is stupid. If his buyout goes as planned there will be service coverage for this aircraft in the future. He would be shooting himself in the foot if he dumps us. But this is speculation.
I think Vern struck a nerve with you a bit, and I have watched how your seemingly calm demeanor can evaporate at a moments notice, just by saying the guy called you a cockroach. You are very biased and it is very obvious. But this is the Critic blog. Anybody can post here, stupid, crazy, old, hippies, diehards, or indifferent.
Shane:
"There are 230 odd '60%' depositors who need something to keep them on the hook, plus 450+ '10%' who represent the next best option for further cash."
Shane, is this a joke?
Someone who "invested" $150k or so, in a $1.25 million jet, cannot be considered a customer/depositor for a $2.5M jet... especially considering, they placed their deposit with a company they (could) think was a going concern.
IIRC, most of those 450 were Roel's own deposits from himself, and unless you know something I don't (entirely possible) I doubt his 300 or so orders had $150k each behind them.
Lastly, the 60%-ers... this IS a tough one. I still cannot imagine, no matter how pot committed these guys are, they will ever put up more cash, to buy the $2.5M ea-50... too much risk, to many problems.
The show is over, folks. There are no longer 800 or so (claimed) "actors" in a factory in ABQ, being used to make it look like there's some hope in hell you will ever get a plane.
Now, the show is closed down, and there's a sign on the doors: "moved to the Bolshoi - opening night Tuesday, Feb 29, 2011"
Advanced tickets sales begin, soon.
See you at the show.
OMSIV,
man, this topic gets one's nerves ruffled, for sure!! IN the old days a few years ago, I posted some pretty nasty things. Its a matter of getting used to the perspectives, I guess.
On balance, I thnk Shane has been pretty respectful.
Right now, he's probably got a better read on the "situation" than most of us. If it looks harsh, he's probably trying to shake some sense loose.
From my perspective, he does not appear angry - just wants to make sure everyone understands:
1- Its a dream to think ABQ will be running again... I am not saying there's no chance, but, its really a very small chance
2- Ken keeps touting his plane as perfect - sorry, this guy has revealed himself for what he is, a long time ago
3- Vern and ROEL shafeted a lot of people, toether - remember this. Even before the sales to himself, RP was on the board, and part of thie scam (As I will put it).
IMO, he is not that smart - no one would ever invest in EAC, make claims of hundreds of orders from himself, and then take over this mess, if he was smart. I will conclude by saying, IF he has a plan, whereby he can produce this plane in marketable numbers, and make money at $2.5M, I would like to see how.
This is the brain dammage that he has inherited, and unless he has a shortimers way of off loading this mess to the Ruskies, he's not a bright guy.
Tell me how:
- produce conventional production rates and sell enough planes at $2.5M to make money?
I'll concede, if he knows, he's a smart guy.
PS. I fault him BIG TIME, for all along maintaining that ABQ will not be shuttered. This was a BIG FAT LIE.
Ken Meyer said...
Mike (flyger) Ciholas writes,
Is this some sort of fetish with you? Man, you need pyscho help if you are calling other people his name and photoshopping his head on your body.
Well, I guess that does explain a lot about how you came to own an EA500.
That's about as intellectually dishonest as one can get.
You imply you have stuff you don't, and I point it out. So I'm the dishonest one. Right...
Dug yourself a hole on that one!
Ken wrote A summary of the planned updates was outlined in Eclipse Flyer vol 1 issue 4--full-featured moving map, datalink weather product overlay, approach plates, SIDs, STARs, and autothrottle were all on that listing.
That is a funny post Ken. Thanks. Black Tulip will be fighting to hold his place as blog resident satirist with you posting gems like this.
Just one question Ken, what was the date on Eclipse Flyer vol 1 issue 4 please?
ATM said.... Lastly, the 60%-ers... this IS a tough one. I still cannot imagine, no matter how pot committed these guys are, they will ever put up more cash, to buy the $2.5M ea-50... too much risk, to many problems.
ATM, how do you explain that 27 out of 28 position holders for the aircraft in process, accepted RP's offer to buy the aircraft at the new price by ponying up mo mulah? Wouldn't the 60%-ers be in the same boat with a decent coupon?
Autothrottle – (ow-tow-thra-til), noun
1. A function of advanced aircraft autopilots which maintains preset airspeed or mach number by adjusting power setting of the engines.
2. An attempt at self asphyxiation observed in a small set of aircraft owners, depositors and investors. Those involved with Eclipse Aviation have been found with hands firmly tightened around their own necks, for reasons not well understood.
baron95 said...
ATM, how do you explain that 27 out of 28 position holders for the aircraft in process, accepted RP's offer to buy the aircraft at the new price by ponying up mo mulah?
Because the choices were:
1. Accept new price that you may have to pay later,
Or:
2. Get nothing.
So what did they risk by agreeing? Nothing as of yet, therefore a meaningless display of faith. Indeed, all the 60%ers can agree to these terms which is why Eclipse still claims 1,000 "orders". Every "customer" wants to think they still have some value but this is all smoke and mirrors. When it comes time to put some money down, then don't stand in the way of the exit or you'll get trampled.
AT wrote, "Ken keeps touting his plane as perfect"
And, AT, you keep lying.
That's what it takes, I guess, when you have nothing else. And you got Shane doing it too.
I never once reported "the plane is perfect." What I did was refuse to do your homework for you when you wanted a listing of anything wrong with the plane.
AT, if you're so smart, make your own damn listing of what's wrong with the plane; you're the critic, not me. I think it's a great plane. If you want to knock it, don't expect me to give you the ammunition.
Seems to me all you ever do is moan and groan...
"The Eclipse is awful...The Eclipse is awful" blah blah blah. You and Shane ought to get married; you two obviously belong together :)
Ken
Mike (Flyger) Ciholas wrote, "Because the choices were:
1. Accept new price that you may have to pay later,
Or:
2. Get nothing."
Really? Here's a phone number for you:
305-579-0500
That's the PLG lawyer, Paul Keenan. You need to phone him and tell him how he screwed up, 'cause he didn't know those were their only two possibilities when he filed their case for them.
Luckily, you can still set them straight.
Ken
I never knock the plane - I just say a few things that I know:
- its too risky, you have no clue what's really going on regarding any aspect of safety, becasue the company lies and built the planes in desperation - not my idea of a safety culture
- little things pop up on this blog that just interest me, like the windshield heat problem, discussed on this blog. You were dead wrong on that one, too Ken - you just blindly trusted that there were no problems related to the heat, and that EAC chose to cert the system as part of FIKI by choice... not so.
I am not your biggest target, here, becasue I really do not critique the plane.. I actually don't have to, so many other folks (including owners) do.
I know you are perfectly happy with your "best ever produced" EA50- I am happy for you... but you seem to be very defensive about it, and many of your posts are pretty angry, and also, misleading.
Even your co-owners say you are not being up front. That's just sad. It starts to feel like, unless you are dishonest with yourself and others, and mischaracterize the EA50, you will be unhappy.
My read, anyway.
Glad you love your plane.
Eclipse, the manufacturer, doesn't exist any more.
All Eclipse service centers are closed.
All Eclipse training centers are closed.
It is highly unlikely the doors in ABQ will open again.
It is extremely unlikely that a factory in Russia will ever start building EA500's.
There are only a handful of vendors that can supply only a few parts for the EA500, and those parts are VERY expensive.
Left standing is a fleet of slightly more than 250 partially completed EA500's and their owners who really need to be directing their thoughts towards how the existing fleet is going to be supported. Like the MU2, it is extremely unlikely that the EA500 will likely ever return. Or if it does re-emerge some day in the distant future when the global recession/depression is over, the EA500 will probably be a much different aircraft than we see today.
There are a lot of smart people here on the blog. A lot of good resources that could be utilized to support the existing fleet of EA500's.
Irony .
That's a (seemingly misunderstood) term which I use from time to time as a device to attract attention.
Ken, you never said the plane couldn't be improved in a 1,000 years either. But did go on (and on and on) about how cheap it was, and why nothing else could come close. I think you might be coming around to the idea that it might not be as 'low cost' to run under whatever new regime takes over the asylum a.k.a. EAC. And charges the Production Line Group $1.375 million EXTRA for the dubious privilege of collecting the FPJ they have already paid an average of $900,000 for.
EclipsePilot,
I don't really hate anyone or anything. I don't like green peppers or overcooked meats and there are a few people I'd cross the street to avoid, but I'm on record (in a public interview) as saying I'd be happy to share a pint with Wedge.
Even if he did refer to ALL of us (not just me) as 'cockroaches'.
No, what I don't like about the previous as well as the current (and possibly future) management at EAC is that they lied.
Lied to suppliers about volumes and getting paid.
Lied to customers about deliveries and getting refunds.
Lied to staff about everything else.
When I use the term 'lie' I mean that they told "stories' which they knew were untrue at the time they were telling them.
I'll go further than that. I'm increasingly of the view that this became a scam in or about the same time that Stan's first threw a spotlight on their activities. Re read his original post from April 2006
Tell me what he got wrong.
Now, tell me I'm wrong, to highlight those like Ken who continue to 'promote' this aircraft to the unsuspecting and gullible.
Which is, in its' own way, a scam. The FPJ will turn out to be a very expensive toy, costing a fortune to run and depreciating like a cliff.
Even if Roel manages to 'rescue' his Chapter 11 deal.
You know, the one what was prepackaged and ready to rock and roll way back on the 25th of November 2008.
No, I don't hate anyone. Not even failed scammers...
ATman,
There were just over 460 individual, named. 10% depositors. ETIRC was only ONE of those. Just as I counted the 60%'s as individuals, some had clearly paid multiple's for more than one FPJ.
Madness, I know. But clearly they had something like 900 genuine, cash backed orders for the FPJ. Plus nearly 100 for the ConJet.
If only Vern had been honest about his order book, we would have been mightily impressed. Instead he followed SOP (for a scam artist) and continued to lie.
Shane
re. someone (not cliff clavin)above stating vendors are starting to sell parts.
what vendors are now selling parts to owners? do (did) these vendors receive PMA approval or was it not required for whatever reason?
also can someone educate me on how exactly the eclipse could be sold as a completed aircraft in the experimental catagory, cause i don't believe it to be possible.
Baron:
"ATM, how do you explain that 27 out of 28 position holders for the aircraft in process, accepted RP's offer to buy the aircraft at the new price by ponying up mo mulah?"
If this is accurate, then, I am probably dead wrong regarding there being very few takers for this plane at $2.5M...
Then again, things have changed a little since that promise was made...
I am still amazed that anyone would trust this company to produce a plane worthy of their $2.5M.
Shane, thanks for the clarification... I am truly amazed... but I shouldn't really be... I always said Dayjet had around 1/2 the order book... I guess it was 1430 Dayjets vs 900 others?
Ken,
does your plane have any of the problems that the other owners here say they have?
This will not be revealing anything to us, just admitting your plane is not any better than theirs.
EclipsePilot said: "Anybody can post here, stupid, crazy, old, hippies, diehards, or indifferent."
I plead none of the above. And while I'm at it on this subject, thanks for trying to marginalize the very knowledgeable people that post here. Don't take this to mean that I consider you in the group of knowledgeable people.
Ok Shadow I will give you that. There are people here that are knowledgeable in their particular fields. However, the amount of disagreement between different "no-owner" bloggers is almost astounding. In addition there are people here that act like they know a great deal about what is going on and truly know nothing. Not to pick on him but Fred stood behind that "fact" that his friend who dealt with EASA cert., stated something along the lines of "My friend says that the E500 doesn't have a prayer of getting EASA cert." If you remember these two events coincided with the FAAs review of the E500 where many said the plane would be permanently grounded. What really happened with that? Not all that much. Then people said oh they were bought off. Then comes the EASA cert, further backing up the fact that this plane is safe. There are knowledgeable people here for sure, I mean I will not ever challenge Fred to a linguistics competition, or Shane to a Guinness chugging competition (although i do love the stuff).
I think there are a few things that have rang true here.
1) EACs business practices are shady at best.
2)Their business model did in fact rely on a great deal on airtaxis.
3)They rushed the certification.
4)They made a big mistake with R&D on a plane before they finished the first product. Which in my opinion caused the airtaxis, which they were relying on to support their business model, to fail. Which in turn caused them to fail.
5)I will not dispute their ability to produce planes at a very rapid rate, because at one time I believe they were in fact putting out 1/day. (I may be incorrect here but I seem to remember this number)
Yeah you guys have been right on a few things with all of your combined knowledge. However, I have heard that if you throw a bunch of shit at a wall something will have to stick.
As far as myself, I do have an E500. I want it to be supported. I want this company to succeed for this matter. And I have said before Planes are expensive toys any way you slice it. I bought this plane because it fit my mission plan. I will not apologize for doing so, and when I bought mine over a year ago i don't think that the writing was in fact on the wall. I know plenty of pilots who thought a great deal of this company and plane. What made Stan more right than them? How were the owners supposed to know, even if they knew of Stan's blog?
I am just saying...
I also think Roel is a businessman. Unethical at times yes, however I think he is trying to hold all of this together as best he can at this point. I DO NOT think the guy is stupid.
If you feel safe flying a plane made by the guy who picked Eclipse's pocket to buy it. If Roel really wanted to hold Eclipse together, he'd pay Eclipse the money he owes them when/if the Russian deal goes through instead of trying to trick the BK court into wiping out the money Roel owes Eclipe and letting him buy Eclipse with it. It's not in Eclipse's best interest to do an asset sale if there's 10s/100+ million dollars that would belong to Eclipse. Roel is at a minimum extremely unethical, if not much more than this being a matter of ethics. This guy afterall is the Chairman/CEO of Eclipse and as such he should be trying to get all those millions into Eclipse instead of trying to cancel the deal that would send Eclipse all that money and just let himself buy the company with the money.
Then comes the EASA cert, further backing up the fact that this plane is safe.
I recognize what you are saying, but nobody has a plane with EASA cert. The plane you were given does not have all the things that Eclipse obtained - what was produced versus what has been certified are two different things. This is why the plane has repeatedly been called "incomplete." Eclipse did come close to this (by their definition) with them saying they were hardware complete based on what was certified and would be software complete with Avio NG 2.0, but neither all the software nor all the hardware are in the units out in the field. I'm not saying that you can't be happy with your aircraft nor shouldn't be happy with your aircraft, but EASA certification doesn't prove your aircraft is safe. I have mixed feelings about what is out in the field as well as the upgrades. On one hand I'm concerned about the testimony about how the aircraft didn't receive proper FAA inspection during manufacturing, but on the other hand I'm not convinced that the later "upgrades" are really that and as such just because something is newer, it doesn't mean it is better. I analyzed the SDRs from DayJet and compared that to what upgrades they had and it looked like the aircraft with the original Avio did better than the Avio NG aircraft and that's why I'm hesistant to even call these upgrades...except when they are required for FIKI, EASA, etc. As long as parts can be obtained, the aircraft out in the field might be just fine the way they are.
EclipsePilotOMSIV said...
I also think Roel is a businessman. Unethical at times yes, however I think he is trying to hold all of this together as best he can at this point. I DO NOT think the guy is stupid.
He's already had one bite at the apple, almost exactly a year ago. He completely misjudged that situation and lost >$100M while doing it, all the while claiming his investment would set Eclipse on the road to success.
What makes you think this is any different? He doesn't even have the money this time.
Mike (Flyger) Ciholas asks, "What makes you think this is any different?"
You mean aside from the fact that he's getting a plane with icing and EASA certification, 260-300 booked sales in Europe, a completed avionics package and a production line that has demonstrated 1/day capability?
OK, I'll tell you what's different...he got to dump ~$750 million in liabilities!
"He doesn't even have the money this time."
You don't know that. Nobody on this blog knows that. Quit proposing your opinions as if they're established facts.
Ken
Well flyger, him not having the money is Eclipse's word against Shane's. Both have been wrong before.
In addition, a lot of the complaints against the airworthiness of the E500 were structural in nature. Not necessarily all about the avionics. I am sure with the pending FAA investigation of Eclipse and its safety issues, that the EASA did their due diligence regarding the airframe.
PS I have an Avio Eclipse, and it performs well in many catagories. I have mentioned my squacks with my eclipse on the previous thread, and they were indeed a hassle, but I will not condemn the plane. I have had quite a few planes, one such plane was a Piper Cheyenne II and that plane was suported well, however it was in the shop on a monthly basis for issues. It also did not have the level of integration the Eclipse does either. I am not going to sit here and lie to you and tell you I didn't wish I had what I was promised either, but hopefully that will not be that far away.
Sorry Squawks...
Restart of production should be a non-starter.
Anyone talking about that should be run away from, as fast as one can run while providing cover for their wallets.
The only possibile avenue for the existing fleet, IMO, is for the 363 to collapse and for the assets, such as they are, to go into CH-7 and hopefully find their way into the hands of a group of folks dedicated to supporting the fleet.
I am still not convinced that even then a profitable and therefore sustainable business can be built, but any talk of continuing production is, again IMO nonsense.
The order book, such as we understand it in the open, has been pretty stagnant for several years - doubt there will be any new sales in numbers that would be sustainable, so let's just agree to put that away.
The EA-500 will be relegated to one of two categories - either the same category and history as the Starship (parts removed and airframes chopped up) or the Aerostar, MU-2, Commander singles and twins, etc. (supported by several boutique shops with some parts availability and decent support).
How this plays out will be decided, I think, within the next couple weeks to a month. IF RiP somehow comes up with the coin to close on the 363, say hello to the plane that will replace the Starship as the biggest boondoggle in aviation history. There will be lots of talk, more money incinerated, and we will be in the same position, my bet says in less than 12 months - he needs a half a billion dollars, according to him, to finish - that means he needs another billion - which is inconceivable.
If the 363 collapses and somebody swoops in and picks up the necessary pieces, limited tooling (fairings, ETT tanks, etc), any inventory from the vendor base and EAC and the service centers, AND can then determine a fair way to go about upgrading all planes to a singular configuration AND then price support such that realistic and safe support can be provided AT A PROFIT, then, and only then, MIGHT there be a future for the now essentially orphaned EA-500 fleet.
Snake,
I've heard of you, I thought you were dead ;^)
The PMA point is a good one but the vendors may have that covered - TSO's may help as well.
As for EXP from the factory that would have never been possible even before the rewrite of the EXP rules.
OMSIV
you are 100,000,000 correct when you say that we shoulkd be careful who we believe.
I for one will never forget Fred's claims to know exactly that EA50 would never be EASA cert.
No fuzz, you are right.
Re: Starship,
"Rockwell Collins has maintained full support for the AMS-850 avionics suite".
Beech Starship
dude, these planes were all destroyed a few years ago... by the OEM, due to insupportability issues. ANd, this was a huge OEM - so, you are saying the EA50 is allbutgone?
"However, the amount of disagreement between different "no-owner" bloggers is almost astounding."
and so, as of late, is the difference between owners, in and of themselves.
a production line that has demonstrated 1/day capability?
So we are back to that again. Baron said to ignore the high volume talk and as such I was willing to go along with that, but if you're back to saying such a [money losing] capability is a reason to buy Eclipse, I'm perfectly willing to talk about production volume and how even if (big if) Eclipse could be profitable with just ABQ, there's the whole issue of having the second Russian factory affect on the bottom line by drawing away production volume from ABQ.
Hi CWMOR,
I agree with your post, but would like to add two points:
Re: Mu-2:
"Over 750 MU-2 aircraft were sold."
(Note: that is "sold", not "sold-NG")
Mitsubishi MU-2
Re: Starship:
"Rockwell Collins has maintained full support for the AMS-850 avionics suite".
Beech Starship
Eclipse: critical mass (~260) or critical miss (Avio) ??
"no real comments on the current escapades of RP?"
ATM,
I gave up following all this months ago when it became obvious that EAC was going down the chute, probably never to return. It just doesnt matter anymore (to me). It is inconceivable to me that anyone with any critical thinking skills would consider purchasing this acft either new or used going forward. The smell will linger for decades. Makes Jim Bede look like an amateur.
Ken, we do know that RP himself (in the email he addressed to the employees and signed) stated that there are problems/delays in securing the funds to close the sale.
So, obviously he doesn't have access to the money to complete the transaction.
I think it is equally obvious that he had commitments/MOUs/LOIs what have you to get the money.
The question is how close he is to getting it, how soon it can happen or is it hopeless.
I think none of us here knows the answer to that question. Or if anyone does can not post.
Next clue is only going to be when he closes and/or next court hearing.
Till then, it is all speculation (informed, uninformed, mixed).
I hope he gets the money. Gets the SBs for the upgrades developed and tested. Starts upgrading the fleet, starts completing the planes in production, starts the production line flowing again in 5-6 months for new builds.
If that happens, most likely Ejet will run out of money again by this time next year, but it will be a much more certain future for the fleet that if the deal died now for lack of funding.
So, keep your fingers crossed. I will too.
ATM,
"Almost all of the recalled Starships have been ground up and incinerated".
"So, you are saying the EA50 is allbutgone?"
Uh, why, no. I would never suggest there is any future use for the now cooling incinerators in ABQ...
.)
dave,
back off this - anyone who is making this argument is dumb as a rock at this point...
better to explaore how one can make money selling 50-100 planes a year at a few hndred grand less than a Mustang or a Million more than the SEJs...
There are only so many pot committed "early adopters" and as CW points out, there have been very few fresh sales in years...
All this despite Millions in sales and marketing, and they had a going concern business.
All that's gone.
I am intrigued by some comments here that folks ar e ponying up good after bad money to end up with an orphan EA50... to the tune of $2.5M plus...
How many of these clowns are there?
I guess more than I thought.
ATM I am saying if Eclipse 'survives' in any form beyond the end of March or so, if RiP comes up with the cash to close on the 363, then they will all go in the ashbin of history.
My bet is the only possibility of ongoing support is for the 363 to collapse.
Sure, there were only 30 or so Starships in the wild but Beech decided the costs/risk to support the fleet were too high and elected to buy them all (save 3 I think who refused to sell at any price) remove the parts that worth money (seats, avionics, engines, props, etc.) and chop them into big pieces of composite sculpture.
The Starship was a fascinating design and it taught the industry AND more importantly the FAA a lot about composite design, fabrication, maintenance and certification - Blue was a visionary in that regard (and now at Spectrum), but rumor has it Beech burned as much as $500M to build a reported 50 planes (itself rumored to have been maybe 35).
If the number were around 50 for $500M, and we take 250 Eclipsii and $3B, we get a new champ.
I am all for visionaries, and I love new designs, in fact I understand the dream nature of what Eclipse promised, the issue was always in the execution and that was due to leadership.
BEG - I am not sure that 260 IS critical mass, even with committed customers.
With the exception of the Starship and the growing number of Piaggio P180's, it seems that in the smaller GA category critical mass is closer to 1000 units in the field, AND that was with TSO'd equipment, not proprietary avionics.
This is a critical point in time in the history of this debacle for sure.
cw,
I have zero issues with anything you are posting
Thanks ATM - just calling it like I sees it.
If you want an example of what might happen if there is continuing talk of production consider the Tiger line.
American General was in and out of production several times after the plane was brought back into production.
The Tiger is a great little plane, but the low production rate and lack of other products to help (like Cessna, Mooney, Beech and Piper had) meant it was always chronically underfunded.
And for extra credit, who designed the seminal aircraft from which the Tiger came?
Hi CWMOR,
I'm not sure if 260 is sufficient critical mass either- I'd say 200 is below critical mass for independent aftermarket support, and 400 is sufficient. But 260-300 is in the zone of ambiguity.
CWMOR,
Ooh- ooh, let there be no ambiguity about the "father" of the AA-5 line:
Jim Bede
(aka Mr. BD-5, and a bunch of other BD-xx products. And, by the way- I spoke with him last year, still in business. (No BD-5 in the lineup though!
(...Wonder if he would consider taking over Eclipse?...)
And, regarding "disruptive" manufacturing, it used bonded aluminum.
And had structural maintenance issues for the first 10 years.
----------------------------------
Jim Bede
Grumman AA-5
BedeCorp
---------------------------------
Low and slow (and CHEAP) guys like me are looking at the perenial BD-4C for local area transportation. I don't think it comes with a radar altimeter, but then it doesn't use a cork for a fuel gage either (ala ERcoupe)...
BD-4C
Well done BEG!
The usual award.
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