Thursday, December 4, 2008

Time to reflect

UPDATED SUNDAY 7th December 00.23 GMT

Eclipse Refunds: For The Ten-Percent Deposit Holders

To anyone who placed a 10 percent deposit on an Eclipse 500, and timely elected to receive a refund in response to Eclipse Aviation Corp.’s June 6, 2008 letter, yet never received a refund before the company declared bankruptcy on Nov. 25, 2008: On Tuesday, Dec. 9, 2008, the court overseeing Eclipse’s bankruptcy will consider motions to appoint an “Official Committee of Refund Deposit Holders.” Deposit holders Bill Hewitt, Bradley Investments Inc. and Don Buttrum, all of whom timely elected but never received refunds, with assistance from the law firm Gordon & Rees LLP, will seek the appointment of a committee to represent those individuals/entities that placed a 10 percent deposit.

It’s the ad hoc committee's opinion: individuals or entities that placed a 10 percent deposit on an Eclipse 500 have different legal rights and remedies, separately from the other creditors and deposit holders. An independent committee made up of representatives from those who placed a 10 percent deposit should be created to ensure that those interests are protected. If you're an individual or an entity that placed a 10 percent deposit but didn’t receive the requested refund, e-mail Timothy McCulloch
tmcculloch@gordonrees.com for additional information.


December 2008
will be a pivotal month in the history of Eclipse Aviation. The recent past has seen a radical decline in deliveries, with only two FPJ's finding victims, sorry, customers in November. Clearly the Chapter 11 declaration at the end of last month was a long predicted outcome and is clearly designed by the BoD to shed the onerous parts of the business at the lowest possible cost. Another Airworthiness Directive comes into effect on the fourth of this month and a string of suppliers are in serious trouble having relied on now worthless promises of payment. The good people of New Mexico are down $19 million, and the rest of the original investors have been fleeced for in excess of (self confessed) one BILLION dollars. Owners are on record as having paid almost $300 million for product that can only be worth a third of that. Depositors are in the hole for sums between $150,000 and $1,000,000 each and former employees have been cut off with no recourse. The list goes on, but life is too short....

So let's tally the 'good vibes'
It's possible that Roel Peipers' plan might work, leading to a  restart of production in ABQ in the early part of 2009. But only IF his plans get past the bankruptcy judge AND the key suppliers stay on board. He also needs to prove there are enough orders at what will clearly need to be an even higher list price and finally, he has to avoid someone else putting in a spoiler bid. It's possible that one of the existing vendors might do a 'Beech Starship' and simply close the whole show down in an effort to avoid future liabilities. And don't forget, Wedge is lurking. If he won the bidding auction in January this would surely destroy whatever remains of the 'goodwill' stakeholders still have in the project.

There are still a group of depositors who are 'pot committed' and will hang in for anything that they can get. Remember, some of these guys have been waiting for up to 8 years, so what's another couple of months? Likewise the owners who've already got one (or more) and know that the possibility of selling on is negligible until the situation is clearer. These two groups have slightly different agenda's but are likely to continue passive support, as long as it's not costing them more money.

Speaking of money, those of you owners who've not paid your CPI or Jet Complete yet are in for a rude shock. While Chapter 11's principle purpose is to protect a company from it's creditors, those who owe it money are in for the cattle prod treatment until they stump up what's been invoiced. Better hire good lawyers, boys and girls. OK, so this is not 'good news' for those owners affected, but it's positive for the company.

First, an appeal
It appears that there is a willingness to support the depositor/owner group from within the blog. While I laud this sentiment, I would remind ALL of you that one man stood up for this blog when we were threatened by EAC in April of this year. I should also remind you that an EAC employee who's only failing was to speak the truth was also picked on by Wedge at the same time. I speak of course of Brian Skupa. If anyone wishes to make a contribution to any of the above causes, please route it though Gunner
a.k.a.
Rich Lucibella
Publisher
SWAT Magazine
5011 N. Ocean Blvd
Suite 5
Ocean Ridge, FL 33435
Tel: 800.665.7928 Ext 704
Tel/Fax: 561.337.1551

This gentleman has demonstrated with his own hard earned cash, an excellent lawyer (thanks again, Norman) and the belief in doing the right thing, that he can be trusted to distribute any monies in an appropriate manner.

Update for creditors
Second is the unsecured creditors meeting but you better get a move on. It's on Monday next, December 8, 2008 @ 11:00 a.m. in Room 5209 of the J. Caleb Boggs Federal Building on 844 King Street, Wilmington, Delaware 19801. Remember, if you're not in, you can't win, so get yourself represented if you can't make it in person. I'm quite sure that comments posted will keep us up to date with 'progress'.

The latest AD
We know the AD for the 'carbon build up' issue (effective 4th December 2008) limits the FPJ to FL370, even with both engines running. What people should really be aware of is the limits imposed by the AFM for 'One Engine Inoperative - Service Ceiling'. Since the problem which the AD is addressing is exactly that situation, I thought it valid to share with you the relevant data from the FPJ's AFM. At ISA -20C, with 5, 760lbs on board, the service ceiling is 23,250' on one engine. Better be carful in warmer spots, as at ISA +20C you're only good to 7,750'. At those sort of FL's you're in traffic and lots of weather. Where's the fun in that?

Ex employees of the company
There are a number of ex employees who've been left as unsecured creditors, a few of whom have contacted the blog email seeking like minded people. If you are in this position and want to make contact with others, one of those affected has set up the following email address, execlipser@gmail.com as a 'rally point'. Please use it to get together, as we know from our experiences here that acting in unison works better than individual responses. Ask the Wedge, who must still be regretting suing the blog.

An eBay auction
FPJ owners are trying anything to raise a few dollars on the back of their purchase. How about bidding for a ride in a FPJ.? Be careful about this, you might win...

The 'mythical' s/n 266
On the 26th of July 2008, an 'Experimental CoA' was issued to EAC for this aircraft. This was well out of sequence. For example, the 'last' FPJ (delivered on the 21st of November) was s/n 259 and that only appeared on the FAA database for the first time on the 18th of August. The importance attached to '266' is twofold. First, it's been used by EAC to show off the 'final' configuration to customers and suppliers in a effort to drum up support. Second, as the self declared first 'completed' aircraft it was going to be the benchmark for all upgrades as well as the reference configuration for all future production. What will happen to this orphan now? Will it be dumbed down to lower people's expectations, or simply vanish in the fog of war created by Chapter 11? I suspect we will be 'surprised' by it's departure to 'Russia' in the near future...

A personal observation
Clearly, I could go on. And on, and on. But I won't. Last week we saw reaction from suppliers, customers, staff and the owner/depositor to the main event, and the subsequent debate on the blog. As predicted, once cash ran out, the merry go round came to a screeching halt. Smaller suppliers are in a bad way, staff are in a no win position, depositors have been formally notified of their losses and owners have a aircraft worth a lot less than they thought, with an uncertain future looming for all. Events this month will determine if the proposed bail out stands up to scrutiny. I hope that everyone 'escapes' from this mess with the best outcome possible.

And finally (for this post)
On Tuesday 11th April 2006, Stan Blankenship started this off with a comprehensive post detailing the obvious flaws in the 'story' being sold by EAC. You can review it here, but for me, one key line stands out:-

"The obvious conclusion is that this program can only pay off with delivery rates unprecedented in the industry."

How true that statement turned out to be. Indeed it will still apply to EAC V 2.0, if that gets going next year. One thing is pretty certain though. Whatever happens, this blog will continue to keep a close eye on things, and will probably be accurate in predicting the final outcome.

Shane

431 comments:

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Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

airtaxi :

you are right one hundred per cent !
if some money came as rights-fees , there are sole property of EAC ...!
that sound a little bit too much like in the recent past with RP ...

"The money has arrived..."
"The deal is done ..."

where obviously it is NOT up to his liking ...
so now to keep in the same fashion , he is presenting things and facts as ALREADY a part of Etrick ...when it is only a future potential event ....

Not so fast RP ... , Bk first , you as Etrick ... after ! in that order ...

Dave :

Why the Russians would pay some rights ? (usually you pay for WORKING business plan , is EAC any success ?)

Why do they NEED RP for ?(when he started to tout Mega-orders like Vern being in Wedge-Mode, he has lost any kind of credibility ... credibility he HAS to HAVE to get what he wants ...)

WHY not BUYING straight from BK ?
(Russians are no-angels , they have lots of sharp lawyers , how about them missing that in any case if they want the product they have 2 choices :

1°) Pay a lot to RP ...
or
2°) Pay 1$ (one) more at auction , and get rid of the previous , so competent , management ...

which one would you choose ? no need to be extra-clever ...!

if you consider that the DIP money is 12 Millions $
(to me sounds amazing ... 12M$ for a little over a month ? do they still have thousands of workers ? [screwed in BK ,BTW , so no pay !] to produce WHAT ? A: Just Nothing ...)

which have to be repaid (???) i would be VERY interested to see on WHAT this money has been spent ...

to me it sounds like BS , stunts , more BS ...

like lots of guys doing this kind of things ....
last an other day after death ...no one knows if some kind of miracle is not going to appear !!!

pathetic!

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

You know Roel gets this Russian money commited to him and his plans to makes E500s in Russia. From a guy who McCain said he looked in the eyes and saw three letters K.G.B.... (Putin)

Fast forward to the end scene from Training Day where Denzel had no money to pay the Russians back. And a beautiful European looking women pulls up to him in an SUV, meanwhile another car was pulling up with automatic weapons and they made swiss cheese out of Denzel's car, and him for that matter.

I wonder if this will be the scene for Roel a few months down the road if Eclipse goes tango uniform?

This is said in jest and I don't actually believe it will actually happen. But if it did I would laugh.

fred said...

Monsieur Gunner ...

Proud we are to have you back !

I personally hope to have the honor of meeting you , one day ...

we owe more than money , more than words !

Baron95 said...

airtaximan said...

If the money is coming from the Russian deal, and RP was running EAC when it was arranged, and my impression is, it was financng for some rights... this money in fact belongs to EAC.

I would love to see this issue in front of a judge:


AT, that is exactly the point. You will NOT see it and RP is playing it close to the vest. He is basically not telling anyone what will happen post Ch 11 363 asset sale.

He doesn't have to and won't. There will be no opportunity for court review. This is a take it or leave it. The only way to change that is for a competing offer to materialize.

So you guys can expect the OK Corral showdown all you want, but be ready for a long (as in indefinite) wait.

Once RP gets the assets he can do anything he wants to and does not have to tell a soul. It will be a private company owning some Ch 11 discharged assets.

Baron95 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

E.P.omsiv :

NO , Russians have something more funny , they call it "White Death"

you are simply sentenced to serve XX months in Jail ...
Where it starts to be funny is WHERE is the Prison ...

Nice spot like Oymiakon (Yakoutia) , today it was quite "good" weather as the Temp° was "Only" -37C° (-34,6F°)

i met once a guy from that area ...
he told me that for each month of winter , you grow a full year older ....!

Baron95 said...

And Oil is at $43, gasoline (for the AMG)is at $1.75, the Dow is about to go above 9,000, Embraer is days away from getting their Phenom 100 TC from the Brazilians (so I hear), looks like the Detroit-3 will live to die another day, Obama will put everyone back to work fixing potholes,...

How wonderful.

Baron95 said...

i met once a guy from that area ...
he told me that for each month of winter , you grow a full year older ....!

Yes, but is not because of the temperature. It is all the cheap Vodka they drink to keep "warm".

fred said...

yes , baron ...

#The only way to change that is for a competing offer to materialize. #

that the reason of all the stunts and "offers" from RP ...

only to weed-out any potential bider ...

Other Offer means : Having a look in the Book , that could be more problematic for the Merry-Band ...!

fred said...

baron , when it is that cold ...if you drink alcohol ... you are just dead !

alcohol and freezing Temp° are 2 things not going on together ...!

as you will loose your body heat only much faster ...

Dave said...

He doesn't have to and won't. There will be no opportunity for court review. This is a take it or leave it. The only way to change that is for a competing offer to materialize.
So you guys can expect the OK Corral showdown all you want, but be ready for a long (as in indefinite) wait.


I wouldn't say that I expect one, but I wouldn't say that one couldn't happen either. Most anything can be challenged if one is willing to spend the money on it. I don't know what the owners/depositors already have as far as evidence goes, but I wouldn't hold it outside the realm of possibility that something could happen.

airtaximan said...

DAve,

I think Roel double dealt the Russian financing money - he should have applie dit directly to EAC, but he knew this money would slip through HIS fingers and end up in the hands of owners, suppliers and the like.

He only will take the Russian money earmarked for EAC WHEN he can use it the way he wants.

This my friend WILL probably be obvious to everyone soon.

The timing of the announcements of the financing was remarkable - showing that either:
1-EAC GOT the money, really from the Rusians, and ROel is witholding the money

or

2- he lied and they did not get the money


so?

this is a big mess, and sooner or later Roel will be acountable for screwing the owners, depositors and suppliers... becasue either he has the money and di not fork it over, or he does not have the money and lied about it.

If he has the money, and its Russian money, he obtained it while at the helm of EAC - so its EAC's money.

He cannot buy EAC with EAC's money: no judge will let this happen.

Dave said...

this is a big mess, and sooner or later Roel will be acountable for screwing the owners, depositors and suppliers... becasue either he has the money and di not fork it over, or he does not have the money and lied about it.

Whether this is in the Court of Law or Court of Public Opinion, I think it is time that Roel got what is coming to him. I think he's been involved in fraud before, but because he was a director instead of an executive, he was able to claim ignorance, but now he's the double CEO. I think more and more will come out about Roel with his past and current actions. It might not have effect in a court of law, but it will have an effect.

airtaximan said...

"So you guys can expect the OK Corral showdown all you want, but be ready for a long (as in indefinite) wait."

I do not think this is the case - too easy to shaft everyone - not really what I am accustomed to seeing under these circumstances, but YES, exactly what Pieper wants everyone to think.

He is finling objections now... and soon, we may have some hearings on the issues - the $20M DIP financing might have to go a lont lnger than a month or two.. this alone will create consternation.

I am beginning to get the sense that RP cannot even stand the scrutiny of a few cout hearings, and THIS alone makes me wonder "why not?"..

I think the guy is paying Russian roulette, here.. and few properly phrased questions and he's toast!

So, let the games begin... make noise, and find out what kind of screwing you are really in for.

airtaximan said...

another "fuinny" aspect to this mess...

IF no one else bids, he's screwed.. this would mean no creditor group gives a rats ass anymore...

No suppliers,
no owners,
no depositors...

they all basically just don't care about EAC any more.

IF they did, i would be fairly simple to cobble together an offer and an objection to the self dealing.

Without the suppliers and customers... what does PR & Co. have?

Nothing.

Dave said...

There's been all sorts of filings today including the first adversary action. Most interestingly is the limited objection to the 363 sale filed by Aeolus Aircraft Holdings. They state that their aircraft was in the process of being built at the factory and as such it shouldn't be part of the bankruptcy estate, but rather if Roel buys the assets, he'll have to complete the aircraft for them rather than being able sell it to someone else after having taken their deposits.

Shane Price said...

Anyone heard where Peg Billson went to?

eclipsecriticng@gmail.com

I have, as they say, a reason for asking.

Shane

Dave said...

I just read the adversary action and Roel is such a thief! This has to do with S/N 260, which was fully paid for and all the paperwork was turned over to the owner, but Eclipse stopped the owners on the runway and took their new plane from them and haven't turned it over since then. Frankly, I'm wondering if this would be something where a local police report could be filed and get the property that way.

Dave said...

Anyone heard where Peg Billson went to?

I email you what I found

airtaximan said...

Dave,
Interesting approach... I am sure the raw inventory actually belongs to someone based on their deposit for an aircraft.

"Your honor, THAT'S MY seat, right there!!!"

amazing

Baron95 said...

Dave said... Eclipse stopped the owners on the runway and took their new plane from them

Wow. If that were so, these guys should get the stupid blog award.

Come-on. You have the paperwork in your hand, the plane is in position or going down the runway, here comes EAC, which everyone knows is going TU, and stops you and you give them the plane back?!!!!

I'd like to have seen that one.

Of course, the other, much more plausible explanation, is that no such thing happened.

julius said...

The biggest surprise is the fact,
the the exec team still exists - apart from three members.
What is MM saying when asked what he did in the time before the 363?
"I was responsible for our victims: I had to look for no-support, no-sales, no-training,
no-information..."
Wedge/RP made some interesting contracts...
They are just RP's theater for the EASA cert - real expensive in times of cash conservation mode...

I am not sure if the judge might insist in some details about the 160M$-notes. Perhaps RP will have to improve his stalking horse...

RP will teach the GA how to make a 363 ... wihout a stall?

Julius

Baron95 said...

In case people want to see the faces, here is Vern explaining to Peg how she can cut 4 months out of the EASA schedule.

P.S. We know for a fact that Peg is a good person, because she drinks Diet Coke, as opposed to Vern who is a Coffee or Tea drinker, which is, as we know Evil.

Dave said...

Of course, the other, much more plausible explanation, is that no such thing happened.

"On November 25, 2008 prior to 9:25 AM, Eclipse signed and delivered to Mr Taylor a Form of Certificate of Final Acceptance of the Airplane and a Form of Certificate of Technical Acceptance.

...On November 25, 2008 prior to 9:25 AM, 100 PM cause its agent, Merrill Lynch, to wire the final payment of $477,721.47 to Eclipse's bank account at Wells Fargo Bank, N.A.

On November 25, 2008 prior to 9:25 AM, following the delivery of the bill of sale to 100 PM and the wiring of money to Eclipse, David Crettol, an employee of Eclipse, handed the keys to the Airplane to Messrs Taylor and Good. Under threat of force by Eclipse's security, Messrs Taylor and Good were stopped before they could begin taxiing the Airplane for take off.

No later than 9:24 AM on November 25, 2008, title to the airplane passed to 100 PM, free and clear of all rights of Eclipse and accordindly all claims, liens or ecumbrances by any of its secured creditors.

Eclipse filed for bankruptcy in the Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware on November 25, 2008 at 9:25 AM.

The Plaintiffs have made repeated demand that Eclipse turn over the Airplane to 100 PM."

bill e. goat said...

Hi B95,

Saaaaay- did you notice Peg's right hand, the one by Wedge's coffee mug, is closed, and seems to be clutching something?

Maybe "nice pills" for Wedge?

(Nah, that would take the entire bottle- maybe...something else ? ? ?)

(We can be sure it wasn't a smart pill though... :)

bill e. goat said...

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the blow-by-blow.

(I imagine it about came to that- and probably would have if the 100 PM guys had known what was a few ticks of the clock away).

That REALLY is pretty, well, I can't quite think of a proper description.

Makes me wonder how this one's going to be "spun"... Sure looks like they will get their airplane with if they had a copy of the paperwork.

(Maybe there is some legal fine print about "effective at noon", etc.)

Baron95 said...

BEG, if we are going to psychoanalyze the photo, how about the fact that Vern is an IT industry guy, but has a ton of paper a ruler and a calculator on his desk, yet, his PC's windows Vista Desktop is blank, as in not a single application running.

Maybe that was the issue with Eclipse. Vern never learned to use Microsoft Excel. Could that explain how they "misplaced" $2B?

Baron95 said...

Dave, I love these stories with a gap on the important part.

So at some time (what time?) someone hands over the keys. At some other time (what time), someone is stopped from taxing away.

What happened in the mean time? I mean they got to the plane, packed their bags, closed the door, started the engines?

Either way, if they had possession (plane, keys and paperwork), it is totally silly to turn the plane back to Eclipse.

And "under threat of force". Come on!!! A simple cellphone call to 911 or airport police would have cleared it all out and land Eclipse security in jail IF the story is true as told.

Dave said...

Makes me wonder how this one's going to be "spun"... Sure looks like they will get their airplane with if they had a copy of the paperwork.

Given the unique nature of their predicament, I think they wouldn't even need to get a declaratory judgment from the BK courts to get their property. I'd think they could resolve this by showing paperwork that you own it to the police and filing a stolen property report. I don't think someone for instance could steal a car and then declare BK and make the car's owner go through BK court to get back their own property.

Dave said...

Dave, I love these stories with a gap on the important part.

I had thought the important part was the wiring of the money that morning and the final exchange of paperwork, which should be a pretty black-and-white issue in either those wire transfers happened that day per bank records or not and the same goes for the document exchange.

And "under threat of force". Come on!!!

From a legal standpoint I don't think it is that relevant other than if the intent was to show fraud in obtaining the final $478K payment that day. It doesn't have bearing as to whether Eclipse has a legal claim to the aircraft or not.

A simple cellphone call to 911 or airport police would have cleared it all out and land Eclipse security in jail IF the story is true as told.

I think that could still be done now whether there was a threat of force or not. The pen is mighter than the sword and if there are the documents and transfers as described, the actual nitty-gritty of the events that day don't matter that much.

Dave said...

Lots of customer motions to form committees to be addressed at the hearing tomorrow.

Dave said...

DayJet has filed a Limited Objection to the 363 sale and the US Trustee for Eclipse case has filed an Objection. I haven't read either of them yet...

Baron95 said...

Where the heck am I supposed to put the pitot/static thingy?

Baron95 said...

You are totally missing the point Dave. Possession is 9.9/10th of the law.

These guys had it. And they gave it back. How dumb can that be? I'd be calling police on the spot. And I'd love for anyone from Eclipse to try to touch me. Boy, that would make my day ;)

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Baron you are missing the point, as as has been said before, the 'Owners' have battered wife syndrome.

This is truly nasty behavior, can't wait to see what happens with all the meetings and filings - gonna be fun.

I'll bring the popcorn.

Dave said...

My mistake regarding the Trustee Objection. It was to forming the Customer Committee. As of right now there hasn't been a Trustee Objection to the 363 sale.

Baron95 said...

I agree CW. But still, that is a bit too much. Why haven't they filed criminal charges even if after the fact. That is actually a federal crime, to accept money via wire transfer as payment for goods and failing to delivering them.

I tell you, a couple of well placed criminal actions from owners/depositors (remember corporations don't go to jail, officers do), could have helped Eclipse behave bette.

[incidentally, I believe there were prob pilots hired for acceptance and delivery, not the actual owners]

But sti

Black Tulip said...

baron95,

The caption of the photo should be:

"I coulda been a contender"

(Spoken by the aircraft, not the technician.)

Baron95 said...

Dave what was the basis for the objection?

While it is true that a single creditors committee is better and simpler for the trustee, there is precedence for a large group of individuals/entities forming a class.

Sounds like the Trustee want to keep things simple and moving.

Anonymous said...

US Trustee seats Unsecured Creditors Committee this afternoon at the Federal Courthouse. Legal counsel and financial advisor selected. Mix of trade vendors and customers. No one representing E5C or 60/10 depositors was there. They will petition for separate committees tomorrow. Reportedly Mark Borderh (CFO) and Bruce Castle (General Counsel) rep'ed Ecorpse/ETIRC.

Moses said...

The caption reads:

At 3 PM GMT, all current and former Eclipse employees must kneel in the direction of Wedge (per the last known Flight Aware postion) and chant the Eclipse mumble.

Dave said...

While it is true that a single creditors committee is better and simpler for the trustee, there is precedence for a large group of individuals/entities forming a class.

With the committee formed by the trustee 3 of the 7 members are customers. The trustee also says that much is unknown and as more details emerge, the trustee might support other committees being formed when the trustee has more info.

Dave said...

I agree CW. But still, that is a bit too much. Why haven't they filed criminal charges even if after the fact. That is actually a federal crime, to accept money via wire transfer as payment for goods and failing to delivering them.

Yes, I don't think s/n 260 is a BK court issue.

I tell you, a couple of well placed criminal actions from owners/depositors (remember corporations don't go to jail, officers do), could have helped Eclipse behave better.

This is the only one that I see as clear-cut. Either there was the final wire transfer or there wasn't, but yeah, I think they should pursue criminal action for this irrespective of if there was a threat of force or not.

Rich Lucibella said...

Baron states:
"You are totally missing the point Dave. Possession is 9.9/10th of the law.

These guys had it. And they gave it back. How dumb can that be?"


Your thinly veiled implication is that the owners had it coming for being "stoopid" and, by extension, Eclipse is to be...what? Respected?

It doesn't matter that YOU might call that confrontation with security a "target rich environment". I'll stick with the "facts" as YOU seem to claim them.

They bought the plane.
They paid for the plane.
They received title to the plane.
The plane was taken from them.

Fair enough.

Now, please. Lighten up on the personal bravado. you're frightening the children. ;-)
Gunner

Shane Price said...

Gunner,

Now, please. Lighten up on the personal bravado. you're frightening the children. ;-)

I thought I was the only child around here.

Are there others?

Shane

Shane Price said...

SNIPPET TIME

Seems there are more 'refund requests' than I had initially calculated, especially on the ConJet.

On the FPJ itself, it appears that there were a number of people who paid 60% money during this summer. These people say they did not 'pass go' (the 10% deposit) but joined the queue at the progress payment level. I'm working to find out how this worked, exactly, and will report in more detail.

Shane

Baron95 said...

Gunner,

Nothing I said is/was to excuse any of Eclipse's behavior. Still, when you are amongst people known and proven to take people's money and not delivering the goods (completed planes) or their rightful refunds, you are forewarned to act appropriately.

Either there is more to this story (like the other side) OR these individuals acted against their own rights and self interest.

You go to a used car dealership with a known reputation for swindling customers (why you did that in the first place is already questionable) to buy that used $1M McLaren, you hand over the check for the balance, the guy hands over the keys, the signed title and temp tags, you get to your car on which is parked on the street (outside their property), you are about to drive off, and they get in front of the car and demand that you hand back the key and the car. What do you do?

I'd lock the car and dial 911. If they threatened me or attempted to inflict any harm on me I'd take appropriate action (evasive preferably, but appropriate as needed).

It is only bravado if you don't mean it.

What would you do?

Anonymous said...

RAISE THE DRAWBRIDGE, the peasants are revolting!


Ya know all those funny little white things that used to just sit at KABQ, and collect mold? We called them mushrooms, but some call them VLJs.

They’re all gone!

From a high of 52, visible to me last August, their numbers SLOWLY declined. But, after the BK filing, all the ones parked out on the ramp have been pulled inside, and are kept behind locked doors.

I guess any manufacturer with thoughts of retrieving the wings, tail, or engines, they never got paid for, needs to hire a few professional “retrieval experts”. Same for the owners who paid for their plane, can see it through the window, but cannot collect it. Same for anyone thinking of using a mechanic’s lien seize a few rudders. I can provide intelligence information to legitimate retrieval agencies, for a small fee, and if Tom Cruise plays me in the movie.

As far as the KABQ cops doing anything to help that owner who lost his aircraft...


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...


Oh man, that was toooooo funny.

I’ve been on this airport for a looooong time. And I’ve called the ops center for police response several times. With one exception, the incidents were long over before the boys in blue arrived. We learned to handle these situations ourselves, using radio/phone codewords and common objects for weapons.

I’ve met a few good officers, but I’ve also met guys that are Barney Fife clones, and are a real hazard to those around them, especially taxiing aircraft. Common perception is that the airport police dept is a dumping ground for cops that couldn’t hack regular police work.

I believe they would have helped the EAC security guards, not the pilots.

It’s real easy to retrieve a taxiing aircraft. I’ve done it several times. Just call ground control and report the aircraft appears to have a problem. Or, wave excitedly at the pilots, they’ll quickly return to the hangar. Few pilots want to fly an aircraft that may have a serious mechanical malfunction. Then, tell the pilots there’s a problem with the aircraft or paperwork, but will just take a few minutes to fix. Hook a tug to the aircraft, and don’t let go.

PawnShop said...

RAISE THE DRAWBRIDGE, the peasants are revolting!

I, myself, am ruggedly handsome - and as such, take exception to that characterization ( Though I'm not sure peasant is quite the right phrase. Aviation's ghetto - as it were - is still a mighty nice neighborhood ).

Would you like some Grey Poupon?
DI

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Back to the Mooney said...

EA says that there are 25 or so 400 depositors that requested a refund and didn't receive it and another 90+ that didn't request a refund prior to the filing.

Looks like some 500 guys are organizing but I haven't seen much on the 400 depositors. Anyone out there?

Baron95 said...

ExperiencedAviationProfessional said...Few pilots want to fly an aircraft that may have a serious mechanical malfunction.

Fair enough - taxi to the FBO on the other side of the field and sort it out there.

You could say it is easier with hind sight, and there maybe some truth to that, BUT, in the case of Eclipse, the owner should be on notice that:

1 - Make sure all is 100% done and ready for flight. Get it all ready.

2 - Wire the money.

3 - 250 ms later (human panic response time), grab the docs, the keys and RUN.

4 - Get in the plane and get out of Dodge. If anything weird happens, go to a nearby FBO and sort it out.

5 - Also, not entirely, unreasonable to be "prepared".

Baron95 said...

Cirrus Snubs EASA Over Vision Jet Certification Fees
08-Dec-2008

Cirrus Design chief executive Alan Klapmeier says his company will file an application to certificate the Vision SJ50 single-engine jet with the FAA on December 17, but will not undertake a parallel effort in Europe in the near term.

"We're not filing because we're not paying," Klapmeier said

http://www.charterx.com/resources/industrynews.aspx#3713

Baron95 said...

By increasing the tailpipe cant angle from 6.5° to 12° upward, Cirrus has reduced the side-stick controller forces by 67% to hold the nose level during worst-case go-around thrust applications, says Van Staagen. The wingspan will remain at 11.7m (38.5ft), although engineers experimented with spans as wide as 13.7m.

Maximum cruise speed for the production aircraft will be slower than the 319kt (590km/h) achieved with V1, in part due to the tailpipe cant, but Cirrus promises at least a 300kt top speed and 1,850km (1,000nm) range with reserves. Klapmeier says the five-seat jet, likely to be priced at $1.25 million equipped, could be ready for deliveries in 2011.


Wow!!! A loss of 19 KTS just with the engine cant needed to counteract nose down momentum on go-around.

I can't begin to imagine what the PiperJet will lose given how much higher above the centerline their thrust line is.

But, congrats to Cirrus on 120h of successful prototype flying and data collection and on filing cert papers with the FAA.

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Be prepared...

Gotta love that. Bring personal protection to a aircraft purchase.

Either you bring a weapon to defend yourself with...

OR

You bring a condom to bang the hell out of some female Eclipse employee

OR FOR THAT MATTER...

You kindly offer the condom to one of the Eclipse staff and bend over.

I can see the headlines now..

"Attack on ABQs Eclipse Aviation"

OR

Porno Title

"Anal Eclipse in Albuquerque"

Well it is the West. The Wild Wild West...

Baron95 said...

Again from the above link.... I thought I'd repost a nice one-paragraph summary of the EAC creditors:

The bankruptcy filing includes a list of creditors holding the largest unsecured claims, totaling $702.6 million and including wing-maker Fuji Heavy Industries ($31.8 million), empennage-maker Hampson Aerospace ($31.3 million), engine manufacturer Pratt&Whitney Canada ($30.1 million), UT Finance ($13.5 million), Albany Engineered Composites ($6.9 million), DayJet ($6.2 million), TW Metals ($5.9 million), Chelton Flight Systems ($4.9 million), instrument panel maker Innovative Solutions&Support ($4.3 million) and landing-gear maker Mecaer ($4.3 million). The largest unsecured creditors are King Road Investments with $92.3 million and HBK Master Fund with $84.9 million.

Baron95 said...

Either you bring a weapon to defend yourself with...

OR

You bring a condom to bang the hell out of some female Eclipse employee


Or both. After all, part of the acceptance test should be testing the ability of the environmental control to keep the cabin cool and windows fog-free under heavy human inhale/exhale cycles.

Baron95 said...

I can't believe the idiocy. I actually just read the draft of the Detroit bailout bill and, in fact, it mandates that the automakers sell or terminate lease interests on any corporate planes.

The insanity of it. And the lack of balls of these 3 CEOs!!! In the middle of a crisis, these CEOs lost 17 hours of work each way driving bad cars across half of the country. That to me is absolute grounds for termination.

Lets see, from my last count, the folks at Google have 1 767, 1 757, 2 GVs, 1 Alpha Jet, a deal to share facilities with NASA, god knows what else.

Lets see which company will increase productivity and grow and which one will die a slow and painful death.

Any guess?

PawnShop said...

Looks like Baron's off his meds again:

ExperiencedAviationProfessional said...Few pilots want to fly an aircraft that may have a serious mechanical malfunction.

Fair enough - taxi to the FBO on the other side of the field and sort it out there.


WHY taxi to the FBO on the other side of the field, when the MANUFACTURER of the plane, with whom you have been dealing in good faith, IS RIGHT THERE?

Go to bed, Baron - you're clearly off your nut.

XXXOOO
DI

PawnShop said...

EPOMSIV:

Tasteless.
Inappropriate.
Patently offensive.
And side-splittingly hilarious.
Definitely Top 10 stuff, nice work!

DI

PawnShop said...

it mandates that the automakers sell or terminate lease interests on any corporate planes.

The insanity of it. And the lack of balls of these 3 CEOs!!! In the middle of a crisis, these CEOs lost 17 hours of work each way driving bad cars across half of the country.


It's not as if - based on past performance - that they'd actually have done anything of value with those 17 hours. What's inexcusable - and the real reason that "jet removal" is being mandated - is that to a man, they had no clue what the business justification for having them is in the first place. "Balls" has nothing to do with it.

Ask Eric Schmidt why he's got a small airline, and I'm sure he could tell you.

That's the difference.

DI

Baron95 said...

Sorry DI - it is a testicular wing-span issue. I bet you that if Bob Lutz or Howard Hughes (pre total insanity days) was testifying and they questioned how he got to the hearings, the answer would have been entirely different.

PawnShop said...

I bet you that if Bob Lutz or Howard Hughes (pre total insanity days) was testifying and they questioned how he got to the hearings, the answer would have been entirely different.

Bob Lutz knew - and could therefore communicate - why he traveled by corporate jet - that's the entire point. And Howard Hughes ( who was in his early insanity phase during his hearings ) was in the business of building aircraft ( ONE aircraft, but it was a really magnificent aircraft - er - ground-effect-vehicle ).

Watching those portions of the Big 3 hearing, everybody here on the blog knew the right answers to the questions.

The CEOs didn't. Obviously.

So put your balls back in your boxers - they were clueless as to why the expense would be justified, thus earning themselves the right to travel by airline. ( And come to think of it, I love 17 hour drives, when you get right down to it. )

DI

Dave said...

The insanity of it. And the lack of balls of these 3 CEOs!!! In the middle of a crisis, these CEOs lost 17 hours of work each way driving bad cars across half of the country. That to me is absolute grounds for termination.

You always speak about "mission" and the car was the right thing to use to accomplish the mission of getting billions of dollars in bailout money. Focusing on the 17 hours but not on the $15 billion is pennywise and pound foolish...they time isn't worth nearly a billion dollars an hour! These guys previously got pilloried for flying large corporate jets and so those jets helped cause them to fail in their mission the first time around.

Lets see, from my last count, the folks at Google have 1 767, 1 757, 2 GVs, 1 Alpha Jet, a deal to share facilities with NASA, god knows what else.

Google isn't asking for a taxpayer bailout.

Dave said...

Watching those portions of the Big 3 hearing, everybody here on the blog knew the right answers to the questions.
The CEOs didn't. Obviously.


I didn't watch the hearing, but I don't think they were justified. I think there's strong justification for some type of private aircraft, but it doesn't have to be a relatively large one and for that matter they could have travelled together on the same flight (which that probably would have helped them as my limited impression was that these guys didn't all work together and instead it was everyone for himself).

fred said...

yes , dave ...
you're right !

this alone explain about more than 50% of the current US Economics problems ...

some travel in Jet because their time is precious ,they mostly conduct deals during flight , or have meetings ...

BEFORE anything else they should determine the ratio Cost/Reason as if it is only an Ego trip , it can (Must?) be done on personal expenses ...

i personally believe that one of the first move the US Senate should do is to ask for them being thrown out of CEO position , bared from any stock-option they had and kept in post (without power) while the mess they let happen or provoked is sorted out !

like EAC , it is something of utterly importance than entrepreneur take risks to create jobs and wealth ... but they should never loose sight on the rules permitting them to do so ...

exactly like RP/Wedge , they should never forget that what is the most important is NOT their little person , but their firms has a human richness factor and thru it the customers ...

this is one the main craziness in EAC saga and many others : i have NEVER heard of any business which could be successful , remain this way for some times and screw its customers at the same time ...

they had to "drive" for 17 hours ? how about the ones who are going to live on a dime because they couldn't invent new ways to waste money ?

so instead of driving , i would have advised to line-up all the ones who are going to suffer from those vultures , to invent a new "disruptive" way of traveling :

the butt-kicking thrust !

as fast as travel in Fpj , only a bit more dangerous for the Ego ...;-)

fred said...

Guten Tag , Herr Julius ...

what amaze me in the last developments :

RP , up to now, is having mostly failures on the speedometer ...

failures that was conducted to their death by such a director (with , probably, a fat check) on the ground "I (RP) been hired to try to do something out of this mess , after trying my best (?insert many doubts here !) i am sad to report nothing can be saved as I have been hired only too late , your Honor !"

until now , it was ok or at the most , pretty hot , but never really up to the point of really putting the guy in the dump ... because of this ambiguous position ...

Now the plot is very different : HE is in charge , and can be blamed for ...

so , it doesn't really make sens ... such a clever rules binder being catch at his own game ?

I can foresee only a few outcomes :

RP understood that there is NO WAY OUT ...

either he keeps the "thing" , but what for ? No customers
(and this what is going on , i really doubt any new ones will appear any time soon , there isn't enough Paris Hilton in the world , and even her: she may have the atom of brain it takes to understand this: "No way to get ripped-off!")

more problematic : Suppliers , they may be tempted to write-off previous losses to try to make new deal ... (in the times being , any CEO insane enough for such decision would have to explain it in front of board ! it's a risk/gain gamble with position at stake ... with Fpj history , the risks are higher than potential gains!)
as well as to have to suffer from Image-Deficit for sticking around a firm which has "so graciously screwed all and every one !"

so He CANNOT keep the thing , but at the same time CANNOT really risk to have anyone REALLY looking in the book ...

What could be the best move ?

to weed-out any potential risk-taker (like a group of owners or an other competitor )

to piss-off everybody (explain the sold-retaken plane)

scare any investor (i doubt any one with more than 2 of IQ would take the risk , anyway ...) in inventing a fictitious value of auction ...

it is the story of the 160 Millions $ , in notes (which is even less valuable than the paper used to write it on ...)

like this no one will bid , and/or if someone does it , he will get the DIP money ...

a plain and simple gamble , first find yourself in position you cannot assume , then try to make a profit out of it ...!

the only alternative i can see :

the Russians
+are willing to get the ULWW factory done but , as they quite clearly stated it , no money is to be in control of a non-russian body at any time ...
so he has to grab what can be grab (TC,PC,Certs.) but lawfully ...
so he is bullying everyone into believing it is a done deal ... and for the ones who have some difficulties to give-up , make the 200M$ auction story ...
without clearly explaining that in this sum : 160 are fictitious and 12 to 20 are already is property ! (in that case , i wonder how much would be really paid by Etrick , if it won the bid ...???)

julius said...

Fred,
bonjour!

Anything new from the revolting owners and "deposit holders"!

(I think "to hold" is something with activity!)

RP ran EAC in no operation mode - apart from the cert people - for 5 (five) months....
He was able to block all involontary filings (if there was any) simply by lying... UBS is looking fo new investors...
(Perhaps "lying" is to strong as he said he needed +200M$ and had also said, that his investment resp. ETIRC's of ???$ had saved EAC for BK..!)

Like Thain RP deserves an extra bonus....avoidance a of (bigger) loss!
(One of the words I learnt when I was with a bigger automotive shop!)

Does this 28m$ cash + "160$m"-notes
bid simply mean EAC is a repair shop with some inferior TC activities plus some production potential (descibed by the 160m$-notes)?

The judge will rule out the scope of auction!


Julius

fred said...

Ja , Julius ...

may be one of the reasons why it would be better that no one look in the book ...

let's imagine that a BK judge wouldn't be too impressed by a CEO running a firm in Nothing-but-BS mode ... while the officer(s) are cashing-in (big?)check and doing nothing else than crashing the whole matter ...

Just too many things seems to be completely weird ...
(like the Russian deal : yesterday it was on all mouths , a press-release here soon to be re-reported by an other news-medias citing the first who itself reported from a third media ...!!Today , funnily enough , seems the whole Russkyi-land has been swallowed in a giant earthquake = no more mention of it ...? )

BTW , the Russian Money wasn't supposed to have arrived in November ??!!

and , not the least weird, 28M$ cash offer ...
but is the DIP in this ? if so it would mean ONLY 8 to 16M$ ... ??!!

definitely weirder and weirder ... i wouldn't like to be the BK judge ,even for my own weight of gold ...! ;-))

julius said...

Fred,

gold at about 769 $

what about RP'"reputation" as a fair business man? L&H had been at a similar position (apart from the L&H "sales").
Perhaps RP has already prepared the orderbook - to orders only with deposits!

As the papers will be prepared by Greenhill - or did the company step down because of no money or these "notes" as cash - the judge may only decide that the costs for the stalking horse (just a shell) will be reduced to the real expenses...and the rest is procedure as usual.

Another chapter of American business...

Julius

fred said...

Julius ...

reputation ?

after L&H ?
after Philips ?
after tandy ?
(i am forgetting the minor ones ...)

probably not really spotless ...! ;-)

as for the notes , you got to bear in mind that "financial firms" are charging you for any advice , practice , everything ...

so you see , with the kind like Lehmann and others , one of the things which has always amazed me : they have no responsibility (direct ones) in what they sell you = you make profits : they charge you ; you make losses : they still charge you ...

sometime , they are even stupid enough to believe their own lies and fall themselves in their own lies ...
so much fun in "inventive finances" ;-)

fred said...

about gold , that would put me at some 1.980.000 $ ...

sorry , i think my integrity is worth more than this ...

as for loosing my last remnants of sanity for sorting this mess out ???

i would be tempted to say ; thank you , but no thank you ...! ;-))

stan said...

During the negotiations for the 1979 government bailout of Chrysler ($1.5 billion), Lee Iacocca had meetings scheduled with officials in Washington one particular day.

His limo took him to the Pentastar hangar where he was met by Milt Pugsley, Chrysler's aviation manager.

Milt told Lee,"Mr. Iacocca, the Gulfstream has a mechanical problem but the Learjet (35A)is ready and will get you down to Washington just as fast."

Lee stuck his nose in the air and told Milt, "I don't ride in little airplanes" got back in his limousine and went back to his office.

julius said...

Fred,

unfortunately I am north of your
gold value - I am a pax I wouldn't like when flying...
(I am trying to reduce my gold-value!)

Hopefully the judge will not accept the "160M$"notes....

Julius

Shane Price said...

Stan,

Lee stuck his nose in the air and told Milt, "I don't ride in little airplanes" got back in his limousine and went back to his office.

By that logic, the 'Big 3' should have chartered an A380.

Joke.

Talk about a media banana skin. I almost felt sorry for the PR people who tried to cover them on this.

Regards

Shane

Shane

Deep Blue said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

Julius ...

i was just speaking about integrity ... ;-)

jokes apart , i think that Europeans have a better idea of what they wouldn't do for money ...

flyboymark said...

Any news on the Messor-Taylor event?
(I put away my tactical guns and knives so I could talk about it..)

Deep Blue said...

A comment on RP/AM's financing activities.

B95 may very well be right: we don't have all the details and it would appear irrational to provide such bridge money (but we don't know that for sure either)or make a 363 offer, unless there was the perception that there was a bridge to somewhere (unlike the "bridge to nowhere" in Detroit).

However, bear in mind that all the various, current financial actions generated by RP and AM are very personal (as opposed to institutional) ones; there are apparently no institutions stepping up; it is being done by two individual men; that alone indicates that their actions are strictly limited to recovering/minimizing their own personal positions; they are not, (because they cannot) acting on behalf of a larger EAC "rescue."

Whether you take B95's view, or perhaps more sceptical ones, the overwhelming fact is that two men are trying desperately to recover their personal investment.

That alone is the central and exclusive motivation for whatever actions you may observe.

These are classic behaviors when certain individuals have personal positions in a large-scale venture, get control (ususally unwanted) and are the last ones left at the party: the venture gets torn to shreds and sold "for parts," if anything.

One last comment: these are also times when private bridge financiers will do not only desperate things, but be tempted to undertake utterly deceptive transactions as well, as their desperation increases. They are not able to book a "loss" like an institution (they usually are looking to pass the "time bomb" off to some other group that they feel can, unlike themsleves, "afford" to take the loss).

There are more than a few unfortunate private financiers in high stakes ventures that crossed the line and wound up in BK themsleves, or worse. Often as well, they may actually believe that their investment story or speculative transactions will ultimately pay off for the last buyer, but this is the same delusion as a Ponzi and eventually it ends, often with a Trustee trying to sort things out while the original venture, its value and potential, are irreversibly lost.

fred said...

oh , yes ... DB !

i am still wondering if it is the old classical "hot potato game"
(pass it before getting burnt)

some last seconds expectations ...

or a good old classic "switch and bait" ...

time will tell , i think that for the one not involved , it is URGENT to wait ...!

Dave said...

Hampson has objected to there being a customers committee. I haven't read their filing.

Shane Price said...

Dave,

No supplier will want a customer committee. The more this BK drags on, the longer they wait for their credit insurance to pay up.

I suspect that's why some of them pulled out in the first place. Once the debt breaches the terms set by the credit insurance, the supplier is on their own for the debt.

However, if you follow the rules you get 80% or even 90% of what's outstanding.

What's not to like?

Shane

Beedriver said...

The CEO’s of Ford, GM and Chrysler are doing exactly what we the people of the US want them to.

we should not complain about what they do. we need to change the root drivers in order to change how they act.
The US system is set up to encourage operating an public company so money is made this year and who cares about next year. We the people own and run public companies as stockholders. What do we care about as stock holders? What is the dividend or stock price this year. We do not care if the company even exists 5 years from now. Contrast that to closely held companies owned by one or two major owners, their behavior shows that they understand that if they are going to have money for their kids the company still needs to be doing good in the future. This requires that a closely held company must balance short term gains vs long term gains. This is shown by great companies like Medtronic, Toyota, etc and many small companies that have several hundred employees and do well for generations. . So what can we do to encourage US public owned companies to be good long term stewards for the USA?


Primary Question:: how to prevent short term thinking in public business operation and promote long term growth and good jobs.

Basic idea: have no capital gain tax on assets held 5 years and tax all other shorter term capital gains as regular income.

Essentially stockholders act in their best interest. if it was in the economic interest of stockholders to have the company operate so it was still successful in the far future so the stock prices would be high then the stockholders would compensate the CEO if the company was run well for the future and the stock prices were higher 5 years in the future. This would provide the CEO the same incentive that companies that are owned by private individual's have to run the company so that the owner will have something in the future to retire on or give his kids.

in the present system CEO's are rewarded for this year's results only and thus they do things that increase today's profits, like lay off people and cut R&D and future product development but these actions are not in the long term interest of the health of the company and the jobs of the employees.

A system like this would promote long term growth of companies and especially promote job stability and in addition promote good higher paying jobs. these are things that are needed to make a stable robust economy.

I owned a small business, grew it up to 200 + people and successfully sold it. During the 25 years I owned it I acted in the long term interest of the company so it grew and provided long term job stability for my employees and I then developed an asset for my retirement and my children.

In the present investment tax situation a CEO of a large public company does not suffer if the company has problems as they have already achieved their short term goals and received their bonuses. As a result they do not care what happens to the employees in the future.

airtaximan said...

"Whether you take B95's view, or perhaps more sceptical ones, the overwhelming fact is that two men are trying desperately to recover their personal investment."

smart comment...

what would you do, in this case?

Sell to the Russians... sell the whole shoot'n match to them, and be done with it.

This actually makes more sense than anything I've seen yet - the Russians obtain a product they think has a large market, and RP and AM get out.

The more of this mess they wash away through BK, the more left for them when they sell to the Russians.

Bottom line: why keep producing planes and losing money, and dela with all the headaches, when apparently the Russians desire to do this?

You have the answer.

airtaximan said...

"I have 200 things to get done in a day... I cannot sit in an airport or in a car and get my job done"

PS. ask Al Gore the same question...

Anonymous said...

Hampson is on the official Unsecured Creditor Committee.

While the Judge may buy off on separate committees for owners, 60 percenters, 10 percenters, etc., the US Trustee recommends single UCC.

Each committee gets Counsel and Financial Advisor firms paid by estate. The more separate committees the less net proceeds.

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

airtaxi ...

yes , exactly as you wrote ...

# apparently #


i just wonder if RP has any idea o what a pissed-off Russian is capable of ??? ;-))

fred said...

woaw ...

beedriver !!

you should be in charge !

i think that what has got completely wrong in US in the last few years IS exactly what you stated :

before it was "no man should buy more than he can repay his his own lifetime ..."

then it has been translated into :
"they sweat , we consume..."

then in :
"why give a damn about tomorrow , free beer and free burgers today , bills after ..."

finally translated in :
"what can be better than short-term ? A= shorter-term ...!"

no need to be extra-clever to understand that the wall is closing faster and faster , no one having a clue on the whereabout of the brakes ...

it is not very different of the claim of Unions in France (the real socialists ones) when they ask for the kind of shit they are used to ask for ... ( i always wonder when some smart-ass is going to ask for retirement compulsory at age of 25 and and of studies at 24 ..!!!)

the problem : you had some politicos who lead you to believe it could be true and , no need to worry , for ever ...

there is no needs for this or that , only to let the ones who wants to do good to go ahead ..!

and stop the crap like : every one capable to buy a house has one , how to sell new ones to peoples who cannot afford it ?
sell it to them on credit ....

where the better idea would have been : how could we make those ones to be able to afford it !!!

vova_k said...

Fred, you are creating devil image of Russians... I’m Russian, own and run a business in Russia with USD 100+ M annual turnover. Not an “oligarch” but have some idea about Russian businessmen (and about other Russians). Also, I travel abroad at least 30-40% of my time; half of my friends are from Europe and North America, so I can compare. To be honest, you are picturing Russians like they (we ?) are from bad Hollywood movie made around 1990 – 1995,

fred said...

priviet , vova ...

if you took my message as depicting ONLY the bad side Russia , i can assure you that it is TOTALLY the opposite !
(I think i never made any mystery that it is a country i love for many different reasons... and a country which is 99% different of what 99% whom have never been there believe ! ponimayesh ?;-)) )

i have been working in your country to put it back on prosperity tracks when almost all westerners had nothing but jokes about Russia in the mouth and this for quite a few years ...

so when i see such a mess as this "thing" (i don't want to call it business , it is anything expect a business !) try to lure some others about what Russia IS NOT , izvinitié , my blood start to boil !!

i firmly believe that peoples should know each others , let apart understanding each ...

this way no douraki of this caliber could use one to play against the other ...

which is what i always suspected about EAC going to Russia , never a firm intention ... only a way to squeeze a little more others ...!

Dave said...

Reading the minutes of today's hearing the motion for a Customer Committee was denied, but it looks like there might be a temporary restraining order for s/n 260. It sounds like a hearing on the matter has been granted, if I read the minutes right.

Baron95 said...

Deep Blue said... the overwhelming fact is that two men are trying desperately to recover their personal investment.


DB, I actually agree with you there. I think there is a fair chance that these two guys are displaying the classic traits of personal greed/panic that investors that have their personal money in the game display.

It is possible that they naively believe that by clearing EAC of the liabilities, some external financing will matterialize, but do not have lined up yet. It certainly will give them a cleaned up TC, PC, captive upgrade customers and an operating business for $45M free and clear.

You can't argue with the fact that it will "less hard" to finance it after the clean up then before.

So we'll see.

Dave said...

It is possible that they naively believe that by clearing EAC of the liabilities, some external financing will matterialize, but do not have lined up yet.

Couldn't that get them in a world of hurt if they don't have financing after claiming to have it as well as putting in requirements that other bidders have to demonstrate they have the finances? Roel the seller is saying that financing on part of any other bidder has to be demonstrated, but if Roel the buyer doesn't have financing for his own bid, that would just seem to be asking for it. The APA says that the Russians are financing it along with a spanish company and if that's not true, it would seem that they could find themselves in a lot of trouble. I don't know the law, it just seems that an insider dealing falsely claiming sufficient financing would be a pretty serious matter.

Baron95 said...

Beedriver, you did raise some good points, but if you actually looked at the data, it simply does not support your conclusions.

Look at Southwest Airlines - methodically building the business one city pair at a time, year after year for decades, long term thinking. Same with Walmart. even GM and Ford have 5 year product development cycles and 3 year plant build cycles. Their entire business is based on long term planning.

Then look at Carlyle or Cerberus privately controlled, completely focused on short term flip deals.

As a matter of fact I'll submit to you that you can't find any of the largest public companies in the US that suffers from the media creation of "short term thinking". Oil companies, invest tens of billions over decades to develop a new fiel. GE has 5, 10 and 15 year master plans. Same with IBM. Microsoft, Intel. Boeing/Airbus same.

It sounds good, but the data does not support the sound bite. As a matter of fact, the capital resources that public companies can raise is the only way to finance long term investment.

Baron95 said...

Dave said ... The APA says that the Russians are financing it along with a spanish company and if that's not true, it would seem that they could find themselves in a lot of trouble.

I don't have access to the documents, so it is like the blind leading the sighted.

My expectation is that they DO in fact have financing lined up and plan to continue. I was adressing the alternative possibility brought up by DB.

I supose that come 2009 the "previously lined up financing, didn't matterialize" line can be used. Would not be the first for Eclipse or RP. Rmemeber the October "in the bag" financing promise?

bill e. goat said...

B95,
I too was "amused" at how much paperwork was on Wedge's desk. Not particularly cluttered, just more than I would have expected.

BT- good funny. Thanks for the assy line photo B95- makes me wonder when it was taken.

B95,
I too was "amused" at how much paperwork was on Wedge's desk. Not particularly cluttered, just more than I would have expected.

BT & Moses- good funnies! B95- Thanks for the assy line photos (there are a lot of other good photo's on that site too).
----------------------------

Gunner,
I could believe someone could be temporarily "conned" out of their plane- what the heck, if I'd waited several years, what's a few more hours, right? (S-U-R-E...now THAT's disruptive customer care!!. I figure the thought of a TSA episode with "terrorists trying to steal an airplane" would be enough to have most people try to wait it out- for a while longer. The timing was extraordinarily sleazy from all appearances- I hope we hear more about this case- sounds like there ought to be charges brough, either on wire fraud, or theft (or both). Like you say, we haven't heard "the rest of the story" though...

----------------------------
In light of recent difficulties with deliveries and post-sale support, I think think EAC has recruited Wedge to come back as a "customer care" specialist.

Hi Wedge !!

(It pays better than being a greeter at Walmart, and the EAC clientele seem to be a bit more accepting than the public at large .)

(Word has it, Wedge hopes to hook up with a Santa Claus gig though- a white beard would help, but those horns and pitch fork have GOAT (ah, got) to go!)
----------------------------
(Sorry- Vova_K pushed me over the edge :)

...some would argue persuasively that happened when I was young, and I landed on my head...

sparky said...

As a matter of fact I'll submit to you that you can't find any of the largest public companies in the US that suffers from the media creation of "short term thinking".

citibank
lehman
enron
starbucks
morgan stanley
fanny may

Anonymous said...

Dave -

Appears that you are correct that the requests for a Customer Committee and for a Refund Depositor Committee were denied.

The TRO for the Genesis airplane will be addressed at the Omnibus Hearing on the 22nd.

Of note, Pasport 500 (Ken Owen) is on the Unsecured Creditor Committee. Reportedly he has the last airplane delivered ... and not held hostage.

Dave said...

Eclipse headquarters for sale!

bill e. goat said...

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the link on the HQ building for sale.
NOT the best sign, but sounds like they want to rent it back from the buyer.
Why would they bother to raise cash now, $8M or so= cost to build.
Why not "ride it out"?
Maybe short term money to cover operations until Jan?
Short sighted, if there is to be a surviving EAC.
Maybe they intend to move everything out to Double Eagle? Have to build- or rent- a new building there too.
Hmmmm...

Shane Price said...

Goat/Dave,

EAC HQ is indeed for sale.

Why?

Well, if you were a long term player in the area it would hardly make sense to rent premises, would it?

On the other hand, if your game plan involved leaving an entire city in the lurch some quiet weekend, for a more attractive 'financial climate' in, say, Russia, why not sell your premises before the mugs realize they've been had?

Now, if I was a heartless capitalist with no morals, a disregard for the truth and no sense of fair play in business, that's what I would do.

What do you think?

Shane

Anonymous said...

The description and date sounds like the training center at Double Eagle vice the HQ building.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Shane,
"On the other hand, if your game plan involved leaving an entire city"

Word has it, there's been a run on the company store:
Bags available
Oh my bags are packed...
:)

Baron95 said...

sparky said...

OK, I'll take the bait.

citibank - Yep, real short term thinking, a company that was formed in 1812 and grew to 350,000 employees and 200 million customers - yep, that really happened in a flash, no planning there.

lehman - Another real flash in the pants one - formed in 1850, an innovator in finance, the MOST PREPARED FINANCIAL SERVICES COMPANY FOR DISASTER AND BUSINESS CONTINUITY - it had state of the art investment in business technology continuity. Made some bad bets, got cocky not wanting to sell, fizzled out. That does not invalidate it's 158 year history. (but for the record, I said existing)

enron - I'll give you that one, even though there is a lot more to the story (again, I said existing, you seem intent on dragging the past)

starbucks - Wow, really short term on that one Founded in 1971, 37 years, 15,000 stores in 44 countries - really, no long term planning there, it was all an accident.

morgan stanley - Yep, they accumulated $800B in assets in 33 countries with no longer term planning at all. One of the offsprings from the house of Morgan, are just there by accident.

Back on topic. Given that Eclipse tried for the moonshot with their Avio Total Plane Integrations and all, and took 10 years to deliver a semi-done bird, you can say that it had too much long-term vision/planning.

Maybe it should have done it like Adam, first a piston then a jet, ... Oh wait, that didn't work either. Could it be that there is more to success or failure other than the media hyped "greed", "short term thinking".

Could it be something more basic like sound judgment and competent execution when the chips are down?

Could that be the difference between Cirrus and Eclipse or between Porsche/VW and Peugeot?

bill e. goat said...

Hi Zed,
Good catch on the Double Eagle building.
I thought training was "a money maker".
No wonder they're selling it- guess it didn't fit in the business plan.
:(

Baron95 said...

Shane, sorry to burst your buble, but everyone is doing it - sellign assets to raise cash.

Here is our industry alone there were 3 major deals announced today, including:

United Airlines parent UAL Corp. said Tuesday that it raised $150 million with a sale and leaseback deal involving 15 Boeing aircraft.

Now, you can ask, isn't UAL in the airline business long term? Why is it selling their planes?

The answer is, to be a long term player you have to survive. There are NO DEAD LONG TERM PLAYERS. Well, except Elvis.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Baron,
"Could it be something more basic like sound judgment and competent execution when the chips are down?"

I actually think EAC has been doing a respectable (ahem !!) job of executing while the chips are down.

The big problem with EAC was;

THEY DID A HORRIBLE JOB OF EXECUTING WHEN THE CHIPS WERE UP !!!

bill e. goat said...

Baron,
Regarding UAL, those rat bastards went down, with how much of post-9/11 tax payer bailout?!!

(And goats play money).

Rat Bastards !!!

Don't worry, I played it smart, and sold AA, at the bottom, just before they went BK. Wait a minute- at least I got the selling at the bottom right...:(

Speaking of Elvis, I think the Santa gig didn't work out for Wedge. Santa does NOT have sideburns. Not one to be easily deterred (or...educated), I present:
Wedge-NG

drillingahead said...

I listened to the hearing today and my impression was that the customer and deposit groups were a bit over lawyered by EAC. They were much better prepared. Also the creditors that spoke up were against the two groups also. EAC had four to one lawyer ratio to the other two groups. The judge sounded as though he was a little lost on the facts. He made one statement that the depositor group seemed to be jumping the gun because the new owner might just honor their claims and refund their money once they take over. They should wait and see how it works out. Thats 300MM between 500 depositors. Fat chance.

airtaximan said...

"The judge sounded as though he was a little lost on the facts"

required for this shennanigan to continue....

eclipse_deep_throat said...

Mr. Goat,

Hmmmm, you raise a good question: if one was foolish enough to buy something from the EAC store post-BK, do you really think EAC will provide the goods???? I wonder if I should perform an experiment for the good of all humankind.... LOL. I suspect they 'repossess' the goods as soon as I try to walk out the door. But the receptionist, Lesha Cole, was always kinda nice to me. So, mebbe it is just a matter of flirting a bit...

I for one have this stupid $250 EAC leather/wool bomber jacket that I'd love to sell on eBay. But my comic book collection from 1984-1985 might fetch more cash.
:-(

e.d.t.

Dave said...

I listened to the hearing today and my impression was that the customer and deposit groups were a bit over lawyered by EAC. They were much better prepared.

Of course, Roel has had months to plot against Eclipse's customers.

He made one statement that the depositor group seemed to be jumping the gun because the new owner might just honor their claims and refund their money once they take over. They should wait and see how it works out. Thats 300MM between 500 depositors. Fat chance.

Actually I think that could be very good if the judge said that. I'd ask the judge to let the customers to be able to return to court on that matter without prejudice. That way if Eclipse gets out of BK it doesn't mean that customers are wiped away without a further ruling.

Dave said...

Hmmmm, you raise a good question: if one was foolish enough to buy something from the EAC store post-BK, do you really think EAC will provide the goods???? I wonder if I should perform an experiment for the good of all humankind.... LOL.

The upside if they didn't deliver would be that you would be a creditor and as such could make filings in court without requiring the standard six figure entry fee to be a creditor of Eclipse.

airtaximan said...

Goat,

training IS a money maker, so is MRO, so is selling planes... so is a fuel deal, so is upgrades and mods...

...just not in this particular case. Not in the (real) plan, not in the cards.

Anonymous said...

Drilling-

Were you in Wilmington, or was it available via telecon?

The judge assigned is Mary Wallrath, so today's judge was likely a sit-in.

Finally, lawyer count is fine, but ultimately it will be who makes a better case. The EAC pleading completly ignored unsecured creditors. Reportedly the Trustee is viewing that as blatant arrogance. Say it isn't so.

airtaximan said...

"Could that be the difference between Cirrus and Eclipse or between Porsche/VW and Peugeot?"

Let see, one step closer, perhaps we can find an answer, here:

Cirrus and Eclipse.
Kit builder in a barn, transforms itself into a composite technology design firm, basing its business plan on re-establishing a market for an inexpensive single engine plane, of which many were sold, and the design and technology were antiquated.
- they built a modern version of a widely accepted product, and sold it based on value.

EAC - founded by a tech guru (self-proclaimed) pilot, who saw a prototype technology demo, and bit hard. Raised a ton of cash, and proceeded to try to establish a new aircraft category (VLJ) AND a new "use" (air taxi, as defined -revolutionary) and sold a product based on low cost into a self proclaimed HUGE market.

In Cirrus' case, they went after an established market, with a modern version of an existing configuration. BIG SUCCESS.

In EACs case, they went after a non-existent market, claiming to create on, where there really was none - air taxi. They are left with a product based on LOW COST high rate production, except, there's no high volume demand. BIG FAILURE.

You tell me which is Peugeot and which is Porche? Also, why place VW in the mix - OK they own Porche...

Porche is a niche product - not based onlow balled pricing and not based on a BS huge market.

VW sells value products into an existing market. Well established since the beginning of automobiles, and they sell based on volume and value.

Peugeot: I am no expert, but something tells me that they did not try to invent a market, nor did they low ball their pricing to attract a market and MISS by a long shot.

Did any of these guys plan an IPO based on over hyping a dead dog? I think not.

So, what's the analogy?

It is important to keep in mind that EAC screwed the pooch on the business plan from day one.
- no air taxi for this plane... none. It was designed for Vern's personal use, not commercial transport. It competes well for Vern-type jet egos, not with props that service most of the same mission as the ea50, with better economics and no penalty for speed.
- there was no high volume, no huge order book, no prospect of making money at the "value" price of around $1M.

The judge should just sound a huge GONG, and everyone should go home. Program over.

airtaximan said...

so, they are going to lease back the building and default on the lease after taking the money?

C'mon.

airtaximan said...

"Eclipse has liabilities of $1 billion and assets between $100 million and $500 million. Its creditors exceed 5,000."

pls explain the range between $100-$500M???

Even $100M is a strech IMO

Dave said...

pls explain the range between $100-$500M???

That's the category that they checked off on their bankruptcy petition. The BK petition provides ranges to check off for assets and liabilities.

drillingahead said...

Zed, I listened in on Telecon. I listened in on about 2hrs. worth.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
just zis guy, ya know? said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
drillingahead said...

just zis, same call, I typed he instead of she. Did you listen to the whole call. I missed the last part because of lunch.

bill e. goat said...

9Z,
Congrats on the Phenom!
Seems like the Embraer flight test program went pretty well (16+ months?...if only...). I'm sure FAA cert is not far off.

BTW, one of the most interesting books I've read about WAY-early aviation (it's only $2-11 bucks )
Wings of Madness

(Well, NO. It is NOT about Wedge).

Although, "he built 'the world's first sports plane.'" (Disruptive VLJ progenitor ?!?)

Baron95 said...

B.E.G said .... I played it smart, and sold AA, at the bottom, just before they went BK.

Be careful there BEG. AA is the only legacy US airline that has never been in bankruptcy court. And I happen to have just shy of 4 MILLION miles on it and many friends there.

If you think it is easy running an airline with the unions, take a look at the latest presentation AA made to the federal labor mediators in a joint session with the APA pilot reps earlier this month. The pilots, incidentally, walked out.

Baron95 said...

ATM said ... why place VW in the mix - OK they own Porche...

The other way around, ATM. Porsche is consistently the most profitable automaker (average profit per vehicle) and they just own about 75% of VW, and have the highest book value of any automaker in the world. And I do mean any. For a while this fall, VW had the highest market cap of any company in the face of the earth.

Porsche is by far the best run company in Germany. I don't particularly like their cars, except for the Cayman, but who am I to argue with success. Evidently there are enough fat, bald man that think they can get laid if they drive the horribly handling and dated 911.

Baron95 said...

NZ said ... Embraer received their Type Certificate for the Phenom 100 today (in Brazil, anyway...). Top speed of 390 kts is 10 kts better than forecast, range is slightly better than forecast at 1178 nm. Congrats to them. I'm drooling!

Yep, I got wind of it late last week, as I posted here, that it was done, just needed to be announced.

Wait till you see the Phenom 300. It is 50% more, but that is one great jet. I had access to one of the flight test article and test pilots, and they say it is BY FAR the best handling swept wing plane in the skies. They are shooting for common type ratings for the 100 and 300.

Look for Cessna to announce the Mustang + or Mustang II around this time next year as their book to order ratio hits 1 to 1.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Baron,
Thanks for the !@ painful reminder .)

"just before they went BK. Wait a minute- at least I got the selling at the bottom right...:("

Back in 2003, a few weeks after UAL went BK, I sold all my AA, for about the price of a recycled soda can- about 2 hours before the AA pilots union made unexpected concessions which prevented BK. Good for them, not so good for me.

Learned my lesson- after that I invested in scrap aluminum. Kind of like Al Mann...

Baron95 said...

B.E.G Embraer was actually late by 2 months based on their internal targets, but boy they hit this one out of the ball park.

The plane is FULLY CERTIFIED (no restrictions) out of the bat. VFR, IFR, Day/Night, FIKI, RSVM. In addition they beat all performance parameters by good margins (3-4%).

Take off from Aspen with 4 PAX, climb directly to FL410, cruise at 390KTAS for almost 1,200 nm NBAA range, land in 2,700 ft, fully functional Prodigy/G1000 stack for under $3M!!!!!

That is value.

If all goes well, Phenom 300 should be certified by summer. Embraer has been hitting on all cylinders on all their programs since the E170.

Baron95 said...

Disclaimer: Members of my extended family, hold executive management positions and have direct interests in Embraer.

Just so that no one accuses me of trying to sneakily cajole people into buying Phenoms. Well, actually, I am, but it is because I think they are great planes for a great value.

Baron95 said...

Also to be clear, the under $3M price on the Phenom is for the existing depositors (see folks, sometime being an early depositor does pay off). The prices if you buy one now are slightly more than $3.0M. I think $3.2M or so typically equipped. Still a great value. That is CJ1+ cabin volume and performance for $2M less.

bill e. goat said...

Hi B95,
Thanks for the insight on the Phenom, and the interesting details of your Brazilian connections. It does sound like the Phenom is a great value.

(It's just about where I wish EAC would have gone, instead of downmarket).
---------------------------------

(re: Mustang) "as their book to order ratio hits 1 to 1".

Speaking of order books...
I wonder what the EAC sales team is doing lately? I would have expected a full court press to avoid BK, with special offers, etc.

Instead, it seems things just went poof in August- maybe that's when the cash ran out and suppliers said "enough" ??

Puzzling.

I'm also puzzled why the Con-Jet is featured so prominently on the EAC web site, particularly since it was "suspended".

Sort of like reality. (And much like Il Duce, and as the depositors would probably like to "support" El Wedgo... :)
Benny

"After 1936, his official title was "His Excellency Benito Mussolini, Head of Government, Duce of Fascism, and Founder of the Empire".

- hmmmm -

"After 1998, his official title was "His Excellency, Head of Disruption, Duce of Very Light Jets, and Founder of the Empire"
:)

Niner Zulu said...

BGoat-the Phenom is around $3.2m typically equipped. Great, that means I only have to make another $3.15m so I can afford it ;-).

Actually, I did get the go-ahead from the wife to order early at $2.75m + CPI, but I got cold feet. In retrospect, I'm glad I waited. I'd like to see 50 or so flying first. There always seem to be major improvements that happen not too long after an aircraft is introduced.

fred said...

Evidently there are enough fat, bald man that think they can get laid if they drive the horribly handling and dated 911

i thought it was AMG , mainly because there is too many that want to show-off buying cars they will never be able to use (lawfully) in their country ?? i must have been mistaken ...

Ps : i own a Porsche Boxster , not really fat and absolutely not bald ... ;-)

fred said...

9z :


yes , "disruptive proposition value" on Mustang are probably not very far off ...

that is the value of waiting a bit , and not fall in the first marketing trap ...! :-)

airsafetyman said...

"There are NO DEAD LONG TERM PLAYERS."

You haven't flown United lately?

Ken Meyer said...

Baron95 wrote,

"Take off from Aspen with 4 PAX, climb directly to FL410, cruise at 390KTAS for almost 1,200 nm NBAA range, land in 2,700 ft, fully functional Prodigy/G1000 stack for under $3M!!!!!"

That would be nice, but it doesn't do all that stuff, Baron. Honest. Not simultaneously. Yes, you can climb directly to FL 410 (you can in the Eclipse too), but once you get there, it doesn't go 1200 nm at 390 knots; it gets maximum range at long range cruise speed, 330 knots (same as the Eclipse at that altitude). The 390 knots maximum cruise speed is lower in thirties, just like the Eclipse achieves its maximum cruise speed (about 375 knots) at lower than maximum altitude.

The Phenom 100 won't take off from Aspen with 4 passengers when it's hot. Not legally (because of one engine inoperative restrictions).

And it isn't under $3 million any more. According to Embraer's own press release, "Brought to January 2009 economic conditions, the price will be US$ 3.6 million for FAA certification."

Don't get me wrong...It IS a very nice plane (and an even nicer company). But with a gross weight of over 10,000 lbs, it isn't actually a VLJ at all--it looks to me like a sweet competitor for the CJ1+. However with a fuel burn more than 60% higher than the EA-500 and a price tag upfront of $3.6 million, it really doesn't fit in the same category as the Eclipse at all.

Ken

bill e. goat said...

9Z,
I think you were prudent in waiting- Embraer seems to be pretty market savvy, and if they select a product for development, I think they follow through well. Still, the first airplanes are always subject to rolling revisions it seems.

Ken,
Good point about the relative market niche's, EA-500 vs Phenom-100.
I have been a bit puzzled about the gap in manufacturer's lineups; Cessna jumps from the 206 to the Mustang; HawkerBeech jumps from the Baron to the Premier; everyone else is either down-market, or up-market. (The Piper jet seems to be an exception, if it comes to fruition, I still have some reservations...).

Any theory on why this is "untouched" by others? I really think it is a sweet spot in the market, for someone like EAC, or someone else- I'm just puzzled why no one else is going after it, at least right now. Maybe the SEJ market will engulf most of this market, say up to 5000 lb mtow. I still seems there is a market gap for a 5500-7500 lb twinjet though.
Thanks!

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Niner Zulu said...

I don't think you'll need to pay $3.6m for a Phenom. Or even $3.2m for that matter. There were a whole lot of Phenoms bought on spec, just as with the Mustang and the Eclipse.

When they placed their orders, few spec buyers could have foreseen that their personal net worth was about to drop by 25-40%. That has changed their whole perspective, and it has changed the perspective of the future buyer as well. The factory will have little pricing power with so many spec sellers, and competition to liquidate positions will cause premiums to disappear once the first few planes hit the market.

Just wait a bit, and you may see Phenom's with 50 hrs on them dip into the high 2's.

Niner Zulu said...

I just saw a 2nd Mustang on Controller with NO premium.

A Mustang with 300 hrs on it is advertised at $2.95m asking. A reasonable selling price might be $2.6m if they are lucky.

Hello, mid-2's!

bill e. goat said...

9Z,
"Final thought - position holders who lost only their initial deposit of $180,000 have much to be thankful for...Because nothing is selling, prices are dropping."

I think you are right, and agree with the spirit with which it is offered- that is the one bright spot for the folks who involuntarily supported EAC's wealth redistribution program.

Now, if the operating costs on the large alternatives could be brought down to match- well, if petro continues to fall...

drillingahead said...

Ken, since you are an active owner. What are your comments on the Eclipse owner I read about who had a problem 3 weeks ago with high temp on one engine and made a precautionary landing in Las Vegas and downloaded the data and sent it to Eclipse who forwarded it to P&W who responded that the problem was not P&W and was caused by the AVIO processor and the engine would require an inspection with poss. cost of 120-150K with the owner responsible for the payment. His aircraft is sitting on the ramp in Las Vegas. P&W is waiting on a check. Do you send your info. in monthly as requested.

Black Tulip said...

Ken opined, regarding the Phenom 100,

"...it really doesn't fit in the same category as the Eclipse at all."

Thankfully, no other aircraft fits in the same category as the Eclipse. It stands alone in so many ways.

Anonymous said...

Bill-E-Goat said ...

Any theory on why this is "untouched" by others? I really think it is a sweet spot in the market, for someone like EAC, or someone else- I'm just puzzled why no one else is going after it, at least right now.


I think that one aspect is motors.

In that size gap you either need a great turboprop or a great turbojet ...and at least right now, the cost/performance makes it challenging to hit that sweetspot.

IF the market is there, and if the business model is right, it clearly can be done.

But, it is much easier and less risky to drift up from the 206 or down from the CJ than to define an entire new space.

fred said...

Billy :

i feel that the "the sweet spot" you are talking about and the attempt to fill it with Ea500 has shown the market more segmented that the "market survey EAC hasn't done" could have shown ...

the worst aspect of the EA500 being :
a plane too small for air-taxi , even if it was supposed to developed for ...

a plane too big for a owner-pilot and wife ...
(in term of :attempt to put many seats in a small hull with nearly no luggages capacity = remember the photo [from kenny?] showing the two last seats full of stuff ? must be a reason !)

with someone thinking with his brain , not with his mouth like the wedge EAC could have been inspired to produce 2 different :one smaller for private , one bit bigger for air-taxi ...(to allow business-travelers to fly with a bit more than a lap-top !!)

they coul have kept the engines for the small , take the next sized one for the bigger ...

being with a safety-margin would have made a world of difference ...

off-course , in this scenario , the victims wouldn't have been kindly asked to pony their cash to develop something not meant for them ...

because this is IMO what is the crucial poop in this project ,
they forgot a simple saying :

if you try to please every one , you 'll end-up pleasing no one !

airtaximan said...

drilling..

this situation was predicted on this blog years ago...

your fault... nope, your fault... nope, your fault...my fault? you kidding? Warrantee?

At least there's no warantee issue any longer.

:(

fred said...

Bt

# Thankfully, no other aircraft fits in the same category as the Eclipse. It stands alone in so many ways.

be kind , kenny has still his pink goggles on ...

it's kind of sad to see someone stating his plane burn 60% less ...
with not a single assurance his bird will still be flying tomorrow ...!

if i understood well , it is not complete fantasy that the BK Judge decide that the whole thing has lasted only too long and has to fold definitely ... (rejecting the 363 for non-rational plan to get out of the mess !)

airtaximan said...

$1 Million in acquisition cost = $100k per year...

If you think this makes or breaks an air taxi business, you have no clue.

Make a plane that can operate with greated dispatch reliability, lower maintenance cost, and greater passenger comfort, and can accomplish real jet missions, and you have a winner.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

BEG, the reason that market space (jet performance and pipston cost) is untouched has been clearly demonstrated over the past decade - nobody, and I mean NOBODY, can build a plane that straddles both the performance AND cost divides simultaneously.

Seriously, if you want a plane with jet performance and high-end piston costs, the Epic LT is the only 'new' plane that does it out of the box. Look for a certified aircraft from Epic to be in the $2-2.5M range I bet.

Otherwise, a used TBM, Meridian or PropJet are about it - and they are all slower.

Hell, the latest Mooney's are a better and safer bet.

Cirrus Vision jet is less than 100 kts faster than SR-22GTS and what, 3 times more $$.

Diamond D-Jet is also a nice plane but again, not real jet performance and not really piston cost either.

Adam will come back I believe but the A-700 is a niche player and will be pricey.

Even the PiperJet which I think will do well does not really do it all.

Eclipse has failed and will not rise like some pheonix from the ashes, hard core fans will find out when they are AOG, permanently, due to lack of the proprietary parts and components and a lack of interest from the screwed over vendors.

The combination of performance and cost that you are asking about is right at the edge of the laws of physics and beyond the laws of economics.

IMO of course, your mileage may vary.

fred said...

airtaximan:

#At least there's no warantee issue any longer.

wasn't it part of jetINcomplete ?

silly me ! that's a money pit as well ...

Ken Meyer said...

Drillingahead--I don't know enough yet about that particular case. I understand he got an engine control message in flight, continued to the destination, landed normally and got a brief temperature spike upon shutdown. PWC and EAC are apparently not yet in agreement what the underlying cause was. If it is ultimately determined to be a FADEC fault, I *think* responsibility will indeed fall upon PWC to correct. They may be stalling 'cause they're unenthusiastic about expending more resources on the PW610 program right now.

Ken

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Ken, if part of the monies EAC owes P&WC are for PBH/warranty costs through JetInComplete (suspicion only), would you expect P&WC to give a rat's patooty?

Have you been given a PBH cost estimate for your engines yet?

fred said...

wetfish:

what did you expect ?

if to be a surgeon : anyone had just to pick-up a bistouri and start to cut in the fact ...

or if to be a plane maker, dreams could be enough :

anyone wishing to be ,could do it any time ...

Wedge has sold a dream ...
a dream ending in a nightmare

that is why economics and physics laws are not fitting in !

fred said...

Kenny :

They may be stalling 'cause they're unenthusiastic about expending more resources on the PW610 program right now.

is that going to be a good "it wasn't me" story ?

each one saying the fault is result of some poop of the other part ...

just hope for you that PWC remain a minimum enthusiast about fixing and servicing the engines ...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

I would expect P&WC's PBH cost for Eclipse owner's engines only to be on the same level as the entire JetInComplete cost.

The owner's really should consider forming a group for buys with P&WC, Jepp, fuel, and other vendors - otherwise, the costs for operating the jet, exclusive of maintenance related to the airframe itself, will escalate significantly.

Baron95 said...

Fred said ... i thought it was AMG , mainly because there is too many that want to show-off buying cars they will never be able to use (lawfully) in their country ??

Quite the contrary Fred. Most women, unfortunately, have no idea what the 3 letters AMG mean, and thankfully neither do the cops over here - it is truly stealthy. It will make you smile, but won't get you laid. ;)

Incidentally, I use the full capabilities of the car quite legally every day and 6-8 weekends/year at the tracks.

But there is always the chance, that "inadvertently" I might occasionally exceed "slightly" exceed the posted speed limits.

Also Fred, I'll be in your neck of the woods driving the Nordschleife for the second time next July (25-27). If you are around, come to the Ring. You can see the AMG academy in action, and join the fun in your R8. I'm not sure if you can drive your boxter there without roll bars installed.

It's quite fun. I'm still working on breaking the 9-min mark - it is tough when I couldn't get a dry track :(

So, as you were cautioned yesterday by the Russians, be careful about making too many assumptions about American driving.

Cheers.

Baron95 said...

Ken you are correct - I didn't mean to imply that it could do the full list simultaneously. And I also am on record many times on this blog saying that to me VLJ is under 6,000 lbs MTOW, like EA500, DJet, etc. The others (Mustang, Phenom, etc) are light jets.

I do believe that being a straight part 23, the Phenom can depart Aspen on a hot day with 4 pax under Part 91 ops.

And you are right on the price and the competition being the CJ1+. But I do think it will take business away from the Mustang, the TBM the BE90 and a few others.

fred said...

baron ...

i was only picking on you , bit of fun ... sometimes ..:-)

I use the Boxster only when in Morocco (it is sitting in garage there ) , since it is without the top , it nice to use and i like the "Music" from the engine ...

i wasn't not really referring at your driving capacities , but to be honest , i must warn you that i got "fast and emergency driving training" (security services) few years ago on a M5-overcharged ...

so i may be tempted to take you on ... ;-))

fred said...

i forgot :
if you want some thrill , it could be better to do it on "speedfreï autobahn" ...

Anonymous said...

Didn't Eclipse split engine support from JestComplete to a "direct from PWC" deal?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Zed you may be correct, I might be thinking about previous iterations of JetInComplete.

fred said...

and about being cautioned by a russian :

he didn't get the meaning of my post ...
my fault it was a bit gloomy , but i was pointing out to airtaxi that in the case of RP making them a baby in the back ...

the really nicest of nicest thing that could happen to him is to be expelled ...

as penitentiary colonies in russia have really nothing of vacation-camp ...and all the lawyers of our part of world would mean nothing against it !!

Baron95 said...

CW said ...Cirrus Vision jet is less than 100 kts faster than SR-22GTS and what, 3 times more $$.

Diamond D-Jet is also a nice plane but again, not real jet performance and not really piston cost either.


I don't like to compare paper/prototype airplanes with delivered/real planes, but...

If you assume that the DJet and SJ50 will hit their 300+KTAS, 1000nm range, at their sub $1.4M price, then those planes will have 40% more real world speed than the Mirage (piston) for a 40% higher price, similar range, cabin space, better payload. They will also be significantly less expensive than the Meridian (turboprop) and some 20% faster.

And obviously, Cessna already demonstrated that they can fly a twin turbofan Mustang with a much larger cabin (30%) faster (10%) with slightly less range (-15%) for the same price as a single turboprop TBM.

So, CW, the data seems to indicate that there is absolutely no STEP when you go from piston to turboprop to fan jet.

To be fair, efficiency in nm/$ of fuel favors the props. But the margin is not that high.

The only reason that we haven't seen more fan jets in that class is simply because there have not been any new clean sheet GA designs in that segment (pressurized planes in the 4,000-6,000 lbs range) since the Malibu 25 years ago.

Baron95 said...

Fred, you must have some big balls driving a convertible in Morocco. A buddy of mine once told me he saw a guy being pulled out of a convertible at gun point at a traffic light there.

My I suggest the S600 Guard for that mission?

Baron95 said...

fred said...
i forgot :
if you want some thrill , it could be better to do it on "speedfreï autobahn" ...


Autobann is Way over rated. Every time I was in Germany I tried to have some fun just to be disappointed.

A - You have to drive for 30-60 minutes to get out of town.

B - There is usually traffic heavy traffic.

C - The no-speed limit stretches are short and BORING.

So I really don't try anymore. I'd rather drive to the ring, pay my 20 euros and be done with it.

Shadow said...

Tip o' the hat to Gad:

Taxpayer Watchdogs Release 2008 New Mexico Piglet

Shadow said...

The Piglet report details some "specific boondoggles," including (drum roll please):

Eclipse Aviation, which the press release notes just declared bankruptcy.

Black Tulip said...

Shadow,

Thanks for the list of state-sponsored boondoogles. As a former New Mexico resident I found many noteworthy causes. Besides Eclipse, one of my favorites is, "$280,000 to put on a peace conference in Santa Fe in May, 2007."

We can only guess at the said state of world affairs if that money had not been so wisely expended.

julius said...

Fred,

bonsoir,

i forgot :
if you want some thrill , it could be better to do it on "speedfreï autobahn" ...



don't tell B95 to use the Autobahn - that is like applied security training! The Nordschleife is like sim driving, the Autobahn is real life and responsibility for yourself and other drivers!

What about RP's responsibilities to employees, customers...
The first result seems to be the handling of the engine problem. Has the customer the right data to put pressure on any of the involved parties?
(I personally do not dare to say who might be responsible for the damage!)
Another emergency landing and FAA might get nervous...

Julius

gadfly said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

Shadow

At first, I thought the title, "New Mexico Piglet" was a description of our governors rotund "figure" . . . but the term "piglet" is a gross understatent. Then I realized the "true" meaning . . . and it still fails to encompass the full size of the matter.

In keeping with current events in Illinois, we're learning the purchase price of a "senator". And in like manner, we're learning the price of becoming "Commerce Secretary" in the cabinet. It is to the credit of the citizens/taxpayers of New Mexico, that we can honestly boast . . . we have extended our generosity to the nation with one of the finest policians/public servants that money can buy.

gadfly

(And, by the way, I don't wear a hat . . . tipped or otherwise. That big shiny thing in all my pictures used to be covered with blond hair.)

fred said...

guten Abend , Julius ...


autobahn = real life driving :
yes , this is where lies all the fun ;-) ...

the engine thing can be a real nightmare , victim has to go to engine-manufacturer and pay from his pocket , but at the same time the plane manufacturer has proprietary rights over the plane ...
so the guarantee is voided is you seek other sources than plane-maker ...

bk or not bk , something to get lost in conjectures as who is to fix , who is to get the money , who is to bear responsibilities ... ;-)

fred said...

Mr Gadfly :

are you suggesting that one of the way to get appointed is to spend a few billions in pure waste ?? ;-)

ouchh , don't beat me ... sure it must hurt when you're the one paying ....

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Baron you have missed my point:

Mooney Acclaim Type S - 242 KTAS, 23 gph, 1000 useful (up to 600 in fuel), 1400nm range, ~$650K

D-Jet - 315 KTAS, 40 gph, 2100 useful (up to 1300 in fuel), 1320nm range, ~$1.4M

SJ-50 - 300 KTAS, 63 gph, 2300 useful (up to 1900 in fuel), 1100nm range (to match the Mooney range, you are cruising at 250 KTAS vs 220), ~ $1.6M

Is jet envy worth a 2-3 X increase in price, a 2-3 X increase in fuel flow, for a 5-20% increase in speed, 5,000 feet in altitude, and 10%less range?

Why doesn't Beech make the P-Baron anymore?

Why is the Malibu the only certified piston inflatable?

As a parting shot, Lancair IV-P - 300 KTAS, 22 gph, 1350 useful (up to 540 in fuel), 1550nm range, ~ $480K.

How much does removing a prop really cost? ;^)

gadfly said...

fred

The two English words, "pure" and "waste" are seldom found in the same sentence. And we would say, in regard to purchasing a political position, "pure waste" would be considered, what we call, an "oxy-moron" . . . coming from two words meaning a "sharp fool", which is in itself an "oxy-moron", which is a "pure waste" of words. I hope you understand, because I do not.

gadfly

fred said...

baron ...

no , i don't have have big balls ( but i must recognize that since it is not exactly where i look in men , it's difficult to compare ... ;-) )

i was just born there , and i have a kind of shack where , usually i spend winter ...

since a few families are employed to keep the place , i am known around ...

i financially help an NGO to raise children in proper manner (the deal is simple : we give help to the poor families if they send kid to school )

so i have not too much to fear there ...

at the same time , after working half of my life with poor in forgotten places , it is a kind a habit of knowing what to do , how to do and when NOT to do ...

would you go having a walk in a "favella" with a 10.000$ watch at your wrist ?

problems often occurs when you are not doing sensible things where you should blend in the mass ...

just a question of habit ... and it helps to speak the language !

fred said...

Mr Gadfly ...

thanks for the lesson !

i was too literal in the translation of my thoughts ...!

julius said...

B95,

just come to Germany for driving on the Autobahn - that's complete nonsense. When the roads are empty it's just boring, with some traffic is's hard work, etc...

If you like the Nordschleife (but not the Hockenheimring) - do it, enjoy it!

Julius

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Lest I be accused of being mistaken I did recall the Extra 400, however, unsere freunde at Extra FlugzeugProduktion und Vertrieb GmBH are no longer making the Extra 400 (last available for about $1M) - they only make the Allison powered 500 now.

Baron95 said...

Julius, isn't that what I said? Either clogged or boring.

As for Hockenheimring, I'm not familiar with that track. Can you just pay and drive like the 'ring? I also get bored very quickly when I learn a track - I could never learn the 'ring - it is an incredible place.

Baron95 said...

CW said ... Mooney Acclaim Type S - 242 KTAS, 23 gph, 1000 useful (up to 600 in fuel), 1400nm range, ~$650K

CW, no one has independently confirmed more than 236 in the Acclaim. And it ONLY happens at 25K, and sucking O2 - pretty harsh to put your 2 years old through that (assuming you can get her to keep the mask on).

As for range, you are dreaming. With standard tanks full, the Acclaim has about 350 lbs of payload. If you have TKS and air conditioning it is more like 200 lbs. In that configuration, the extended range tanks (needed for the range you mentioned) full would require a twenty-pound pilot.

Lets compare at lease apple to oranges - single engine pressurized 5-6 place planes, shall we? It is Malibu, Meridian, TBM, D-Jet, SJ-50. There is no question that the price-performance equation is worse for the turboprobs, and the piston with the jets a clear winner (assuming they meet their numbers on performance and price)

Baron95 said...

Fred said... problems often occurs when you are not doing sensible things where you should blend in the mass

You mean like driving a Porsche convertible in the streets of Morocco? ;)

Now someone please post something related to Eclipse!!!!!

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Baron, please find your meds or relax a little buddy.

I only provided raw OEM reported numbers and made no suggestion that max range, max useful load and max speed are available simultaneously, they are not for any family of aircraft (although Epic comes very close).

Since there are currently NO complete and viable VLJ's at market, and since you had brought up the D-Jet and SJ-50, I compared them to the plane I mentioned - nothing more.

A loaded SJ-50 attempting to match range with a loaded Mooney Acclaim Type S will be burning 2 times as much fuel to travel 20-30 mph faster, sure, one flies with a mask at FL250, the other in a pressurized cockpit at FL250 - so what.

Is PX nice, sure it is, but $20K in parts does not compute to an extra $1M in price, nor does no appreciable change in range, nor does a VERY limited ability to dash out at 300 kts (at 3 X the fuel flow), nor does the jet noise - IMO.

BEG's original question was why there are no planes in the 'sweet spot' that Eclipse aimed at - I posit it is because they can not be built in such a way that the performance per dollar ratio makes any sense.

Do the SEJ's show promise in closing the gap? Maybe for some - but for me, I would prefer the overall utility of the Epic LT to either the D-Jet or the SJ-50.

There is a sharply defined step because the laws of physics and the laws of economics do not intersect there, they meet above and below that point.

All Eclipse has proven is that they can (sort-of) design and (sort-of) build a plane that is considerably smaller than the Mustang, incomplete, and that costs about the same to build.

Disruptive.

bill e. goat said...

Well, it's not very Eclipse-ish, except for being weird, and disruptive...
Mooney with a RR turbine

CWMOR,
Rog-o on the Extra 500, it looks nice too...
Extra 500
(Odd, I would have thought there would have been a bigger market for the piston powered Extra 400).
Extra 400
Not sure the same could be said of this one though...
Extra Stupid

julius said...

Baron95,

Hockenheim,


it's just for formula 1....

Even if the Autobahn is not clogged
it's no problem to drive much faster than 100 mph - but you must not mind trucks 5 feet on the right hand side of you and must be aware that some drivers changes the track without giving any sign...

In summer on Sunday early morning (4 or 5 o'clock) you may perform races ....


Julius

airtaximan said...

bille:

its called the...


"Extra $3 Billion"

just zis guy, ya know? said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

“. . . something related to Eclipse!!!!!”

Alright! In recent shared pictures . . . some showing the internal structure of the “little bird”, there appeared to be a sudden transition internally between fuselage and empennage . . . the rows of rivets were obvious (back through the empennage). Now, if it were designed as a “crush zone”, as in an automobile, that would understandable. But a sudden change of design philosophy between major sections (“i.e.: rivet/FSW”), would at least require extensive life cycle/fatigue testing. When a composite structure is designed, such a sudden transition is to be avoided at all costs. “Shear zones” had better have a specific purpose. But here, there seems no concern . . . almost “begging” for a single point/line of failure. In all of creation, I can only think of one such example . . . the tail of a lizard, that “breaks off” as the little reptile attempts to escape from the jaws of an enemy . . . but at least it still has four legs, and all vital organs. But the sudden failure between major components on an aircraft? . . . That’s an “un-good” thing!

Here’s something to see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vickers_Wellington_Mark_X,_HE239_%27NA-Y%27,_of_No._428_Squadron_RCAF_(April_1943).png

Eclipse design seems to have ignored all of the valuable lessons of the past.

Back in ancient times, Lockheed formed two halves of laminated wood in a single concrete female mold . . . pressurized with a “rubber bladder” until the glue had “cured”, to produce the two sides of the monocoque fuselage of the “Vega” . . . a most wonderful aircraft. Of course, that was almost eighty years ago . . . what did those old guys know! (On record, I don’t recall ever reading about the fuselage ever coming apart.)

It is my firm opinion . . . the single thing that might save future disasters is the total financial failure of Eclipse. This little jet, although “fun to fly” for some, exhibits characteristics of something designed by “committee” . . . there is no unifying theme in structural design to assure a safe and durable aircraft. Far too many components are not integrated into the “whole”.

The aircraft that ran off the runway . . . father and daughter “walked away” (fortunately), . . . there was something in those pictures and others of the aircraft in the hangar that especially caught my eye. Instead of the main gear, shearing off, or “bending back under the wing”, popped vertically through the wing . . . almost assuring that repair/rebuild would not be possible. Most other aircraft in such a simple incident would not suffer such damage, and, I venture, hundreds of other aircraft have gone on to fly another day . . . and for many future years. But this little bird goes off the end . . . and suffers “The End”. This, in my mind, is a serious and inexcusable design flaw.

OK . . . there you have some comments about Eclipse . . . and to me far more relevant than all the other interesting experiences of driving a “Porsche” on the Autobahn.

No offense intended, but the “sign on the door” did say something about “Eclipse”.

gadfly

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Zis,

Cessna refuses to call the Mustang a VLJ (they prefer entry level jet I believe) and at 8,645 lbs MTOW it does not fit Baron's 6,000 lb 'VLJ' limit (neither does a fully loaded E-500 for that matter - with a 6,029 Max Ramp Weight).

Shane Price said...

Anyone want to try a Google for

Eclipse Aviation

Must mean that Google didn't get their 'premium search' money this month...

It's also possible that 'we' are Number One on merit.

Either way, I think I'll have an extra pint (Guinness, of course) on Friday night to celebrate.

Shane

Baron95 said...

CW, the Eclipse MTOW is bellow 6,000 lbs - it would fit the definition if it were in production.

BTW, it is not my definition. The FAA has a definition for light twin engine airplanes and it is at 6,000 lbs MTOW or below. Those airplanes, among other things do not need to show positive rate of climb on engine failure. It is on MTOW, not ramp weight. It is also a distinct tax threshold in many jurisdictions, so it is important for that as well. Insurance companies also seem to have adopted that as a class distinction as well.

So there remains only one VLJ that is certified, but not in production. The EA500. Looks like DJet will be next followed by SJ50.

Shane Price said...

Oh, and please don't tell Wedge that EAC are Number Two.

It really will hurt his feelings, being such a 'leader' in IT....

Shane

Baron95 said...

As to the previous question... why did Beech Stop making the P-Baron, for the same reasons that Cessna stopped making the P-210 and 414 and 421 etc...

1 - Market collapsed in the 80s.

2 - Liability insurance became unaffordable.

3 - They built too many in the 70s and were facing severe competition from used planes hitting the market.

4 - Trying to pump a cabin using turbocharger air is a nightmare for the engine. If you fly any of these planes near their ceiling everything runs hot and everything breaks. The engine reliability of a C425 vs a C421C (same basic airframe) is a world apart.

Lets see how Diamond does with the DA-50 which will be pumped up by piston turbo exhaust circa 2010 (so they claim).

Baron95 said...

Shane, at least from the US, Eclipse Aviation comes up on top.

Baron95 said...

The google search, I mean.

just zis guy, ya know? said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Baron,

It was a rhetorical question but you gave the primary reasons.

I am very interested in how the DA-50 works out, the Twinstar was a bit of a disappointment in terms of schedule performance and, well, performance performance - add in the Thielert debacle and the DA-42 is a non-starter.

I think a good business could be made retrofitting a ~350hp aero diesel into the old Malibu/Mirage airframes, IF they did not suffer the same issues of over-taxing the turbocharger bleed capability.

Unfortunately, that thought was based on the Centurion 4.0, from Thielert.

We'll have to see how Diamond addresses a big bore aero diesel, or maybe the DeltaHawk guys.

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