I got this from a 'reliable source' during today (Thursday 11th) and pass it on. As always, it's nice to have a first hand account of these events, in a timely manner.
Shane
Thursday 11th 18.15 GMT
Formation of the Unsecured Creditors Committee
A very interesting day, with a few unexpected surprises.
Per procedure, on Monday December 8th the US Trustee sponsored the formation of the "Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors". There were about 50 people in the conference room when I slipped among those standing in the back. The group was probably 25% creditors or proxies, 50% attorneys and accountants looking to get hired by the committee, and 25% interested gawkers.
The Debtors Team (saying Debtor is so much more apt that saying Eclipse) and the Trial Attorney and Analyst from the US Trustee's office took their place at head table. The Trial Attorney provided a brief introduction on process, and then the Debtors were asked to provide a statement.
To set the scene, Mark Borseth (Debtor CEO) and Bruce Castle (Debtor "In"-House Counsel) were flanked by their hired guns from Allen & Overy ("Out"-House counsel from NYC) and Young Conaway (local counsel). Borseth looked like it was an imposition that he had to be there, and slouched in his seat like my 6th grader. Castle had that deer in the headlights look as he surveyed the standing room crowd. Such a struggle to fly first class from Albuquerque and stay at the Four Seasons with your $700 per hour lawyers.
The Debtors' attorneys feigned having a stack of briefs but in reality had nothing prepared. They spoke maybe 75-100 words TOTAL, lasting maybe 30-45 seconds. The only question pertained the Debtors' requested deadline for objections to their proposed Sale Procedures. Trying to appear magnanimous, the Debtors' Council agreed to another day or day and a half. But in reality he came off as even more arrogant.
At that point, the Debtors Team was asked to leave the room, and the Trial Attorney set out to form the committee. Present were a few big creditors (Hampson, Precision Aerostructures, Pratt & Whitney) and maybe one or two smaller ones. Represented by lawyers/proxy were a few more big creditors (DayJet, LeBarge, etc.) and possibly a few owners.
Notably absent were any actual owners or depositors of any denomination. More notably absent was any significant response to the questionnaire sent to the 20 largest creditors, but available to all. The guys who have made noise for years, and are clammoring to get what is owed them couldn't be bothered to make a day trip to Wilmington.
The Trial Attorney spent a little over 2 hours interviewing the creditors that showed up in person, and calling those that responded to the questionnaire. The Trial Attorney and Debtors Team returned around 2:00 pm, Borseth resumed his slump, and the committee members were announced.
The rest of us were kicked out of the room while the committee had a chance to ask questions of the Debtors. Must have been really grueling, as the Debtors were coming out the door after maybe 3 minutes.
At that point, the committee set about interviewing the law firms and accountancy firms that came in search of work. Kind of like ambulance chasers for the bankruptcy crowd. We all waited in the hallway while each of seven or eight firms made their pitch. In the end, and at around 4:30 pm, the committee chose Morrison-Foerester (attorneys) and Chanin Capital (accountants).
The discussion in the hallway was quite spirited and informative. Remember that except for us few lurkers, they were all lawyers, CPAs, etc.
>> Why didn't any owners or depositors show up? Possibly they felt that Tuesday's hearing on forming separate committees for owners, depositors, etc. would be successful. In the end, the Trustee selected three owners and/or depositors, but none of them were present, much less active in the fight for standing and ultimate recovery. The opinion was that the vocal owners and depositors could have had BOTH three seats on the basic committee AND the opportunity for successful motions the next day.
>> Did everyone see that the Debtors' filings completely ignored the Unsecured Creditors Committee? How could they do that? The UCC is standard, especially in this type of case. Arrogance pure and simple! The Debtors spent pages detailing how warrantee claimants, depositors, JetComplete subscribers, and even recent employees were now considered unsecured creditors, but didn't even mention that group in the filings.
>> What is with the Debtors' proposed timeline? They want to close the sale in 26 business days from the filing, a period that includes three federal holidays and two extended religious holidays. They also claim to be aggressively marketing the company. Yeah right. Every lawyer in the hallway had a stack of objections in hand. All vowed to make that farce get a serious shake up.
>> Who really believes that Pieper and Mann are disassociated, arms length, buyers? While most didn't have the depth of knowledge yet, they all knew about Roel and his son at ETIRC, Roel and his partner on the Eclipse BoD, the play of Al Mann over the years, the Russians, the supposed Spaniards, the basketball team, etc. The discussions of his forcing the company into bankruptcy just to get the assets at the firs sale were rampant. They all knew of the recent EASA certification, and its greater value in Europe than in the US.
>> Who devised the financing schemes used over the years? Looks like Al Mann put money in, and then took lots of money out over the years. Looks like Roel Pieper had convertible debt, which converted again, and again. Maybe the secured creditors are not so secure. If there were note conversions for some, should it have applied to all? Plus, the supposed $28M offered by EclipseJet was felt to be funny money. Debtors expect to get the $20M in DIP returned, along with $1M in expenses, a $4M break-up fee, and $3M+ in other shenanigans. Offer $28M in cash and list $28M in refunds in the same filing, now that is arrogant and stupid.
>> Who was the "other bidder" that everyone has heard exists? It supposedly is lead by a former Eclipse executive.
In the end, the opinion among the lawyers and accountants waiting in the hallway was that for anyone to get anything, the company must be sold and reorganized, and not allowed to drift into liquidation. There is money in the mix, likely money to recover from the coffers of Al Mann and other Board members, the Russian money, the ETIRC resources, etc.
The only thing needed to unravel the whole mess is time. The Debtors know that and are trying to ram the process through and get out of town (aka the USA) before the law comes a calling. The creditors know that and are trying to slow down the train so that sunshine may prevail.
Best legal opinion we overheard was to petition the Court for a Post Hoc valuation and settlement. Allow the sale to go through, escrow the cash purchase amount (so it isn't useable to immediately pay RP's moving trucks), value the company after the "substantial outside investment" closes, and pay off all of the creditors and owners.
It just might work.
That was from yet another 'friend of the blog', which I'm sure you all will join me in expressing our thanks.
The (now second) item reached me during the 'night' of Wednesday 10th December. I'm not in a position to recommend any course of action, especially to those of you who've hired a lawyer, but this chap seems to offer hope. He's also had contact from several of you, especially readers of the blog, who may have struggled to find a US based firm to take on your case.
A small note for those of you tempted to rely on email. In this spam filled era, it might be an idea to send a fax or make a phone call, as this process is very time critical and you don't want to get lost in the crowd.
Eclipse 10 Percent Deposit Holders Have the Opportunity to Recoup Funds
We would like to thank Shane Price for posting our prior message and giving the motion to appoint a refund creditor's committee the best chance of success possible. The size of this blog's readership was plainly apparent from the many email responses to that message, a number of which spanned the globe. We hope Shane will post this further message.
As most of you know, the Judge was unwilling to appoint a committee of refund deposit holders at the expense of the bankruptcy estate. However, the Judge appeared receptive to our argument that Eclipse held the refunded deposits in trust for the 10% deposit holders. Simply put, our legal theory is that once the deposit holder timely elected a refund of his or her money in response to the June 2008 letter from Eclipse, that money no longer belonged to Eclipse and Eclipse could not spend it. We argue that those funds should not have been spent on operating expenses and should have been segregated and returned. We believe the theory to be a sound one and therefore, we have decided to proceed and see if there is suitable interest on the part of the 10% deposit holders to collectively pool their resources to file a complaint against Eclipse based upon our constructive trust theory and various other claims. At this juncture, we have indications of interest from about 40 refund deposit holders. Further support would be extremely helpful. If you are an individual that made a timely election for a refund of your deposit in response to the June 6, 2008 letter from Vern Raburn, which provided you with that option, yet you did not receive those funds, we would like to present an avenue for you to recoup those funds. Please email me at tmcculloch@gordonrees.com for further information as soon as possible.
Once again, we thank Shane Price for allowing us a voice on his widely read forum.
Sincerely,
Timothy McCulloch/ Senior Counsel
Gordon & Rees LLP
111 W. Monroe Street, Suite 1111
Phoenix, AZ 85003
email: tmcculloch@gordonrees.com
info: my vCard
Main Phone: (602) 794-2460
Direct Phone: (602) 794-2467
Mobile: (602) 568-5291
Fax: (602) 265-4716
And he says nice things about me!
A small note for those of you tempted to rely on email. In this spam filled era, it might be an idea to send a fax or make a phone call, as this process is very time critical and you don't want to get lost in the crowd.
So, if you are a '10% depositor who requested a refund', give Tim a whirl. After all, you've nothing to lose at this stage....
Now, if there are other groups out there who are representing suppliers, staff or anyone else with an interest in EAC, feel free to contact the blog.
eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
I'll be happy to help, if I can. Just remember I live in Ireland (in the GMT zone), and I travel a fair bit....
Shane
07.45 GMT Thursday 11th December 2008
Eclipse 10 Percent Deposit Holders Have the Opportunity to Recoup Funds
We would like to thank Shane Price for posting our prior message and giving the motion to appoint a refund creditor's committee the best chance of success possible. The size of this blog's readership was plainly apparent from the many email responses to that message, a number of which spanned the globe. We hope Shane will post this further message.
As most of you know, the Judge was unwilling to appoint a committee of refund deposit holders at the expense of the bankruptcy estate. However, the Judge appeared receptive to our argument that Eclipse held the refunded deposits in trust for the 10% deposit holders. Simply put, our legal theory is that once the deposit holder timely elected a refund of his or her money in response to the June 2008 letter from Eclipse, that money no longer belonged to Eclipse and Eclipse could not spend it. We argue that those funds should not have been spent on operating expenses and should have been segregated and returned. We believe the theory to be a sound one and therefore, we have decided to proceed and see if there is suitable interest on the part of the 10% deposit holders to collectively pool their resources to file a complaint against Eclipse based upon our constructive trust theory and various other claims. At this juncture, we have indications of interest from about 40 refund deposit holders. Further support would be extremely helpful. If you are an individual that made a timely election for a refund of your deposit in response to the June 6, 2008 letter from Vern Raburn, which provided you with that option, yet you did not receive those funds, we would like to present an avenue for you to recoup those funds. Please email me at tmcculloch@gordonrees.com for further information as soon as possible.
Once again, we thank Shane Price for allowing us a voice on his widely read forum.
Sincerely,
Timothy McCulloch/ Senior Counsel
Gordon & Rees LLP
111 W. Monroe Street, Suite 1111
Phoenix, AZ 85003
email: tmcculloch@gordonrees.com
info: my vCard
Main Phone: (602) 794-2460
Direct Phone: (602) 794-2467
Mobile: (602) 568-5291
Fax: (602) 265-4716
349 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 349 of 349Monsieur Shane
i am glad you understood me ...
as for fixing a problem , you need first to know on the whereabouts of the said problem ...
for this being Irish , French , German or whatever makes no differences ,the faster you know the faster the recovery ...!
if for any foolish pride reason , you let yourself being blinded , it will take you only longer ...
My great-grand-mother died 2 days before being 100 ...
she was very funny in the way that she was always giving one advice :
"Take a glass of your favorite beverage every day beside this , never give too much of a damn about anything ..."
guess they had their own way of living ... way that made them last ...!
and don't worry about being a predator ...
you're not being one !
more an opportunist (in the good meaning of word) which is an other proof you know how to lead your boat ...!
Ps: no need to worry , plenty of time ahead as we can already write-off 2009 ...!
Billy ...
drinking in skull is supposed to be a Viking customs ...
beware that Russians have actually Vikings ancestors (hence their name , Rus used to be a viking tribe who settled there )
for myself , i think that the Wedge's skull would be better placed at about one meter high on the toilets wall ...!
Shane,
Thanks for adding the nice index of blog terminology. (Should EAC be listed under terminal, or terminology? .)
It will be a big help. It took me a while to catch on to "Koolaid".
And regarding Captain Zoom, well, until Stan made specific reference to what must be considered, "the definitive Captain Zoom site", I was utterly lost. I had never heard of his web publication, nor him.
Zoomland, Now In It's Eleventh Year"
But, as BTDT points out, there do seem to be a number of common traits between Zoom and Wedge.
IANA-clinical psychologist, and making no particular connection between any persons dead (headed) or alive; snakes, skunks, vermin, or insects such as cockroaches, etc; and offered for our viewer's enjoyment in a non-commercial playback environment...I offer a link to one of the many interesting pages within the Ousterhout site:
Narcissitstic Personality Disorder
------------------------------
I also offer perhaps the source of the term Captain Zoom, but I'm not sure?
Captain Zoom Movie Fan Site
(I missed this 1995 film- it sounds like many wish they had missed the real life namesake :)
BTW, it sounds like Capt Zoom could really use some good therapy, or at least a good hug. Let's hope he gets both! Really !!
Same with Wedge. Just think if he used those fund raising skills for philanthropic purposes. Really !!
Hi Fred,
Thanks for info on Mr. Rus- sounds like those Vikings got around! And knew how to party!!
Regarding using Wedge's cranial compartment for a beverage dispenser, I suppose it would prove to be inconveniently small- more "shooter" size, than "fishbowl", and better served for other purposes :)
(I wasn't quite sure of the translation of "billy-chèvre". It sounds French- I think "Beautiful Goat" ?, although the younger ladies now just refer to me as "old Goat"*. I would find it more palitable if they used the phrase "Beautiful Old Goat" .)
(*however, they do preface it with the term of endearment, "that").
--------------------------------
It seems like "the bar scene" is more like a facial muscle gym lately- my lecherous learing, and their snarling contempt. (If it takes more muscles to frown than smile, there are some mightly strong 20-something young ladies out there! :)
Ah, the human beast...It used to be I wanted a girl I could take home to meet MY mother. Now I want them to take me home to meet THEIR mother! :(
.)
Shane Price said...
It's not the DOC's that worry me about an older design. It's the avionics. I'm pretty sure that this is what will kill off the (already depressed) market for 'steam gauges' leaving only 'glass cockpit's that can find a buyer.
And thus the market is providing retrofit glass for the older airplanes. They lack nothing in terms of capability compared to the new ones, and often have more capability. You get to choose how to configure your avionics, something no EA500 customer gets to do. There's no reason you need to fly around with old avionics and steam gauges if you don't want to. The less "integrated" the airplane is, the more "future proof" it is, a lesson EA500 owners are going to learn the hard way.
"Anyone know of a twin turbine 6 place, 1,800nm (with reserves) single pilot, prop/jet that costs less than $3 million?"
Shane,
Black Tulip is right on. The Twin Commander 1000 is the only plane I know of that will give you this type of range. Plus 300 kts and 35,000 ft. A very nice one can be had for well under $2 million. No type rating required. They are very docile, super easy to fly, will carry anything you can close the doors on (not legally, of course).
They are just old, and there isn't even one on the market that has been redone that I've been satisfied with. N54GA came close. Most owners redo the panels, paint, interior etc and forget to refinish things like the throttle quadrant, CB panels, knobs and the like so they still look old. I should buy one myself and do it right. I've owned a 690A in the past, and they are a great aircraft.
Shane,
Our Twin Commander 1000 has only a handful of 'steam gauges'. We replaced thirty-one of them with 'glass'...lot's less moving parts and RVSM certified to 35,000 feet.
I can put you in touch with an experienced former owner nearby at the Weston Airport.
Shane Price said...
Thanks for the advice gentlemen, but it think Flyger got the message, which I (foolishly) left out.
Nothing new qualifies and probably never will.
If you insist on twin-turbine, you may be correct, though never is a very strong word. If you are willing to go single, then there will be choices sooner or later, given that the TBM-850 already comes close to your range figure and exceeds in speed.
As to the 441, a -10 can be flown to about 1,500nm comfortably, but not much more than that. What is the significance of 1,800nm - any particular mission?
Let’s see now . . . Bill Richardson supported the “Eclipse” (now in Chapter 11), purchased the “last” Adam jet (an “orphan”), and promoted the “Skinny Chicken” (The “Road Runner” rail system, to take commuters fifty miles, from ABQ to Santa Fe), drove the State of New Mexico from a balanced budget to $500 million into debt . . . and now has been appointed “Secretary of Commerce” by “O’Bama” . . . (is he really Irish?).
Our local mayor, Marty Chavez, was also a big supporter of the “Eclipse”, obviously another “genius” in transportation, is pushing an “$80 million” trolley line for downtown Albuquerque (the City Council doesn’t want it . . . the voters are against it . . . we already have a bus service . . . but in his $1.5 billion “wish list” of stimulus bailout packages, proposed by Barak Hussein O’something, Chavez is pushing for his trolley).
(When the “gadfly” was a little kid, my Mother and I would “catch the trolley” up near Tujunga (pronounced, "Tah-HUNG-gah" . . . it's Spanish, you know), California . . . . ride down into Glendale, to “shop” . . . mostly “window shop” (because of the “War”), . . . watch the man get out to switch the overhead contacts to another cable . . . “lots of sparks” and stuff . . . big deal for a four-year-old . . . and after the big adventure in the city, get back aboard . . . to return the many miles back up the hill, to Tujunga . . . then transfer to the bus, to ride down into Sunland, at about 30 miles per hour. Today, the area is covered by concrete freeways . . . about six or eight lanes wide in both directions, and the “CHP” will pull you over for blocking traffic if your speed falls below 75 mph. ‘Living in New Mexico, in the “505" area code, is like going back a century. OK . . . the “trolley” is only going back sixty years . . . but you all get the point, I’m sure.)
Funny thing about all this: No-one would listen when clear warnings were given . . . and we now have one-party rule. And the predictions of the “little bird” are dead on target (pun intended). So, who you gonna’ blame?
Oh, that’s right . . . I just answered my own question . . . it’s all the fault of the “world economy” . . . how absolutely convenient! . . . and just in time! Whew!!!!
So, to quote the supposed statement of a great economist of the past, “Let them eat cake!” (In all fairness, the lady was “miss-quoted” in the press . . . and lost her head over the matter.)
The point of all this? . . . Who knows, and evidently, who cares! But fasten your seat belts . . . we are in for severe turbulence!
gadfly
(Oh yeh . . . just one other minor point, that I even hesitate to bring up . . . in passing, I saw a strange title on this “blog” . . . “Eclipse Aviation Critic NG” . . . ‘wonder what that means?)
Shane,
This is sorta tonge and cheek but would REALLY work:
How about a 1966 turbo normalized model
C Piper Aztec . It's certified to 33,000 feet and with METCO tanks it has 2,000 mile range and can still carry 6 with some baggage AND is certified FIKI.
'course you gotta deal with that long flight @ 230Kts and a non dilution full face mask pressure oxygen system.....
All for well under $200K with lots of new and replaced gadgets. PLUS its REAL easy to fly…Gets off the ground in less than 1,000 feet.
Flyger,
The less "integrated" the airplane is, the more "future proof" it is, a lesson EA500 owners are going to learn the hard way.
Exactly.
I had a call with one of the unfortunate 60% 'unsecured creditors' about 10 days ago. This point was the one 'unknown unknown' which most worried him, even if he was made an offer by be 'NewCo' to complete the aircraft.
That he had paid just over $1 million NOT to get his hands on.
So, it's fair to say that he was not likely to be paying yet more money out, as he was mature enough to know that his money was lost.
Let's not lose sight of the damage that Wedge and his merry band of con artists and liars have done. EAC lied to people like the man I spoke to, did it often and did it without compunction.
Shane
Flyboymark,
Your comments about the Aztec got me to thinking about el-cheapo (re: non-turbine) solutions to Shane's 1800 nm dilemma.
Looks like various C-340 mods come out to 1400 nm or so, and I read the C-421 could eek out 1800nm. Not sure of the relative prices, but I think an option (AND, a Jet-A solution at that- read the fine print) is this Beech Duke with Centurion engine conversion:
Beech Duke with Diesels
--------------------------------
Regarding the 441, one of my fav's too, here's a nice article:
Conquest
and, a not-so-nice article :(
C-441 inspection
Serving as a good reminder, sometimes newer even if it isn't "better", is better...
--------------------------------
And to keep Mr. Gad happy, I've attached some EAC material, a clandestinely acquired badge photo of Wedge.
Wedge's Badge Photo
(Speaking of universal health care and such, it would appear Wedge did not elect to go with the COBRA dental plan...)
I think an option (AND, a Jet-A solution at that- read the fine print) is this Beech Duke with Centurion engine conversion
Thielert engines, eh? Per the current situation, it might break the budget on Shane's wish list, AND leave him AOG in the bargain.
Would you like to try the groundhog?
DI
Dave I.,
?? But it seemed like such a good idea at the time !?
(how many depositors share that sentiment? :(
...and suppliers, and investors, and employees, and taxpayers...
Let's hope at least some of them have some good news with EAC 2.0 !
(Jalapenos NO, Green Chilies, YES please :)
Flyger,
The less "integrated" the airplane is, the more "future proof" it is, a lesson EA500 owners are going to learn the hard way
This is obviously true, but it is not all good either. There are benefits and liabilities to integration, just as there are benefits and liabilities to modular off-the-shelf.
At any given point in time, there is the optimal amount of integration. As technology reaches maturity, integration becomes almost as future proof, but with a lot more functionality and lower costs.
If you look at the (arguably) best light GA panels on the market - Cirrus Perspective and Phenom Prodigy - they are very integrated cockpits and it will be indeed very hard for owners in the future to replace their avionics with something new. BUT, I think you can argue that there is very high investment protection, because of the out-of-the-bat high levels of function and the safety of numbers because the basic building block is the most popular avionics platform currently on the market.
If Cirrus wanted to have open, well defined interfaces between each box in the avionics solution, to the point they could mix, match, replace in the future, costs would be much higher, function would suffer, etc.
Just because Eclipse went about achieving an integrated cockpit the wrong way, doesn't mean that integrated cockpits are bad. It means Eclipse was bad at it.
Cirrus and Embraer achieved a level of avionics elegance and function that puts the Pilatus PC12 NG with its 300 cockpit buttons and knobs to shame and provide much more function than the Beech, TBM and Mustang implementations of the G1000.
Is the Perspective and Prodigy (somewhat) small amount of proprietary and customized code a "risk" to buyers in terms of future-proofing? Yes. Is that risk worth the additional levels of integration and function? I think so.
In the case of the Eclipse, it is the exact opposite. They gave up future proofing for less function than table stakes in the market today. That is clearly unacceptable.
If Cirrus wanted to have open, well defined interfaces between each box in the avionics solution, to the point they could mix, match, replace in the future, costs would be much higher, function would suffer, etc.
Remember that Cirrii started out having steam gauges & an MFD ( which pretty well describes "open and well defined" ) - and gradually became more and more integrated. I always appreciated ( at the gut level ) that the gps/nav/coms, xpdrs & A/P were separate from the PFD & MFD. When G1000s started showing up everywhere, I was leery that they were "too" integrated by comparison.
Though I agree at some level with your basic premise that "function would suffer" with more mix&match-ability, the Cirrus example shows more than just a little price creep with every advance in integration.
Just because Eclipse went about achieving an integrated cockpit the wrong way, doesn't mean that integrated cockpits are bad. It means Eclipse was bad at it.
In counterpoint, Garmin appears to be very good at it.
Is the Perspective and Prodigy (somewhat) small amount of proprietary and customized code a "risk" to buyers in terms of future-proofing? Yes. Is that risk worth the additional levels of integration and function? I think so.
I read somewhere that Cirrus is totally open to the idea of licensing out the work they did on Perspective to other manufacturers, which mitigates the risk quite a bit. It doesn't hurt at all that it's a technology that looks like it would be compelling for all to have.
Would you like the combo?
DI
Dave I.,
I think I am the one who should have read the fine print- I didn't realize the Centurion V-8 was made Thielert (I thought they only made a 4 cylinder diesel).
Looks like somebody is financing continued operations- think they went BK a few months back.
DI said ... I read somewhere that Cirrus is totally open to the idea of licensing out the work they did on Perspective to other manufacturers
I think they allowed Garmin to license and standardize the "LVL" button on the autopilot to bring a plane to wings level from "any" attitude. I wasn't aware it applied to the other custom work they did.
"Anyone know of a twin turbine 6 place, 1,800nm (with reserves) single pilot, prop/jet that costs less than $3 million?"
A Beech King Air B200 with the Raisbeck Epic package will do this. The 1800 nm range can only be achived by using economy cruise settings at a TAS of 250 kts. At normal cruise it will do 300 kts and has a range/w reserves of 1600 nm. I know this because I have one and have verified these specs.
This better be a wake up call to the US Legacy unions - this is the future face of competition in the air. And to think it was all invented right here in the USA - we only abandoned it in favor of political correctness and union seniority rules. Oh well.
Shane,
If you're happy with 248 kts, an E90 King Air with it's larger 474 gal fuel capacity is an option.
Or you could do what these guys did, when they flew their E90 around the world. Check out the Plane and the Itinerary links.
The Ponceby Flight Around the World
The PC12 has a decent range too, though not 1800 nm
Did I miss it, or is nobody pointing out the obvious?
----
I nominate Bernard Madoff for CEO of EAC 2.0
----
BTW,
Another non-EAC Critic topic that could be discussed concerns the law of diminishing returns and it's affect on VLJs. This could help to explain to Baron and others why current OEMs can't/won't get into the $1M jet bizness. (Hint, it is also related to the cost vs performance topic we have repeatedly discussed)
Does the E500 panel look something like this?
Disruptive Technology
Ohhh , yes ... easybake ...
it is not an EAC-critics related , i appearance ...
the Madoff ... (i don't even know how to call it) was articled around payng old clients with new-client's money ...
that's definitely sounding like something we know ...
just at the time where TRUST is so much needed ...
a kind of wedge comes , and if things had a chance to get better this rat-faced destroy all hopes by revealing that this scam was going on for quite some times ...
sounds more and more like the Merry Band's plot ...!!
disgusting !
where is the rope ?
The poor wedge. He's not even on the list of top crooks for this business cycle.
His silly little manufacturing ponzi scheme couldn't even incinerate 10% of the cash that Maddoff's furnace did.
What a looser :)
Anonymous,
Good one. The dreaded 'blue screen of death'. However, my understanding, from several pilots of the FPJ, is that the screens just went blank. If you had enough time, you did a reboot and (provided your lucky charm was working) they came back up. Best example was from over the Gulf (of Mexico) but the visibility was perfect and the pilot had the skills and experience to put it back on the ground himself. Avio was having an off day, and had refused to reboot....
Fred,
Even the press here (in Ireland...) are describing Madoff as a 'classic Ponzi scheme'.
Maybe we should have a 'roll of dishonor', with the number of billions burned beside each name. Madoff seems pretty good for No 1, with $50 billion. I wonder where Wedge would come, as he only seems to have burned through $3 billion.
It could be a lot worse. Look at what Berliners have to put up with!
That kinda puts things in perspective.
Shane
Isn't one of the basic principles of investing "don't buy anything which you don't understand?"
Freedom :
the right saying is :
Buy with the sounds of guns ...
sell with the sounds of violin ...
but never , never ever buy something you wouldn't explain perfectly well to a 5 y.o. kid without making a fool of yourself !
which amounts more or less to the same ...
don't buy anything you don't understand 101% ! ;-))
Monsieur Shane ...
suddenly a silly idea cross my mind
(please , do not say :"oh , just another one !" ;-)) )
is there any boars in ABQ ?
or did the population there couldn't find any ... so they had to adopt an aluminium bird ? ;-)
about the "ponzi" and the "roll of dishonor"
yes , kinda good idea !
then , again , The Wedge would sue the Blog ...
Even in not blowing-off more than a mere 3 Billions $ , we do not find him any merit ...!
what ungratefulness is that !! ;-)
ok , a bit serious : i fear that the madoff's joke is only the emerged part of the iceberg ...
since every and any control apparatus seems to have failed (too busy making $$ themselves ?) i wonder what the New-year is going to bring along ....
ok , a little explanation about ungratefulness :
when i was in N-Y , at the beginning , it was some kind of customs , at the coffee machine , to talk (read show-off) about the amount of the contract negotiated the day before ...
then the subject of talk (read the same as above) became how much one made out of those contracts ... (this is where i felt it was time to go , with silly games you never know where it's end ...)
i wonder IF the subject now is How much one can waste , burn , incinerate ...
kid of :
hi joe ! yesterday i blew-up 5B$ ...
hi bart , you little player ...! yesterday , i wasted twice that much before lunch ...
;-))
ps: it is only funny for the ones who won't pay or didn't loose !
This better be a wake up call to the US Legacy unions - this is the future face of competition in the air.
Having been in aviation for 36 years, I don't EVER remember the airlines treating us that way. THAT's why the unions are there, to make sure we're compensated, not for the time when one is sitting on the tarmac, but when in the air...our "worth" goes up tremendously
Fred,
you were descibing a situation where the customers had a lot of money. A certain loss was excepted.
In case of EAC there was no control. the wedge was or became a ponzi gamer - like Madoff.
His simple luck was RP who needed an EASA cert and tries to be on the right side of the line.
But even Ken was not aware/did not want to accept that the wedge's poor business attitude would endanger his own investment.
Just hope and throwing good money after bad money?
Perhaps Madoff wasn't cool enough to copy the EAC's CH11 & sec. 363 "ETRIC" plus DIP and stalking horse....
Were are the limits?
Julius
While we are chatting about economic concepts, I must say that I found the concept of the stock market punishing a company like GE when they failed to increase their 17% profit margin by another 10% a strong warning sign.
If a solid production company in a mature industry is making 17% profit clear, selling to a customer who can't make a dime with that product (an airline), then the expectation that you can squeeze this profit margin to 18% is certainly not future proof.
oh , freedom ...
i kneel in front of your wisdom ! ;-)
GE is the PERFECT example of what went wrong ...
if only peoples could make the relation between getting more and more profits from investments and paying less and less interests for their credits ...
the world would be a safer place ,90% crooks would vanish overnight and politicians wouldn't be able to claim so much BS ...
unfortunately , we are imperfect ...! (which is, in itself , a big chunk of the fun ...)
Guten Tag , Herr Julius !
i think you are mistaken ...
the ones who got caught in Madoff's scam didn't have any money (for the biggest part of them)
they played with other people's money ...
which is already more like the ABQ farce !
this is a medium term effect of the politic consisting in inflating the monetary masses without any restraints AKA "ultra liberalism" (thanks Mr Greenspan.bubbles ) peoples faced the inflation ... then come the time for craziness ... then comes the times for the final bill = every body gather for a shelter ...!
and even if you spread the market with a 3 feet thick blanket of banknotes , it doesn't work ...
(Btw : where is helicopter-ben , Now?)
this is where some are going to remember the most efficient engine of any economic system is the TRUST one can have in it !
with guys like madoff and The Wedge , it would make better sens to jump directly to deflation ...!!!
just a shame he (mad-off) didn't think about buying himself through a good 363 ...
"your Honor , in the interest of WS , allow me to write-off 50B$ in buying myself with what i have on me now ...!!
pathetic ...!!
Shane,
The Twin Commander 1000 has 1,800 nm range at maximum cruise power. Scroll down to 'Cruising Ranges' in this link:
Twin Commander Performance
In 1983 a stock Twin Commander 1000, without additional fuel tanks, set an around-the-world speed record for a turboprop aircraft between 3,000 and 6,000 kg takeoff weight. The record still stands. See the last entry in this link:
FAI Records
Fred,
thank you for your hint - Madoff
actually prefered the brokers not the final customers.
BTW: CNN-Money put Greenspan to zeroes-league like the former bosses of Countrywide, Lehman...
and not to the heroes. The old man should retire.
Julius
yes , julius ...
madoff was not known by common investors ...
so whatever the TV or official version is going to say , the reputation of the guy (which is the official theory that he used his rep. to lure investors) was known mainly by a very few ...
an other example of short term replaced by even-shorter-term ...
this is hilarious , Planes or Finances works about the same ...
when you look at basics ,
to pay some juicy returns , it has to come from either :
1°)of bigger profits and so from a BETTER process of REAL richness creation ...
(which is one the relation with "productivity" ...)
2°) PURE BS (money printing) or PURE illusion ( we are the best " they sweat , we consume !")
one can last for quite some times ...
the other = NEVER ! as soon as peoples want real richness , the card-castle collapse ...
exactly like with the FPJ , some competitor are probably going to fly tomorrow ...
the FPJ ???
difference : some tried to re-invent the wheel , some didn't
that is the "fun" of basics , you don't need to be a rocket-scientist or a Nobel-prize to understand that if your starting-point is wrong , your result might be correct but it will be ONLY a strike of luck !
BT,
That Commander 1000 has pretty impressive performance, esp SE initial climb of 900+ fpm!
I think numberous bloggers have pointed out it's virtues recently. I think Wedge has one too. (Boy, I almost had virtue and Wedge in the same sentence! :)
A couple of notable items from the plan-view of all the models; the leading edge is straight, while the trailing edge sweeps forward, seemingly an effective forward sweep, as Gadfly notes regarding Eclipse (to a lesser degree with the EA-500, I think. I can understand the logic of this, but in practice, I think it works out fine with the Eclipse- maybe some operators will comment?). And, the horizontal tail is pronouncedly tapered, both leading and trailing edge. (At first I though, “aha- that must be a witch on landing”, but surfing around for stall pattern visualizations, it would seem that this is indeed should be the shape of preference, a bit surprised more horizontals don't have this shape).
Stall Patterns
Credit where credit is due:
It was Stan that first pointed out on the blog the virtual forward sweep of the wings on the E500 . . . putting to rest the first impression that the wings are straight (which they are not).
gadfly
Hi Gadfly,
I had been mildly puzzled the seeming contradiction of "forward sweep" (ah, and many other things- here; most Wedganomics, seems like that has been pretty well resolved with EAC in BK though- kind of like Cold Fusion- if it's too good to be true, then... :)
As I sat here pondering it, something dawned on me: the wings are tapered, such that the center of lift does indeed go forward as one goes outboard, but the center of lift is never in front of the main spar, at any point along the span, so it should not be subject to divergent flutter forces.
Now that THAT mystery is solved: I have another one- when an airplane stalls, is it because:
The main wing looses lift first- (imagine: the airplane pivots around the horizontal tail)
-OR-
The horizontal tail looses "lift", actually, down force, first
(imagine: the airplane pivots around the wing)
---------------------------------
Pilot camp says the main wing looses lift first, arm-chair aero guys say it is because the horizontal tail looses lift first.
I have to admit, I've seen a lot of main wings tufted, but never seen the bottom side of a horizontal tail tufted.
(Maybe, because the stall pattern is more critical around the ailerons, than the elevators ???)
Anyone??
Thanks.
Goat
Let’s not get too deep, here. But let’s discuss something about the wing, itself.
A perfect wing would be completely rigid under all conditions, and produce equal lift along the entire length. But we know enough about structure, and various flight conditions, that a “practical” wing is a bundle of compromises.
For structural purposes, a wing is tapered.
For lift purposes, the airfoil is designed for the speeds at which the wing will move through the air.
For stability, a variety of conditions will dictate the “plan view”, the size, and the angle of attack.
For low-speed stability, it’s good to move the wing tips forward. But then the wings must be very rigid to avoid the twist of a weaker wing . . . which would increase the angle of attack at the tips, making the aircraft unstaple in high-rate turns.
For “low drag”, its good to keep the wings short . . . but this gives up low-speed stability.
Many other considerations should be in this list, but to cut to the chase:
“Jiro Horikoshi” (1904-1982) designed the wings of the Mitsubishi A6M with what’s known as “wash out” at the wing tips, a built-in decrease in angle of attack (pitch), to insure that the “tips” were the last thing to stall, in a tight/low speed turn. The Americans discovered the secret when they captured a near perfect “Zero” that had landed in a bog on an Aleutian island. Partly with this “new” knowledge, the F6F was built specifically to battle against the “Zero”.
Mr. Horikoshi had to design a rigid wing on his plane, for land and shipboard use (with severe landings in mind), “weapons” hung under the wings, a limited size powerplant, . . . a structure that must withstand 12.6 G’s (fortunately, the Japanese had just developed the new alloy, known today as 7075 aluminum), and above all, out-maneuver every other aircraft in the world. Beginning in late 1937, the design and development moved ahead, with first flight in 1939, and into service in 1940 . . . the Japanese year, 2600, using the last two digits for the name, or “Zero” for short.
Most jets make a compromise, that assures a “wash out” at the wing tips, by allowing the wings to flex, because of their “sweep back” . . . and they gain in not requiring the extra weight to produce a “stiff” wing. This is one of those beautiful compromises that solves a number of problems.
But, for reasons that remain a mystery to me, the “Eclipse” chose a “near straight” wing, giving it low speed maneuverability, to be sure, but requiring a rigid and heavy wing. (Shades of the Hansa Jet a few decades back.)
This discussion could fill a book, but this should be enough to stir up further study.
gadfly
(For what it’s worth, a “fellow blogger” sent me an email that confirms the “above”, about wing-root stall (‘Must come first, etc.) just as I was finishing the final lines.)
Stiff Wings
Gad -
Take a look at the PC-12 planform and you will see a similarity in Oliver Masefield's designs.
Conceptually a straight rectangular spar box is easier to construct, provides a good anchor point for the punch-through gear struts, and the internal fuel has a "near vertical" influence on the CG.
I don't recall if there is wash-out, or what the aero effect the tip tanks contribute at high alpha ... but the wing fillets do contribute to root stall initiation.
Re the Twin Commander 1000 and Conquest II, this is the best kept secret in GA aviation. The Garret TPE-331-10 are sooooo much more fuel efficient and have a a much higher TBO (5000 vs 3000-3600) than the PWC PT6s.
That is why the Conquest II and Commander kick the pants off any PT6 equipped twin turboprob of comparable size. The BE-2000 might as well be going backwards.
What puzzles me, is why the PT6 enjoyed more market success. With its complicated reverse flow, low TBO, poor fuel specifics, it should have been made extinct by the 331. But marketing, and support, I guess, trump technical merit.
The only thing about the 331 that is significantly worse than the PT6 is noise. Boy do those b$@#s whine. Deafening on the ramp even at idle.
Regardless, I love those engines. Straight flow, 5000 TBO, you actually get a not insignificant amount of jet exhaust thrust, great fuel specifics, and even the whine is a plus - no one will be near the plane with the engines running.
Now, as for the cabin of the Conquest and all the other Cessna cabin-class twins, well - it sucks. There is no way to effectively use the volume with that door 2/3 of the way in the cabin. The Mohave/Cheyenne, the King Airs, etc, all have a much better layout.
Zed
With the prop chewing through clean air, the “Swiss Army Knife” of aviation looks ‘just about the best design possible . . . the very best of all compromises, from the standpoint of aircraft engineering (although, for some . . . the “un-knowing” . . . it might not be the most beautiful thing to behold). But for driving the thing around the sky, and carrying a load safely, what’s not to like?!
From the few pictures I’ve seen, it appears that the wings have a long and gentle “wash out” from root to tip. And although probably a “straight/tapered wing”, there is just enough sweep in the leading edge to give great stability in “yaw” (coupled with the slight “toe in” of the winglets . . . think “toe-in” on the front wheels of your car).
But I could display my ignorance very quickly, if I were to attempt to explain the forces that delay stall at the tips because of the winglets . . . I’m still in the study mode on that one. For my own benefit, I can explain it to myself . . . and for the moment, that will need to suffice.
gadfly
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Paris_Air_Show_2007-06-24_n10.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement_aircraft.jpg
Ahem - look where Ken's airplane is going.
Hi Gadfly,
I don't know much about winglets either- wingnuts are up my alley...
But, the Airbus "thingees" on the wingtip always struck me as "end plates", rather than winglets. I'm not sure if that is correct or not.
Surfing around for end plates rather than winglets, I came across this article, from 2004, about a flight test on a C-130A.
Besides winning awards for the ugliest flight test airplane ever, I think the results were notable- surprisingly so with respect to aileron performance, as you opined.
"The addition of these unique tip tanks to the C-130A increased lift by 24% near the wing tip and increased the maximum lift generated by the aircraft during stall by over 30%. Due to their end plating effects, they effectively increased the aspect ratio of the wing, reduced the induced drag and generated more local span wise lift. The addition of the tip tanks changed the handling qualities only slightly and a very positive result was an increase in the aileron's effectiveness by 67%".
That sounds great !!
"Flying qualities remained within limitations set by military standards, and overall the flight test program was a complete success."
A little offputing disclaimer, but I'll go with the "changed handling qualities only slightly" from above :)
(See page 82 for the quote and a picture of these “unique”/butt ugly tip tanks- fitting for a C-130... :).
I'm not sure of the net effect of winglets, however- I think they specifically reduce drag, but maybe since they are “half an end plate”, they do indeed increase aileron effectiveness too.
NCState, D.C.Phillips, MS Thesis-C130 tip tanks
Orville,
Ken may not be going to ABQ of his own 'free will'.
I'm told, in such a manner as to believe it, that there are unresolved matters between The Cardinal and his Church sorry, Supplier.
The spirit moves the faithful in mysterious ways. Perhaps our Ken has had a Pauline conversion...
We must allow time for the penitent to rediscover grace, at the original fountain of all knowledge that is EAC.
OK Shane, enough with the 'religious' theme, the poor readership is confused enough without you rambling on.
Gadfly,
While no expert myself, I'm learning lots about wing tip vortices over the past few months. Can I suggest that a study of the manner in which eagles control the 'bleed air' with their tip feathers has resulted directly in the current fashion for blended winglets?
What I'm not so certain about is their effect on ultimate stall performance. My gut tells me the winglets will tend to delay the onset of normal inputs that trigger the pilots natural 'stall warning' in an unpredictable manner. I know that stick shakers and audibles will be giving it loads as the limits approach and I'm quite sure the designers will have fluid dynamics to back up their assumptions.
However, it seems to me that we rely far too heavily on these technologies and add layer after layer of them, tending to forget what the original plan was in the first place.
To get from A to B and back again, more or less in one piece.
Shane
The battle rages this way and that . . . we struggle to understand why the designers of the “little bird” chose what they did, and we criticize their design . . . and rightly so. It is mostly based on “best guesses”, tainted by personal ambitions, greed, egos, and a multitude of other factors. To some, the bird is beautiful . . . to others, it’s lacking. ‘Like my neurosurgeon friend used to say, “Some dogs like Alpo . . . some don’t!”
But it’s interesting to note that the “playing field” of physical principles hasn’t changed “one whit”, since the creation. Plug in the formulas . . . do the math . . . do the empirical testing . . . take it to the extremes of human understanding. When you wake up tomorrow, the basic rules will remain constant. Had Moses worked in Egypt on an aircraft, in some “wind tunnel” under a pyramid, built by Ramesses II, (before he killed an Egyptian), he would have encountered precisely the same laws of physics. If Abram (later Abraham) had been instructed in aerodynamics and metallurgy (well, he was instructed in metallurgy, and metal oxides . . . we have the evidence of his “school class rooms” . . . in four thousand years, the “colors” in the artwork is still un-faded by time), in “UR” of the Chaldee’s, he would have had the same laws of physics . . . as he “pressed into his clay tablet” his cuneiform lessons.
(Oh, did I mention . . . Moses fled from Egypt to the “copper mines” for a time, where huge furnaces took advantage of thermodynamics, “up drafts” . . . sounds sort of like aerodynamics to me . . . and prevailing winds, to create the tremendous heat necessary to “smelt” copper, and make instruments . . . even for surgery . . . that we have yet to understand . . . How does one make a knife of copper, that can be used in surgery, and “hold an edge”? But “we’re smart . . . no big deal, the answer is “right around the corner, maybe.)
Am I kidding? . . . No! Do the homework . . . and you will be amazed at what you find. But flying? . . . No, but the fact remains that all of the physical properties haven’t changed the slightest in four thousand years . . . in fact, the basic laws go back maybe 13.5 billion years, at least (but who’s counting?). Sir Fred Hoyle, an “atheist”, resented the date, and called it the “Big Bang” . . . he’s dead, you know.
So, “What’s up, Doc?” . . . or “What’s new?” Nothing, really.
What do we have to work with?:
Physical laws . . . same old, same old!
Human nature . . . same old, same old!
Science? . . . you’d be most surprised what little has changed . . . only the applications have much changed. We, as humans, seem to have a skill of taking our knowledge of things, just beyond what we have wisdom to control.
But all the old rules . . . physics, human nature, etc., . . . they are still with us, basically unchanged.
What’s the point of all this? If the discussion concerning the merits of the Eclipse, etc., and all these other attempts to produce the one “jet/aircraft to supercede all other aircraft” fails to bring into the picture some, or all of these other factors, you will not get where you think you’re heading.
The “Eclipse” is a valuable lesson . . . do not underestimate what it has contributed to aviation. It didn’t break through anything new . . . virtually everything it did was already known, “in Spades”. But what it has done, is condense human nature and technology into one big ball of wax . . . well, not really all that big, and maybe not “wax”, but at least into one condensed ball of “goo” (is that a word? . . . it should be!).
It has focused our attention on what happens when all this “stuff” comes together, and “almost” achieves, what we call in the New Mexico scientific community, “Critical Mass” (or “Mess”, depending on your personal opinion).
Well, there it is for the “gadfly” . . . a candid opinion.
gadfly
(And don’t forget: The laws of physics . . . and aerodynamics remain unchanged, no matter what the Bankruptcy Court may decide. Ain’t that great?)
(And, “goat”, the first time I saw a C130, I had parked my car in the UAL parking lot, and was taking the company bus down to the ORD terminal . . . and I saw a C130, which appeared to be taxiing in a taxiway along the eastern edge of “14R”. To my amazement, the thing lifted into the air, barely making a sound. Remember, back in those ancient days, there were no “fan jets”, and everything was ear-splitting. The year? . . . about 1963 . . . and I had the satisfaction, that many of my Dad’s inventions were part and soul of that beautiful aircraft.)
(Shane . . . I'm trying my best, to figure out what the "stall warning" sounds like, on an eagle . . . Bald or otherwise . . . but I'm sure it's worth a "look/see" or "hear/hear".)
Shane said,
Maybe we should have a 'roll of dishonor'....
May I suggest that we call it the "wall of shame?" We actually had one in the SP10 QA receiving inspection area. The wall of shame was for all the buyers with parts that had unresolved issues. Naturally, there was a lot of crap on the wall for a good long time.
And those listed on the Wall of Shame should include:
My ex-wife
Casey Anthony
Susan Smith
Michael Jackson
Wedge
'Peggie Sue' Bilson
Ken Lay
Jeffrey Skilling
Andrew Fastow, Enron CFO
EVERYONE from Arthur Anderson
Bernie Ebbers
Ivan Boesky
Michael Milken
Martha Stewart
Michael "Brownie" Brown, former Director of FEMA
Bernie Madoff
Richard Fuld, Lehman Bros. CEO
Captain Zoom
O.J. Simpson
Hannibal Lecter
Satan
Anyone I forgot to include?
e.d.t.
Shane said ... My gut tells me the winglets will tend to delay the onset of normal inputs that trigger the pilots natural 'stall warning' .... I know that stick shakers and audibles will be giving it loads as the limits approach ....
However, it seems to me that we rely far too heavily on these technologies and add layer after layer of them, tending to forget what the original plan was in the first place.
Shane, when it counts (e.g. turn from base to final, or buzzing the girlfriend's house) pilots "natural" stall warning/reaction is to die, even on barn door winged planes like cubs and 172s.
No one designing a modern high performance airplane today is counting on a pilots "natural" stall warning/reactions. Wing twist, rudder limiters, FBW control law, etc, etc, are all there to engineer the pilot out of the stall, by engineering the stall out of the airframe.
This romantic and quaint notion that by designing wings with lots of progressive buffet and training pilots to recognize and pull out of a stall is just that - romantic. It works great in training and flight tests - in the real world, when it counts, the stall is unexpected and death quickly follows.
For the non-pilots, analogy is teaching young drivers to pump the breaks to avoid a skid on wet pavement or teaching them to steer against a skid in a turn. All very cool in the classroom. In the real world when something jump on the driver's path on a wet road, it is a panic slam on the brakes and a sliding, out of control crash or in a a turn it is a spinning crash on the outside of the turn.
Only solution? Anti-lock brakes and electronic stability control. ESC has reduced single vehicle fatal accidents by over 50% in some cars no car without it can get 5 starts in the IIHS program anymore.
So in designing the very aggressive wing on the 787 including the blended winglets, Boeing is certainly paying no attention to a pilot's "natural" stall recognition and warnings. That plane simply not designed to allow that wing to stall.
Welcome to the 21st century wing.
edt
If you knew me, like I know me, you would not speak to me in polite company. It's best to allow folks to add their own names to the "honor roll", or the roll of "dishonor" that you suggest.
Time has a way of sorting out all this sort of thing . . . in this case, patience is required. There's nothing to be gained, otherwise.
gadfly
(And you won't have to keep looking over your shoulder, to see who is coming up on you!)
Anyone I forgot to include?
e.d.t.
Yes. The f$@#ers from GM, F, Chrysler who caused a backlash against Biz Av by their utter lack of judgment and inability to explain the value of BizAv as a business tool.
The UAW and IAM presidents for forcing B, F, GM, etc to send more and more manufacturing abroad.
"MY" ex-wife. (Just joking, we are best friends and I'd do anything for her, short of re-marrying her ;)
I don't think Vern should be on the list. Guy had a GA dream. Brought a ton of money to GA. Delivered 250+ certified jets under 6,000 lbs. Had some unrealistic expectations, had poor execution syndrome and poor communications syndrome. But at least he did what 99.999% of people in the world never do. He tried to turn his vision into reality. In my book any individual that does that, deserve praise, unless they murder someone or molest a child or take my money ;)
Can I suggest that a study of the manner in which eagles control the 'bleed air' with their tip feathers has resulted directly in the current fashion for blended winglets?
Ahem, 'bleed air' - in the aviation context - is something entirely different ( think "sooting at FL410" - though I know what you mean ).
What I'm not so certain about is their effect on ultimate stall performance.
I'm sure it's adverse, when stalling inverted. Please forgive me if I decline to test that hypothesis on my own.
My curiosity about winglets extends primarily to propellers. Since the tip speed of memorably loud props is supersonic, wouldn't a "proplet" allow a given amount of thrust from a smaller diameter ( and thus with a lower tip speed ) prop - both reducing noise substantially, and possibly realizing similar efficiency gains to their non-rotating brethren?
Has this been tried? Is it beyond the limits of the materials or manufacturing? Being of the "fixed-prop-but-looking" persuasion, I haven't thought about it too much, but I've always wondered...
There are some scarily knowledgeable folks on this blog. Just curious if it's been tried or pondered ( or utterly discredited, with a body count to boot ) in aviation circles.
Would you like fries with that?
DI
The "winglet" prop has been tried. Hartzell has several available for retrofit. It may improve the performance some, but not a great deal,
On the matter of wing sweep, thin sectioned airfoils are advantageous for high speed airplanes. The problem, as with the earlly Lears, and present Eclipse is that there is no room for fuel or high-lift devices at low speed. The addition of tip tanks does not aid in low speed stability and can be critical for lateral stability if one tank does not feed. Another way to get an "aerodynamic thin" wing is to sweep the wing. The chordwise airflow "sees" a thin sectioned-wing because of the sweep. There is also ample room for in-wing fuel, leading edge flaps, and sophisticated Fowler flaps. The sweep does increase the tendency for Dutch roll, so yaw dampners are a must. Early examples of both would be the Lear 23, 24, amd 25s which have a horrible accident record, and the Falcon 20 and follow-on Falcon series which have had an exemplary safety record.
Thanks, Ya.
I've seen Q-tips - they're not quite what I was thinking of. For starters, the tips are bent backward, which is the opposite of conventional winglet design, which would put the extension facing forward. A primary objective would be reducing prop diameter ( and speed ) for a given amount of thrust. Q-tips strike me as being simpler and considerably less effective - more like a turned-down wingtip - though it's reasonable to conclude that they reduce tip vortices to some degree.
DI
Hi Dave I.
Well, regarding those proplets...
Boeing has some "raked wingtips", and I think the "scimitar" propeller sort of mimics this- although maybe the principle benefit is the "swept" leading edge.
ASM- and Dave I.
(I was ready to post this twice- I'm going to hurry up this time!):
thanks for your information regarding Hartzell. Coincidently, just this weekend I was giving a friend and his son a walking tour of the local GA airport, and we came across a Twin Commanche- I thought it had had a "gear up", as the prop tips were bent back 90 degrees. But, I couldn't find any scrape marks on the belly. Looking more closely, the blade tips were uniformly shaped- about the last inch bent back- not a gentle sweep, but about 1 inch 90 degree straight back, then maybe a 3/4 inch radius. Metal prop, not composite- weird. I have to admit, it looked like a "home brewed" special, but it must have been a factory prop due to heat treat, etc. Must have been one of those Hartzell jobs. (Looked pretty crude, I must say).
Now that I know what that dang thing was...
"Q-tip propeller blades are formed by bending the tip section of the blade 90° toward the face side. Aerodynamic improvements include a reduced diameter and decreased tip speeds. This results in quieter operation and reduced tip vortices. The 90° bend reduces the vortices that, on traditional blades, pick up debris that can contact the blades and cause nicks, gouges and scratches".
Hartzell Q-tip
Engaging the way-back machine, it does seem like the "Q" in q-tip came from quiet- I don't know how well it worked though.
baron95, you are right about the Commander. I have an 840 with -10's and 300 kts on 67 gal is better than most. One reason the Pratt was favored over the Garrett was the cost of hots and OH. But now they are almost dead even which make the Garrett way more efficient. I like the noise, I am never outside so I never hear it. I get 1800 nm with 4 soles and bags. All for 1mm.
Ken at the confessional....
"Forgive me Father for I have sinned. It has been more than one year since my last confession"
"Tell me son, what are your sins?"
Father, I have lied to people and deceived them into thinking that EAC is financially sound. I have caused many new pilots to believe the aircraft is safe. I may have endangered hundreds of people by encouraging them to purchase a product that may ultimately kill them!"
"What are your other sins my son? Have you committed adultery? Have you coveted the wife of another? Have you committed any Cardinal sins?"
"That's about it Father. Can't think of anything else. Of course if anyone dies because of my shilling for EAC that could be a real biggie sin I suppose."
"For penance say 10 Hail Marys and 5 Our Fathers. In addition you must confess your sins publicly through the Eclipse Critic Blog Site. Finally you must purchase Shane a pint of Guinness! I further recommend you get down on your knees and Praise the Lord upon each successful landing! And from now until your eternal soul enters into God's heavenly abode you shall refer to Vern Raburn as The Wedge!"
Per our little discussion on future proof cockpit designs, here it is taking it to the extreme.
New cockpit of C5-Galaxy expected to remain in service through 2040.
First C5-M delivered to operational unit this past week. 30% better runway performance due to re-engining, and glass cockipit with FMS to boot ;)
this is an explaniation of why winglets help airplanes.
This is from the justification for the new winglet designed for the Aerostar.
How Winglets Work
A winglet is a near vertical extension of the wing tips.
The upward angle (or cant) of the winglet, its outward angle (or toe), as well as its size and shape are critical for correct performance, and unique in each application.
The vortex which rotates around from below the wing strikes the cambered surface of the winglet, generating a force that angles inward and forward, similar to a sailboat sailing close to the wind.
The winglet converts some of the otherwise wasted energy in the wing tip vortex to thrust.
more snippits from the same powerpoint.
in the aerostar they will help increase lift especially when slower and loaded heavily as in initial climb. they probably will no increase the druise speed
more info:
Winglets
Properly designed Winglets:
1. Increase the lift generated at the wingtip
2. Reduce the lift-induced drag caused by wing tip vortices.
3. Improve the lift-to-drag ratio (L/D) which increases range and fuel efficiency.
US Air Force studies indicate that: A given improvement in lift to drag ratio correlates directly with an improvement in fuel efficiency.
Winglet History
The Winglet concept is not new, dating back to 1897.
After the cost of jet fuel increased in the 1973 oil crisis, the concept of winglets as a fuel saving aid was further developed by Richard Whitcomb, an engineer at NASA's Langley Research Center.
My previous post goes here.
A characteristic of the garretts on the Aerocommander from a friend of mine that owned MU2s.
you can easily kill yourself if you try to take off at ground Idle RPM which is about 90%. if you are on take off and suddenly discover that you are at ground RPM (temps out of sight and low thrust) and then push the RPM suddenly up to flight RPM the airplane will stop instantly. this is caused by the props going into flat pitch in order for them to speed up. this causes them to be hugh airbrakes and stop the airplane in the air. he forgot once and luckily remembered to very slowly increase the RPM so the thrust did not go to 0 while the RPM was increasing.
He really liked the garretts and found the MU2 to be a great airplane but you had to fly it by the numbers and pay attnetion to the quirks.
his ideal next airplane is also the 690 or 1000 with -10 engines
Winglets...
If they are so dandy, why don't 777's have them (Boeings next-to-newest wing).
But then, 737's have had them added (but Navy P-8 derivative has raked wingtips), and lately 757's and 767's. 747-400 has winglets, 747-8 will have raked wingtips. (I wonder why the USAF tankers don't have any wingtip contraptions?)
767 Winglets
YMMV, but from Wikipedia,
"Large winglets are mainly useful for short-distance flights, where the benefit in climb performance is more important. Raked wingtips are now preferred over small winglets for long-distance flights where cruise performance is more important...Boeing's short-range 787-3 design currently calls for winglets, instead of the raked wingtips featured on all other 787 variants".
(note: it does seem that either winglets, or raked wingtips, are preferable over no "wing tip devices...).
Gadfly,
"(Competition glider pilots install winglets for range, and) Many non-competition pilots installed them for the handling benefits, including increased roll rate and roll authority"
Wikipedia Wingtip Devices
---------------------------------
Given F-15's don't have winglets, made me pause, and reckon there must be some supersonic penalty. Then I reflected upon Dave I's question about "proplets"- maybe since the prop tip can be supersonic, the same logic (whatever it is) applies.
(Extra cheeeeeese pleeeeeeze :)
from AVWEB this morning....
"ECLIPSE GRANTED CHAPTER 11: TV REPORT
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1278-full.html#199406)
An Albuquerque television station is reporting
(http://www.krqe.com/dpp/news/business/business_krqe_eclipse_gets_ch11_200812151848_rev1)
that Eclipse Aviation's application for Chapter 11 bankruptcy
protection was approved by a Delaware court on Monday and that there
is competition for Roel Pieper's bid to take over the company through
a Luxembourg subsidiary of his company, ETIRC. KRQE does not identify
the second potential purchaser for the company, which filed for
Chapter 11 on Nov. 25. In the filing, the company proposed that it
essentially sell itself to Pieper's company and more recent reports
say the proposed price is $198 million, roughly 20 percent of the
money owed investors, suppliers and customers. Eclipse did not
immediately return a voice message left Tuesday afternoon. According
to the TV report, the sale must be completed by Jan. 12 or the court
could order the company liquidated. Meanwhile, as the high-stakes drama that could determine their own futures plays out in the
courtroom and boardroom, Eclipse employees are focusing on helping
those less fortunate during the holiday season."
I would propose that another buyer could be very successful if they make certain deals with say, the current owners and position-holders, and base their transaction on parity with the Pieper deal regarding the other creditors.
I think throwing sand in the face of the customers was the dumbest (yet most trnasparentl and honest) move yet. Finally, we are facing the true problem - Pieper (and his buddies before him) really don't understand the customer perspective. This comes from an apparent lack of caring.
Airtaxi ...
first , when you go to withdraw cash from a cash-dispenser , do you care about the machine's state of mind ?
up to now , the victims have been nothing but this : good old Atm ... without need for pin code !
second : the link = a Local TV report that a newspaper report that the cleaning-lady of the court has heard someone in the toilets talking about EAC ...
off-course , i am exaggerating , but it sounds like a "good old PR" from EAC in the good days .... a little bit of truth (may be) salted with lots of half-truth and few lies ...!
=
an other buyer ? is there someone crazy enough ??? (but it serve RP interests of pushing away all others ...)
Deal must be done on the 12/1 , i thought Judge were grown-up enough to make their own decision ? (curiously , it is what RP claimed before ...)
don't get me wrong ...
Grown-up Judges = i do not know about USA , but the few BK proceeding i've seen in France and Germany :
if the CEO of a failed business go to see a BK judge telling him
"a) I want to buy back the whole thing
b)i want it to be finished for this date XXX
that would probably the best way to have the Judge answering :
"shut it up ! i am the one who decide here !"
Fred,
I agree with your comment. I just cannot imagine anyone wanting this bag of problems.
Some fall for the simple idea that $3B is being purchased for $X millions. For some, this seems like a deal.
But, you are right, seems like some BS sprinkled with rumor.
I do believe IF someone wanted this pack of problems, they should start by making a deal with the owners and position-holders.
A realistic deal might involve a price increase, planes delivered finished in the most recent config, a nice warrantee.
At least you keep some orders, and you have a customer base on your side.
From there, you can make deals with creditors to move ahead. Without this, I do not see how any supplier thinks there is a future... any future.
ATM said …
I would propose that another buyer could be very successful if they make certain deals with say, the current owners and position-holders, and base their transaction on parity with the Pieper deal regarding the other creditors.
Unfortunately the current owners and position holders are part of a BIG unsecured group in line behind $600M in secured debt.
The Debtor must recommend, and the Court will almost certainly approve the responsive bid with the greatest value and the best business plan going forward.
Cash is king ... and if someone comes in with a comparable bid that is predominantly cash (versus stock in the Stalking Horse) they could take it.
Since EAC/eTrick/et al have already proven that they can only run the company into the dirt, virtually any credible business plan will get decent play.
It is also likely that the valuation of EAC will drop through the due diligence investigation of the Debtor and the two creditor committees, making the eTrick $198M bid a formidable obstacle to overcome.
Conversely, there is a possibility that the value of the eTrick stock offering will be diminished, making their proposed $198M something lower.
The likelihood that position holders get anything except a priority slot to re-purchase their airplane at some new TBD price is doubtful. The Likelihood that other unsecured creditors get even a penny on the dollar is more doubtful.
About the only ones who could see something positive at this point are the owners if eTrick does continue operations, and of course eTrick when EclipseJet files Chapter 7 in 2009.
Between Independence Day and Labor Day for those taking wagers.
That course has the Ch-11 shafting all of the unsecured debt, and the Ch-7 shafting all of the note holders.
Gad, Goat, ATM, others –
The engineer in me wants to take the winglet discussion and run with it.
However, the pragmatist in me wants to critique EAC ( pronounced “E Yack” ) before we inaugurate the EclipseJet Critic Blog.
If anyone wants to discuss winglets, circulation theory, alpha, beta, theta, epsilon, wing root bending moment, etc. until our ears smoke like Eclipse 500 engines, just drop me a line at zed.lastletter@gmail.com and we can go crazy off channel.
Zed
Beedriver opined,
"...you can easily kill yourself if you try to take off at ground Idle RPM which is about 90%."
Not so, you have heard a myth. Numerous people have inadvertently taken off with the condition lever set at low RPM (96%) versus high RPM (100%). It just requires a longer takeoff run. Keep in mind that the engine spends most of its life in cruise flight at low RPM.
Ground idle and flight idle are settings of the power lever, not the condition lever. It would not be possible to do more than taxi the aircraft at ground idle, much less accelerate for takeoff.
Fred, ATM, Zed,
I was perplexed about RP "setting the date" too- I suppose it is determined by the extent of DIP financing though, so there is some logic to the arbitrary date. If I understand it correctly, the judge could ignore the date for further deliberation, but the "sustaining" financing would be exhausted, and the company would lay off staff and shutter facilities, and be worth even less.
I must say, it would appear eTrick lined up their ducks pretty well.
However, I must also say, I didn't see much alternative. Really, the best thing that could have happened would have been for EAC to have folded back in Jan 08 (if not sooner). The "hole wouldn't have been so deep", and the cumulative damage would have been worse, and we'd be right where we are now, except less people would have been damaged.
Why this didn't happen, I'm not sure. Maybe eTrick wanted to establish some credibility, although it makes one wonder why they didn't just wait out the EAC BK from the sidelines, then jump in.
Maybe Wedge sold them sunshine, and it took some number of months for reality to soak in.
Either way, EAC BK was inevitable, and I don't blame RP or eTrick for it.
On the note of ethics, it does seem improper to have been taking deposits, either initial or progress, during this period, however.
Speaking of "improper collections", of deposits, etc.,
I find it particularly poor taste that Wedge & friends would have allowed employees to exercise stock option purchases.
It's one thing to scam your staff into working for no overtime, for years, for dozens of hours per week- that is real sacrifice, and dedication. But then to take their money for worthless stock options, when any competent analysis of in-house data have shown the financial condition was untenable (wishful thinking, or deliberate deception?)- that sets a new precedent for sleaziness, in my book.
Zed, thanks for the invite to discuss tech issues.
EDT has invited us for a "home school'n" on economics too.
Wedge sent an invitation to join his Christmas card list- but I think I'll stick with the first two invites, thanks!
Billy (BTW: Chèvre is goat in french , nothing related to your beauty ... sorry ! ;-)) )
well , i wouldn't be so sure about RP ...
do not forget that he's been a Wedge's budy for quite a long time ... Etrick was previously known as EAC international ... and tha t the guy is a master at killing/slicing lipping business ,that the part where he has been involved mainly (only?) failing or dying business and squeezed some juice from it (well ...you know ... you do not make a fortune , having mostly failures in work-life without some "reasons" )
i wouldn't be too much surprised that his part of the plot was to bring 100M$ at some point , in order to milk more in the end ...
(the Russian part of business has probably cost an arm and a leg , but with no access to accountancy =pure conjecture ! still a very good way and reason to have EAC cash flying away ...) unless the 100M$ Bank Guarantee brought earlier this year , was worth about the paper making it , and he had no choice to hold the "baby" to do a bit of cleansing before it become public ...
Who Knows ? and who should care anyway ? the best for an hypothetic EAC future remain for RP to hide in a hole somewhere in Netherlands ... (unfortunately , the guy has an address in the south of France ...)
Atm :
is it possible in US to do "agreed creditors plan" ( a deal someone taking over a failed business can do with creditors meaning = you'll have a priority or some part of new bizz , if we agreed about a payment schedule over the years)
is that what you mean in "making a deal with previous clients & depositors " ?
can it be validated by Judge as a "better forward plan" ...
that would probably be the best thing to do , still the challenge is huge , i am not sure the previous victims would be that much lenient anymore as they have been all along ...
B.E.G. said...
Speaking of "improper collections", of deposits, etc.,
I find it particularly poor taste that Wedge & friends would have allowed employees to exercise stock option purchases.
...
I couldn't agree more. Last year (fall '07) I had the opportunity to attend a shareholder meeting with a friend and ex-EACer who was duped into exercising his stock options. I can't say exactly what was discussed at the meeting - NDA's and all. Suffice it to say that the news wasn't good.
The next morning they were giving joy rides in a FPJ. I got "lucky" enough to get the right seat. The pilot had only been with EAC for a month or so and was enthusiastic about exercising his stock options some day.
So I know for a fact that Wedge was speaking out both sides of his pie-hole. "I'm sorry" to the investors and "you're gonna be rich" to employees.
"I find it particularly poor taste that Wedge & friends would have allowed employees to exercise stock option purchases."
From Vern's viewpoint it brought badly needed cash into the 'business'. The fact that employees were not high net worth, qualified investors is another matter.
A few comments:
The praises made by writers concerning the GA turbo-prop class of aircraft is interesting. Having flown the Conquest I and II series extensively (loved them both) and the MU-2 series (1000 accident free hours, but I do NOT recommend for anyone but a full-time professional pilot) I would agree that they (the King Air series as well) offer wonderful performance and value.
The turboprop engine is indeed a jet engine with an essntially "unducted, unlimited bypass" feature. It has all the reliability features of a pure jet with vast improvements over piston. Their s/e performance can still be marginal under certain conditions but overall, a hell of an airplance class and generally with attractice cabin features/space/comfort.
Which brings me to the E500/VLJ. I have yet to take a pilot or sophisticated private jet user (for that matter, even my kids) into one of these, who doesn't find VLJ cabin dimensions just aweful; the E500 especially and the absence of a bathroom is a big deal. Between shoehorning yourself into the cockpit, to jamming three people in the back, it's just simply a very unnatural, unpleasant environment.
The cabin is, I believe, one of the key design failures of the class and one of the central marketing mistakes concerning buyer preference and alternatives.
On to EAC/ETIRC BK: telling that still no other major industrial entities appear to be lining up in court; RP appears to be alone. This is a very bad sign as the BK market appears to be saying what the retail market said prior to C11: "No overwhelming interest." It appears to be turning into a likely C7, with no ability to actually re-start the enterprise, let alone service the existing fleet, which will likely be either grounded, scrapped or suffer a slow death in an "alternative use" market. RP may feel he can purchase some "assets" but my view is anyone doing so would be engaging in a futile journey.
Baron,
LOL...yes I see your points. GM, Ford, Chrysler, and Boeing are, in my humble opinion, a category unto themselves. I would also add Wal-Mart to that category...
Now I'm sure you could lock up 100 economics Ph.D's in a room and get 1000 different perspectives on this. IMO, the crux is when governments decide their economic model: do producers have the 'right' to have pricing powers (to set the price we must pay) or do consumers have the 'right' to lowest possible prices? That decision is made when governments pass free trade laws and also allow unregulated transfers of capital to the most "efficient" uses, even if that means capital leaves the US. Wikipedia shows that NET Foriegn Direct Investment into the US has been better than outflows except in the 1980-89 timeframe. Corporations still invest in the USA, but the nature of those investments change, as they should, in a dynamic economic ecosystem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_direct_investment
Leaders from GM, Ford, and Chrysler should definitely be on the list for many failures. I'd specifically tar and feather Roger Smith simply for his lack of tact and PR skills. If it were me, I would have sat down with Michael Moore to go over his ideas regarding the future of the business AND come up with new ways it can be good for ALL participants ONLY when the biz makes a profit. I would have listened to people like Ross Perot instead of just paying him a ton of $$$ to go away. I would not have lied to the UAW and told them their jobs are secure just because they have a contract: GM, F, and C have all been giving the UAW spiked Kool-Aid for 50 years. The union should have been forced to face economic reality with the 1980-1982 and 1990-1991 recessions. GM has been a great enabler for quite some time now, but the world outside their plants as changed, like it or not.
Regardless of their labor costs, the critical failure of GM is its inability to design **ahead** of the curve; they are always late to anticipate what the consumer wants. With GM it's not a constant promise of "next Tuesday," it's 2010. And then when 2010 arrives and no one buys a $40k Volt or $35k Camaro SS, they will say 2012. Or 2015.
Whatever.
Their second critical failure is a business model that allows trucks to be their sole profit center today; that is NOT the biz model created by Alfred Sloan. It is nothing more than finnancial smoke and mirrors to use paper profits on trucks to offset losses everywhere else. This goes double for using profits in Europe and Asia to offset losses in North America; Sloan must be spinning in his grave with the prospect of GM going bankrupt. If the UAW was smart they would have seen that in the 1980's and come to the table with a list of demands that included proper accounting methods that accurately reflected a net profit for EACH vehicle. And in that scenario, the UAW could have been THE catalyst that always held managements' feet to the fire to ensure each plant was cranking out product the market wanted. When there was a dip in sales, the UAW could have been the change agent pushing for flexible factory systems so a line could switch to another product in a matter of hours (i.e., change production from an American market Chevy truck to a Chinease market car in short supply).
Vern should be on the list because of (a) his total 10-YEAR failure of Leadership and (b), his failure to live up to his own promise of "changing the value proposition." Where is the disruptive technology today? How can the average pilot afford to buy a plane TODAY? Vern should have learned from the lessons of post-WWII Japan and the rise of Toyota. They could not compete with the mass of GM so they had to develop the most efficient SMALL vehicles; they didn't have the capital to throw money or technology at problems (according to the MIT study/book "The Machine that Changed the World," there was serious internal dispute among Japanese engineers regarding 4-valve per cylinder engines b/c it increased cost and engineering complexity). The Eclipse 400 is what Vern should have started with, minus the Avio crap. I'm not hip to the nuances of the GA market ...but my gut tells me the market would buy an EA400 single jet for $999,000 with a low-tech RELIABLE analog gauge panel. Let each pilot decide what equipment they want in the IP by making the compents modular and easy to swap out. Wouldn't that be a way to future-proof the IP, by making it easy for each pilot or fleet owner to decide what, when, and how much to spend???? Then Eclipse could have had a SECOND profit center by developing these discrete components that one could buy 'a la carte or as a package deal...
Time to get off my butt and go running. Thank God no snow today.
e.d.t.
An Albuquerque television station is reporting that Eclipse Aviation's application for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection was approved by a Delaware court on Monday and that there is competition for Roel Pieper's bid to take over the company through a Luxembourg subsidiary of his company, ETIRC. KRQE does not identify the second potential purchaser for the company, which filed for Chapter 11 on Nov. 25.
In the filing, the company proposed that it essentially sell itself to Pieper's company and more recent reports say the proposed price is $198 million, roughly 20 percent of the money owed investors, suppliers and customers. Eclipse did not immediately return a voice message left Tuesday afternoon. According to the TV report, the sale must be completed by Jan. 12 or the court could order the company liquidated.
EDT,
I would help you tar and feather Roger Smith, I also would listen to Perot, but I would not give $.02 for any opinion of Micheal Moore's.
Tail.Dragger,
In the filing, the company proposed that it essentially sell itself to Pieper's company and more recent reports say the proposed price is $198 million, roughly ..
unfortunately, the "198m$" are 28m$ cash and "notes" priced at 16om $....
Julius
Chickasaw,
Moore might be a pain in the ass, but he did have **a few** points worth considering. At that time, it was rather odd for GM to close a plant in Flint, MI while the company was making money.
Forgive me for not spitting this out correctly: I was trying to show that your typical Management v. Labor conflict is just plain obsolete in today's "flat" world. Union labor has to approach things with an attitude of 'this is how we can work together' to keep this venture profitable for as long as possible. Keeping a plant running 24/7/360 with the ability to make 15 different models is a major technical challenge. The UAW could have shown all, by being flexible and proactive, that they would not allow GM Management to claim that union work rules are the cause of their problems. The UAW should have accepted a lower average hourly rate in exchange for requiring ALL stakeholders to get paid an annual bonus or dividend last, only after common agreed-to accounting rules showed a profit. This has bugged me with the record industry for years: producers, promoters, engineers, A&R guys, syccophants, and managers all want their money UP FRONT before the project is a success; most in the auto industry act like that too. I don't blame the UAW for trying to navigate thru that cesspool and get everything they could grab and hold on to; I do blame them for thinking they have zero risk at stake since they get paid even if the crap sells at a loss. At the same time, I don't think they were totally clueless as to what would happen from 1980-2008. With CEO Robert Stempel and the $4.5 billion loss in 1991, union leaders HAD to have considered the scenario of GM going bankrupt even if those discussions didn't involve the rank-and-file members.
So, we also have to tar and feather the Boards of Directors for GM, Ford, and Eclipse. At one All-Hands Meeting Vern made an off-hand comment about (former Ford CEO) Red Polling being on the Eclipse BOD. Something like Red's tenure at Ford was 'the last time Ford made money.' Pretty bold for a guy who lost $2 billion on airplanes to imply anything bad about Ford, especially when you hired Fierro to be your VP of Manufacturing. Still, so many of these issues could have been mitigated if the BOD acted like adults AND forced everyone else to act like adults too.
Personally, I don't understand how the BOD in so many public American companies can be passive with its job. When they fail to protect stockholders' interests, you see this wave of bankruptcies. Stockholder lawsuits are intersting drama to see play out in public ...but I don't think any BOD member can be sued personally for losing money based on the Corporate Veil and/or any contract they sign that protects their personal assets.
In short, I think this is why so many people can become wealthy in the USA: we own our own local mom-n-pop business that we run as if our life depends on it ...and we only put our PLAY money in the stock market knowing that the crooks we are forced to deal with (Madoff, Raburn) MIGHT be able to deliver us a profit if they don't screw it up first or steal all our money. Investors should be REQUIRED to listen to George Carlin's piece on "American businessmen" before they invest their cash with anyone. Is that too cynical? No. Who else besides you is going to care about your money?
e.d.t.
"...before the project is a success..."
Know why?
Definition of success??
Precisely.
I can turn a profit or I can pay myself and other huge salaries etc... BEFORE profits.
The movie industry is known for this BS... HUGE costs associated with "ehatever" and only losses for the investors/some stakeholders while "some" reap... up front.
Guess what?
I would rather a percentage of SALES than any percentage of profits.
Sales benefits all... profits is a fuzy parameter... that management has MORE control over than any thing else.
OK, back to basics: EAC no way they could ever reach profitability... but "sales"... there's amultiplier I can get my teeth into.
Get it?
Yahoo headlines this evening:
Slowdown in Detroit
"Bush says he didn't compromise his soul to be popular"
(I'd say his soul is the most uncompromised in history! Too bad the same can't be said for the rest of him :)
GWB
Eclipse Owners form committee to represent interests in Ch 11 proceedings, KOAT-Albuquerque:
KOAT, Eclipse Owners
BEG said ... With GM it's not a constant promise of "next Tuesday," it's 2010.
Yep. GM ha seen the promised land. It will arrive in 2010. The Chevy Volt, which at $40K will lose $10K/vehicle. The Union FEBA for healthcare, which will require tens of billions of dollars of finding first. The Camaro (looks nice by the way - I may even buy one for track duty uninsured), will do much better than the disapointing Challeger did (really!).
It is amazing how they can believe their own illusions. 2nd generation, just redone, CTS-V (nice car by the way) on par with M5. Great we have world class sedans now.
Ooooops. For got to say that it is on par with the outgoing BMW 5. The F10s are coming, you guess it, in late 09/early 10.
Truly a dollor short and a day (or several) late.
Tail.Dragger said...
An Albuquerque television station is reporting that Eclipse Aviation's application for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection was approved by a Delaware court
Guys - this is not news. It has been reported, and it just means that the court accepted the PETITION (i.e. it was filed correclty, etc). It means the process began. That is it.
OTOH, glad to know there is another bidder, it would be nice if it were an industrial partnes HB or EADS/TBM.
Baron ...
don't get confused between an other bidder , and the potentiality of an other bidder ...
you see , there was so many stunts in this story that i wouldn't be surprised "the other one" to be as fake as the "disruptive promise" ...
it only serve RP interests = It shows that eventually at least one bidder is mad-enough/clever-enough to be willing to pick-up that mess ...
more importantly , it distract the public from "Notes attention" , attest that 198 M$ is some kind of value and that NO one ask the value-worth of the "Notes" (which is Zip !)
i feel that RP is desperately trying to shake a red-rag in front of a bull , in hope that someone would be lured enough to "buy the baby" ..... hence taking him out of the mess and with a bit of luck = some cash (the DIP money )
billy
"Bush says he didn't compromise his soul to be popular"
oh yeah ....!
well , i know some are going to say "..nough ..."
but did he do anything to be popular to have his soul in play ?
let see :
made an war based on BS stuff !
(i really feel sad for soldiers , fighting a fight lost in advance for absolutely nothing ...!)
he has spent for this venture about 3 Trillions+ , making a baby born yesterday having his grand-kids to still repay it ...
and as an occurrence for doing so , just lied to the whole world (including his own citizens) about WMD and links with terrorism , even the Alphabet soup agencies say now it was totally constructed ...
he has encourage the biggest monetary mass expansion of all mankind history ...
(did you really believe the actual crisis is an accident ?)
he has made the biggest pile of debts any other president made before , probably bigger than all previous president before Together ...
He has voluntarily funded a mild kind of dictator (sakashvilli) to make a war against a much bigger neighbor , neighbor with nuke capabilities ...
very probably funded a seizure of power in a country close to the neighbor above (ukraine) to install in place a "democratic" Govt who have , since , worked-out a very good practice of the "my-pocket-first" type of policy ...
He has turned in own country in hate and despise of almost all others ...
well ... yeah ... such an uncompromising result ...!!!
Ahhh....Fred?
Without getting too political here....
They DID find WMD, you need to go back and read some of the reports over the last year and a half.
You've been watching too much far left socialist TV that fill your head full of propaganda.
And by the way, what is your definition of WMD?
And when you can't find the buried information that was hidden from everyone by the "leftist media" I will point you to the rite place so you can eat your words. When you settle this particular issue, we'll go onto about the security reports and other things that were fed to our president by
MANY other countries, including yours......Think with your head…not your feelings.
OH!...Fred
I'll give you a hint:
They are long an skinny and fly at high mach numbers...
...
I'd say global warming is the biggest WMD.
And we didn't find it- we created it.
But that's probably just propaganda from that leftist NASA bunch.
...
.)
B.-e-G.
Didja' read how all the data has been skewed by the improper placement of temperature sensors used in the temperature averaging of the global warming reports? Made a really big stink and the left media buried all the tech reports....
I might add..it nothing to do with NASA
Flyboy ...
don't get upset that much ...!
which country of mine are you talking about ?
sorry but the guy (GWB) was a joke as president ...!
you see there is a very nice parallel between what you wrote and the state of "say" car-makers ...
WHY change ??? it is us , after all !!!
Quit spinning it Fred..Didja' look up the stuff on the WMD yet?
Fly-machin
what part of the word "Democracy" don't you understand to believe anyone has to have the same opinion as you do ?
Again..Quit spinning it Fred.
There is a difference between opinion and FACTS. Didja' look up WMD yet?
I didn't ask you for your opinion, I asked if you looked up the facts. When you find the FACTS, let me know AND then tell me what you opinion is....I deeply respect peoples opinions based on facts NOT peoples opinions based on opinions that were based on opinions .....ect., ect. with an emotional tang attached to it.
This also goes back to Ken as an example. Who I respect for his regurgitation of facts on the OPERATION of his jet and the times he has CORRECTED misinformation on this blogg AND his opinion of those facts.
But I do not like is his "glib" about the whole EAC fiasco relating to the people involved.
Now...Fred the last sentence is MY "opinion" based on facts of someone who flies the EA500 and "knows" the numbers...And NOT someone on this blogg with opinions from reading other opinioned articles..
Git ma' drift partner?
ok , flytruc ...
facts :i had to do a military period when a bit younger ...
facts : i joined the security services of a middle-east (yes , the one very much friend with USA ...)
facts : i still have a few very good buddies there
facts : when the little sample of white powder shown as anthrax was produced in front of United Nations , i had a talk with one of my "oriental" friend ...
facts : while being in charge of state security , he believed (not to use a stronger word) that was complete creation ... AND IN NO WAY a threat for ANYBODY out of the area ... (remember a fact : scuds were launched by hundreds , only less 5 reached Israel , which is infinitely closer to the center of problem , No ? )
just ask yourself , if ANYTHING would have had been found , don't you guess the GWB adm. would have been so f****g glad to show to the world that they didn't , at least on this ?
and if they didn't communicate , it is even worse ... it would show that they were blankely stupid !!!
As for Kenny , this such a good example of what you do not get ...
DiD IT CHANGE anything to the fact that he is screwed ? left orphaned with a scrap of metal that might be totally useless soon ?
those ARE FACTS !
for one fact you would show , i could show you a hundred of counter-facts ... because unless what you seems to believe , the world is multipolar and everybody makes mistakes ... only the most stupid never recognize it !
Fly-bidule
beside this (and before i stop this argument [in french , there is a saying : "you can never teach a trick to a blind monkey"] you believe whatever you want ...at one condition , if you believe to be right : stay home!)
you are whining about peoples sharing opinions ...
you would prefer facts ...
ok , no problem ...
but how do you talk , comment or report about a firm which has produced 99% BS , 99% marketing stunts , 99% manipulation ...
are these to be considered as facts ???
Hi FlyboyMark,
I missed hearing about "all the data has been skewed by the improper placement of temperature sensors used in the temperature averaging of the global warming reports?"
I suspect because "all that data that was skewed" is so minute as to be inconsequential compared to the data that was not skewed (and still accurately points to global warming).
And somebody needs to tell those Armadillos that they are migrating based on erroneous sensors, and have them go back where they belong. They have invaded my home state- utterly unheard of- they were well more than 200 miles south a few decades ago.
And tell NASA too...
NASA press release, published in my home paper Dec 17, 2008
------------------------------
Still, I am up for enlightenment, although I expect it to be an exercise in trivia.
After all, we didn't hear about all the sensors that skewed the data to show that global COOLING is in progress either (but there were bound to be some) for the same reason- the percentage of these erroneous readings is inconsequential to the correct aggregate. (And other methods of observation- I have a little rubber hose that the Armadillos step on, so I've been counting them for several years now).
But, please post a link to the data in question.
And the WMD too. (Technically, I think you are referring to delivery systems- there is no mass destruction in a missile- it's the warhead, NCB in contemporary parlance, that makes a missile -part of- a WMD).
Thanks.
(What an unsavory topic for us to be discussing this close to Christmas ! :)
-------------------------------
Fred,
"remember a fact : scuds were launched by hundreds , only less 5 reached Israel, which is infinitely closer...a scrap of metal that might be totally useless soon ?"
Fred- Are you suggesting Eclipse's be used as cruise missiles to reconstitute Iraq's depleted and range-limited SCUD's?
(If so, let's hope they put tourists- happy, smiling tourists, on them, rather than the previous "manifest").
.)
Ok
Fred....Your getting emotional now and it's affecting you writing; you're now cussing, using different names for me and embellishing.( and I'm still calling you by your name "Fred".) You are missing the point.....I'll lay out the story for you then you can go look it up.
They found not once but in two separate instances buried missiles specifically designed to carry chemical weapons. It was brought up briefly in the media and the GWB White House actually downplayed it! At the time, the president was trying to calm the squabbling within our own government. A further example of his genuine candor and commitment to unity rather than trying to stick it in the eye of opposing party as they are well known for. First instance was about 18-20 months ago and the second was October-November of last year.
NOW! I mostly blame allot of "foreign" ill opinion of this country on the media, not necessarily the left party. The problem with the media is reporting has disappeared and the editorial page where opinion belongs is now the front page with to many reporters spinning the facts with their opinion mixed in.
So Fred.....Its like this: A convicted felon in this country is not allowed to own or possess a gun...PERIOD. But his probation officer visiting his house saw a gun on the table and asked what he was doing with the gun in his possession. He responded that it was unloaded.
Fred..calm yourself down...I jus' wanna’ know your "opinion or feelings" based on facts...PLEASE!
If ya jus' don't like George than say so..
I take great offense at people that are uninformed taking jabs at my country because of propaganda or misinformation in the media, especially if they have never lived here or have only visited in the city for a short time. I have consistently found the foreign visitors have no idea of how things are here until they have spent some "REAL" time here and understand the government AND culture from ALL parts of the country.
B.-e-G.
They were NOT scuds, they were small short range missiles launched from a mobile multi-launcher… and I'm digging for the info to post...
As for the temp sensors the issue was over a period of time and the areas around them were developed over the years into parking lots and houses, ect. which absorb and radiate a great deal of heat. Instead of isolated or wild areas as originally intended. The technical reports said that the data was all skewed and that the data is in reality irrelevant. Report was scientific and bipartisan. We don't know what the real facts are now other than opinion that it 's been getting warmer. WHY? Well is it a natural weather cycle or man made? The scientific community is in dispute with itself rite now. The media is preaching doom and gloom with which I trust as far as I can spit.
Digging for those links too...
So if I am understanding the bid, does RP have something like this up his sleeve?
1.) RP/ETRIC bought exclusive rights from Wedge (VR for the uninformed) to Eclipse Europe and Eastern Europe distribution and production in exchange for investing in 07 or early 08.
2.) ETRIC convinced govt of Russia to grant and/or invest $200 million, part to build the plant, part as payment for the rights, to get Russia production in place.
3.) ETRIC's investment is (most or all) in the form of secured debt, not equity, so they get the proceeds of the sale of Eclipse in Chapter 11 first before anything goes to secured or unsecured creditors
4.) RP bid $200 million, most of it via a note, for all of the assets of Eclipse.
5.) Whatever cash comes in throught the sale will be less than the debt, so it goes to the debt holders who agreed to continue supporting the company, presumably they are in front of the wall street guys who quit the board and pulled out
6.) So the cash that comes in from the sale goes right out to the senior secured debt holders who are Mann and RP.
7.) Depositors, Jet Incomplete prepaid depositors, owners waiting for upgrades, owners waiting for warranty coverage, equity investors (Bill Gates, Dan McElroy et al), and Trade A/P creditors get ZERO since the sale price is less than the senior secured debt
8.) RP/ETRIC will then own the company and paid for it with the Russia payment for the rights to mfg in Russia. At the expense of up to $1 billion lost in equity, hundreds of millions lost by depositors, hundreds of millions lost by creditors.
Am I getting this right? Comments?
Yeps!
Makes me want to get all my tactical weapons out and start cleaning them while thinking un-clean thoughts....and I'm not even a depositor!
Still wondering about he Taylor-Messor(or Massor?)incident...anybody got news on that?
In regards the Taylor-Messor(Massor?) event; if the situation is true as told to us, It would have been last gunfight at the OK Coral with me standing last considering the money and time I would have been involved with if it were me.
AND Fred that's my well based emotional opinion based on law and my right to self defense and interstate reciprocity to carry my weapons.
Gotta go guys, I need a "pint" as Shane says...I'm getting carried away with unclean thoughts again...
Dear Faithful,
I think you are correct- but there are many folks who can better analyze it than me.
I would note- I think RP will have sunk around a cool half $B or so; I think around $100-200 early this year, plus life support for say, six months at probably $20M/mo, plus $200M or so if his bid is accepted.
Not chump change at all.
Too bad for the early investors (customers, vendors, workers, taxpayers, etc.).
I'm not that keen on the Russian production line. But Wedge had an unsustainable business plan, and EAC was going to fold or go BK no matter what (and I'm glad RP did indeed go BK, rather than fold, at least so far). In fact, except for some exceptional showmanship and razzle dazzle in bringing in new meat/cash, EAC should have folded, really back in late 2004. (Ah, and 2005. And 2006. And 2007). The fact it kept going isn't validation of the business plan, only of Wedge's showmanship.
(Just think if he used that for the benefit of humanity via philandrophic fundraising- really).
-----------------------------
Flyboymark,
Thanks for doing some research on the sources. I'll try to dig some stuff up too in a couple of days- BookTV on CSpan2 weekends, has had a lot of good shows on this, and many other, subject.
Thanks.
Forbes has a story entitled "How To Start A Ponzi Scheme"
Vern looks like he met all the requirements at Eclipse:
Be gracious and endearing. (Check)
Look very prosperous. (Double check)
Pretend you have a lot if special wisdom even if you don't. (Triple check)
Wrap yourself in your religion. (Another big check -- the Church of Flyintology, of course)
Looks like Eclipse is shutting down this weekend, and not reopening until January 5th.
That means NO parts, maintenance or other services will be coming out of ABQ for over 2 weeks.
The company is toast. No bailout is coming. Assuming EAC even opens it's doors on January 5th, it is likely that the next time they close their doors it will be for good, and the few E500's in existence will take their rightful place in the Museum of Boat Anchors.
As predicted, in this blog.
billy :
I think around $100-200 early this year
yes , i think your analyze is pretty much close to what probably did happen ...
i see the situation as :
early in the year , RP brought a 100M$ Bank-Guarantee , got control over the plot and then has been on life-support from eac since then ...
let's take March as a starting point and October as an end ...
at ? it is 8 months ... and i am pretty convinced that it has been damn expensive life support ...
so it would more or less look and sound as L&H , look like the man of the situation by bringing some fresh cash with only one intention behind = for each $ brought in , 1.5 / 2 have to be thrown in some safe-place out of reach after BK ...
the alternative : the guarantee was useless , then one has to know that when a bank accept such paper , most of times , they won't report too much to have been scammed ... this is very easy to understand : bank between themselves works 99% on trust (this is a big chunk of the today crisis = no one bank trust other banks , so the whole "engine" has stopped) if you were a local bank , if you accepted such paper against some credit-line because the firm presenting it, did seems to be in the "officials" esteem (this is where it is important to have some kind of "looking like backing" from locals officials = bank may think "it's kosher ! state apparatus is behind ")
after some time the bank find-out the guarantee is useless (most of times : due to the wording of the guarantee , some funny exception working under some weird conditions , don't laugh , this is a part of "inventive finances" to have wordings made in a way , an army of specialist-lawyer have to study it for ages before finding out ...)
there is about 90% chances the bank will swallow the baby (not reporting it) because damage on other-bank's trust will be greater than an amount of cash ....
(all high-class crooks know this , the hardest is to have the bank accepting the guarantee , after it's a milk-way ...!)
and by the way , what they did (or the way they presented it ) could be considered as "Soliciting"
which is supposed to be forbidden !
Banks are supposed to Offer a loan , and then the Borrower can produce a Guarantee for the loan ...
never the opposite !
this is made to avoid (try to , at least) Bank-guarantee transaction ...
so RP has been around much longer than planned due to the forensic-cleansing that had to be done ...
Actually Niner Zulu, there is still going to be support teams availible during this time, so we aren't quite as high and dry as you might think.
on some other news :
the PM of Russian Federation , Mr Putin has said today :
“We will not cut back on national projects because this is a social priority, but this does not mean that we will not monitor the feasibility of the allocations,” he emphasized.
The Russian government has approved the creation of a commission to promote the Russian economy's sustainability. It will be chaired by First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov, with Deputy Economy Minister Anna Levitskaya appointed as secretary. The commission will also include the Finance Minister, the Economy Minister, the Healthcare Minister and the Regional Development Minister, as well as the heads of the Presidential Administration, Sberbank, Vnesheconombank, VTB, and members of the State Duma and the Federation Council.
If the Etrick project is to be monitored , they are fried !!
No way they can last more than a few minutes , if under careful scrutiny ...
on the other hand , the Chairman of VEB has (or is , not sure when or if announced )
the Russian banks situation ,now , is a bit tough , with the Oil Price falling some projects are like stone put on the surface of water ...
the 200M$ as royalties are not paid , and will probably never be paid ...
and the loan is , at the best, postponed until better times ...
so , the ULWW factory is fried , so is Etrick and Eac by extension ...!
Remember, RP arranged for the financng he says HE/ETRICK has while running EAC.
He even claimed the Russian financing transaction provided funds for EAC - nice, since it was rights to EAC products that were used to rsie the money.
I think, in order to come clean, a judge must look at the "deposit" money ETRICK and its affiliates in say Turkey, for the few hundred Eclipse 500 "orders" it kept on the books.
In an arms length transaction, there would have been some deposit money for these... 300 or so, "orders"...
These "orders" are seperate and apart from the "financing" dollars ETRICK put up for EAC, the bsis for which was RP taking control.
Finally, if there was no deposit money, I would immediately ask ETRICK to place deposits with EAC for each "order" it had.
The judge should see this as step 1. Especially since the non-insiders put up hard cash for their orders, and lost all that money.
Hi 9Z,
Some of the other airframers are shutting down for two weeks as well- a bit unusual, but the slower economy, maybe- seems with Christmas Eve on a Wednesday, and New Years Day on a Thursday, there is some arguement that this it's more efficient just to give everyone two weeks off.
In EAC's case, I doubt if they have money to manufacture anything, so no need having staff mill around for a few extra days.
---------------------------------
Hi EPx,
I'm glad Santa will keep the elves on standby in EAC. Maybe with AOG-1 on the hot ready pad. (Hope they aren't into the eggnog though... :)
---------------------------------
Hi Fred,
Thanks for the analysis.
I read oil dropped below $43 or so this morning (don't know if it will stay down- I heard one of the European banks is predicting $25, and fractures within OPEC despite announced produciton cuts).
Seems like this would have some affect on enthusiasm for the Russian facility.
Question: if the world economy is sputtering for a while (sort of like watching a GWB speech:), what is the minimum action eTrick would have to perform in order to secure the TC and PC?
Answer ?: I would propose, the Russians will go slow on construction, and maintain a "shadow" factory in the US to keep those pieces of paper from flittering away.
-Thanks.
(p.s.- I'm sorry I don't want to shoot anyone today. But I'll try to get worked up for it this weekend. Life is just so pedestrian and boring sometimes... :)
:)
Speaking of our chum Flyboymark's proposed shootout at the O.K. coral and such (although I'm not quite sure I'll call the EAC ramp area quite such an OK place of late...),
Does anyone know the answer to his question about the repo squad actions a couple of weeks ago- maybe a happier ending with the airplane being released to the owner?
(If not, I hope there is some criminal legal action taken, although as Gunner says, "we don't know what we don't know" about the full story there. But I share FBM's outrage, if not quite his proposed solution :)
Should "Flyintology" be added to the list?
billy ...
and maintain a "shadow" factory in the US to keep those pieces of paper from fluttering away
there is an old french movie speaking of a war-prisoner ...
many years after the end of the war , he come back to france , see his former wife re-married to an other guy (as everybody was sure he had been killed, and in fact the whole plot is about him having a Fräulein-girl-friend , just "forgetting" to go back ...)
so , his former wife ask him "why you didn't write ?"
his answer : "it was so cold there , that ink was freezing before getting on paper ...!"
RP should be careful , the ink of the Cert. could fall off ! ;-)
Actually Niner Zulu, there is still going to be support teams availible during this time, so we aren't quite as high and dry as you might think.
Well, maybe it's not unusual for airframe manufacturers to shut down during this period. I can understand that. But it just seems to underscore the dire straits that both EAC and owners are in.
EPomsiv, if I were you I'd be looking for the first opportunity to bail on my E500 with the least loss possible. I'd sell it, trade it, or even part it out if that's what it took to get rid of it.
airtaxi
it is a good idea !
having the judge to have ALL floptions backed by REAL cash from the ones of the orders ... ;-)
my little finger tell me that all orders from european E-trick , Turkey , Cyprus and Russia would just do a soft "Wooooshhhh" (Gone in smoke !)
Niner zulu wrote, "EPomsiv, if I were you I'd be looking for the first opportunity to bail on my E500 with the least loss possible. I'd sell it, trade it, or even part it out if that's what it took to get rid of it."
Of course you would, NZ. You don't get it, and you never will. You're a turboprop guy, and you want to be. And somehow you need to keep convincing yourself how much better it is that you're stuck in a turboprop while some of us are enjoying a cost-effective jet with great performance.
Whatever.
My plane now has over 60,000 miles on it. It is a fantastic plane that's working out great.
Sell it? You're nuts.
Ken
Ken,
Yes, you're right. You'd be nuts to sell it.
For what it's actually worth now.
Shane
Woaw ...
Our Kenny is back on Kenny-mode ?
lol
Hey Ken,
I would love to see your EAC500, but we are in the middle of a snow storm. definite FIKI weather. I guess you better stay on the Left Coast.
Just so you know the SBs have been approved for FIKI and Avio NG 1.5 Sure it may cost a bit more but it won't be long until we are visiting you guys in the snow.
EclipsepilotOMSIV,
but it won't be long until we are visiting you guys in the snow.
what means "long" for you? Just a month, next quarter..?
On monday it's the judges turn to decide what will happen.
Perhaps an auction...
Naturally, you have your money ready for advance payment. Then...same story as with AVIO NG 1.5 in October (?) ( 3 months later...)... And you get your AVIO NG 1.5 and the FIKI within two days or two weeks after deliverying the a/c at EAC?
If EAC wants to continue the operations in ABQ it has to get money - and you know the easiest prey...
Julius
ja , genau ! mein freund !
Wait, Wait... my Euro-Douche filter was on. My apologies. Can you send your post again Julius? Thanks.
Well, on a concilitory note, I think all parties agree "it might be a while" (make that while(tm), before all the updates are accomplished.
Two logistics questions come to mind:
1) Whose airplane gets updated first, second, third, etc.
2) If EAC does go belly up (I don't think they will), how would the parts be distributed- directly to avionics shops of the owner's selection?, or is there still some contractual muckiness regarding a proprietary distribution chain (e.g., only to EAC?)
I tend to think the upgrade process will go well, regardless, and I would suspect by the end of 2009, most of the fleet will be retrofited, regardless of EAC's status.
The next few weeks will be "interesting"- gotta admit, it is quite a soap opera!
second turn for:
EclipsepilotOMSIV,
but it won't be long until we are visiting you guys in the snow.
what means "long" for you? Just a month, next quarter..?
On monday it's the judges turn to decide what will happen.
Perhaps an auction...
Naturally, you have your money ready for advance payment. Then...same story as with AVIO NG 1.5 in October (?) ( 3 months later...)... And you get your AVIO NG 1.5 and the FIKI within two days or two weeks after deliverying the a/c at EAC?
If EAC wants to continue the operations in ABQ it has to get money - and you know the easiest prey...
Julius
December 19, 2008 12:36 PM
BTW: The employees must be trained ...on the job...
Julius
Oil at $34. Mortgage rates in the 4% range. All the money being (and about to be) injected in the economy by the central banks - what a great time to buy a Jet.
Where are the true VLJs?
In case people haven't noticed, the two highest cost line items for operating a jet (fuel and financing), just got cut by 70% and 30%. WoW.
Got love those market crashes.
Poor guys that traded down their SUVs for a Prius or their Jet for a meat chpping prop.
On the AviationWeek site, they report that an EAC "insider" claims to know there are 2 other bidders for EAC...
e.d.t.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/MEET12198.xml&headline=Eclipse%20Owners:%20Honor%20Obligations&channel=busav
"In case people haven't noticed, the two highest cost line items for operating a jet (fuel and financing), just got cut by 70% and 30%. WoW."
not true, really - MRO, (and potentially Depreciation)
On the financing issue, you need to look at a delta, to see IF this in fact makes a big difference, and it really might be small potatoes.
Finally, for this plane, retrofit costs might be a biggie..
;)
Well, Ken, I am a turboprop guy. I'm also a piston guy and a jet guy. Depends upon the mission.
I'm just not an Eclipse guy, and thankfully I haven't lost a penny to them.
I don't have anything against the plane. It is, after all, an airplane. It is also, unfortunately, an unproven botch job from a unscrupulous company running a ponzi scheme that you fell for - I didn't. The avionics are already a dinosaur, and the company that should be standing behind the product is going code blue as we speak.
Face it. You got screwed. You're not any happier with the company than I am. You KNOW they are crooks from first-hand experience. You lost the deposit on your second airplane, you got screwed on your upgrades, your Jet Complete, your warranty and your resale value (you'll find that out when you try to sell it). It seems you were wrong about a good many things.
All BS, just like "friction stir welding". What a freakin' joke that was!
If you want to call me nuts because I didn't get sucked into the Eclipse ponzi scheme, go ahead. I'll wear the badge proudly. I wouldn't buy one for any amount of money.
Please, just go enjoy your plane before it is AOG.
b95,
oil at 34
it's not good idea, to run a longterm business based low energy costs...
Now you can enjoy the low price.
If you have a reputation you will get a lot of money - and may use it for oil....The first half of 2008 was a good example for high oil prices.
If you have enough money to use a Phenom 100, you might ignore your loss of a fpj - just a toy.
But professional operators think in other terms. They dislike to say to a customer on the ramp "Sorry my fpj is not available - please use the C1 - for the same price! You will arrive in time!"!
I am quite sure helicopter-Ben will look that the low interests will not be misused for a new house bubble or a jet-for-everybody scenario.
Julius
Guten Tag , mein freund Julius ...
i don't know what helicopter-ben is going to do on the matter , but it looks , sounds and smell every day a little more like the Japan-scenario ... they had exactly the same type of problems , did exactly what H-Benny is doing ... theirs recession (or very weak expansion) has lasted for .... well... 18 years later , it is still not really finished ....!
about B95 (you see inflation everywhere , yesterday it used to be B52 ... now 95 ... where are we all going ...? ;-) )
sometimes i envy him ...
to see always the side of things is a gift !! (just have to be careful of not finishing like Brian , singing "always look on the bright side of life" , on the cross ...)
on an other point of view , experience taught me that in period of crisis when peoples are shit-scared = the crisis is not that difficult to overcome ...
when they are laughing in the face of crisis = it's time to hide deep under the blankets ...
the subprime aren't finished yet , the bulk of it is only going to appear in the wake of the new-year ...
some says it's going to be even worse ...
let's pray (on such occurrence , i am willing to believe in anything , even in God ...!) that they are wrong ....!!!
time to wish a wonderful good end of year gathering , have lots of fun and joy ... fly safe for the one doing so ....
i am going to be skiing on the Toubkal ...!
happy New-year and Merry Christmas to all !!
Julius that was sarcasm buddy... I didn't actually need you to post your comment again....
New post up.
Slightly unusual source, as some of you will remember Alex as one of the most vocal of the Faithful.
And our next headline has a Black Tulip 'special' that will amuse even the most jaded blogger....
Shane
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