But there is more.
Customers are frustrated.
Not only have EAC failed to produce aircraft at the rate they said themselves was required for the plan to work, they are LOSING customers, some of whom now 'enjoy' the status of unsecured creditors. These are the people who have requested deposit and/or progress payment refunds after the price increase in August. As far as I can tell, only those who had money in the Frankenjet (a.k.a E400) have had cash back from Roel. As a group these people are mad at EAC and have joined forces to seek the refund they are entitled to. One of them sent Mike McConnell (President of all that Peg is NOT President of) an email last week, seeking answers to specific questions. So far, he has not had the good grace to reply. Herewith the list:-
Mike,
1. It was reported that Eclipse had issue a certain amount of refund checks and those checks were not honored by the bank. Has Eclipse made good on those checks?
2. How many depositors have had their money refunded?
3. Have there been any concessions to those seeking refunds? Partial refund? Aircraft at reduced prices? Etc?
4. What intellectual rights have been transferred, assigned, pledged to ETIRC during the last 12 months?
5. If a cash infusion does not occur within 30/60/90 days what contingency plans does Eclipse have? How long can you operate?
6. Recent releases on “Russian Funding” have been non-cohesive. What is the amount? Have any funds been received? What contingencies are attached to the Russian funding? When is Eclipse “US” expected to receive these funds?
7. Eclipse stated that a majority of vendors are in place to resume production. Yet at least one major vendor (empennage) has closed the facility that manufactures the empennage. How do you plan on handling critical vendors that are no longer willing to provide products to Eclipse?
8. Other than harming the secondary marketplace what financial interest does Eclipse have in the ex-Dayjet fleet?
9. A number of depositors are talking about forcing involuntary bankruptcy. Does Eclipse have contingency plans if this occurs?
10. How many 60% progress payments has Eclipse collected above serial number 266?
1. It was reported that Eclipse had issue a certain amount of refund checks and those checks were not honored by the bank. Has Eclipse made good on those checks?
2. How many depositors have had their money refunded?
3. Have there been any concessions to those seeking refunds? Partial refund? Aircraft at reduced prices? Etc?
4. What intellectual rights have been transferred, assigned, pledged to ETIRC during the last 12 months?
5. If a cash infusion does not occur within 30/60/90 days what contingency plans does Eclipse have? How long can you operate?
6. Recent releases on “Russian Funding” have been non-cohesive. What is the amount? Have any funds been received? What contingencies are attached to the Russian funding? When is Eclipse “US” expected to receive these funds?
7. Eclipse stated that a majority of vendors are in place to resume production. Yet at least one major vendor (empennage) has closed the facility that manufactures the empennage. How do you plan on handling critical vendors that are no longer willing to provide products to Eclipse?
8. Other than harming the secondary marketplace what financial interest does Eclipse have in the ex-Dayjet fleet?
9. A number of depositors are talking about forcing involuntary bankruptcy. Does Eclipse have contingency plans if this occurs?
10. How many 60% progress payments has Eclipse collected above serial number 266?
Pretty heavy stuff, especially from a customer, I think you will agree. A lot of us would like to know the answers to some of these questions. If anyone 'out there' would like to share their views in confidence, email me at eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
Staff have doubts
The internal sources on the 505 continue to contradict the public utterances of Mike, Peg and Roel. As is normal in any business, especially one that it trying to restructure, cash is king. Let's examine the 'traditional' sources of EAC funding. Sales of aircraft. Well, the picture here is bleak in the extreme. Activity here has all but ceased. After refund requests are taken out of the picture, EAC have not had a deposit on a single FPJ for 9 months.
Think about that.
It gets worse. Roel and his merry crew have talked about '$200 million' investment required to get to profitability. Currently, creditors (including refund requests) are 'overdue' just over $170 million and total liabilities (including secured lending) exceed $650 million. In the midst of a general liquidity crisis I think it's fair to say that '$200 million' is less than a third of what is actually required.
Internally, politics are causing friction. The senior management have been promised 100% bonuses if the company gets to 'cash flow positive' in Q1 2009. Sales staff are being promoted by Mike, who seems to think he's the 'real' President, and CV's are flying around the industry from specific people. These are the ones you would expect to know the likely short term outcome, but they still appear to be keen to 'jump ship'.
Lets work this through. The Frankenjet is on hold, which is hardly surprising given that the initial burst of under 100 deposits (only $25K, btw) has been decimated by almost 50 refund requests. The FPJ has a remaining order book of 440 units (at best) with a number of those positions for sale in the aftermarket or likely to vanish when buyers can't get the loans they need. The largest single 'order' outstanding is from Roel himself, to provide air taxi services in Turkey, and it's not even properly deposit backed. The company has had to repossess 28 second hand units from DayJet, and carries a significant bad debt as a result of this failure. Plus of course the difficult task of finding buyers for these 'used' FPJ's without further damage to the already fragile order book.
I can't see this mess appealing to another investor myself, can you?
UPDATED Thursday 16th 20.15hrs GMT
Seems someone in ABQ reads the blog and has a problem with the deposit on the Frankenjet. Glad to see they recognize the ConJet for what it is, by the way. Anyway, the FULL deposit on at Oshkosh was $100,000, not $25,000. My fault. They are also in denial about the 'zero orders in 2008' bit, so I told them where to find their own records. Perhaps they will believe me, if they bother to check.
The FAA and that DOT IG saga
A group of FAA stalwarts are surprised that the transcripts of last month's hearing in Washington have not made the appropriate web site yet. So they posted some video on youtube. Have look at one in particular, from a lady called Maryetta Broyles. She gives a first hand account of the pressure the original FAA inspectors were under, to 'get it done' for Eclipse. At a time when the FAA were under severe budget pressure, her group were told that 'money was not a problem' and were instructed to stay at EAC no matter what. There are other people who are worth a look at the same site
This major issue hasn't gone away you know. It's only on hold until after the U.S. Presidential election.
Current spending
You've all read about the $106 mil contract with CSC for IT outsourcing. Well it seems this is just the beginning as there will be another contract signed with IBM for an undisclosed 'small fortune'. The primary objective is to make SAP functional as it is currently, well, broken. I know that some here will be familiar with SAP, but for those of you who are not, it's major claim to fame is 'end to end' integration of all aspects of manufacturing. From this seat, all I know is that a number of 'household names' that my company deal with have thrown it 'under the bus', primarily because they could not understand the software. So, another yet another 'disruptive' idea from EAC. A company that can't sell aircraft uses software no one can understand NOT to build the volume it needs to survive.
I'm reminded of what has to be one of the best one liners in modern cinema, from 'As Good As It Gets' when Jack Nickleson's character, Melvin Udall is approached by the receptionist in his publishers office. She asks "How do you write women so well?" He replies "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability"
Owners in contact and possible future direction(s)
As you know, I keep in touch with the different 'groups' with interests in the Eclipse Aviation story. Clearly that starts with those who post here and continues with Eclipse staff and suppliers. I also have regular contact with journalists and, last but not least, owners. One who contacted me recently made several points, most of which agree with what 'we' are doing here. He did suggest that we 'widen' the blog to include discussion of other VLJ's.
My initial reaction, personally, is that I have my hands full keeping up with one company. I also have a sneaking suspicion, voiced here before, that this blog will be the last resource available to owners of FPJ's when EAC closes its' doors for the last time.
The question is a fair one however, and I think it's time to have an open discussion. October was always touted as the month that EAC had to secure it's funding, or shut down. Before that event occurs I would be interested to hear what the blog thinks. Suggestions that have crossed my line of vision include focus on another (jet) aircraft, with names like Honda and Piper floating around, as well as a more general VLJ forum.
Being a blog, it's a discussion we should have 'in the thread'....
Shane
337 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 337 of 337Mike,
Thanks for the info on the DayJet fleet sale.
Is the price so high because Eclipse still have to pay off UT?
Will you provide a full list of the SDR's suffered by each aircraft, or will the new owners have to root that out for themselves?
Are the tires fresh or will you replace them with the newer Michelins before you deliver?
I note the ad says EAC are acting as 'brokers'. Who is selling them?
Shane
Dispatch reliability is generally computed by dividing the number of flights less delays by the number of flights plus cancellations. Assume an operator has a two-plane fleet that each are scheduled to fly 30 trips a month. The first airplane has one small delay during the month. The dispatch reliability for that tail number would be 29/30 or 96.67%. If the second airplane had no delays but two cancellations it would have a dispatch reliability of 30/32 or 93.75%. For the fleet the reliability for the month would be 59/62 or 95.16%. For the numbers to mean anything about reliability and maintainability the maintenance delays and cancellations have to be computed against individual tail numbers. If you have 75% of the fleet available as spares the percentage of flights that get off on time is meaningless.
airtaximan,
VR numbers might be correct, but do not have any meaning as he did not explain, how this percentage was calculated.
Julius
Karen has a new article up!:
Teal Group's Richard Aboulafia's First Eclipse Aviation Report
It provides Richard Aboulafia's report and it is good reading, though I disagree with his comments when he's speaking in general about VLJs.
Also with the DJ fleet notice how that now that Roel isn't shipping them off to ETIRCland, he's not refurbishing the jets either. He was only interested in doing refurbs when ETIRC stood to profit from it.
I've done some further digging and I believe I've found out more who COMAC Capital is. I believe it is a florida business established by Robert A McIntosh and Peter V Cowie:
Florida Department of State: Comac Capital Inc
Trent Hammon, a junior management major from Tavernier, Fla., was the recipient of the Southern Self Storage Scholarship, which is awarded to business majors with an interest in entrepreneurship. Robert A. McIntosh and Peter V. Cowie, owners of Southern Self Storage and American Free Enterprise companion medalists in 1999, established the scholarship.
Palm Beach Atlantic University:Scholarships Go to 3 Business Students
Counterpoint Estates Plat Map
Presumably they got an FPJ to fly around Florida and to Canada for current and proposed self-storage facilities:
Southern Self Storage website
one comment on the "Russian Loan" ...
(sorry to bore you , Mr Gad!)
i was talking with a colleague on the matter , i have learned something sooooo hilarious ...
investments loans for development made by VEB under the law from june 2007 have to be REPAID in a five (5) years frame ...
so ( i know i am grossly uneducated but) if i count well : it means that they have to repay some 40 Millions US$ per year , if interests are excluded = currently the interbank-rate in Russia (technically one of the cheapest loan one bank can get or lend) is around 10 (ten) %)
so following this : they have to make enough profits to pay for retrofits , for factory day-to-day , for staff , AND an other 40M$ for loan service ...
i guess that 1.000 units per year is not going to be enough ...
Roel why don't you sell 2.000 ? ;-)
In one seven page report, the man has put almost every argument in perspective.
Quote:
"The Eclipse program was designed
from the outset to be revolutionary
and unique. In Teal Group’s
estimation, the people behind Eclipse
have attained this objective. This program
is the single worst aviation program
Teal Group has ever covered."
gadfly
(Who can argue?! Excellent report! And the comment, ". . . although many other pilots
consider it a dysfunctional mass
of parts flying in loose formation" . . . now, that's a classic!)
Shane quoted an unnamed "working pilot" who supposedly said,
"In fact, we feel bad for the Fischer Price Toy Company, by using their good name, to label such a poor and potentially dangerous airplane.
With this 98% claim, I bet the B.S. meter broke. I had to laugh.
And Shane asked, "So, Baron, that's from someone who was there. Were you?"
Shane *I* was there. I've owned an Eclipse 500 for 6 months. I have over 150 hours on my plane.
I have never cancelled a scheduled flight in my Eclipse. I guess that means I have a 100% dispatch reliability rate. I think you're posting a lot of BS. Your blog; you can do anything you want with it. But people need to know that actual owners like me say you're writing a bunch of baloney.
The truth is that my plane just keeps soldiering on, flight after flight after flight with far greater reliability than my old piston plane ever had.
I'm not interested in arguing the point with you. I'm going to disappear (off flying!) until you again write something so completely wrong it's worth bothering to answer it. You have your version based on whatever it is you base your writing on (Ouija board?). I have my version, based on actual experience.
Actual experience...there is no substitute :)
Ken
kennyBoy :
you 're right ;there is no substitute to experience ...!
but there is relativity ...
if in the 6 months you've own your FPJ if you have flown 6 times and never missed one for technical reason = it doesn't mean that much !
as for canceling , you just need NOT to plan it , no plan = no cancellation ...!
be a little patient :soon winter is going to ground you a lot more than you will dare to report ...
all will be NON canceled flight ! ;-)
I have never cancelled a scheduled flight in my Eclipse. I guess that means I have a 100% dispatch reliability rate.
You're flying your aircraft commercially?
I think you're posting a lot of BS. Your blog; you can do anything you want with it. But people need to know that actual owners like me say you're writing a bunch of baloney.
There's two groups of owners talking. The commercial/corporate owners and the private owners. Commercial owners have made statements publicly in the press stating their unhappiness just as private operators have stated their happiness. I believe for the most part it is true that the Eclipse 500 private pilots who actually received one like the performance of the aircraft, but the private pilot market was meant by Eclipse to be a secondary market compared to the commercial/corporate operations and it was a corporate pilot who was speaking.
Actual experience...there is no substitute :)
Let us know when you use your Eclipse for high utilization Part 135 operations.
To be effective the dispatch rate assumes flight crew who have enough experience and judgement to know when not to go. That would obviously exclude the type of demented moron who will keep pushing until he kills himself and his family.
To be effective the dispatch rate assumes flight crew who have enough experience and judgement to know when not to go
I'm willing to accept that private pilots are happy with their low utilization use. It really doesn't matter if they are absolutely thrilled to fly the FPJ as Eclipse/ETIRC isn't going to find 1000 private pilots per year to buy the FPJ. What really matters is that DayJet had 28 aircraft, but could only use 12 aircraft for commercial operations as commercial operations are what matters. Ken might have had a blast using DayJet's aircraft that couldn't be flown commercially, but commercial operations are what matters.
Part of the problem is that the Eclipse jets have proved tough to maintain. "There has been a lack of support for the aircraft from [the manufacturer], and problems with spare parts supply," Herp said. That hasn't been helped by a restructuring at Eclipse Aviation that, according to Herp, has consumed its maintenance staffers. On a typical day, Linear has only one or two of the four Eclipse jets in its fleet available for flights.
Hitting Turbulence at Linear Air
So who to believe - Ken or the CEO of Linear Air.
The problems faced by the VLJ manufacturing start-ups have not helped the situation. DayJet's launch was delayed for more than a year by the Eclipse 500's certification problems, and 16 of the 28 aircraft it had taken delivery of were awaiting a crucial avionics upgrade before they could be flown in revenue service.
Turbulent take-off for taxis
So DayJet couldn't even dispatch more than half their fleet for commercial operations due to lack of retrofits, but Ken can't see how commercial operations differ from private use. This has been confirmed with Eclipse's own description of the configurations of the former DayJet fleet that they have for sale.
“The company’s operations have also suffered as a result of Eclipse Aviation’s failure to install missing equipment or functionality or repair agreed technical discrepancies in accordance with the terms of DayJet’s aircraft purchase contract,” the statement said.
DayJet cancels all flights, eliminates most jobs
Perhaps Ken's aircraft is repaired enough for private use, but DayJet says that Eclipse didn't do repairs. Not that I'm one to automatically believe what DayJet says, but this has been confirmed by Linear Air as I cited up above.
we have over 200 hours on our airplane and it has had its share of problems ie Pitot static system. However our aircraft is pre-NG and it still has some pre-NG bugs. the plane flies well and is dependable.
If I recall you paid considerably less than the current sticker price for your aircraft. Assuming that someone is there to do the retrofits and maintenance (which I assume there will be someone to do that), you should do well using your aircraft for private use and will have probably gotten a deal or at least not done too badly after the cost of the retrofits. Even if the Eclipse airframe lasts 3500 hundred hours (a rumor that hasn't been validated) rather than 10,000 hours due to manufacturing problems that would give you many years to come with your rate of utilization.
Here's an Austrian charter company that uses the FPJ amongst other aircraft:
MaliAir
"...16 of the 28 aircraft it had taken delivery of were awaiting a crucial avionics upgrade before they could be flown in revenue service...."
hmm... wile they opened up new markets as fast as possible to obtain enough demand for so few planes????
Sounds like a story, to me.
Ken:
you wrote the same sort of things BEFORE you got your plane...
and...
How come you asked for a refund/put your second plane up for sale?
Fred asked,
"kennyBoy...if in the 6 months you've own your FPJ if you have flown 6 times and never missed one for technical reason = it doesn't mean that much"
First, Fred. Let's get one thing straight. It's KEN MEYER, not KennyBoy.
If anybody deserves a degrading nickname, it's a guy like you who is obviously so ashamed of who he is that he won't even post using his real name. What's the matter guy, you too chicken to say what you think under your own name?
Now to answer your question...
My plane has made 144 flights in the last 6 months. And not a single one was cancelled for maintenance.
Ken
It's really hard to use real names here. If you tell the TRUTH, the lawyers start howling...You can only use real names if you are trying to get someone to belive the impossible...or if it's a sworn statement to Congress!
My plane has made 144 flights in the last 6 months. And not a single one was cancelled for maintenance.
Actually there was no question asked, but what Fred stated was about you obviously wouldn't be booking a flight in the first place if you were in for maintenance/repairs. For instance obviously in discussion the dispatch rate of Eclipse that didn't include the aircraft that were permanently grounded from commercial flights unless they had the avionics upgrade so they were never booked in the first place for their flights to be cancelled. Perhaps not a day has gone by where the aircraft hasn't been available for you to use since you got it, but that would be the extreme exception rather than the rule of both private and commercial users.
The manufacturer says it is acting as exclusive broker for the aircraft, with the money for their sale to go to DayJet's lender. The Eclipse 500s are in three different configurations, and each has logged less than 450 hours.
The sale of the Dayjet aircraft will not help Eclipse in its drive to raise $200 to 250 million in new capital to pay off money owed to suppliers and restructure its production as it strives to achieve profitability.
"Right now we have enough working capital for the next two months," said Eclipse CEO Roel Peiper at the National Business Aviation Association show earlier this month. The credit crunch should not be an issue, he said, because the financing will be in the form of equity, not debt. "It's not credit-oriented," Peiper said...
Plans for the Russian plant hinge on securing delayed European certification for the Eclipse 500, which Peiper expects "this month or next." If it comes on line as planned in 2010, he expects the Ulyanovsk plant to satisfy European demand for the VLJ.
Aviation Week:Eclipse Selling VLJs
How funny that now Eclipse is claiming to be merely a broker and not an owner of the DayJet fleet. I guess Roel feels that if he couldn't get his hands on the money from selling the DayJet fleet in ETIRC territory he hopes that the depositors wont get the money either with his false claims of not having an ownership interest in the fleet, which previously Roel did claim Eclipse had an ownership interest and that was why the JetsAmerica deal didn't happen:
Speaking at the recent NBAA convention, Eclipse chairman and CEO Roel Pieper said that JetsAmerica can’t buy those jets without Eclipse’s explicit approval.
The airplanes don’t belong to DayJet, he said. They belong to UT Finance and Eclipse.
Eclipse says it holds liens on DayJet fleet
Also notice how the date for EASA certification has slipped...
Richard Aboulafia’s write-up is superb. It reads like a dime-store novel and proves once again that fact is stranger than fiction.
Meanwhile Ken loves his Eclipse. This might be expected from some piston owners moving into their first turbine aircraft. Set your expectations low enough and you are sure to be pleasantly surprised. The reaction of experienced pilots with previous turbofan experience is more telling.
The current state of the Eclipse may contribute to Ken’s dispatch reliability. Presumably with numerous yellow INOP stickers dotting the panel, there are fewer systems to fail. However, getting legally, safely up to the flight levels and back down without known ice approval must be a challenge.
I wish Ken would address the payload range issue some one rasied regarding his flight to Mexico... it would appear likely that legal load limit was busted.
Black Tulip--Here you go, my Eclipse 500 panel in flight. How many "INOP" stickers do you count?
AT--the flight was made entirely within weight limits. The plane is perfectly capable of flying non-stop from San Diego to Puerto Vallarta, however the photographer and his gear tallied over 350 lbs and the writer added almost 250 lbs with all his stuff. We opted for a fuel stop at MMLT. It's basic W&B stuff an airtaximan needs to understand.
Ken
Ken,
Excellent, your panel does not look like the Linear Air panel I saw a few weeks ago. You must have the best of breed.
Just as Ken's panel may not represent the "average" E500, a quote from the "Teal Group" article does not look anything like the average "spin" given to our governor, and his "investments":
"If the IG’s report is correct,
the FAA’s actions were reprehensible, a threat to the principals of good governance that keep society safe. It would be akin to the FDA deciding to approve possibly tainted milk because it came from a well-connected dairy. During recent congressional hearings, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson implied that jobs were more important than honesty, safety and good government. For possibly the first time, a US government entity provided equity cash for a private business."
Hopefully, a local editor will read the report . . . and/or this blog, and expand on the information for general publication.
gadfly
(A voter and taxpayer in the "Land of Enchantment", otherwise known as New Mexico. Or, since we now have "Joe the Plumber", should I call myself, "gadfly the machinist" . . . since this sort of thing impacts small business in no little way.)
Working Pilot said...
So, Baron, that's from someone who was there.
You must not have read what I wrote. I just calculated that DayJet needed about a 4.5% dispatch reliability to run their schedule with 28 Jets in the fleet.
If you bothered to read my post, you can see how revenue dispatch reliability can be calculated to be 98% in the DayJet case, even though it would be 4.5% on a WN-like operation.
If you read it too fast and missed it, OK. If you actually read it and didn't understand it, you actually have obviously not been involved in fleet dispatch, so your 75% figure was probably something you made up.
Either way, I was making no argument for the EA500 having high reliability - quite the contrary, in fact.
eclipsewhatever . . .
Can’t stand the message? . . . Destroy the messenger! And in the process, reveal how you spend your own intellectual energies!
gadfly
(That was truly pathetic!)
ASM said ... If you have 75% of the fleet available as spares the percentage of flights that get off on time is meaningless.
EXACTLY. Thank you. That is why Vern can say "98% reliability" and not be technically a lie. Day jst had 18 of 28 as spares, and even the 10 flying were only busy less than half the work day, therere they relaly had, at any one time 23 of 28 as spares for one revenue flight.
Furthermore, their MINIMAL delay window is 1 hr vs the airline 15 min.
Too bad Shane's working pilot friend is incapable of comprehending that.
ATTENTION "WORKING PILOTS!"
Its too bad about Day Jet...
I think the time for being disgruntled and mourning the loss of your job should be at its end.
Here's an idea GET A JOB.
Or you can sit at home and send Shane all of this "reliable" information about Eclipse.
And you should start refering to yourself as "unemployed pilots"
I'll buy the planes, you just fly em.
G'day
Ken said ... I have never cancelled a scheduled flight in my Eclipse. I guess that means I have a 100% dispatch reliability rate.
Also a perfectly plausible and believable post. Ken has an NG/ETT plane, and there is every reason to believe that for personal use (i.e. with plenty of time between flights to do maintenance and/or upgrades) the dispatch reliability of any plane is very, very high and the dispatch reliability of ANY 6 montns-old turbine is much, much better than that of a 25-year old piston.
Again all that is needed is perspective. For personal use with $1M to spend, I sincerelly doubt that Ken could find a better new plane then the EA500 (assuming it gets upgraded and supported going forward).
Ken Meyer said...
Black Tulip--Here you go, my Eclipse 500 panel in flight. How many "INOP" stickers do you count?
BTW, needs to be acknowledged that, with all its possible faults, Avio NG was really a very, very clean panel/cockpit which is fundamental to single-pilot operation safety. Take a look at the new PC12-NG pannel. Count the buttons and knobs, there are at least 4 times as many as on the EA500.
It is too bad Eclipse could not realize/execute the Avio full design.
EclipsePilotOMSIV said...
I think the time for being disgruntled and mourning the loss of your job should be at its end.
Thank you. So it is not just me that thinks that Shane's "working pilot" friend is actually one of the most uninformed pilots I've seen. If it is any indication of the airline rethreads that DayJet hired, I'm not surprised these guys were blowing so many tires.
Pleaasseeee - get a grip. That is a world-wide professional pilot shortage. 4 of my frinds just got hired by EK with incredibly favorable terms. One was a freshly minted ATP.
If this guys can't get a job pronto with calling his friends, he is a looooooser or sllllcker.
‘Ever notice how fast that part of the ad on the radio is “read” at lightening speed, to “explain” in legal terms everything that was just promised about that car is “something else”?
A long time ago, a man that today we would call “Nate”, was said by Another, of the highest authority, to be a man “without guile” (or “deceit”). As a small businessman, I would like to do business with such a man . . . someone who does not attempt to shade the truth . . . but a man with whom I can strike a deal as quick as clicking on the agreement while installing new software . . . knowing there is nothing in all that “legalese” that will come back to bite me later.
In the many years of being a small businessman, I have had the privilege of doing business with such men . . . unfortunately, they are in the minority. The interesting thing is that most of those men continued in business, through “fat” times and “lean”. The others . . . some stand out because of their lack of integrity, others . . . their faces and names fade . . . but most are distant memories . . . not necessarily good memories, but valuable in the sense of learning at a high price.
‘Maybe that’s the advantage of being “old”. The gadfly has had time to observe the “tried and true” . . . the little jet claimed much, and leaves with a massive deficit . . . financial?, . . . without question! . . . but beyond that, a deficit of the integrity of all those who contributed to the deceit . . . and the financial loss to literally hundreds . . . maybe thousands of families . . . who were “sucked” into the claims of a giant scheme.
Our governor . . . and others, looked left, and then right . . . in front and behind . . . the coast is clear! Or was it? There was at least one direction they failed to look! . . . and the direction they are going! This story is not over . . . not by many miles.
gadfly
(“Real” airplanes don’t require a contract written by a Philadelphia lawyer, to prove that they can fly, day after day after day, with a minimum concern . . . they simply do it, without fanfare . . . and they are a joy to behold!
For those who gained their first "taste" of aircraft manufacturing at the little bird factory in ABQ, there are many others that gained success by being fair and honest . . . and some of us have enjoyed a lifetime of work with honest companies of integrity. In the mean time, you may be the "victim" of a governor, and others, that wouldn't know "truth" if it bit him on the ankle.)
Yeh . . . I know that "lightening" should have been spelled "lightning" . . . that's the problem using the "Leave your comment" box . . . there is no spell check . . . no answering to another.
'Had I used "WordPerfect", I would have been held accountable . . . and at least had opportunity to correct a mistake.
The little bird factory has never been held to a higher authority. In Christian circles, we say a man in authority should be held "accountable" to others . . . he is not able to just "do his thing"! I'm on the "board" of a certain organization, a camp that ministers to local churches and young people . . . each summer it has a vital effect on hundreds . . . yes, thousands of young people and adults. The leaders of the camp answer to a few of us . . . and we attempt to make sure that everything is done in order and honesty. No single person can see the big picture at all times . . . we need the counsel of others.
Had Eclipse such a board, I dare say, this "critic blogsite" would have nothing to say.
gadfly
Gad...I agree...pathetic
I know folks on here get opinionated, but without even knowing the person, the crudeness of a child comes out. Sounds like the maturity of a real "pilot-in-command" I'd like to be in the plane with...NOT!
"EXACTLY. Thank you. That is why Vern can say "98% reliability" and not be technically a lie."
No, it was a blatant lie. It gave the impression that the dispatch reliability of each airplane, added together and averaged out, was 98%.
"That is a world-wide professional pilot shortage."
There is no pilot shortage. There has never been a pilot shortage. There will never be a pilot shortage. If there was a pilot shortage commuter airlines would not still be paying crap to fly junk. Geat real.
eclipso
A long time ago, I had some personal business at home . . . my Dad had died, and I caught up with my submarine in Japan, a month later. As I joined the “crew”, I was literally afraid to go ashore . . . knowing the “shore life” that awaited . . . afraid of my own frailties. A Sunday night, some shipmates invited me to go ashore, to a certain “Christian Serviceman’s Service Center (34-2 Wakamatsu-Cho . . . I still remember the address), and found “with effort” a place of refuge ‘midst the usual life of a submariner. The leader was a member of Navigators International . . . I got into the “Word”, and a wonderful series of events followed . . . countless hours beneath the ocean on patrol for reading and meditation. This is not the place for a sermon, so I will spare everyone the long details.
But the experience showed me that honesty and integrity involves facing personal weaknesses, and requires sometimes hard personal choices, that may not at the moment be “convenient”, and often come with a price . . . and even going against the grain of those closest to you . . . in this case, my own shipmates, who were determined to drag me to a low level . . . far lower than the readings on the depth gages.
For those involved with Eclipse, it’s easy to attempt a defense of something in which you find yourself, but it will take everything you’ve got . . . and then some, to “buck the trend” . . . at least bringing to justice those who have continued to exploit not just you, but others in this fiasco.
‘Not easy, and certainly not for everyone, but some of you . . . and you know who you are . . . have a responsibility, a “charter”, a “commission” . . . pick your term . . . to not only bring this thing to an end, but to assure that it doesn’t repeat.
gadfly
(A shipmate of old, is now my close friend . . . and now of “like mind”. Back then, he said, “We were watching you . . . observing your life.”)
"We opted for a fuel stop at MMLT."
thanks.
Care to provide the actaul weight numbers, so we know it was an "option" to stop to refuel?
.. as you describe.
Ken, I'm glad you love your e-500. Since you claimed to forever promised to buy a plane for your wife... why did you "opt" to sell or ask for a refund?
Just curious.
Thanks
Ken is very fortunate to have an aircraft with few problems.
But when he does have them, he'll get to find out firsthand just how long it is taking to get things fixed over at Eclipse. One owner had his in the shop for a nose tire and brakes - that should have taken a few days tops - and now ONE MONTH later has just had his plane returned - with cords showing on one of the main tires.
Oops, guess that means another trip back to ABQ! Hope you like those 1-way trips back and forth!
No aircraft is immune to problems. Just wait a little longer, Ken, and I'm sure you'll get a firsthand dose of Eclipse's famous "Customer Care". Then you'll understand what your fellow owners are complaining about.
avid,
I remember some strange flight reported here, where it was obvious Ken's plane had issues...
He somehow has received a refund when ther could not, and I am sure, somehow received special treatment all along regarding his plane.
He has always claimed being close to the truth (Vern), closer than the rest of mankind - all-knowing... so to speak.
Often wrong, duped, and chicken to pony up against mere logic and suspicion.
He's a real "die-hard"... in Vern's words.
So, yes, LUCKY for him, he somehow has a plane he could claim as "100% reliable".
I strongly doubt it... but even if so - he just got one of the non-lemons. Who knows, perhaps he did so much homework, he never accepted any crapola, like the rest did.
Maybe he squaks louder - seems to. Even here, where there's so little to gain.
My hats off to him - he played the game just like his butt-fk-buddy Vern - milk it until there ain't no milk left.
He asked and received a refund instead of acccepting his wife's ea50 plane...
He was a trade up from a crashed twin Cessna geriatric plane...
He was so sure posting stuff on this blog, until asked to wager any money - even $10K comapred to his "at risk" ea50 deposit... and chickened out, or KNEW better despite his false posts...
Should tell you something?
He does not seem to like being reminded of the reality associated with the risks inherent in buying one of those ea50 contraptions...
Nope, not at all... deny, deny, deny... as long as it suits your purpose
On a typical day, Linear has only one or two of the four Eclipse jets in its fleet available for flights.
That sounds like Linear Air is experiencing 25% to 50% aircraft availability.
Previous posts indicate that DayJet was experiencing similar aircraft availability.
But, once again Vern loses all credibility by claiming that DayJet aircraft were experiencing 98% reliability. I'd love to see the math that allows him to to go from 25% to 50% aircaft availability to 98% aircraft reliability... or the other way around.
But he once again demonstrates why Vern is Vern. He makes a claim for his aircaft, that anyone operating aircraft for hire knows to be impossible.
The question is, who is he trying to fool now?
ASM said ... If there was a pilot shortage commuter airlines would not still be paying crap to fly junk. Geat real.
There is a serious GLOBAL pilot shortage. EK, CX, SQ have ALL said that pilot shortages is a key growth inhibitor for them. They are poaching crews from BA, LH, RG, etc.
As for paying crap for commuter pilots, I beg to differ. They are simply not paid union-distorted extorsioninst salaries like the legacies. A 24 year old kid out of high-school+pilot-training/instruction or ex-mill can jump on a commuter plane and make an easy $35K/year. That compare very, very favorably with many other fields.
And the GLOBAL shortage will only increase. Just becasue the US airline industry is in decline, try not to think that it is the entire market. NetJets, B6, WN and almost all other major internation al airline are hiring and will continue to do so for decades.
I'm sad to say but the US airline industry, just like the US-brand auto industry (GM, Ford, Chrysler) are the exception to a high-growth global trend.
Oh, but don't think for a minute that NetJets or SQ will hire rethreaded unionized AA, NW, DL, UA crew members. With a few exceptions, their entitled attitudes are considered UNACCEPTABLE by customer-centric organizations.
Nice. You kiss your mother with that mouth?
Congratulations. You're now on the same level as eclipsepilotmsiv.
Yes, it really isn't appropriate here.
Am I the only one that read this?
http://www.charterx.com/resources/article.aspx?id=3577
When I have to fly the Eclipse, I am on the edge of my seat waiting for the next disaster to take place. For instance, I've been flying for over 30 years and have never had to go on emergency oxygen, except during routine training. Since flying the Eclipse, I've had to go on emergency oxygen twice now due to fumes in the cockpit and in the cabin. Eclipse seemingly has no idea how to fix these aircraft problems.
Since flying the Eclipse, I've had to go on emergency oxygen twice now due to fumes in the cockpit and in the cabin. Eclipse seemingly has no idea how to fix these aircraft problems.
Yes, I had noticed that. Without knowing where the fumes are coming from, I'm wondering if the root cause could be traced to kluge redesign of the FPJ due to switching from the Williams to the P&W engines. I think that is the root cause of many of the FPJ's problems.
Thanks, Ken, for letting us know your plane has flown for 150 hours with NO major maintenance. Imagine that - no major maintenance on a brand new plane. Remarkable! That just proves what you have been telling us all along - that Eclipse is the reliable aircraft that Vern claimed it is and you were right and everyone else is wrong.
All those people with their Eclipses parked at ABQ for weeks are there because they like spicy food, not for maintenance.
Thanks for clearing that up.
KennyBoy ...
1° : Fred is my real name , so i think you grossly overshot on this one ...
2° KennyBoy is NOT degrading , it is affectionate ! mainly because to me , you sound like myself when i could buy my first sport-car ... which was a big piece of nothing , but was the first ... a bit like the first girl(or boy/boy&girl/girl,i don't care!) many of us have kissed for the first time in life ...at this very moment she did seems to be so perfect ,but then later , with experience = was she that cute ?
3° be a chicken : let me explain you one thing = we are very different , by culture and backgrounds , i am the type to think that fighting for expressing your hopelessness and inability to understand something or someone is putting you back to cavemen status of development ... ( first shoot , then talk or/and try to understand )
am i chicken for such thinking ? may be ; but it is none of your concern !
at last , i can give you a hint : i have been sworn in the rising sun of a place called Massada ...
if you have any idea of what it means ... just a little tougher than root-canal problems or extraction ...
4° you like your Toy , probably got a sweet deal with maintenance because your involvement ... (was it shari who was making cookies for the last gathering ?)
fine !
is that a reason enough to buy one ? = NOPE !
is that a reason enough to consider it as safe ? = NOPE !
is that a reason to consider it finished ? NOPE !
is that a reason to consider it as financially with any kind of interests ? = NOPE !
is that reason enough to consider it as a good toy for owners ? May be ...
you see my friend , this is one of the major difference in mentality between us ...
you have a toy , you think everyone should bow in front of you for your cleverness ...
when it doesn't happen , you try to find any "word-distortion" to make it look better ...
i basically don't give a damn about whoever think whatever about me ... i like something = i just get it ; if it is OK = i enjoy it ; if it is not what i thought = i just drop it !
but never i lie to others to convince myself of being so clever for the choice i made !
AN URGENT 'REMINDER'
Right from when I 'took up the baton' I posted this on the blog home page:-
As a guide for new bloggers, be aware that we have some standards around here. Name calling is childish and will be dealt with.
Some of the terms used in recent comments are on the borderline of what any reasonable person would regard as fair comment.
I would also remind people that the blog email,
eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
is always available if you have concerns. Fans and critics alike of EAC know that they will always get a response.
A number of you used this address to draw my attention to one particular comment by eclipsepilotomsiv. I have therefore taken the appropriate action. I would respectfully ask the person using that identity to treat others with the courtesy they would expect for themselves.
Shane
Baron, There is no pilot shortage. There may be a shortage of KC-135 or C-17 instructor pilots with thousands of hours of jet time and Master's Degrees who want to leave the USAF and work for dregs like Gene Tilton of United or any of the other near-criminal heads of US airlines, but there will always be high-school graduates lined up to fill the right seat of commuter airlines. Also, Baron, many of us regularly travel outside of the US and some of us (gasp!) work for foreign airframe and engine companies. Your all-knowing "citizen of the world" attitude is getting a little thin.
There's something I just noticed. Eclipse is selling all 28 DayJet aircraft rather than 27 as DayJet had originally said that they'd keep one for the execs to fly around in. Did DayJet return the last aircraft voluntarilly or involuntarilly?
A comment concerning DayJet's dispatch reliability.
It is telling, if true, that DayJet apparently had such a weak contract with EAC.
Any professional airline organization, for example, would send out a technical RFP to several OEMs and make them compete for an aircraft order.
Among numerous contracted performance-based, contracted demands would be dispatch reliability; flight performance and load capabilities; various ownership costs; AOG support; parts; and MRO. All of these items would be contracted under strict tolerance.
If DJ's fleet was as unreliable and technically dysfunctional as it has been claimed, this only reinforces the strange relationship between EAC and DayJet (effective risk partners) but also a suprising lack of technical competence in activating a Part 135 commercial operation with a fleet obtained under such apparently undisciplined terms.
It is baffling that DJs board and investors, some of whom had commercial aviation experience, would allow the deployment of capital of such magnitude, under such apparently speculative and unprofessional fleet contracting terms. All of the issues that DJ may have experienced could have easily been risk-managed by a careful, competitive and tightly bound performance contract. For example, even if a "VLJ" wasn't currently available but for the E500, likely other OEMs would have provided bridge aircraft on very favorable terms to DJ (or others for such a large order) while the core fleet was being built to contract, including to Part 135 or even 121,conformity.
It is baffling that DJs board and investors, some of whom had commercial aviation experience, would allow the deployment of capital of such magnitude, under such apparently speculative and unprofessional fleet contracting terms.
I think the reason for going with Eclipse was for PR. DayJet got tons of worldwide primetime publicity as well as lots of ink spilled about it, which most of this PR was probably due to being tied with Eclipse. Eclipse also worked with DayJet on various other things, such as providing material for them to hype the air taxi model. However, no amount of PR could save DayJet. It never ceased to amaze me that with so much publicity that they got so few people registering, let alone flying. If DayJet's business model had actually been viable, they would have done great, but their business model simply isn't viable.
Deep Blue,
It is telling, if true, that DayJet apparently had such a weak contract with EAC.
Any professional airline organization, for example, would send out a technical RFP to several OEMs and make them compete for an aircraft order.
You will recall that Ed's parting shot blamed EAC for failing to deliver promised 'repairs and upgrades' to the fleet.
However, I would also direct you to the earlier part of this blog, and indeed its' illustrious predecessor aka 'Stan's blog' where we have discussed the unique nature of the relationship between Ed and Vern at great length.
I think it's now clear that this relationship was based on a) Vern needing a huge order to convince new investors and victims (sorry, customers) that EAC was the 'next big thing' in business and b) Ed needing to convince his investors that 'air taxi' was the 'next big thing' in aviation.
In other words, the whole 'order' was self serving on both sides, and as such escaped normal business review by professionals.
Shane
Dave/Shane: good points.
A couple of replies:
1. I suspect the "upgrades/repairs" for the DJ fleet were for out-of-conformity items on aircraft that were delivered in incomplete status; this may have been separate from any normal flight and maintenance operations guarantees/contracts that a smart commercial operator would have insisted on.
However:
2. One might add that the DayJet-EAC relationship is instructive in that DJ or any other such fleet operator has little if any recourse under contractual failure if the OEM is a thinly capitalized new venture; indeed, if DJ had a fleet consisting of EMB P100s for example, you could imagine the kind of financial recourse the commercial operator would have against a multi-billion publicly traded corporation.
Sadly, it appears DJ's only recourse was to park the planes and walk away. Of course, it's early in the game and lawsuits could start flying; but by the time a judgment could be enforced, EAC will likely be out of business.
i wrote it before :
the relationship EAc/DJ was totally incestuous ...
but if Ed didn't have other choice than walk away , in my opinion , it is because Dj was trying to set-up a mega-business without putting too much kopeck in the story ...
surely self-servicing both interest !
Vern could tout about "thousand( s)of orders" while i suspect the only "cash-backed" orders was from victims (sorry gullible customers)
Ed could start touting about the future of "Air-jet-taxi" without putting much dosh in line ...
very close to why EAC felt no priority to be given to DJ ( never heard the saying : "with a free horse never look the horse's teeth" ?)
why DJ was hopeless as to "force" EAC to maintain and deliver as promised ...
pretty obvious !
I've been seeing a few 'new' N-numbers flying lately. Today is the first time I've seen N370EA. It's registered to PACIFIC INTERNATIONAL VEGETABLE MARKETING INC.
Maybe this is the new company that will be selling VLJ's - LOL.
Dave,
There's something I just noticed. Eclipse is selling all 28 DayJet aircraft rather than 27 as DayJet had originally said that they'd keep one for the execs to fly around in. Did DayJet return the last aircraft voluntarilly or involuntarilly?
A response for you, from someone who was there:-
You can tell Dave that all 28 planes were moved to the EAC ramp in Gainesville on September 19th. This was voluntary and out of disgust with EAC.
No plane was withheld for personal use. Ed has a Lear 60 for that purpose.
It might also be noted that Ed is not a pilot.
All of this information is public domain. The Lear is chartered through Winged Foot Services. If one looks into Winged Foot, one would also notice that there is a Challenger Jet also. The Challenger was sold.
Hope this provides some clarity. I too noticed the original announcement that one of the FPJ's was being held for DayJet use, but this confirms that all 28 were indeed parked up.
In the recent past, and per EAC's announcement earlier this week, I presume most if not all the DayJet fleet are now in or around ABQ.
Can anyone provide eyewitness reports from that neck of the woods, to confirm?
Shane
I've been seeing a few 'new' N-numbers flying lately. Today is the first time I've seen N370EA. It's registered to PACIFIC INTERNATIONAL VEGETABLE MARKETING INC.
Here's the Yahoo Finance profile for them and here they are on FlightAware. Apparently this aircraft was sold by JetsAmerica. Here's the ad saying it has been sold. Finally here's the FAA registry of the aircraft. Seeing how it is SN 125, it isn't a new aircraft just a new owner.
You can tell Dave that all 28 planes were moved to the EAC ramp in Gainesville on September 19th. This was voluntary and out of disgust with EAC.
Thanks for the info! Now Eclipse has one more aircraft it can sell to pay back to depositors. If UT is owed $500K per aircraft and Eclipse has an average sale price of $600K that would mean they'd have almost $3 million to pay out for refunds (and even more if they're getting fees as a broker). That would cover 20 refunds @ $150K per refund.
dave :
#Now Eclipse has one more aircraft it can sell to pay back to depositors.#
take this as what it is : a joke !
but what kind of marijuana are you on ?
EAC paying back ? must be strong stuff ! ;-)
Fred,
Let us examine his recurring proposal by analogy. The human priorities are air, water and food – in that order. Dave has suggested that Eclipse forgo cash needed now to stay in business (air), for improved customer relations in years ahead should the company survive (food).
Niner zulu wrote, "Thanks, Ken, for letting us know your plane has flown for 150 hours with NO major maintenance. Imagine that - no major maintenance on a brand new plane. Remarkable!"
I did not write that. My plane has certainly had maintenance in the 6 months I've owned it. I wrote that I had never cancelled a scheduled flight in my Eclipse. My plane has been in for service bulletins several times. I suspect service bulletins for defective supplier parts like the Harco pitot components are the main reason for Eclipse 500's parked in Albuquerque on occasion.
But I'm guessing you already knew that. You just wanted to twist my words to make it look like I said my plane didn't need any maintenance when of course it did.
Correctly understanding the written and spoken word are important prerequisites for any pilot, and it's right there in the FARs: "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language."
I have noticed something about many guys who fly turboprops as I think you do. They seem to be reluctant to move up to a jet because they'd have to pass an ATP-level checkride. That's not hard when you're a competent pilot, but you do have to understand the English language properly :)
Ken
But I'm guessing you already knew that. You just wanted to twist my words to make it look like I said my plane didn't need any maintenance when of course it did.
It was you who made a big deal about not canceling any flights for maintenance:
Shane *I* was there. I've owned an Eclipse 500 for 6 months. I have over 150 hours on my plane.
I have never cancelled a scheduled flight in my Eclipse. I guess that means I have a 100% dispatch reliability rate. I think you're posting a lot of BS. Your blog; you can do anything you want with it. But people need to know that actual owners like me say you're writing a bunch of baloney.
And then on the other hand saying of you course you've been grounded:
But I'm guessing you already knew that. You just wanted to twist my words to make it look like I said my plane didn't need any maintenance when of course it did.
If you're aircraft is in the shop, you're not going to be scheduling any flights, so you've just admitted to creating a tautology in order to get to your "100% dispatch reliability rate."
Ken,
In fact, you have NO SCHEDULED Flights... Scheduled service is under Part 121... using the aviatin English language.
Thanks for making a mockery out of yourself, your posts, the english laguage and aviation terms all in one string.
You, as usual make the blogs point about "who would buy such a plane" and "how to spin things to make the conventional meaning irrelevant to aviation from no on - lowest commom..."
Piece of work
-take what you say at face value at find misunderstanding all over the place - use common sense plus some trust and get burned - on the other hand, doubt the boublespeak, and be safe.
Thanks, Ken, we now understand
BT :
i understand your analogy ...
but it look like EAC more than you thought ...
if water is representing the customers , then i am afraid there isn't any ...! ;-)
(Nazi found in Labo-camp that an average person can last 2 to 3 weeks without any food , but only 3 days without any water ...!)
Well, AT, I guess you're not a pilot either 'cause you don't appear to be able to "read, write and understand the English language!"
I've had 144 scheduled flights, and not a single one of them was under Part 121.
That's because "scheduled" means:
"plan something for a particular time: to plan something to happen at a particular time"
[Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.]
I've never scheduled a flight and cancelled it. That's a 100% dispatch reliability rate.
Twist it all you want. The bottom line is still: a guy who actually owns the Eclipse, who knows 10,000% more than you ever will about owning the Eclipse, says he never had to cancel a scheduled flight for maintenance.
And all you can do is writhe with pain and try to make it sound like it isn't what it is.
Who is the bigger piece of work? A guy like me who says what his experience actually was or a guy like you who doesn't like to hear anything positive about the jet and labors to belittle the report?
Ken
KennyBoy :
a strange question is tickling my brain ...
i speak only a few minors foreign languages ... can i be a pilot ?
well ...
#I've never scheduled a flight and canceled it. That's a 100% dispatch reliability rate.#
(by the way , i am not a doctor and not a pilot : but Canceled is ONLY with one L)
how can you cancel something that was not scheduled ?
Hey - look who's headed to Oshkosh. It's EAA board meeting time. Funny - the EAA website still lists Vern as the CEO of Eclipse.
Guys, guys, guys
We write and contribute to the blog because we love airplanes and flying and feel Vern did our hobby/profession a big disservice. If most of us met face to face, we'd probably be friends and have many common interests. I really like having Ken back writing about his plane- if it was supported, I'd love to be flying one.
Can't we be civil and disagree like adults?
It feels like Eclipse has slipped into a true non-manufacturing mode and will probably never build another plane in its present corporate form. But... there are probably enough planes built and design improvements done to attract a buyer of two in bankruptcy who will support the planes and build some more after a couple of years of redesign to deliver completed aircraft. At $2.5 million, with good support, it will be a nice owner flown plane with 150-200 per year production.
I'd like to hear Ken's reaction to the Aboulafia article and his perception of the future of Eclipse-- without the flames on his every word.
Turboprop_pilot
BTW- I'm quite proficient in English, even though I fly a lowly turboprop. (I even have spell checking in this comment box!)
"The [man] doth protest too much, methinks." . . . apologies to Shakespeare, and Gertrude in Hamlet.
And, “methinks” the man is troubled by an earlier love among airplanes.
gadfly
(150 hours doth not true love make! . . . and what is “major maintenance”, among friends?)
("turbo . . . " is on to something. We await with bated breath, the wisdom forthcoming from our owner/pilot!)
Fred complained,
"i am not a doctor and not a pilot : but Canceled is ONLY with one L"
Actually, Fred, I think you'll find cancelled and canceled are both correct. However, when used as a first person singular pronoun, the letter "i" should always be capitalized :)
Are these are the most significant questions and comments you have for an Eclipse owner? I think it is time for me to disappear again for a while.
Ken
Fred,
bonne nuit
my american english isn't good at all.
In Europe a flight plan is filed
( that means you transmit your flight plan to ATC in flight or to AIS before starting - it is not scheduled!). If you cannot start because of problems, you will cancel the flight plan. This might be colloquially called a "scheduled flight" is cancelled.
I think Ken wanted to say, that he never needed to cancel a flight plan when using the FPJ.
But - he is acting like VR - he did not say: When ever I was at the airport and wanted to fly my FPJ I could do so. He didn't say anything about "unscheduled flights"!
Ohhh Ken ist a dentist:
"Sorry, it will only hurt a little bit!"
Yes - just at the very beginning and an hour later! And in between???
Julius
Ken,
I thought you were referng to schedule, as in, a "scheduled flight" per the regs. Otherwise, why be sp nit picky about the definition?
By definition, every flight you have flown as "non-scheduled" and "on-demand". There is a difference, you know.
There is some "scheduled" service under part 135, and all 121 flights are scheduled.
Your flights are by definition "unscheduled".
This is the case, no matter how nasty you are about it.
When you write:
"I did not write that. My plane has certainly had maintenance in the 6 months I've owned it. I wrote that I had never cancelled a scheduled flight in my Eclipse. My plane has been in for service bulletins several times. I suspect service bulletins for defective supplier parts like the Harco pitot components are the main reason for Eclipse 500's parked in Albuquerque on occasion."
You are just being a silly micro-jet parsing owner, who like to obfuscate the facts as much as possible.
Do you really NOT KNOW why your plane has been down for maintenance?
Do you really not know the difference between scheduled and unscheduled service?
Or are you just being dishonest - that there have been timea your plane was gounded or in for unscheduled maintenance, or you were unable to fly due to the lack of FIKI... and you could not just tell us this?
You fly under part 91... which is by definition unscheduled, Ken. Hiding behind this, or the choices you make to not fly when your plane is just too dangerous, in the shop, or unfit?
I'm glad you love your choice... even IF you chose to sell your wife's plane, or ask for a refund... curious, but not at all uncharacteristic of you. Some how, your words do not correspond to your actions, and you seem to say whatever serves YOU best, at the time.
Eventhough, you will not address the hard questions, belly up to a wager, or even refrain from silly and nasty remarks.
Typical EA-50 owner profile?
I hope not.
Ken:
I would not make fun of these guys - they communicate mch better than you do, apparently since you are soooo misunderstood... and its not their first language.
BTW, I can read and write in 4 languages, so f-off regarding my english, kennyboy.
Explain the load on your overwight plane to mexico... or how about selling your second EA50, or demanding and receiving a refund? How does THIS all work?
Thanks
So the logic in some quarters is that if you're grounded and don't schedule flights, you've got 100% dispatch reliability because no flights are scheduled. Based on that standard, this place currently has 100% dispatch reliability. DayJet sure must have been thrilled with their non-Avio NG that they couldn't use in commercial service because they had 100% dispatch reliability on them!
After nearly 30 years with the FAA, associate administrator for aviation safety Nick Sabatini will retire effective January 3, the agency announced today.
Sabatini, Leverenz To Retire from FAA Posts
But maybe the word, “cancelled” or “canceled” , isn’t really the word at all, but “concealed” . . . or maybe, “revealed”.
It’s fun to play with words . . . easy to take on a Frenchman, but some of us simply wish to “peel” (like an onion) the word down to the basic truth, and “peal” forth (like ringing a bell) facts . . . without “parsing”(carefully dividing), yet with “sparsity” (few) of words . . . ‘just a full revelation of the subject under discussion, and without guile.
The little aircraft has both good and bad attributes . . . it did not drop, complete, out of heaven. A person who actually owns and flies the thing has a responsibility to share both the good, and the bad . . . or they should refrain from any comments. Lives may depend on the casual word “dropped” in conversation from these discussions.
In time, someone will be hurt . . . or killed. It’s the nature of aviation. Some of us here, would like to understand what may contribute to that happening . . . and as much as possible, prevent it . . . either with the little jet from ABQ, or at least with other aircraft in the future.
Not everyone who comes to this watering hole has a subversive agenda. Some of us would have welcomed Eclipse to ABQ, had they been honest and “up front” from the beginning. But since that early time, which now seems so long ago, much has happened to “darken the skies” . . . not over Albuquerque, but over the general aviation industry, and the FAA.
It these comments are wrong, then we need solid evidence to reverse those impressions . . . and not ‘just the “spin” that has been on-going for the last few years.
gadfly
(Things I have learned from this website . . . aircraft ownership is not connected to understanding of aerodynamics, proper use of the English language, good business relationships, decisions based on intelligent comprehension of the facts . . . and other human foibles. Nor does it take wisdom to enter into a discussion on any given subject. And I continue to learn, and be amazed. To be continued . . . !)
The Vern 'tail number' competition
Don't forget to email your suggestions to the usual address.
Shane
Ken,
Looks like I ruffled your feathers again!
Yes, I am terribly frightened of not being able to pass an ATP level checkride, since I've only flown since 1983 and only have 2,200 hours in 11 different owned aircraft.
OK, I'm being sarcastic but come on, gimme a break!
The reason I don't fly a jet already is because I don't need one bad enough to tie up $3 million right now. That's what it would take for me to buy the only real VLJ available, which is the Mustang. And frankly, I'm not that gung-ho about it either. True, your E500 cost you somewhat less, but you probably know that I wouldn't seriously consider buying a half-finished plane from anyone, especially the bunch of crooks that are running EAC and screwing your friends in the club right and left. I don't consider the E500 a bargain at ANY price.
No, I'd rather wait and let the market sort itself out. I'm in no hurry to be an early adopter and go through the pain that your friends are going through. It's OK to be early on technology like cell phones (love my iPhone 3G) but when it comes to aircraft, I want something that has been proven to be bulletproof.
By the way, I've never had to cancel a flight that I have scheduled in any of the aircraft I have owned - then again, I didn't schedule flights when I knew the airplane had a problem. Amazing how that 100% dispatch reliablity can be obtained! ;-)
Apparently, he has character that you are lacking
Though I agree with you about watching language on the blog, I wouldn't say that because someone has a salty tongue they automatically lack character. Thing what that would mean about the navies of the world ;)
jus zis,
shit, you are right, my friend.
Sorry -
Unveiling of their new Eclipse product line soon to be available on website.
Products include: Tow bar, Static Vent Covers, Pre-maid Carpet runner for all interior configurations and colors,Engine and aircraft Bras,leather pitot tube covers and more.
EOC:Rocky Mountain Sport Jets Harvest Moon Fly-In
So do the bras go on the maids?
( never heard the saying : "with a free horse never look the horse's teeth" ?)
Fred -
There is a saying that is sometimes used: "Something got lost in translation". An example of this would be when Chevrolet decided to start selling its Nova model in Mexico, and wondered why nobody bought them ( for the uninitiated, "No va" means "doesn't go" in Spanish ).
This is not the first time that you have invoked the opposite rule: "Something extra was added in translation". I'm struggling to think of specific examples, but memory fails me right now. Let it suffice to say that "Fred-isms" add considerably to the enjoyability of reading this blog. Keep up the good work.
( For the record, the saying goes "never look a gift horse in the mouth" in this part of the world. )
Pull around to the second window,
DI
Unveiling of their new Eclipse product line soon to be available on website.
Products include: Tow bar, Static Vent Covers, Pre-maid Carpet runner for all interior configurations and colors,Engine and aircraft Bras,leather pitot tube covers and more.
Wouldn't this be a good time to introduce appropriate Eclipse 500 accessories?
Instead of a tow bar, how 'bout a tow rope? For getting the FPJ to ABQ on those days when the "military-grade" FADECs stop talking to the Gameboy-grade Avio system ( STC approved for looping the front of the rope around the empennage of any turbine-powered Cessna, including the Caravan ).
Instead of pitot & static vent covers, offer a pitot / static port orbiting brain laser ( to convince the existing pitot / static ports that they were actually made by Rosemount, and should therefore work when it's wet out )?
Or extra-large headrests - all the better to lean that outsized FPJ-owner ego against?
For the left front seat, a bottom cushion that's cut away between the thigh bolsters - to make room for the enormous cojones necessary to fly the plane when you haven't checked your email for AD notices for a few days?
Or perhaps an appropriate inspirational message for the 60-percenters from the Masters of Motivational Thinking?
Just a few random thoughts. Maybe the more enlightened among us can come up with more? I smell a good opportunity here...
Would you like the combo?
DI
DeepBLue said ... Any professional airline organization, for example, would send out a technical RFP to several OEMs and make them compete for an aircraft order
DeepBlue, I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. For example, AA just ordered 48+52 B789s with no competitive bid RFP. AA has a preferential pricing agreement with Boeing and will buy from them (738s, 789s, 77Es) based on that agreement. WN, DL, CO, etc do the same.
NetJets similarly buys the same way from Cessna and Fedex buys Caravans from Cessna the same way.
You will find out that, in the US, a competitive airline bid-based buy is the exception rather then the rule.
ATM said ... In fact, you have NO SCHEDULED Flights... Scheduled service is under Part 121... using the aviatin English language.
Be careful there ATM - I don't wont to start a "proper English" fight (I'm bound to lose that), but in fact there are AIRLINE REVENUE SCHEDULE FLIGHTS UNDER PART 135 as well as 121. You need to brush up on part 135 limitations a bit. Hint: Why do you think so many commuter planes like the BE1900 had EXACTLY 19 seats?
fred said...
i speak only a few minors foreign languages ... can i be a pilot ?
Fred, given the non-linear and verbose way you write, I'd say you definetely CANNOT fly IFR in the New York airspace. A New York Tracon controller is very likely to make you land, drive to the airport and beat the crap out of you - no kidding ;)
Baron, be careful about throwing stones when you live in a glass house. YOU forgot about DOT Part 380, which allows scheduled flights using chartered aircraft.
DI said ... Chevrolet decided to start selling its Nova model in Mexico, and wondered why nobody bought them ( for the uninitiated, "No va" means "doesn't go" in Spanish ).
Another MBA urban myth. The Nova didn't sell because it was a an overpriced piece of crap for the Mexican market.
In fact, Nova (single word with accent on first sillable vs "no vá" two words and accent on last sillable), brings an association of "new", "modern" to any Mexican. In fact, in the automotive field, Nova was (is still) the high performance Gasoline formulation sold in Pemex gas stations.
But hey, it is easier to perpetuate the myth no make a "cultural blunder" point.
Too bad it isn't true. In fact, the Nova actually sold pretty well in Mexico and better than expected in Venezuella and other spanish speaking countries. But in the end, its reputation as a piece of Detroit crap caught up with it.
Shadow, I plead ignorance re DOT 380. Honestly, I do.
But if it is not an FAR, I can guarantee you there are one (or more) controlling FARs to those flights. E.g. 380 is for applies to Joe's tour wanting to arrange a charter flight operated by NW which in turn has a valid 121 certificate and ATP pilots. (did I get close - I really have no clue what 380 is)
But to be fair, the FAR 135 knowledge standards for a guy posting under "Airtaximan" should be higher than someone posting as "Baron95"? No? ;)
Another MBA urban myth.
Well I'll be dipped in spit. Maybe Whytech can tell us if it's also a Hah-vud MBA urban myth.
BTW, if you're going to quote a source verbatim, it's considered polite to give some attribution, m'kay? You must have skipped politeness class that day.
Pay at the first window,
DI
Did I fail to provide the source of a quote somewhere?
If you are referring to the Nova bit, it is well documented in multiple places. Actually, you should read David Wilton's book on debunking these myths - there are sooooo many.
As to the Nova being a piece of crap, there are probably 3 million americans that probably said that before me - the ones that actually bought or drove one.
baron said:
#A New York Tracon controller is very likely to make you land, drive to the airport and beat the crap out of you#
baron , no worries about me being a pilot in New-york space ...
since i have got a french passport , am i already being too diseased to be considered as safe ?
I have as well a german passport , which makes me already more than suspicious (in E.U. there is no problems about such , we are millions in this case ...)
If you add-up the fact than i was born in a Muslim country ...
i would venture to say that if i am not beaten by an ATC staff , i would probably be deported to some Caribbean island by some of your Alphabet soup Agencies (the one supposed to be clever !), for some "free" long vacations (free in that meaning would be for me only , as you my friend , would pay a lot to provide for me !) if not directly shot by a trigger-happy-frenzy fighter-pilot ...
so being a pilot in New-York airspace ... thanks , but no thanks !
Dave I.
thanks for helping me on the translation !
sometimes i get lost in the different versions of the same saying in different languages ...
(even if sometimes , i have to confess, i like to play a bit : candid !)
so once again , thanks , and yes i will take the extra-mayo with my french-fries ...;-))
(which for my french part sound quite strange as in France , everybody is convinced that the best french-fries are from Belgium ... silly me ... i forgot ... most of the ones on the other side don't know where and what is Belgium ! ;-)) )
9Z
#The reason I don't fly a jet already is because I don't need one bad enough to tie up $3 million right now #
WONDERFUL !
someone asking himself BEFORE buying "why do i need this for ?" !!! ;-))
you see , dear friend , it seems that few ones need to remember a simple rule :
"often , better is the worst enemy of best "
you need to be truly intelligent to ask for yourself "do i need this?" ...
A former Eclipse employee wrote a detailed letter to the ABQ Journal about Eclipse:
ABQ Journal:State may be out $20M to Eclipse
Click "Trial Premium Pass" to watch a short ad and then go to the letter. The employee confirms that Eclipse is $610 million debt and cites the source as from the employee's stock options material. It also talks about the state losing $20 million and DayJet.
But to be fair, the FAR 135 knowledge standards for a guy posting under "Airtaximan" should be higher than someone posting as "Baron95"? No? ;)
First, Airtaximan is nothing of the sort. He sits behind a desk in Florida and is not even a pilot. Therefore, NOo standards apply.
Second, the whole arguement on dispatch is simply for the sake of arguing. Everyone here knows that in Ken's context "dispatch" means: Can I go flying when I show up at the airport?
Now stop being morons.
Second, the whole arguement on dispatch is simply for the sake of arguing. Everyone here knows that in Ken's context "dispatch" means: Can I go flying when I show up at the airport?
Now stop being morons.
Exactly - Ken isn't going to show up at the airport when his aircraft is grounded in the shop, so his whole tautology about maintenance is utterly ridiculous.
Baron, to be clear, my point was NONE of Kens flights were scheduled. NONE were under part 135 or 121 - all were part 91.
Yes you can have scheduled service under part 135 - the interpretation of the FAR is less than 5 trips per week on a schedule, and you are OK. There are DOT regs as well, like 380, which apply... there are othere,, it does not matter for this discussion.
As it applies to Ken, its irrelevant.
Ken is playing with the word "Scheduled" - so, I'll play along.
I find it tough to believe he was never diverted, inconvenienced or delayed flying without FIKI, a maintenance issue (scheduled or unscheduled) or grounding.
This is the point. Maybe he is the luckiest EA50 owner that ever was? Maybe he really never planned or had a need to fly and the plane let him down?
Like someone here said, if you never plan to fly (schedule a flight) when the plan is down, broken, unfit for the weather, etc... I guess you have 100% dispatch reliability and you love the plane. Even if you never take it out of the hangar.
turned&burnt :
i don't think such adjective are really making it here ...
as for KennyBoy and his concept of dispatch , as far as i agree about what you could mean ...
if he is a pilot , he should use proper english !(i know :that's an easy one ;-) )
especially when it concern EA500 ; EAC ; and its history of using words in a too evasive manner or leading to a specific perception , having nothing to do with reality and down-to-earth judgment ...!
you see this is actually the core of the problem :
EA500 designed for Owners to fly in nice conditions , in a summer afternoon (but not too late in the afternoon , don't you pull the cork too fast !) to make nice circles around airfield ...
while being sold as a capable Air-Taxi jet ...
(funnily enough , this concept has been sold to the very ones who had nothing to do with Air-Taxi= owners !)
and having a development paid by the first category to try to make the second rich !
you see this kind of imprecision leading gullible victims (sorry , customers) to draw hasty conclusions on qualities which have never existed ...
so , with my very limited of the english idiom , i (sorry KennyBoy : I) would recommend not being confused between "readiness" and "availability" ...
one being the fact of putting the key into engine-start , and to hear noise from it , then to decide if going to make a few of those circles around airfield ...
the other one being a little more problematic as it means a "commercial and regulations" concept of work , inspections and follow-up of a plane which is not going to be used casually , but on a day-to-day basis (not to say hour-to-hour)
which is a totally different world and means that EA500 is/was NOT fitted for high utilization !
for a dentist or any owner , it can be great to love flying this bird on Sundays , eventually for a very few days while having a long week-end (does it exist in USA ?) but to be used as a tool for transportation in the meaning of gaining profits and customers : sorry DJ has shown how inefficient the bird is/was .
so please before calling others the way you did , please no more under-lying , out of the woods statements and lies by omission !
dave :
very good link !
this is surely clever enough to understand the proper use of credit ...!
still , i worry for Mr Gad ... $20 Millions ? ouch ...that's got to leave some trace in for the taxpayers !
Ps: Mr Gadfly if the situation get too bad , or you are getting too pissed-off paying tax for others to enjoy luxury boat race : i eager to grant you "political" asylum in one of my places ... ;-))
Another one heads for Europe.
My rant on Eclipse was printed in the Albuquerque paper ...though I'm not sure why they took so long.
http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/231126579608biz10-23-08.htm
Another one heads for Europe
Here's the company that is acting as a trustee:
Southern Aircraft Consultancy
Seeing how they're acting as a trustee for almost 500 aircraft, it seems like they've got a good thing going. The owner is basically making $500K per year for simply being a US citizen and filing paperwork.
yes , dave ...
good business !
too bad next year this is going to be zipped ...
As it applies to Ken, its irrelevant. Ken is playing with the word "Scheduled" - so, I'll play along.
So there it is, Airtaximan arguing just for the sake of arguing. Childish.
By the way, Airtaximan didn't dispute that he works behind a desk in Florida and is NOT a pilot.
ok , guys ...
this morning someone asked me about bits and pieces from EASA ...
i asked the few i know , most seems to be quite pissed-off with the subject ...
ok , after a bit of talking this what i understood :
Easa , unlike FAA , wants to certify Vlj (note for the die-hard : VLJ in general , nothing particular about Fpj !) with the regulations already existing + some new standards that have to be implemented for that special "product niche" (which , in my view , sound like Easa itself believe that Vlj is to remain a "niche" = meaning : very few in service...!)
where it starts to make me laugh :
Easa is cooperating actually with Faa on the subject (which would be a very good explanation on the "why easa peoples are in USA , not for EAC ... something more general , sorry KennyBoy !) ...
but the trick is that they seems to be waiting for the Hearing results and follow-up actions ...
(make sens : how to cooperate with an institution if they believe it has lost all credibility and impartiality required in the cert. process ?)
that would be hilarious (ok , i have a weird sens of humor , anyway !)
EAC after pushing FAA over the wall for getting Cert. in easier and faster way ...
would suffer from the backfire of their own action !
( EAC push FAA to grant Papers = FAA being investigated = when EASA ask FAA about EAC = answer is " EAC ? we don't know , we haven't seen , and anyway we don't talk about !")
once again i cannot resist the pleasure of making a "fred'ism" (trademark : D.I.) :
peoples rarely get what they expect , more often what they deserve !
So there it is, Airtaximan arguing just for the sake of arguing. Childish.
Let us look at the height of maturity:
I have never cancelled a scheduled flight in my Eclipse. I guess that means I have a 100% dispatch reliability rate...
My plane has made 144 flights in the last 6 months. And not a single one was cancelled for maintenance...
My plane has certainly had maintenance in the 6 months I've owned it.
Ken goes on and on about how his plane is available 100% of the time to fly except for the times when his plane is unavailable to fly, so I guess you're right ATM shouldn't have attempted to talk to Ken at Ken's level.
#By the way, Airtaximan didn't dispute that he works behind a desk in Florida and is NOT a pilot.#
you didn't object on me calling you " turned and burnt" ...
does it means you have been left too long on the grill ?
come on , don't be childish yourself !
Eclipse is not disclosing a price for the aircraft, but says it will be "much more" than JetsAmerica was offering and would depend on flight hours as well as the state of equipage. Eclipse says the aircraft will be sold "as is", which includes DayJet's interior and paint.
A source familiar with the sale says the asking price will be $1.8-2 million, with upgrades and paint to be installed at Eclipse cost. Used Eclipse 500s for sale are on the list for $1.6-1.8 million, while new aircraft from the factory list at $2.15 million.
Flightglobal:Eclipse reclaims lead in DayJet fleet sale
So Eclipse isn't really selling the aircraft "as is," just they don't want that to be known. Seeing how the original DayJet sale price was $850K, the $1M+ is to pay for the cost of the retrofits. I guess Eclipse is trying to keep this hush-hush so that the pricing for the retrofits doesn't get out.
dave :
do you mean you believe the total cost for upgrade could be $1Million ?
if so , it would be pure madness !
why buying a "piece of hardware" if you know the best thing that can happen to you is to keep on throwing money into the pit ...?
#By the way, Airtaximan didn't dispute that he works behind a desk in Florida and is NOT a pilot.#
you didn't object on me calling you " turned and burnt" ...
Facts, are facts. It's hard for Airtaximan to dispute the truth. You on the other hand, may call me anything you'd like, if it makes you feel more important and relevant.
re-turned&burned :
well , i don't need to "feel" more important ...
i just don't take myself seriously enough to play that game !
(just a hint : there will be a gathering of guys in Washington on the 15th of November ; a kind of small org. tried to invite me :they were a bit speechless when i answered "sorry,i don't feel like going there !" )
at the same time , myself i work at a desk ...
i tried to type on computer having my feet tied in a upward way on the wall ...
i must tell you : it doesn't work very well !
does it make any difference ? no ! most of the owners of Fpj are not pro-pilots , i would bet most of them have to work at a desk ...
N112EA or S/N 38 was a JetAvia (Van Nuys fractional) aircraft. JetAvia was an Eclipse salesman spinoff. This tail now heading to Europe may indicate a problem with the JetAvia biz model.
X :
#This tail now heading to Europe may indicate a problem #
what do you mean ?
something like :"rats always leave the boat before its sinking trip" ?
Was this developed with the E500 joints in mind? From the trade press:
October 22, 2008
Sherwin-Williams has developed a flexible epoxy-based putty designed for aerospace applications such as filling rivets, seams and spot repair areas on aircraft exteriors. Drying time for the new Fill Bond putty is two to six hours, significantly faster than the typical six to eight hours for competing products, according to Sherwin-Williams.
Another day, another PSJ. Robert Bigler has now filed for Partial Summary Judgment against Eclipse.
ANN Special Feature: NBAA VLJ Panel IV - Training, Insurance - 10.17.08
ANN Special Feature: NBAA VLJ Panel III - DayJet Impact - 10.16.08
I just saw this Google Ad:
Looking for DayJet?
Skylimo Is Offering Stranded DayJet Customers $1750 Air Charter Credits
Then here's where the ad takes you:
Sky Limo Offers Air Charter Credits To Stranded DayJet Customers
Dave said ... Seeing how they're acting as a trustee for almost 500 aircraft, it seems like they've got a good thing going.
It just shows how insane over regulation get dealt with by the marketplace.
Option A: Carve holes on your state-of-the art integrated glass panel to stick 2 ADF radios, etc to be abe to fly in ancient european ATC space. Option B, keep the N-number and have fun.
Insurance on the Eclipse...
Mike McConnel clainmed in the above linked interview that Eclipse individual owners are seing their renewall insurance rates come down by a lot. He said there are renewal policies at under $20,000/yr (he mispoke and said per hour ;)) for hull and $10M-smooth liability.
If that is in fact true, those a very very good numbers, and mean that the underwritters expect a very low loss rate compared to similarly priced planes.
I wonder if some of the other Eclipse owners can confirm those rates.
Fred said ... so being a pilot in New-York airspace ... thanks , but no thanks !
Fred, I was just teasing you. Don't give up so easily. You'd be missing out on flying with the best of the best in ATC.
NY TRACON controllers may have an attitude that can (almost) match our pilots' egoes and some will butt heads with you and try to chew you out, but when the chips are down, they are the best of the best and will move traffic like no one else can.
I'll bet you that NY TRACON controllers can easily double the IFR capacity in Eurocontrol airspace if they are allowed to "do their thing".
Come check it out ;)
With regard to the $20 Million NM state investment:
Is this the extent of the potential losses to the state?
I was under the impresson that there is also a loan for $45 million (due in 2010).
When (not if) EAC goes BK, will NM loose that one too as a non secured creditor or is this loan sovereign (like IRS)?
Baron said... If that is in fact true, those a very very good numbers, and mean that the underwritters expect a very low loss rate compared to similarly priced planes.
I wonder if some of the other Eclipse owners can confirm those rates.
Other owners could confirm these facts but they prefer not to play in your sandbox
Dont need no stinkin Hah-vud MBA to know that the Nova is a piece of crap. Anyone who can grab their ass with two hands knows this.
I would never dispute ( and did not suggest anything to contradict ) the Nova having been a piece of crap. ( I'd say being a piece of crap, but question whether any - not owned by fetishists - still exist ). My particular antipathy towards the 'bucket of bolts driving in loose formation' is best understood if you recall the infamous "Nova dog-walk", which resembled the aircraft of your choice tracking the centerline on final in a stiff crosswind. A characteristic decidedly NOT conducive to handing the food over without thrusting my torso out through the little double doors - I've lost so many paper hats that way!
No, I just believed the ( as it turns out ) urban legend. And hoped against hope that I wasn't the only over-educated nitwit who fell for it.
:)
Would you like fries with that?
DI
New post up.
And the competition was won by....
Well, read the new headline and find out!
Shane
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