Recently Ken Meyer contacted me to offer an owners view and promised to provide 500 words. I was naturally delighted to hear from him, and encouraged him to get to work. He sent me this earlier, which I reproduce faithfully below.
A blast from the past…the Cardinal Returns!
So, nine months later, I’m offering a very warm, heartfelt hello to all of you. And here is my report…
In a nutshell, while you can say any number of things about Eclipse Aviation and its many missteps, the plane is a great plane. It is folks. And whether you like the manufacturer or not, the plane will be around for a very long time to come because it’s a very good, very efficient, very fast design.
You see, by the numbers alone, the plane is everything it was advertised to be; more on that later. But what I didn’t anticipate was how much raw fun the Eclipse would be to fly. Sure, every airplane is fun to fly, but the Eclipse makes you feel like a fighter pilot. It handles like a Mooney with jet engines. Tight and crisp, a sports car of the air.
Aha! Ken says it’s cramped! No, that’s not it at all. It handles like a sports car, but with a seat removed, it is downright spacious inside.
Take a peek at this photo
A ton of junk stored in the back, but still plenty of room for the kids to stretch out.
Is there space enough for luggage? Well, here’s the luggage for three that we carried for our Alaska cruise last week.
Performance? Does the plane really do what they say it will? It does indeed. It gets book numbers and then some. Here’s a screen shot that tells the story.
361 knots, cruising in jet comfort above the weather at 37,000 feet while burning just 209 pounds per hour per side, a total of less than 62 gph. Fuel efficiency: 6.7 statute MPG. Know any other jets that can do that? That’s better fuel efficiency than I was getting in my old piston plane!
Range? Some on this blog have said the Eclipse has a 500 nm range. Well, nope; that’s just not right. I flew KHNR to KWMC on 8/8/08:
That’s over a thousand nautical miles westbound, against headwinds! A few days earlier, it was 1172 nm eastbound O05 to KHNR.
Reliability? I’ve got over 40,000 miles on my plane since taking delivery in April. It’s had maintenance—there were several delivery squawks that had to be fixed—but not a single flight has been cancelled due to a maintenance issue. I flew to Mexico in July with an author and photographer onboard. In my previous plane, I’d have worried that the story and photos would be about our breakdown in a foreign country. In the Eclipse, I had no doubt whatsoever the flight would go well. And sure enough it did.
The Eclipse 500 is a really good design that will live on no matter what happens to Eclipse Aviation, Inc. I have a high level of optimism that the new Eclipse management can and will fix the problems the company has had in the past. But even if they don’t, the Eclipse 500 will live on precisely because it is a good design, there is a type certificate, a production certificate, a proven production line, FIKI, and a growing support network.
Thanks to all of you for reading this! I’ll drop in again in 6 months or so and say hello. Meanwhile, I’m flying my jet and loving it :)
Ken Meyer
A ton of junk stored in the back, but still plenty of room for the kids to stretch out.
Is there space enough for luggage? Well, here’s the luggage for three that we carried for our Alaska cruise last week.
Performance? Does the plane really do what they say it will? It does indeed. It gets book numbers and then some. Here’s a screen shot that tells the story.
361 knots, cruising in jet comfort above the weather at 37,000 feet while burning just 209 pounds per hour per side, a total of less than 62 gph. Fuel efficiency: 6.7 statute MPG. Know any other jets that can do that? That’s better fuel efficiency than I was getting in my old piston plane!
Range? Some on this blog have said the Eclipse has a 500 nm range. Well, nope; that’s just not right. I flew KHNR to KWMC on 8/8/08:
That’s over a thousand nautical miles westbound, against headwinds! A few days earlier, it was 1172 nm eastbound O05 to KHNR.
Reliability? I’ve got over 40,000 miles on my plane since taking delivery in April. It’s had maintenance—there were several delivery squawks that had to be fixed—but not a single flight has been cancelled due to a maintenance issue. I flew to Mexico in July with an author and photographer onboard. In my previous plane, I’d have worried that the story and photos would be about our breakdown in a foreign country. In the Eclipse, I had no doubt whatsoever the flight would go well. And sure enough it did.
The Eclipse 500 is a really good design that will live on no matter what happens to Eclipse Aviation, Inc. I have a high level of optimism that the new Eclipse management can and will fix the problems the company has had in the past. But even if they don’t, the Eclipse 500 will live on precisely because it is a good design, there is a type certificate, a production certificate, a proven production line, FIKI, and a growing support network.
Thanks to all of you for reading this! I’ll drop in again in 6 months or so and say hello. Meanwhile, I’m flying my jet and loving it :)
Ken Meyer
Many thanks Ken, and may you enjoy loads more happy hours in your very own jet. You chose your own caption, and I like your sense of humor!
Finally I think I can safely say, on behalf of the blog:-
Don't be a stranger and drop in whenever you like.
Shane
261 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 261 of 261“Just because something is a fact does not mean it is a true fact.”
I think he means that just because one person states something as a being fact does not mean it is true. I'll go along with that
hmmm...does this work as well?
"Just because someone tells a lie does not mean it is an true lie..."
Does anyone know if Eclipse is still doing the upset training in the Albatross (or whatever it was)?
Does anyone know of other jet training programs that include this? I haven't heard of any outside of defence.
hi all
i've spent a week in the darkest spot of central africa , then a week in spain ...
i am delighted to see a few things never change ...
Eac is still stating Méga-orders ...
Monsieur Gunner is still down to the point ...
Monsieur Shane is still hosting us ...
even KennyBoy came around to tout all the qualities of the bird he want to get rid off ...!
few things seems never to change ! ;-)
airtaximan,
"Oh yeah - silly me, he just said last week they have 2600 orders for the e500... and they are ramping back up next year. What am I saying???"
Quite simple:
Veel succes geachte Heer Pieper!
(Perhaps he will not understand that dutch. But I also do not understand the situation with EAC:
EAC transferred money to ETRIC (aviation)?
EAC is in money conservation mode.
EAC needs approx. 500 M$.
EAC has 2600 EA50 orders ("real", no deferred to ...(Dayjet)) yes/no? Orders with current price?
EAC needs orders (EA50,E400)?
The orders will be fulfilled in short term (two years).
In 2009 EAC will ramp up production to 2/d?
That's no very new - apart from the amount of $$$$ - but ... we will see.
Julius
It is also interesting to note that the Cirrus line evidently did not generate additional air taxi ventures beyond SatsAir.
It will be instructive to see how Cirrus handles the positioning, pricing and order book for the new s/e jet.
Color me cynical, but why would all of these heretofore quiet Eclipse 500 owners all of a sudden get diarrhea of the mouth to extol the virtues of the FPJ? Methinks there's a relationship between these posts and the stagnant secondhand market for the FPJ. Specifically, "pump and dump" comes to mind here.
second hand market + Fpj ??
in the same sentence ???
you must be kidding !
deep,
there are a number of charter companies using the SR22..
Stratus Alliance comes to mind, so does Imagineair
In any case, its all charter - call it air taxi, or whatever you wish.
"It is also interesting to note that the Cirrus line evidently did not generate additional air taxi ventures beyond SatsAir."
From today's AvWEB AvFlash. Small operation - but still, an operation using the Cirrus:
People in southern California who are short on time or patience or both may find salvation in Miwok Airways, a start-up short hop air service flying on-demand operations to and from 40 local airports, beginning this fall. Four Cirrus SR22s operated through contract with charter companies will be used to cover a stretch of SoCal from Oxnard to San Diego with service to begin before November. The cost for a one-way trip from San Diego to L.A. (including the airports of your choice) chimes in at about $110 with seats filled and $338 with two seats empty (cautious planners should count on the higher price). Flights could cost as little as $82 on short trips with full seats. The longest available flight will run between Oxnard and Palm Springs. Miwok has partnered with Enterprise Rent-a-Car to offer special rates on car rentals where available.
Deep Blue,
Not true re: Cirrus air-taxi sales. Miwok just started up SR22 air taxi service in SoCal and Point2Point was using them before it went extinct. Note that P2P went under because they were flying in North Dakota and didn't have a FIKI-approved airplane in the fleet, so operations over the winter was difficult at best. Also, One Air Taxi in the UK started SR22 air taxi service this summer, though it seems they have their Cirrus up for sale on their website.
Fred, I said the market was "stagnant."
shadow ...
it was me kidding ...! ;-))
but , to me , stagnant is just an other form of "non-existent" ...
by the way , for the ones who remember the "stories" about Spain and Méga-expansion of air-taxi bizz there ...
i just came back from a week of survey in Spanish economics way of things ...
they are in such a mess !
if it would not concern so many , it would be almost comical ...
they have done all the mistakes written in the book !
so i presume the air-taxi expansion in Spain is as much a reality than the EA500 orders !
I note that certain of The Faithful
(Baron, I now include you in that category, as I do not consider it a pejorative so much as descriptive term)...that certain of The Faithful have stopped by here and made certain to include patronizing commentary and downright direct insult to their posts.
When called on this behavior (politely, for the most part, I assert), there rises a great wailing and gnashing of teeth. Well, ya know what? Perhaps it's time everyone grew up a bit and understood that people are generally treated the way they treat others.
426 had no problems here; nor did EO387. Ask yourselves why that is? Ask BEFORE you demand that we overlook the condescending PR pablum that Dr. Meyer spews, while claiming he's far too busy to respond to questions and really hasn't participated in this Blog since he signed off in a huff. Ask BEFORE you tut-tut and wring your hands that someone might have insulted poor EB in response to his direct personal attacks against Gad and Dave.
No Critic has EVER attempted to silence a member of the Faithful thru nuisance lawsuit. Yet Eclipse spent tens of thousands attempting that very outcome against 28 of The Critics. In the end, the action was unsupportable and management turned tail and ran like petulant little bullies they are. To this day, not a single member of The Faithful has ever denounced that action. (Baron, you vociferously defended it.)
So, I suggest we drop the little pity party for Ken and EB. If they have something to say, say it and expect opinion differences. If they insist on adding insult to the commentary, expect to be called on that also; in some cases, expect response in kind. For the rest of you, if you've got sand in your giney try some water rather than that whine you keep reaching for.
Gunner
So, I suggest we drop the little pity party for Ken and EB. If they have something to say, say it and expect opinion differences. If they insist on adding insult to the commentary, expect to be called on that also; in some cases, expect response in kind. For the rest of you, if you've got sand in your giney try some water rather than that whine you keep reaching for.
For all the complaints about this blog being too closed off, anyone can participate on this blog, it is free to join and the comments are available to the world see without even requiring membership. The Faithful's comments about this blog only serve to put the Faithful's blog in sharp relief - it has limited membership, the posts aren't open to the world to see and on top of that it costs over $100 per year. What do the Faithful have to hide?
"What do the Faithful have to hide?"
Apparently, a lot!
James Fallows has another article up on air taxis:
http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/the_coming_of_the_air_taxies_p.php
The on-demand prop airline:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-air6-2008sep06,0,905855.story
OK, this is the non-EAC defender "Just zis guy, you know?" As opposed to "Just zis guy, ya know?"
Anyway, reading the owners points of view is quite interesting. Please stay around and post more. Things that seems to be a common thread:
1) Nobody paid "full price." They all got the bargain basement price. Good for them, but it's not real and not sustainable.
2) They all seem to be OK with the lack of functionality. I'm guessing most are coming up from an older part 23 light aircraft, because the missing functionality is kind of a given in the jet market for some time, even the light jet and turboprop part 23 market (i.e. 510/525, Premier I, etc.). I'm guessing the cockpit doesn't seem bad when you're coming from an airplane with steam gages and a GNS 530 and/or a 396 strapped to the wheel.
#1 is a real distortion that won't continue long. You can only ship stuff out the door below marginal cost of manufacturing for so long (appears EAC is past this point).
#2 is proof that those who are targeted by this niche and the SEJ market are going to be satisfied with the products. That part of Vern's story seems to be holding true: There are lots of people out there flying 30-50 year old designs who would like a modern replacement.
All of that said, compared with the 510/P100 competition, the aircraft will continue to be less capable. Without the $1.1M price tag, the platform just doesn't seem to be competitive. The single engine turboprops should have better operational costs and the "real" jets are better products at similar prices if the operational cost doesn't make them too much for you.
shadow,
"What do the Faithful have to hide?"
I think they will say "nothing": They are living in their NDA-perimeter and made a short trip to the crude real world. Surely, they will not saw off the branch they're sitting on.
Julius
P. S.
Spain (Canaries): Prices for cheaper houses or apartments are on the decrease since 2007 and will continue for another 1 or 2 years. Better stuff (> 1 M€) is still expensive and no change is anticipated.The situation is similar on the spanish continent.
Okay Gunner, let me be the first of the faithful to congratulate you on your successful defense of the blog. My only disappointment in that process was that Vern did not hang in long enough to get his ass well and truly kicked in court as he deserved. Perhaps getting fired the first day of Airventure was almost enough humiliation, he sure did not look happy. As to Eclipse management turning tail and running, I just think that with Vern gone plain common sense took hold. I imagine that they are now talking to Skupa’s lawyers about how much Eclipse pays Skupa too.
When trashing “Eclipse” you might do well to remember that the root source of the insanity was Vern. Yes, he hired “mini-me’s” and they are still there, but for really bad management and judgment few can top Vern. I don’t trust Roel to work for my benefit, but I think he has already demonstrated an ability to be more rational than Vern, whatever his motives. Of course, evil and smart can be worse than evil and stupid, so we shall see.
One of the problems that Eclipse customers had was that in Vern’s world even the customer was the enemy unless they just quietly assumed the position. The closed nature of the E5C site is in large part a bow to Vern’s paranoia. Under Roel’s direction Eclipse seems to be moving towards more open communication. But again, we shall see, Roel’s comments sometimes peg my BS meter too.
One of the problems that Eclipse customers had was that in Vern’s world even the customer was the enemy unless they just quietly assumed the position. The closed nature of the E5C site is in large part a bow to Vern’s paranoia. Under Roel’s direction Eclipse seems to be moving towards more open communication. But again, we shall see, Roel’s comments sometimes peg my BS meter too.
I think Roel is much better in that regard as he isn't a foaming at the mouth attack dog, but Roel is still making those associated with Eclipse assume the position. I believe it was you who reported that Roel took over because of a missed payment to ETIRC, yet it is now Roel who is holding refunds hostage indefinitely (as well as deposits for the 400) where at best customers will receive 6% simple interest per anum to involuntarilly be venture capitalists for a high risk company at a high risk time when all those customer want is their money back. Roel seems to have a different personality than Vern, but I don't see Roel's ethics are any better towards those Roel does business with at Eclipse.
Gunner
Thanks for your comments . . . but the “gadfly” is somewhat immune to the criticism.
It is a normal human reaction, that someone who has purchased an expensive toy to defend their decision. There was a time that I had to own and drive “BMW’s”, and I owned a couple of them . . . and, like the little bird, they were a “blast” to own and drive . . . until I learned about long term reliability and maintenance. When the rear-end locked up in the #1 lane on I-40, in front of a “semi”, and I had to get across three lanes to the shoulder, without getting “mushed” . . . I began to have doubts about Bavarian reliability. It took another larger BMW to get the thing out of my system. Then on to “Volvos” . . . another lesson, not to be repeated. It was a trip to Sweden, and questioning the “natives” why they didn’t drive their own cars . . . but preferred Toyota’s . . . and even “Ford’s” . . . that I confirmed what I had come to learn at great expense. (Even the cab driver preferred a Mercedes . . . he couldn’t afford the upkeep on a Volvo . . . his words, not mine.)
The bottom line here is that the Eclipse owners will support their decision . . . and for a “brief” period, will have a blast, driving their little bird around the sky. But there will come a time . . . all too soon, when reality will set in. The “honest” faithful will confess their miss-placed trust . . . the others will continue to suffer from Egyptian River Syndrome.
In the end, inter- and intra-granular corrosion might be the deciding factor . . . and local Chinese restaurants may include a new item on their “stir fry” menu . . .#500 . . . a bit much, maybe, considering the other items end right after the “Pupu Platter #49"
gadfly
(Oh, I forgot . . . right there on the “Child’s menu” is the reduced size, #400 . . . with the butterfly shrimp tails.)
julius :
(sorry for digressing , my best apologies )
price of housing in Spain is set for a decrease for a much longer term than only 1 or 2 years ...
(at least Mainland)
they adopted the UK system (Extra-extra-long mortgages )
the cheapest "thing" i have seen (a two bedroom flat of less than 70M²) was 159.000€ and it was not in Madrid (double that price) but in a quite lost spot ...
the problem : average salary in Spain is 700 to 800€ a month and as soon as you get over the 16 years threshold , the interest rate is killing you ... borrowing at fixed rate is not possible in Spain (sounds like playing the dice)
i heard it is possible to borrow money for such a long period that the condition is to have a kid of less than 18 y.o. (to take over repayment when you will be too old for working !)
isn't it crazy ? even the britts didn't go this far into credit-madness ...( as for length , for others things situation is as much a mess ! richness and illusion of richness are too often 2 completely different topics )
if you top it with the fact that i personally drove from Barcelona to Tarifa ( which is all the Mediterranean coast) on a road which was all the time next to the beach (never more than 75 Meters), but not been able to watch the sea for more than 10 minutes all together ( because it is blocks of flats absolutely everywhere ...)
the conclusion is that part of Spain look like puke to me !
costs of living is as well rocketing : last time i crossed Spain (2 and half year ago) prices were 30 to 50 % lower than France or Germany , now you hardly spot a difference ...
so i would say the housing price going to collapse for 2 to 3 years (taking into consideration that they get rid of the massive stock of unsold flats, one way or another) then a few years for Spanish to forget about this nowadays fiasco then lots of works and time to regain tourist attraction ...
(at the time being , even given for 1€ , i am not sure i would accept a flat looking like a cramped suburb of Paris ...)
sounds very much like Fpj ... , your best move is to run-away BEFORE approaching ... !;-))
Fred:
you are right the spanish real estate market (already) showed some bad signs in 2005.
To speak with Gadfly's word: there is a lot of corrosion between sellers and buyers....
Now something about a/c and law:
Judge: FAA Must Pay For Flawed Investigation (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Judge_FAA_certificate_suspend_learjet_award_198728-1.html)
I do not know if this is the final ruling.
What happens, if Oberstar finds out, FAA didn't work as it should...
Julius
Eclipsewhiner,
Your post on Vern and the culture of BS is one of the clearest, hashest criticisms I have ever read here.
I have always found it strange that the huge order book of "2000+ deposit backed orders" (TM Eclipse) does not include at least three poeple with an opinion of the companies ethics like yours, who see no hope of value or recovery of their deposits, and decide to send the company into BK.
I think it is because the order back log is tiny, and only made up of very subserviant persons.
my brain is in a haze lately; the side effects of being unemployed and unable to sleep. but i found some of the recent discourse interesting regarding the relative and/or absolute "value" of an Eclipse 500 jet. therefore, i have a few things i am willing to sell just to see what transaction price i can get for my wares. i can send pics to Shane to post if anyone is seriously interested.
1. size Large, EAC leather bomber jacket. fair condition since the kitties have scratched the leather, but i think that can be repaired. $250 new. can i get $20for it, plus $10 for shipping?
2. EAC 500 plastic snap-together model and stand. excellent condition. $25 new. for sale for $5 plus $5 shipping.
3. EAC 500 "bobble" airplane promotional giveaway. EAC and Albuquerque Isotopes logos are on the base. excellent example of the lousy quality when you see how bad the seam is between the wing and body. FREE when i got it at the baseball game...so FREE to whomever wants it for $5 shipping.
4. EAC plush pilot bear. cute fuzzy thing that was $25 new, i think. $5 plus $5 shipping.
5. OR ...for the generous soul that would pay $100 for everything (including shipping/handling), i will throw in the Collier award 'coin' (Medallion) for FREE!!! show off to all your friends!!! what a great deal, yes??!!
now, i mean no disrespect. but i'm sure my sarcasm is evident no matter how hard i try to soften my tone. i don't know anything about disruptive technology but i do know about DEFLATIONARY economics: it is a buyers market for just about everything. i still wonder what on earth i should do with all the EAC crap i paid for over the last 2 years. maybe just a bonfire in my backyard i can record and post on YouTube.
i suppose what hurts the most is the feeling that i wanted to believe Vern so badly, to believe IN Vern so badly. it has been more of an almost childish notion of David v. Golliath: since i was a kid, i always wanted to work for a transportation company that would reinvent the wheel. now i feel downright stupid for thinking this venture would be successful no matter what kinks i saw every day. 5 stages of grief and all that nonsense doesn't erase the sense of shame and dissapointment at "What Could Have Been." speaking just for myself, i know that i need some kind of cathartic funeral ceremony to bury this chapter in my life ...and i can only hope that people won't look at me as if i worked for Enron or John DeLorean when i go on job interviews.
E.D.T.
A friend and I were talking yesterday, and began the discussion of whether we would put our families on the FPJ.
What comes to mind is the safety, and I decided the best route would be to get the lawn chair out with the helium balloons. (I know, it’s been done already).
This way, at least I know the situation I’m in before I leave the ground. Where I live it would only be appropriate to have someone “hold my beer and watch this”. As I glide gracefully skyward into the controlled airspace and wonder if the airline pilots’ would dare to report it. (“Nope, I didn’t see anything”).
As the FPJ struggles to climb to altitude, I would like to see the looks on the passengers faces as I glide by with my frosty beer, and then write to blog about how happy I am with my new aero-machine. (although I still have one on LAWNS.com for sale)….oh the thrills!!!!
A new article on air taxis:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/09/09/315609/queuing-up-for-air-taxis-but-aircraft-are-slow-to-arrive.html
DayJet confirming the start of weekend service:
http://www.airtaxilaw.com/2008/09/dayjet-weekends-and-cirrus-layoffs.html
I noticed that Western Aviation has listed two E500s for sale. Never Flown. Zero Hours. Price $2.1M. What seems strange is one of the aircraft is listed as being serial number 162. Odd that it has zero hours??? Here is a link to the sales site:
http://www.westernaviation.com/aircraftListings.asp
(Do a search for Eclipse)
Speculation??? Did the owner never take actual possession? Was he afraid to fly it? Anybody know the registered owner and the whole story?
I noticed that Western Aviation has listed two E500s for sale. Never Flown. Zero Hours. Price $2.1M. What seems strange is one of the aircraft is listed as being serial number 162. Odd that it has zero hours??? Here is a link to the sales site
There's also S/N 832 for sale for way less than retail price and claims that it will be delivered next year:
http://www.westernaviation.com/aircraftDetails.asp?id=209
Also as far as the other one goes, the S/N doesn't match what the FAA says for the tail number:
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/nnumsql.asp?NNumbertxt=204ZQ
Here's a detailed articled on aviation in Russia in general as well as Moscow in particular:
http://www.propilotmag.com/archives/2008/Sept08/A4_Moscow_p1.html
EDT
(shouldn't be XXX rated ...such a name ? ;-)) )
about deflation , you're almost right !
but on a theoretical point of view , the ones who kept the paper in 1929 are lately reported to be rich ...
ok , there is only one limitation , they eat their vegetables by the roots for a long time ... (with a nice little garden on the belly )
but who knows , you can try to keep your stuff , in 50 years it may have some value ... :-))
if not bury it in your lawn , in a thousand years archaeologists will wonder what kind of an extinct weird specie , we were ...
Been away in Europe for the past few days, hence not fully up to speed with everything that's been said.
However, this reached me today, so I thought it was timely to share with the blog.
A few weeks ago, I heard several sources muttering about DayJet and Lineair. There was a deal, the deal was just for surplus FPJ's, the deal was off etc.
Nothing I could really get my 'teeth' into.
However, I'm now told, pretty reliably, that a purchase agreement has finally been inked between the parties.
Anyone like to comment further?
Of course, if you don't want to do so on the blog, the inbox is always open.
eclipsecriticng@gmail.com
Shane
FreedomsJamtarts said...
Baron95, You have some good points like the wide horizon line on the EFIS. Are all those systems controls (fuel, pneumatic etc) modal or modeless?
My understanding is that they are a mix, but that the important ones are modeless - but again, I have never flown an Eclipse, so I may be way off base.
I agree 100% with you - model UIs with multiple button pushed are horrible. And yes, the G400 will be a gigantic step backwards for the Eclipse.
We put up with those boxes, because what came before was even worst (G300, KLN90 anyone), but that is no way to fly a plane let alone a 21st century jet. I can't count how many times I was unable to change an approach transition in flight on a GNS530 while bouncing in turbulence and hand flying for passenger comfort. The only way to do it is to put the AP on and dedicate close to 100% of your attention for tens of seconds to the Garmin box. Yes, it is flyable, but it sucks.
Deep Blue said ... Lastly, I think it is important to separate criticism into, though inter-related, still distinct categories concerning the E500 project: 1. the Airplane itself; 2. EAC venture management; 3. Production/manufacturing; and 4. the ambition to supply and effectively underwrite the large-scale "air taxi" concept.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I second this thought and propose that these are the official categuories of EAC discussion in this blog.
It is frustrating when we are talking to the pilots and they say "the plane handles great" and some blogger says "but it is no good as an airtaxi" and another says "but eclipse hasn't pruduced the 1 a day".
IF we could keep the discussion threads separate and focused as you described, we'd have a much more productive conversation.
It is frustrating when we are talking to the pilots and they say "the plane handles great" and some blogger says "but it is no good as an airtaxi" and another says "but eclipse hasn't pruduced the 1 a day".
IF we could keep the discussion threads separate and focused as you described, we'd have a much more productive conversation.
The thing is that they are inter-related. If you try and separate things off which cannot be separated, you just balkanize the discussion and make it less useful because to have a meaningful discussion on many things, you have to talk about multiple things.
#2 for instance relates to #1, #3 and #4.
You also cannot talk about #4 and avoid #1 (your own example actually shows that).
What can be done is give context to what is being said, such as saying whether you are discussing GA or commercial aviation. Take the recent news about Eclipse cutting production which that simultaneously is about #2 and #3 and has implications for #4 - you really can't split it up into separate threads and still be able to have a meaningful discussion as the world is not so black and white in creating clear points of delineation.
I think there are more Eclipe owners posting now, simply because Vern is gone and with him (we hope) the paranoia of threatening the owners if they divulged info they got under the EA50 NDA or the E5C rules. Simple as that, but of course, the Blog must assign uterior motives.
I think the EA50 owners are happy with their planes because they are not comparing it with a Mustang or TBM or BE90 all of which cost about 3 times what they paid for the EA50. They are comparing it to other $1.0M turbine planes in the market - and those are run-down, bad cockpit, poor performers. But most here in this blog don't understand this simple fact - their decision was "What is the best $1.0M turbine plane I can own". To this date, no-one is here can tell me what $1.0M zero time engine, under warranty presurized turbine plane they should have gotten instead. Nor can they, because only expensive to run junk is available at those prices.
"To this date, no-one is here can tell me what $1.0M zero time engine, under warranty presurized turbine plane"
You insist on beating a dead horse. There is no such plane, EA50, or otherwise. The EA50 is $2.15mm. Take a Cessna Mustang and remove all the things that are inop or missing on the EA50 an you can buy a Mustang for $2.15mm (or less). Without the missing/inop equipment, IMO, the EA50 is a poor value at $1mm.
Baron, don't be so quick to say that the Eclipse 500 is better than sliced bread because it can fly above the weather.
Another AD was issued today for the Eclipse 500 pitot/AOA probe that will make the airplane VFR only again. Seems the pesky freezing condensation in the pitot/AOA system issue that was "fixed" several months ago wasn't really fixed after all. Another disruptive feature of the Eclipse 500?
Nobody answered you Baron because you have constructed an airplane in your argument that does not exist.
It is not made by anybody, including if not especially Eclipse.
Why can't I buy a 750hp, 45mpg sports car SUV convertible crossover for $15,000?
If, as Eclipse has sort of done, someone promised such a vehicle, but then delivered an incomplete cobbled together abomination of a vehicle - that does not make a legitimate comparison to complete products delivered and supported by real companies.
You are better than ridiculous strawmen like this Baron.
Seems the pesky freezing condensation in the pitot/AOA system issue that was "fixed" several months ago wasn't really fixed after all. Another disruptive feature of the Eclipse 500?
Its not a bug, its a feature.
Here's the latest in translated news. Roel apparently loves to talk to the foreign press, just he wont to talk to the english-speaking press:
http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=nl_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.telegraaf.nl%2fdft%2fnieuws_dft%2f1876590%2f__Twijfels_over_Piepers_zakenjet__.html%3fp%3d3,1
http://www.sprout.nl/artikel.jsp?id=1588177&utm_campaign=rss&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss
i suppose what hurts the most is the feeling that i wanted to believe Vern so badly, to believe IN Vern so badly. it has been more of an almost childish notion of David v. Golliath: since i was a kid, i always wanted to work for a transportation company that would reinvent the wheel. now i feel downright stupid for thinking this venture would be successful no matter what kinks i saw every day. 5 stages of grief and all that nonsense doesn't erase the sense of shame and dissapointment at "What Could Have Been." speaking just for myself, i know that i need some kind of cathartic funeral ceremony to bury this chapter in my life ...and i can only hope that people won't look at me as if i worked for Enron or John DeLorean when i go on job interviews
EDT,
My COllier coin is on my desk next to my box of Kleenex (don't infer any symbolism - the space was there). My (numerous) E-Clips T-shirts still get worn (sometimes to mow the lawn in). I'm sure it looks silly to someone driving by my house and ready "We Did It!" on the back of the guy mowing his lawn, but I digress.
I believed not in Vern, but in Vern's "idea" for the the FPJ. I worked hard to see it through and stuck with it until (as Gad put it) I could no longer see the truth in the mission, but only the lies in the execution. I walked away feeling "released". Different circumstances, I admit, but still feeling good about myself. And, I brought with me good ideas and learnings (EAC has done many things well) and movedon in the GA biz. I still work in GA. Everyone knows where I came from, and some folks even have an interest in "my story". I keep saying I am going to write a book on my dealings with two (yep, "fool me once...") start-up GA businesses, but I've got to find the time to do it.
Maybe now that the SLAPP lawsuit has passed I need to sharpen my pencil...
Hang in there. The dinosaurs are hiring (and are trying to change).
P_P
I'm sure it looks silly to someone driving by my house and ready "We Did It!" on the back of the guy mowing his lawn, but I digress.
Vern Raburn = Jeffrey Goines?
CW,
I worte a longass answer for Baron, and deleted it..
I contained the following:
"I am sure there is a huge market for 6000 sq ft computer controlled oceanfront homes, that cost $300 per month to run, and $255,000 to buy... too."
Problem is "those" homes do not exist, and if they did they would undoubtedly cost $2M and up....
Neither does the plane you describe.
BUT, one might find an unfinished oceanfront "fixer-upper" at a huge discount... it will lack some of the functionality... but you "could" live with it.
This describes the plane you refer to.
Now let’s be nice to Baron95. Allow me to repeat a piece that I posted May 2007:
“Some years ago our company founder was selected Inventor of the Year by the Museum of Science. Several of us took turns manning a booth at the Inventor's Fair held at the Museum.
A nearby booth contained an interesting but unfinished machine. It was a four-foot diameter wheel festooned with capacitors, inductors and switches around the rim. Magnets were mounted on a stationary frame. It was attended by an elderly gentleman who was proud of his soon-to-be-completed Perpetual Motion Machine.
A young engineer examined the gentleman's invention and began to ask penetrating questions about the laws of thermodynamics. As the hotshot bored in, the old man began to get uncomfortable. Just then another man stepped over and asked to young engineer to step away for a minute.
I followed them and heard the man give the 'kid' this advice, "Don't be too hard on him and his Perpetual Motion Machine. What would an Inventor's Fair be without such a machine? He can dream. We want the old gentlemen to come back to the next Fair." The chastened young man moved on.
With this in mind, I suggest we be nice to Eclipse Aviation supporters, depositors or investors who contribute to this blog.”
However I disagree with one of Baron95’s assertions - “What is the best $1.0M turbine plane I can own …only expensive-to-run junk is available at those prices.”
While some experienced jet pilots bought an Eclipse, I suspect many were upwardly mobile aviators, like Ken and Shari, anxious to shed the piston aircraft and its image. In hindsight, I suggest these people would have been just as impressed with a thirty-year old Citation One SP. They would still get ‘the smell of jet fuel in the morning’, impress their hangar neighbors and listen to the gentle hiss of air up front, and the turbine whine in back.
The old Sperry autopilots are smooth, reliable, feed big five-inch indicators, a nice flight director, and they do real coupled approaches. There are several RVSM solutions. With any old GPS in the panel you wouldn’t be flying VOR to VOR like the Stone Age.
Think of it. An old Citation would offer known icing, better range/payload, and is almost as fast as the Eclipse. Factory support is far better, anywhere in the world. These aircraft can be had at well less than a million dollars and will probably hold their value better in spite of thirsty fuel flow – 900 pounds per hour at 35,000 feet with the antiquated JT-15 engines.
I’ll be quick to add that this is viewed through that wonderful device, the Retrospectoscope. The depositors never went into this deal thinking an old Citation could offer the same buzz, better certified equipment, similar performance, and value in 2008.
Question: Will an Eclipse Collier Coin fit in a vending machine or is it accepted as legal tender in stores in Albuquerque?
Shane:
Are you saying Linear bought dayjets planes... or Dayjet bought Linear, or Linear bought Dayjet?
Quite interesting... especially since the Linear guy just said the financial markets are stopping him from buying more EA50s... also, I thnk he mentioned reliability issues... said it would only next year when he is up to 15 of them.
Anyone see Linear flying their e500s on FAware?
However I disagree with one of Baron95’s assertions - “What is the best $1.0M turbine plane I can own …only expensive-to-run junk is available at those prices.”
Right now the final price of those aircraft is up in the air. I believe it was Baron himself who proposed [a post-BK] Eclipse charge to upgrade those aircraft to spec as the free retrofits by Eclipse are definitely up in the air now and might not happen at all...at least not for free. The aircraft that cost less have less in them than those that cost more and there's no guarantee that those who paid less after delivery aren't going to have retrofit bills that put the final price equal to or greater than the going price now for later serial numbers that have more of the items the other serial numbers lack. If Eclipse wasn't having Going Concern issues this wouldn't matter as Eclipse would be paying for the retrofits, but that is simply not the case now and along with Eclipse being a Going Concern is the matter of if, when, how much it will cost to retrofit the fleet (along with who will be doing the retrofiting). If Eclipse agrees to continue to do all retrofits for free, Eclipse meets spec with all retrofits and Ecliipse lasts long enough to do all those retrofits, then we can talk about those serial numbers that were $1 million but as of right now that's something that is far from a sure thing.
Gentlemen:
I met with the new management team last month. It appears they are earnest about trying to turn EAC into a viable business, but strictly withing the confines of finding a financial exit for themselves.
They are not strategic investors; Etirc appears to be nothing but a shell. UBS of course is not savvy.
I would say moreover that their lack of experience in aviation (in business in general), let alone heavy manufacturing (versus assembling computers or phones or consulting) does not appear to present a credible turnaround platform, let alone a manufacturing excellence sponsor.
Moreover, their inherent financial conflict appears insurmountable; and Russia is more of a phantasy than could be imagined.
I have even less confidence now in the product (all the dedicated professionals there notwithstanding).
I wonder how a small group of sector-novice foreigners with no DOT financial fitness status can gain control of a faltering US aerospace corporation, without challenge.
US DOJ? DOT? FAA?
Regards.
I met with the new management team last month. It appears they are earnest about trying to turn EAC into a viable business, but strictly withing the confines of finding a financial exit for themselves.
That goes with Roel's reputation as someone who is more a quick sale type than as company builder.
I would say moreover that their lack of experience in aviation (in business in general), let alone heavy manufacturing (versus assembling computers or phones or consulting) does not appear to present a credible turnaround platform, let alone a manufacturing excellence sponsor.
It looks downright silly when you also factor in ETIRC claiming to be doing all these other projects as well that are also supposedly taking their time. I think most all of their other projects as well would be considered heavy industrial.
Roel at least at one time wanted to be PM of the Netherlands:
http://www.nisnews.nl/dossiers/royal_house/310804_1400.htm
Moreover, their inherent financial conflict appears insurmountable; and Russia is more of a phantasy than could be imagined.
With Russia that really seems like they've got a tiger by the tail. I can't see them going through with it to any great level (I could see it as a small factory, not a carbon copy of ABQ) but I also can't see them abandoning it either, particularly as Roel continues to push it as part of Eclipse's order book size. Roel really loses credibility saying that the order book is increasing and saying that the Russian factory is needed because of that.
I have even less confidence now in the product (all the dedicated professionals there notwithstanding).
I have the same as I see Roel as being fundamentally the same as Vern, just with a less confrontational personality.
I wonder how a small group of sector-novice foreigners with no DOT financial fitness status can gain control of a faltering US aerospace corporation, without challenge.
US DOJ? DOT? FAA?
I really don't have a problem with that. Frankly it is the foreigners who will be losing the money on this rather than the US. Its not like this is a company dealing with secret military technology or that the US considers the Netherlands a terrorist nation.
Here's a good new article on Eclipse as a business:
http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVwebInsiderBlog_CanEclipseSurvive_198756-1.html
ATman,
The way I'm hearing it, Lineair are the buyer, DayJet (well, Ed) is selling.
Shane
The way I'm hearing it, Lineair are the buyer, DayJet (well, Ed) is selling.
Not $40 million dollars, but it should help. I'm just throwing this out there, but perhaps DayJet should consider buying props with the money for short haul along with greatly expanding the size of their service area (have the service area available for everyone that is only available now for chartering the whole aircraft and have more destinations on top of that) and using props for real short flights (the Miwok model) and the FPJ for longer flights. Ed seems the most nimble and willing to change business models and I see him as having a greater chance of survival compared to Eclipse.
What a mess! Discussions about manufacturing . . . design . . . quality . . . funding . . . avionics . . . software/hardware . . . “proving the dinosaurs wrong” . . . air-taxi . . . personal use . . . re-finance . . . bankruptcy . . . on and on and on ad nauseum.
Hey, folks . . . in this mess there is a basic theme . . . a “lack of focus” . . . working in a black box with all the lights turned off.
In an attempt to shoot in all directions, the target (if there ever was one) was safe from ever being hit.
‘Had someone early on defined a single target . . . maybe “two” at the most, there might have been success. But the thing was put in the hands of someone who had never fired a gun . . . and he got his hands on a “blunderbuss”.
Right here, I could go on about lasers . . . and “coherent” light, CO2 electric versus chemical lasers, plasma generators, pulsed versus continuous wave . . . and focused energy . . . and apply this to the little jet . . . but most of you would be lost within a few dozen words. The bottom line is that in this highly technical world (as “humans” think they have it all figured out), there is a basic need in every endeavor to “keep it simple”, and stay focused on one goal.
Once that goal is achieved, then go on to the next . . . cautiously.
So far, I have not seen a defined goal for Eclipse Aviation . . . not one! It is no wonder that they will never reach that “goal” . . . they still haven’t a clue what it is.
gadfly
(And, fred, your comment about those who “eat their vegetables from the root end for a long time” . . that is a true “classic” in any language. Beautiful! Thanks for that! I love it. And I’m still laughing.)
Roel isn't giving refunds to customers in another venture he was in:
Now, directors and shareholders of Opinio, consisting of Jaffe Vink editor and entrepreneur Roel Pieper, decided that the magazine no longer viable, "because of insufficient economic prospects": read: an insufficient number of subscribers. With 5,000 copies showed Opinio not be able strongholds, to survive was a paid circulation of 12,000 numbers, as calculated in the Financieele Dagblad recently. Last week, on June 3 al, was filed for insolvency. The magazine had given himself one year to prove otherwise. "Since this is a bankruptcy, it is at present not possible to the current cost of subscriptions to refund", the website has reported.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://papierenman.blogspot.com/2008/06/nederlandse-opinieweekblad-opinio-gooit.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dopinio%2B%2522Roel%2BPieper%2B%2522%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_nl%26safe%3Doff%26as_qdr%3Dall
If Roel wouldn't give refunds to 5000 magazine subscribers (which at best would be equal to the amount of just one Eclipse position holder seeking a refund)...
‘Had someone early on defined a single target . . . maybe “two” at the most, there might have been success. But the thing was put in the hands of someone who had never fired a gun . . . and he got his hands on a “blunderbuss”.
Actually my perception is the opposite. I see that Eclipse has had a very clear goal and the goal has not changed since the defenestration of Vern. It's been all about cashing out quick. First it was rushing to an IPO now it is being bought out privately. That's why there's been such grandiose claims about the market size, there's been sloppy engineering, etc. All the disparate activities coalesce around achieving the single goal. There's nothing wrong with that goal, just when you've got unethical people trying to achieve that goal areas that shouldn't be compromised are compromised. It is why we had Vern touting the 2000+ order book for years and why we've got Roel doing the same thing now and that also explains the engineering decisions that were made and continue to be made.
Dave
Yes, you are probably correct. But most of us who observe . . . and the hundreds (and more), who came to Albuquerque to support this “thing” were just naive enough to think in terms of flying, safe travel, and providing something new and exciting for folks who could afford it. I’m passing seven decades on this little created planet . . . and I still have certain dreams about using the things that God has provided for good ends . . . flying being one of them. However, everything good can provide an opportunity for a bad end . . . the little jet is no exception. All of that I have read somewhere . . . oh yes, that’s right, . . . I was just reading about that sort of thing this morning, as is my habit.
gadfly
(Well, we do what we can do, and say as much as we can say . . . and leave it at that!)
New post up.
Bit of a 'missive' from yours truly, in part prompted by what's been written in this thread.
Shane
Shane,
Ed leased the planes to Dayjet?
Am I reading between the lines coorectly?
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