Thursday, February 26, 2009

Light(s) at the end of the tunnel?

UPDATED Sunday 1st March 2009

URGENT, FAA issues a "Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin" for Eclipse owners.

Check out the official notice from the FAA. They've clearly been fielding questions about the current 'issues' affecting the FPJ. Read it, fully, and act accordingly. Anyone operating one of these aircraft may find themselves in more hot water if they choose to ignore the advice. In particular I'd draw your attention to the issue affecting those with IS&S displays (AvioNG), which cut on on s/n 105 and may have been retrofitted to a few of the earlier aircraft.

Original Post
I've been watching, in my quiet way, a few of those who were interested in the original Chapter 11 sale for the assets of EAC. I did so in the firm belief that the pre cooked sale by Roel, to Roel, would end in tears. I'm aware of several entities who may, or may not, be able to make Eclipse V 2.0 happen, some of whom will make a go of it, and others who will not. As often happens in these matters, those who 'come out' early on get an advantage, if only by being brave enough to explain what they are about.

Herewith two of those efforts. Make of them what you will, and understand that I provide this space in a sincere effort to find a way forward for staff, suppliers and owners seeking some solace in difficult circumstances. Others, with similar intentions, are of course welcome to contact me. In the meantime, the best of 'Irish Luck' to Phil, his team and now the 'owners group', who join the fray below. I should add that this has been sent to me by the official representative of the the owners, who is know to me for some time.

So, now there are two. May the best 'entity' win....

Shane, updated 27th February 2009, 16.30 GMT

Dear Eclipse 500 Owner,

As you must be aware, Eclipse Aircraft Corporation has been in Chapter 11 bankruptcy for the last two months. In the last few days events have unfolded that will take the company into Chapter 7 liquidation.

The future utility and value of our aircraft is now in serious jeopardy. If we as owners do not take control of these events, we risk having our planes grounded, become unserviceable, and ultimately become worthless. We can no longer rely on someone else.

The only way the owners can be assured of the continued use of their aircraft is to come together as a group and as a group participate in the creation of a successor organization that will have full control of the serviceability, modification, and long term reliability of our airplanes.

Today there are a number of outside entities that are “looking” at the owners as an income stream that they can fully exploit like a monopoly. These entities believe if they control the assets of Eclipse, they can charge the owners hundreds of thousands of dollars just to get their plane upgraded and serviced. One of these plans wants to charge owners a $300,000 surcharge for any modification plus the marked-up cost of parts and labor. Another plan wants to charge owner a yearly fee of up to $90,000 just to access service. This would add $500 an hour to the average cost of operating your aircraft significantly reducing its value.

We as owners can either sit by and watch others take control of our airplanes or we can take that control ourselves. This will not be easy or without cost. But it will be far better than the alternative.

The Ad Hoc Committee of Eclipse Customers has recommended that Eclipse Owners join together and form their own group, taking charge of their destiny. We, the owners on the steering committee of the Ad Hoc Committee of Eclipse Customers, will be holding conference calls in the next few days so that we can reach out to all owners and discuss next steps in this process. We ask that you join us on one of these conference calls.

Just email your name, street address, telephone number and Eclipse serial number to EclipseOwnersGroup@gmail.com and we will send you the access number, dates and time so that you can be part of one of these conference calls. If you cannot attend one of these calls, we will send you full information on how we can all join together.

We are on a very fast timetable. The liquidation sale will take place very quickly. We don’t have a great deal of time to protect our future. Let’s all unite, and as a solid unified group we will be able take control of our Eclipse future and be able to fully utilize our aircraft without being held hostage by others.


Mike Press, Randall Sanada, Ron Lebel, David Green, Ken Meyer

P.S. As we mentioned there are a number of “plans” being developed by others. Please make sure that if you have to sign an NDA to view those plans that you are not limiting your ability to join all the owners in a common effort.


ALBUQUERQUE, NM — February 26, 2009 — Today Phil Friedman announced the formation of New Eclipse Acquisition LLC (“New Eclipse”) which intends to bid for the assets of Eclipse Aviation Corporation in the Chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings.

Mr. Friedman is an experienced aerospace executive who has turned around several companies over his 28 year career. He is currently CEO of Harlow Aerostructures LLC in Wichita, KS which manufactures electro mechanical and structural assemblies for many OEM’s in the aircraft industry. Peter Reed, former CFO of Eclipse for seven years, is part of Friedman’s team and has actively participated in developing the New Eclipse business plan over the past
several months.

“I have been studying the Eclipse situation for over a year,” said Friedman. “It is sad that the company has ended up in bankruptcy, but I believe there is an excellent business opportunity going forward if managed correctly. Our plan is to take the first 24 months to stabilize the fleet of 259 aircraft and restore the brand. All aircraft will be brought up to the current type certification level so that ongoing service and support is as efficient as possible. We will also retain a significant number of engineers to improve aircraft reliability, upgrade the avionics suite, and focus on reducing manufacturing costs to industry benchmark levels. We will open several smaller service centers around the country to provide more convenient access to service the fleet and will also provide pilot training here in Albuquerque.”

“We will be charging customers to bring their aircraft up to the latest certification level. Our business plan assumes some of the customers will not be able to afford the upgrade. Our sales representatives will work with these customers at no charge to find new buyers who will have the means to pay for the upgrades. In providing this service, and with a business plan that translates into the New Eclipse becoming a company with a profitable long term future, we will be supporting the investment that the existing owners have made in their aircraft. Our objective is to bring the aftermarket price of the Eclipse up to the $2 million range, thereby providing a valuable service to all existing owners. We also plan to finish and sell seven new aircraft on the production line that are about 95% complete. In addition there are 28 DayJet aircraft that will need to be upgraded and refurbished and new owners found.”

“Employment levels over the next 24 months should be about 400 people as we upgrade and service the fleet,” said Friedman. “After the engineers have upgraded the avionics to the latest functionality, reduced manufacturing costs, and we have re-established relationships with the supplier base, we plan to restart new aircraft production in 2011 at modest levels, approximately 100 aircraft per year with pricing in the $2.4 million range. At that point employment will increase to approximately 600 people.”

“We certainly recognize that bringing Eclipse out of bankruptcy will be challenging. There are many parties that have been badly hurt and bridges will have to be rebuilt and relationships restored to execute on our plan. We understand that the employees who have been laid off need to feed their families and pay their mortgages. We are actively exploring ways to hold the key talent together during the Chapter 7 process so we can re-employ them with the new company.”

Mr. Friedman may be reached at (702) 449-8312 or email at phil@harlowair.com.

535 comments:

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airtaximan said...

Shane, I never heard that regarding the engines.. but don't worry, for the right price, they will provide engines.

Just this crowd refuses to acknowledge the cheap-jet is DOA.

From now on, your value proposition is relegated to "yup, I bought one of those". This plane will be more expensive to own and operate than the competition... no two ways about it.

Except for the silly stories and the piles of cash subsidies, it was always the case... but now it stares you square in the face.

bill e. goat said...

Hi Shane,
Thanks for the "snippits".
I'd forgotten about the DelayJet birds- who owns those know? Still Big Ed, or Eclipse- or maybe PWC? (Seems to me there was an issue with Pratt being owed money- not sure quite how that worked out- maybe they wanted to ship engines, but didn't trust Eclipse, and were "selling" them directly to aircraft purchasers (even though Eclipse Corp "hung" the engines- and ,amy depositors too...)
Thanks!

Beedriver said...

I think the category of twin engine personal jet is a viable one. the first time one of the single engine jets sucks in a bird and goes down they will be a rush for twin engine ones.
the question is when will the market really get going and will the EA500 be a player. If someone buys the Eclipse assets and focuses on support only for the next two years, while doing what needs to be done to finish the bird and install G1000 avionics or equivalent, their timing may be very good. There will be a reasonable size group with money looking for the next step up from a meridian or Single engine jet as the economy turns around. the primary competition will be used citations etc vs a new twin personal jet.
I am amazed at the number of people who will only buy a brand new airplane when for less than half the price they can get a better performing better equipped used airplane with brand new engines and avionics.

BricklinNG said...

The value of the EAC assets is the discounted future value of the income they can generate. Leaving aside any earnings from selling new airplanes (too speculative to count on), the only income will be to maintain & upgrade current fleet. The owner of the assets can sell these services as a monopolist and charge accordingly. Economic theory would say that someone will bid for assets n this basis. So the owners can bid too and charge themselves a bargain price for the services, but the price they must pay to win will effectively mean that they will experience a monopolist pricing scenario anyway. Pay up front or pay over time, the economic reality can not be avoided. IMHO

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Beedriver, if I had my druthers I would essentially follow the Sierra business model but for the EA-500. Smart boys down there in Uvalde.

bill e. goat said...

Shane posted a lead that Phil Friedman is one of those interested in Eclipse, and others have mentioned HarlowAir which apparently he owns (from the email address).

Getting a bit curious...
The telephone contact is a Las Vegas area code- guess he has incorporated "Eclipse Acquisition LLC" as a Nevada corp.

The press release (good scoop Shane!) reads:
"He is currently CEO of Harlow Aerostructures LLC in Wichita, KS which manufactures electro mechanical and structural assemblies..."

What is Harlow Aerostructures?
Harlow Air
Okay, let's do a Google search of their address from the web site:
1501 South McLean, Wichita Ks.

Hmmm, smallish facility, on a busy intersection, expansion is difficult. A bit more surfing yields an interesting article with just a "snippet" (ahem :) on Harlow, but an interesting picture of the market perceptions from April 2008 in Kansas:
GA climate April 2008

Hmmm, Harlow has 130 employees, limited room for expansion.

How about that crazy outfit in ABQ- beaucoup unused factory floorspace.

My proposition: Friedman is indeed interested in acquiring for a bargain ("snapping up" :) Eclipse just for the manufacturing capacity, not necessarily for the EA500. This helps make sense of his comment about waiting two years to restart the production line. (This sentiment is reinforced by the fact Harlow has no software capability- it's a metal cutting and bending shop...And FSW shop ???)

And what the heck, if the economy improves in two years, why s-u-r-e, go ahead with the EA500 reintroduction. Many suppliers will have dropped off line by then- but heck- Harlow IS a supplier, so they might tool up for the empennage construction themselves.

bill e. goat said...

And, if Harlow has a captive supply (down market for the boys in the avionics shop) and a captive market (who you gonna call to fix your EA500- Ghostbusters?) then its a good deal to turn 'em lose on product standardization- the engineering (and certification!) is already done.

bill e. goat said...

Gadfly,
Any truth to the rumor that Submarines are FSW too?
(that inquiring mind thing again...a condition aggravated by sub-zero windchill temperatures in Goatland)

No, but interestingly,
Navy Underwater Welding

But for sub construction, it looks like there are some other processes:
Navy Joining Center
EWI-Edison Welding Institute

bill e. goat said...

...speaking of engineering that's already done (and certified)...
Whytech,
"Current functionality is no better than early 70's. How much more dated does it need to become?"

This took a bit of poking around- I didn't remember the details...
---------------------------------

Ken answered some Avio questions a few weeks ago (Thanks Ken!),
"We've had onboard radar since NG 1.0. No radar altimeter, but TAWS pretty much obviates the need for it (and the 500' callout is priceless). XM weather continues to be via 496 or, WxWorx which I use and prefer to the Avidyne EX-500 I used to have."

And from a news article on the web:

"In a statement, the European Aviation Safety Agency said the certificate is valid for VFR and IFR operations, including RVSM and flight into known icing. The EASA requires Eclipse 500s to be equipped with the Avio NG 1.5 avionics suite and some equipment specific to European operations, such as dual mode-S transponders and a third attitude indicator-a “slight” weight addition.

"In addition, the EASA also mandates, for European-registered Eclipse 500s, several Airworthiness Directives of the US Federal Aviation Administration regarding fuel-filler adaptors, thrust levers and pitot/angle-of-attack probes.

"Roel Pieper, chief executive of Eclipse Aviation, told the media: “In tandem with the EASA announcement, the company received the FAA approval for the Eclipse 500’s upgraded Avio NG Total Aircraft Integration avionics system featuring dual Garmin GPS 400Ws. The upgraded avionics suite adds Rnav, coupled GPS/Rnav lateral navigation capability, coupled precision and non-precision approach capability and various other software upgrades.”
EASA Certification 22Nov2008
---------------------------------

Plus, it seemed to me one of the inherent advantages of Avio-NG are the hooks built in for synthetic vision.

Autothrottles- I don't know what the delay on that is- maybe planned for Avio-NG-2.0 ??

(Hey, there's a picture of a throttle quadrant on Harlow's homepage :)

chickasaw said...

Shodan,

So Canada got a shit sandwich, eh? I would like to thank Canada for all they have given us; the guv of Michigan, toxic waste, the BC carbon tax, a socialized medicine blue print, the idea for a GST, etc, etc.

Speaking of toxic waste; why doesn't Canada ship that crap to the middle of your country where no one lives, instead of shipping it to Michigan to mix with our ground water?

Oh BTW, Canada voted against the UN resolution to protect indigenous people.

bill e. goat said...

Shodan,
Welcome to the blog!
We appreciate and embrace dissenting and diverse opinions!!
.)

bill e. goat said...

Ah...
"As for the U.S. vote against the declaration, Loring, a Vietnam War veteran, said, ''The U.S. has always stood for freedom and democracy. Many of us have fought and died for those rights. It is unconscionable that the U.S. voted against the rights of indigenous peoples.''
Indian Country Today, Sep 15, 2008

bill e. goat said...

er...
"An enormous BP oil refinery in Indiana is planning to pour significantly more ammonia and industrial sludge into Lake Michigan, it was reported...
BP to dump more toxins in Lake Michigan

bill e. goat said...

um,
And worst of all- the Govenor of Michigan is
1) not ONLY was born in CANADA,
2) is DEMOCRAT !!!
3) and SHE'S A WOMAN

It's the Apocalypse !!
.)

Unbelievable said...

from a recent email...

Potential Option for Eclipse Deposit-Holders

My name is Randall Sanada. I am a member of the Eclipse Owners Club, the Ad Hoc Customers committee and also chairman of Jet Alliance, Inc., a VLJ management company. We have been in negotiations with UT Finance, the senior note-holder on the DayJet fleet and have arrived at a possible solution to salvage significant value for many of the deposits sent to Eclipse. This new option for participating Deposit-Holders will enable them to enjoy ownership in Eclipse jets and the potential opportunity to recoup a substantial amount of their funds when the aircraft are subsequently resold.

First, you should know that there is a proposal in progress to acquire and reconstitute a service, maintenance and upgrades operation from the Eclipse Chapter 7 Bankruptcy to ensure ongoing support for the aircraft—Jet Alliance is actively working with this group as well.

Bottom line, we believe that it will be possible to enable those Deposit-Holders who would like to go forward with their purchase of an Eclipse jet to do so by putting what would have been their final 40% payment into an escrow account for the purchase of the DayJet fleet. Participating Deposit-Holders would not receive a new Eclipse jet, but rather an ownership interest representing a ½ share of a near-new DayJet aircraft which would be refurbished and upgraded to FIKI/Garmin 400/Avio 1.5.

The full DayJet fleet will be available to participating Deposit-Holders on an interchangeable basis under a shared ownership arrangement. Aircraft will be geographically based near concentrations of participating Deposit-Holders for ease of access. You will have use of company pilots or you can fly the aircraft yourself, if properly qualified.

We have not finalized the transaction with UT Finance, but should be able to do so shortly. The offering will be on a first-come, first-served basis. Please send an email to us if this is something you would like to evaluate further. We will be finalizing specifics shortly and will forward them to parties expressing an interest.

Sincerely,

Randall Sanada
Chairman, Jet Alliance, Inc.
info@jetalliance.com

EclipsePilotOMSIV said...

Finally Weighing In,

Thats old news at the speed of whats going on right now. Just FYI. It also sounds like a little bit of BS at this point, because the dust has yet to settle....

Yeah there is a letter from Jepp out there regarding the updates for NG planes. As I got that info from a third party, i will not post it here. However, it has to do with the fact that the integration with the IS&S deal was not done by Jepp, but Eclipse and it seems at this point they have not figured out how to do it. they say they are working on it, but it will not be available for this next Nav cycle. So it will be a bit. I think we probably will know more about the future of Eclipse before those boys at Jepp get all their ducks in a row regarding the updates.

Still hoping for a positive outcome.

Some people would be real jerks to start asking for the prices they want to service these planes. But I guess welcome to America. Where you can charge for a rare service, or comic book for that matter. Not to mention a real treasure, we can say we're just not going to pay people for things anymore if we don't feel like it. Bankruptcy is great (not really), but then again at times it can be a real bitch.

AvidPilot said...

There is just no end to the swinging dick stories when it comes to Eclipse.

The word "Eclipse" and "BS" can almost be used interchangeably these days.

A new plant to produce Eclipse jets is going to be built in Russia.
Phil whatshisname is going to buy the remaining assets out of bankruptcy and put the plane back into production.
A group of diehards led by none other than Ken and Mike are going to take over.
Blah blah blah.

All talk. All BS. Just like the air taxi business. Just like the 2600 order book. Just like Roel's plans. Just like Vern. Just like Ken.

I think the only reason the EA500 was built was to feed the critic blog with new material day after day. It really keeps delivering, doesn't it!

fred said...

monsieur Shane

But they are all pretty vague about a key question.

Who will buy FPJ's in the next few years?


you're being so right ...
I wonder how many times the same ones have to get burned to learn the lesson ...

if Fire = Pain
then
Fpj = losses !

the only one to keep on laughing about current situation : RiP !

how about someone proposing 28M$ for useless junk ? just before an other one who will propose 280 ... and a last one who will try to "win the Big Prize" in a bidding of 2800M$ ???

(that would be some kind of good : it would reimburse about everybody ! ;-) )

fred said...

have arrived at a possible solution to salvage significant value for many of the deposits sent to Eclipse.

there is at least one word having :

no sens
no meaning
no future

into this sentence , do you wonder which one ? ;-)

fred said...

Billy ...


about Easa FULL Cert. :

thanks for the link , as it says quite a lot about the matter ...

but i'm kinda lost in the topic ...

Full EASA was supposed to bring the money deal ...

But Money Deal was supposed to allow FULL EASA ...

kind of loop-hole , isn't it ?

Shane Price said...

UPDATED HEADLINE POST

Urgent, for owners and pilots. Please read the FAA notice, and pay particular attention if you have an IS&S display (AvioNG) installed after s/n 104 and retrofitted to a few of the earlier birds.

Shane

WhyTech said...

"It's the Apocalypse !!"

Sure got that right!

flyboymark said...

I jus' Knew it!

"Step rite up, buy your PMA'd "EXPRIMENTAL" placards rite here..."

SPECIAL:
$100 bucks apiece to the first 260 purchasers!

It seems the FAA has answered some questions for the owners. But if I were an owner I'd be fill'n my britches as time passes. I guess at this point you could convert the Tonka Jet to EXPERIMENTAL?
Boy! Sure would resolve a lot of paperwork…….

Flyboys-An affectionate term for the jovial clan of aviators under daily duress of the great wars.

airsafetyman said...

I just received an e-mail from the Treasurer of Nigeria. Seems they have purchased the Eclipse assets and need someplace in the US to put the $3,000,000,000 they have budgeted to finish the airplanes and restart the line. If I could show my good faith by transferring an initial payment of $10,000......

flyboymark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
flyboymark said...

Very funny ASM....

bill e. goat said...

FinallyWeighingIn,
Thanks for the info on the DelayJet airplanes- looks like our friends in Canada (or maybe UT Finance is U.S.-based) just became major suppliers of VLJ's. (They'll probably "deliver" more airplanes than Eclipse this year...)

How 'bout them Jet Alliance fellers???

"'This is the day of the VLJ', Jet Alliance chairman Randall Sanada said at a Nov. 7 news conference at AOPA Expo. 'The media have been suggesting that the very light jet era has come and gone, but if ever there was a time when fuel economy and time efficiency were severely needed, this is it.'"

Hype, you dare to suggest? I'm aghast!
AOPA, Nov 08, 2008

Or,
www.Jetalliance.com
(The web site didn't work, but, ah- don't worry- just send money :)

(It does sound like they are legit though- 3 Eclipsi, 1 Mustang, plus a Phenom and Hondajet on order. By the way, you can fly in Eclipse sn 001 with them- not sure if they pay you, or the other way around).

It is thoughtful of Jet Alliance to offer half of an Eclipse for 40% of the list price (say, 0.4 x $2.2 = $880K). OR, you can buy a complete one yourself, for about the same price, for the early sn such as these. Hey, who said Wedge wouldn't deliver on the $875K price!!
--------------------------------

Hmmmm.

It sounds like in Oct 2008, Eclipse owned the DelayJet airplanes, and was marketing them "as is"- I wonder when UTFinance made their grab- must have been between Oct and BK filing, or did the court "give" them to UT during the ch11 filing?

(Fred- does Jet Alliance also have a nice tall building for sale in France?)
---------------------------------

An AvWeek article on DayJet aircraft, from Oct 2008:
Eclipse 500s For Sale "As Is"

"(Mike) McConnell said that if prospective buyers want Eclipse to upgrade the first 16 ex-DayJet aircraft to current production standards, "It's going to get squirrelly." Eclipse has not established a retail price for performing such upgrades not covered by warranty and that scheduling priorities at service centers will dictate which EA 500 airplanes will be worked on first. 'All current customers are in line before the DayJet airplanes.'

"Buyers should be aware that full factory support is critical to accomplishing such upgrades. Only aircraft fitted with both the aero and engine performance improvement package and Avio NG are eligible for the flight into known icing upgrade kit. Any airframe, system or avionics changes require modifications to the FAA-certified aircraft computer system [ACS] software because of the high level of system integration aboard the aircraft.

"Of prime importance to potential buyers is the fact that Eclipse is unlikely to release ACS software source code to unauthorized third-party modifiers. As a result, obtaining independent STC approvals for any modifications, other than perhaps stand-alone, autonomous GPS navigators not be linked to other avionics or the autopilot, will be challenging and expensive".

AvWeek, Oct 23, 2008

flyboymark said...

I guess its time to install a set of 2" vacuum operated steam gages and a couple of ole' King radios from about 20 years ago over to one side?
Lemme' see...
1. Artificial horizon
2. Airspeed indicator
3. Rate of climb
4. Needle-n-ball
5. Altimeter
5. VOR/Glide slope head
6. A good handheld GPS
Did I forget anything guys?


Or you could really go 1st class and install a UPS MX-20 and a CNX-80 like in our Aerostar!
(now owned by Garmin..)
Lemme' see
Has:
1. CERTIFIED GPS approaches
2. Sat weather
3. Moving map
4. Airport taxi map
5. Airborne traffic
And that's jus the beginning of what this several year old unit can do.

And you can update it yourself without having to suck hind tit to some other OEM company.

airtaximan said...

ASMan,

I received a similar email,

except they said they had the $3Billion, and just eneded to legally transfer the money to the US - they are going to pay me $10,000,000 for my bank account information, and letter authorizing them to take the money from my account, less my commission.

flyboymark said...

Has Ken flown his Tonka Toy anywhere since his "lolly pop" maneuver?

(Or is he AOG?)

airtaximan said...

"Some people would be real jerks to start asking for the prices they want to service these planes."

I guess you would rather have someone promise to do it for half, take some of your money, then tell you its not going to be finished, and then tell you, its going to cost double?

Folks, this is reality. You may end up with a few mom and pop outfits competing on price, trying to "help" you ut at rates you THINK are affordable... or someone will see a way to make money, and provide some scaled up retrofits/support and you WILL pay dearly.

bill e. goat said...

Beedriver, CWMOR,
link to a Citation mod shop in Uvalde, Tx
Sierra Industries
Uvalde, Tx
(80 miles west of San Antonio)

flyboymark said...

Release of source code would be a big help,but there should be some very strict limits on its implimentation.

bill e. goat said...

FlyBoyMark,
That's an impressive list of equipment, but I don't see a cork for the fuel quantity indication system.

flyboymark said...

Well! I did ask my copilots if I forgot anything... ;)

airtaximan said...

regarding the Jetalliance "deal"

make sure you ask Randall Sandana, how many Eclipse planes his customers have on order, or he has on order for his custoers... how many Jetalliance paid in clients there are, how many employees they have, how many planes under contract, etc. Do they have a core fleet? HAve they ever operated a maintenance center.

- how come their due diligence led them to recommend EA50's to their program participants?

- Ask for resumes of their key employees and management.

Just be careful, this guy seems to have been led down the garden path, like a blind man spun around a dozen time, or he was close to Vern.

- if he had/has enough folks in his Jetalliance program, he should just snap up the Dayjet planes for them/with them - its a great deal? Right?

Or, he's just trying to FIND some clients.

drillingahead said...

ColdWetMackarelofReality, there is a proposal out there that was sent to the ad hoc committee to involve Sierra in Texas in servicing and updating the fleet. The owners would be well advised to consult with Mr. Huffstulter on this if he has any interest. They have the eng., manufacturing, and contacts needed to poss. pull it off. All the other proposals I have seen are one trick ponies and are way over their heads. Sierra has avionics, manufacturing, fleet service, and a great relationship with the FAA.

flyboymark said...

BEG,
That "cork" reminds of an earlier time and place in aviation when I did my solo x-country in an 85 HP J-3 When I was 16 years old....
Days gone by I really miss.

fred said...

am i understanding this right ?

Sn 105 and above cannot be upgraded and therefor are (nearly) worthless ?

which in return mean that only the 104 Aft delivered have some value , today ( as : let's hope the fluff can be "fixed" tomorrow ! ;-) )

that would be real "disruptive" !

airtaximan said...

chick,

careful, one switch OFF, and no lights in NY... and many other sates as well, and I hear the rates for electricity are much lower for Americans than Canadians.

Just a thought.

bill e. goat said...

ATM.
"Or, he's just trying to FIND some clients."

Um, YES!!
---------------------------------

Flyboymark
I STILL have 85 HP (theoretically), and STILL act like a 16 y.o. !!

I'm a low hour (?low IQ too?) pilot, so I'm still having a blast going nowhere, slow- but enjoying every minute of it!

(And, there are a lot of them if there's a headwind :)

flyboymark said...

I've been kidding around with my wife on an idea..
Kinda tired of all the hustle and bustle of high tech flying....It's becoming work instead of joy...
The thought of a nice little pristine Cessna 140A model and jus' traveling the country side with my wife and little Chihuahua like vagabonds for a month or two. VFR, no GPS, no gadgets, jus’ fly it the old fashion way with a E6B2 and some sectionals and maybe a VOR receiver.

The drone of the 90 hp continental and looking out the side window for hours watching the cows in the pastures, a farmer riding his tractor mowing the field, I can see a deer leaping towards cover as the droning approach of the Cessna draws near, spotting a fisherman in small row boat on a lake, being close enough to see his can of beer in his and as he waves at me, wondering where all the little cars are going as they roll down the ribbons of roads, off in the distance to one side a dark towering cumulo nimbus with lightning bolts striking at the earth, I see a school with all the children playing in the playground wondering where they will all go when they grow up, For a moment I do my instrument scan, then glance with smile at my wife and scratch my dozing little dogs ear in my wife‘s lap, the familiar and comforting smell of the ancient little Cessna’s interior tells me I’m home and where I belong. It’s late and I need to find a nice little grass strip with fuel somewhere to land for the night and find a room…………till the next day, then we’ll takeoff and head for the mountains to see what over there……….

Turboprop_pilot said...

Shodan’s recent posts made me crystallize some ideas that will be suggested to my investor group as a subject for discussion. His line:

“private jets are cheaper to run than commercial when the guys they carry burn tens of thousands of dollars for every hours of their time spent not turning their company around”

These are the same CEOs who destroyed the world’s economy, right? These are the guys whose pay has risen from 42x the average hourly worker in 1980 to 411x in 2001?

I’m going to toss this out because it will get a giant rise out of B95 at least and will get some intelligent comments from several other contributors (BT, please chime in).

Executive pay:

I submit that the quality of US executive leadership has declined as their pay has risen. A reference http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10002825.shtml
Has this quote:
"Indeed, the evidence is that as an executive's pay increases, the performance of the company deteriorates."



Looking at the ratio of CEO pay to the average hourly worker:

1980 42
1990 85
2001 411

Looking around the world: Top executives in the U.S. now make about twice the pay of their counterparts in France, Germany and the U.K., and about four times that of Japanese and Korean corporate chieftains.

The distribution of wealth is more skewed to the top % than anytime since 1928 (I hate this comparison).

With executives making such high salaries that they can afford multiple vacation homes, 200’ private yachts, mansions, large jet aircraft and so on, I believe that they have to spend a significant percentage to their time managing and planning their personal empires and less time managing their companies.

Were the business leaders of the 1950s and 60s less capable? Has the quality of management improved in the new century? Hasn’t the level of honesty declined?

Wedge’s dreams fit in with this evolved world- lie, push for an early IPO based on lies, take the money and run.

The funny thing is that I am a successful entrepreneur and made enough money to pay cash for a new TBM- not a socialist but very distressed about the direction of the last few years and hoping to formulate a plan to rein in the excess within a free market system.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to formulate a mechanism to ratchet the pay back to reasonable levels that does not have large costs and unforeseen consequences.

I hope to develop this hypothesis further with input from my fellow investors and blog members, many of whom are successful business people.

Turboprop_pilot

flyboymark said...

T.P.,
I think investor/stock holder apathy in holding BOD's, CFO's, CEO's accountable is part of the reason in addition to obnoxiously greedy individuals in those positions. The aircraft itself is an invaluable tool that has proven its worth many times over.

Bonuses and options are not the issue, it's the culture of geed that has permeated the corporate structures. I blame nobody but the apathy of the investors and stock holders for even permitting these things to happen.

WhyTech said...

"take the money and run."

This and "catch me if you can" pervade American business and politics today. Sad indeed.

Our new President may turn out to be the latest poster boy for this mentality. It seems that he plans to redistribute other people's wealth while he enjoys 8 years of living large, and then goes on to books, speaking engagements, etc to the tune of several hundreds million dollars. Only in America!

TBMs_R_Us said...

WhyTech,

8 years? You gotta be kidding! We'll be flat ass broke as a country in 3. Trying running for re-election after pulling the whole thing down.

Shane Price said...

AOG count

I have this idea. Let's try to track the number of FPJ's that are grounded for some technical reason.

Lack of funds for fuel is NOT a technical reason, before any of you lot start mucking with my rule book. Which I don't have yet, but that's beside the point.

Anyway, I'm going to start by looking for 'early' birds that are lurking in out of the way places.

Anyone else like to join in?

The game is simple. Report the tail, location and 'probable cause', ideally with the length of time the aircraft has been at the current location. Don't forget to remind us where the 'bent' ones are (the Brandywine aircraft for instance) and any that have ended up in Europe or the Far East.

Use the usual email address for your reports

eclipsecriticng@gmail.com

I'm already tracking one down, which an admirer sent me earlier today.

Shane

WhyTech said...

"Trying running for re-election after pulling the whole thing down."

Well, he did get elected on the promise of pulling the whole thing down.

airtaximan said...

TP,

while I agree with what you write... the issue MIGHT be scale... if folks at the top are managing larger, more global companies, perhaps the metrics is not a good one.

Look at pay vs revenue per employee...

I swear, I have no sympathy for rediculous exec pay, and the behaviour we've seen, BUT, I am just trying to have a look at the responsibility side, or the vlaue side.

If in fact, execs are making 10x, but they are responsible for managin 20x and are doing it with 75% of the staff (hence, a real need for corp jets!!!), perhaps its not out of whack.

Also, the same argument goes for corp jets - many people demonize them today, as examples of excess, not the least is my Buddy OBAMA. But, he earns, what $450k and lfies around with a fleet of jets behind him, in a BOEING... I guess his time and responsibility warrant it?

If a company used to have 50 VPs handling the work now doen by ten, you think they could get apid more, and use a private jet?

I do.

Dave said...

Also, the same argument goes for corp jets - many people demonize them today, as examples of excess, not the least is my Buddy OBAMA. But, he earns, what $450k and lfies around with a fleet of jets behind him, in a BOEING... I guess his time and responsibility warrant it?

Obama hired the same decorator as John Thain.

WhyTech said...

Anyone seen Ken? Just looked at Flight Aware and N85SM looks like its still AOG at Wickenburg, unless Ken is sneaking around VFR, but the he'd have to do that at a very fuel inefficient altitude, and Ken would never do that.

airtaximan said...

Dave,

are you serious?

That's funnny... I would make a comment about Hello Kettle... but its politically sensitive...

Dave said...

are you serious?

I'm completely serious and if Obama was a Republican, you'd hear nothing but that on the news, but instead it's virtually unreported.

flyboymark said...

WT,
After his “telling” lollypop maneuver, he jus' might HAVE to be flying around VFR....

flyboymark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
flyboymark said...

......hence his scavenging of EAC?

x said...

This version of the Flight Center Delivery list has a hyperlink to Flight Aware data

Click on the link cell and a small icon will appear to the top left of the cell. This will open the relevant flight aware data page for the craft. Excluded craft will simply produce a generic page.

I scraped the first 100 or so craft for last Flight Aware data.

I'll automate the scrape process tonight and clean up the cruft.

WhyTech said...

"This will open the relevant flight aware data page for the craft"

Works great. N85SM shows a flight every few days up until the lollipop flight on Feb 18, and then nothing thereafter. Either the airplane isnt flying or Ken has blocked it.

AvidPilot said...

That info from the FAA is painful. It pretty much killed whatever resale market was left for the EA500.

Just when you think the news for Eclipse owners couldn't get any worse, it does.

Why didn't these owners bail out while they had the chance?

bill e. goat said...

"Obama hired the same decorator as John Thain."

Well, first I wondered who John Thain was.
John Thain

Well, it seems that some of the $700B Wall Street give away that Good Ole G.W. Bush DEMANDED congress approve without reading the fine print, was misused (I mean, misused in other ways than excessive CEO compensation, or buying out healthy competitors).

So, what did Good 'Ole Obama have to say about it?

"On January 23, 2009, President Obama referred to John Thain by saying "the reports that we’ve seen over the last couple of days about companies that have received taxpayer assistance then going out and renovating bathrooms or offices or in other ways not managing those dollars appropriately." Obama's press secretary Robert Gibbs also said taxpayer money shouldn't go to "line the pockets of people" who've gotten financial assistance. "The American people need to be greatly assured that their hard-earned money is not going to the bonuses or the remodeling of an office at a bank that’s in trouble," Gibbs said."

Okay, so who IS the interior designer guy? BTW, Poor Laura just spent $500K on China- two weeks before leaving office.
Michelle selects decorator

"The choice of Smith, 44, appears to be the first executive decision by the incoming First Lady. In a statement, Michelle Obama said: "Michael shares my vision for creating a family friendly feel to our new home and incorporating some new perspectives from some of America's greatest artists and designers."

"Smith promised to reflect the family's style: "The family's casual style, their interest in bringing 20th-century American artists to the forefront and utilising affordable brands and products will serve as our guiding principles as we make the residence feel like their home."

After studying at Otis College of Art in Los Angeles and the Victoria & Albert Museum in London before opening a furniture shop and design company in California, Smith was named designer of the year by Elle Décor magazine in 2003".

WHAT a RAT BASTARD- DESIGNER OF THE YEAR BY ELLE MAGAZINE !!

QUICK- CALL RUSH LIMBAUGH AND FOX NEWS. (The NERVE- USING "AFFORDABLE BRANDS").

Oh- never mind. Somebody already did. That's the only "journalistic" outlet that linked that made the Obama/Smith/Thain connection.

You don't think they were trying to do a "guilt by association" slam, do you, by associating Obama with Thain, through a nefarious and sinister interior decorator? Are people so hungry to live in their own comfort zones that they'd buy a blatantly transparent 10-year-old's logical argument like that??? And NOT be outraged at being manipulated and treated like simpletons???

Like I told Fred- the average media in the US is prescribed for 12 year olds. But somebody's got to entertain the 10 year olds- we've got Faux "News" and Raunch Limbaugh.
---------------------------------

And by the way, it seems Good 'Ole G.W. did a little remodeling of his own.
White House Interrogation Room
Who would print drivel like that in a book ?!?
Oh, just some Pulitzer Prize winning, Master's Degree holder from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism.
(Almost in the same league as Faux "News"...NOT !!)
Ron Suskind

...But, that kind of thing doesn't happen in America, does it?
Protecting American Royalty
--------------------------------

But, in case we're worried about this period of transition, we can, ah, "rest" assured, Dick is lurking out there somewhere too- .)
Seems Dick has his own digs
(And DO read the banner at the top, before you get all worked up :)

bill e. goat said...

And, Ronnie ordered the 747's,
and G.H.W. Bush took delivery,
and G.W. Bush retired the last 707
(And started looking at Airbus replacements, as well as Boeing).
Air Force One

Interestingly,
"United Airlines has the distinction of being the only commercial airline to have operated Executive One, the designation given to a civilian flight on which the U.S. President is aboard. On 26 December 1973, then-President Richard Nixon flew as a passenger aboard a Washington Dulles to Los Angeles International flight"

Dave said...

You don't think they were trying to do a "guilt by association" slam, do you, by associating Obama with Thain, through a nefarious and sinister interior decorator? Are people so hungry to live in their own comfort zones that they'd buy a blatantly transparent 10-year-old's logical argument like that??? And NOT be outraged at being manipulated and treated like simpletons???

It's a matter of being a hypocrite. Obama goes and criticizes someone for using taxpayer money to redecorate and then Obama uses taxpayer money to redecorate and goes so far as to use the same guy of the person he criticized. I don't know why you say the decorator is sinister as the decorator didn't do anything wrong. It's called "do as say, not as I do."

Shane Price said...

I know it's been a quiet day on the blog, but I fail to see the link between interior design and the FPJ....

Did someone say 'FPJ' around here?

Good, that's a relief.

Did anyone notice this bit in the FAA notice, which relates to supply of spare parts:-

Be aware that there may be interface issues that only Eclipse can address.

Hang on, Eclipse is no more. It is an ex aircraft company. It has shed it's mortal coil and passed over.

So, even if you CAN get the bits you need, you might not be able to get them installed correctly.

And if you fly around without the correctly installed bits, your insurance company is bound to take a dim view of any incident.

Speaking of insurance, why would ANYONE risk flying an FPJ at this time. Those insurance people are very good at finding ways to avoid paying claims, and the current 'situation' would seem ripe with get out clauses.

Take exceptional care out there....

Shane

airtaximan said...

Dave, the guy flies around on a private plane, and so do many politicians.

I guess they think they are busier or more important than everyone, including folks running multi-Billion companies.

I honestly do not get it?

bill e. goat said...

In case you haven't guessed...I'm fed up with executives (business, or political) being treated like royalty.

I work in the commercial aviation industry, buy I can tell you, I'm damn tired of hearing the argument about biz jets being tools.

They're perks, and anyone arguing otherwise is rationalizing. I'd say 1/3 of the travel is "business" related- the rest is just plain perks.

I'm fine with that, as long as I a tax payer am not the one paying for the perk.

When's the last time you a biz jet fitted with commercial business-class interior??

Yeah- wood and gold trim is a business tool?? S-U-R-E.

(And yeah, I've got a lot of friends in the interiors business. Airplane interiors that is- not White House remodeling interiors...)

Bill Gate's business jet?
Bill Flies Coach

So does this guy:
India's Bill Gates
---------------------------------
(or maybe not...)
Bill Breaks Down- and buys a jet, that is

No- really !!
Bill buys a Challenger 604, circa late 90's
What is significant- it is a Bill Gates asset- NOT a Microsoft asset (although with Bill on the sidelines, they probably have some corporate aviation now).
--------------------------------
Surfing around, the "down market" has hurt more "aviation departments" than I realized:
Microsoft "Aviation Department" cutbacks
(Microsoft Flight Simulator software)

Dave said...

I know it's been a quiet day on the blog, but I fail to see the link between interior design and the FPJ....

It's a slow news day.

So, even if you CAN get the bits you need, you might not be able to get them installed correctly.

Hopefully this will the shine the light on the strengths and weaknesses of integrated systems as it relates to aviation. I have major issues with the Avio in particular, but I think it is worthwhile discussing the semi-proprietary G1000 (I'm calling it semi-proprietary because it is made by one company but it is on many different brands of aircraft). I believe that integrated systems are not inherently wrong, but there are certain industries where they do present a distinct danger. If Eclipse did not have Albatross, the aircraft would be more valuable right now and Albatross could end up being the root cause for the aircraft eventually ending up grounded.

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

"I don't know why you say the decorator is sinister as the decorator didn't do anything wrong."

I know that- I was being satirical. And I didn't bring him up in the first place.

And I referred to his (excellent) credentials.

"It's a matter of being a hypocrite."

No, I'm sorry- I find that argument, and the original, as so biased and illogical that it insults my intelligence.

But maybe viewers of Faux "News" have grown so accustomed to that, they've forgotten what that means.

WhyTech said...

"They're perks, and anyone arguing otherwise is rationalizing"

IMO, you have this EXACTLY right. Perks, and an ego trip. During my days as a CEO, I traveled in coach on the airlines to set an example. Didnt have any productivity issues at all. Businesses should not be subsidizing the life style of employees, including the CEO.

airtaximan said...

Shane,

most insurers are smart enough to cease coverage in OEM BK cases like this.

airtaximan said...

thanks Whytech, perhaps you should testify in Congress and we can shut down GA.

there's a study out there, citing the Fortune 100 companies that use GA and those that don't. those that do, have greater ROI than their peers that do not. ROassets, ROcapital, by every metric they excell comapred to therir peer group, by a nice margin as well.

I just don't buy the argument this is all perk - I think the demands of many exec positions requires rapidity never seen before to react to global digital circumstances... things change fast.

Also, staffs have been cut, and execs are expected to do more. If a jet helps, its a useful tool.

Now, the decorator? That's another issue
;)

Dave said...

I know that- I was being satirical. And I didn't bring him up in the first place.

You're the one who brought up guilt by association. For all I know Thain and Obama hate each other with a passion, but that has nothing to do with spending taxpayer money to redecorate. If Obama is going to vilify Thain for hiring Michaels on the taxpayer's dime, Obama shouldn't hire Michaels on the taxpayer's dime.

airsafetyman said...

You can bet that after Mr. Bigdome goes through the TSA "security" a few times and is greeted with the surly cabin crew, filthy airliner interiors, and generally abysmal service he will direct his company to at least start chartering with well-run organizations like Net-Jets even if he has to set up a dummy corporaton to hide who is really paying for it.

airsafetyman said...

The TSA now has the body scanners that give essentially a graphic picture of the human body. Can you imagine anyone that has the resources to charter NOT doing so? Who in their right mind would put themselves, their employees, or their families through that? Can't you just imagine some 300 pound TSA pervert leering at a photo scan of your wife or daughter? All in the interests of national security, of course.

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sphealey said...

Shorter FAA bulletin: "Sure, go ahead and fly it until (a) something breaks (b) various maintenance time periods expire (c) a serious fleet-wide deficiency is uncovered. At that point be sure to rent VERY cheap long-term parking space at your FBO. Loooooong-term parking.

sPh

Funny, I got a letter from a Nigerian bank too. They had sent Eclipse Aircraft $200,000,000.00 and are really angry that it seems to have disappeared.

WhyTech said...

"there's a study out there, "

There's a study out there supporting almost any position you want to take on any issue. Why do you think Buffet named his first acft "Indefensible?" He has changed his tune now that he owns NetJets however.

bill e. goat said...

ASM,
I'm fine with Mr. CEO flying charter- I think THAT would be a true boon to business productivity- and to general aviation- with higher utilization driving the prices down, so even MORE CEO's could fly charter.

But it would be hard to justify an expense report that shows Vail and Aspen as destinations.

Or only the kids and wife as passengers.

Siphoning off business travelers would probably force the airlines to improve their crappy service and lower prices, benefiting everyone.
---------------------------------

TSA- I fume every time use them- there has to be a better way. Forcing some hot shot CEO's to use them, would probably result in improvements for the rest of us.

WhyTech said...

"at least start chartering with well-run organizations like Net-Jets "

Recently got a quote from Net Jets (Marquis Jet affiliate actually) on a frequent round trip I make - $160,000 on NJ vs $2000 first class on the airlines. Obscene!

airsafetyman said...

I flew for two flight departments in my career. Both used their aircraft exclusively for business. We would even pick up company truck drivers if they had an emergency, not to mention hauling IT types and their equipment around. No solid gold or gold-plating in the airplanes at either flight department. The airplanes did have wooden fold-down tables, though.

Dave said...

I'm fine with Mr. CEO flying charter- I think THAT would be a true boon to business productivity- and to general aviation- with higher utilization driving the prices down, so even MORE CEO's could fly charter.

That would seem to be more cost efficient. I think these execs having their own corporate fleets is a status thing rather than being the cost effective.

airsafetyman said...

"Recently got a quote from Net Jets (Marquis Jet affiliate actually) on a frequent round trip I make - $160,000 on NJ vs $2000 first class on the airlines. Obscene!"

First off, considering the total experience, there is no "First Class" on the airlines anymore, so you can forget about that. I don't know the specifics of your trip. We used to figure that if four or more were traveling together it was cheaper to take the company airplane. We would often make two or three stops going outbound from our home airport to drop off people and the same number of stops coming back to pick them up. It was a very efficient operation. It was not uncommon to take a single group of people and visit plants in three different states and have everyone back by nightfall. It was impossible to do that by the airlines years ago; the airlines have only gotten abysmally worse. Plus I can name several commuter airlines that are extremely unadvisable to fly at any time for any reason.

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
flyboymark said...

ASM,
I couldn’t agree more...
I've been flying aircraft now for 39 years. If you're an executive and have limited time, you also need to stay rested and in good health. I ride in airliners about once a year out of necessity because of VERY long routes. In general with the Aerostar, it takes the same amount of time on most missions as going by commercial. When I arrive at the FBO, the rental car is on the ramp waiting for me with the trunk open and in less than 10 minutes I'm on my way to my final destination that’s usually only a few minutes away from the GA airport. No traffic, no crowds, no dirty places where everybody's snotty hand has been, no head lice on the aircrafts interior, no rude people waiting in line, no hordes of people coughing on me, no waiting for lost luggage.

AND of course the departure time; "When I feel good damn and ready and when I feel like it..." without the indignation of all of the above and having my crotch examined too by the TSA.

And I can carry my loaded gun with me too.....

If your a pilot and have a suitable aircraft, why the hell would you wanna fly any other way?

And that all applies to my R/V too because I hate motel rooms(only a pillow case between you and the snotty/drooly pillow) and restaurants for the same reasons unless they are REALLY necessary.

Baron95 said...

TP said... Were the business leaders of the 1950s and 60s less capable?
Has the quality of management improved in the new century? Hasn’t the level of honesty declined?

Yes. Yes. No.

Don't romanticize the past too much.

Did you REALLY like the golden age of aviation? The age when tickets cost 4x what they cost now and took hours to hand-write, where cabins were smoked-filled cesspool, where first class seats didn't lie flat, where the airlines were killing their customers 6 times more often per departure?

Do you really think it was THAT hard to manage United and American and Delta when the government regulated your routes, fares, and gave you "friendly" mail contracts?

Do you really think it was THAT hard to manage a bank that could only have passbook or checking accounts + CDS and could only make commercial or fixed rate auto/home loans?

The world has changed. Business velocity has increased over 100 fold. IBM could take 10 years to upgrade their computer line from /360 to /370. Now they have 10 months to do that.

Consumers (rightly or wrongly) want a huge variety of financial services, have a huge variety of competing products and services, have information at their fingertips, can buy airline tickets, mortgages, etc with reverse auction techniques.

It is a different world.

Oh and lets not "remember" that those 60s execs were routinely pressuring subordinates into sexual affairs, excluding blacks from employment, dumping at will on the environment, cutting back-room deal with politicians here and abroad with impunity, etc, etc, etc.

Why do you feel you need to limit executive pay? Hasn't the market already done that?

Lets check the income tax return for the Lehman boys in 2007 and compare with the one they will file for 2009.

What is you guess? 50% reduction? 80%? 90%? 99%? 99.9%?

The market is working mate.

As a matter of fact, compensation is falling so fast that now the US govmt is trying to figure out how to boost compensation. Go figure.

I'm not sure if that is what you were expecting from B95 - but that is all I can provide on a Sunday evening.

Cheers.

WhyTech said...

"First off, considering the total experience, there is no "First Class" on the airlines anymore"

No question, its not what it used to be. However, we are talking about what is cost effective. If I am a shareholder, I want the difference in my pocket, not subsidizing the ego of the CEO.

In fairness to charter, my example was for a trip with an extended stay over - the fee included a deadhead leg each way the reposition the acft. So, would have been $80,000 vs $2000. Since I dont travel with an entourage, could not have filled the seats.

Even more graphic example of gross waste on the part of the corporate privileged: just went BOS to LGB and return on Jet Blue in coach. Round trip for $400. On schedule, no TSA issues, etc. A very satisfactory flight (and I am not easy to please). No justification for the shareholders top spend a nickel more.

Dave said...

And I can carry my loaded gun with me too.....

Why would you carry a loaded gun in your private aircraft? As a matter of gun safety that seems rather dangerous and it's not like you have to worry about someone robbing you or breaking in.

airsafetyman said...

flyboymark,

Very well said!

Baron95 said...

airtaximan said...

most insurers are smart enough to cease coverage in OEM BK cases like this.

Really? We had a Piper Seneca when Piper went bankrupt and didn't even bother to talk to our insurer - neither did they bother to talk to us. Life just went on. We paid the premiums, they provided coverage. And since I never had any claims, they made a lot of money.

The IDEAL customer for an insurance company is the owner of an AOG plane. Rake in the premiums, no chance of a claim.

WhyTech said...

"and have limited time, you also need to stay rested and in good health."

Everyone has limited time, and needs to stay rested and in good health. This kind of flabby thinking is what justifies most corporate excess.

I have been flying more years than you have. My beef is not with airplanes, its with waste and screwing the shareholders.

Baron95 said...

WhyTech said...

"First off, considering the total experience, there is no "First Class" on the airlines anymore"

No question, its not what it used to be.


There you guys go again, romanticizing the past. I don't fly first, but I do fly business class and get the occasional upgrade, when I fly internationally.

The service provided to business and first class today is orders of magnitude better than anything provided in the past.

ALL, and I mean, ALL top airlines offer lie flat business and first class seats. Most with hard privacy walls around you, some with fully enclosed cabins (e.g. SQ, EK).

ALL have top notch entertainment and communication services and top notch gourmet food that was just plainly unavailable decades ago.

Their cabins are quiet and smoke free. Check-in and reservation changes are a snap, done from any smart phone with no drama by web or voice.

Premium service only flights like United coast to coast on A320s/319s are proliferating domestically and internationally.

I'm a huge fan of GA/BizAv, but the product that the airlines are offering, particularly for business/first class is awesome as well.

WhyTech said...

"that those 60s execs were routinely pressuring subordinates into sexual affairs, excluding blacks from employment, dumping at will on the environment, cutting back-room deal with politicians here and abroad with impunity, etc, etc, etc."

So what planet do you live on? All of this is still going on today, and more so in some cases.

airsafetyman said...

"just went BOS to LGB and return on Jet Blue in coach. Round trip for $400."

Would that be the Jet Blue that is being sued for divulging personal information of its passengers to a "security" contractor? Or would that be the Jet Blue that is being sued by a man who was forced to give up his seat to a stewardess and ride cross-country on the toilet seat when the stew complained to the "captain" that her fold down seat was just too darn hard?

Baron95 said...

ASM said ...Can't you just imagine some 300 pound TSA pervert leering at a photo scan of your wife or daughter?

Your wife and daughter do go to the beach or pool, right? What do you do? Personally kick the s$@# out of all the perverts before they come in?

WhyTech said...

"The service provided to business and first class today is orders of magnitude better than anything provided in the past."

Perhaps on international flights. Havent seen anything close lately on domestic flights.

WhyTech said...

"Would that be the Jet Blue that is being sued "

Probably is - yep, this happens almost every flight.

airsafetyman said...

"The service provided to business and first class today is orders of magnitude better than anything provided in the past."

What planet are you on?

bill e. goat said...

ATM,
I think you're statistics are true, but the reasoning is not- companies that are more profitable, can afford more perks. That's all there is to it. The perks don't make a company more profitable.

For jets, I'd say the actual productivity contribution varies inversely with their size. CEO's SHOULDN'T be running around the country. (That's what flunkies like me are for :) -and to do it in an airplane the size (and cost) of a jetliner? Please!

The fact is, most "business jets" contribute so little to the bottom line, that their acquisition is only "justified" by tax laws. If the tax laws for writeoffs / depreciation / deductions were changed, "biz" jet sales would fall off the edge of the earth- new sales for biz jets simply would evaporate, because they don't contribute that much to a company's bottom line.

And despite all the excitement about congress "vilifying" Detroit for BizJets, I think it was a television station that sprung the trap, and congress merely postured on camera in response.
ABC News article on Detroit CEO's

What congress DID, rather than posture about, was create incentives for business jet purchase.
Congress Approves GA Incentives
--------------------------------

And as far as CEO's making XXX $M per year, and their time being so valuable that a private jet is justified- I'd say Detroit would be a DARN sight better off, if they'd put those clowns on a DC-3, and send them around the world about 300 times per year, just to get their bumbling, incompetent asses out of the office. REALLY !!

WhyTech said...

"if they'd put those clowns on a DC-3, and send them around the world about 300 times "

Bravo!

bill e. goat said...

Baron,
I agree with you about airline service being improved.

Regarding the smoke free part.

My domestic experience is, everything else sucks compared to 10-15 years ago.

In particular, flights are crowded (seat pitch seems tighter, and the load factor is up, which further complicates matters. And the number of flights is down, so inevitable mx and wx problems result in HUGE delays, because there is no "next flight", and if there were, it's already completely booked.

And flying on a P.O.S. CRJ is horrible compared to, well, anything else 10-15 years ago, that I ever flew on anyway. (And it seems like the Podunk to Podunk trips I take, I'm always stuck on one of those damn things. I really WAS hoping the Eclipse airtaxi thing would succeed, just so I could avoid those rat traps.

(Refining my previous post, put those Detroit CEO's on a CRJ instead of a DC3- that's too good for 'em).

flyboymark said...

Dave,
Guns are only as safe as the individual handling them. If you are not an expert on this subject as I am, don't go there with this discussion.. Concealed carry is my choice and right and there have been several times for its need in the past with me and it has absolutely no bearing on safety issues unless your a moron playing with your loaded gun in the aircraft.

On the issues of corporate excesses with aircraft, many flight departments have two or more aircraft of different sizes and types they fly to suit the mission at hand. For the specific mission, excess fuel charges, ramp fees, wasted fuel, number of pilots required, number of passengers are all adjusted so that the company can remain fiscally responsible. This information comes to me from my brother who owns his own aviation insurance brokerage firm and PREDOMINENTLY works with corporate aircraft and FBO’s.

You only hear about the ones that create problems for all of the responsible public corporations. If the corporation is private, than who cares? It’s the owners own business and no one else’s.

Baron95 said...

"Amid this bad news, however, never forget that our country has faced far worse travails in the past. In the 20th Century alone, we dealt with two great wars (one of which we initially appeared to be losing); a dozen or so panics and recessions; virulent inflation that led to a 21.5 percent prime rate in 1980; and the Great Depression of the 1930s, when unemployment ranged between 15 percent and 25 percent for many years. America has had no shortage of challenges.

"Without fail, however, we've overcome them. In the face of those obstacles -- and many others -- the real standard of living for Americans improved nearly sevenfold during the 1900s, while the Dow Jones Industrials rose from 66 to 11,497. Compare the record of this period with the dozens of centuries during which humans secured only tiny gains, if any, in how they lived.

"Though the path has not been smooth, our economic system has worked extraordinarily well over time. It has unleashed human potential as no other system has, and it will continue to do so. America's best days lie ahead."


excerpt from Warren Buffett's annual letter to Berkshire Hathaway Inc. shareholders released Saturday morning.

WhyTech said...

"Concealed carry is my choice and right"

Have you considered counseling for your problem?

Baron95 said...

BEG. You are absolutely correct to point out one of the two things that were better in the "golden age" of aviation (generally defined as 58-78).

The first (you pointed out) is that load factors were much lower, because fares and schedules were regulated, so United cold send 2/3rd empty 747s cross country. Remember it was easy to manage back then ;)

The other is that, by and large, flight attendants were attractive, well educated, fit, energetic and excited about their jobs.

Everything else is better now. Much better.

2 weeks ago, I had to go on a last minute trip. I went on line, booked and printed my boarding pass, drove 54 miles, parked in a well appointed and secure parking lot, went through security, bought a gourmet meal from a shopping-mall type plaza at the airport, boarded and took off.

Elapsed time from decision to go to wheels up? 2:50 min.

Tried that in the 60s? How long did it take your "travel agent" (what is that again), to look in the fare/schedule book from 6 airlines, call their reservation systems, call you back with options, hand-write the freaking paper carbon copy ticket.

Thanks but no thanks. I prefer to do it myself, get the AA miles, etc. If I have to put up with the rare aging/overweight/depressed AA flight attendant and a full flight, so be it.

There is no going back.

Baron95 said...

More on how Shane's country messed up Warren Buffet...

"I made some other already-recognizable errors as well. They were smaller, but unfortunately not that small. During 2008, I spent $244 million for shares of two Irish banks that appeared cheap to me. At yearend we wrote these holdings down to market: $27 million, for an 89 percent loss. Since then, the two stocks have declined even further.

"The tennis crowd would call my mistakes 'unforced errors.'"

bill e. goat said...

Flyboymark,
I agree with everything you said about using a private airplane.
(Except the loaded gun part- I agree with Dave there- I hope air traffic control isn't THAT annoying).

In fact, I think we ALL agree about what a vastly superior experience it is (except Baron- and on international flights, I'd agree with him).

And as long as I as a tax payer I'm not subsidizing it, I'd say EVERY business traveler should be able to fly on a private jet if they want to.

(And, I think once the noise dies down, we all basically agree on that too).
---------------------------------

Baron, I agree with you about being able to "instantly" schedule a flight. But sitting in a 707 or DC9, compared to a CRJ (with built in headknocker / glovebox / overhead storage bin; and combination center isle/rat maze- NO WAY- heck, even the F-28's were an improvement.

And I consider the internet reservations an incorrectly attributed to airline service, and more an attribute to the telecommunication industry- but nice nonetheless. But if one does maintain the attribute, then the same reasoning thanks the airlines for TSA's charming service and expediency.

And try to change flights at the airport now, if you're 10 minutes late- used to be no problem, the ticket counter would switch you to their competitor's next flight out- now they won't even switch you to their OWN next flight out, without a hassle (AND usually, a substantial penalty, in my experience).

Dave said...

If you are not an expert on this subject as I am, don't go there with this discussion

I'm a gun owner of many years and of many weapons.

Concealed carry is my choice and right

I wasn't saying that you didn't have a right to do it.

there have been several times for its need in the past with me and it has absolutely no bearing on safety issues unless your a moron playing with your loaded gun in the aircraft.

I'm extremely curious under what scenarios you would need a loaded gun on your own private aircraft. I can think of reasons for loaded weapons to be on aircraft, just not private aircraft. The only thing that comes to mind would be if you were in a helicopter and doing hunting that way and everything else that I think of is for business/commercial use rather than private use. It just looks like too much risk for too little reward that it would be better off having the weapon be unloaded during flight.

Baron95 said...

BEG said... But sitting in a 707 or DC9, compared to a CRJ.

Errr... I'm I missing something?

You are comparing the largest transcon/intercon jet of one era with the commuter/feeder of another?

You need to compare the 707 experience with the 777-300ER and A380-800.

You need to compare the CRJ/E170 with the DC-3 or later with the Fokker F27 or BAC One-Eleven.

Again - other than load factors and more attractive flight attendants airline transport today is miles ahead of what it was in the 58-78 so called golden-age era.

Not the least of which is that you were 6 times more likely to die for each airline take-off than you are today.

And airports were like bus terminals. Today they are like high-end shopping centers with gourmet food and brand-name stores.

bill e. goat said...

Baron,
I agree with Warren (and you, I presume)- we don't feel as pessimistic as most, it seems. (Mr. Goat's humble predictions- we've almost bottomed out- maybe another 5-10% decline (already down 25% from my perspective) by mid-summer, then back to where we are now by the end of the year- and continued modest recovery in 2010 and on.

(I don't think we'll get to "where we were at the start of 2008", for a while- because we were never there in the first place- it was all hype and speculation).
---------------------------------

Shane,
Please apologize to Warren, and send him a quarter $B or so.

Or maybe some Eclipse stock options.

(And a pint or two of Guinness...Do you guys dye it green for St. Patrick's Day?? Or maybe that's just a crass American construct? :)

Baron95 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Baron95 said...

And if you have ANY doubts that commercial aviation is better today, all you have to do is look at The Latest Innovations from RyanAir.

Dave said...

I don't think we'll get to "where we were at the start of 2008", for a while- because we were never there in the first place- it was all hype and speculation

I guess I'm on the real pessimistic side while also agreeing with you that the economy will improve, but I think it will improve for the wrong reasons. I think hype and speculation have driven the market for ages and I don't see any serious structural reform of the financial systems - just band-aids being used to restart the same broken system that can lead to a repeat of the same problems all over again. I see a huge problem with securitization, but that's going to be restarted and I see that as throwing good money after bad. I also don't see there being any action to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Instead it just looks like we are inviting an overinflated economy based on institutions being too big to fail charging up the economy by extending too much credit and putting out risky financial instruments. It's a great scam for politicians (they get to take credit for improving the economy) and financial execs (they get to take home a bigger paycheck), but the more it pumps up the economy, the bigger the bubble it is waiting to pop. How financial/investment institutions operate now is significantly different than how they operated a few decades ago and there's no reason why they can't go back to operating in more financial sound and stable ways.

Baron95 said...

Dave said ... I'm extremely curious under what scenarios you would need a loaded gun on your own private aircraft. I can think of reasons for loaded weapons to be on aircraft, just not private aircraft. The only thing that comes to mind would be if you were in a helicopter and doing hunting

Not trying to get in the middle of you two, but a couple of observations:

- Hunting from an aircraft is illegal in the US and many other countries. Even using aircraft to spot pray for hunters on the ground is illegal.

- IIRC, The Canadian air regulations require all GA pilots flying on the Northern territories to carry a weapon and ammunition. Idea, I think, is for them to be able to hunt if a plane goes down up north.

- Concealed handguns are carried routinely on commercial flights by federal air marshals and other LEOs. Lockboxed (aka dumb-boxed) firearms are also carried by thousands of pilots every day into the cockpit. So far, their only use in the US has been the shooting of an unarmed, mentally handicapped individual that ran AWAY from an airplane. Not counting here the incidents where Federal Air Marshals left loaded weapons on the toilet that were found by passengers.

The number one reason to carry a concealed weapon aboard a private plane, it the same reason to carry it aboard a private car or to have it on a private residence. To use it for the rare and unexpected situation where only a firearm will save your live or that of a loved one.

In aviation, I'm sure, for example, the Fedex flight crew that was savagely attacked by another disgruntled Fedex employee wished they had a concealed firearm handy.

Similarly, the half a dozen or so unlucky pilots who had their planes taken at gun point in Mexico, the Caribbean and elsewhere, might also think the same.

A concealed firearm has a "calming" and reassuring benefit of just being there, just in case.

Either way, tell me again, why the heck are we talking about firearms on private planes?

bill e. goat said...

Baron,
I think maybe we're talking about two different things- 10-15 years ago for me (yikes- I'm really thinking of the 1980's through 2000 or so- guess that was 10-30 years ago !!), but not any past that.

I really don't know much about "the golden age" of 1958-1978- if things are better now, they must have REALLY sucked back then !! :)

But not to let the facts interfere with me listening to myself pontificate:
--------------------------------
"BEG said... But sitting in a 707 or DC9, compared to a CRJ. Errr... I'm I missing something? You are comparing the largest transcon/intercon jet of one era with the commuter/feeder of another?"

YUP- my flights used to be non-stop 707 (and really, a lot of 737's- same fuselage tube as the 707), now they're hub-to-hub on a crappy CRJs.

"You need to compare the 707 experience with the 777-300ER and A380-800."

As soon as there is A380 service between Tucson and Spokane, I'll let you know how that turns out.

"You need to compare the CRJ/E170 with the DC-3 or later with the Fokker F27 or BAC One-Eleven."

DC-3's were not in service 10-15 (well -30) years ago. And I WOULD pick a F27 or BAC 111 over a CRJ. EVERY DAY.

(And notice I didn't mention the ERJ. I find the ERJ-170 vastly superior to CRJ's- maybe CRJ should stand for Crappy RJ's. But where I go, I'm about 20 times more likely to wind up on a CRJ than and ERJ. The ERJ-145 is about as crappy as a CRJ though).

"Again - other than load factors and more attractive flight attendants airline transport today is miles ahead of what it was in the 58-78 so called golden-age era."

Yeah, I'll grant the chicks were hotter then. And they were chicks. And we could call them chicks. Sometimes anyway.

"Not the least of which is that you were 6 times more likely to die for each airline take-off than you are today."

Yes, I'll grant it's safer- much safer now. But, to attribute that to airlines is wrong- it's the airframe manufacturers to thank. But, if one wants to attribute things to the airlines, I'd like to thank them for the many times I've sat on an airline at the gate for hours on end lately- that NEVER used to happen.

"And airports were like bus terminals. Today they are like high-end shopping centers with gourmet food and brand-name stores."

True, they were more bus terminal like then. But you could park right by the terminal. And you could go in and watch airplanes. And friends could meet you at the gate.

You're right, we can't go backwards. But I dang sure wish we could go forward, into an era of better domestic airline service to remote areas. Or fly in Eclipse AirTaxi's. Or Moller flying cars.

And personally, I'd rank the probabilities as:

1) Moller fly cars
2) Eclipse Air Taxis
3) Improved regional airline service.

Dave said...

IIRC, The Canadian air regulations require all GA pilots flying on the Northern territories to carry a weapon and ammunition. Idea, I think, is for them to be able to hunt if a plane goes down up north.

Which make sense to me - provided that the weapon is unloaded.

Concealed handguns are carried routinely on commercial flights by federal air marshals and other LEOs. Lockboxed (aka dumb-boxed) firearms are also carried by thousands of pilots every day into the cockpit.

Yes, neither are private use.

In aviation, I'm sure, for example, the Fedex flight crew that was savagely attacked by another disgruntled Fedex employee wished they had a concealed firearm handy.

That's commercial/business use.

The number one reason to carry a concealed weapon aboard a private plane, it the same reason to carry it aboard a private car or to have it on a private residence. To use it for the rare and unexpected situation where only a firearm will save your live or that of a loved one.

And I'm just not thinking of any of those situations when you're in flight. Being miles up your about the safest place you could possibly be as far as threats from other people are concerned. Somebody could take potshots at you from the ground or fire lasers into the cockpit to blind you, but having a weapon wouldn't help you then. Another plane could be about to crash into you, but having a weapon wouldn't help get you out of that situation.

bill e. goat said...

Baron,

"In aviation, I'm sure, for example, the Fedex flight crew that was savagely attacked by another disgruntled Fedex employee wished they had a concealed firearm handy."

I think they also were thankful their attacker DIDN'T have a concealed firearm handy.

"A concealed firearm has a "calming" and reassuring benefit of just being there, just in case."

Unless a nut pulls it out. Then it's not a very calming experience. Speaking from experience.

"Either way, tell me again, why the heck are we talking about firearms on private planes?"

SHOCK- WE AGREE !!

(I must be mistaken in some regard !! :)
--------------------------------
Dave,
"And I'm just not thinking of any of those situations when you're in flight. Being miles up your about the safest place you could possibly be as far as threats from other people are concerned."

I AGREE AGAIN.
...I must really take something for this problem...
.)

bill e. goat said...

Dave,
Not to be more agreeable on purpose, but...

"I see a huge problem with securitization, but that's going to be restarted and I see that as throwing good money after bad. I also don't see there being any action to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act."

I wouldn't have a problem with securitization, if it is well regulated. But it has not been- whether it will in the future, TBD.

(ref: "The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLBA) allowed commercial and investment banks to consolidate")
Gramm-Leach-Billey Act

I think consolidation is THE WORST problem in corporate America- it has killed competition, and fostered incompetence and mismanagement. Everyone has suffered- including the stockholder's who were the only ones who benefited from it at anytime, however briefly.

Pondering a reply to Turboprop_Pilot's earlier post, I have come to embrace the term "corporatism", which usefully describes my sentiments in this context as well:

"At a popular level in recent years "corporatism" has been used to mean the promotion of the interests of private corporations in government over the interests of the public."
Corporatism

Baron95 said...

BEG said... Unless a nut pulls it out. Then it's not a very calming experience. Speaking from experience.

Exactly. But then it is no longer concealed is it? LOL

BTW, I was obviously saying that it has a calming effect to the one that is carrying the concealed weapon.

But, unfortunately, in today's world, it seems to drive everyone crazy, that someone is carrying something that they are not. Therefore we ban everything.

Oh no. One person is incapable of driving a car faster than 55MPH, so now no one can drive faster than that.

One person cooks up nose medications into drugs and now no one can buy decongestants to their kids without waiting in line for a pharmacist, showing a drivers license, etc.

Natural de-selection is no longer working in America.

We don't even let insurance companies fail anymore.

Tomorrow, AIG will announce a $62,000,000,000 loss and the US govmt will OFFER another $30,000,000,000 to keep it alive.

My god.

x said...

Craft status
21 craft flew to Europe and beyond.
25 craft are unknown because of blockage or unknown registration number.
28 craft are DayJet tails and are not tracked.
19 craft last reported destination was KABQ. 4 craft are North American Jet Charter, 3 are Linear Air and are tracked as flight number.
160 remaining craft are/were unblocked in North America. They are not concentrated at any location. Last reported destination for more than 1 individual craft are:
KMYF 4
KHDC 4
KSDL 3
KLOM 3
KIWA 3
KCOS 3
KCNO 3
MMAN 2
KVNY 2
KVNC 2
KVGT 2
KTYS 2
KAPF 2
KSUS 2
KBCT 2
KSGU 2
KSAT 2
KPWK 2
KBKV 2
KLAA 2
KIWS 2
KHWD 2
KGRB 2
KGNV 2
KFFZ 2
KCRQ 2

Of the cohort that is monitored on Flight Aware (160-183 total)

13 craft last flew on March 1st
94 craft flew sometime in February
27 last flew in January
8 last flew in December
13 in November
14 in October
7 in September
(data may be complicated by changes in registration number).

Baron95 said...

Hey Dave,

Many years ago, I used to fly the New York City VFR transitions into NJ and back. At places, you had to fly between 1,000 and 1,500 ft over the Bronx or yonkers, etc.

We were always ready in the cockpit to "return fire" so to speak.

Just in case ya know ;)

Of course, Giuliani cleaned it all up, so now they just shoot us with low powered lasers. We just don sun glasses at night just in case.

Baron95 said...

Ouch.
This pilot totally lost it flying a turboprop in icing near buffalo - really scary. I've heard a lot of emergencies, including a ditching on the frequency, but I have never seen a pilot lose it (their cool) so completely.

My god. And she rumbles on an on. And she chooses to continue flying after possibly overstressing the plane.

Baron95 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
gadfly said...

Watching the weekend activity (on our favorite blog-site) is interesting but not terribly enlightening. Finances, technology, FAA intrigue . . . all of that does, indeed,
“purchase interest” . . . but with Eclipse we have a “microcosm” of our national problem . . . often overlooked. It’s not about finances nor even about “who has the best idea” . . . it’s all about “control”.

If you miss this, you’ve missed the national problem, as well as the silly little “spat” over the “Very Light Jet”. At each level, certain people are after “control” . . . “Vern” (and his replacement, the Dutch guy), “Mayor Chavez”, “Governor Bill”, and what’s his name, living in the “White House”.

Keep that right up in front . . . make a “tag”, if necessary, and every time you go to make a comment, put “Control” into your mind . . . and also, that other little word that expresses man’s problems since Adam, “Pride”. (It’s a “word” that folks have attempted of late to make “honorable”, but it still remains at the foundation of man’s problems . . . ‘need I preach a sermon?)

And if that doesn’t work, hit the “icon” on your computer for “My Music”, find “Frank Sinatra”, . . . go down the list and play, once again, “I Did It My Way”.

Some of us have attempted to keep the conversation directed toward the “technical aspects” of the little bird . . . but the conversation always drifts back to the “finance”, “control”, “pride in ownership” . . . etc., etc., ad nauseum.

And, in the end, it will go out with a “whimper”, rather than a “bang”. (‘Hopefully, “on the ground”, and not at altitude.)

The news on a local TV channel, just now, quoting Vern, stated something about the company going out of business because of being “overly ambitious”. What a farce . . . coming from a man who openly lied to his own customers . . . claiming “success”, stealing them blind (from the escrow account), and then suffering the exposure of the lie . . . the amazing thing being that almost no-one was willing to believe the obvious . . . and none of the media had the “guts” to report the obvious . . . or maybe (probably) they were too stupid to understand the obvious.

But now, “carry on” . . . discuss how the “gullible” can somehow make a brick (continue to) fly . . . and at this point, I actually have sympathy for folks like “Ken”, having bought the lie, are now frantically attempting to recover their miss-placed trust.

Because of “pride”, and an attempt at “control”, humans will do extraordinary things . . . and so the death throws may continue for some time into the future. But no matter what heroic efforts . . . the patient will finally cease breathing . . . the heart will stop beating . . . and a monument may be raised in honor of the departed.

gadfly

(What a breath of fresh air . . . someone earlier speaking of flying over the countryside in a little “tail dragger”, . . . the pleasures of simply “flying”, with a Continental 65 hp dragging a “J3" over the countryside, . . . a “cork and wire” keeping watch over how much time left . . . an “eyeball peeled” for a golf course, or a plowed field below, lined up with the wind, “just in case” . . . and the knowledge that soon the pilot would have to join all those earth-bound critters . . . and return to average life. All the jets in the world don’t return that early pleasure of walking on the wings of the wind.)

flyboymark said...

WT,
The only problem I have is with people who try demonize me with their liberal/socialist views. I respond sir that you need counseling for your out of order derogatory comments about my and YOUR constitutional rights towards me.

I have a little saying:

Before you judge others by your level of intellect and skill... consider theirs just might be better than yours.

Its like the first amendment rite here WT, you don't hear me criticizing you about YOUR mental health for your opinions do you?

And Dave,
When you step off the your aircraft you don't want to be publicly loading and racking your gun. It is CONCEALED weather it be on you or in a bag. And most ALL states have laws about public display of firearms in inappropriate places if your carrying a concealed weapon. Carrying a weapon has no bearing on a calming effect with me, it is simply viewed as a tool. If you have some sort of emotional dependence on a carried weapon, then you need to re-evaluate just why you carry one.

Anti gun individuals tend to use emotional transference of their “feelings” that others “might” act in an unstable manor as they see themselves would. There is extensive psychological studies on this issue.

Dave said...

The news on a local TV channel, just now, quoting Vern

Vern is quite a comedian. It seems like whatever he says about others apply to him. Like just recently he accused suppliers of fraud.

gadfly said...

The man was a tough little Swede . . . he was born in a different century, a few miles south of the Arctic Circle. He came over on a combination power and sailing ship, . . . through Ellis Island . . . and in the process changed his name from the “Swedish”, to a simple five letter American version, working hard in Chicago, helping to build the city. And he would “almost” be my father-in-law, had he lived another three or four months. My last memories of this man . . . sitting at a table, an “inhalator” in one hand, a cigarette in the other . . . concerned that his oldest daughter was about to marry some “farmer” and “pilot”, and go off to a foreign land as a missionary pilot . . . the pilot part wasn’t the problem.

That summer, I was working at the airport . . . mowing 82 acres (four runways) of turf runway, every two weeks . . . hence the “farmer” part.

The day of his funeral, I had to fulfill my “flying” requirements . . . so, I fired up a “J3" (I don’t remember why I didn’t take one of the Cessnas or the others that morning), took off, due west . . . keeping below the tops of the WGN tower to my right, and WBBM to my left. I had to put in an hour . . . a little to the north I found an intersection below, and decided to fill the hour with “slow flight and stalls”. There was a strong 50 or 60 knot wind from the north . . . the September air was cold and crisp, a perfect day for flying . . . but on that day in 1962, I didn’t really enjoy the flight. Folks below must have thought I was a “kite”, stationary over a single intersection for most of an hour . . . enough for my “log book”. My watch indicated my “hour” was up . . . I banked left, went south over Roselle . . . then headed east over Wood Dale, south of WBBM tower, dropping down to 300 feet off the ground, keeping a constant watch for traffic coming into “ORD”, ‘just two mile directly east of Moody Airport . . . turned left onto final, set it down, taxied back to the “Tee” hangar, put it away . . . and drove into Chicago . . . “Little Sweden”, not far from the “Cubs” field, for the funeral.

Somehow, the flight that day, the funeral, my “soon-to-be” marriage to this little Swedish girl in December . . . it all comes together. Almost fifty years later, it’s a wonderful memory . . . mixed with sadness . . . and a reminder of folks that “know the truth”, yet reject it.

gadfly

(Some of us can remember the true fun of flying . . . it’s still there. ‘Hopefully, you won’t miss it. If you want to get there fast . . . take an airline. You want to fly? . . . there’s not many things to compare with a little “linen covered” tail dragger, with just enough power and fuel to get you “there” and back . . . at under 70 mph.)

FreedomsJamtarts said...

At least we now know were Ecorpse former director of Marketecture is now working.

bill e. goat said...

WhyTech,
I think your point is well made !!
.)

WhyTech said...

"Its like the first amendment rite here WT, you don't hear me criticizing you about YOUR mental health for your opinions do you?"

Free speech rarely kills. Gun are for one purpose - killing. There is an element of our society that maintains a wild west mindset almost two centuries after the fact. We live in a nation that values rule by law, not by force. Unless you live in certain third world countries, or are involved in a fringe occupation such as private security, you have no need to carry a gun. Hang em up, pardner!

bill e. goat said...

WT,
Well said. (Since there are probably relatively few of us with that opinion here, I thought I'd better make that put before we get swamped!!
:)

But I encourage us "not to go there" as much as I enjoy the inputs of our fellow bloggers on almost everything else.

But, I've learned it's futile (and perhaps, presumptuous) to claim "the last word", so...I'm "hanging it up" on this topic .)

Gadfly, I think many will second (?amendment? :) your motion to: "Carry On"
:)

WhyTech said...

"so...I'm "hanging it up" on this topic .)"

Right approach - so am I.

Black Tulip said...

Whytech said,

“During my days as a CEO, I traveled in coach on the airlines to set an example.”

In my eighteen years as a public company CEO I lived by the same rules. How could you fly up front in an airliner with the rest of your team in the back, and then talk convincingly about controlling costs later in the conference room? There was a period in which the U.S. automotive business was important to us and we all drove American cars. (Too bad it didn’t help.)

There were exceptions. If you needed to cross the Pacific to Asia and be fresh on arrival, you got to ride business class. The parent company had so many airline chits that the upgrade cost little or was ‘free’. The parent company also had a small share in an older general aviation aircraft, upgraded over the years from a Piper Aztec to Beech F90 King Air to Learjet 35A. Having paid myself to get type rated in the latter I enjoyed riding in the front a couple of times and running the radios.

Business aircraft use was miniscule compared to the airlines and only employed when it made sense. And there was no ‘big iron’. I flew some trips in aircraft I either owned or leased… Baron, Commander or Citation. But I only charged the company the equivalent of coach airfare and absorbed the rest personally.

Okay, okay there were a couple of excesses. Lehman Brothers (remember them) thought I should ride to and from Europe on the Concorde. We were raising money in a public offering and had a tight road show schedule. I sat in the jump seat behind the crew on both legs and marveled at the sights, sounds and heat soaking through to the cockpit. Saw the sun set and then rise again. The altimeter peaked at 58,300 feet before we started down to New York Kennedy. The deep violet color of the sky stays with me.

Adam Hunt said...

For anyone who hasn't seen the latest on the Friedman bid on Avweb:

New Eclipse Lining Up Support By Glenn Pew

and a podcast interview with Friedman:

Can Eclipse Be Saved? Russ Niles talks to Phil Friedman

airtaximan said...

ATM,
I think you're statistics are true, but the reasoning is not- companies that are more profitable, can afford more perks. That's all there is to it. The perks don't make a company more profitable.

NOPE, and Whytech is correct, there's a "study" to defend any position, really... BUT,

Look at Walmart. They have their own corporate fleet - they are the low cost provider. They fly "anyone within the org that has a reason to fly private"...

This is a worldclass company (I know many people hate them, and I reserve judgement), they compete on low cost AND they operate a FLEET (I think its 40 jets) out of their own corp flight dept.

This is one example. Is it wasteful? NOT AACORDING TO ONE OF THE LEAST WASTEFUL COMPANIES ON EARTH.

PS. Sam and his brother used a Mooney (IIRC) to fly from potential site to site, view the terrain, get a feel for the surrounding s and location, roads, pop density, etc... this is a great use of GA.

Are there excesses? Sure, as with everything. Is their hypocracy, sure, as with a lot of things. GA/private jets are IMO a very positive force for busines, AND a huge net gain for the US economy. Probably one of our most competitive manufacturing industries globally.

WhyTech said...

"ride to and from Europe on the Concorde. "

I envy your Concorde trips. I intended to pay my own way on the Concorde for many years just for the experience. I waited too long.

WhyTech said...

"they operate a FLEET (I think its 40 jets) out of their own corp flight dept."

If your corporate headquarters were in Bentonville, AR, you would need a fleet! :-)

WhyTech said...

"And she chooses to continue flying after possibly overstressing the plane."

Its easy to second guess from the comfort of an armchair, but, yes, I would have to question her ADM skills. I'd make some comment about women not being suited to fly airplanes, but I know that I would not survive more than 2 seconds after making such a politically incorrect statement, so I wont make it.

fred said...

oh guys ...

this arguments over flying private or not is a bit weird to me ...

no one is right or wrong on the matter ...

as someone who control often costs and management (even if not in private firms 99% of time) the matter about private vs commercial is like the tree which hide the forest ...

what is needed is ADULT thinking (what was precisely missing in EAC) in choosing where , what and why !

if you are a really CEO of a firm that cannot spare you a few hours , then it is obvious that you should "squeeze" as much as can be from your planning , if it means taking a private , off-course , do it !

where it starts to be "less required " : when it is a social-status-case ...
i can tell you that only once i had to fly someone in a private , only because it was making sens , to discover that the guy in question took that as me giving him an over-inflated value ...

he was bit surprised to hear" you don't pay , so you shut-up or you take train !"

contrary as what most think , there is a rule : "the larger the corporation , the lesser need for a competent CEO "

Bear-stern CEO was spending something like 43% of his time playing Golf ...
(ok , some will argue you can talk business while on the green ...)

that is exactly what has been wrong in the system :
the CEO are having advantages because they are "supposed to understand and bear responsibilities " for whatever is done under their leadership ...

very often they do not want to even apologize when things are messed-up ...

but they can pay whatever , whoever is under their authority to take the greatest possible risks , with the only condition that it doesn't fail ...

so very soon , the game is more about Ego and the size and brand of Jet you are flying , than anything else ...!

sad but that the way , we ended-up all in this mess ...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Well, the anti-business, anti-gun, anti-thought stuff could cause me to run on for hours but there are actually important developments re: the preemie jet, the erstwhile subject of our humble blog.

Friedman and Reed are replaying the Eclipse 1.0 business plan in front of God and everybody: giving interviews, making bold statements and monopolizing the press to create the appearance of something more than exists.

Anyone else experiencing deja vu?

Are you paying attention Owners?

Sanada is off trying to butter his own bread with the DayJet planes.

The FAA issued what I think will be the first of several SAIB's effectively ham-stringing the NfG planes.

Make no mistake, the Eclipse saga is about to enter the terminal phase depending on what happens with the assets.

fred said...

I know that I would not survive more than 2 seconds after making such a politically incorrect statement,

but YOU did IT !!

ok , you're dead ! ;-)

(it's your opinion , it's fine ! there is much more to fear when peoples starts NOT to have the wrong opinions because it's politically correct or incorrect ...)

fred said...

oh , yes ...wet-fish !

just the good old saga about fluff !!

consternating and pathetic !

airtaximan said...

Northwest Arkansas Regional Airport

is 18 miles away, and has service to almost all major us market

this is typical of most headquarters, in fact, it probably more convenient than many compay head quarters and or their desitnation facilities.

GA/Private Jets are an easy target - on NPR this AM, there was a nice expose on the problems casued by demonizing GA... Pelton did a nice job, as did some others.

Again, excess exists, but we need to promote GA as the travel tool/alternative that it is.

fred said...

ATM

yes , promote it for what it is :

A TOOL !

nothing about waste or social status ...

airtaximan said...

CW,

I like to stop, drop and roll... then, look and find the "funny stuff" going on...

IIRC, Mr. Reed LEFT ECLIPSE BECASUE HE WA TIRED AND WAS GOING TO SPEND MORE QUALITY TIME WITH THIS FAMILY.

(OK, I know this is code...) but for exactly WHAT?)

NOW, HE'S BACK WORKING TO MAKE A GO OF EAC, AGAIN? This will be more, not less work than before. He's going to have to raise it from the ashes.

So, I ask all you whytechs, mackerles, and Goats, the Daves and the Tulips, and the others...

If Reed is now enthusiastic about the prospects of EAC, why did he leave?

If its the same'ol plan, why did he bail?

I remind, this departure left EAC with a gaping hole. No CFO, a major player, gone... disruption and at a time that was not eay for the company...

Any thougts on why he left and now he's back?

Dave said...

Friedman and Reed are replaying the Eclipse 1.0 business plan in front of God and everybody: giving interviews, making bold statements and monopolizing the press to create the appearance of something more than exists.
Anyone else experiencing deja vu?


With these guys and the others I think it comes down to being able to show the money. Friedman can say whatever he wants, but if he doesn't have the money for it, it's a non-starter.

Make no mistake, the Eclipse saga is about to enter the terminal phase depending on what happens with the assets.

Yes and no. If you mean the aircraft being grounded yes, but if you mean what happens to those involved, this could go on for a long time. Eclipse matters could be tied up for a long time and the execs could go on to further craziness. Afterall what brought me here was an extension of following SCO by way of Iacobucci. I expect there will be many interesting things to come even if the aircraft are permanently grounded...heck, maybe especially if the aircraft are permanently grounded. Look at Vern - he's still Vern with all his ranting and personality disorders and as such I don't think he'll just ride off into the sunset and instead will create drama wherever he goes.

fred said...

why is he coming back ?

A: as long as the smell of money would be around , with the potential of squeezing some gullible victims , there will be attempt like this one ...

the only thing RiP need = Chap.7 reaching the 28M$ target ...! then he will the last one to laugh ...

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

ATM, Reed's departure was announced and effective within the same week as I recall, leaving them as you say with no CFO for quite some time - a critical time in the history of EAC.

I suspect Reed was the first to identify the original biz plan was DOA (debts accumulating too fast, plane incomplete) and realized he was not going to make big bank at an IPO (the original exit plan), probably said as much, and was 'asked' to leave for being a 'non-team-player'.

Why try again? Dreams of IPO, bruised ego, could be anything but my gut says dreams of IPO part deux - get to the IPO point faster and cash out, within 2 years.

And it will fail.

I suspect that Friedman and Reed are rapidly approaching political 'critical mass'. The appearance of credibility will strip away owners from the E5C plan, as will the Sadana DayJet plan, and we will be in this same conversation perhaps by the end of the year, 18 months from now tops.

The opportunity for the owners group is rapidly diminishing IMO, and they had the only real shot at making anything work.

WhyTech said...

"why did he bail?"

Maybe Vern held a gun to his head! Heh, heh, heh.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Dave, even if he has the money to buy the assets, which I think they very likely do ($15-30M depending on whether there is a bidding war), the money needed to 'finish' the design, 'optimize' it for production, and restart the line is an east $200M on top of that.

Where will that money come from?

There are 3 obvious potential sources, Friedman and Reed themselves, investors, or confiscatory prices on support for the fielded aircraft.

Hmmmmm, wonder how that will go?

Dave said...

I remind, this departure left EAC with a gaping hole. No CFO, a major player, gone... disruption and at a time that was not eay for the company...
Any thougts on why he left and now he's back?


I don't know why he left, but as I've said before, I don't trust that guy. I think this guy was involved in the flight test scam and as such he can and would scam again.

Here's another reason to be wary of Reed:
As CFO and Senior VP Finance and Administration, Peter led the financing efforts which raised in excess of $600 million of capital and grew the company to 1,000+ employees. Peter also led the development of the information technology, human resource, contracts, and financial infrastructure of the company. As the officer responsible for legal affairs, he directed the strategies which resulted in successful outcomes in several disputes with suppliers and customers.
This guy is neckdeep in having built the Eclipse 1.0 infrastructure and we all see how that turned out.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Great point Dave, Reed is taking credit for building the contracts and vendor management approach that resulted in foundational suppliers like Williams, BAe Systems, Avidyne being tossed under the bus, resulting in YEARS and $100's of millions in delays.

His part with legal would also include him in the suit to unmask the bloggers as I think he left AFTER the suit started.

A real peach there.

Black Tulip said...

CWM,

Listened to the AVweb interview with Friedman. The part I liked best was hearing about the attractive market for a twin jet with a small cabin burning little fuel and selling for a base price of $2.4 million. Wonder how long this body will twitch before it goes cold.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

BT,

I think that the EA-500 could have been the equivalent of the Mooney M-20 compared to the Beech Bonanza or Cessna 210. Smaller plane, smaller engines and fuel flow, good cruise performance.

Read that 'could' have been, like Marlon Brando in On the Waterfront.

EAC failed in the execution, and there are now 260 soon to be orphaned jets, in varying stages of incompletion.

Now, one of the self-identified prime architects of that failed execution is involved in the most public attempt to resurrect the preemie jet, not for support, but to ultimately restart the line after 'improving producibility' - seems to me EAC tried that, several times, while Reed was still there and after.

Maybe there is no producibility to be found with that design.

We are seeing the same dance from 10 years and $3B dollars ago, even with at least one of the key players - and some it seems are taking it seriously without recognizing the eery similarity to the introduction of the biz and the plane.

It's over, nobody listens to disco.

WhyTech said...

"the EA-500 could have been the equivalent of the Mooney M-20 "

Turned out more like the M22

airsafetyman said...

"It's over, nobody listens to disco."

Stayin' alive, stayin' alive..ah,ah,ah,ah, stayin aliiiivee

(With apologies to the BeeGees)

Dave said...

Listened to the AVweb interview with Friedman. The part I liked best was hearing about the attractive market for a twin jet with a small cabin burning little fuel and selling for a base price of $2.4 million. Wonder how long this body will twitch before it goes cold.

Which may be true, but I've seem this same mistake (or done intentionally) saying the market is such-and-such size for "a" thing (I'm thinking DayJet) instead of "the" thing. The market already has the Mustang and also just because someone is open to the idea in theory, it doesn't mean they like the specific item being offered. Eclipse has a bad reputation on many fronts, so even if there is a market for 100 twin engine jets at $2.4M, it doesn't therefore mean that there is a market for 100 Eclipse 500s at $2.4M as you go from the general to the particular. This is basically DayJet and Vern speak. I wonder how long until the media starts asking questions about Reed...probably once it is too late.

airtaximan said...

why so hard on disco?

Disco actually made a lot of money for a lot of people, and brought a lot of people safe enjoyment!

Can't wait to hear the comeback on this one.

airtaximan said...

I can feel a Karen DiPiazza interview with Reed coming, if he'll agree... which he won't.

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

ATM I was going to quote Eminem and say 'it's over, nobody listens to techno' but figgered it would be lost on some.

Enjoy your Bee Gee's. ;^)

TBMs_R_Us said...

Dave,

I agree with what you're saying. If had a fresh $2.4M to spend on a twin jet, I might very well have $3.1M. In which case wouldn't I buy a Phenom or a Mustang? This argument about fuel economy is ridiculous. It's like Baron saying he's going to own this honking powerful Mercedes and then he's supposed to worry about gas mileage?

So the market might be limited to only that subset of potential buyers who can afford $2.4M but not $3M, and at the same time are able to overcome all of the brain damage and brand damage that's been done in the name of Eclipse. I think they underestimate how bad a reputation there is now in the potential customer base, and they totally misread how that base has several good alternative choices.

Turboprop_pilot said...

I'd cut them a little slack.

The CFO worked for a crook who set the standards for the whole company- he may have learned.

friedman is a manufacturing guy from the industry- that is a wholesome change from wedge, roel and their computer industry experience.

They are actually TALKING to the stakeholders- another big change.

The stakeholders will be much more demanding

BUT, has he got a big enough fortune to make it into a small one in our favorite industry?

and still no market research- one lesson never learned
Turboprop_pilot

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Spot on about Reed. If they are true to the Eclipse 1.0 biz plan Friedman will be the 'new' technical evangelist, asnd the only public face of the company.

Reed is there to lend a sense of credibility overcome Harlow's size and experience (he's been there and done that, nevermind his complicity in designing the infrastructure and decision making that flopped to the tune of $3B) and maybe open up some magic checkbooks.

History is truly repeating itself.

WhyTech said...

Ken is on the move! THis just in from FlightAware:

Your tracked aircraft N85SM has just filed a flight plan. It is scheduled to depart E25 (Wickenburg Muni) at 12:10PM MST heading for KMCC (Mc Clellan Airfield) for an arrival at 01:01PM PST.

Expected route: PKE PMD EHF

airtaximan said...

"The CFO worked for a crook who set the standards for the whole company- he may have learned."

I always thought that's why he left, personally.

julius said...

David,

I wanted to check, when Mr. Reed left EAC - but now EAC's press release history is "optimized"!!!

Mr. Friedman's words are really open-hearted:
- The fpj is a mini bird (and thus real economic if used for one pax who is also the pilot)
- The fpj can be used for "third class" employees!
- The fpj is a niche product!
- Investors are welcome (or a no go item?)!
- There is no real budget.

A propritary up to date avionic suite based on AVIONG 1.5 is too expensive and with the Garmin 400s impossible resp. a dead end!
Perhaps the fpj owners want to pay twice to get a modern avionic suite!

Let's see what Reed & Friedman will say when they have learnt the real value of EAC's assets...
RP put some salt into the soup...

Julius

FreedomsJamtarts said...

From the Avweb podcast, at minute three he states that the revenue flow from maintaining the fleet will pay for the product development engineering to improve reliability (specifically avionics), the continued airworthiness engineering (implied not stated), and the production engineering.

Lets shine some sunshine on that statement.

To the layman (pilot/owner) this sounds like the guys in engineering, who are doing stuff for my plane, which two out of three are, but they will actually be separate groups competing for resources, with the output of the production engineering group being near worthless to the current owners who finance them.

Ken takes his serviceable, very reliable jet in for a routine 100 hour service plus DB, and new tires. How much is this going to cost if he paying for all this production engineering work. Haven't we already seen a model whereby the current owners/depositors get fleeced to build someone Else's plane.

Kind of funny that he states that the production engineering was never done. Sounds like the sort of statement the faithful used to get their undies in a twist about when the critics said it two years ago.

airtaximan said...

FJT,

"designed for high rate production"
VR BS circa 1999-2006

"designed for airline type durability"
VR BS circa 1999-2006

Dave said...

I always thought that's why he left, personally.

And he may not have learned. Alternatively he might have learned, but simply not have the abilities needed. Just looking at the business plan shows that there are going to be serious issues that could result in the existing owners getting shafted either intentionally or due to poor planning. As has been pointed out by FJ, there's a serious matter of competing for resources between the existing owners and the company trying to restart production. It sounds very much like Eclipse 1.0 - and that shouldn't be surprising given the former Eclipse CFO's involvement in both. I believe the existing owners will get shafted as the greater interest appears to be in restarting the production line rather than in maintaining the fleet - still chasing a big payday rather than grinding out a specialty business.

airtaximan said...

Aviation International News February 2007 By Harry Weisberger

CFO Leaves Eclipse

Eclipse Aviation CFO Peter Reed retired after more than seven years helping bring the Eclipse 500 through FAA certification. According to a customer letter from Eclipse Aviation president and CEO Vern Raburn sent on Dec. 19, 2006, “Peter will turn 62 next year and wants to transition from the hectic 80-plus-hour work week that he has done for 35+ years to a lifestyle where he can afford the time to travel with his wife.” The letter went on to explain, “I must emphasize that this is in no way whatsoever related to the health of Eclipse Aviation.” Eclipse Aviation’s second employee, Reed participated in the growth of the company to its current size of more than 1,000 employees, Raburn wrote.

I guess seeing the world with your wife, gets old fast... and at 65 years old, he's ready for another "start up", in aviation of all things.

Dave said...

I guess seeing the world with your wife, gets old fast... and at 65 years old, he's ready for another "start up", in aviation of all things.

I've heard this is a real problem in Japan where these execs are workaholics and don't know their wives. When they retire and actually get to know the person they've married, there's lots of divorces filed by either the husband or the wife. That being said, I don't think that is the case here. I'd just love to know what Peter and Vern disagreed about that resulted in him leaving.

airtaximan said...

I can almost see the powerpoint slides:


HERE'S the parts cost, based on servicing 260 planes or so...

AND

HERE's the parts cost if we were back in production making lots of planes again.

See how the curves look, the cost can be less than half, if can produce just 4500 or 500 jets per year.

E-V-E-N-T-U-A-L-L-Y, WE WILL BE ABLE TO GET BACK TO jETINCOMPLETE SUPPORT, AND SELL EVEN more PLANES, AND THE CLIENTS WILL BE HAPPY, BECASUE THE SUPPORT COST CAN COME DOWN BY HALF.

We can show 200 planes per year production in year-3 and have all this supported by profits from maintenance and support - then we can do the IPO, and a multiple of.....


By then, he'll be ready to retire and see the world with his wife AGAIN - he'll be approaching 70.

airtaximan said...

Dave,

its clear to me, Reed saw the writing on the wall, and bailed becasue he knew it was a sh^% Storm from then on.

Which it really was. Nothing good happend since he left, it was just a slow progression to where we are now.

So, he bailed... and why not?

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

Any Supply Chain professionals from the former Eclipse open to contract work let me know. I have been alerted to a 3 month gig in the Northeast. Apparently looking for ERP experience.

ColdWetMack@gmail.com

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

ATM,

Reed can probably just dust off the old slides, you know from when he helped to raise 'more than $600M' and from when Eclipse 1.0 called for progress payments from over 600 folks who are now out an estimated $300M.

Unbelievable and I will say this, anyone who involves themselves with the concept for EAC 2.0 will get EXACTLY what they deserve.

My advice, stock up on Vaseline and take stock in Chesebrough Ponds USA, part of the Unilever family (ticker: UN).

airsafetyman said...

"See how the curves look, the cost can be less than half, if can produce just 4500 or 500 jets per year."

This task definitely requires a newly-minted Harvard MBA, or maybe a Wharton graduate. The concepts here are just too esoteric and complicated for mere integrity, experience, and common sense to have any application.

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Never heard about this before, but it might explain a few things....

from the March 2009 issue of Business & Commercial Aviation. (Pg 16)

ETRIC's Eclipse Aviation acquisition may have hit a snag. Sources close to the auction process say the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS), an interagency entity chaired by the U.S. Treasury Department, is investigating the acquisition of Eclipse assets by Netherlands-based ETRIC and its chief executive Roel Piper. The focus of such an investigation could be the transfer of Eclipse's manufacturing technology such as friction stir welding, as well as techniques, tools and software that might be applied to Russian military aircraft manufacturing...

Niner Zulu said...

I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction:

No new Eclipse jets will be built ever again. The existing fleet is ALL that there is, or ever will be.

Knowing that - seeing what really IS might lend some clarity and perspective as to what needs to be done next by the owners to keep the existing fleet flying, if that is even possible. No one is going to ante up enough cash to save the aircraft because there just isn't enough money out there to do it, and not enough money to be made even if there were.

Keeping the fleet flying is the ONLY priority for owners now. Whatever the cost, it's better than the alternative (spelled BOAT ANCHOR).

ColdWetMackarelofReality said...

That's not a limb 9Z, it is a redwood.

airtaximan said...

ASman,

Precisely, dazzle'm with Bullshit, and obfuscate the FACTS.

9Z, is right on the money, and that is just because of one simple fact - there is NO GOOD reason to EVER try to make these planes once again. NONE.

There are alternatives
There are/will be better alternatives

No one "needs" one of these funky contraptions, that's for damn sure

Chances are, if you "want" one, there's a viable alternative or one coming in a reasonable timeframe at around the same price or less.

No good reason to continue blowing the money... no IPO, no air taxi market, no other large market, no scale, no real tech advantage, NOTHING of real value here.

Move along.

Shane Price said...

Watch out, Roel's about

After weeks of searching, I'm proud that the blog has finally traced Roel.

Maybe, just maybe, he'll turn up tomorrow, with the money.

Stranger things have happened. This is, after all, Eclipse...

Shane

airtaximan said...

Shane, nice to know they have apparently ebgun discussions regarding some of the money RiP promised to deliver a long time ago.

Baron95 said...

Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Uzbekistan...insert one or two more "broke" states...I think the real factory will end up being in Afghanistan, with the money provided by US taxpayers as part of the rebuilding effort.

First mission will be flying "processed" flower seeds flying around the mountain passes with all avionics off.

AvidPilot said...

Shane found Roel.

I can top that...I found Ken, and he's finally facing reality.

Ken, written and performed by Ken

bill e. goat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bill e. goat said...

AvidPilot,
Thanks for the link on Youtube (
"Stan Boreson - I Just Don't Look Good Naked Anymore".

But I think that's Wedge's line.

(From the play, "The Emperor has no Clues, or Clothes Either").

bill e. goat said...

Well,
Heh- heh- heh.
RP's fiendish scheme is about to come to fruition with Eclipse, it seems.
Heh-heh-heh.
Bwa-ha-ha-ha.
----------------------------------

Actually...I figured with no other bids, there was no incentive for RP to hurry- might as well shop around for the best interest rate- who cares if it takes some extra time.

And, as a matter of fact...with no other bids, there was no incentive to continue with Ch 11.

Why not go Ch 7, and get it for even less. The Ch 11 posturing and motions all seemed proper and good: the press, employees, investors, customers all ate it up.

While RP wrung his hands and smiled- sometimes his eyes sparkled as he quietly giggled with fiendish delight, in a deep dark cave.

Studying...
Watching...
Waiting...

And NOW- Ka-Powie !!
---------------------------------

I figured RP could have come up with the buckaroos, about any time he really needed to- for chapter 11 execution. It was just a matter of how bad he needed it, and what it would cost to borrow it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but now RP can:

1) ditch the $28M,
2) and the $168M in promises, and
3) now get Ecorpse for whatever it takes to outbid some bit players.

(Ethical bit players, but...bit players).

The investors are beat down by now- they'll take about 0 cash and a boatload of promises; a free lifetime supply of twinkies plus 3.141 $B in options in RP's amusement park, or some other pi-in-the-ski "equity" scheme.

The customers are going to go with the Big Dog on this one- I would too.

In the long run, it's the best hope they have.

(And, for the employees too- half of them or so anyway. And for the investors- although about all they'll be getting is twinkies. Better than nothing though, which is essentially what their other options will amount to).
---------------------------------

I must say- I'm a bit refreshed by all of this: it confirms my original belief in RP's intentions, and my, ah, "admiration", for his "business accumin".

I gotta say- he's sharp.
SERIOUSLY sharp.
Unlike our rather dull Wedge.
:)

bill e. goat said...

Good work on the scoop- again!!- Shane.

(It's getting so strange, that strange is starting to seem...normal :)

Niner Zulu said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Niner Zulu said...

New ad in Controller today:

S/N: 186, N224ZQ, 0 TT, 0 SNEW / 0 SNEW, IFR, Never used, stored in New Mexico, ready for immediate delivery, price just reduced to $900,000 two available at this price , 2008 Paint, 2008 Int , 6 Seats

You know, if I thought there was any possibility that the bugs would be worked out of the EA500 and that it had a future, even I would buy one at that price.

flyboymark said...

Shane,
Did you know that article was 2/3/09?

Kinda dated?

flyboymark said...

9rZ,

Maybe they're broke and AOG? Delivery can be by tug to your hanger in N.M. 'Course they could be flown VFR maybe?

FreedomsJamtarts said...

Roel is obviously as stupid as Wedge. I have been telling them for years that that the need Paris Hilton or Hugo Chavez on board.

The Ukraine is just about BK itself.

S/N 186. Never been flown and only $900K!

Where is Ken when you need him? I, for one, would love to hear his spin on this!

In the ad they forgot to mention 2008 (Nov) NavDB. Soon that will be considered a feature.

They list "two available at that price".

How are the AOG stats coming along Stan? From the 260 "completed" (TM Ecorpse), delivered A/C, how many really saw any significant service?

airsafetyman said...

"Shane,
Did you know that article was 2/3/09?

Kinda dated?"

In parts of Euroland they put the day of the month first. An earlier article on the site is listed as 27/2/09 which indicates the article on the Roelster was written on March 2, 2009.

Dave said...

Kinda dated?

Actually the implications would be far worse if this happened in the beginning of February rather than the beginning of March.

fred said...

Ukraine ? ....
Ukrai ....what ...?


Freedom , you 'are absolutely RIGHT , this country is supposed to declare BK at the end of this month or in the next ...

since the CIA's sponsored Orange revolution , the country goes from bad to even worse ...

the 2 champions of democracy funded with alphabet-letters-agency (other word for US-tax-payers-money) revealed themselves as being worth less than dung ...

one is not anything else than trying to disturb the other one , the second does exactly the same ...!

this saga is becoming more and more hilarious !!! ;-)

fred said...

Baron :
if in your list you add 2 other broke countries ...

i would suggest :

1° USA
2° United Kingdom


then the list could be some kind of complete ...:-) !

fred said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fred said...

ASM :

bravo !

yes , the date 02/03/09 means in E.U. the second of March ...

as far as i know , the only place where they use the same than USA is in Great-Britain ...

i would believe that almost all world (not being anglo-saxon ) is using the European way ..

Deep Blue said...

"New ad in Controller today:

S/N: 186, N224ZQ, 0 TT, 0 SNEW / 0 SNEW, IFR, Never used, stored in New Mexico, ready for immediate delivery, price just reduced to $900,000 two available at this price , 2008 Paint, 2008 Int , 6 Seats"

Wasn't that about the original fly away price for the E500 back in 2000 tta got everyone so excited? And who said markets don't work!

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